Northern barbarians

>>54566950
Literally the Mongols: Cold Edition dude.

The usual explanation is "The northmen were tribes that fought each other but then Some Dude united them under his banner to invade the prosperous south."

Pretty sure there is a laundry list of examples of shit similar to this happening in actual history.

>>54566950

Size matters. Specifically in this case the size of the landmass these frozen invaders come from. Please not that the lands north of the wall on the map are the same damn size as the whole seven kingdoms. There are fewer people there that there are in the seven kingdoms, but I think it is not entirely unreasonable for the concentrated population of a landmass of that size to be large enough to equal the armies of one of said kingdoms, each of which shat out armies of the size of the wildling host like there was no tomorrow.

As to the trope in general the "frozen north" isn't usually all that frozen. Less temperate than the southern climes, but habitable, and generally speaking a larger geographic area.

Funny you mention rome. Germanic hordes ring any bells?

See also Russians, multitude thereof.

>>54566950
>For instance was there ever a good explanation for the wildlings in game of thrones to have amassed such a great army despite most of their land being a complete icy shithole?
Because the North beyond the Wall is fucking XBOXHUEG. Also because they were bringing literally every wildling who wanted to live.

>>54566950
The barren wastelands are a buffer zone presumably created by a wizard and there is a far more fertile land after it.
The horde is simply a gathering of the armies of various lords who were trained in ice survival in order to move en masse to attack their neighbours in some form of invasion or crusade.

They now urgently need to capture supplies as the supply line from their home country across the ice is erratic at best and explains their plundering. Their 'tribal' affiliations are actually a more civilised duty to the respective force's lord back home. There is no wolf clan, but instead House Bleak, whose coat-of-arms features a dog.
Their ragged appearance is because the trip across the ice is dangerous and they didn't want to risk trying to carry more than they would need and thus still wear pieces of their cold survival gear.

>>54566950
>this trope is stupid
How? Huge, dangerous armies from the north-ish constantly attacked the Romans for centuries. In the later years of the empire, they would rampage through on a yearly basis robbing and burning everything they saw, and even sacked Rome at one point. In the middle ages, Europe was invaded by the Mongols, who were the most destructive manmade event in history up until world war two.

So, if it happened over and over throughout most of recorded history to numerous western civilizations, and was often a deadly event killing hundreds of thousands of people, why would it be stupid for that to be a theme in literature? You may as well say that plague is a stupid trope.

>>54567009
>>54567011
Historically the population density of these places were so small that they were basically a non-issue. Canada and Russia today both have a larger landmass than the USA, yet the US has more population. You can't attribute this to landmass alone.
>Funny you mention rome. Germanic hordes ring any bells?
Contributing the fall of rome to germanic hordes is a gross oversimplification and a historian would probably slap your for it.

>>54567095
The german tribes were mostly, as far as I know but please correct me if I'm wrong, small raiding parties, not huge armies clashing with roman armies that come in inferior numbers. Mongolia is an entirely different climate with cold winters, but also hot summers.

>>54567168
At which point the historian would be disinvited from attending any games.
Seriously, if the physician can play and not sperg out about hit points, then every asshole who minored in history and read 'Guns, Germs, and Steel' once can shut the fuck up about muh resources, or can go and try to start their own game. Oh wait, you can't. Because nobody likes you.

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>>54567208
Hit points are a gameplay abstraction, millions of northern barbarians are recurring narrative trope in fiction. Please anon, just try to have a little bit of fun complaining about /tg/ related shit or talking about history.

South: population - 20, army - 10% of population
North: population - 5, army - 50% of population

simple

>>54567268
>millions of northern barbarians are recurring narrative trope in fiction

-Sarmatians and other steppe nomads had been raiding the Greeks and Persians for centuries
-Celts (northern barbarians!) burned down Rome under Brennus
-The Romans built a wall in scotland to keep the Northern barbarians (picts) out.
-The Romans built a huge network of forts along the rhine to keep barbarians out. (Franks, Chatti, Cheruski, Marcomanni)
-The Romans built a network of walls and forts in northern africa to keep the (southern) barbarians out. (Masagatea, Gaetulians, Garamantes)
-The Sassanids built a huge wall (gorgan wall) to keep the Northern Barbarians (Sarmatians, White Huns, Hungarians) out
-Chinese were in constant trouble with northern barbarians, lets just list a few of the groups that attacked them that were pretty big
(Xiong-nu, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Barbarians these guys, Huns, White Huns)
these guys (which the Xiognu were a part of)
-Vikings are northern barbarians aswell
-Oh I forgot to list the mongols when talking about china but they also fucked up the rest of Eurasia pretty bad


Barbarians fucking shit up with huge armies is not only a pretty common fictional trope, its also a historical trope.

>>54567811
Most of these don't come from frozen northlands, except more or less the vikings. Which often got defeated if they weren't raiding defenseless churches. Again small raiding parties. This thread is lacking reading comprehension.

>>54566950

What about Attila and the Huns?

>>54567871
It doesn't have to be an objectively frozen Northland. Just subjectively colder and more frozen than the Southlanders can cope with.

>>54567871

they weren't small raiding parties, harald hardrada invaded the shit out of england with a very large army, the reason he lost to king harold godwinson is because godwinson was an actual competent military commander

>>54567871
The steppes can get pretty cold in winter buddy. Also if you look at the Romans, the germanic north would be a frozen wasteland to them. They weren't used to those temperatures.

So most of those fall under cold wasteland.

Also the north of Westeros was a lot milder before the others started comming.

>>54567909
>Just subjectively colder and more frozen than the Southlanders can cope with
Don't think that the land beyond the wall is just a bit subjectively colder and more frozen.

>>54567929
>they weren't small raiding parties
They were mostly just pirates and not a horde of 1000000000 soldiers storming the decadent europe.

>>54567933
>The steppes can get pretty cold in winter buddy
And they are hot in the summer. There is also a shit of grass growing in the steppes that makes it possible to sustain numbers. They are not comparable to the OP.
>the germanic north would be a frozen wasteland to them
No, it would be seemingly endless and dark forests with occasionally good soil to have agriculture, and many swamps. Subjectively colder, but not a desert of ice.
>Also the north of Westeros was a lot milder before the others started comming
This is the only explanation that makes sense so far.

Honestly I feel a bit baited.

>>54566950

GoT background is just stupid. In this world people are well aware what happened 12000 years ago. Its not legend or myth but common knowledge treated like well established history.

>>54568031

Their history game is on point.

Or maybe they are just more trusting?

>>54568005
Well firstly the total army of wildlings was thought to be 100.000. That includes non combatants. Hardly a million, but that's just semantics.

Also the North isn't a frozen wasteland. The lands of always winter are, but there are places in the north (valley of the thenns) that are very mild. They even managed to build a city there.

>>54568031
Maybe people start treating legend and myth as history if people don't know enough history

>>54568031
It's almost like people start making shit up and treating it as reality when they don't know their real origins.

>>54567933
>Also if you look at the Romans, the germanic north would be a frozen wasteland to them. They weren't used to those temperatures.

Also, the Earth was colder at that time.
The Danube and Rhine tended to freeze every year.

>>54566950
>Northern Barbarians
It's rooted in history, with events like the Dorian Migration, Cellic invasions, Germanic Migrations, and regular invasions from the Steppes. This is then translated into (and exaggerated by) our literature

>aSoIaF/GoT
The wildlings are usually not much of a threat. It's only because the 7 kingdoms is disunited, the North devestated, and the Night's Watch undermanned that they are even a moderate threat.
Additional, Westeros seasons don't follow earth ones. Summers and Winters are long, and one would imagine that long summers would allow for population booms before winter culls people. The Wildling invasion during the period of the books takes place after a historically long summer, which would have allowed for a massive boom in the Wildling population

>>54566950
>The frozen northern wasteland isnnt actually a frozen wasteland
>The settings romans are just huge pussies and desertfuckers
>Its quite sustainable and pretty warm in the summer

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>>54566950
>romans
>civilized

>>54567871
>which often got defeated if they weren't raiding defenseless churches
England was conquered twice, almost thrice, by them, a fest only bested by the Normans, a bunch of French-speaking Vikings

>>54568466
Feat*

>>54567095
>Europe was invaded by the Mongols, who were the most destructive manmade event in history up until world war two.
I'm not so sure. I've read that the most destructive manmade event in history was the 30-year-war. We're talking about people in the 17th century causing 8 million deaths. That's just 3 million deaths short of the Holocaust. With only swords, pikes, flintlock firearms and famine.

>>54568466
They also conquered huge parts of Ireland, the Baltics, Novgorod, Italy, Sicily, the Netherlands, France, Scotland and Germany.

>>54568490
The three kingdoms war caused about 40.000.000 casualties, around 200 AD

ITT OP is butthurt that no-one can provide a historic example to the scale of the obvious (and extreme) literary exaggeration of actual historic themes

Nothing in game of thrones is historically accurate.. what other fictions are you talking about where an army comes from a frozen wasteland that couldn't support it?

>>54568509
>>54568490
It could ofcourse be reasoned that the mongols were to blame for the black death.

The black death killed 200 million, 50 million in Europe.

>>54568529
Warcraft?

>>54568538

Ah yes another example that's is purely based on historical truths..

So that's 2 fictions compared to the countless real world examples people have given.. I don't see the complaint here

>>54568529
This is more about internal logic than historical accuracy. The historical examples were just examples to

>>54568509
Well, I assume the Three Kingdoms had a large population?

The 30 Year War killed off 20% of the German population on average IIRC.

>>54568568
Hey I am >>54567811 in this thread. I just gave an example of some work of fiction.


Also Raymond Feists Darkness at Sethanon

>>54568593
Three Kingdoms killed of 40 to 60%

China isn't fair though. It has conflicts that kill of as many people as world war II before rifles were invented.

China crazy.

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>>54568616
See that dropoff after Han?

Thats the three kingdoms.

>Northern cities survive off troll meat
>Tie up a Troll, chop off it's leg, you got 300+ lbs of meat right there
>Troll regrows leg in a few days, repeat
>This has the side effect of giving Northerners a diet LOADED with Protien, meaning they're naturally swole and can digest nearly anything because you need to have a tough gut to digest troll meat

There you go.

>>54568641
The troll would need protein and shit too if it's to regrow its leg

>>54568639
It's gonna be weird playing Dynasty Warriors 9 and thinking about how the amount of people I'm killing is an underestimation.

>>54566950
The problem is that all those people are the fighters not just the fighters. That's why their armies are so big.

2/10

>>54568490
Don't forget the secret ingredient: certainty in the divine righteousness of the atrocities.

>>54567168

Russia is not a frozen hellhole.

>>54568509

Three kingdoms is not a single war. It is many wars mixtured with truces and periods of peace spanning over a 100 years. 30 years wars was nonstop and infamous for Not ending to the point that to mantain your army it was cheaper to keep the war o and loot all the time.

>>54568696
>The troll would need protein and shit too if it's to regrow its leg
Trolls in D&D explicitly regenerate spontaneously through magic without having to take any actions.

>hurr I wasn't talking about D&D

Too bad.

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the land beyond the wall used to be warmer and more fertile. the reason they're heading south is because it's becoming so inhospitable. as other people have noted, it's a very large area and their societies are highly militarized, with even women fighting.

also, the show typically portrays north of the wall as a barren wasteland when it's actually mostly forest.

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>>54566950
-Migrations brought by climate changes. The army isn't that big, but the whole confederation of tribes is, and the percentage of warriors is much larger than in civilized peoples. That's based on the Cimbri, which even had berserkers and worshipped Wodan.

-Frozen wastelands could sustain larger numbers if people there mined coal, built with stone/ice/pykrete and had cactus-like crops grown in trenches and low stone walls to make microclimates. It could kinda look the labyrinths of 17th century parisian urban farming or the portuguese vineyards in pic. Kudos if their source of liquid water are "Blood Snow" cisterns based on Chlamydomonas nivalis colonies. Welcome to Hyperborea I guess.

-Nomad armies have lower total numbers, but they can bring them together faster than settled peoples. Every warrior having four or five moose mounts is a huge strategic advantage.

>>54569274
Which was also pretty right fucked When the Cold Came, whether it was in the form of White Worm, or White Sybil.

Or you know, just a boring old glacier, although the Worm is pretty metal in terms of how everything. freezes.

>>54567929
>Harald Hardrada was incompetent
Is this what you are implying? The guy served for more than a decade as a foreign mercenary for the Byzantines and the Russians, he was exiled from his home at 15 and spent the next 10+ years fighting for money and gaining fame and wealth. If anything the Godwinson family were the incompetent ones, they were basically granted their position and used their wealth to advance in Saxon England.

>>54567168
>as far as I know but please correct me if I'm wrong
you're wrong. The Vandal migration through spain and north africa was close to a hundred thousand strong. The Ostrogoths and Visigoths brought similar numbers, and the other great tribes that attacked the Roman Empire during the age of migrations, like the Huns, Alans, Avars, etc, etc, all numbered in that sort of range. Not every tribe had those numbers, and unless they were intending to migrate through Roman territory en masse then war bands of 10-20k were more common. But a barbarian army a hundred thousand strong certainly isn't unreasonable.

In the later period of the migrations, we have the example of the battle of Levounion the 11th century, where the Byzantine Emperor put together a force of 20,000 Byzantines and 40,000 barbarian allies to deal with an invading force of 80,000 Pechenegs coming down from the steppes.

The migrations in late antiquity in total numbered less than a million people, compared to the population of the Roman Empire which was about 40 million at that point. But settled, civilised cultures which use professional armies only field a fraction of their population during warfare, whereas in barbarian tribes every male who can hold a weapon fights. So it was common for Roman armies of 20-30k to face barbarian armies of 20-40k

Likewise in game of thrones the population of the seven kingdoms numbers at least several million, whereas the total population of the wilding tribes seems to be about 150,000. Westeros is a continent-sized version of the British isles, so the seven kingdoms might even have tens of millions, given that the population of England in the middle ages was about 4 million.

>Contributing the fall of rome to germanic hordes is a gross oversimplification
And that sentence is a gross offence against the English language. And it's not a /gross/ oversimplification. Its a slight oversimplification that basically gets the main point across.

>>54567168
No sorry dude, the Germanic tribes numbered in the many thousands and for nearly all of Rome's history represented a gigantic threat- so much so that the Rhine was fortified constantly- Caesar himself said that it was incredibly fortunate the germans were like children in their ambitions, as if they had united and gone against Rome it would have been the end

>>54569210
The real question is how do they survive winter? Yes the land during the summer years is more fertile, but they still experience the longest winters on the continent and don't have the organization/infrastructure to store years worth of food or construct greenhouses, with a possible exception for the Thenns

>>54569390
Mostly because he got a pyrrhic victory against them once. Gotta tell everyone they were totally brutal, so it's ok to lose so many men.

>>54569430
it probably fucks them up pretty badly. presumably the survivors have to subsist in the manner of real arctic hunter-gatherers. if the previous winter was short then maybe their population is at a relative high at the time of the series.

admittedly, the long seasons are an interesting element of the series but not one that makes a great deal of sense.

>>54569430
The answer is its impossible. The author is a hack.

>>54568929
Generally true, but depends on what specific place you're talking about

Also, lands beyond the Wall from ASOIAF aren't frozen over in the summer either

>>54569322
Pretty much this. I recall a battle he won where he was outnumbered 2 to 1, plus he captured like 80 fortified cities throughout his life. He's sorely underestimated as a military commander because of Stamford Bridge

>>54569380
It is a gross oversimplification. The roman empire fell with the conquest of Theodoro around 1460.

The western part fell mostly because of corruption and economic reasons. The federati tribes doing their own stuff was more of a symptom.

>>54566950
Most GoT stuff is ripped from history, the wall and wildlings is basically the wars between Rome and the Picts. (Hadrian's) Wall, even though it's a few hundred feet high instead of like, 10 feet.

>>54568639
The fuck is wrong with that scale.

>>54569477
I think he had good reason to concerned, in his diaries he points out multiple times the germans had ravaged the alpine regions of italy- Caesar little reason to lie or else if Germany was weak he would have known he could conquer it

>how would you make this work
Is magic a viable option.

>>54569430
>but they still experience the longest winters on the continent and don't have the organization/infrastructure to store years worth of food or construct greenhouses, with a possible exception for the Thenns
Mammoths, whales, mooses, seals.

>>54566950
The worst thing about GoT is that you can feel Martin was all "look at muh historical realism this is da real world kiddo" and anyone who doesn't have a fucking pleb's understanding of history can discredit the whole thing instantly. Politics and intrigue are OK I guess but the modelling of economies and technology is utter shit. Also the portrayal of religion is stupid, too.

>>54569746
You do realise that the realism in GoT that you complain about is just the first level.

GoT isn't about historical realism in a fantasy universe. GoT is about sending a fantasy universe through the renaissance, about the fall of the old nobility, and rise of new nobility, about the death of the feudal system, renewed interest in Antiquity and the awakening of royal/national consciousness.

>>54569746
So what were Robert's tax reforms
>>54569939
>dude valerians being there is like renaissance WEWUZ romans
>fall of old nobility
They didn't die in suicidal wars though, and the new nobility IRL just married the old and then got in power through merit or winning the civil war because the starting sides are too weak
>death of the feudal system
Which was caused by the reallocation of land, which isn't happening because Jon is more retarded than Sansa, somehow
It's more like the Ottoman Empire and the exiled Pageilos winning favour in European courts

>>54566950
Jotun will fuck you up senpai.

>>54566950
Hmm...
Well, for my money I don't really like the show's portrayal of beyond-the-wall as literally frozen steppe forever. I'd prefer to think of it as being like Alaska: warm summers, long, snowy winters, with the farther reaches being the only place that looks like your pic 24/7. I recall there being lots of forest land north of the wall, maybe in high summer it's actually not too horrid to live there.
Anyway, assume that the population is sparse, but the land mass is huge. Changing conditions drive all the tribes together, so suddenly you have a group of people that used to be spread out over a sub-continent now living pretty tightly packed together. This isn't sustainable, hence why they're basically migrating/on the warpath.
The million-strong barbarian horde is a temporary phenomenon, it's either going to crush civilized outposts and disperse, integrate with the civilized people, or everyone's going to starve... which is actually more-or-less the challenge that faced real life groups like the Goths and the Vandals.

Doesnt Jhon said that the wildling invasions always fail? Also, this isnt a normal raid, this is the entkre population, all the warriors and their families running away in a desperate march to the south.

>>54568981
You are thinking of the Spring and Autumn period or the Warring states. Three kingdoms lasted less then a century.

And while the 30 years war was a long war, the war shifted heavily from the south to the north. There was no continuous front and the Bohemian phase saw fighting in different spots then the Swedish or the French phase.

>>54568509
Heavily inflated numbers, as per usual.

>>54570811
China had very competent civilian headcounts. Those numbers can be trusted.

>>54567871
Lol, except that Vikings at one point ruled most of the British Isle. Cnut would like a word with your "only small raiding parties"

>>54568593
If you go by the census disparity, (which is how you get to around 40 million casualties), then China lost some 70% of its population from the pre-war days.

>>54568698
Most of the deaths weren't due to the battles; China could not support a population of 50ish million without extensive agricultural infrastructure, mostly in the form of long irrigation works spreading out from the Yellow River. As you have rampaging armies smashing shit, a lot of those were destroyed, and the big killers were hunger and disease.

>>54568232
>The wildlings are usually not much of a threat. It's only because the 7 kingdoms is disunited, the North devestated, and the Night's Watch undermanned that they are even a moderate threat.

I think this is worth stressing. The free folk who Jon climbed past the wall with were in awe of even a fairly small ruined tower, calling it a "castle". Their only means of laying siege are giants, who are few and procreate at a very slow rate. At most, they're going to cause further instability in the region and then the few survivors will go the way of the mountain clans.

I bet the wildling girls totally fucked the giants

>>54572308
Or they'll settle down, bend knee, and be slightly weird Northmen, just like the Hill Clansmen that preceeded them.

>>54567929
>>54569322
>harald hardrada
>viking
>11th century catholic
>viking

hmmm

>>54572854
his death is considered the end of the viking age and he very much operated as a traiditonal viking for most of his life (see his invasion of denmark for example, where he burned down most of the country). being a christian doesn't disqualify you from being a viking

>>54572854
also, he wasn't a catholic, but an orthodox christian in all but name

>>54567929
>>54571023
>when the only examples you can come up with are 11th century Christians that might as well not be vikings

>>54573127
sweyn forkbeard was a vikang, as he had been raiding in england prior to his invasion.

cnut the great led an army of vikings, making him a viking-king.

harald hardrada, a devout orthodox, raided much of denmark during his invasion. he also raided england just before his death at stamford bridge.

thus, all three of these were christian viking kings

>>54573242
Is it really a viking if they're not talking about odin and shit

>>54568031
You know nothing about the GoT setting and you should stop posting.

>>54573282
yes. a viking is just a scandinavian raider/ pirate. even harald hardrada's brother, olaf the holy, a man sanctified by the pope, raided in his youth

>>54573282
>>54573320
Most "vikings" during "the viking age" weren't even vikings

>>54573282
A viking is a raider. All three of them raided.

>>54573339
what is a viking then?

>>54573320
>>54573353
I know you're technically correct but I gotta be honest bros it feels a lot less cool if they're not praising Thor and shit

>>54573356
What was posted in >>54573320 is correct

What I'm saying is that the majority of Scandinavians during the middle ages and such weren't pirates, it was just one career path you could take among others and wasn't what they defined themselves as

>>54569513
Now that's a gross oversimplification.

>>54568496
And contributed immensely to the first few crusades.

>>54573389
if it makes you feel better, christianity in scandianvia during the viking age was heavily influenced by paganism as to make people convert easier, with jesus being seen as some kind of victorious warrior-god. some priests allegedly also told people that ragnarok had already happened, meaning jesus was the last surviving god (i recall all this from a history class, so sorry if something is wrong)

>>54568509
>Trusting Ancient Chinese historians writing well after the fact to be accurate with numbers.

We don't even trust early modern writers who saw the events transpire.

>>54573455
That does actually make me feel better anon, thank you

>>54573467
>>Trusting Ancient Chinese historians
Oh I don't trust ancient chinese historians. If you read what I wrote, you would know them to be bureaucrats.

>>54570811
>as per usual
Stop.

>>54567871
>Which often got defeated if they weren't raiding defenseless churches
really ? I thought they btfo'd Russia, England, France and even North Africa

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>>54569513
>The roman empire fell with the conquest of Theodoro around 1460.

>>54566950
What I love most abour these greentext threads is that you can always tell how stupid and tunnel-minded the person starting it is within the first few sentences of the opening post.

It'd be like if a person in real life had a glowing green sign above their heads that said "I am an idiot, please ignore me".

>>54567400
This checks out
>>54569599
It's s log scale