Elves should be the best at magic

>>54546698
For elves magic should be informed ability.

They are supposed to be great at it, but it shouldn't ever help them in any meaningful way, because elves suck.

>>54546698
It's rather odd. Most settings ostensibly say that Elves are the best race at arcane magic, having the best most long lived wizards and all that jazz. Of course, then you usually end up with the fact that heroic humans have to be the best at everything, so the greatest human wizard is a hyper-savant, while the greatest elf mage is a couple steps below him despite studying for 900 years.

It's probably a combination of HFY, and the fact that the BBEG is usually a Wizard, and it'd be weird if he wasn't the strongest wizard, since somebody would stop him otherwise?

I would say that in most settings, the average elf far outpaces the average human for magical potential, due in part to their lower population size and higher affinity for basic magic.

Personally for mine, I opted to just make Elves so good at magic that they just used to to get away from all those pesky worldly concerns and form a society elsewhere.

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>>54546698
fuck off out of here race traitor.

In D&D it was only OG to 2.5 where this was the case and it was because Elves were to busy being prancing mincing faggots to hit the books hard enough to reach the higher echelons of magic. It didn't matter they were still better than 98% of humans as only a very select few are supposed to reach that high level (the shit is not supposed to be like WoW with every tom, dick and harry at max level)

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>>54546698
Very nice. Tapping into half the board's hatred for elves, and further implying several other topics, including Casters and HFY, all with the same tonal writing designed to annoy anyone who disagrees. Very efficient, and effective. Should easily reach bump limit.

8.5/10, Original, if a bit pushing it on being to obviously condescending.

>>54546698
>Elves should be the best at (divine or primal) magic
I agree.

>>54546795
>Most settings ostensibly say that Elves are the best race at arcane magic
I've noticed the complete opposite myself.
The D&D multiverse being the most notable example.

Generally authors go for
>"humans both garner the worst and best of wizards whilst the elves are more consistent in talent"
It also aligns perfectly with human ambition.

>Thinks elves should be best at magic
>Uses Warhammer as example
>Laughing_Slaan.jpeg

>>54546796
Oh please. Elves being considered magic-users / wizards is a very recent thing for D&D.

Humans have always been the pinnacle of magic.

>>54546916
>Elves being considered magic-users / wizards is a very recent thing for D&D

Their very first implementation was a hybrid melee/magic-user class.

Don't give me that bullshit.

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>>54546698
Sure elves should have the higher innate magic, but most just lack the discipline to study up on it.
Those few who do rigorously study up have a higher skill ceiling than humans, but most elves are too fickle to bother with such nonsense.

>>54546698
Agreed. I don't get why people are calling this bait. In most Tolkien inspired, western fantasy settings Elves are explicitly magical and almost always long lived. It doesn't make sense for some random 80 year old human being a better mage than a 5000 year old elf who has been breathing magic since birth.

>>54546958
>Their very first implementation was a hybrid melee/magic-user class.
Yeah, that's kind of my point. They couldn't surpass humans with magic in the earliest of editions.

>>54546978
>Those few who do rigorously study up have a higher skill ceiling than humans
I'd argue it's the opposite, considering humans learn in decades what takes centuries for elves.

>>54547004
Humans advance faster, elves have more time to git gud.
Abnormally good humans can come along and be better than any elf, but those are the exception, not the rule.

>>54546817
I think the biggest flaw is he forgot to reply to himself with some sort of "Have you tried not playing DnD?" response

>>54546997
>It doesn't make sense for some random 80 year old human being a better mage than a 5000 year old elf who has been breathing magic since birth.
Elves are phenomenally slow learners in fiction. Their psychology has been butchered by writers.

Though I guess this is the realistic point of view, considering 5000 year old individuals should be too alien to comprehend.
It's something often wrongly ignored. Long lived races/individuals bugs the hell out of me. They all act like children.

A 5000 year old human lich is generally going to outstrip a 5000 year old elf mystic.
Just look at (hate me all you want)Forgotten Realms

>>54547018
>Humans advance faster, elves have more time to git gud.

Elves should prevent humans from achieving immortality, lest they truly become the masters of magic.

>>54547042
>Elves are phenomenally slow learners in fiction
[citation needed]

>>54546916
Dumbass, OD&D elves were straight fighter/magic-users able to cast up to level 5 spells. Their big deal was the ability to create magic flying boats.

In 1st edition magic-user was their second highest class (level 11) they could rank up in.

And in 2nd edition they could only get to level 15 as a magic-user. Of the three races that could be magic-users they were the second highest behind human (20) and Half-Elf (12) not counting Gnome Illusionists (15).

From the very beginning elves have been casters to some degree. Just not the best because they are also fuckwits to concerned with spending 50 years drunk off their ass working on one still life painting and jerking off to be the best mages unlike the most dedicated of human casters.

>>54547053
That's why the encourage humans to go out and become adventurers. They tell them that the secret to immortality lies far away over those mountains and across that sea, deep in that dungeon crawling with impossible creatures and guarded by an ancient dragon.
It weeds out the ones stupid enough to actually try for immortality.

>>54547055
There are plenty of citations of elves maturing at a slower rate than humans. There are also plenty of citations of the exact opposite. Writers are plainly inconsistent.

One must look at the example characters. For some reason 40+ humans are somehow greater than millennia old elves at magic. It's bizarre, but canon.

>>54547074
That's just circular logic at that point. You're justifying elves not being the best casters by pointing out that some settings have humans be better than elves at casting.

>>54547063
So you concede that humans are greater in both potential and application?

Uh huh

>>54547086
I don't need to justify anything to determine the truth at this point. Humans have always been at least as good as the elves when it comes to magic.

Whether you like this or not, I don't really care. I'm a martial fag.

>>54547088
I never said they weren't. That was my original argument. It was either you or another person who made the ridiculous statement that elves never used magic until like 3.5 or some shit (or whatever they meant by "recent")

>>54547279
It's sort of funny that the Netherese seem to be so close to how most of /tg/ seems to characterize elves.

>>54546698
Humans should be better than other races at everything or else they wouldn't be good underdogs.

>>54547569
Shitposting aside, halflings are the underdogs. Humans are the ones that do everything

>>54547569
>better than other races
>underdogs
This doesn't make any sense

>>54547569
>>54547700
HFY in a nutshell

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Human wizards

Elf Wizards

Why not dwarf wizard?

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I still had the last weeks thread in mind and thought about making a thread aksing about actual fluff and crunch examples of confirmed better elf wizards, not IF they should be better, but examples of where they actually are, not worded baitly in any way, without a girl elf in the OP to only get the attention of people that are actually interested. But here we are.

As far as DnD is concerned in chainmail they were stealthy guys that could attack with magic, and in early editions could wear special armor that let them cast magic without the chance for failure. They seem to have been magic-fighters more than specialized wizards. But without anything making them better wizard, just that they could multiclass into it easily, or have any bonus giving them a free spell. Somethign that way.

Some people mentioned 5000 yeras old elves, it can't be stressed enough that these barely happen in any system we tend to play around here. DnD might not be the only system, but it's popular enough that you should know that they tend to get 700 years old at max. Also some human wizards in fiction that are really powerful tend to exceed their lifespan, like the already mentioned Nagash, so that must not need much.

tl;dr except warhammer elves, what are some canon superior elf wizards, in fluff and crunch?

>>54548406
Because dwarves only make magic things.

>>54548425
>so that must not need much
*not mean much
Fuck me.

It depends on the setting. In my custom setting, only one continent's elves are able to use non-divine or nature magic and that's because they were extraplanar immigrants (against their will).

Also, humans are generally better because there are more humans and humans have a....hasty nature when it comes to learning magic. If they accidentally blow up their lab while practicing a Fireball spell but they still manage to figure it out, it's a success. Elves on the other hand might spend five years carefully studying and practicing before attempting their first Fireball.

That's the main difference.

>>54548425
There are a good amount of superior elvish casters in various works, yet as anon noted the opposite takes the majority.

It shouldn't be hard for you to find these pieces.
Not really much of a question in the long run.

Using Forgotten Realms lore

Elves are generally more in-tune and better equipped when dealing with the deeper aspects of magic and epic level spells. Being more respectful of magic.
Only they(other than the Chosen) can work High Magic(elven Epic Magic)

Humans tend to pursue the Arcane much further in such shockingly thin amounts of time, ambition and hubris paving way for more individual power.
The Netherese ditched Epic Magic altogether in favor of grander spells.

>>54548544
>It shouldn't be hard for you to find these pieces
Then it shouldn't be hard for you to name these.

>>54548544
It should be noted that the Imaskari had mastered epic magic rivaling that of the elves

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Elves are shit

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>>54548406
Relevant

>>54548516
honestly this, it's in-flavor and justifies magically superior humans without being a cop-out.

>>54546698
Look at TES for a moment. Just because Bretons are the most magically inclined humans doesn't mean they have the best human wizards. Even the High Elves and the Psjic Order are pretty much equal to the Arcane University, just with a different focus.

Elves have the potential to be the best, but most don't focus on it, I think. And it'd be dull if elves were always the best wizards - I'd rather see a dwarf up there, just to surprise me. Humans do take the spotlight a lot, but it's a safe option when people generally have strong opinions on other races - hard to find those who hate humanity.

>>54549561
The only real flaw with it is that it implies a danger to magic learning that some settings just don't have. And I don't want every game to have a Dragon Age or 40k approach to magic, especially if it's just background fluff that doesn't meaningfully affect me.

>>54549681
The greatest mage in TES was a Nord

>>54549738
You mean a Breton, the Sage.

>>54549681
>Elves have the potential to be the best, but most don't focus on it

Not necessarily. They have the 'spark', that's about it. Once a certain threshold has been reached it's fair game.

>>54549681
You don't need to hate humanity if you don't want to see humans succeeding at everything despite being the average race, you just may hate human-centric writing for getting wrong what it means to be the underdog.

Also pretty sure that TES states that fluff-wise Altmer are the best magicians, if the games portray that correctly is a different matter. The best mage I can think of in the games was the Dunmer guy that made female clones of himself anyway.

>>54549748
Ah, that book. I keep hoping to this day that it will be elaborated on. It's such a minor mention of a supposedly grand wizard.

I was referring to Shalidor.

>>54549753
>Also pretty sure that TES states that fluff-wise Altmer are the best magicians

They say that, but then the games and further lore contradict it.

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>>54546795
>population

I think this might actually be a good argument.
Humans outnumber Elves by orders of magnitude, if we consider each generation of Humans against Elves in the same time period.

It actually makes sense that out of those numbers a hyper-savant type Human might be born once or twice.

After that you can just chalk it up to the story focusing on a "Heroic Age" and ignore the 400 years it takes between great human wizards.

>>54549772
They probably also say that there are cities in Skyrim that house more than thirty people, but the game does a bad job at portraying this.

>>54549800
A good reason why I said 'lore' alongside 'games'

>>54549840
I don't think anything objects that Altmer, as a race, in general, are the best wizards.

>>54546795
Elves have entire councils and courts full of venerable archwizards. Almost any elf can reach their level in time if they apply themselves.

Humans, on the other hand, are mostly mediocre, but they produce exceptional individuals at the greatest rate. Every few decades, a human will appear with such shocking talent that he or she eclipses all others, including elves.

So basically, elves have a very high median, whereas humans have a broader distribution. There is nothing conflicting about saying elves being the most magical race, but still getting out-wizarded by a human every now and then.

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>>54546698

>>54549737
Just make it a mental health danger instead of a physical one. It would explain why the basket case wizards who go around making owlbears and what not are usually human.

>>54546698
thats a pretty nice rack

>>54549737
just make it a respect for monasticism and philosophical teaching vs practicality and lack of cluttering teachings, kinda like ancient martial arts movies where one disciple would shun his master for teaching too much philosophical crap and not enough techniques. Bonus if elves educated in magic in the human world are better than both humans and other elf magic users.

>>54549862
It's not that they're not the best wizards, it's that there are other races who also quality for the status.

Namely Bretons, Nords, Dunmer and occasionally(especially in the past) the Redguard.

A few other 'unplayable' races are also clear contenders.

>>54549879
>Elves are women
>Humans are men

>>54549879
It would be easier to say that the elves are more consistent in application.
Humans, being so varied and numerous, harbor both the greatest and the worst wizards known in history.

There's a very clear bell curve amongst the two races.

>>54550025
If by Nords you mean the snowniggers that are fluff-wise even afraid of magic it only shows that the writing of the TES games is confused about what it wants to be.

>>54550065
The 'snowniggers' being afraid of magic is an essential part of why they're no longer venerated practitioners of magic.

Indeed, Shalidor wanted it restricted even among his own people. One of the greatest wizards of all time (possibly the greatest) was the reason for its neglect.

>>54550085
And what is their innate ability that made them such great wizards?

>>54548406
But thats a dragon anon.

Seriously, that's the platinum dragon god Bahamut in his human form with his seven gold dragons that accompany him

>>54550107
Nothing. They were just devout practitioners. After a certain point the 'spark' of magic is irrelevant.

Eventually brains comes into the equation far more so than how much mana runs in your veins.

>>54550133
>Eventually brains comes into the equation
So Mer are still better, gotcha.

>>54550168
That... What? Not even sure how you came to that conclusion.

Whatever.

Someone setup a logarithmic graph of this. I always set my secondary races as (across the world not necessarially in one spot) 10% of the entire human poplulation except for orcs. Orcs are on a 1 to 1 scale.

Fermi estimations work great for this. 10 million humans, 1 million each for elves, dwarves, halflings, gnomes.
Lets say that humans have a 1% magically gifted rate and of that 100,000, 10% actually do anything with it. 10,000 wizards and sorcerers in a population of 10 million.
we will go with 10% of the population for the elves, so 100,000 again. elves have the time to study their art so we will assume that 100% of all potentials reach some level of proficiency. thats 100k wizards.
Now, human ambition and sheer force of luck will put them on par in general with elves (some are worse) but 10% of that 10k, 1k, will end up becoming WAY more powerful than anything else on the planet.
is this a reasonable estimate guys?

>>54550216
>Now, human ambition and sheer force of luck will put them on par in general with elves
No, use actual numbers of very gifted people or savants we have in humanity instead of this lazy writer cop-out.

>>54549681
>Psjic Order are pretty much equal to the Arcane University
What?

>>54549738
>>54549748
Both of you are mistaken it was Sotha Sil or Kagrenac . Both of them elves but race is often a minor thing in TES.
Still if I remember correctly next most powerful would be Mannimarco (altmer), Galerion(altmer), Shalidor(nord), Zurin Arctus(imperial), Phynaster(probably altmer) Mankar Camoran(altmer) and Martin Sepim(imperial) deserves mention as well as Divath Fyr(dummer) plus we have Denstagmer but we don't know his race.
Altmer are in majority.

>>54550264
>Both of you are mistaken it was Sotha Sil or Kagrenac
They were up there. It's kind of difficult to compare them.

>>54550216
Interesting, but fruitless. Or maybe I'm just tired of this thread.

>>54550264
>trying to rank TES mages

Yeah, nope. That never works. Until Bethesda garners some coherent storytelling you're out of luck, buckaroo.

>>54550264
I believe it was mentioned at one point that the Greybeards would be more than a match for the Psijic Order.

>>54549738
>>54549748
>>54550264
Redguards are the most powerful mages. Or at least they were. They blew up a fucking continent.

Humans should be evil wizards elves should be good wizards. Then it's fair.

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TESfags get the fuck out

>>54550365
It is a matter of discussion if we can name "shouts" as magic as they manipulate earth bones directly without using magicka.

>>54550330
>trying to rank TES mages
I'm not ranking them aside from god and mad guy that managed to disappear entire race a feats that nobody else managed to do.

Rest are in random order from mages known for their power. Dagoth-Ur probably qualify as one of the top.

>>54547068
And occasionally, one makes it through the filter. He's now the best adventurer ever, and worse than the elves had ever imagined. They created this.

>>54550407
You really need to consider all the other ludicrous feats performed by other mages before you can place those two at the top.

Debating this is only going to derail the thread further though, so I am withdrawing.

>>54550407
Greybeards have been called mages of a specialized sort before, Tonal Architecture or not.

>>54546698
>>54546817

I saw the post and it was so obviously bait. Pretty good bait, but so obvious. Still, well done. People really got hooked.

Give me one good reason why non-magical humans should be better than overtly magical fae beings

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>>54550591
>muh ambition

Give me one good reason why overtly magical fae beings should be better than non-magical humans

>>54550599
>>54550604
Sorry no, that's not how this works.

>>54550591
we gave them the d

>>54550591
>elf takes centuries to become 20th level wizard
>human takes decades to become 20th level wizard

Gee, I wonder who the strongest caster is?

>>54550670

If you're playing a game, an elf and a human wizard would take the same time to become 20th level.

>>54550670
Now give that human immortality and WHAMO

>>54550678
Yeah. A game. Not according to lore. PCs are an outlier.

>>54550699
>tfw you remember that the first archmages in dnd lore were characters that gygax's friends played, so everyone based their characters on them

>>54550728
Or the one Ed Greenwood made, but that's a Marty Sue, so my point still stands.

I don't understand. What's so wrong with humans being on par with the elves with magic? Other races even. It gives variety to the setting's magic.

Have a single best race is just lame. I'm also of the above opinion that we don't see enough dwarf wizards.

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>elves aren't the best at everything

>>54550770
>It gives variety to the setting's magic
Who uses magic doesn't automatically give variety to the magic.

>>54550787
They're apparently not the greatest at having noses

>>54550795
in your opinion. Though I think you fail to see what I mean by variety.

>>54550808
Then explain it please.

>>54550833
It's quite simple really. Each culture/race/whatever is unique in their outlook with magic.

Of course elves would be more in tune with lifegiving magics. Perhaps dwarves are more grounded and deal with material things. Humans being the most ambitious crave the most power.

That sort of thing.

>>54550849
And how should I be able to decipher this from your little snippet of text? Have you thought about that when I greentexted your post? This is no innovative idea anyway.

>>54550864
Now you're being hostile just for the sake of being hostile. Nor was innovation my intention.

Good day, sir.

>>54548406
Anon, that's Bahamut.

>>54550913
>>>/reddit/

>>54546698
>or am I alone

I don't know about elf wizards, but I do know that you are very much alone. I'm so sorry.

It's been said time and again. Humans spike higher because we're (dnd. Suck my dick)

Every-fucking-where: Most magic users across the world know the big human magi. Good luck getting one in a thousand to name three elven high mages, we're spread out, we breed and we interact with the world at large.

Fewer fucks given: Others explained this. What an elf will spend years building up to a human will do in a month

The Anime protagonist quality: "muh willpower" "muh determination" and so on. Humans spend a good 15 years becoming self sustaining, have somewhere around 30 years around our peak and then 20+ years of decline. We do things faster because we actively do not have time. 5 years learning groundwork is par for an elf but for us? That's a good chunk of Life pissed away.

and again as others have said. Elves will be more consistent.On average knife ear wizards will be better and we discount them a great deal because they are isolationist cunts

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>>54546817

You're doing gods work, bait reviewer

This is why Talistlanta exists, you wretched plebeians.

>>54548425

Warcraft. I think most elf varieties have people at least 5000+ years old and the ancient Night Elves definitely had a command of the arcane that let them dominate for ages.

>>54546817
>being to obviously condescending

Since the topic is elves, isn't condescension considered keeping with the motif?

>>54547279
>>54548672

Humans can't use High Magic in Forgotten realms though. Only elves and some half-elves.

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>>54548425
>tl;dr except warhammer elves, what are some canon superior elf wizards, in fluff and crunch?

Tolkien. Ignoring divine spirits, the most powerful magic-user in the setting is Galadriel.

She is maybe rivalled by the Witch-King, but he is directly empowered by Sauron, and even then who knows.

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>>54546698

>>54546698
I disagree. Kobolds should be the best at magic.

>>54546698
One of the first tricks a talented human wizard learns is how to prolong his life long enough to get really good at magic. Don't see the problem there. Of course, certain tradeoffs may have to be made, like dark magic or lichdom.

>>54546698
Also have to remember at a certain point all wizards/mages are basically immortal or have ridiculously long life spans. So it doesn't matter how short lived your initial race is as long as you can continue learning.

>>54547004
Elves should be innately magical and decently good at it but they should have a low skill-ceiling
Humans should be crap at magic at first and ascend to godhood by sheer force of will, dedication and a lifetime of studies

>>54553955
>Tolkien. Ignoring divine spirits, the most powerful magic-user in the setting is Galadriel.

If we go by the books, you're flat out fucking wrong, buddy.

Peter Jackson had a massive boner for Blanchett

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Old bearded humans represent the pinnacle of magic more than some pretty knife eared beauty, sorry.

This isn't self inserted HFY, it's trope bias.

>>54558452
What about that Tom Babaldy guy or whatever his name was?

>>54546698
You haven't provided logic for why elves should be best at magic (assuming you have any logic), so no it doesn't annoy anyone else.
The basic mechanics of magic that you're talking about changed twice in one paragraph (first you talked about WarCraft then Warhammer magic), so I'm guessing your reasoning boils down to you liking elves and wanting them to be good at magic rather then any hard rationality at all.

So what you are saying is that you want people to agree with your completely subjective and wholly arbitrary opinion. Which isn't bad mind you, it's just not gonna convince many people.

>>54558452
Not him, but "magic" doesn't even remotely mean the same thing as it does in D&D as it does in Tolkien.

>>54559440
Tom Bombadil is quite the obscure figure. He might even be Eru in human form.

>>54553955
Galadriel can't do "magic" as you are thinking of it, actually. Short version; magic in Tolkien works literally nothing like D&D magic.
>>54559440
Tom Bombadil.
He can't do "magic" either, and while he can do some weird stuff he's sort of limited by what he is....whatever that actually is.

>>54559479
Magic is magic in Middle-Earth. The elves do not refer to it as such, however. It's just a natural occurrence to them.
The Wizards of Istari refer to their craft as 'magic', and they're on a higher tier than the elves.

Magic is more mystical in Tolkien's works, while magic in D&D is entirely an art, and a science to its more academic users and practitioners.

>>54559479
>>54559517
Well how DOES magic work in Tolkien then?

>>54559517
No, both Galadriel(she exclusively studied it in the West) and Bombadil work magic.

Tolkien's magic is based on mythological magics, and very divine in nature.

>>54559542
There's an entire page on three separate Wikis, anon.

Have a gander.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_(Middle-earth)
http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Magic_in_Tolkien_Mythology
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Magic

>>54559526, >>54559542
Elf-magic in the setting isn't really spellcasting, it's more like being so ridiculously good at a skill that in effect it becomes a superhuman power of sorts from practicing it and using it for centuries on end. Thus an elf can't ever shoot fire from his hands because that's not a practicing skill.
The Rings of Power are sort of an exceptions (they do things no ring should ever do), but that's because Sauron taught Celebrimbor the basic concept and then let Silverhand's own superlative memory of craftsmanship do the rest.
Gandalf is the closest to the D&D wizard because he works with fire and light, but the other Istari have different sorts of abilities; Saruman for example could enthrall folk with superhuman charisma but not do the D&D thing.

Real "magic" is the provenance of divine or semi-divine beings like the Istari or Sauron, and even then there's limits to what they can do.

>>54559662
Your idea of magic is a bit skewered. This isn't D&D.
Everything the elves do is "magic", they just never express the need for such definitions.

Whether it is realer or not is irrelevant.

>>54559662
Even Morgoth seemed limited in what he could do; he was obviously powerful and dangerous but he had nothing like continent-shattering power blasts despite literally having a major hand in making reality itself.
He mostly seemed to be about perverting the act of creation, twisting it to his own ends. His most impressive feat of "sorcerery" comes from what he did to Hurin's children (his literally willing a horrible doom upon his descendants), but even that seemed to take time, like he sort of warped the laws of causeality so that horrible things WOULD happen rather then just we-writing reality outright.

>>54559735
Magic will always have its limitations depending on the setting in-question.

That said, Morgoth was said to be the strongest of the Ainur.

>>54559735
A lot of that is actually from Tolkien's Christian beliefs. Morgoth is basically Lucifer, and Christian belief is that nothing he can make is new or good or wonderful, but he can jealously pervert or warp what is already made by God.

>>54559662
>Elf-magic in the setting isn't really spellcasting, it's more like being so ridiculously good at a skill that in effect it becomes a superhuman power of sorts from practicing it and using it for centuries on end. Thus an elf can't ever shoot fire from his hands because that's not a practicing skill.

Elves certainly practice illusions or "glamour". Some also have prophetic abilities like Galadriel and her mirror.

There are more impressive feats, like Galadriel tearing down the walls of Dol Guldur or Elrond's flooding the ford, but I guess you could debate how much of that is their natural abilities and how much comes down to the rings of power they wield.

>>54559804
Gandalf also helped with the river enchantment, providing it with some of its shapes.

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Can elves be thicc?

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>>54560755
yes

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>Warcraft

Humans are still the best mages despite being short lived bastards

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no because fuck elves

>>54561183
Why are you angry, anon? Did an elf touch you in a naughty area?

>>54561084
Aside from the Guardians of Tirisfal (who are a joint human-elven venture), I don't see it. Remember the ancient highborne basically conquered the world with their magic and fucked things up on a scale that humans couldn't dream of. Queen Azshara is still out there somewhere and boy is she salty.

>>54561334
Nah, it's quite canon that most of the greatest mages were human

That book in Dalaran.

You're also forgetting that Highborne magic is outdated according to the blood elves.

>>54561357
>That book in Dalaran.

You'll have to be more specific.

>>54561380
The Old Wizard's Almanac

>https://wow.gamepedia.com/The_Old_Wizard%27s_Almanac

>>54561395
Fair enough, although the same book says that high elves are just as good at magic, so in that sense it's probably down to the fact that humans are much more numerous.

>>54561084

That's just a communion cast. Archimonde trashed Dalaran solo.

>>54553955

Witch-king implicitly can't beat Galadriel. Tolkien wrote about Mordor's assaults on Lorien that nothing but Sauron coming himself could help against the power dwelling there.

>>54561431
As much as I love the films, it's stuff like this that irks me. Gandalf never lost to the Witch King in the novels, it was more of a metaphorical standoff for hope. But 'cool factor' Jackson.
Galadriel also should have never defeated Sauron. The whole White Council showdown didn't even happen the way it did.

God, The Hobbit was fucking terrible.

>>54561428
>in that sense it's probably down to the fact that humans are much more numerous
That, and the fact that humans have advanced magic more than any other. Dalaran, while a human nation, was the center for all the race's magical efforts. It was the Harvard of the Arcane, compared to Silvermoon's Oxford.

The elves acknowledged this, and they readily join(ed) the Kirin Tor to learn more.

>>54561431
>Archimonde
You mean a literal Demigod?

>>54561465

Since it was pretty blatant from the Hobbit that they were going to combine the banishment of the Necromancer with the overthrowing of Dol Guldur, I had no problem with someone beating a weakened Sauron since I was expecting it and Jackson films already took way bigger liberties with the canon, like the Ghost Army soloing Pelennor and clearing invaders from Minas Tirith in 5 seconds. "The Ring" style for a serious mode Galadriel on the other hand.

>>54561550
Except Sauron wasn't weakened in the novels. It was a massive fucking feint.

Wizards were also strictly prohibited from confronting him. It wasn't a very coherent movie decision.

>>54561598
Word of God(Tolkien) also stated that Gandalf, despite being so fearful, was the only individual capable of taking on Sauron 1v1.

Jackson downplayed much and more.

>Wizards were also strictly prohibited from confronting him
Probably the only accurate thing in the movie. Gandalf could only defend himself, without pressing forward in the fight.

Book Galadriel would have been obliterated short and simple.

>>54561598

He was weakened and gathering strength over the entire Third Age.

Gandalf ventured solo to Dol Guldur close to 1000 years before "Hobbit" when the Council suspected Sauron might be there and wanted to check on that. This would be risking a confontration with Sauron and ending up like the blues, ban on matching power with power is clearly flexible enough.

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>>54561357
Warcraft is a HFY/O(rc)FY.

>>54546698
the essential quality of elves is "people, but also magic". regular people in comparison view magic as something unusual and alien. none of them will touch it unless given very specific instructions. someone who goes on to be a wizard will have cast away all customs of normalcy.

for elves it's just stuff. they could do all the same things but mostly lack both the reason not to and reason to. they don't have context for the creative insanity that drives someone to be exceptional at it. they might become great, but they'd do it for reasons.

>>54561643
Tolkien wrote a letter about what would happen if someone powerful took the Ring from Frodo (# 246)
Gandalf could take Sauron 1 on 1 with the Ring and even then it would be an uncertain outcome. Galadriel with the Ring wouldn't have tried to 1 v 1 but have built an empire and armies until she could overwhelm Sauron.

Once beaten Sauron would have been done for good but the Ring and evil would endure and there'd be just another evil ruler on Middle Earth.

>>54561719
Ummmm, I'm sorry. But did you even read the books?

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>>54546698
Humans are more ambitious and power-hungry than the elves.
They have shorter lives but learn magic rather quickly, arguably faster than the fair folk.

3/4 of the thread got it right.
>elves have the spark, generally more consistent in magical application
>humans have the potential, garnering both the best and the worst of wizards

>>54563396
Most people on /tg/ haven't touched Tolkien's works.
They're a really hard read for some people.

He had a funny way to writing, that man.

>>54563565
That picture is awesome.

>>54563640
It is, isn't it? Quite stereotypical. I am enamored by the piece.

What's the point of giving elves magical racials if they're not going to be the best at magic?

>8 out of 10 of the best wizards are elves
>1 out of 10 is a human
>the other 1 out of 10 is from any other race
>human centric writing focusses on that one human
There, here we have it.

>>54546698
The wizard is the classic nerd powerfantasy. Can't take away from the classic pasty pale nerd that his human self-insert would be better at it than elves, and the fact that elves are inherently more magical makes it much more better, because the self-insert wins with muh ambition and superior science over instinctive, innate understanding.

>>54565924
Nice fanfiction

>>54565972
Humans learn faster than elves

There's that

>>54563565
Fuck you I play elves to be better at magic, not because they're elves.

>>54566043
Fuck you I play humans to be better at magic, not because they humans.

This thread is HFY piss

>>54565924
Apparently not in the lore, whatever setting.
Because reasons

>>54566031
>HFY
Leave

>>54566043
>>54566058
Here we have homosexuals in domestic combat

>>54566031
Because they are written by humans. There is nothing innate in the concept of elves that forces you to make them learn slower, only if you want to balance things out for whatever reason or make humans come out of top because you want them to be beat fictional race, which makes it questionable why you even have races with longer lifespans if it doesn't mean anything in the end.

>>54566090
>Because they are written by humans
Not an argument

>There is nothing innate in the concept of elves that forces you to make them learn slower
Elves could have a vastly different psychology for all you know. In fact, this is usually the case in a lot of works to help differentiate the various races.

>make humans come out of top because you want them to be beat fictional race
Not an argument

>which makes it questionable why you even have races with longer lifespans if it doesn't mean anything in the end.
It's not questionable at all. It's part of the goddamn lore.

>>54566130
>Elves could have a vastly different psychology for all you know
Yeah, for example they could be more innately magical and understand the winds of magic better... They are a goddamn fictional race, if I wanted to make them fast learners I could do that in muh settan, as long as I consider the consequences for the world-building. As I said, there is nothing innate in the concept of elves that makes them slow learners.
>It's part of the goddamn lore
And then they get retroactively nerfed because the fact that with greater experience comes greater power would tip it over in favor of races with greater lifespan, but we still have the greater lifespan because someone else did it years ago. They might as well stop with the 700 years, because as I said, it doesn't mean anything if the narrative doesn't pay respect to it and thinks things through.

>>54566269
I think you just want elves to be better users of magic. Too bad that's not the case overall.

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>>54566284
Not an argument.

>>54566436
Definitely an argument

>>54566478
>I think you just want elves to be better users of magic
Definitely not an argument.
>Too bad that's not the case overall
Also not an argument when we discuss if they SHOULD be better mages. Fuck, I'm not even OP. You certainly did not refute any of the points I made.

>>54566527
>elves are better than humans
>humans are better than elves

pick one

>>54566599
Anon, this is pathetic.

>>54566625
Do not be afraid. I want to see where your bias lies.

I always saw it like this. Races like elves produce the most spellcasters. They have a natural affintiy to it, and are pretty damn good at it. Humans produce far less, but those that come out have the hunger and the ambition that elves sorely lack, mainly because humans die of old age before elves testicles even start to drop.

Basically, it's ambition, and pushing the boundaries of what can and should be done. Also, like in various source materials, elves that push the boundaries and do shit they are not supposed to do (like Irenicus in BG2), tend to become obscenely powerful mages.

tl;dr, humans get shit done because they are more driven and willing to do whatever it takes.

>>54566637
So you can turn it into an argumentum ad hominem? Nah, let's discuss arguments instead. I'm not asking you of your bias as well.

>>54549530
Imagine if he had a real weapon.

>>54566679
I will gladly showcase my bias if you show me yours, baby.

>>54566654
This is basically the case in D&D

Though humans have higher power caps than elves, apparently.

>>54552181
Last time I played Warcraft, night elves couldn't be mages. Did they change this?

desu I prefer elves being better swordsmen like in Warhammer Fantasy and LotR

What are some fantasy settings where elves are better than humans at magic?

>>54568130
Tolkien.

>>54568130
Warhammer Fantasy, TES.

>>54568163
>Warhammer
Definitely, assuming the humans not using dark magic, of course. They can match the elves using that.

>TES
It's more well rounded.
Humans can match the elves.

>>54568194
>Humans can match the elves
If you have millions of individuals and thousand years of history you will have humans matching Mer by mer(e) chance. Some anon in this thread mentioned all the famous wizards and the Altmer were in the majority, almost double all the other races. Altmer are the better wizards.

>>54568163
Fat toad priests are better wizards than the elves in WHF

>>54568218
If we go by numbers, certainly.
The Altmer aren't alone on this either. The Dunmer and other, rather more extinct Mer have displayed remarkable magics as well. I can agree to all of that.

But if we look at individual potential, humans have matched them. Indeed, the Einstein of mages was a Nord.
After a certain threshold has been reached, the amount of mana in your veins is irrelevant.

>>54568224
>What are some fantasy settings where elves are better than humans at magic?
>elves
>humans
I don't if this is always some lizardfag feeling insecure. There is no need for that.

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>>54568241
Yes, I am an insecure lizardfag. I have to boast about my fat frogs at every corner.

>>54568239
>After a certain threshold has been reached, the amount of mana in your veins is irrelevant.
Mer also have more INT and WILL on average in every game until they got rid of it.

>>54568296
Still irrelevant after a certain point. Racial statistics don't work like that in the long run.

Just look at D&D

>>54568328
It apparently doesn't matter if you have a special snowflake character written into the setting that the gameplay would never be able to accurately portray. I'm just looking at their baseline and can deduce from that that Mer are the better wizards and the only way for some human to be better than all Mer is through plot armor.

>>54568377
>I'm just looking at their baseline and can deduce from that that Mer are the better wizards and the only way for some human to be better than all Mer is through plot armor.

Except this isn't the case both gamewise and lorewise. Stop being a bigot.

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>>54546698
>I only notice Warhammer elves being better than humans yet for some reason humans are still just as good if they use dark magic AKA old man Nagash as prime example.

Nagash is the exception to the rule and arguably the greatest master of magic there ever was, including allowing for slaves to Chaos, skaven, pepes, and elves. He's a freak, not a norm.

>>54568406
>Nagash is the exception to the rule and arguably the greatest master of magic there ever was
Wrong.

>He's a freak, not a norm.
All humans who practice dark magics are freaks, anon. Better to be a match for elves than to sulk around as inferior single color slaves.

>>54568395
Then go ahead and tell me what makes a human in the TES universe innately so much better at being a wizard than Mer.

>>54568415
>goes dark magic to be better than high elves
>but is now an insufferable edge lord
>"lewk at me guise"

Yeah, nice trade off.

>>54568422
*sigh*

You talk in one direct and are now heading into another direction.

>>54568422
He wasn't saying anything remotely like that, you nut. He's been saying that after a cap has been reached innate whatnot means little.

>>54568434
Power is power

>*sigh*
That's one less (You) from me.

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>>54568422
I bet you think sorcerers are better than wizards when you play D&D

>>54568456
But there is no logic to that. If we go by their stats but without a game arbitrarily giving a cap, when an Altmer and a Nord mage both equally and constantly raise their INT and WILL, the Altmer will always be ahead, plus his innate abilities and his extended lifespan. So, what is it in this case that makes the Nord the better mage?

>>54568523
>using game mechanics with lore

You're going nowhere.

>>54568544
So, do you agree with me that there is no logic? Because the topic of this thread is why elves SHOULD be better mages, not if they are. And I also used these game mechanics as an abstraction. You should be able to see what I'm conveying here.

>>54563396
Did you read the appendices and the notes? Gandalf went to Dol Guldur twice solo when Sauron was there, and the Council suspected he was therem before Hobbit.

>>54568523
>So, what is it in this case that makes the Nord the better mage?
Better? No. Can they be? Yes. It depends on the individual.

We're also talking lore here, not the games.

I agree.

That's why in my setting, an elf is (typically) an old magical human that has gained so much magical power and understanding in their life, they began to mutate; reversing their aging, giving them pointy ears, and granting them immortality.
People can have elfish or half-elfish parentage, but it only confers some of the superficial aspects of the mutation, pointy ears, and a prolonged lifespan. They don't think any different from regular humans, of course, having a parent or parents that are a few hundred years old and spend most of their time doing weird wizard shit will have an effect on your upbringing.

>>54568565
No. There is logic to it. It's just how the magic system works.

If you don't like it. That's not my problem.

>>54568565
>Because the topic of this thread is why elves SHOULD be better mages

And as 90% of the thread has said, there's no reason why elves SHOULD be better mages.

>>54568591
>And as 90% of the thread has said, there's no reason why elves SHOULD be better mages.
Because elves traditionally ARE ALL FUCKING MAGES. They're so magical, the fucking word ELF can translate to SHINING ONE.

>>54568565
>You should be able to see what I'm conveying here.
We don't.

You're assuming something that is counterproductive to how mages have approached magic in the TED cosmology.
Humans can and do match the elves with magic, and is quite noticeable when one bothers to notice the finer details of Skyrim's background.

>>54568569
>We're also talking lore here, not the games
The thread has been about crunch and fluff the whole time, this is not for you to decide. And as I said this was an abstraction to protray why inherent logic would make the Altmer the betetr mage.
> It depends on the individual
So it's completely arbitrary, doesn't follow internal logic and on the author to decide, gotcha.

>>54568582
>It's just how the magic system works
Then tell me how it works.

>>54568591
I don't even necessarily agree with OP and that it heavily depends on the setting but in the case of TES the setting is pretty clear to me. In this case I'm rather arguing that there is no reason for a nord to be a better mage.

>>54568611
>Because elves traditionally ARE ALL FUCKING MAGES

Yeah, no. They're all magical, they're not all mages.

>>54568625
TES elves are like the elves from D&D. Innate, magical and long lived.

Yet throughout Tamriel's history, humans have demonstrated that they are -at least- as capable.

If you haven't noticed this yet, well, you're either lacking in experience or biased to some degree.

>>54568626
>implying there's a difference

Get your head out of that retarded D&D straitjacket.

>>54568611
That... Doesn't really mean anything.

>>54568625
>In this case I'm rather arguing that there is no reason for a nord to be a better mage
Nords aren't better mages. But they can be, as innate talent doesn't matter in the long run. That's entirely his point.

>>54568668
>thinks he can define what 'mage' in all fictional settings

Oh please

>>54568646
All I'm doing is criticizing this writing as inherently inlogical and not reflective of the game mechanics.

>>54568669
And there is still no logic to this. And I still saw no reason to assume that a Nord can be a better mage than an Altmer other that a writer wants that to be a thing.

>>54568625
Since you're (foolishly) using gameplay as the basis for your argument(s), I might as well add that Bretons make better mages than elves min maxed.

And if we're talking Skyrim, then no single race is better when one abuses the power of cheesery.

*cough* Enchanting *cough* *cough*

>>54568703
So you're just mad that lore =/= gameplay?

That's how it works most of the time.

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>>54566779
He's referring to the Highborne, the precursors to the Night Elves. For a time they were intensely distrustful of all arcane magic, then decided after the Cataclysm that every edge they could get over the invading orcs (after their human allies started the war, but whatever) was worth it. It caused some schisms culturally in like one novel, but this being Blizzard, this was never addressed properly in-game or later on in the plot.

Of course, Warcraft's real issue as it pertains to this thread is that it has like thirty breeds of elf (Highborne, High Elves, Blood Elves, Felbloods, Nightborne, etc.) and each one is more "the greatest race of mortal spellcasters ever" than the last (and that's not even getting into the subfactions), and yet the brunt of the setting's best mage have been humans, essentially because Warcraft never truly got past the idea of Orcs vs. Humans. Zandalari Arcanitals are probably the coolest out of all them, but then I am a sucker for trolls and their goofy voodoo bullshit.

>>54568714
I'm slightly annoyed at you guys not arguing properly. So, for what reason should a Nord mage be a better mage than an Altmer mage? I'm still waiting.

>>54568720
There is no 'best elf race' in Warcraft.

They treat magic like a technology in that setting. It improves over time. The Highborne had the greatest source of Arcane power on the planet, but their craft was highly outdated to the Blood Elves.

Humans have refined magic more than any other according to Dalaran. It's why the Kirin Tor was so multi-racial. Everybody flocked to this organization to learn more.

>>54568748
>So, for what reason should a Nord mage be a better mage than an Altmer mage?
cuz lore. that's all you're going to get out of them. and they're not wrong because that's how canon works.

go complain to the writers. or just continue to accuse them of "not arguing properly", which they're not.

>>54568748
No. They are arguing properly. You're just a biased moron that hates conflicting gameplay.

Get over it, you swine.

>>54568764
Well, if the only defend they have for the lore is "lore" then they are not only defending shit writing but also using circular logic, and calling a writing a shit is part of this discussion.

>>54568758
You're right, the unnecessary hyping of whatever arcane-focused race happens to be in the spotlight extends to non-elves as well. Forgive me if I'm a bit jaded by Blizzard's insistence that "These guys are some of the best spellcasters in the world, you'd better watch your back while fighting them" every time an area has mobs that can drop an Arcane Missile or two.

Never forget that Ogre Mage-Emperor we kill on Draenor who, by Khadgar's own admission, has mastered forms of the arcane spellcasting that are on the fringe of Azerothian magical science, and then that shit just gets dropped.

Of course, until like a year ago Arcane magic was unstable and chaotic, then with the release of the last expansion the lore got switched to Arcane being the embodiment of law and order. Glad I stopped playing those games and trying to make sense of that writing clusterfuck.

>"HELP! My dragonborn can destroy mountains lorewise, but he can't do it in the game ?!?!?!?!?! "
>"RIOT"

Yep, we've been invaded by *that* kind of TES fag.

>"I killed this dragon priest that supposedly shattered an entire country when fighting against Miraak"
>"he could only cast room sized magics at me"
>"WHAT GIVES BETHESDA"

Of course elves are the greatest magic users. Don't you see how little they wear on average? The fact that they dress so skimpily only amplifies the fact that most of them must keep their skin bare and revealed, otherwise their magic won't work properly.

>>54546698
No, gnomes should be the best at magic, at least elves have DEX.

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>>54568415
You'd be hard-pressed to come up with a single example of a wizard as powerful as Nagash, who literally just fell short of godhood. Teclis doesn't compare (even reddit rarat gives him a run for his money) and neither do Chaos sorcerers. Pepes might be able to rival him, but who has the Magic stat of 5, hmm?

>>54569064
The only mages capable of curbstomping Nagash are lower-gen Slann.

But they're monstrous wizard-frogs, so it's not really fair for Nagash.

Nagash is an odd one, as well as all these humans that extend their lifespan. He was certainly a powerful wizard at his times as a human, but calling him a human wizard now is kinda stretching it.

>>54569259
He's human in the sense that he was human.

You don't call a lich a human, but they're still 'human'

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>>54546698
In most settings it's not that hard to justify based only in the numeric difference between the two populations. Even if the elves have a much higher "magic proficiency" mean, the sheer numbers of humans eventually cause a human to appear that outclasses every other elves.

When it comes to any race against humans, it is almost always writing induced bias. All beings with allegedly superior capabilities, have largely informed capabilities. They exist as flavor, and can be nulled or bypassed at a moment's notice. They are there to hype up something so that it seems more impressive when pat yourself on the back after overcoming them.