How the fudge can you defeat long spears?? It cannot be done!!

>>54580882
Throw more bodies at them.

>>54580882
An even longer spear.

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>>54580882

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>>54580882

hahahaha how the fuck are spears real hahahaha Nigga just shoot them like Nigga just stand far away hahahahaha

>>54580916
This or bring more dakka

wizards are superior

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>>54580921
Or this combo. Just ride circles arould their asses.

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>>54580921
>not waving the long spear left and right so the arrows can't reach you

>>54580882
Send in the Horse Archers!

Outrange them with actual ranged weapon, outmaneuver them (works especially well in difficult terrain) so they can't keep formation or are attacked from a flank, or send a bunch of guys with zweihanders to hack the pikes to splinters.

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Cannons. Muskets. Black powder weapons.

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>>54580882

Field cannons, smaller and more nimble than the old ones.

>>54580952

What if they have musketeers?

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Don't send the pikemen alone.

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>>54580882
That era's style of warfare is called "pike and shot" for a reason.

>>54581128
It's also boring as shit

>>54581138
Only if you're a pikeman.

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>>54581138

Not if you find yourself into a push of pike.

Did the Russians and Poles ever adopted the Tercio? I've heard that their formations were much more offensive-oriented due the more open terrain.

>>54581138
What are you, gay?

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>>54580882
Chop chop! Wood no match for steel!

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With pic related.

>>54581168
It was called bad war for a reason. It's dangerous, bloody and boring.

>>54580882
Fieldworks so they can't be utilized well, wagonforts, use chariots or elephants backed by light infantry to exploit openings and break their lines.

Use staggered infantry to break up their lines, slowly cause their formations to disintegrate using terrain and mimble groups.

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>>54581179
>you will never be a Muscovite infantryman shooting at Kievaniggers before rushing in and chopping them with your bardiche/musket-rest.

>>54581261

War is boring, anon.

>>54581168
Who the hell would want to fight in that?

>>54581261

War is long stretches of boredom punctuated by brief moments of absolute terror

>>54581059
>Mangas
fucking weeaboos

>>54581292
It is just like a mosh pit... only no band... and rather than dodging beer cups of piss you are dodging sharp things.

>>54580882
Arrows
Pikes
Bolders

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>>54581138
Oh really?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcMCVHJkSPA

>>54581179
Russians would sound the charge at 400 meters, it's not much of a formation by the time that hits.

>>54580882
Literally no way to defeat them on the open battlefield. Retreat and try to establish a superior position where they are forced to attack your own longspears.

>>54582089
>Literally no way to defeat them on the open battlefield
If you can break their morale, you can defeat them without even touching them.
Also without orders they're just going to stand there all day (many eyewitness accounts of this happening) so if you can kill the commander or hold his attention enough to forget about a few units, you have essentially taken those units out of the fight.
Aside from that, give me 1 WW1 era machinegun and plenty of water and ammunition and I will defeat a unit of pike.

How would a pirate dress in the 15th century?

Longbows and a hill.

>>54581059
They had arquebus and muskets at the same time? I thought that one mainly replaced the other.

>>54582324

Not until cannons became lighter and more accurate, muskets lighter and better at penetrating armor and reloading, and the bayonet entered the scene. The Pike and shot warfare dominated the battlefield before the introduction of the infantry of line, the later less vulnerable to the new an improved artillery fire.

>>54582324
Muskets are just heavier arquebuses. They did eventually supercede the arquebus as muskets got lighter.

>>54580882
Effective use of artillery. Tercios make excellent targets for cannon because they pretty much can't miss.

>>54582324

Muskets were better at penetrating armor but also slower to reload and carry around.

>>54580882
Lots of good answers in this thread. But while disciplined spears are tough to beat? They are rare. Rare as Swiss pikemen.

>>54580882
Do what the poles did and give your cavalry THE LONGEST SPEARS

>>54582438
Plenty of disciplined pikemen, the problem is they get used up in real fighting instead of kicking back as an honor guard.

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>>54582467
And yet the Swiss are still around to twirl like dancers, while those others?

Pic related.

>>54581273
I always love playing as Russia in AoE3 and going full cyka with massed streletsy and oprchinika

>>54582552
A fighting man shouldn't be proud of becoming a twirling dancer, anon.

>>54582552
Also still watching the pope with the same old halberds.

Didn't the romans beat the pikeboyz by outmaneuvering them into rocky territory and throwing javelins at them? Also: long spears need support troops, espacially cavalry to decimate pesky bowmen and such, since pikelifter were slow as fuck. If you beat the support, you beat the pikeboyz.

>>54582666

The Greek Phalanx used huge pikes, the Early Modern Pikemen were more nimble.

>>54580882
basically with long spears of your own, supported by great swords
or any kind of long range weapon (bow, crossbow, early firearms, you know what I mean)

>>54582666
Pyrrhus of Epirus repeatedly beat the Romans, but losses were high. Pyrric victory.

The Spanish gave swordsmen stout, metal round shields so they could slip under the pikes and get in close.

>>54580882

The English used two-handed Billhooks to counter pikes. cut the pike as you move in, then engage. You can actually fight well with a billhook, unlike a pike, so the individual soldier wins. By chopping the pike you force the pikeman into using his second weapon, which failed to have the length needed.

>>54584481
>The English used two-handed Billhooks to counter pikes. cut the pike as you move in, then engage
You got a source for that? I've only ever heard of bills being used to unhorse riders.

>>54580882
Artillery/siege engines. Or even longer spears.

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>>54580882
Just to add to the answers already said:

-Rocket shields.
http://greatmingmilitary.blogspot.com.br/2016/09/weaponised-shields-of-ming-dynasty.html

-The double-armed man, mixing longbow and pike into one weird combination weapon. One of the many "it's-totally-gonna-work-guys-trust-me!" moments of history.
https://books.google.com.br/books?id=jLg-AAAAYAAJ&pg=PA354&lpg=PA354&dq=double-armed+man&source=bl&ots=5D2bVojnEs&sig=6Fbx3ZLKha211GAYijXZkzzkLc0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi58fHUra7VAhUBayYKHRzeBBoQ6AEITTAK#v=onepage&q=double-armed%20man&f=false

-Pic related. Plough them dead.
http://greatmingmilitary.blogspot.com.br/2017/01/chong-di-tie-tou-che-Ming-bulldozer.html

-Heavy cavarly, seriously. The polish hussars had longer lances that could outreach foot, the crazy bastards.
>The hussar's lance was from 4.5 to 5.5. M in length. It enabled the hussar to overreach western infantry pikes ( which were always under 5 meters).
http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/lance.htm

>I am both astonished and interested that the Hussars, as it happened, were consistently able to defeat much larger foes with low losses, and suffered surprisingly low losses from the fire of squares of infantry protected by pikemen. For example at Kircholm, where about 100 Poles perished and some 200 were wounded, the losses of the Swedes are estimated at from 6 to 9 thousand men. In order to solve this riddle, several things need to be considered.
http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/HowHussarFought.htm

>How to beat stout foot with horse and "firepower"
http://l-clausewitz.livejournal.com/150862.html

https://pastebin.com/MVqh7Yi9
>Sources about cavarly warfare and related topics

https://pastebin.com/RZifh6nu
>Real Life European Dual Sword Wielding

https://pastebin.com/2jRuVQt1
>Fantasy smut should read the ancient classics

>>54580882
mounted crossbowmen

>>54580882
Greek fire

>>54584391
Which led to Cynoscephalae.

>>54580882
I read somewhere once that you have your foot soldiers equipped with shields made out of material just soft enough that the spears become embedded in them, but just solid and heavy enough that when the soldiers throw the shields down it drags the entire spear down with it.

After which your soldiers simply draw their sword, step over the now useless spear, and hack the idiots to pieces.

No idea if it would work IRL or not. But the entire concept was interesting enough that it stuck with me.

>>54582324
An arquebus is also marginally cheaper to make.

>>54582438
Beating pikemen once you're in the push is no more difficult on the basis of discipline. When you're closing or the push though, discipline keeps your ranks from faltering, and makes the enemy think twice. When you have two pike formations without shields marching towards one another its literally a game of chicken.

>>54580882
A Brief History of Longspears

>785 of the King's Reckoning:
>High Chief Rannock of the Dunei people is crowned, has a slightly longer than average spear created to commemorate his rule. Chief's guards adopt similar length spears in honour of him.

>785-867 KR:
>Following Rannock's example, successor High Chiefs have longer and longer spears created to commemorate their rule. "Longspears" become symbol of wealth and power among Dunei people.

>867-872 KR:
>Dunei Civil War. Tallkin clan emerge victorious, credit their victory to their prodigious longspears.

>872-1001 KR:
>Era of peace, High Chiefs come and go, longspears continue to grow in length.

>>54586144
>1001-1020 KR:
>High Chief Kulvin, seeking to expand his kingdom, sails across the sea with an army of 10,000 warriors, and conquers the Hereni people of North Gander. Dunei longspears are approx. 7 meters long at this point.

>1020-1045 KR:
>Intense fighting on borders of Dunei kingdoms as Ganderian lords attempt to retake their old lands. Ganderians adopt Dunei longspears, arms race ensues as both sides try to outdo each other in longspear technology. Both sides eventually adopt multi-man spears. First appearance of "siegespears", longspears long enough to stab defenders stood on castle battlements.

>1045-1046 KR:
>High Chief Kulvin is assassinated, stabbed with a poisoned longspear while riding along the banks of the Terrion River. His assassins were on the opposite bank. A succession crisis ensues, during which the Dunei's holdings in North Gander are significantly reduced.

>1046-1052 KR:
>High Chief Kulvin's nephew, Kalin, is crowned High Chief, begins epic campaign of conquest, retaking all lands lost during past year's crisis. Spends time securing territory from Ganderian counter-attack.

>1052-1055 KR:
>Kalin begins further campaign, crushing all Ganderian resistance, and uniting North and South Gander into one kingdom.

>1055-1111 KR:
>Long period of peace, Kalin secures his dominion over Gander, dies peacefully aged 37. Succession proceeds peacefully, longspears start to diminish in length, as they are no longer needed.

>>54586158
>1111-1194 KR:
>Trade with southern barbarians introduces war axes to Dunei society. Several peasant revolts occur during this period, with rebels using war axes to great effect against noble forces, hewing the heads off their longspears before they can do any damage. Dunei nobility begin to fear this new "peasant weapon", worrying what it could mean for their traditional power-base.

>1194-1200 KR:
>Worst of the revolts are finally crushed. Fears of further "Axe Revolts" assuaged when generals realise they can attach axeheads to their longspears.

>1200-1350 KR:
>Succession crisis explodes into outright civil war. Empire of Gander collapses into dozens of feuding kingdoms. Longspear arms race takes off once again. Demand for longspears starts to outpace supply - many ancient forests are cut down to support further longspear production.

>1350 KR onwards:
>Ganderian forests are totally depleted. Lumber becomes worth more than gold. Southern barbarians get rich selling lumber to Ganderian warlords. Ecosystem begins to collapse, society follows soon after. Ganderian Dark Age begins.

How to defeat long spear?? I tell you how to fucin defeat longspear ratatatatatata reloading ratatatatatata

>>54581228
>>54581260
>Muh memeskriegs >:(
You mean
>SPAIN SAVE ME, I STUCK MY COCK IN A HORNET NEST AGAIN!

>>54581754
Is it just me or does that picture look like soldiers escorting small fields of wheat?

>>54580882

Fucken ez mode

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caracole

>>54581010

GOTT MIT UNS

>>54581228
>Well, What Is It?

>>54581288
>>54581308
This only applies to basic personnel.

>>54586605
Are you autistic?

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>>54580882
lol, okay kiddo.

>>54580882
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oFz5dViy2A
Prepare for an extremely autistic explanation of how pike formations actually worked in history.

TL;DL, classical pikes aren't actually good at destroying enemies on their own, they pin enemies down so that you can run them over with cavalry.

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>>54580882
THE GUN IS GOOD

>>54581138
Line battles are boring as shit

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>>54589684
I didn't know they still made historians with alcoholism. This guy sounds like he was drinking while he gave this lecture.

>>54581138
What awful taste.

>>54589928
It's the /sos/ lead dev. If you want to hear him sober, he was on Tabletop Terrors once.

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>>54580882

These guys did alright, historically

inb4 accuracy screeching, couldnt find a picture of romans in historically proper kit for the greek conquests

>>54584823
good post, I'll be reading all this
thanks

>>54589928
historians without alcoholism aren't real historians

>>54581573
Manga is the spanish word for sleeve

>>54589876
THE PENIS IS BAD

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>>54589684
Help me burgerbros, is this guy from New York or something? The accent is barely intelligible.

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>>54589684
The guy has some good points, but I think his problem is that he's focusing on the Macedonian phalanx specifically, when Macedonians were generally known for having top tier cavalry even prior to Philip IIs reforms. He doesn't really get into the shorter spears that the Greek style phalanx used (with the Greeks having worse cavalry than the Macedonians). I'm no historical expert admittedly, but I imagine that such a Greek style phalanx would be more deserving of the steamroller reputation (assuming they could even reach the enemy, something the Macedonian phalanx made nearly impossible). After all, if Greek cavalry wasn't too good and archers don't singlehandedly win battles, what remains is infantry.

>>54581288
Agreed. We need now games about politicians intrigue and kissing boys.

>>54592145
It's not NYC, might be a suburb. He sound more west coast. I'd guess Oregon.

>>54590921
why are soem of them so depressed? they look liek they are goign on a real war.
>>54589684
i thought the fact that pixes by themselves couldn't do everything was the common opinion of hystorians?

>>54581138
FUDGE OFF

>>54581228
That didn't actually happen.

>>54592145
california
>>54592212
Archers do win battles if you pin your opponent down with pikes. I don't know if that's what the Greeks used, but it is what the Tercio was (but with guns), and it's kinda what the English did pre-pike and shot.

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>>54586810
Can't unsee now.

>>54591590
You're welcome.

>>54581754
>Horsemen running straight on the way of own sides musketmen

And then the bastards are gonna cry about friendly fire, i swear, retards never die out, no matter how many you shoot!

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>>54580969
>outmaneuver them (works especially well in difficult terrain) so they can't keep formation or are attacked from a flank

>>54582368
Line infantry didn't so much obsolete pike-and-shot formations as the latter slowly morphed into the former. The large square formations gradually widened and included more light artillery support, as firearms got more accurate and long-ranged, and eventually the pikes got weeded out slowly over time as they declined in their importance and ratio of kills.

>>54580882
Push the spears up with a barricade of shields and then use smaller spears to kill the front lines. Retreat, regroup, repeat.

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>>54580882
You get a spear that's 5 feet longer than the other guy and put it on a horse.

>>54594610
I would argue that the pike never actually disappeared and simply changed shape. A musket with attached bayonet is effectively a short-moderate spear.

>>54580882
Catapults, lots of catapults
Fire, lots of fire
Ice, lots of ice
Acid, lots of acid
Harlots, lots of harlots

>>54581010
Gustavus Adolphus, vår landsfader

>>54580953
>Tiring yourself this much before a frontal, melee assault.

>>54584823
>cavalry beat pikemen
Age of Empires lied to me!

>>54580882
Soften them up with ranged weapons and then try to flank with swords. If you get up in their asshole in CQC it's over.

Obviously easier said than done.

>>54598158
That anon is a filthy liar, the Winged Hussars were the exception that proved the rule. In Western Europe (France, Italy, Germany, England) pikes were so dominant over cavalry that it was considered suicidal for cavalry to go toe to toe with pikes unless they could flank them faster than they could form a pike square.

It basically changed the social fabric of Europe forevermore as nobles became less an intrinsic part of the military and cavalry itself lost its primacy.

It's also why you begin to see the shift from fully armoured cavalry to lighter, more manoeuvrable troops such as reiters, uhlans, hussars and cuirassiers capable of ambushes, hitting vulnerable points in an enemy lines such as field guns and exploiting weaknesses in an enemy's main battle line.

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>>54582576
my kind of play style.

>>54580882
Something other than a frontal cavalry charge.

>>54582616
Halberds and Sub Machine Guns.

Despite their poofy pants and archaic parade weapons the Swiss Guard are still a fully functional paramilitary police force, formed by veterans of the Swiss Service. Supposedly they're very good at policing, interrogation, and anti-terrorism operations.

Not sure if they still train with the Halberds though. Probably.

>>54598158
>>54598696
Cavalry beat FLANKED pike-men, which is why the pike and shot block formation came to dominate - it allowed pike infantry to cover all four sides, while the missle troops in the middle could return fire at skirmishers and shoot down charging infantry. This is what led to the arms race in guns and cannons, as these suddenly became the best way to bust these formations if you couldn't catch your enemy with his pants down.

In Warhammer: Total War, can Imperial gunners shoot OVER infantry lines, or do I need to use crossbows for that? It never occurred to me to use spear squares

A bit of oil and flame would work wonders for a formation that requires such a tight packed formation.

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Guns

>>54581048
Then you bring cannons.

>>54584890

They were wood shields, soaked in water overnight. Heavy but any weapon that hit the wet shield got stuck in the wood. It was very difficult to pull it out. The downside is that the shield would eventually become to heavy to use and would have to be dropped.

>>54599840
Carcass
An incendiary/antipersonnel projectile designed to burn fiercely and produce poisonous fumes. It was constructed of an iron frame bound with sack cloth and filled with various ingredients such as pitch, antimony, sulfur, saltpeter, tallow and Venetian turpentine. It was ignited by the cannon's propellant charge, bursting on impact with the target and releasing noxious fumes while setting fire to its surroundings. It was effectively an early chemical weapon as well as an incendiary and area denial weapon. The name is possibly a reference to the medieval practice of hurling dead animals from trebuchet as a form of biological warfare, or to the projectile's superficial resemblance to a human carcass.

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>>54586810
900 pikemen all standing together with their pikes up probably do look like a field of wheat

>>54580949
This was a successfully comedic use of spoiler formatting.

>>54586810
Maybe they are.

Zweihanders

>>54600640
>stabbed before he gets close
I don't think that's going to help anon

>>54600640
You know the whole zweihanders breaking pikes thing is a meme yeah?

>>54580882
full armor and zweihänder.
this was actually done

>>54580882
If it couldn't be done we'd still be using them...

>>54580953
That would not work at all, even a little bit. Arrows travel much faster than you can wiggle a stick, and they'd be coming in volleys.

>>54603125
just use the force

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>>54580882
precursor javelins
big shields
uneven terrain
supreme latin genetics

>>54602806
And didn't work very well, hence Spain, France and even the Netherlands and Sweden being bigger powers than the HRE, which destroyed itself half way through anyway, in the 16&17C.

Medium (armored) horse archer actually do okay against pike.

Shoot what can't reach you (pike), and ride down all that can outshoot you (shot/cannon). Gank those that can catch you and outfight you (heavy cavalry).

Given enough number, they actually do okay against pretty much everything. And given the mobility, they can concentrate the force where it is needed, so THEY WILL HAVE ENOUGH NUMBER.

>>54580882
Short swords anon they did it by using their own long spears and giving those long spearmen short swords to cut up the others teams long spears.

>>54603540
HRE wasn't weaker because of using doppelsoldners, they were weak because of political infighting.

>>54598158
Actually, knights beat pikemen and paladins beat halberdiers. The pikes and halbs just win out in the long term because they're so much cheaper to produce. Age of Empires is proven a credible source once again! Unless we're talking about scimitar-throwing, camel-riding mamelukes

>>54582576
I like you Anon. Not enough people remember AoE3 fondly.

>>54584617
Battle of Flodden. English vs Scots, the English Bills do this. "the bills disappointed the Scots of their long spears, on which they relied." England had very few infantry battles during the era of Pike and Shot, but when they did, they preferred the Bill over the pike.

>>54603651
Or turtle ships that travel as fast as wind powered warships.

>>54603665
i was a scrub who played ottomans and only janissary rushed

>>54580882
You hurl trees into the formation.

Works pretty fucking well.

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>>54595068
>charging a pike line
>on a horse

oh no baby what is you doing

>>54603705
That game had some of the most enjoyable naval combat in an rts.

>>54600806
>>54601176

>When pike formation fought pike formation, the two-hand sword was used to break the pikes of the opposing force
Hank Reinhardt, The Book of Swords, Baen Books 2009

>Soldiers with two-handed broadswords served a similar purpose, namely breaking the pikes of the opponent with powerful blows
Olaf van Nimwegen, The Dutch Army and the Military Revolutions 1588-1688, Woodbridge 2010

And the unavoidable Schola Gladiatora video which takes a more critical view:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oxsol6J1HLU

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Whatever happens, we have got
The Maxim Gun, and they have not.

>>54600006
>hey saxony, how many layers of protestantism are on you right now
>about two or three, my dude
>you are like little papist, watch this
>COMBINED ARMS

>>54603885
Get your facts straight. Winged Hussars pwned pikemen, especially swedish ones.

>>54604309
Hey remember when you said prots welcome, and then they turned up, repeatedly defeated you on the battlefield, killed a third of your population, stole all your gold and then went home to deal with Denmark and you decided to end your decrees of religous freedom, but it didn't matter because you got partitioned anyway? That was some pretty good pwning you did back then.

Force them into an offensive attack against Swordsmen, with archers softening them up before they hit the Swordsmen.

>>54604638

>t. raging pikecuck

>>54604309
>Winged Hussars pwned pikemen, especially swedish ones.
You almost sound English.
>muh longbowmen killed knights!
>where is the proof?
>muh bodkin!

>>54582666
Ranged weapons don't really do much against Macedonian pikemen, it's better to simply find gaps in their formation or outflank them.

>>54592212
Macedon had a distinct lack of nobility to serve as cavalrymen after Alexander since so many went east to serve the Ptolemies or Seleucids. No formation could match the Macedonian phalanx in a straight fight which is why the Greek cities adopted pikes or lighter equipment like the thureos and javelins. The Thessalians and Aetolians were both greek peoples and known for their crack cavalry across the Mediterranean so the idea that Greek cavalry wasn't good isn't really true. Archery wasn't really a winner when it came to battles, you'd need skirmishers but just as a supporting element.

>>54603511
I believe your image is supposed to be Magnesia, not Pydna. A Macedonian sarisa could also easily pierce the Roman scutum while ranged weapons were not particulary effective.

>>54603125
They come in volleys, we have fifty men shaking their sticks back and forth.

While we're talking about it, has anyone played any good pike & shot games? I've tried Pikeman's Lament, which is fun and light but a bit swingy. Pike & Shotte seems neat, but a lot heavier rules.

Boardgame wise Here I Stand seems cool, if abstract. Are there any decent/interesting hex and chit games for the period?

>>54604274
actually lol'd outloud

>>54603125
Are you legitimately retarded?

This was an actual tactic used by pikes to defeat archers. Not only are pikemen well armored, but the sheer mass of pikes actually acts like a shield as they bounce off a large portion of incoming shots.

>>54605948
>where is proof
>fucking mountain of ottoman corpses and lopsided victory rate

>>54580916
On a horse

>>54607873
The new Swedes hadn't arrived back then, Sweden didn't have any roaches.

>>54586810
If you enchant the wheat to harvest itself then you can conscript more peasants to lug around pikes in nice squares instead of having them waste their time harvesting.

>>54591658
I thought it was tanga. Or was that a different kind sleeve?

>>54604309
Okay I seriously doubted that hussars, winged or otherwise, could take on pike and shot, but I just looked up the Battle of Kirchholm and *damn*.

File: the_winged_horsemen_by_rufus_jr.jpg (610KB, 1600x1022px) Image search: [Google]

610KB, 1600x1022px

>>54580882
THEN THE WINGED HUSSARDS ARRIVED!

>>54603125
Then you aren't waggeling your wood hard enough.