Your character is a Mary Sue

.. If you say so

A thread died for this.

>>54565973
Well, can't really be an obscenely powerful main character without being a mary sue. In most table rpgs you will pretty much overpower anything and everything in your way, be it directly (through a fight or whatever) or in due time (through preparation and planning).

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>>54566005
Sad, isn't it?

Now I'm sad

And mad

Smad

>>54565973

Whats wrong with power fantasies? isn't this why tabletop games are for? when did games went from having silly fun to being some sort college drama project?

>>54565973
>>54565973
It's impossible to be a Mary Sue if you are not the author.
It has to be an author wanking over their own overly perfect self insert, in a media directed at others.

>>54566210
At least when quests were still here, it happened that threads like these kicked quests off.

What if the problem with mary sues was their portrayal within the context of their stories rather than the qualities possessed by the characters?

Rolled 2, 4, 6 + 3 = 15 (3d6 + 3)

>>54565973
I'm gonna make a level 2 female swordfighter named Mary Sue. Defeat one enemy, then go get killed by a dragon.

>>54567257
That's exactly what a Mary Sue is. OP is just baiting.

>>54565973

>I DO NOT KNOW WHAT MARY SUE ACTUALLY MEANS

>>54566005

Let them die. If it was that far on the bottom in /tg/ then it's a dead fucking thread. It was like that when quests were here and it's definitely like that now.

>>54565973
what does Mary Sue mean anyway? I never got that thing when lurking /tg/ threads.

>>54567257
That's exactly the issue with a Mary Sue for people that aren't retarded who don't worship tvtropes. Prior to idiots looking at common superficial traits they tend to share and thinking that equals an MS, people just called them a bad character.
The problem with them is that they make everything about the story be setting warp around them in order to make them the centre of the universe, which is why using the term outside fan fiction is so stupid. Sure, you get the odd Bella Swan that fits the bill, but cases like that are staggeringly rare.
Even the likes of Eragon don't fit, despite him being a badly written character.

>>54567448
Read the first part in Shatner's voice. That was such a good movie.

>>54566872
>Whats wrong with power fantasies?
They're anthitetic to communism.

>>54567595
The only character I can think of that fits the term from an actual piece of popular fiction is probably Rey, from Ep. 7, because it was about as close to fan fiction as you can get in Hollywood.

>random no-name who's good at basically everything
>all the original cast that show up fawn over how amazing she is
>better than Kylo at the force even though she has basically 0 training, particularly after Kylo pulled that insane trick at the start with the blaster bolt
>even when she screws up she actually succeeds.

I mean, fuck. Even Anakin at his worst shit was only an amazing pilot and gearhead. Rey makes him look pretty fucking mundane by comparison.

>>54565973
Que???

>>54565973
Man, I reached up to Is he level 1

>>54567782
I'm inclined to agree.
What pushes it over the edge is the fact that the last act becomes practically all about her, despite the fact that they're dealing with a apocalyptic level superweapon.
Han and Finn barely seem to care about it until after they're reunited with her, not to mention Snoke and Kylo's obsession with her out of nowhere.

>>54568301
I can kind of get Snoke and Kylo freaking out about her after doing the 'no u' psychic trick, but otherwise I agree. The entire movie is all about Rey while the other characters just sort of tool around.

That scene where the Starkiller Base actually fired was pretty dope though.

>>54568964
Starkiller Base was the most retarded superweapon ever built, even counting expanded universe.
Abrams needs to be beaten to death with the technical manuals of every franchise he's ruined by his presence

>>54569109
>sure the EU's gone, but Kathleen couldn't possibly come up with m, or give the approval for something more retarded than the suncrusher, right JJ?
>you are like little baby. Watch this.

>>54569109
Oh I definitely don't deny it was retarded. I just enjoyed watching it obliterate multiple planets. The movie really sold the power of the thing.

Most of my characters ARE obnoxious speshul snowflakes, but that's mainly because as an artfag designing fucked up monstrous or "cool" characters is more fun.

That said there's usually a direct correlation between how speshul snowflake a character is and how much they're willing to be the party face, I guess it's a subconscious effort to balance out their special-ness. That and they usually have 2 to 3 times more potentially crippling character flaws than other PCs too to help balance it out.

>>54567741
What if I want to be a strong soviet soldier heroically fighting the enemies of the Motherland

>>54565973
WELL, THAT'S KIND OF THE FUCKING POINT, DUMBASS.

>>54565973
Well, YOUR father was a hamster and your mother smelled of elderberries!
Let us all point and laugh at this silly englishman!

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>>54569378
>he can't even get the insult right
I bet you're a Spaniard.

>>54567224
Shut the fuck up.

>>54569668
Had you not answered to this 5 hours old post, I wouldn't have posted here again and would have effectively shut up. Good job, Anon.

>>54567513
The origin lies in the name of the main character from a parody of Star Trek fan fiction. Mary Sue (and the characters she was designed to mock) was a female adolescent protégée that frequently saved the day, was fawned over by the entire male cast and acted as a self-insert of the author.

From this, several different definitions can be extrapolated.
>A Mary Sue is a fan-created main character thrust into a setting with an established canon and an already established cast of main characters.
>A Mary Sue is an idealized self-insert of the author with all of the flaws that the author is able to perceive scraped off.
>A Mary Sue is an exceptionally and unreasonably talented character capable of all manner of ridiculous feats, inevitably causing the story to revolve around them.
>A Mary Sue is an unreasonably exceptional individual that breaks a number of the setting's "rules." For example, the last survivor of an extinct species, the only moral specimen of an immoral species, the only individual capable of using a certain sort of magic or item, etcetera.

There's more definitions that I missed, for sure. Choose one or more of those definitions and that's what a Mary Sue is.

>>54569224
This how I make my characters as well - I adore giving my characters flaws - something my last DM was mad about - for not making a mary sue

>>54569798
Good list, it is personally separate
>A Mary Sue is an exceptionally and unreasonably talented character capable of all manner of ridiculous feats
And
>inevitably causing the story to revolve around them.
Since the former can also be just fluff to make her look great with no story bearing, and the latter is practically mandatory for an MS, regardless of their particulr brand of terrible

>>54565973
But everyone hates my character (even me), he's always wrong and never wins.

>>54569798
All of them should apply. Overly generalizing the applicability of the term does it no good - it muds the original meaning.

Think like this: there are bad characters, bad characters which are probably self-insertion .. but the pinnacle of bad writing is a Mary Sue.

>>54567782
If Daniel Craig spends his entire brief appearance in the movie in full Stormtrooper armor, does that even count as a cameo?

I'd posit that Mary Sue is like the Chernobyl meltdown: it's not one problem, it's multiple problems happening all at once. A character can have one trait from the list, but that doesn't make them a Mary Sue.

Go read "Silly Novels by Lady Novelists", an essay written I believe during the Jane Austen days by a female author disgusted by her fellow female authors' bad habits. It's Mary Sue in all but the name.

>>54569798
>the only moral specimen of an immoral species,

"The saddest thing is, I'm a *very good* tailor."

>>54567782
What about Katniss Everdeen, from the perspective of someone actually watching the Hunger Games in-story? Everything seems to focus on her because of her volunteering, and then the games are practically handed to her. Gifts fall from the sky, her fellow 12th falls for her, there just happens to be a hive of superbees right where she needs them, she never has to make a real decision to kill (it's all self-defense and mercy killings), and then the rules are suspended at the end just for her.

>>54569798
The definition of Mary Sue is all of those, at once. That's the real problem.
>>54570142
>Garak
>moral

>>54567513
It's the easiest nuzzword argument a fa/tg/uy, /v/ermin et al can muster when he or she dislikes a fictional character but cannot formulate a reasoned criticism of said character.

>>54566315
>>54565973

what are some other words for mixed emotions?

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>>54565973
n-nnaani?

>>54569648
What, can't handle someone not being a mary sue and having DEEP and REALISTIC flaws like not being able to remember monty python sketches with autistic detail and getting trolled on the internet? Not MARY SUE enough for you?

>>54567782

Rey was much older than anikan when they were "found". Also, Rey is a reincarnation so she has that going for her as well.

>>54570753
>Also, Rey is a reincarnation so she has that going for her as well
That really doesn't help the Mary Sue case, anon.

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>>54570753
>Rey was much older than anikan when they were "found"
She also uses the force almost as well as a trained master. Her talent set is wider than Anakin's ever was right at the outset, who was only ever shown to be a good swordsman and excellent pilot. Meanwhile Rey is a better pilot than Han or Chewie, learns how to jedi mind trick people after hearing about it once, does turnabout of an advanced mind reading technique just because, and actually manages to win a lightsaber duel even though she actually has less light saber experience than the motherfucking stormtrooper. The only person she doesn't hilariously overshadow is Poe Dameron, who practically has all his kills lined up like bowling pins whenever he enters aerial combat.

>Also, Rey is a reincarnation so she has that going for her as well.
She's some jedi's brat, not Jesus. She doesn't have any more right to force power than Kylo Ren does, except Kylo actually got off his ass to work for it.

>>54570152
She probably is, judging by your description. I never bothered with the Hunger Games series since I outgrew most YA fiction years ago and was never part of HG's demographic to start with.

>>54570399
>Hangry- hungry and angry
I see this one tossed around a lot

>>54567782
So shes a female Luke. Go figure that tg bitches about it.

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>>54565973
Hahahaah you stupid faggot! My character isn't a mary sue because I don't have a character.

>>54570936
holy fuck are you butthurt about a female protag. where is she shown to be a better pilot than han and chewie?

re: mind trick
she obviously has former jedi training you numbskull. also did you forget how anakin as a 8 year old single handedly defeats the CIS attack on naboo?

re: lightsaber duel
they explain this in the fucking movie or are you too thick to connect two dots? do you remember how much damage chewies bowcaster did? kylo soaked that into his leg and kept fighting, of course he lost. and rey already has combat training (see fighting with the staff on jakku) and if you look closely you can see she uses the lightsaber in a similar fashion to her staff. (also: if shes had jedi training previously, which i am convinced of, she has probably trained with a lightsaber as well).

and can you enlighten me on what poe did that was so ridiculous? i remember him passing out and dropping a few bombs

>>54565973
>human male drifter (rogue) armed with a big heavy stick and driven to avoid starvation
>Mary sue

>54572122
>54572236
You're not getting any (you)s, so stop embarrassing yourself
I think /tv/ is thick enough to take the bait, so you my want to try there

>>54572122
She's female Luke dialed up, just like every other thing in Not!A New Hope.
>Starkiller Base is like the Death Star, but more kaboomy
>Jakku is like Tatooine, but dryer and with more shipwrecks
>Kylo Ren is like Vader, but displays anger in a more immature manner
>that giant dude is like Palpatine, but bigger

>>54572236
>also did you forget how anakin as a 8 year old single handedly defeats the CIS attack on naboo?
Not him, but I thought that was stupid. Phantom Menace was stupid. The prequels were stupid overall.

>re: lightsaber duel
I think that's a fair point, though.

>>54573028

The literal same argument could be levelled at RotJ.

>Death Star II but more powerful and well-defended
>Tatooine, again
>Vader is in the exact same role he is in the first movie: hanging out on the Death Star waiting for Luke to show up
>Palpatine is Tarkin, but more important and menacing

I mean I don't know why "Star Wars but it's bigger" is an actual problem for Star Wars fans, that's what Star Wars always was.

You have legitimate critiques but part of the problem is that it's the first movie, so we know nothing about Rey or why she is the way she is. It's entirely possible her backstory will include something that doesn't sound stupid. Is she a little overtuned and maybe a bit too good at the Force? Sure, but that might also be that they've been showing the Force to be more powerful and active and BIG now that they have the budget for it. We all like the subtle, mysterious power from the originals, but the fact of the matter is that Lucas wanted big, not subtle, and it was SFX that kept it small.

>>54572122
Luke couldn't do shit with the force until he trained with yoda, and even then it took a fair while for him to be actually good. Rey was mind tricking people and resisting trained sith after discovering she had the force ten minutes ago, with zero training.

>>54572122
The big difference is how the other characters react to them.Nobody except Obi-Wan likes Luke at first, they all see him as a naive liability. The first thing Leia does when they meet is mock his height, he needs to win their respect. Everyone thinks Rey is the coolest and love her unconditionally as soon as they meet her.

>>54573394
>The literal same argument could be levelled at RotJ
It has. Repeatedly.
The fact that the throne scene is by far the best part of the entire franchise is what makes the film great.
The rest was relatively uninspired. Ewoks are the entry level criticism of ROTJ

>>54573473
At 9 years old, Anakin was flying fighters that he'd never been in before and destroying giant Control Ships, and reading Mace Windu's mind.

Part of what the force does is it makes you good at things really quickly. Rey just happens to be good at the force itself really quickly.

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>Make overpowered character with near limitless resources in a universe full of megacorporations with more resources
>Make them highly trained and capable across the board, due to convoluted backstory
>...but actually play as a clone of that character, sold as a slave with next to no resources and only their knowledge among their assets as they have to fight tooth and claw in a near-constantly desperate situation
>Not really more capable than other characters in the setting
>Original character is instead set up as the villain and antagonist

Is the PC here a Mary-Sue?

>>54565973
Ugh, I had a character who hit all the above. Except probably female part. Though that was more about a preference and not due to inability to change physical body.

And he still was not a Mary Sue. Because he was one of the weakest characters in the game. And also died halfway through.

>>54573591
That's fair. By the same token, I actually liked Kylo Ren. I didn't get the sense that he was throwing whiny tantrums because he was a bitch, but that he was trying to harness his anger and he didn't really understand the seething hate that guys like Maul and Vader owned. He didn't hate himself or anything, he just heard "anger = strong" and tried to BE ANGRY ALL THE TIME.

It's actually kind of neat to see what a Sith apprentice is like and I'm excited to see him grow into a proper, real-ass Vader. It's a nice angle to take. I appear to be alone in that thought, or at least it appears to be an infrequent one, but the sense that Rey and Kylo are both gifted prodigies undergoing training in their respective sides of the Force is a thing I thought the movie did OK. Not great, but OK.

We've never really had an actual apprentice-level Sith on the field before.

>>54573727
I have to agree. Kylo Ren is half-trained and constantly conflicted for most of the movie. He has only mostly fallen to the Dark Side, not entirely - thus the struggle on that bridge with his father.

At first I wished they had cast a different actor to play him. As soon as Adam Driver pulled off that mask, I had a hard time taking the character seriously. He just reminded me contantly of an angry angsty teen rebelling against all authority because its the only thing that makes him feel in control.

Which, after thinking about it, was exactly what was going on with the character. Combine standard teenage "I feel powerless and out of control of my life and I blame everything else around me", the usual headbuggery the force causes, and feeling like he was rejected by his parents when he was sent to Uncle Luke's Jedi Training Camp.

You've got a confused and angry kid, who Snoke manipulates in a moment of weakness.

Five bucks says the incident that cause Han and Leia to send him to Luke's was some sort of anger-fueled force usage, so he took being sent to the camp as punishment for something he didn't understand.

I think I like the character. I hope we see more redeeming stuff - not in the sense of returning to light, but rather redeeming a bad character to be a good villain.

>>54567513
It is pretty much a character that shows an unnaturally strong pull on the setting due to wish fulfillment to an extreme which cause it to become nonsensical.

People tried to add a bunch of shit to the idea later on but that is pretty much the sum of it. Someone like Jesus isn't a sue because logically being the son of god he should have the pull he does. And random gods mentioned in the backstory aren't a sue because the story-line isn't about them even though they are very powerful.

A sue is someone like a fanfiction character who is supposed to be a normal high school girl who just happens to have 7 different eye colors and can see the future for no real reason and has every single boy and girl in the world in love with her since birth? Basically is the pull of the characters existence on the setting larger then it should logically be? And if so is it in a way that feels like wish fulfillment?

It's part of the reason you can't logically have a PC being a mary sue without the DM making it so. A PC doesn't have the power over the narrative so can't make the world revolve around one being.


>>54567595
>Bella Swan

I wouldn't even say Bella would count to be honest. She does have unexplainable power but the world doesn't seem to revolve all that much around her and in the end most of the reason she survives is more or less she has a decently powerful vampire in love with her. It's pretty obviously wish fulfillment but it's mostly within range of a romance novel. And you could strip Bella out and there would still be things going on in the world. The werewolves feud and the likes.

>>54577576
>but the world doesn't seem to revolve all that much around her
Twilight and breaking dawn don't qualify, but Eclipse is all about her (for incredibly retarded reasons), and Breaking Dawn certainly is.
Breaking Dawn in particular is where Meyer stopped trying to pretend Bella was for anyone else but her, and it really shows.

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>>54577576
Nice job there with the punctuation.

>>54577742
I make sure to butcher my punctuation. Just to piss off people who nitpick about grammar. It's one of the only pleasures I still feel in life.

>>54577694
Yeah that's about right. I'd say it's breaking dawn when things really hit close. Eclipse was when it started to go down hill more and more.

>>54577694
>Twilight and breaking dawn don't qualify,
fuck, meant twilight and new moon.
Those two actually attempted to justify the plot including her.

>>54569137
>suncrusher
oh fuck me i'd almost purged that from memory.

if a vehicle could ever be a mary sue, that was it
>orders of magnitude more powerful than the death star
>can survive being hit by a death star
>can literally fly through other starships without concequence
>the size of a fucking x-wing

fuck you, kevin j anderson.

>>54577576
Youvmissed an important point:
People who like Sue are Good, and vice versa.
People who dislike Sue are Bad, and vice versa.
And never the twain meets.

>>54578659
>and vice versa.
People who like Good are Sue?

>>54566011
Being powerful doesn't make you Mary Sue.