How can you justify warriors to be able to take on mages and

>>54533124

By not making stupid assumptions. In a fantasy setting, the scope of magic and the scope of martial skill can be determined entirely by the will of the author.

The idea that magic is limitless while mundane skill must remain bound by 'realistic' limits is a pointless double standard not even universally true amongst western fantasy settings, generally untrue in western mythology and a downright laughable concept if you expand your frame of reference beyond that.

>>54533124
Traditionally, mythical heroes were often blessed with divine superpowers, or simply gained magical gifts through their bravery or by murdering things who had magical items.

So the answer is a guy with a magic sword and a magic ring that makes him invisible can in fact very easily shank a top level mage who doesn't have an idea that there's an invisible bastard with a gutting knife that goes right through all magic gunning for him.

Does that help answer your question?

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>>54533124
Several ways.

>1. Stop playing DnD where wizards are basically gods. There are plenty of settings in which magic actually follows reasonable and balanced restrictions on what it can and can't do.

>2. Mages ar... you know what, fuck it, 1 is the best answer here, just go with that one. Even if you do play DnD or one of it's derivatives, keep in mind that the average human NPC is rarely over level 2 anyway and being able to cast even a minimum level spell is a huge fucking deal... but preferably just play a game that's not a DnD derivative. The change to something better is never going to happen unless people get over this abusive relationship with D20.

Maybe you should stop playing fucking retarded fuccboi's and start playing a sword-wizard. Or an axe-wizard. Or a hammer-wizard.

>>54533147
What if we talk about situation where both of characters lack specific items and just have their abilities?

>>54533124
How about coming from another angle like dragon age templars did. They have nullifying abilities. Not foolproof but usable in most cases.

>>54533124
My high level martial are basically Guts from Berserk, if the encounter doesn't start off dozens of feet between them the mage is getting bisected before he can finish casting his first spell.

>>54533124
It's easy
Here is a guy who can bend the rules of the universe to his will, teleport and create things out of thin air after some casting time and here is a guy whose swordsmanship defies the laws of physics and whose reflexes are faster than thought.

>>54533157
You know that doing shit like this makes people not listen to you right? Being a smug cunt who constantly talks down to people and calls something they like shit makes them play it more.

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>>54533124

Easy enough. Iron is a natural counter to magic.

>>54533186
You can say this as much as you want, but it didn't keep Pathfinder relevant. The rest of us are eagerly awaiting the day when DnD suffers the same fate, because my god, all it is at this point is dead weight dragging the entire hobby down. Look at any topic on /tg/ where it comes up, EVERYONE knows it.

player characters are heroes straight out of Bronze Age myth and legend in most games.
in other words
DEPENDS ON THE FUCKING SETTING
sage
0/10 made me reply

>>54533143
This.

Aside from that, this topic is low tier bait.

>>54533201
No, they should just bring back D&D4, that was a step in the right direction

>>54533124
>top level mage
If two people are of the same level they are equivalent. Thus, a level 100 fighter and a level 100 wizard should have a roughly 50/50 matchup. The only reason this doesn't happen is because people aren't intelligent enough to think about how a fighter may compete with a wizard despite myth being full of shit like this and bad game design

>>54533201
And? If you're waiting for someone to die you're not going to walk over and point and laugh now are you?

>>54533220
You are not wrong.

>>54533220
>>54533248

While you're correct, they'll never do it because it pissed off the 3.PF grogs. They're allergic to good game design.

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How about limiting the abilities of a wizard so that in order to throw bigger firewalls they need more trinkets? Don't they already need a spellbook for the spells just like the warriors needs equip himself with magic armors and weapons?

Make spell actually laborious and expensive, not something that you just give it away for free in a book with infinite pages. Make high level spells cost billions of coins in gold for the rare and magical tint alone and made them have to be writing down and drawing the spell for hours and hours until the thing is ready. D&D and derivatives are inspired by Vancian Magic
after all.

>>54533164
OK. Fighter lacks sword and magic items.
Wizard lacks spellbook and mystical arcane items to cast spells with.

Fighter beats the wizard to death with his two fists.

A big part of the problem is that most GM are hesitant to give fighters magic and powerful items while casters get them for free.

>>54533273
>>54533248
but if i wanted to play 4e id just go play WoW. I dont want my fighter to have heroic strike

>>54533157
You're one hell of an idiot if you're complaining about D&D, where swordsmen can likewise become gods and perform impossible feats.

Please, just put on a trip already so you can get banned. No one ever takes your bitching seriously.

>>54533316

>4e=WoW meme

>>54533306
And if anyone takes objection to that, imagine gandalf without his staff vs aragon without his broken sword. Tell me how fast THAT fight would be over.

>>54533316
>4e
>WoW
Go actually play both of those for a bit then come back
Don't fall for obvious meme

>>54533325

What edition? Because outside of the commonly derided 4th, no they fucking can't.

>>54533220
It honestly was, but the grogs and nostalgia fanboys whined and bitched endlessly because they were so used to the abuse that they couldn't even recognize what improved game design was.

>"WAHHH! I CAN'T BE BETTER THAN NEWBIES BY PLAYING A CLASS THAT CAN BE A GOD WHILE THEY UNAWARINGLY PICK ONE THAT'S USELESS?! WHAT DO YOU MEAN EVERY CLASS IS USEFUL NOW?!"

Why dont you level cap at 9 or 12?

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>>54533325
>Implying that it's just one person that's sick of DnD dominating the hobby, and not like 60% of /tg/.

Talk about one hell of an idiot, amirite?

>>54533348
strawmen do noone any favors

most grogs don't even accept the caster/martial disparity

i heard far more complaints about "hotbars" and the power format than balance

>>54533364

It's the D&Dtards latest fad. It's impossible to criticise D&D without being a troll, and D&D is so popular that it's impossible a large part of the board dislikes it, so they convince themselves it's a small cadre of trolls, organised and dedicated to... Shitposting about a game on the internet, for some reason. It's kinda weird.

>>54533361
Because level 5 is when the Fighter can swing his sword a little bit faster while the wizard learns to fucking FLY.

There is no role in the current edition of DnD (5e) that a non-caster character can fill better than a caster. I could almost say there's no role they can't be filled better by just wizards, but the one arbitrary limitation they decided to give wizards was a lack of healing magic so that clerics would still be useful I guess.

>>54533373

I do find that bizarre, how obsessed they get over formatting rather than how the rules actually function.

>>54533327
>>54533337
I actually have a theory that most of the few system war trolls really are just butthurt 4rries.

It largely lines up, especially with most of their anger being towards Pathfinder for killing their system, and a secondary hatred for 5e for being the nail in their favorite games coffin. There's some correlation with how active they are and how active the 4e general (when it exists) is, but it's all just speculation so far.

There's also that one GURPS guy who just hates everything about D&D just because it's D&D though, but he's so far gone he makes even other system war trolls seem sane.

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>>54533337
when the 4e preview came out we were flipping through it like "wow now every class has spell like abilities so theyre all kinda samey with different names for things, just like an mmo" then we all went back to playing WotLK where all the monsters are dnd monsters. it was a better tactical game, and easy to DM, but i hated playing it

>>54533339
>i don't know anything about D&D, the post

>>54533381
>There is no role in the current edition of DnD (5e) that a non-caster character can fill better than a caster.

As long as you ban things like skeleton hordes and probably sorclock, fighters can top single target damage charts.

It's not much, but it's something.

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>>54533378
The sad part is, half the people who actually DO play it still complain about how much it sucks in certain areas. Even on the 5e General thread, every time the skills system comes up, everyone unanimously hates it. Every time casters come up, everyone agrees wizards are overpowered, every time fighters come up people say they can;t do anything in or out of combat except hit stuff.

It's like "Goddamn, almost sounds like you wish you were playing a different game. Maybe give a few a try? Let go of your nostalgia goggles and maybe let something besides DnD have a chance to win you over with actual good design choices and cohesion?"

>>54533364
The one problem with this being a anonymous site is that there's no fucking way to gauge how wide-spread any belief is and there's no way to say if everyone anti-D&D post is from one dude, or every single argument against it is from a different person.

>>54533381
Rogues are better at stealth and assassination than even invisible wizards, and Fighters are much more important on the battlefield in 5e. In general, wizards do get more utility, but at the limit of not always having the right spell to cast or the resources to cast it.

>>54533396
>every class has spell like abilities so theyre all kinda samey with different names for things
But that's wrong
All classes are and feel different as long as you actually read the powers

>>54533364
>implying most people obsess about what games are popular
>implying most people on /tg/ don't just play D&D or their other favorite games and ignore all the system war bullshit

You need to get out of your own head some times.

>>54533407

Prove it. Because I have played martial characters in D&D. Nothing in the system supports the superhuman heights you claim they can achieve.

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>>54533124
A strong arm and a sharp blade is a powerful incantation

>>54533410
>Fighters are good if you just ban the classes that can do more than Fighters.

Yeah.... that's not an argument for good game design. Then you're just left with a bunch of classes that can only do damage and one class that can do damage the BEST.


In a well-designed game, every class should have unique roles, both in and out of combat. In DnD, characters with magic can just make themselves the best at ANY role with a spell or two. The sad part is, it's not even DnD as a whole that's broken, it's just the magic system that needs a severe overhaul so it doesn't invalidate fucking EVERYTHING ELSE simply by existing.

>>54533378
Nah man, you're just not as clever as you think you are, and you're just an obvious troll everyone recognizes.

If you wore a trip, how long do you think you could go before you got banned? Not very long, I wager.

>>54533427
>Rogues are better at stealth and assassination than even invisible wizards

>wizard turns his familiar invisible
>sends him in
>uses all the rest of his slots on casting explosive runes repeatedly through the familiar
>bombs the entire fucking building

yeah, sure

>>54533441
I guess you're just going to have to look like an idiot then.

I'll be looking at the variety of superhuman feats that people have access to as early as level 1, and not even mention anything involving epic levels or that you can LITERALLY become a god. I don't think it's worth discussing those sorts of things with a troll like yourself.

>>54533444
gonna need some proof

>>54533445
Yes. The rogue is actually still better at stealth than an invisible familiar, largely thanks to his skill perks.

>>54533478
Put on a trip, keep shitposting like you do, and we'll see how long it takes for you to get banned. That'll be the proof.

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>>54533467
And yet most of those "superhuman feats" still give a player less in the way of options and roleplaying agency than a good selection of level 1 wizard spells.

>>54533331
Gandalf mostly sword-fought, though. He rarely used magic

>>54533497
Wow, those goalposts really are mobile aren't they.

>>54533479
You don't even need invisibility.

Who the fuck is going to suspect a bird? A bat? A cat? A rat?

They can essentially hide in plain sight. And if shit hits the fan? Even if they can't just fly away... Fuck off to a pocket dimension.

Meanwhile the rogue gets caught? Whelp, I guess we gonna need a rescue party now.

>>54533521
>Moves the goalposts
>Gets an answer related to the new goal
>WELL YOU'RE JUST TROLLING SO I DON'T NEED A COUNTER ARGUMENT!

This is another reason people are sick of DnD fanboys, can;t even muster up logical arguments to defend their shit system. Probably because there are none.

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>>54533545
Come to 5e General sometime, there's a guy who constantly bitches about Druids being OP for this very reason.

He's not wrong either.

>>54533442
Seduction skill helps, too.

>>54533546
Wow, you really are just an upset troll. Someone countered your divergent point bait, and you fly into a rage? Classy.

>>54533512
And that is why he'd get his ass beat by Aragorn.

This isn't rocket science, folks.

Let's try another then. Sampson vs Moses, let's get biblical. Who would win in a throw down? Sampson killed a thousand men with a jawbone, Moses parted the sea. Who would win in a fucking fight?

>>54533563
I check in sometimes, usually after UAs.

It's not worth having the tab open, the discussion is usually circular/repeating itself.

Druids at least have a limit to their ability, and put themselves in danger.

A fucking familiar is 10 gold a pop (with the startup cost of buying it for like 50?) and 10 minutes to conjure. It's like 1/10th of his out of combat features.

Expertise is the main "ribbon" feature of the rogue and all it does is give him 10-30% extra chance to not fuck up a thing the caster doesn't even roll for.

>>54533467

Prove it. Everything else is just empty words.

>>54533619
>And that is why he'd get his ass beat by Aragorn.

Gandalf is a half-angel.

He'd absolutely demolish Aragorn's tender elven blooded boipussy.

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>>54533479
>Rogue can hide really good if it's dark out.
>Wizard can literally use magic to turn into a perfect copy of anyone or anything that would have the authority to be there or not raise suspicion, without needing any skill in Disguise or Deception.
>Wizard also has invisibility, shadow cloaks, spells to raise his Dexterity, and a dozen other options if he doesn't wana take the shapeshifting route.
>"Yeah man, the rogue is totally better at stealth and has more fun and creative options to use.

Anon pls.

>>54533651
A rogue can literally do all that if they are an arcane trickster.

>>54533617
I'm still waiting for an actual counter-argument from the DnD table.

>>54533666

You aren't going to get one.

At this point I think they're actually sincerely delusional, having thought themselves into a corner that any critique of D&D must be trolling and therefore they have no obligation to rationally consider or respond to any of it.

>>54533657
>Limited to Illusion and Enchanting magic (neither of which allows shapeshifting)
>Almost rarely ever allowed to take spells outside of those schools
>Still way worse at them than wizards with less spell slots to fuel them.

OK.

>>54533677
Dude, you moved the goal posts, he answered you, and you're refusing to acknowledge it. Do like >>54533666 said and give an actual counter-argument or fuck off back to your containment thread.

>>54533706

His answer amounted to 'yes there are', before excusing himself from having to give any proof.

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Give him AAP dummy dums!

>>54533619
Gandalf would wreck him.
Remember that Gandalfs mission is only that of guidance. He's not really allowed to use his powers as the last time they had an all out war with the powers of darkness bringing all their magics to the table they destroyed most of a continent

>>54533175
Dragon Age Templars are a horrible example, because Templars are basically just-above-the-threshold-mages that are trained to believe that they're warriors, and that all their magic is actually anti-magic.

>>54533143
thread over

>>54533666
You already got one, Satan, and nine swords didn't even need to be mentioned.

Man, you system war trolls are really off point today.

>>54533858
Is it really a system war if you don't mention other systems?

>>54533858

If you're referring to >>54533467 then no, that doesn't count. Saying 'You're wrong and I don't need to prove it' is not an argument.

>>54533410
D&D damage is irrelevant in combat vs save or suck.

Compare this to gurps, anima, sos, warhams. Damage is relevant because you start to fucking suck dick omce damaged. Hell in one of those just giving the state of pain will make casters useless to outright unable to cast without dying.

>>54533848
It would be, except for that whole "will of the author" part, see the "will of the author" in the most popular games on the market is "LOL MAGIC CAN DO EVERYTHING!"

People aren't wrong for wanting something else to get popular, even if their frustration means they express it with salt and vitriol.

>>54533124
Go read some Conan (like the real Robert E. Howard stories), he kicks wizard ass constantly.

>>54533895
See >>54533888

Yes, Conan is the kind of thing people WANT, but unfortunately most popular Tabletop systems don't deliver on that. They'd rather fall back into wanking over all the cool shit they can make magic do without really considering how that affects everything else in the game. Rule of Cool > Intelligent/Coherent world-building.

>>54533124
By instead of making your PC warriors be Stormtrooper #457 be more like a Greek Hero

>>54533124
the warrior swings his sword with the dangerous force of a nuclear bomb

>>54533143
once again fpbp
/thread

>>54533865
The issue with other systems is that they're not really popular enough to get a response. Saying GURPS is tedious or that ST is beyond broken almost feels like kicking a lame dog, and you're really rolling the dice to see if anyone would actually disagree with you.

But bringing up a tired criticism, and the errantly applying it to D&D? No shortage of people willing to call you out on being wrong there.

There's much worse games than D&D out there. But, none let you spew out bait so readily, and I'm willing to bet that in an alternate universe, where D&D wasn't the most popular game, you'd love it and hate whatever happened to be the most popular. No way to prove that, obviously, but such is the nature of an argument-seeking troll.

>>54533913
It doesn't change the fact that mechanically you have very little in the way of options for actually expressing that, other than feats and abilities that make you better at dealing damage and nothing else. A melee character has maybe 3 or 4 choices in combat if he's lucky and 1 or 2 out of combat. Conversely a mage has dozens of unique spells that could affect the entire flow of combat every turn, and even more to handle obstacles in unique or interesting ways out of combat.

Making fighters stronger doesn't change the fact that the popular systems and their derivatives lock all the major options for interacting with the game world behind magic, and the few times they're not, there's still usually a magic option that does it better.

>>54533874
>it doesn't count

Yeah, it does. Superhuman from level one on, and you can literally become a God in the end. What's there to even debate?

>>54533959
>Is it really a system war if you don't mention other systems?
>let me mention other systems...

I think you missed my point.

>>54533978

See >>54533967 because it kinda unintentionally answers your argument.

>>54533978

The complete lack of evidence behind your assertion.

Prove it. Cite something from the SRD, provide a screencap of a pdf, fuck even paste some text. Provide some evidence to convince me otherwise.

>>54533967
sometimes i wonder if people here overstate the divide

a DnD poll, from the game people claim is unbalanced, had fighter as the most popular class, wizard was fourth
the gaps between the classes were also fairly small

so it seems like this problem is specific mostly to 4chan

>>54533909
I can agree with that. This will get some people's panties in a twist, but that is why I'm leaving DnD. I've had a lot of fun playing dnd over the years, but in a couple weeks I'll be running my first ever game with a non-dnd system, and hopefully that will help.

>>54533124
As has been said a million times, if you want your top level mages to be nuclear bombs and you don't want warriors to be relegated to pointlessness, then those same warriors should be able to parry/tank nukes

Mages teleporting everywhere mid combat? Warriors move at blinding speeds by default

The long and short of it is that it is mind-numbingly easy to put mages and fighters at the same power level, pretty much regardless of what that power level is and only the terribly unimaginative incapable of seeing anything beyond a fairly narrow and frankly uncommon scope could possibly be confused by this.

Sage cause the meme is stale

>>54534015
Fighter is popular because people WANT to play badass swordsmen.

Then they actually do it and find out that 90% of their gameplay is "I attack again" and get frustrated that they can't really do much more than that, unless they have magic items that replicate things the magic classes can already do. Hell, even *I* want fighters to be badass and cool, but mechanically they're just a slog to play in DnD. I have way more fun playing a wizard or a sorcerer even though the fantasy of guy who can shoot fireballs doesn't appeal to me nearly as much as that of the badass heroic warrior.

>>54534054
>90% of their gameplay is "I attack again"
If players are shit and/or DM is shit, yeah.

>>54533994
Read Deities and Demigods. Becoming a God can be done in a number of ways. There's also canon examples of warriors becoming deities, like the Red Knight of Faerun.

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>>54534015
If I play a shooter game and have a character that gets a rocket launcher that can kill everything in one, chances are I'm going to play it once and then wana play a character with a more reasonable gun.

It doesn't change the fact that the munchkin using the rocket launcher class is way more powerful than me and will probably ruin my experience if they're in the same game as me.

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>>54533491

>>54534080

How is that in any way related to Fighters as a class and Martials as a concept?

All of that is equally available to Wizards, and they get access to all of that stuff on top of their already powerful magic.

>>54533124
By not having a badly made setting where mages can do basically anything by wiggling their fingers.

>>54533124
It can work because the sword can cut meat and wizards tend to be made of meat.

>>54534134
Why do you keep trying to move the goalposts every time you get spanked?

Oh. I forgot. Here's your (you) and goodbye.

>>54534183
You can't call it "moving the goalposts" when you're the one who keeps changing the question. People are merely replying to the """arguments""" you put out.

Goodbye though. Don't come back, please.

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>>54533124

Warriors take action for patron Wizards and other mages, these patron wizards give the warriors the tools they need to kill other wizards that are the patron's enemies.
Why do you think shit like magic swords exist? So that wizards can use that junk themselves? No! They make a powerful magic sword to aid the burly chump they con into killing their enemies.

>>54533331
Gandalf is basically a demigod who only LOOKS like a frail old man. So yeah, he'd kick Aragorn's ass.

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>>54534134
>ask for proof
>get proof
>b-b-but...

The whole point is that in D&D both end up ridiculous and superhuman. Saying wizards can also become gods doesn't refute him, it in a way supports him.

>>54533124
Martialfags are the only people who participate in these bullshit threads and are generally the ones who cry the loudest when WotC throws them a bone.
>Shat on Book of Nine Swords as being "weaboo fightan magic"
>Shat on 4e for being "WoW tabletop"
>Shat on the 5e Playtest Fighter for having superiority dice that refresh per round
And that's just the shit off the top of my head.

People basically want to be a Wizard without actually biting the bullet and being a fucking Wizard. They'll pretend that isn't the case but you never see people suggest reasonable changes to make Fighters viable without turning them into Son Goku the Swordsman in all but name.

You honestly want to know what will make Fighters more viable?
>Rework stats so there are reasons to invest in all stats, not just STR/DEX and CON.
>Rework the skill system so that each skill has a purpose in-and-out of combat.
>Rework weapons so each one has a purpose beyond "Deal XdY+Z damage"
>Fix the HP bloat.
Bam

>>54534297
>shitposting department

Fixed.

>>54533331
>And if anyone takes objection to that, imagine gandalf without his staff vs aragon without his broken sword. Tell me how fast THAT fight would be over.

Gandalf would win pretty easily. Fucker cast down Durin's Bane, and that was BEFORE Gandalf died for our sins.

Aragorn's cool, but he's just a Ragorn.

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>>54534297
Give me a system that is low fantasy in the context of something like the Conan setting.

Martial combat is the focus.
Magic is subtle and requires lots of preparation but still vital

>>54533637
>Gandalf is a half-angel.
He isn't half anything. He's fully maia. The only reason the rest of the fellowship is even needed is because he's restricted in when and how he can use his powers: He's SUPPOSED to be there just to advice people(although that changes somewhat when Saruman changes sides).

>>54534363

Iron Heroes. It's D&D, but with less wizards n' shit.

>>54534325
Not him but what's the point of bringing up how the martials can become gods if mages can also become gods, in addition to wielding cosmic power.

If I took a 10 and a 20 and doubled them both, the former is still going to be half as much as the latter.

I mean, what does a martial even gain from godhood? Monks become outsiders at level 20 (IIRC) and they're still the worse class in the game.

>>54534398
What do you mean "in addition"? Gods of any origin wield cosmic power.

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Why can't you just ban game-breaking spells? I have never seen fly incorporated to a videogame adaptation of D&D.

>>54534398
In your example becoming a god isn't x2 multiplier, it's +1000 increase. Compared to the abilities granted by godhood, your "cosmic power" is pretty much irrelevant.

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>>54534363

Magic theoretically already takes a lot of preparation in D&D. However, it is simplified into: "I rest and I wrote down the spell during breakfast", instead of "I spent 12 hours preparing the spells for later use".

>>54534297
>4e was born, lived and died
>5e was born and is still living
It's time that pic becomes "Have you tried not playing 3.PF"

>>54534417
A level 20 Wizard gains access to a spell that fundementally rewrites the reality around them based off a request and a few thousand gp worth of diamond dust.

That's before we add godhood to the mix, in which case their power increases exponentially on top of that.
>>54534436
1010 is still smaller than 1020 moron.

>>54534431
>Why can't you just ban game-breaking spells?
If only it were that easy.

>>54534453
5e suffers from a lot of the same problems as 3.PF did, it's just not as obvious an everyone's too bland for people to pick through the system and figure out what's broken about it.

>>54534363
I'm going to be running a game like that in Mythras. There are several magic systems, but the game is designed so the DM can tweak casting times and spell availability to make things how they want. I will have magic, but mostly with ritual length cast times, and requiring sacrifices to restore points.

>>54534455
>1010 is still smaller than 1020 moron.
Yes, but not by a lot
Which. was. his. fucking. point.

>>54534455

lvl 20 should be rare as fuck. Nobody should ever reach lvl 20. By lvl 20 the gods themselves have their eyes on you. You are a demigod, not a mortal.

>>54534380
>>54534487
I'll take a look at these.
I'm always on the lookout for low fantasy type systems with dangerous combat and subtle magic.

>>54534490
The thing is, the Fighter is considered a 10 even when he reaches the highest level possible because, honestly, the fuck does he get and how does godhood make him better?

You get to hit one extra time, deal a bit more damage, gain access to another feat?

Meanwhile, Level 20 Wizard is shaping Demi-Planes in his image while he's still a mortal and adding godhood on top of that, it's no contest.

No matter how many numbers you add, the Wizard will always be more effective than an equal leveled Fighter by default, simply because he has spells and the Fighter doesn't.

Kill the wizard first. If the enemy has even a neuron, they should always attack and incapacitate the wizard first. Who are you going to target firs, the armored dude or the skinny one with no armor but spells?

>>54534669
>the Wizard will always be more effective than an equal leveled Fighter by default, simply because he has spells and the Fighter doesn't.
If that is true, your system is shit
If their levels are equal, they should be on an EQUAL LEVEL in power

>>54534716
The funny thing is, if you do that then you just end up making martials even more worthless than they already are.

There are spells, even cantrips, that give mages added defenses in a pinch, in addition to utility that allows them to alter the flow of combat to their favor.

In comparison, the only reason for the martial's existence is to deal damage and take damage, so if the enemies are too far away to hit and they're focusing on the mage, the Martial's pretty much just standing around looking for something to do as the mage gets shit done.

Everything you do to counter the mage only makes the martials weaker, and this is by design.

>>54534669

Im pretty sure wizards suck at low level and it is not until much later that they dont surpass anybody.

>>54534754
>If that is true, your system is shit
Levels were never meant to be equal or an indication of power, 3.PF just fucked up and made everything equal without realizing the implications for doing so.
>>54534775
Wizards are only weak in the sense that they only get a handful of spells and even then, they can still end combat in a single round with something like Color Spray or Sleep.

Even then, barely even a mark against them, because at that level, the Fighter can get one-shot by a random crit and will be taking more rests than the Wizard anyways to restore HP.

>>54534804
>Levels were never meant to be equal or an indication of power,

Then why are they called levels?

They literally represented powerlevel forever (in fact, one explanation for their origin is how deep a level your character should go in a dungeon, IIRC).

>>54534820
>Then why are they called levels?
Because back then, it was your EXP total that determined relative power, rather than your level. That's why a Wizard leveled up every 2k EXP while a Rogue would level up every 1.2k EXP.

Weaker classes leveled up on less EXP but stronger characters gained access to more powerful options.

>>54533124
>Here is a guy who can bend the rules of the universe to his will
You're confusing wizards from the Genie in Aladdin. It's a bit of an odd mixup, considering there are actual wizards in Aladdin, one of whom wanted the Genie because it'd give him the power to rule the country.

>>54534849
But you're talking about a time where levels were explicitly different than they are now

>>54534849
>Because back then, it was your EXP total that determined relative power, rather than your level.

You describe how it wrked.

I know how it worked.

I want to know why they are called levels if they are aren't level, in your opinion.

Also, the XP tables were a fucking joke, the rogue at the very best was ahead in 2-3 levels, usually only 1. It's not like you had a level 20 rogue and a level 12 wizard in the same party if they got the same XP

>>54534867
I'm talking about how levels were SUPPOSED to function before 3.PF fucked it all up.

Back then, Wizards were powerful, but leveled up more slowly, so it was okay for a lightning bolt to deal something stupid like 8d6 and bounce off walls because by the time they got there, everyone else was like Level 7-9 (assuming my math is right).

Nowadays though, Wizards are still just as powerful but now, they appear to level up at the same rate as everyone else, which leads to the imbalance issues that people talk about.

>>54534804
>Levels were never meant to be equal or an indication of power, 3.PF just fucked up and made everything equal without realizing the implications for doing so.

They understood, and for the most part, the game ran fine for its first several years.

The issue is that the idea was for martials to be simple and easy to play, but spellcasters to be more challenging and more rewarding. The inherent issue is that over the years of people tearing into the system, the imbalances became more pronounced.

That's really it. Thankfully, hindsight is 20/20, so the more recent editions of the game tackled some most of the more important concerns, and the martial/caster disparity is a matter still open to debate, and in many ways leaning actually towards the martial side as far as combat strength is concerned.

>>54533967
>Greek heros
>Only good in combat
Fuck off

>>54534015
Just because people like something doesn't mean that something performs well. I like monks, a lot, and monks are crap in 3.PF.

>>54533143
Thread should have ended here

>>54534934
>I want to know why they are called levels if they are aren't level, in your opinion.
Thing is, they are levels, it's just that the costs to earn those levels is the same for every single class, rather than being done on the case-by-case basis.

If there was a system where Martials leveled up at twice the rate as Wizards and the HP totals were chopped down to a fraction of what they are now, martials would be much better off than how they are now.

>>54534999
But then OP wouldn't get the last word in.

>>54534956
>in many ways leaning actually towards the martial side as far as combat strength is concerned.
Martials were never slacking in the combat department, its always been the fact that combat was the ONLY thing they could do, and even in that context, only in a very specific way that boils down to "hit it until it dies."

Outside of combat, what does a martial bring to the table? Even in 5e, what does a martial have that doesn't boil down to an ability that only does good in combat?

>>54533433
Not that poster, I'm not familiar with 4e so correct me if I am misunderstanding. You talking about fluff? Because if you need fluff to make two things feel different I have bad news for you my dude.

>>54533124
Talismans/rune and other means to nullify magic.

>>54535102
No, the powers a fighter a wizard hasn't. The role (how those powers and features affect the game) of a fighter a wizard can't fill. They dont' have the same effect with different name and description, they have completely different effects but are gained at the same levels and int he same proportion. I hope you understand that.

In 3.5 a Crusader and a Warblade gain disciplines at the same speed and proportion, but their roles and how they play are different, they aren't the same class. Same with a Cleric and a Wizard, or a Paladin and a Hexblade.

>>54535002
You keep repeating yourself.

I'm asking if they are not meant to be equal, why are they called something that very strongly implies they are on the same even playing field (i.e. level).

>If there was a system where Martials leveled up at twice the rate as Wizards

Wouldn't it be easier to just make wizard levels half as strong as fighter levels instead of just giving double the levels to fighters?

>>54535210
>I'm asking if they are not meant to be equal, why are they called something that very strongly implies they are on the same even playing field (i.e. level).
For much the same reason why we still have alignment, it's a sacred cow and WotC doesn't want to kill it because then grogs won't buy their merchandise anymore.

So rather than either rebalance the leveling system or reinstating EXP requirements on some classes more than others, they'd rather everyone be at the same level without actually being the same level.

For fucks sake, by level 5-7, the average can fucking fly while most martial based casters are getting access to a second level spell, maybe.

>>54535076
They have great physical stats (fighters actually even get more opportunities to improve these stats than any other class) and 5e's new difficulty scales means that they really can do all sorts of amazing things. It really just comes down to imagination, inspiration, and creativity.

A wizard, for example, might be absolutely fucked if he encounters a challenge that requires swimming underwater and doesn't have the proper spell prepared. Or climbing up a cliff if he's out of spell slots. Or any of the other millions of physical challenges that a wizard might not be able to predict and plan for that are routinely encountered in a dungeon.

When you've got a martial, you've got a super-powered human with Conan-like strength and stamina. That's a fair amount of utility there, and if you are having a hard time understanding that or figuring out what a higher-than-peak-peformance person can do, it would be good to read books featuring these types of heroes.

Or, you can play a spellcaster if you prefer that play style. It's really up to you.

>>54535102
>You talking about fluff? Because if you need fluff to make two things feel different I have bad news for you my dude
No, I'm not
Fluff and crunch in 4e are separated, especially when talking about powers (which is why 4e is so easy to refluff but that's another discussion)
What I actually mean is that all the spells of all the classes have the same template but not the same words written in them
Like, you can find two powers that deals your weapon+STR mod damage but one is Strength vs AC and the other is Dexterity vs Reflexes
Or two powers that deal the same damage and check against the same defense but have different keywords, like the first has Rattling and the second has Invigorating
Thanks to those keywords and your character passive abilities, you know that hitting with the Invigorating power grants you temporary health and hitting with the Rattling power scares your target, giving bonuses to anyone attacking them

So you need to actually read precisely each power to know them and not just look at the template and the number of dice

>>54533124
In every setting I run, there is no such thing as a mundane warrior. In a magical world, everything and everyone is magical. Powerful warriors are capable of superhuman feats of strength, skill and endurance: crushing through castle walls with their fists, falling unharmed from impossible heights, using their inherently magical nature to execute weapon techniques channeling the strength of fire or the might of storms. They own artifacts of incomparable power and are capable of doing things that define legends.

I'd ask if you've tried not playing D&D, but this is already low-quality bait, so just enjoy another (you).

This thread is a perfect example of why I'm glad to have experience with Rifts. 'Martial classes' and mages are pretty balanced against each other and the game has a huge number of options to display it.
Seriously, if DnD is your only background in TTRPGs, gather more experience in other systems. DnD is constantly changing due to updates, new editions, splatbooks (dlc); some games got their formula right a long time ago.

>>54535301
Actually no, due bounded accuracy a wizard doesn't slack in swiming and climbing

>>54535274
But they did rebalance the level system. 5e is pretty well balanced, with only a few outliers (like the ranger needing a refurbishment).

You might want to actually try playing the game before you get consumed by your hypotheticals. It really sounds like you're just very detached from how the games run and what the balance really looks like.

>>54535335
Actually, yes. Try playing the game some time.

>>54535301
>It really just comes down to imagination, inspiration, and creativity.
So basically "Mother, May I?" with a lenient DM, gotcha.
>A wizard, for example, might be absolutely fucked if he encounters a challenge that requires swimming
Swimming in most cases fucked over martial classes the most since they had to take off their armor to not drown. Even then, bounded accuracy being the way that it is, the mage would actually still have a decent chance of swimming.
> Or climbing up a cliff if he's out of spell slots.
See above.
>That's a fair amount of utility there, and if you are having a hard time understanding that or figuring out what a higher-than-peak-peformance person can do, it would be good to read books featuring these types of heroes.
Thing is, if there's nothing mechanical to back it up, it might as well not even exist. I mean, reading Conan isn't going to make my Fighter suddenly amazing at finding traps, influencing others, or anything besides else fighting.

>>54535339
Different guy, and yes is way more balanced than 3.PF though it has its problems: monks being meh, rangers being crap, feats like SS and GWM that make other options being shit, Jump rules, etc and probably the worst offender for me: very few options that leave little to no room to customization as a player

>>54535376
Been playing for 2 years, even played playtest since the begining. No, just because you have a +5 and I have a +1 doesn't make a meaningless difference, specially when the profiency is what matters the most and when some casters get specializations that make them actually be better at athletics than any fighter ever for example.

>>54534178
laughingskeletons.png

>>54535339
>5e is pretty well balanced
5e is only balanced well when compared against 3.PF, compared to 4e, it's actually a step back in terms of balance.

For example, the book says that you can't stack spell effects if they have a duration of (concentration) and you'd think "oh, so spells that last longer than a round require concentration, that sounds reasonable."

Until you look through the book and realize that not every spell with a duration longer than a round actually requires concentration, so you can have a mage with mage armor, shield, blink, and mirror image if you wanted to and you'd end up being just as hard to hit as an equal leveled Fighter, with the added bonus of having additional layers of protection on top of what you have.

And that's just one of many weird magic abuses you can do in 5e once you delve deeply enough.

>>54535381
Oh.... oh, I didn't realize you were a troll until now.
Man, you guys should wear trips or something, because I was really thinking that you wanted to actually understand something about the game, but it's clear that you're just deliberately trying to avoid understanding really basic things.

>So basically "Mother, May I?" with a lenient DM, gotcha.
>Thing is, if there's nothing mechanical to back it up, it might as well not even exist.

Whew lad. Read the book a little before you think about trying to troll again. You'll do a better job of not revealing yourself if you don't need to dismiss common knowledge in order to continue your bait.

I like the way anime and manga tend tend to handle this, make it so there is no cap on human ability, martials can learn to jump good, run up vertical surfaces and throw cannon balls faster than actual cannons if you train hard enough.

>>54535475
You can use Greek mythos for that, there're several NON demigod heros that were able to do stuff like that because they trained hard.

>>54535446
>Until you look through the book and realize that not every spell with a duration longer than a round actually requires concentration, so you can have a mage with mage armor, shield, blink, and mirror image if you wanted to and you'd end up being just as hard to hit as an equal leveled Fighter, with the added bonus of having additional layers of protection on top of what you have.

I think you've made this same exact argument in another thread. I don't understand why you're repeating it, because it was really firmly shut down then, with the obvious, basic argument being "spell slots exist." It really just sounds like you think up theories and criticisms but have never actually played the game.

Is this what you guys do all day? Recycle old troll posts?

>>54535493
Provide sources.

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>>54533124
Depends on the setting.

In most legends where a wizard fights a warrior, the wizard loses. Warriors deal with magic by having unbreakable wills, or better 'low' wit, or just by being super humanly tough. Magic may require things like special times, or only work on specific people, or require pacts with malevolent spirits. In modern contexts, magic might not have much blunt strength or fail when faced by righteousness and heroism, or it might be super dangerous to use liberally, or it might be slow (to learn and use) and require time, concentration, and reagents. Before 3.5 started bringing MTGfags into PnP, this last option was actually how D&D did it.

See: Beowulf and The Odyssey, most Norse myth.

>>54535466
Different guy but look
Being a wizard doesn't turn you into a less imaginative player than a fighter, so BOTH classes have the same potential imagination.
Now, Wizard is backed by mechanics due spells allowing you to do 1001 stuff, Fighters don't

So Fighters: Imagination
Wizards: Imagination+Mechanics

Imagination + Mechanics > Imagination. Always.

Now, in 5e the gap is smaller than in 3.PF, that's true, though there're still problems

>>54535466
>it's clear that you're just deliberately trying to avoid understanding really basic things.
What, because I acknowledge that something that depends on the DM's mood isn't really a viable measure of how useful one can be?

I could technically decimate an army with one sword swing if the DM is okay with it, or I could end up never hitting a dude because I tried to throw my sword and the DM made me auto-fail because "swords aren't made for throwing."

If we're going to talk about relative power, we should focus primarily on what the class can do by default, not on some ephemeral concept that boils down to nonsense words like "imagination" or "Creativity."

And for the record, Imagination favors the mage too, because you can get away with a lot of bullshit with careful wording.

>>54535502
Cadmus, Diomedes, Atalanta, Castor (or was Troy? they were both twins but one has human and the other a demigod, dunno which is which), Ajax, etc

Then you can go to other mythos like Beowulf, Sigurd, Cuchulain, etc

>>54535495
>with the obvious, basic argument being "spell slots exist."
The focus should be on the fact that such a thing is possible at all.

Think about it, what's the point of introducing a mechanic to limit the amount of active spells a mage can stack when they allow some spells to be stacked anyways?

>>54535570
Because it's gotta feel like D&D, man.

>>54535556
>Troy
Kek, meant Pollux, fuck Face Off, you ruined me

>>54535522
But, the fighters get imagination with the mechanics to support them as well. Why are you acting like 5e isn't actually specifically geared towards making ability checks more prominent and important?

It's starting to sound like you're one of those people who think that 5e plays like older editions, without really understanding the dramatic shifts in play structure it went through.

Yes, wizards get a few spells they can cast at the cost of reducing their potential combat efficiency that might solve a specific issue. And? If your desired solution is for martials to also get spells or special abilities, they can get those if the player wants. I honestly don't even understand what you could possibly be complaining about at this point.

Hell, Barbarians can get so angry they can fly in 5e.

>>54535446
>Until you look through the book and realize that not every spell with a duration longer than a round actually requires concentration, so you can have a mage with mage armor, shield, blink, and mirror image if you wanted to
And then the combat is over because whole the mage was casting all these defensive spells the fighter walked up already having those defenses and killed everything with his 8 attacks

>>54535570
Is your whole gripe really just against spells in general?

I guess you should just not play with spellcasters then if you don't like them? There's nothing stopping you from doing that, and that still leaves a fair amount of classes to play.

>>54535662
You can cast Mage Armor at the start of the day since it lasts 8 hours and shield can be cast as a reaction when needed.

At most, you're spending two turns to buff yourself and both blink and mirror image are generally enough on their own to prevent at least one attack from going through.

>>54535657
>But, the fighters get imagination with the mechanics to support them as well.
Not really, the skills section is incredibly vague at times when determining what counts as what DC and each skill is similarly vaguely explained in less than a paragraph.

Meanwhile, looking at each spell, they not only include all the useful information like duration and costs, but they also include a blurb that tells you everything you'd need to know about the scope of the spell.
>Hell, Barbarians can get so angry they can fly in 5e.
Yeah, at level 14, when most campaigns end around level 10-12 and the mages have had the ability to fly since level 5-7.

>>54535682
>Is your whole gripe really just against spells in general?
My gripe is that most of the bullshit that they included to stop mages don't even fucking work.
>Oh cool, each stat has a saving throw, too bad only half of them are actually useful.
>Oh cool, spells with duration can't be stacked, except for when they can
>There's nothing stopping you from doing that
Except for the fact that magic takes up the most room in the PHB? It's obvious where they put the most time in and cutting that away just leaves an otherwise unremarkable system.

>>54533967
We don't know if OPs playing D&D. If he's playing a point-buy system, he could easily make a martial that can kill casters of equal point cost.

>>54535745
You're really stretching my suspension of disbelief here.
Not really? Incredibly vague? If those are your arguments, I'm going to have to ask you to actually play the game, since it sounds like you simply don't even understand the basics of playing it.

If your whole issue is "spells have extremely specific uses while ability scores have more broad applications", I don't even know where to start explaining how dumb you sound.

>Yeah, at level 14, when most campaigns end around level 10-12 and the mages have had the ability to fly since level 5-7.

How did I know that you would nitpick like this, in as pointless a side direction as possible? Oh, it's because you're just here to argue, not to make sense.
Want to know when a barbarian can have access to spells? Level 1 if they wanted to.

>>54534363
Rolemaster.
GURPS.

Even fucking anima does it better than D&D.

>>54533124
>How can you justify warriors to be able to take on mages and wizards lorewise?
Magic.

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>>54535877
>>54534487
>>54534380
Has anyone played with Barbarians of Lemuria? How is it?

Also Riddle of Steel is the only sword and sorcery type RPG I've played that isn't DnD.
How does the successor "Blade of the Iron Throne" measure up in comparison?

>>54534451
Not really, Preparing the spells and having them pop out on the fly isn't the same thing as preparing oils, herbs, etc on a drawn magical circle where you perform a ritual for 8 hours and then sure enough if you did it right, the next day there's a rock slide, a storm, or temporarily paralyzing someone for about an hour at a predetermined date in the near future.

>>54534451
>Game now becomes waiting around for the wizard to prepare spells
Sounds great. Maybe we can play being the wizard's personal assistants next

>>54533407

I've been playing since 2ed, and there is a point around level 8-9 where wizards start to carry their whole party and martial characters almost completely fall off.

A low levels sure, fighters, barbs and monks are really great, but once you hit the mid-game it's completely wizards and CoDzilla (ever wonder why those terms were coined?)

Anyways, playing low magic settings with limits on magic is far more fun.

>>54536011
>Not really

Can you argue at all without sounding so inane?
D&D actually includes plenty of those super long rituals, including spells and rituals that take more than a day or even a week to perform, such as Apocalypse from the Sky or creating a bogun.

Just because you don't like the idea of mages being more than background prop pieces doesn't mean all spells need to be absolutely useless in battle.

>>54533220

aspects of 4th were good, while aspects of it weren't. I see it no different than 3.x

healing surges and other garbage like that actually really hurt the flavour/appeal of a lot of classes, but then having leader classes also brought a lot of uniqueness to the game and offered more customization to your party.

>>54536097
>and monks
...depends on the edition? I played monks a lot, is may fav class, well, concept, and they suck at any level in 3.PF (unchained changed some of it but not much). In 4e they were super fun and effetive to play at their role (mobile martial controller mostly) and in 5e they're meh, not awful like in 3.PF, but are meh, stun guns mostly because they don't shine at anything else, specially damage and defense

>>54534855
>DnD wizards (which this thread is obviously about) get the ability to literally cast wish
>Not like genies
Hmm

>>54535875
>Incredibly vague?
Yes. It is incredibly fucking vague for what you're trying to do. Like if I was running a game and a level 10 Barbarian wanted to climb up a cliff in the middle of a storm, what would I set the DC as? Would it be "Hard" because he's trying to scale a cliff in the middle of a storm or would I set to "Easy" since he's a level 10 Barbarian with proficiency in climbing and such a feat should be easy for him to do?
>If your whole issue is "spells have extremely specific uses while ability scores have more broad applications"
The issue I have is that ability scores are generally left vague in how they're handled while spells are not only properly explained but also have room for imagination in what they can do.

Why can't skills have just as much detail put into them as spells do?
>How did I know that you would nitpick like this
It's not a nitpick. What's the point of having abilities like that if nobody is going to run a campaign for that long?

>>54536124
>healing surges and other garbage like that actually really hurt the flavour/appeal of a lot of classes
How do healing surges damage the appeal of some classes? I'm genuinely curious, I've never heard them described that way.

>>54536156
>Would it be "Hard" because he's trying to scale a cliff in the middle of a storm or would I set to "Easy" since he's a level 10 Barbarian with proficiency in climbing and such a feat should be easy for him to do?

Oh wow. I just thought you were trolling, but you legitimately don't understand how DCs work.

My bad. See, DCs aren't relative to the character, and the DC actually helps explain and illustrate how difficult the task is. How steep and slippery is the cliff? It can vary, and the DM is the one who decides just how bad the storm is or how sharp the angle of the cliff is by saying the DC is 15 or 20 or higher.

It's all written right in the book. It'd do you good to actually read it.

> It's not a nitpick. What's the point of having abilities like that if nobody is going to run a campaign for that long?

Right now I'm running a campaign that started level 3 and they're now level 15, and judging by how things look we're actually likely going to play up to 20 even though I initially thought we would end around 15. So, as far as "nobody" goes, you might want to dial back your hyperbole if you're literally talking to someone that disproves your attempted argument.

>>54536309
different guy but every year wotc runs a survey and every one of them states than the average game ends before 12th level. this has been oddly consistent for all editions since 3.0 and is the reason they dont care about capatones and why monk capstone is shit compared to druids for example, because polls prove those games are a minority not worth thinking about

>>54534716
ahh, yes geek the mage with a living blender of cyber blades and bullets

>>54536429
A minority of D&D games still ends up being more than the games of most other systems.

Even if only 20% of 5e games go beyond 12th level, that still more games than every non-D&D system. If it's only 10% or even only 5%, we've still got more games than any non-top 10 system.

That's really far from nobody.

>>54535556
wasnt cu a demi god by virtue of being the song of the god of light or am I mixing him up?

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>>54536309
>It's all written right in the book.
This is the entirety of the rules for ability checks and how they work. It basically boils down to "eh, just choose what seems natural" without any real indication for what the DC's actually represent.
>DCs aren't relative to the character
They should, because what's natural for a Barbarian to do won't be as easy for a Wizard to do, and vice-versa.
>Right now I'm running a campaign
Stopped reading right here, your anecdotes have no bearing on the greater D&D community. If you don't believe me, pop over to /5eg/ and ask them how often their games tend to end.

Chances are, it'll be around 10-12.

>>54533143
first post...

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>>54536492

>>54533143
...best post.

>>54536101
>such as Apocalypse from the Sky
Wow, You had to spend 1-10 whole minutes depending on how big you wanted your spell to be.

>Just because you don't like the idea of mages being more than background prop pieces doesn't mean all spells need to be absolutely useless in battle.
When did I ever imply that?

Magic should be subtle and shouldn't be much different than what people would think as luck a lucky break or in some cases hypnotism, but it should also be kept incredibly important and vital.
Shit like throwing out a fireball should need 1-2 hours to setup and get ready.
The kind of magic that takes careful planning, and preparation (ambushes are really good) but even then isn't completely useless in a fight.
Typically a mage will use a sword, spear, missiles, or what magical effects they can muster on short notice in a surprise battle.

This type of stuff is my favorite and it's why I'm always on the lookout for new systems to try, it encourages my players to play smart and use combat as a last resort and any combat they do engage in they prepare for carefully if they have the time for it.

>>54536528
What? Explaining how "nobody" is far from nobody directly refutes the point the guy was trying to make. Admittedly, his point wasn't a particularly good one to begin with, but dismantling seemed important to knock him off even the illusionary islands he's constructing for himself.

>>54533124
>Realistic Setting:
While mage wave his hands under the delusion magic is real, fight approaches him and stabs him in the heart / cut his head off with his sword.

>Fantasy Setting
Mage teleports 100 meters high in the sky and rain fireball over the fighter, who leaps from the cloud of smoke and fire using his superhuman powerful legs to hurl himself upwards near the speed of sound and cut the mage in half with his magic blade, since he wasn't expect fighter to learn how to 'Jump Good'.

In another Scenario, the mage summons a divine thunder capable pulverizing a blue whale into the fighters direction, who uses his magic mirrored shield to deflect it towards the mage who then dies of his own spell.

In another scenario, the mage begins a week long ritual to give the fighter a mild fever before the fighter punches him in the head several times and he dies of a concussion.

In another scenario, the mage flicks his fingers, thus evaporating all the conceivable multiverses without breaking a sweat. In that scenario the mage w...OH NO THE FIGHTER HAS CUT THROUGH NONEXISTENCE WITH HIS SWORD AND KILLED THE MAGE!

>>54536507
Unless they changed it, he's believed to be the reincarnation of the God Lugh in mortal body.

>>54536574
That's some homebrew version of the spell you googled up and didn't check.
The actual spell has a casting time of a day.

http://dnd.arkalseif.info/spells/book-of-vile-darkness--37/apocalypse-from-the-sky--131/index.html

>>54536671
There it is, google has lied to me.
However it's still a game where you fling out stuff like fireballs,storns of acid, summoning monsters, and lightning bolts with only 1 round of action

>>54536492
If you go by roll20 polls, no, 20% of D&D is less than other games games

And what argument is that? how that disproves that wotc don't care about high levels because they themselves believe are not going to be played and that's why they aren't going to help monk or nerf druid? srly, what kind of post is this? what are you trying to accomplish?

>>54536574
>Shit like throwing out a fireball should need 1-2 hours to setup and get ready.

It literally does. It takes a wizard at least an hour to prepare his spells in the morning, where he casts everything except the final trigger. The only thing is that the wizard completes the spell right before he casts it, because that actually makes it useful for combat.

>The kind of magic that takes careful planning, and preparation (ambushes are really good) but even then isn't completely useless in a fight.

It makes it next to useless in an actual game outside of demolition purposes. Try actually playing a game sometime.

>>54536630
Original premise >>54536156
>What's the point of having abilities like that if nobody is going to run a campaign for that long?
Where you started >>54536309
>So, as far as "nobody" goes, you might want to dial back your hyperbole if you're literally talking to someone that disproves your attempted argument.
Then someone responded >>54536429
>different guy but every year wotc runs a survey and every one of them states than the average game ends before 12th level
This is where you are now >>54536492
>Even if only 20% of 5e games go beyond 12th level, that still more games than every non-D&D system. If it's only 10% or even only 5%, we've still got more games than any non-top 10 system.

So yes, you did in fact move the goalposts and are attempting to deflect by focusing on semantics and D&D's popularity, without taking into account that the original premise was asking why certain abilities are available at 14th level when most games won't go further than level 10-12 at best.

>>54536718
And it also has super long ritual magic if that's your taste.

>>54536163

because everyone becomes the same coloured utility knife, or has some self-healing which ultimately just diminishes the unique flavour of other classes that specialize in support or healing.

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>>54536738
20% of 50% of all games is 10% of all games.

The only game with more than 10% would be Pathfinder. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear, but if you want to say that 10% of all games is "nobody" or an insignificant number, than any game other than 5e and PF is insignificant.

>>54536795
Actually, healing surges LIMITED how much HP you could heal, not served as self-healing mechanic.

In fact, what you're thinking of is 5e, where they allow you to heal some HP whenever you take a long/short rest.

>>54533467
Are you the retard in that other thread claiming 3.PF martials are a match for Sidereal Exalted?

>>54533124
Just play gurps.


Mages are good but die just as good as the rest of us

>>54536762
What? The original guy tried to say nobody is going to run a campaign that long, and the rebuttal was "Plenty of people do run campaigns that long, even if its a minority of D&D players".

>>54536574
>magic should be subtle
Why? why should magic behave like you think it does?
you dislike the idea of a game where a wizard wiggles its fingers and something happens well what if I like it?
why don't you fucking play other games instead of just discussing something that's being discussed literally for years when the answers always comes down to "I don't like it and I think it should be different"

>>54536830
Considering there's no level cap and they can literally become gods, yes, 3.pf martials are more than a match for anything in Exalted. They might need to be level 80 or something ridiculous like that, but there's rules for going over 100.

>>54536858
1:10 is still fairly insignificant in the grand scheme of things when we're discussing about a base mechanic that most players will never get to use.
>>54536813
Also, I don't give a fuck about how popular D&D is in relation with other games, the original point had nothing to do with D&D's popularity and you're getting hung up on semantics because you know you can't disprove the fault in 5e's design.

If the game is designed around mages flying by level 7, then why does the Barbarian have to wait until level 14 to fly, especially when most players won't ever reach that level during most campaigns?

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>>54536901
>3.pf martials are more than a match for anything in Exalted.

>>54536747
>It literally does
Not really though.
As I've said before preparing spells in the morning and taking them with you to spit out on the fly isn't the same as preparing a site for the spell, preparing the ingredients, and then the actual act of casting it, all of which can take any variable of time depending on the spell.

>It makes it next to useless in an actual game outside of demolition purposes. Try actually playing a game sometime.

I have, quite a long time ago I've played around with completely scrapping wizard spellcasting and replacing it only with some option ritual casting rules I dug up which resulted in a lot of fun as it completely changed the way my players played the game, However DnD wasn't a good system for it so I ended up running a Riddle of Steel game for awhile which is better but still has issues.

The Conan movie has some easily recognizable examples of a Mage using magic on the fly without requiring a large amount of prep time would include Thulsa Dooms Polymorph into a snake, The snake arrow, and the charm he attempts at the end of the movie.
and an example of a more standard spellcasting would be Akrio resurrecting Conan

>>54536894
If you like it go for it.
High fantasy is kind of boring though in my opinion

>>54536858
Why are you keep bringing other games? 1 out of 9 games in D&D is something to be dismissed, yes, I don't care there're more games of D&D than of SHinc.

>>54536901
>I don't know what a Sidereal exalted is: the post

>>54536901
Considering that most Exalted PCs start at "God" and can only go up, and there's stuff like the Primordials going around, and a lot of dudes have bullshit special abilities that are pretty much impossible to counter if you can't manipulate Essence, no they're really not.

>>54536638
Underrated post

>>54536638
>All this magic items
eww

>>54536512
No what's easy per character is represented by what you're trained in, not by "Wizards have to be good at X". That's why choices of skills and ability scores are even a thing. I can't tell if you're trolling, but if you are saying a Wizard and Barbarian, both with 16 Str and both trained in Climb should have different DCs because they are different classes (despite having the exact same bonus) you're a retard.

>>54536965
>1:10 is still fairly insignificant in the grand scheme of things when we're discussing about a base mechanic that most players will never get to use.

How?
What?

...

What?

You know what? I think I'm done. I understood you were kind of dumb, but you're actually trying to tell me, a guy who is using those very rules, that those rules shouldn't exist just because not everyone uses them. Fairly insignificant? Why are you the guy who determines what is insignificant or isn't, when it's clear you don't even play the game or understand even the basics of it?

Hell, your whole "most players don't reach that level" isn't even remotely important, and you're even trying to arbitrarily define what is or isn't significant without realizing that people play in different styles and have different wants in a game.

>If the game is designed around mages flying by level 7, then why does the Barbarian have to wait until level 14 to fly

Because the barbarian gets other stuff the wizard doesn't get before then. Are you stupid or something? What are you even arguing at this point. other than that you don't like games where classes get different things and that you think spells are significantly better than they actually are?

Go play a few games and come back before you try to tell people how the game works.

>>54537095
>how to stop mages from being so powerful?!?!
>scenario where warrior gets magic items and ruins a mage
>completely ignores the fact that the warrior has superhuman speed, strength and reaction time
ewwwwww

>>54537137
>I think I'm done
Thanks, we were bored of giving you (you)s, but there's not much to be done here today though.

>>54536979
>>54537053
>>54537058
Considering that "Absolute Deity" is in the potential career path of a D&D character, where the lowest abilities of even minor deities include perfect attacks and perfect defenses, we're looking at one particularly pointless argument.

>>54537200
It's pointless, but only because a) you don't know what you're talking about and b) are unwilling to accept that you're wrong.

Exalted PC's start at "God" and go up from there. D&D characters, on average, are lucky to see level 13, let along "Absolute Deity."

>>54537200
No they don't. You need to be a Greater Deity to automatically get a 20 on any roll, and even then it explicitly says to calculate the result, which clearly means they're not absolutely succeeding or failing. There's no divine attack or defense powers besides Divine Splendor which don't require some sort of attack or save, and that explicitly only works on mortals.

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>>54533619
>Sampson vs Moses
Whichever one God sided with, honestly. I mean, if we're going based on Biblical and Church stories then the key to winning is pretty much just having God on your side, with almost all other factors not even really mattering in battle.

>>54537200
>we're looking at one particularly pointless argument

Agreed, it's blatant that the average Celestial Incarna would wipe the floor with every pantheon in the Forgotten Realms combined.

>>54537137
>How?
Because 90% of D&D games aren't going to bother letting you reach the level where a Barbarian's flight is actually possible to utilize, which is pretty insignificant in the long run.
>Because the barbarian gets other stuff the wizard doesn't get before then.
Like what? Look through the full cadre of a mage's spell list and chances are, they have a spell that emulates anything that the Barbarian can do.

So tell me, why exactly can the mage emulate a Barbarian's abilities as early as level 5 and yet the Barbarian can't emulate a single 3rd level Wizard spell until level 14?

>>54537058
At level 25+ D&D characters are already contending with deities, and its already pretty wank. At 40, they're major players in multiversal politics and are dealing with opponents like the absolute incarnation of evil. At 60, fighting things that can threaten every existence on a routine basis. At 80. they're dealing with armies of creatures that can end all existence, which kind of seems superfluous now that I think about it.

And, that's just the bottom tier of silliness, because a lot of the numbers start doing very weird things. For example, there are creatures that are essentially galaxy devouring mobile apocalypses, but can't even touch certain characters who are only around level 40 because those creatures lack divinity.

Exalted gets silly from the start, but D&D isn't really shy from playing the dick-measuring game.

My personal justification is that in the universe certain powers can become keyed to certain people. Example - incredible strength. Much like Incredible intelligence to learn how to manipulate the universe. This is why Commoners never become as powerful as hero's unless a power does bind to them. For me personally I limit Commoners to 14 max in a stat if they really try and no power is available or sees them as worthy.

>>54537200
I ain't even considering the high essence exalts when I think about how they could be a god, since they were literally designed to kill gods. But if you want to consider a level 100 or higher martial, then it's fair to think of the high end exalts. The ones that are literally untouchable and never miss, the ones that are cities with hundreds if not thousands smaller versions of themselves running about, the ones that literally decide how the battle will be decided. Imagine with all your godly swordsmanship you enter into a battle to the death where whoever is taller wins, and for some reason you have shrunk to the size of an ant and he has grown to the size of a planet.

>>54537499
You're still missing the obvious point here.

D&D characters will rarely reach Level 13, let along level 80, and the game wasn't designed around characters reaching those levels. I mean shit, the game starts getting wonky after level 12, I couldn't imagine the number crunching nightmare of having to account for level 80 PC's in something like 5e.

Meanwhile, Exalted is built around PC's being godlike entitites. They fight monsters that can end existence at the equivalent of a Level 5 D&D character and shit ramps up from there.

This whole thing is stupid.

>>54537440
If that pantheon includes Ao, you're talking about an Overdeity, who is effectively a supreme deity, which basically means that he's got infinite power and infinite powers.

The funny thing is that only known to him, he actually serves an even greater, unnamed deity (which is generally assumed to be a nod to the DM).

Also, the other deities of Faerun aren't really anything to sneeze at either, thought their powers to affect the material plane are limited. In their own domains, they've got quite close to absolute power. Still, you're probably right that they're less powerful than Celestial Incarna since the majority of their powers are limited to within their own domains and are reliant on their worshippers for power.

Still, Ao though.

>>54537626
What point? Trying to talk about averages or assuming limitations that aren't there doesn't change that a fighter can very well contend with anything in exalted if they're high enough in level. Sure, it relies on the hypothetical level 80+ character that's almost never played, but the entire question is deep in the realm of hypotheticals.

Everyone knows Exalted is built on pure wank. But, at the same time, nothing is stopping a D&D character from reaching that same level of wank. Infinite wank is infinite wank, regardless of the starting point.

Hell, level 100 isn't even the capstone for D&D characters, who have rules for going over 10,000.

>>54537733
Past a certain level though fighters only scale damage, health, and skills, none of those things would be useful against exalted characters

>>54538346
They get access to plenty of other boons, and there are plenty of boons unrelated to level that they can get, including stacking creature templates and getting divinity.

>>54538412
I still don't know if there's anything described in system that could top exalted, I am not that familiar with 3.pf though

I've only played up to 25th level in D&D, 3.5 btw, with a gish, it was barely a 7th level in Anima. And according to my GM, 14th (God killer, basically you can make an army of Cthulhus your bitches) in Anima doesn't come close to the lowest stuff in Exalted.

Can't prove any of that because I never played Exalted, but I played D&D and Anima.

>>54537733
>nothing is stopping a D&D character from reaching that same level of wank.
Except that, y'know, the game is built around characters being somewhere between level 1-20?

Besides, if you give a martial an infinite number of bonuses and levels, it's still not going to matter because of the simple fact that they only use those abilities if they manage to successfully strike someone with their attack, which is depressingly easy to do within the framework that they already exist in.

Imagining a Level infinite caster going up against an Exalt, when Exalts can utilize powers that make Wish look like a cantrip, yeah I'm fairly certain that the Fighter is still going to lose no matter how inflated you make his final numbers.

>>54538528
>Imagining a Level infinite caster going up against an Exalt
Meant to say an infinite level martial.

>>54537733
>Hell, level 100 isn't even the capstone for D&D characters, who have rules for going over 10,000
What? I've played 3, 3.5, 4 and 5 and they all cap at 20 or 30. I've played DnD for years and never even reached 20.

>>54538528
I actually beat a martial with infinite bonus to attack, HPs and damage once with a 8th level Sorcerer. Wings of cover and some spell that made him attack himself, don't remember the name.

it all started because the GM was mad our Warblade had disciplines like get +4 to attack and damage and that made him OP, and I defended him by saying even if you give him infinite attac, damage and HPs I will still beat him easily.

>>54538528
The cool thing is that there are rules of going beyond 20th level. Epic level abilities, and perhaps more importantly, epic level skill uses.

Epic level abilities include spells that make Wish look like a cantrip (including a 12th level spell that straight-up turns you into a god), and there's a lot of "go ahead and make up your own ability" wank as well.

As far as epic level skills though, whoo lad, let me tell you about some silly shit. Walking through walls of force, singing songs that make anyone who listens to them your slave, walking on clouds, all are within the 100-150 range‘for DCs, so you can imagine what a person would be capable of with DCs in the 200+ range. We might be talking deep into DM Fiat at this point, but I think that really anything beyond 15th level was already deep in wank territory.

But really, don't get to fixated on level, because level isn't really the only way characters get stronger. Divinity, templates, items, and the like are all components of a character's strength, and a D&D character can really just load up on silly wank and be stronger than gods while only having a single level in a class.

>>54538843
>needs 100-150 DC and epic levels to walk on clouds
LaughingAnimaBFcharacters.jpg

>>54538843
And yet at the end of the day, none of that matters because unless you're running a game yourself, you're never going to find a table that will be running games using those rules.

>>54538882
That's not what a DC is.
A DC is how difficult the task is. It's independent of the character.

The key thing to take away is that even though Anima characters or Exalted characters start off with a lot of wank, D&D characters can achieve Deity-and-beyond-level wank themselves.

>>54538990
see >>54538961
Can you please just drop it?

Here's the way I see it. A mage may know a lot of things. They can summon monsters, or teleport, or cast balls of fire, and do all that kind of craziness.

But if you stab him in the face, he's still stabbed in the face, and now he's dead. All that magic doesn't mean shit if you're fast enough, smart enough, or strong enough to just stab his face.

>>54538961
We're talking hypotheticals from start to finish.
Hell, people have a hard enough time finding a table of Exalted to play. Might as well say that game in its entirety doesn't matter if you want to use how many people play it as an argument.

>>54539059
You're more likely to find a table of Exalted than a table that will allow rules for becoming a god in D&D.

You can pretend that it's not the case but you'd be delusional to think that people are going to play level 100 characters when people can barely make it to 1/10th of that.

>>54539050
>Strong enough
>Fast enough

See>>54538803

>>54539059
I played more Exalted and Anima games than epic games in D&D, fuck, that games above 10th level in D&D

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Because that fighter is moving faster than the mage can see or is strong enough to break down any magic missile with a flick of his finger.
I'd go with the thought that any high level character is godly no matter what class he is.

A high level thief can slip in between space and is literally undetectable

A high level level Monk body is so powerful that he can shred open a wall at walking speeds with his face.

A high level Fighter can pretty much go "RULES OF NATURE" on anything he fights.

Ect, ect.
Pic related.

>>54533124
honestly as long as the DM enforces the spell components needed for spells that would limit the gap something fierce.

>>54539116
>You're more likely to find a table of Exalted than a table that will allow rules for becoming a god in D&D.

Not by a whole lot though. You may be greatly overestimating how many people play Exalted.

Still, it's largely a moot point, because the question was never "could a hypothetical average fighter used in a hypothetically average game of hypothetical D&D beat a hypothetical average sidereal in a hypothetical game of hypothetical Exalted hypothetically hypothetical?," it's "Can a D&D martial be a match for an Exalted Sidereal"?

>>54536830

The answer is yes, because there's no cap for either character, and 5+Infinity is equal to 200+infinity as far as mathematics is concerned.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilbert%27s_paradox_of_the_Grand_Hotel

It's a silly argument from start to finish.

>>54539289
>Not by a whole lot though.
So you admit that there is a greater number.
>it's "Can a D&D martial be a match for an Exalted Sidereal"?
And the answer is no.

Cool, glad we could come to an understanding.

>>54533124
Nothing prevents a mage from training martial arts.

Nothin prevents a warrior from training in magic.

And nothing prevents an individual who achieved great heights in both from developing a sepparate discipline that trains abilities from both.

I.e. if you aren't a mystic or monk you can go fuck your selves.

>>54539285
except there's a feat that literally removes spell components unless they're expensive as fuck, and most spells even the broken ones don't have that kind of component or are just verbal and somatic

And even if you disallow that feat and force every spell to have components, you basically made the game be more focused on the casters

>>54539360
>So you admit that there is a greater number.

But that number is completely and absolutely irrelevant? Sit down already.

>And the answer is no.

I just explained how it was yes, you dummy.

The answer is yes, because there's no cap for either character, and 5+Infinity is equal to 200+infinity as far as mathematics is concerned.

See? Even reposted it because you clearly missed this the first time you read that post.

>>54539386
And how often do you see eschew materials on anyone's character sheet? people just cheat because it's not fun having to pay for your spells, and pretend to forget it if you remind them. And it's the expensive ones that you're supposed to wary of using all the time.

>>54539466
Actually, not a neglible number of times. On my characters alone, easly 20% of my casters have it.

>>54539466
You don't even need it, as long as you have a spell component pouch, you have the component for every spell unless it has a gold or xp cost explicitly written out.

>warriors are just normal humans/slightly above average humans
No. They're Hercules-level or beyond. The Mage throws magic at the Warrior and the Warrior shrugs it off and then kills the Mage in one punch.

>>54533124
Low levels: no problem.
Mid levels: get wuxia powers.
High levels: sorry dude. You're gonna need actual magic.

If pathfinder, look at path of war. It'll get you half way there.

If 4e: the classes are balanced.

If 2e: the wizard got to be a chump for the first 3/4 of the campaign. Let him be awesome for the finale.

Otherwise: work with your dm. Pick up a template that gives you a bunch of supernatural powers. Make a deal with a devil or archfey for supernatural powers in exchange for services rendered. Get decked out in artifacts that give you supernatural powers.

>>54533143
Yup, people clearly have not read a single myth.
Herc held up the sky in 1 of his labours.

>>54539970
>demigods

Spiral power, motherfucker. Or any other power that comes from within man's very own soul. Mages are just using substitute or work in some other way.

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Where would a witch be between a fighter and a wizard?

>>54540603
*witcher

>>54533124
Give the martial enough gear to effectively let them have an accessible advantage, or at least an even playing fied, or give them ki/spirit/vigor/willpower/whatever to allow them a reason to be able to shrug off a few hits of that spell that immolates a 5x5 area or that surgically splinters the bones of giants, or shatters the skeleton of anything smaller than a full grown elk.
TL;DR- give in-universe plot armor to why a PC can facetank an arcane cannon ball to the chest and need only a full rest while the champion fae dragon orc giant half breed solo brute takes the same hit and comes out looking like Buffalo Bill's latest masturbation fodder.

Although here's a fun idea; make magic occur as a function of willing one's own imagination into the corporeal world. Say life force or consciousness has become so potent as to now be able to create or influence a plane that mirrors the ingame world, but is somewhat beholden to the powers of our imagination and willpower.
The change in the corporeal plane can be caused by either the mirror realm matter existing and being traded (and either persisting in the secondary world or 'poofing' as the mirror plane only exists for the moments it is willed to be, becoming nothingness), or simply by the consequential change to that matter in the mirror plane seeping into its respective matter in the corporeal plane so long as a wormhole is open. Of course, in any of those scenarios, will can be exerterted to resist the trade/change, close the wormhole, or to will a beneficial change into being (or hell, to imagine a lead wall to block the arcane bowling ball in the mirror plane, putting a stop to any damage to the martial before it even happens in one plane).
Part of what makes this idea nice mehanics-wise is that anybody willful is given a measure of agency; they get to choose to resist somehow. The rate at which the mirror plane seeps or bleeds into the corporeal also allows for a larger window in which to be proactive.

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>>54533143

First post best post. Strange how often it happens.

>>54533143
Fuck, the first reply was exactly what I was going to say.

>>54533967
>dozens of unique spells that could affect the entire flow of combat every turn
>every turn
And here is the problem. All those spells being cast at whim, not needing any verbal components and lengthy incantations is what made mages more powerful than they should be.

Take a look at Slayers - the more powerful the spell is, the more time a sorcerer needs to finish the casting.

Also, a high level martial should be able to soak damage from many attacks that would easily kill a mage in one hit, shrug off any attempts at dominating his mind, and be able to behead his opponents when he wants it, instead of only when he has a critical hit with enough damage on top.

>>54541590
>Also, a high level martial should be able to soak damage from many attacks that would easily kill a mage in one hit
And they can, it's just that damage doesn't really matter all that much when you're only dealing 1d10+STR against creatures with over 100 HP.

>>54541706
I like how you ignored that they should have special attacks to kill most of things with a single strike regardless of their HP, just how wizards can.

And when something has over 100 HP, a wizard shouldn't be able to kill those instantly either.

>>54533312
that's about what I do if a PC is falling behind to far in damage I give them an enchanted item that kicks ass or a feat

>>54542034
>I like how you ignored that they should have special attacks to kill most of things with a single strike regardless of their HP, just how wizards can.
The wizard has to spend slots from a finite resource and hope that the enemy fails their save long enough to succumb to the effects of the spell.

If the Fighter had a resource mechanic that they could spend to achieve similar results, then we wouldn't have an issue. Unfortunately, that's not the case, so no OHKO bullshit for you.

Worse case scenario, just lower the HP that everyone gets across the board by half and you'll achieve the same results anyways.
>And when something has over 100 HP, a wizard shouldn't be able to kill those instantly either.
Why, because it's not "fair" for a magic class to do something useful with magic?

Get over yourself Martialfag.

>>54542114
No, it's because instant kill spells usually can't kill things that has that many hit dices to reach 100 HP.

Mechanics are a thing, casterfag.

>>54533306

the wizard makes do with whatever verbal and somatic spells he had memorized before losing his book, fighter struggles with his 1+STR modifier unarmed strikes

>>54533306
If the wizard didn't spend a spell from the previous day he still has that spell prepared without a book for the next day.

>>54542544
Power Word: Kill isn't the only high level spell that can end combat in one turn anon.

You'd know this if you bothered researching something besides optimum damage output.

>>54543109
And if my memory serves me right, back in AD&D 2.0, spells such as that were not cast in one turn and could end up getting interrupted and wasted.

>>54534431
>Why can't you just ban game-breaking spells?
That means going through every single spell in every single splat book and making rulings in a vaccuum. It just isn't feasible and doesn't work anyway.

>>54543154
You'd be correct.

Basically, everything had a speed modifier which affected your initiative during the turn. Spells applied a penalty to your initiative based on the level of the spell, so spells that did more also required more time to properly set up.

Nowadays though, it all mostly costs an action.

Aren't you massive faggot?In a "balanced" scenario magic would come at a great cost for being so powerful, meanwhile the martials are capable of superhuman feats through sheer training and preparation without having cthulhu penetrating him through the anus for swinging a sword.

>>54543257
Yeah, IMO it's one of the main factors that contributed in making casters that much more powerful than martials in 3.PF especially that it makes little sense that gathering energy to cast Magic Missile should take as much time as bringing a fireball from Plane of Fire (unless it's about gathering heat from the surrounding until the air ignites).

>>54543305
>Not having a sword that have Cthulhu penetrate your anus for swinging it
Where do you think you are?

>>54537468
>So tell me, why exactly can the mage emulate a Barbarian's abilities as early as level 5 and yet the Barbarian can't emulate a single 3rd level Wizard spell until level 14?
Because barbarians and the players who play them are stupid, and casters are the only valid choice.
Realistically, we should look at making all PHB classes casters.

Just be good enough at cutting that you can cut magic

>>54543706
>Realistically, we should look at making all PHB classes casters.
Each Martial class has a caster variant and they still suck dick in comparison to full-casters.

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>>54533124
The ability to warp reality does not change the fact that you are still just a puny dork in a dress.

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If your Wizard is Doctor Strange at high levels then your Fighter should be Hercules or Wonder Woman, your Cleric should be Thor, your Barbarian should be Hulk or Juggernaut, and your Thief should be what happens if you combined Black Widow and Spider-man

After 5th level D&D characters are basically superheroes, in fact in Basic D&D fighters actually got a title called superhero.

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>>54533143
we have a winner

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>>54533909
>Yes, Conan is the kind of thing people WANT, but unfortunately most popular Tabletop systems don't deliver on that.
4e delivers Conan pretty damn well. It doesn't deliver whatever 3.PF fans mean when they say "classic D&D" but it DOES deliver pulp fantasy adventure in which the PC's are the heroes.

If you're looking for Howard-Style adventure, and you want the players to feel like the collective Conan of their world, maybe you should look to 4e.

>>54533143
>not even universally true amongst western fantasy settings
Nope
>generally untrue in western mythology
Bigger nope

It's fine to say that martials and casters should be on equal terms as writers should incorporate fairness when it comes to roleplay.
But most fictional works has magic besting brawn at every corner, and if not, the brawn always has some sort of magical aid.

I'm on your side, but you can't just sway the odds here.

>>54546397
>he has never seen a man punch a lightning bolt back to its user

>>54546397
I can agree that most fictional pieces will have casters beating martials (it makes sense)

I will NOT stand for roleplaying creators for standing by this 'just because'

You have a point. Magic is stronger. But these are roleplaying games. Balance is focal.

>>54546432
>You have a point. Magic is stronger. But these are roleplaying games. Balance is focal.
That's... Exactly what I was saying...

>>54546409
How random.

autosage time

>>54546397
You're too late. Idiots devoured that post like it was gospel. When it just isn't.

The only truth to it was the first part.

>>54540603
Wizards seem to be stronger than witches in general fiction.

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>>54540036
>find me people who do fantastic things but who are not, themselves, fantastic
Can't be done.

If you can suspend your disbelief for crotchety old men summoning hot babes by huffing mercury, I don't get what's wrong with buff dudes diverting rivers.
If anything, that's MORE believable than the former.

>>54546950
That's still practically magic, lol

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>>54546963
OK. So.I don't really want to get into a semantics kerfuffle with you.
And if you stop and reflect on it, I don't think you do either.

But I'll do my best to walk into your screwy-ass frame of reference:
Would you be willing to accept that sufficiently leveled martials innately (or actively) study Muscle Wizardry?
And that, the underlying metaphysics aside, they are still mechanically and semiotically treated as martials?

>>54547139
They are martials using magic. They're automatically on the wizard's side of things.

Welcome.

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>>54547233
So Yes to the first and No the the second.
That's... what I expected. But I feel like I've wasted my time.

>>54546502
...and that it was the best. If you can only imagine a world where magic trumps muscle then you only have half an imagination.

>>54533143
1st post answered this just fine

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>>54533143
And it's /thread.... oh wait, no!

Because while this
>By not making stupid assumptions. In a fantasy setting, the scope of magic and the scope of martial skill can be determined entirely by the will of the author.
is entirely ok, and would end this thread easily, we have a problem with

this
>The idea that magic is limitless while mundane skill must remain bound by 'realistic' limits is a pointless double standard not even universally true amongst western fantasy settings, generally untrue in western mythology and a downright laughable concept if you expand your frame of reference beyond that

So the only solution is to make magic limited, right? How limited?
Let's say magic is now less powerful and martial skills are better than the "realistic" ones. But still, magic can accomplish things that physical skills can't.

This is not about powerlevels - this is about balance. Even if magic can't control cosmic forces in your setting, if you won't degrade spellcasters to simple ranged characters, they'll have the chance to outmatch warriors. Rituals, spell combos, etc - these can be far more deadlier than "swinging a sword faster and stronger".

Let me add one more thing: I'm talking about more creative settings, where spellcasters are not simple ranged dudes with fireballs. Think about sleep spells, rituals, curses, energy shields, illusions, etc.

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>>54548597
One more thing: the other solution is to make warriors animu-style demigods. They can train their skills to insane levels, to fight magic (and they use stamina or other physical attributes for these skills, not mana):

>punching through time
>jumping so high that it is almost flying
>kicking air so hard that they can alter their course
>attacking so fast that you can hit people from a distance (teleport attack, because science!)
>being so damn powerful that your attacks now equals any kinds of magical attacks
>your defenses are also anti-magic defenses now
>you can sense sneaky magical acts (rituals, curses, etc) with your superior intuition
>you can counter sneaky magical attacks with your astral warrior form (or some other bullshit, also without mana)

Etc, etc.

>>54548597
That is entirely subjective.
By chance, are you flexible enough to stick your dick in your mouth?