Advanced DND Thread

Can we all agree that 95% of the weapons in the game are completely superfluous? Most are blatantly inferior to a sword in every way, and crossbows do less damage than regular bows.

It was just silly.

>>54523487
well not everyone can use swords and there are damage types

in 2e when you withdraw for combat you can only move 1 space right?

>>54523435
I don't understand how dual-classed humans are OP, or what builds would be OP. I went digging on Google, but all I found was a lot of "gee whiz" chatter and no real powerful builds. Does anyone remember any cheesy dual-class (not multi-class) human builds, or were they all crud?

>>54524058
Dual class is OP because for any given amount of XP you can obtain ludicrous extra power with a minimal hit to your "main" class. Consider a character with a 1.25 million XP. We could make a 13th level Wizard, a 13th level Fighter, or an 8th level Fighter/13th level Wizard. You give up nothing in Wizard levels to gain 8d10 hp instead of 8d4 and have a 13 THAC0, which a wizard will never reach by single classing, and you're only behind in your wizard levels 125k, which is about a third of a level.

>>54524232
I'm not well read on the distinction between the two. However, the fact that characters can have 2 classes and get the best attributes of each is bonkers. Why would you ever not be a fighter in addition to your main class? D10 hit dice and a thac0 per level is hard to turn down.

Finally we escape the burdensome yoke of the oppressive "OSR" hipster thread—for we have embraced True AD&D®, that than which there can be none greater. The gold and experience earned when all rules are implemented in harmony with all others are real. AD&D® will grant you spells if you provide it enough worshipers. This is canon. Spread the Good News of AD&D® and gain power. Tupac is alive in AD&D®. AD&D® has gold because of Tupac. AD&D® Tupac rap magic.

>>54524348
It works like this:
>Be human
>Pick a class
>Have at least a 15 in your class's prime requisite ability score
>Play normally, gain levels
>At some point decide you want to be another class AND have a 17 in that class's prime requisite
>You keep your HP but all your other stats revert to those of a 1st level character of the new class
>You play as that class gaining levels normally (except you gain no HP when leveling up)
>Once you reach a level HIGHER than your old class you gain all your powers from that class back in addition to the powers of your current class, taking the better of each
>You continue leveling normally in the new class

>>54524348
You mean can have an infinite number of classes. Dual classing allows one to change classes as many times as one wishes / has the ability requirements to change. Any class, any combinations.

This is distinct from "the character with two classes" from 1E, which does not EXPLICITLY allow more than 2 classes the way that 2E dual classing does.

>>54524466
Well, that's retarded

>>54524466
You can always mix the two (or more) class abilities freely. One simply earns no experience for the encounter should abilities be mixed prior to subsequent class level exceeding previous, and ¼ experience for the adventure.

This means that between adventures a W14/Psi5 or some such could create magical items with no penalty—the character would simply earn no XP for creating the items.

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>>54524628
Well, I'm sure they've fix it when 3rd edition comes out.

>>54524848
sorry but that would not let people just be dead weights for the party?

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>>54524348
Subhuman filth multi-classes.
• must be done at char gen
• no restrictions beyond those for the ethnicity
• xp is evenly divided between classes (they level separately)
• full abilities from each class
• fractional HD from each class (by number of classes)

Humanity (fuck yeah) dual-classes.
• can be done at any level up
• requires 15 in all your old class's important attributes
• requires 17 in all your new class's important attributes
• cannot retake an old class
• xp goes entirely to the new class
• full abilities of new class
• old classes abilities screw your xp gains (until you pass your old level)
• no new HD (until you pass your old level) (classing out of Wizard screws you)

>>54524628
It's very loosely based on the OD&D class change rules in Men & Magic.
• must be done between sessions
• requires 17 in all your new class's important attributes
• elves can switch to Fighting-Men or Magic-Users, attributes be damned
• can retake old classes (with good attributes) (note your old xp)
• xp goes entirely to the new class
• full abilities of new class
• lose all old abilities
• lose all old HD, too (note your old hp)

>>54524058
I'we played a fair amount of AD&D and I don't think I've ever seen a dual-classed character actually get used. The rules for dual-classing are so stupid that every group I've seen seems to have dropped them, like alignment languages and those to-hit adjustments for each weapon vs. each individual AC that are in the 1e PHB.

>>54524628
>Well, that's retarded
Pretty much.

>>54525087
>the OD&D class change rules in Men & Magic.
Oh. Also, former MUs could never become Clerics. (and vice-versa)

>>54525612
Then you've never run an adventure since millions of published NPCs are dual-classed.

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>>54523435
My preference in Basic, but it really depends on what you're looking for. AD&D is more detailed. It has more classes, more spells, more races, more moving parts. I'm okay with most of that, but it also adds a bunch of needless fiddly stuff. It adds percentile strength. It adds separate system shock and resurrection survival scores (they're always just 5% points away from each other until they start scrunching up over 90%--why bother?). It adds race and gender minimum and maximum ability scores. The spells have more unnecessarily scaling parts and are generally more involved just for the sake of being more involved.

Simply put, I think that Basic is a much better product for what it covers. It's just a question of whether it covers enough for you. If you're looking for a short campaign, the more limited options Basic affords is probably less of a consideration, as you won't wear them out. Otherwise, Moldvay Basic (B/X) still gives you a nice, streamlined foundation on which to build, and the fact that it shares the same core system as AD&D makes it very easy to selectively lift material from the latter (making AD&D a good well of resources for Basic). The one big issue you might have with Basic is the race-as-class approach, where "elf" is a class just like "cleric" or "thief". I used to think that was dumb, but I've grown fond of the idea over the years. It makes demihumans more distinctive, and given the small number of classes in Basic, and the idea that the world is human-centric, it's about the right number of classes to devote to demihumans (3 out of 7 are demihuman race/classes). There are, however, retroclones of Moldvay Basic that split race and class, like Basic Fantasy, for instance, so you have options as far as that goes.

>>54525727
>Then you've never run an adventure since millions of published NPCs are dual-classed.
NPCs are different from PCs. The stupidest parts of dual-classing don't really affect them. Monsters don't usually even have information on ability scores and shit and they run just fine. Also, I think you're overestimating the number of dual-classed characters, and that only applies to modules in any case.

>>54525920
Go back to your containment thread.

>>54525993
> Monsters don't usually even have information on ability scores and shit and they run just fine.
Classified Trade Secret: If you do that with PCs, they still run just fine. :Do no steal!

>>54523435
>What were the good parts?
Playing it.
>What were the bad parts?
What fucking page are saving throws on, again? Let's just go to the local library and photo copy the tables out out of the seventeen different books that the ones I need are spread across.

>>54526005
hurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

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>>54526132
That hole was made for you.

>>54524041
It's based on your movement rate. Something like 1/4th I think? So 3 spaces for normal humans.
>>54526127
The indexing sucked dick, that's for sure. The profusion of save or die in monsters (though you can just not use those ones). Qualifying for classes was pretty damn tough for any but the basic 4, a bard, druid, or god help you a paladin required damn high stats. Specialist wizards, too. Dual classing is strong as fuck but almost impossible to qualify for. The profusion of 2.5e Player's Option dogshit was awful as well. Plenty to call the 'bad parts', but all easily ignored or fixed.

>>54526005
>Go back to your containment thread.
Yes, let's not hear from people with informed opinions.

>>54526620
Real Man books would always be catered to the True AD&D® system while only paying nominal "lip service" to the "Player's Option" system, advising one that the rules presented can easily be adapted to it. Real authors would write for Real Men in this way, refusing to bend the knee to Lorraine's demented protégé Skip (show us the birth certificate).

>>54527690
This is the True AD&D® thread. Hipsters who want to pretend that inferior rulesets are superior in some way are to be contained in their "OSR" general thread.

>>54527905
I like you, friend.

I'd fly a Spelljammer with you any day.

>>54528897
Settle for shotgun in my lifejammer?

>>54523435
Good: Actual class roles that the game is built around, it stays lethal throughout the entire game, magic items are more interesting, every class but Thief is 100% viable, monsters have plenty of noncombat descriptions, tons of good setting material, stat checks are way better than any later edition of D&D because each point matters, the game is built so that not having exactly X stats doesn't instantly disqualify you from being relevant.

Bad: Monster design is schizophrenic, it's too lethal at low levels, it's more complex than B/X and BECMI without much improvement, there are still monsters that exist solely as gotchas everywhere, Thieves are shit, multiclassing is overpowered and the main restriction against it will almost never come up ever, dual classing is overpowered once it comes together but is shit before then and is clunky anyways, the sweet spot of the game where mages and warriors are on par with each other doesn't last long enough so most of the time at least one party member is having a bad time, splats range from okay to horrible.

>>54529147
No thanks, being converted to fuel isn't my idea of a fun vacation. Tell you what though, my cousin has a Bardic Helm we can borrow!

>>54529575
>monsters that exist solely as gotchas everywhere

I want to hear about some of these.

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The problem with Thac0 compared to AC is that there's simply more steps and a bit more convoluted ideas going on in the explaination of the rules than what AC offers.

In Thac0 you're trying to determine the number you actually need to roll. So calculation occurs before the rolling even begins which is tricky since players wanna be on that shit and so will often roll pre-emptively after they've decided on their action.

You then have to subtract the opponent's AC from your Thac0 which at first sounds easy but there's always a step people fuck up on and that's that negative numbers when subtracted are added... yea did that make sense to you by just me saying it? I thought so. It's one of those mathematical jargons that works only if you wrap your head around what a negative number is which is a bit of an abstract concept.

So already we have a system that tells a player they need to figure out the number they need to roll over, so rolling does them no good first, and they need to subtract from a number on their sheet to figure out what that is. Another issue here is that, and this is purely a psychological thing but, people find counting up more pleasant and easy than counting down.

Compared to AC which mathematically gets us the same result but is done with the rolling being a necessary and early step and only involves addition and comparing against a base number. It's a bit more straightforward and avoids the whole negative number debaucle.

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>>54529973
http://www.lomion.de/cmm/rustmons.php
http://www.lomion.de/cmm/fungus.php
http://www.lomion.de/cmm/cloaker.php
http://www.lomion.de/cmm/mimic.php
http://www.lomion.de/cmm/parasite.php <-- especially Ear Seekers
http://www.lomion.de/cmm/pigeacid.php
http://www.lomion.de/cmm/roper.php
http://www.lomion.de/cmm/piercer.php
http://www.lomion.de/cmm/lurker.php
http://www.lomion.de/cmm/locklurk.php
Et cetera.

If you've ever heard of Tomb of Horrors, the demilich at the end is also a gotcha.

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>>54530093
>You then have to subtract the opponent's AC from your Thac0

>we have a system that tells a player they need to figure


Well, strictly speaking the DM does all the thac0 calculations so for players its actually simpler because they only have to roll and see what happens. It's good for absolute beginners.
And most DMs will be right on top of what you need to hit, knowing the player's thac0s and the AC of the targets.

I dunno, I like it.

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>>54523487
>crossbows do less damage than regular bows.

Seems fine to me, Froggy.

>>54530186

>And most DMs will be right on top of what you need to hit, knowing the player's thac0s and the AC of the targets.

I mean except for the ones that don't.

And it's not like AC doesn't offer the exact merits that you're stating? It just asks the player to be involved with the mathing which is arguably GOOD since it lets them feel like they have some agency in the game.

"Hey Billy, roll this dice and add this number tell me what you got" and he just compares it to the AC.

And if you're gonna bring up the guy who's like "what do I roll again" lets be fair he was ALWAYS THERE even in AD&D.

Like I dunno man. I can't think of any benefit Thac0 brings to the table that AC doesn't unless you're just really invested in the idea that it's the NUMBER ON THE DICE THAT MATTERS MAN.

>>54530236
>I mean except for the ones that don't.
They're supposed to write that shit down.

The hell are you prioritizing over that on your screen?

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>>54530236

>I mean except for the ones that don't.

I dunno man. I'm not going to tell you what you like is wrong, but I can't account for DMs not using the system properly.

Personally, when I play I don;t really get much enjoyment from engaging to the game on a mechanical level. So fighting in modern systems dosen't do it for me, i guess. I'm not a fan of rolling, then adding bonuses/modifiers etc and reporting a total. It clinicises the excitement for me. I get that some folk like it, that's fine.

On occasions when I do add a number to my roll its something special and probably due to magic or exceptional skill of my character not just some expected bonuses. I like that.

I like describing how I fight an orc, rolling, and hearing how my efforts worked out. I think its neat. For all the piles of rules in 2e and what-not, when thac0 is properly used its really smooth and my imagination dosen't have to take time off to recall numbers or mechanisms very much. It's nice.

>>54529973
I think having monsters that take levels away was one of the meanest things in AD&D. In one of the ravenloft modules one of the boss vampires can steal five levels with their attack.

>>54531497
Levels are much more easily recovered than CON points, though.

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>>54531497
It was really only full-bastard level if it was sprung on you unavoidably without warning. Its pretty neat if its built to and the characters know about how dangerous it is and they choose to confront the vampire anyway. It's heroic and they get to make a plan and execute it knowing what can happen if the worst occurs.

I like how it encouraged players to fight vampires properly. That is, staking them in their lair during the day. Bastard DMs always want to force some kind of fight so they can use all the neat powers and stuff but really that's a failure state against a vampire or wight or whatever it is.

It is a weird power though. Life energy levels? But of an imaginative stretch.

I don't remember any five-level draining vampires, but I don't doubt you at all. That's gotta be some vampire.

>>54527905
>This is the True AD&D® thread.
From OP: "ITT we talk about AD&D and how it compares to other editions."

It's kind of hard to compare AD&D to other editions if you can't talk about other editions. Also, I'm not sure many people outside of /osr/ are gonna understand the significance of True AD&D®.

>>54531497
>I think having monsters that take levels away was one of the meanest things in AD&D.
On one hand, I agree that it really sucks if it happens to you. On the other, I have to say that very effectively puts the fear of god into your players, which is a fitting reaction to the undead.

>>54531502
You die from loss of levels much faster than loss of CON, man.

Not to mention every level lost means you have that much less everything.

>>54531497
*casts lesser restoration*

>>54530093
Is there anyway to apply Thac0 in a later edition for the purpose of an antediluvian eldritch abomination as a mechanic, or any other older ruleset?

>>54531572
Vampires had age categories in Ravenloft, and the extension of the larger expanse of D&D. By Age 1000, which they could cheat using aging mathods anyhow if they didn't gain a salient weakness, they could effectively become Castlevania's Dracula as a Great Old One, capable of widespread undead control, absurd spawn creation, mental domination by awareness and voice, tap into their owned lands leylines, drain more levels than ever, drain in mist form and pop out quickly for a last scare as they lay inert in a coffin.

It was fucking great. To note Orcus's average servitor vampire is around the age 500 mark.

>>54532139
I don't know what lesser restoration is, but restoration is a 7th level cleric spell (which means you have to be 14th level and have an 18 wisdom to cast it), and it has to be cast within one day per caster level of the time when the level drain occurred.

>>54532215
Neat!

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>>54530093
>In Thac0 you're trying to determine the number you actually need to roll. So calculation occurs before the rolling even begins which is tricky since players wanna be on that shit and so will often roll pre-emptively after they've decided on their action.
Just subtract the roll from your THAC0, you get the AC you can hit

>THAC0 - AC = Roll
>THACO - Roll = AC

>>54532190
>Is there anyway to apply Thac0 in a later edition?
there is this homebrew

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>>54530093
I agree that THAC0 isn't as intuitive, but it's really just a different way of solving the same equation, and when it comes right down to it, it's very easy enough to convert between the systems:

>Ascending AC = 20 - Descending AC
>Attack Bonus = 20 - THAC0

So if you've got a guy with a 17 THAC0 striking at a guy in chainmail armor (AC 5), that becomes a guy with a +3 Attack Bonus striking at a guy with a 15 AC.

Or you could just reference a pre-made table, like the one in the pic here.

>>54524913
It depends, Characters are still pretty effective even on lower levels and the most common Multiclass is usually something like a Fighter -> Mage or Cleric

Even though you become a low level spell caster you still have the Hit points of a high level fighter and there are a few low level spells that let you remain useful, even moreso if you have some decent gear.

>>54534283
>Multiclass
Although it's implied, I meant to type DualClass

>>54534283
I remember the other way round showing up in one of the Maztica Trilogy novels. Halloran's like a Mage 1/Fighter 3-4 or something, and his dinky magic skills actually come in handy a couple of times.

>>54530093
THAC0 was the natural transition from the combat tables to a mathematical formulae while keeping descending AC.
Base Attack Bonus was the natural evolution of that, with the cost of ascending AC.

There's no need for THAC0 in any new retroclone. It is a relic of the past that did its job the best it could do until a better way was created.

>>54530221
In Birthright they changed crossbows to not only do more, but have an armor piercing property as well.
>>54532215
Ravenloft added so much cool stuff. It's a shame it's been shitcanned for so long.

>>54534536
Aye, There's a number of low level spells that remain potent even at higher level play.

Even lower level martial characters can be relevant due to modifiers not creeping nearly as hard in ADND compared to modern versions.
As an example a stone giant has 0 AC which is the equivalent of ANYONE wearing Fullplate + shield and monsters with negative armor class are relatively rare

>>54531627
Faggots are innately aware of meme magic

>>54532228
>one day per caster level
Oh no! You have to be within 2 weeks of a Clerical stronghold! That ~never~ happens.
If your party is a bunch of assholes, you can also cut deals with clerics you meet in the dungeon.

>>54535095
It's still technically canon by 3.5 too, Monsters of Faerun showed the Lich salient abilities from Vr's guide to the lich and now the World serprent Inn let's you visit (and escape) Ravenloft, much to the dark powers chargrin, and there was an adventure visiting Lord Soth's Domain after he'd left it, many of the abilities for vampires were unfortunately shafted into the Orcus owned Vampire Lord template, which later pretty much erased all of this hierachy and structure in 4e-5e. To also note, Kanchelsis, the god of vampires was also in 3.5 but they accidentally rewrote him twice before publishing him correctly in a Dragon magazine issue, and they Made Vlad Tolenkov all the way from 1e's Demon Web pits Lolth's private consort, mentioned in hordes of the Abyss, next to detailing his layer of the Abyss in the web enhancement for that book.

They even gave 2 statblocks for classic 2e Strahd in the Dragon Magazine. Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, luckily was non-canon and a remake of the original adventure, applicable to multiple campaign settings.

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While I think AD&D is rather an archaic and bloated system that is mostly fondly remembered through the tunnel vision of nostalgia and house rules it did have some absolutely fantastic DM and game running advice that it's a real shame don't seem to have survived into the modern era of gaming.

Take the advice on page 21 of the DMG pictured here which succinctly explains why your group of catkin, gnolls and half fox's make for a pretty shitty game. (Iong story short there's nothing to relate to in the narrative). I've yet to see this put so we'll anywhere else as modern game design seems to think being able to play a psychic, half-day, fairy vampire is a sign of good design or 'player freedom.

Likewise the specific campaign guide book for AD&D linked below

>>https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://dnd.rem.uz/Advanced%2520D%2526D%2520(unsorted)/Dungeon%2520Masters%2520Guide%2520V.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwjxssSVoKfVAhUHKcAKHcjmCqAQFghdMAw&usg=AFQjCNF2ClxAStcfLj8T9k-ppm--bcT5pw

Has some fantastic no nonsense advice on the social contract, getting players to clean up after themselves and a great piece on fudging that strikes a balance between maintaing the fair nature of the game but not dicking everyone over due to a bad dice roll. It also stresses the the role of the dungeon master takes actual work, dedication and effort and turning up unprepared to a session is always poor show. This seems to contrast with the modern philosophy in many games where the rules are treated as a shit show for hilarious antics where the DM is often encouraged to turn up having prepared nothing.

So I wish we had more advice like that in our games these days and I wish the AD&D rules were written as succinctly as the advice given as I might still play it today.

>>54536089
Since this should be common sense, anyone can read and rewrite that same advice in their respective DMG, right?

Anyone ever make a SRD of game mastering?

>>54536089

>Take the advice on page 21 of the DMG pictured here which succinctly explains why your group of catkin, gnolls and half fox's make for a pretty shitty game

All it does is describe that human emotions and understanding/culture should be at the center of your adventure... which yea is obvious but I don't see how things like cat-people are worse than elves or dwarves in that respect???

Like sure if your party are all sentient clouds, xenomorphs, talking trees, etc I could understand the issue he's bringing up but as long as everyone involved has some level of anthromorphism and sapience that is undeniably human or relatable on some level then the issue isn't really an issue.

Now with that said if your characters ONLY DEFINING FEATURE is that they're a fox anthro and you just wanna describe their knot then yea go fuck yourself but I think outright forbading the entire concept in fantasy is a bit much.

>>54536980
Not that anon, but try taking off your Furry-colored glasses and pretending that "catkin, gnolls and half foxes" are monsters.
Now reread the whole page.

Although, you do have a point about how elves and dwarves should be alien too. But at leat they are accepted in many fantasy human cultures.

>>54536089
I'm sure a bunch of people shit on this opinion, but humano-centric worlds really are the best.

>>54536089
Monster characters either ends up bland or as "humans, but better"

>>54537452
Agreed.
And I'm saying that as a lover of multiple non-human race options.
Non-human PCs should be odd exceptions to their race, to be adventuring in the human world.

>>54523435
Can half elves use the Book of Elves classes? I know Bladesinger was explicitly said to be a no go but it didn't say for the others

>>54537559
The books are guidelines, just do what you think it's fun (with the DM's approval)

>>54529575
>every class but Thief is 100% viable
How would you fix them?
I'd give them a d8 hit die and let them basically take the Cleric's THAC0 whilst also maybe letting them spec in daggers, shortswords, or shortbows

>>54537757
Backstab can be used more easily. The increased damage potential is diminished because of worse THAC0, reducing damage per round to be close to Fighter.

>>54525087
You forgot the weirdest thing about dual classing: until your new class retakes your old one, you are not allowed to use any of the features from your old class except the HD. You have to limp along pretending that you're not already an experienced adventurer. If you dual class out of fighter into a class with worse attacks, you have to swing your sword worse than you already know how to swing it until your new class retakes your old one. Same thing with saving throws - you have to let the breath weapon hit you or you don't get any XP. Don't ask me how this works if you have to save vs. something you're not aware of, like if someone poisons your wine.

>>54537559
Yes, they can. In fact, at least one can ONLY be a half elf because it's a triple class.
>>54537830
Just give them back Assassinate and they'll be great again ;)
For real though, as a multiclass option it's great to have thief as a second. On it's own, it feels more like a henchman class.

>>54523487
Been a while since I played AD&D but don't bows have a draw strength, and if you don't have a good enough Strength score, you can't use the bow, whereas pretty much everybody can use a crossbow?

And aren't swords are good until you have to fight undead and then you're better using a mace or other blunt weapon?

>>54538192
You can use a bow, but if you have really low strength you do less damage. However, high strength adds to damage so it's better for most warriors than a crossbow. Fires faster, can do a lot more damage, and has longer range.

>>54538228
Yeah, I seemed to recall bows being better for fighters, but crossbows being better for those with low strength scores. Also, weren't darts good, too, because you could throw a bunch on your turn?

>>54523487
Crossbows got upgraded in Combat & Tactics (the part of it written by L. Richard Baker III as an update for actual AD&D and not the part written by demon-spawn of Lorraine Skip Williams).

• Light crossbow does 1d6+1 S/M 1d8+1 L
• Heavy crossbow does 1d8+1 S/M 1d10+1 L

Both got increased rates of fire for specialists. Also bonus to hit and damage at point-blank range.

>>54538373
Darts are pretty good, but like any weapon with multiple attacks you only make half of the attacks on your first go around for initiative normally, the second half at the end of the initiative round. For short range thrown weapons like darts the enemies will probably have engaged you or your allies in melee. Firing into melee is, as always, a really bad idea.
A dart specialist fighter with high strength can, in theory, shred shit but in practice it won't come up much.

>>54538373
Darts are super good in both ADnD and Baldur's Gate for this reason.

>Mage is out of spell points.
>Tosses 7 darts a round with stacking poison effects.
>suddenly the boss is taking 1d2x7piercing and 1d6x7 poison one just round one.
>the mage doesn't even cast a spell and the boss just DoTs to death within 2-3 rounds of poison.
>not to mention enchanted darts with cold/stunning/sleep spells on them

Holy shit darts are good. So cheap to enchant or even straight up buy.

>>54537526
That's how I've always played it myself

>>54530093
>there's always a step people fuck up on and that's that negative numbers when subtracted are added... yea did that make sense to you by just me saying it? I thought so.

Come the fuck on, two negatives making a positive is like grade-school algebra. I still find Thac0 unintuitive, but don't pretend this is some high math.

I don't see lots of comments about "AD&D broken builds"

Is it just darts and the bladesinger from complete elf that get hate?

>>54537350

>But at leat they are accepted in many fantasy human cultures.

.... noooo

they're accepted in many northern european/gaelic cultures sure but

by and large animal people/shapeshifters are MUCH more prevalent.

And the specific KIND of elf/dwarf in D&D is some kind of bastardized version of Tolkein's.

>>54538951

There's plenty of broken shit espeically if you take into a lot of the later supplements that were pushed out to make ridiculous shit for short-term gain.

It's just that the internet didn't really exist when AD&D was big.

>>54538951
plenty of broken builds laid out there if you look at the old AD&D videogames, but they use altered rulesets for the most part, many taking from 3.5e and AD&D, at least in terms of spells.

>>54538820

It doesn't get used in every-day circumstances so it's still something your average person can pause on.

The question isn't whether or not the math is complicated it's whether or not the math is intuitive and asking people to remember that subtracting negative numbers to add them simply isn't an intuitive expression of mathematical language.

>>54531572
Its from Thoughts of Darkness which is a kind of silly module involving vampire mindflayers. The vampire who does it is Strahd's grandniece.

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Picked up the DMG for twelve bucks
How'd I do? Sadly no one nearby carried anything else aside from some handbooks on classes and elves

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>>54539653
Yeah, she also makes it canon that VAMPIRES ARE NOT ACTUALLY IMMUNE TO AGING because they stack age effects due to their age category system, so she kills her husband (Typical CE behavior) to piss off his ghost to age her. In effect, a Vampire's appearance is locked as they were when they died, but underneath they're pretty much the age the actually are. VR mentioned it in his guide, and It was even mentioned in an even vaguer sense in 3.5, and with Ravenloft still being canon there, AND the Vampire Ilithid somehow ending up statted for 3.5 with unknown origins, It's safe to say that hilarious exploit is still a thing.

Even funnier? Under a more roleplay oriented ruleset, Vampires energy drain actually take years off a person's lifespan, sthey slap you into becoming a pensioneer if you're unlucky enough to encounter one.

Thanks to this exploit, it means that a PC with knowledge of this, can become a vampire, use wish to ensure their original personality is not overwritten, take over a barony, and proceed to stack the aging effects with wishes, creatures that can age them, staffs of either until they Become Caine from World of Darkness, and can probably Energy Drain the Divine Rank out of a god or strangle them to death with their silly Ability scores.

>>54539954
Of course, it's also a way to fuck a vampire over if you take in consideration their bloodthirst needs, except it doesn't. At all. Even though Lyssa was a Ravenloft Nosferatu Vampire WHICH RUNS ON BLOOD AS A NECESSITY TO SURVIVE (Base MM Vampires are negative energy subservient, preying on blood as an inescapable craving) she got aged some 300 years by her Husband's agiing touch. So the way it screws them over is that the Vampire missed out on any abilities they would gain as a Lord of Land. This does not however prevent them from becoming Elder Evil or a Demon Lord, however.

Actually wait, I nearly forgot to mention, due to how Vampires work, age 1000 Patriarchs can effectively serve as either a Demon lord, Archdevil, or whatever the equivalent is, based on what they chose their extra Polymorph form to be and how their lord of the Land abilities work. Notably though, there was no coverage on the concept of variant vampire Dhampirs, despite them being a thing.

Ravenloft also had Vorlogs, which were ex-vampire victims tainted with their "lovers embrace" to the degree where the reenact the "tradegy" that saved them as partially vampiric creatures in their own right.

Couple this next to the vampire bride ritual and the fact that Ravenloft did cover the concept of diablerie and 3.5 has VTMB tier ghouls, D&D vampires are fucking broken as shit.

Liches get Salient abilities, Lich Power rituals, Lich Artefacts and Lich Spells/Dweomers and Planar Management abilities and variant abilites as demilichs, but the Vampire? Fuck man, the only reason they're not a bigger threat is that they all die in droves like Buffy vampires because they're all uncontrollable CE fucks.

Any vampire past 500 is the shit you don't want to fight, even at epic level.

>>54539856
Depends on condition, but that pic makes it seem pretty decent (still glossy as fuck) so 12 bucks isn't bad.
Beware of ebay... it's all shit or overpriced. Garage sales are amazing to find game shit at

>>54540124
Yeah its in really good condition
One corner is a little worn on the back but all the pages are perfect as is the binding
Funny enough they all, local stores that is, had most of the AD&D 1e reprints for Gary's funeral

>>54540112
Infact, to list how broken things can get going with 2e-3.5's
>Human Greater Vampire (Patriarch)
>3 Levels in Vampire Master
>9 Levels in Lifedrinker (doesn't need the 10th, sunlight immune already, but can take if he wants to use his base powers in sunlight)
>Necrotic Reserve feat, because fuck dying
>Enhanced Undead Template for extra anti-fun
>Took up the Demonomicon of Iggwilv Demon Lord Template, or polymorphs into an existing Demon Lord found in published Dragon Magazine coverage
>Takes Swarmshifter, so now it's got it's bat form, in regular and swarm mode wolf form, mist form, and final Castlevania Dracula tier final form)
>Never got a single Salient weakness in it's 1000 years due to aging exploit cheat
>Has the Sign of the Smoking Eye template, so he can cast all aligned spells without error, is also Demon Lord of said layer of the Abyss this template pertains to
>This also lets him never ping properly under check
>Can once per day heal completely when shapeshifting (Best applied with BEHOLD MY TRUE FORM AND DESPAIR)
>Can make Blood Ghouls, those he does me makes into Vampire Brides, or has them take Death's Chosen levels
>Probably has both Katane and Dhampir offspring with a bloodline they have with the Vampire Bloodline class thing.
>Doesn't make spawn, because they're effectively deployable disposable demipowers at this point, and he could flood the multiverse to death with them if he wished.

Hell, according to VR's guide, aging for Vampires is how they gain XP, because they're too lazy so you literally can end up with an infinite XP pool because of the aging exploit, I love how VR basically interviewd a Patriarch (How in the fuck) and confirmed most patriarchs are so old they're no longer CE vampires because they've hit Dead Apostle Ancestors levels of Jyhad boredom because of all the luck and trial and error involved in reaching such a state of supreme power.

>>54540354
From how I understand it, the power level creep goes like this

>Kanchelsis, Immediate Vampire deity that does fuck all because he's basically the defective offspring of divine race-mixing, benefits of a Immediate deity and Patriarch vampire with no salient weaknesses, levels in Rogue and Wizard
>Vlad Tolenkov from 1e, who by 3.5 is the Consort of Lloth and head of the Union of Eclipses, the old peoples club who barely get together to give their sire the faith he needs to do fuck all in his layer of the Abyss because he wants to Camarilla, but his sire won't let him. Is also the reason Drow like vampires the way they do.
>Union of Eclipses (Multiversal gathering of the oldest vampires who trace their lineage to Kanchelsis)
>Unnamed Patriarch Van Richten Interviewed
And somewhere at the lowest, Strahd.

D&D vampire lore is pretty neato. Shame it got shafted for Orcus, just like Liches.

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Which Monsterous Manual do I want? A local store has II, but I'd be willing to buy 1 online if it's the better choice

>>54540542
Strahd is extremely powerful, dude, but not due to vampirism really. He's a high level necromancer, a Dark Lord, and extremely intelligent. He's probably the most dangerous Dark Lord in the setting, to be honest. Some others are deadlier in combat, some are sneakier and plot better, but Strahd is a big thinker and long term planner. He'll let people go into his keep, mess up his stuff and steal from him all as a prelude to them using all that junk to fuck with his rivals.
>>54540589
The Monstrous Compendium is better, I think. That, and there's always Lomion for whatever else you might need.

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>>54540740
thanks
Now I'm debating on which PHB to get...for an extra twenty bucks I can get the premium or the black of a as of yet unknown quality though

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>>54537757
I think thief is okay but it's underbalanced.

I actually think many of the skills they have to develop would be well done if they were simply granted. For example, what if thieves could just move silently at will? Tradition dictates they might have to be unarmoured or have soft footwear or what have you but but what if they could just -do- it. What if levelling let them do it in less likely circumstances like carrying an unconscious comrade or wearing mail or hefting loot. Same with some of the other skills, like maybe 'detect noise' can just be a thing they can do with more advanced thieves being able to discern conversations though doors or hear specific sounds against lots of background noise.

Maybe this could apply to other thieve's skills, I dunno. Picking locks and finding traps should always be ambiguous but some of the other stuff would work well if they were just things that thieves could be counted on to do.

>>54538505
They're a good way of meddling with spellcasting wizards.

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>>54536089
That was a great read... I haven't DMed yet so I haven't looked through the DMG except to look up items. I know a bit about people's desire to play as special snowflakes. In one of my games I am in a party of 5 Elves and I'm the only high elf. Everyone else has to be a fucking grey elf/drow/water elf (of course the Drow is an outcast who wants to resist his races dark urges... fucking kill me now).

If I start DMing I am going to ban all snowflakes. Anyone who plays a snowflake characters is going to be a detriment to a party through their selfish urge to stand out.

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>Thieves should be hanged.

Do you agree with Bombaata?

As someone who has meddled in rpgs for over a decade but never really played DnD for more than a session or two...

Would it be hard to get a group of people who learned the game on 4th and 5th to play ADD?

>>54541508
You'd have to persuade them to try, but mechanically it's not hard. Just make some cards for easy rules reference, the book is poorly indexed so that will help a lot.

>>54540354
That sounds like a bunch of false edition nonsense, not True AD&D® (2E, 1E, BD&D, OD&D). Van Richten's Guide to Vampires is a 1991 publication, RR3, TSR 9345. There's no way Van Richten would have been talking about gaining levels in absurd "prestige" classes for True AD&D® when such things do not exist (other than in false editions).

>>54540589
You want to collect every Monstrous Compendium sheet collection plus every individual sheet from every boxed set, adventure, accessory, and magazine.

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>>54540740
>as if Lomion actually has all the sheets

>>54541775
Eh, Ravenloft was mostly unmolested by 3.5, it was effectively untouched beyond what went down with Lord Soth, and Liches till have Salient abilities in 3.5 I mean, the edition change from 2e-3e was effectively the result of Vecna's wild ride in Sigil, a 2e Adventure.

>>54541831
At least that absurd adventure (Die, Vecna, Die!) gave us the "homunculus" spell, a necessary addition to True AD&D®.

Ravenloft was touched throughout 2E. They revised the entire setting early on in its lifetime, before the mid '90s in fact. Shook up the core, shook up the islands. Caused untold confusion I'm sure. Now people get to fight over which 2E Ravenloft is the True Ravenloft.

Thoughts on Battlesystem?

Personally, I just prefer 2E Ravenloft to later edition Ravenloft. In my opinion, 2E Ravenloft is way less friendly or survivable, which better captures the atmosphere of Ravenloft. Same goes for Dark Sun.

>>54541912
Which 2E Ravenloft? 1990–1994 or 1994+?

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>>54536089
>>54536980
>>54537350
>>54539114

This is the problem D&D consistently has. It can't have it both ways.

It touts having a "humanocentric" society except oh look elves, dwarves, halflings, gnomes and even orcs in varieties are core races that you can just play outta the starting gate. And whether or not those races are alien or just human but with a variant culture taped on it dances around cause it doesn't or can't commit to either.

Which invariably begs the question, "Why are elves, dwarves, halflings and orcs okay as playable races but not beast kin, dragonborn or aasimar?" and the invariable answer always becomes

"THESE DON'T FIT MY NARROW DEFINITION OF FANTASY THAT THIS SINGLE RPG GAVE ME I'M TRIGGERED REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE"

And it's absurd because early D&D was totally just Gygax and friends sitting around grab bagging from whatever fantasy they liked so... why isn't that okay nowadays?

>>54541812
They basically do, though, barring a couple specific ones out of Dragon, uniques like the Dark Lords of Ravenloft or Awnsheghlein of Birthright, or things like that.

>>54523435
Bad parts: Thac0, inflexible character design (crappy multiclassing, specific race-class combos), class imbalance. The classes in general. Also alignment, but that's still around

>>54541895
Ironically that very same issue plagued the Sword and Sorcery Conversions of Ravenloft, between 3.0 and 3.5.

At least they made a complete Ravenloft timeline.pdf
That was nice of them.

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>>54541895
>what is the true ravenloft
Pic related is the only true ravenloft for me. It not only started the whole genre, but it's one of, if not the best early examples of isometric mapping

>>54542101
The pages they're missing from Polyhedron Newszine alone make that statement inaccurate.

Lomion doesn't even have the Goblin Spider from MC6 Kara Tur appendix.

Let me tell you about the first time I ran 3rd edition and the exact moment knew the real difference between it and AD&D 2e as it mattered to me.

>Year 2000, excited for the new edition
>Come late to the game regardless. Spent the weekend with the books in preparation for a short adventure.
>The players have had a couple of months with it, still feel like I am veteran enough in AD&D to run it fine.
>Nice classic scenario, Orc marauders that sort of thing.
>In the cliffs above the village the first skirmish breaks out, forged steel meets the stone weapons of the orcs.
>Ranger comes up against a savage warrior who has the initiative.
>Roll for the orc, he misses.
>Say "your weapons clash sending sparks up as he drives his stone axe over and over against your guard, forcing you back a couple of meters as he stays right on top of you."
>Player says "You can't do that."
>What
>"What can't I do? Miss?"
>Player explains to me that I can't just move his character because if the orc had an ally (he didn't but IF he did) there would be an attack of opportunity involved. I have to use a special action to move him.
>He's right of course but I'm taken off guard all the same, realising that I have to reign-in my descriptions in case they step on the toes of the mechanics.
>Feel a bit sad, but the game was good all the same.
>Spend many months second guessing my descriptions in case I illegally put players into undue harm.

That's the major thing for me. There's lots of differences, but that was the moment I really understood the new approach. I still prefer older games I can say a character is blasted backwards by a blow from an ogres club and the like without fear of wrinkling up parts of the rules.

>>54543441
Also Lomion only uses one "version" of each monster. Even though there are 4 different one-footed giant things, whatever those are, they just have one. Bhaergala has 4 sentences instead of full page MC3 entry. Aratha has 2 sentences instead of full page Myth Drannor entry. Sad!

>>54542017
>elves, dwarves, halflings, gnomes and even orcs in varieties are core races that you can just play outta the starting gate.
Racial minimums. Also, such PCs are expected to be foreign buggers who raise eyebrows wherever they go.

>but not beast kin, dragonborn or aasimar?
Animal-people are almost always a fetish thing, but the answer to your question really is "it's a matter of setting".
>... why isn't that okay nowadays?
The setting should be built with player expectations in mind, but if you join an existing group they shouldn't change things for you.

>grab bagging from whatever fantasy they liked
From whatever fantasy rules they had on hand, actually.
CHAINMAIL only had Tolkienshit as a cash grab, Gygax wasn't a fan.

>>54537859
Find me rules on that. I'm almost certain it only restricts spells, armor use, thief abilities, etc.

What do you guys think of the combat skills and non combat skills?

>>54542017
>It touts having a "humanocentric" society except oh look elves, dwarves, halflings, gnomes and even orcs in varieties are core races that you can just play outta the starting gate. And whether or not those races are alien or just human but with a variant culture taped on it dances around cause it doesn't or can't commit to either.

Because those fantasy races are essentially a distillation of very specific human characteristics. Dwarves are basically a bunch of stereotypical men's men who like drinking beer and building shit. Elves are more effeminate and artistic, orcs are savages who depict most of humanities most animal traits.... etc.

See this article: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FiveRaces

Dragonborn and various yiff hybrids are just for snowflakes with fetishes.

>>54543538
I can confirm it. If you use any element of your old class (thac0, saves, etc) you get no experience for the encounter and half for the adventure. You CAN do it, mind you, but you are admonished not to because it represents your character slipping back into his old ways, like a class isn't so much a job but a lifelong pursuit and philosophy and encompassing two is just really hard for humans.

>>54543678
>I can confirm it.
You can with a quote.

>>54543696
Sure.

>"This is not to imply that a dual-class human forgets everything he knew before; he still has, at his fingertips, all the knowledge, abilities, and proficiencies of his old class. But if he uses any of his previous class's abilities during an encounter, he earns no experience for that encounter and only half experience for the adventure. The only values that can be carried over from the previous class without restriction are the character's Hit Dice and hit points. The character is penalized for using his old attack or saving throw numbers, weapons or armor that are now prohibited, and any special abilities of the old class that are not also abilities of the new class. (The character is trying to learn new ways to do things; by slipping back to his old methods, he has set back his learning in his new character class.)"

From 2e PHB.

>>54543639

that sure is a lot of artistic jacking off to a gaggle of races that're only there because they're there.

I mean why aren't dragonborn codification for human greed and arrogance or teiflings reflection on mens hubris?

And you're gonna tell me that elves have never just been fetish fuel for ANYONE? On /tg/. The place where elf slave wat do is a meme.

>>54543496

> Also, such PCs are expected to be foreign buggers who raise eyebrows wherever they go.

I've honest to god never seen anyone play races like that. Maybe in like super low fantasy or actual Tolkein games but never in D&D.

Because the thing is: when you present something in the core book it's an assumed part of the setting. It's common. That's what people think when they see it. Elves and dwarves just hang around humans in D&D fantasy, because that's just how it is.

Man, that book cover brings me back.
Many memories.

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>>54535870
High-as-fuck-level clerics with 18 wisdom must be more common in your games than the ones I've been in. In my experience, when your 6th level character gets drained a level, there's no way in hell you're gonna have access to a 14th level cleric with 18 wisdom to restore that--not in 2 years, much less 2 weeks.

>>54543781
Yeah, it's really fucking stupid.

>>54545238
Yeah, I'm not sure why they bothered unless they were really desperate to justify this or that NPC having varied abilities without strictly having to make them non-human.

Like, Conan probably wouldn't just be a fighter, really. He's probably some kind of fighter/thief, just for example.

>>54545213
I see 4 chumps on your list who would be more than happy to be owed a favor.
Greyhawks not particularly big. Especially with all the magic items floating around.

>>54546133 c >>54525087
>It's very loosely based on the OD&D class change rules in Men & Magic.


When OD&D was written, "Why not have multiple characters" would have been such an alien concept that you couldn't rest the idea on anywhere (conceptually).
There was no distinction between characters and players at the time. When they died, they iterated the roman numeral next to their name, rolled stats etc., and turned up behind the next corner in the dungeon.
What dualclassing is rooted in isn't "one dude doing multiple things." It comes from a proto-"have multiple characters" rule, but one with weird penalties to fit within an odd paradigm.

what do you think in unifying all non combat skills,saving throws and thief skills in a roll under d20 system?

>>54530093

For all who come by this later, ThAC0 doesn't have to be two negatives.

It's a target number. Just add enemy AC and your bonuses to the d20 roll and see if you hit.

If a character does not haves an skill he cant attemp to do it?

>>54546804
"I'm an English man-at-arms with a serious problem that needs to be addressed within two weeks' time, but that's okay, because the Holy Roman Emperor will fix it for sure!"

>>54541895
Also then in 1998 the "Grand Conjunction" changed everything again.

What combat house rules have you use? do you think weapon speed makes sense?

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>>54548364
Hot diggedy, yes, i love weapon speed.

What logical sense the individual speeds make is always up for debate and re-interpretation but it works wonderfully with the idea that actions are declared in general terms -before- initiative is rolled (which happens every round, mind). So your party will have some idea of when various attacks/spells/etc will take place but never to a certainty. It works great once you get the swing of it.

>>54547706
Level one Fighters used to be called "Veteran." Level four Fighters used to be called "Hero."
Anyone who is, or who used to be, above level 8 should have constant (but not trivial) access to such people.

How do players increase their ability scores?

Good parts:

Easy to run.
Easy to modify due to relatively compartmentalized nature of rules.
Easy to make content for.
Quick combat.

Bad parts:

Weapon balance is all of the place.
Class balance is pretty terrible, though not as terrible as 3.5.
The thief is complete garbage.
Race balance is wonky and level limits don't work.
Multiclassing/dualclassing are both awful for different reasons.
Non-weapon proficiencies are garbage that don't work well.
The game winds up with the same problem as 3.x at later levels, where the party winds up as support staff for the caster, though the caster can't replace the fighter this time (replacing the thief is easy though).

>>54548967
Magic items

>>54548193
GC is not from 1998. Are you thinking of the Domains of Dread hardcover? Because the only thing that changed was giving you shit for starting as Ravenloft natives.

>>54524058
Dual-classing is not OP in any situation but theoreticals were everyone starts at level 20 (which is fucking boring anyway) because it has insane requirements in a game where leveling is really fucking slow.
A multiclassed demihuman is basically always better, particularly when playing without level limits, and a straight class will get access to mulitple attacks/strong spells/become competent/survive saves long before the dual class even becomes viable.

My local book store has the DM's guide for 2nd edition ADND for a buck

What am I in for

>>54549790
>in a game where leveling is really fucking slow.
Remember to use the 1 GP = 1 XP optional rule, that's what those XP curves were designed for.

>>54549802
An immediate purchase, hopefully. Good reads, old DM guides.

>>54549842

yeah I was going to get it but was only crusing by on my way to grab a bite and didn't bring any extra cash. I'll stop by tomorrow

>>54549810
Don't forget the rules where fighters gain bonus XP for winning fights and bonus XP for wizards and clerics for casting spells wisley.

The rules in 2e are pretty good for that.

>>54538951
Broken builds are mainly 2E kits and late 2E supplements with retarded shit like starting with magic items, which relatively few people care about enough to talk about.

>>54548364
I used to, but I found combat flows better without using it and instead opting for group initative that's rolled every round. (eg monsters roll one die, players one)
It gives players a bit of leeway in which order they want something done as well without referencing scores. "Well i'll do this so you can do that".

>>54549928
Group initiative + weapon speed looks nice. Only one roll, but multiple results because of speed. Same with monsters.

>>54546898
Pretty sure dual classing comes from a particular player Gygax was DMing for trying to do off-class shit and Gary just coming up with a way to do it off the seat of hits pants or something.

>>54550488
The entirety of AD&D was just kludging together a ton of houserules. It was literally what a bunch of hobbyists came up with spontaneously, and it only spread so far and became so important because they were the first and only ones, at the time, to do it.

>>54550430
IMO weapon speeds lose their charm once you've used them for a while and notice how fiddly fighters become and how OP dex gets.

>>54550538
It became so important because Gygax was A++ at marketing/selling it to people and spent an enormous amount of time doing so.

>>54549928
Grouping has the huge problem of giving the first to act incredible tactical advantage. Getting a few spells off, moving into position, or perhaps even downing the first enemies before they could even act is HUGE. And if the players face a large group of enemies and lose initiative, then they run a real risk of being wiped out before having any chance of doing something as enemy after enemy acts out their turn.

Got a PHB, the black revised one, coming friday and already got the DMG
Any adventure modules you'd recommend for 2e? I've never played any AD&D outside of Baldur's Gate
Oh I'm also intending to pick up those original AD&D through those reprints they did

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>>54555516

>>54555912
So Basic is completely compatible with 2e? Are characters stronger under 2e rules? If so it'd be a boon since I'll only have 3 players rather than 5

>>54555516
Plenty. AD&D has pretty much the best modules there are. Depends on what you're looking for specifically, though, and you may wish to tone down the massive loot rewards that are often included. Against the Cult of the Reptile God is a pretty neat starter adventure, for instance, with lots of ensorceled NPCs, intrigue, and eventually a raid on the cult HQ. I6 Ravenloft is a classic, for specifically saying that Strahd is smart and giving tips on how to play him as a clever, tactical, and viciously cunning adversary. Reverse Dungeon is fun, though not really meant for normal play, as each person is playing some monsters. The Slavelords adventures are also pretty good, and serve as a pretty long-term campaign.

>>54556158
They are a bit stronger in 2e, but older versions of D&D are mostly cross-compatible with little to no effort on your part. You may wish to give them some henchmen, some excited and brave crew that go ashore with the party, for instance. If they lack a priest for healing, that's a pretty damn essential hole to fill. Even more essential than a thief!

>>54556176
>>54556159
Ravenloft might be a little hardcore to start with for my group atm
So I was thinking the Basic adventures, King then Queen, maybe letting them be beefier than normal with a slight level gain since we'll do a few of them
Then Slavelords or Dragonlance as a long term adventure

>>54549592
Grim Harvest

>>54556176
>If they lack a priest for healing, that's a pretty damn essential hole to fill.
There are a lot of 2e modules that care about party composition, but basically none of the older ones do.

>>54556251
Village of Hommlet -> Keep on the Borderlands -> Temple of Elemental Evil is good too, though it's pretty Greyhawk'd. Not that you can't just change names, really.
Slavelords is a pretty fun adventure series. For high level shit there's Gates of Firestorm Peak, a BRUTAL adventure if you aren't about 8th-9th level in a group of 4-5. Still, it's fun if you can get through the deadly combat you are likely to face.

>be me
>be psionicist
>don't need no party
>just use clairvoyance to cruise through the local dungeon and teleport object / summon object to pick up treasure along the way
>chill out in the inn the whole time accumulating xp

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>>54556158

Here's a (poorly sized) copy of the conversion rules from the Rules Cyclopedia.

>>54556369
That's when you get infested with a billion thought eaters and brain moles. That'll teach you to skip my dungeon, peon!
>>54556316
Not many modules care, but for actual playability having no access to a healer means you take FOREVER to heal. It's an ease of play thing to have a priest and healer around, even if that's all they do, and stay at the campsite just to do that.

>>54556404
thanks I was gonna pick up the original MM and Unearthed Arcana and now I'll have an actual use for them

>>54556369
Does 2e not have a psionic wandering monster table?

>>54556433

Well, the original MM and Unearthed Arcana are 1st Edition AD&D which converts well to 2e. 2e is effectively a compilation of rules from 1e that are scattered about the rule books.

RC is part of the Basic/Expert/Champion/Master/Immortals line. It's simpler, and some early modules (like X1 Isle of Dread) are made for it. The RC is a compilation/reference work. Some like it, some don't (there are changes to the Basic rules, and Thieves especially get screwed with having their thief skills spread out to 36 levels).

It's my desert island game though. If I could only take one RPG book with me into exile or whathaveyou, that's the book I would take.

Also, if you're dead set on playing AD&D, Unearthed Arcana has the Cavalier, and makes Paladins a subclass of the Cavalier, which makes them significantly more badass than they were before.

>>54556505
Bx, BECMI, and RC are all part of the Basic product line.
But saying RC is part of BECMI is disingenuous.
Even saying Bx is part of BECMI would be.

>>54523435
The Complete Book of Humanoids is the best "monster PC" ever made for D&D

>>54544231
>And you're gonna tell me that elves have never just been fetish fuel for ANYONE? On /tg/. The place where elf slave wat do is a meme.

I've never claimed that the established races have never been used as fetish material by degenerates. However, the established non-human races do not originate from those sick urges, they began as something more meaningful.
They represent a minimal selection of races that have been ingrained in our culture's mythology for a long time, and as such have well-established and understood personality traits and cultures that can be used as a common reference point. If you read the segment from the 2nd edition DMG, you will see that the writer has emphasized his belief that it is important to have a well fleshed-out, common, usable reference point in order to have players truly connect with their player characters and genuinely role-play, rather than just explore their body-dysphoric sexual urges or whatever else motivates someone to be a fucking chaotic neutral dragonborn half-yiff vampire faggot. This is true of Elves, Dwarves, Gnomes, Halflings, and Orcs - they are different from humans, but having been well established in our mythology and ultimately being distillations of basic emotions and personality traits that humans identify with, they are different but not entirely alien.

It's possible that dragonborn could have been established as the embodiment of greed and ambition or something like that, but I don't think they have the history that conventional non-humans do. Also, a dragon is a monster at the end of the day, so the dragon part is almost by definition impossible to connect and identify with. The Dwarves do a great job of embodying greed already, without having part-monster ancestry.

>>54544231

Anything can be used as fetish fuel.

I'm going to take a different approach from the other anons, and instead ask you questions:

Why do you want to play as a dragonborn? What about being a half-man, half-dragon appeals to you aside from the mechanical benefits and the possible power trip?

What kind of society would dragonborn have in a hypothetical setting? Are they slaves to dragons, do they have ethnic neighborhoods in major cities? Are they they ruling class? How do they feel about dog-men and fox-men?

As a side note, part of the reason dragonborn and tieflings rub people the wrong way isn't because they exist, it's because they got dropped like fetishy ordinance into settings that didn't already have them, like Dark Sun, and it was a poor fit. Tieflings work fine in Planescape, and dragonborn could have worked as playable draconians in Dragonlance, but it's hard to swallow that there have been dragonborn all along in Ravenloft.

>>54557698
>>54558045
I have been on this site for more years than I'd care to admit, and this is the most elaborate way of saying 'hurr furries' I've ever seen.

>>54558727

I wanted only to get at why that anon is so hellbent on having those sorts of races playable.

But, in any case, were I making a clone of an early edition of D&D, I'd have non-humans in an appendix or the DM's guide, with guidance about giving them a place in the world beyond just "humans, but [trait]".

As an example, I have a difficult time justifying gnomes in any of my homebrew settings. I can never find a place for them to fit, so I axe them. Just because something is in the PHB doesn't mean you should use it or make it available in all cases.

This is especially true of AD&D where the rules were MEANT to be modular, not dictums one must abide by.

>>54558045
I hate how that one Ravenloft board game had to include a Dragonborn front and centre as though they were a core element.
Bah, waste of the setting. No intrigue. no atmosphere.

>>54558045
>People who play as Dragonborn and not Dragonkin
Shit taste. Fuck Dragondreadlocks man.

>>54558830
You both have a point. If a race doesn't fit the setting or doesn't work as a PC race for cultural/plot/whatever reasons, then it shouldn't be a PC race. But if the race exists in the setting, and nothing really prevents one of its kind from working as an adventurer, you don't have an argument against someone playing it. All else being equal there's no fundamental difference between playing an elf, playing a half-dragon, or playing an anthro fox.

>>54559010

I agree with you, and in my current group, we often refluff a race to be something different, but similar. For example, I've been running a sword and planet game where one player is a caveman (a variant human), another is a green man (a human with a different pigment), and another player is a dwarf who is a big tall hairy Sasquatch.

I can't see telling a player no if they want to play a fox man who uses elf stats, if fox people could conceivably exist in the setting (or have already been shown to exist).

I'd probably allow a gnoll in an AD&D, but looking at the Complete Book of Humanoids, the gnoll as is is essentially fucking over the player for very little reason. They get +1 Str and some optional weapon and non-weapon proficiencies for a -1 to Intelligence and Charisma, a very restricted class list with low level maximums, and they take damage as large creatures.

It'd be more fair to the player to refluff a half-orc.

So, I don't know. It depends on the setting ultimately, and there's little reason that you couldn't make a "human" and call him a lizard man. I don't think you'd get much argument from me if you wanted some infravision because your lizard man has heat sensing pores in his snout or something. Not really a big deal.

>>54558871
>waste of the setting
Especially as Ravenloft is the closest the D&D settings get to human-only, with there being very few native demihumans outside of a few domains.

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For the slave lords should I use the individual issues or the revised Scourge of the Slave Lords?
I only ask because the recommended levels are different so god knows what else is

Good books about hexcrawl and dungeon delving?
I want to make a homebrew AD&D with that OSR feel, but in a whole different setting than Tolkien-esque medieval fantasy

>>54559425

X1 is literally the "how to do a hexcrawl" example module. I'd also recommend checking out Carcosa (be warned, it's graphic), but it is a pretty good toolkit, and very non-Tolkien in its stylings. My major gripe with it is that there's not really any large settlements, so there's very few places to spend treasure or do much of anything outside of plundering tombs.

The dice mechanic is nifty, but slows down play.

>>54557698
You are projecting, hard, and anthropomorphized animals are way the fuck older that Tolkien style elves.

>>54559635
>You are projecting, hard

My characters are a human, a normal dwarf, and a standard high elf. I define my characters by playing believable personalities and developing their story over time through their actions... not by piling on superficial physical/racial traits right out of the gate. So no, I'm not projecting. I would be projecting if I was a raging elfboo who played elves cuz muh fetish.

>anthropomorphized animals are way the fuck older that Tolkien style elves.

I imagine most of them are monsters, or are so alien that a human could not really roleplay them with a solid frame of reference.

Most of the part or complete monster PCs seem like people who don't understand good role playing attempting to make their characters special by piling on unusual racial traits to their character instead of defining their character through their role playing.

>>54558045
Surely Ravenloft is one of the easiest settings to justifying adding a new PC race to? The Dread Powers are grabbing realms all the time, they just didn't get around to grabbing one where Dragonborn lived until recently - boom, problem solved.

>>54559635

Mythic creatures like that tend to be either monsters, gods, or shapeshifters, which don't particularly fit the standard tone of AD&D. Not that you can't modify AD&D to have shapeshifting badger people and immortal spirit animals with magical powers, but it is a decided shift in how the game is presented.

It's also probably not going to work well if you have standard humans, elves, and dwarves running around. If I wanted to run a game with anthropomorphized animals in an Egyptian themed setting, the PCs would be crocodile men, cat men, jackel men, etc. and humans would be 0 level people (and not capable of having adventurer levels at all, representing the supernatural nature of the PCs and their status as demigods related to Sobek, Bast, and Anubis).

>>54559957

A single adventurer or two, sure. Maybe a new realm where dragonborn are the dominant species and the new Dread Lord is a dragon or something, yes. But not just a random "you can play dragonborn because they're in the PHB" thing.

There would also need to be a sensible discussion about how they're going to be viewed with suspicion outside of that dragonborn realm, possibly on the same level as calibans, since they essentially look like monsters.

>>54556418
>>54556448
I'm not using ethereal traveler though, just clairvoyance. Them shits are miles away, wandering around on their table. I'm in my room at the inn with no pants on, piling up coins and magical items one-by-one.

>>54558830
Modular insofar as designing one's campaign setting. DARK SUN™ takes the rules and says which and how they apply to the setting. The rules themselves are the rules.

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I think I'm good to roll
Just need to grab Ravenloft

>>54560225

Yes, in a sense. You could argue that all published campaign settings are just examples of how to take the basic rules in the PHB and add or delete elements to create a particular "texture" for your own settings.

But, obviously, nothing is stopping you from changing things in an established setting. It just needs to have a good justification. You could delete kender and gully dwarves from Dragonlance if you liked, and barely anything would change.

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>>54543475
The correct response to this player and all players like them is "I am altering the rules"

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>>54560151
Doesn't matter. Think to hard and they'll think you right back.

>>54560513
>check for random encounters as is normal
No random encounters in my room at the inn

>>54560385
I find that the point of using an established, published setting is to bring the facts of its ecology, economy, society, etc. and the rules that govern such to life by means of these rules in themselves. The rules of the FORGOTTEN REALMS® are so rich by the time of 2E that it's the best to run "by the book" in order to bring the most to players in a setting they enjoy already. Volo's Guide to All Things Magical even finally explains the rules by which 9th- and higher level wizards can actually make magical items. The mysteries of True AD&D® are laid bare by means of a FORGOTTEN REALMS® campaign run by the book(s).

>>54560556
Your referee needs to up his game

>>54560621

See, I'm not a True AD&D® adherent. I don't like the FORGOTTEN REALMS®, and much prefer Ravenloft and Dragonlance if I have to use an established setting. I like running homebrew settings, and am more an OSR fag than anything else (AD&D is fiddly and inconsistent).

But I like talking about AD&D, and even if I'm not generally going to run the system (I have in the past), I can at least advise those who wish to.

>>54560621
>>54560747

I'm curious, oh prophet of the True AD&D®:

Do you use the racial ability score minimums, and the racial level maximums in your games, or do you do away with them?

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The AD&D™ game system does not allow the injection of extraneous material. That is clearly stated in the rule books. It is thus a simple matter: Either one plays the AD&D™ game, or one plays something else, just as one either plays poker according to Hoyle, or one plays (Western) chess by tournament rules, or one does not. Since the game is the sole property of TSR and its designer, what is official and what is not has meaning if one plays the game. Serious players will only accept official material, for they play the game rather than playing at it, as do those who enjoy “house rules” poker, or who push pawns around the chess board. No power on earth can dictate that gamers not add spurious rules and material to either the D&D® or AD&D™ game systems, but likewise no claim to playing either game can then be made. Such games are not D&D® or AD&D™ games — they are something else, classifiable only under the generic “FRPG” catch-all. To be succinct, whether you play either game or not is your business, but in order to state that you play either, it is obviously necessary to play them with the official rules, as written.

— E. Gary Gygax, November 1982

>>54560747
what other game system capture the feel of AD&D 1e and 2e?

>>54560825

There are retroclones. OSRIC is essentially 1e cleaned up, and could be used as a reference. 2e has For Gold & Glory. Both are compatible with TSR produced AD&D material.

>>54560778
The official way to adjudicate demihuman leveling, multiclassing, and all other sorts of demihuman rules in the FORGOTTEN REALMS® is actually explicitly laid out in the DEMIHUMAN DEITIES™ rulebook's appendix from the FAITHS & AVATARS™ series.

So in the Realms, by the book, all races have unlimited level advancement. The optional rule of triple xp requirements past racial level limit is implemented, and no bonus to level limits for exceptional ability scores. This is canon and by the book for FORGOTTEN REALMS® campaigns. Maximum levels are somewhat higher in general, as the tables are also altered. Elves can be druids in the Realms (drow also).

Racial ability score minimums and maximums are employed prior to racial ability adjustments, as per usual. There are a lot more demihuman rules for Realms campaigns in that appendix as well. Most useful is perhaps the official way to handle multiclassing. Hit point totals are always represent a real number from which remainders are dropped, but the total is always increasing with every class hit die gain. The remainders eventually become a whole hit point and are accounted for. Full CON bonus applied every time a class levels, as well. Hit dice rolls always kept, divided by total number of classes, fractions dropped. Official Realms way to do things. But in the Realms, demihuman advancement is unlimited—triple xp required past maximum level, no bonus for prime requisites.

>>54560866
was talking more about other games beside retroclones

>>54560825
Someday, True AD&D™ will exist as a uniform series of hardcovers like that joke picture of all the GURPS books. Wizard spells, Priest spells, equipment, martial arts, magical items, races, classes, kits, nautical, space, all sorts of things will have rulebooks. Every word printed for the TSR D&D® systems will be sorted and pieced together in a clean, flawless set. There will be no other system that will be able to contend with its excellence.

>>54560792

I wonder how Gary felt about material produced after Lorraine Williams bought him out from TSR.

>>54560966

Ah. I'm afraid I can't really help you there. There's actually not that many games like D&D out there. Plenty that are explicitly designed to "not be D&D" and plenty that are trying to D&D's thing, but "better".

The one's trying to be D&D buy "better" are probably Harn, Rolemaster, Hackmaster (in jokey sort of way), and Palladium Fantasy.

I have played none of them, so I can't tell you if they "feel" like AD&D at all.

>>54560997

If it's not published by TSR, wouldn't that make it just "playing at" AD&D rather than playing AD&D? Would it not by definition be a retroclone that's just an FRPG as Gary says?

>>54561045
Not if it's printed by HasbotC under its legal imprint, TSR. With no words altered, only re-arranged and different color boxes put around different things. Proficiency book will be heady.

>>54559367
I'd recommend the combined version that has all. I don't know if it's original, revised, or what but it should be fine.
>>54560151
You don't need to be ethereal for them to drain you, just psionic. They drain you from the ethereal like little bastards.
>>54560556
Says you. Random encounters can strike anywhere: thus the name. They aren't called dungeon encounters or whatever, but random!

>>54561227
Yeah that 30-foot range might be a problem for them.

>>54558830

>This is especially true of AD&D where the rules were MEANT to be modular, not dictums one must abide by.

D&D has always had a problem where it INFERRS this but doesn't exactly meet the player half way. To the point where homebrewing for D&D SEEMS like it should be a simple affair of number crunching and understanding the mechanical setups but the sheer vastness in quality in any given homebrew of D&D show how much it considers homebrew an afterthought.

D&D expects you to run it as its very particular and specific idea of fantasy, one that it practically created. There's nothing wrong with that mind it's just important to note that calling D&D modular when we have actual examples of modular games out there like GURPS or HERO system is kinda laughable.

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>>54546133

>>54561418
Brain moles can get you while burrowed beneath the building you're in, thought eaters can get you from anywhere connected to the Ethereal plane. You're boned dude! Nowhere is safe for psions, even more than any other class.

>>54561790
You're actually very safe in the Ethereal.
Cerebral parasite are the only common concern there.

>>54561897
Are you kidding? If you're IN the ethereal then you're hyper fucked, there's some god damned bastard monsters that fuck around from the deep to the border ethereal. That, and thought eaters can still get you if you, too, are in the ethereal. They're just extra nasty if you're in the prime and they aren't.

>>54561626

It's modular in that rules subsystems can be removed and it won't actually harm the game (unlike say, 3e, where removing something may cause the entire system to unravel). It doesn't hurt the game to remove demihumans, for example.

>GURPS

Gives you points to make your character stronger in combat by taking drawbacks that aren't actually drawbacks (Eunuch, for example makes you immune to seduction, and only comes into play if people are aware of it, but you get +5 character building points whether it comes up or not), being Lecherous is worse (+15 points) than being Illiterate (+10 points) (somehow) and is one par with being a Sadist (+!5 points as well).

This is also a game where Dancing is a skill you can take, even though it's unlikely to matter in any game that isn't about a dance off, and where said skill is considered to have the same impact on gameplay that combat skills do (to the point that similar skill in Dancing costs the same as the Axe/Mace skill in character points).

Let's not pretend that GURPS is a standard against which we should compare anything, let alone AD&D.

>>54562041

Oh certainly GURPS is stupid and I'm not a fan of it myself.

It's just nonsense to assume that D&D lets you build what you want because it lets you hack away various bits of specifically fluffed and worded content it offers you.

D&D has always been a specific package and not at all a general purpose RPG system. It's arguable if it could even be an all purpose fantasy game given the variances in the fantasy genre itself.

>>54562187

I never said it was a general purpose RPG system, so I agree with you that it isn't. What I meant about it being modular is that you can alter things like the saving throw system to be three, or even one save number and it won't break the system.

You can hack off the 18+ ability scores and it won't break the system. You can remove elves if you don't want the "elf slave, what do" meme to come up in game. You don't have to use proficiencies, or secondary skills, or non-weapon proficiencies and the game will still work.

And by work, I mean it still works as a dungeon crawling, wilderness exploring fantasy game. Trying to turn it into a super heroes game would not work.

>>54561790
Good thing there's no such thing as a psion in True AD&D™ since that's a term from false editions.

>>54562252
I agree, psions and all forms of non-true caster false magics should be banished for all time!

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>>54561964
Thought Eaters are flimsy. The only reason they're a danger is that you can't hit them from the Material.
That's actually the only thing most Border Ethereal monsters have going for them.
And (almost) all the psionic nasties go by the Astral, not the Ethereal.
>there's some god damned bastard monsters that fuck around from the deep to the border ethereal.
Speaking of which, the Deep Ethereal is practically barren.

>>54562287
Psionicists are A-OK, you dolt!
It's just Psions that do the bad things.

>>54562287
Psionicists are fine since the term is appropriate for a class that is a fundamental part of True AD&D™

>>54563249
Belay that, knave! Psionics of all stripes should be stripped from the foundation, like weeds from the path! They represent the foulness of OTHER games intruding into the pure AD&D spirit! Power Points? More like MANA! Using your stats to engage your powers rather than righteous and true spell slots? Absolute barbarity!

>>54563406
>Power Points
>not Psionic Strength Points

t. falseflagger

On the topic of PSPs, how does /2eg/ feel about the conversion errors from Eldritch Wizardy to the Monster Manual?

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>>54561067
>Proficiencies you say?
saw this posted not long ago

>>54563696
That's crazy incomplete as if it's only from the expanded core rather than every piece of published material ever.

>>54563406
The Will and the Way is one of the best books of the canon.

>>54538505
What about slings?

>>54564004
They're fine in a pinch. Ammo is plentiful in most places, easy to conceal and carry around, easy to use. Not a bad choice if you need something like that.

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>>54563696

There's also this.

>>54564100
Doesn't have rabdomancy, not complete

>>54559870
>I imagine most of them are monsters, or are so alien that a human could not really roleplay them with a solid frame of reference.

Well guess what, you're wrong. Read any fairy tale in the goddamn world.

>>54564100
>>54564233
Dowsing — Wizard — 2 slots — Wisdom -1

The character has been trained in the use of a divining rod. While all rhabdomancers begin with the spell to craft an effective rod, this proficiency covers the insight necessary to interpret the finer meanings of the woods tugging and twitching. Apprentice rhabdomancers are taught in the guild the following tenant:

The fork is held by the two limbs, one in each hand, with the point going first and the rod held horizontally. Then the rhabdomancer walks gently over the places where he seeks an object or affection. He should walk with care to not risk dispersing the emanations that rise from the spot where these things are and cause the rod to slant. For example, if the magician is seeking a deposit of gold ore, upon finding a vein a successful dowsing check reveals the purity of the metal. The proficiency also affects the casting of various divination spells. Some of these are blocked by stonework, thick wood, or metal deposits. A skilled rhabdomancer is able to pierce these “walls” with a successful dowsing check (note the below listing of common Divination spells for those cases in which a dowsing check is required). Otherwise, a DM may call for the rhabdomancer to make a proficiency roll to see if any obscure or additional information is discovered.

Also, using this proficiency, a rhabdomancer can locate the proper sapling with which to craft a suitable divining rod. Rare wood types that could be used in making a rod could quite possibly require a successful Dowsing check. At the DM’s discretion, a rhabdomancer may forgo learning a new nonweapon proficiency in order to become better skilled at Dowsing. Each abandoned slot adds 1 to the character’s proficiency roll. This allows an edge for high-level rhabdomancers who remain true to their craft.

>>54564100
>>54564233
>>54564328
Prospecting — General — 1 slot — Dexterity -1

This proficiency grants knowledge in the practice of searching for valuable metals and minerals. There are many techniques available, and the character is fairly familiar with those practiced by his culture (or the culture wherein he was taught prospecting). This includes using metal or wood pans and fine meshes to sift through riverbeds and dirt. A successful check performed on a daily or weekly basis indicates that something of worth was found, though usually such results yield only small gains at most.

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>>54564100
>almost 300 hundred pages

>>54564357

Yep. I didn't make it, but I found it while I was in an AD&D phase after 4e came out. I wanted to discover the roots of D&D, and for a little while, though AD&D 2e was going to be a system I would stick with.

Turns out though, that I hated a lot of the fiddly bits like weapon speed, exceptional strength, and the extremely bloated NWP system.

Skills & Powers also sucks giant donkey dong, so there's that too. But whatever, people can play what they want, and how they want, and it doesn't affect me.

>>54564561
>extremely bloated NWP system
Hence why I posted >>54563696
I thought it was a bloated system myself, and I found this useful. I can tell the weapon shit is houseruled and there's mention of scout and monk classes, but I use it regardless

>>54564561
>he thinks Skills & Powers is part of True AD&D™

>>54564561
Everybody and their uncle files the fiddly bits off.
Deciding what's fiddly is where the bloodbaths start.

>>54564100
>Complete Nonweapon Proficiencies
>doesn't have Spelljamming proficiency
For what purpose?

>>54564862

Don't put words in my mouth, True AD&D™ anon. I just said it sucked.

>>54564940

Agreed.

>>54565056

Take it up with the guy(s) who made it. I only posted it as a curiosity, or resource for anons wishing to get knee deep in the AD&D battlefield.

>>54565196
Bringing up Skills & Powers in a critique of 2E was for what, comparing 2E to an inferior edition (Skip Williams spawn of Lorraine show me the birth certificate false edition apocrypha)?

You know the problem with the Player's Option system? It made it so that the players had control over how the DM ran the game. They'd claim that the options were THEIR options, as players. It's the Player's Option system, after all. So a DM had to be bound by their demands regarding the system, or aspects of it.

>>54560792
>arbitrarily rip off wargames for crunch
>arbitrarily rip off pulp fiction for fluff
>introduce new races, classes, spells etc. made by himself and his players during the course of his games
>THIS IS THE ONLY TRUE D&D THE ONLY TRUE WAY TO PLAY IT THIS IS THE LAW
What a gassbag.

>>54565651
Says what you will about Lorraine Williams, but everyone before her did even worse jobs running the company. She boarded a sinking ship.

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>>54565669
None dare bind a true DM to anything. Real DMs don't see themselves and friends, facilitators, or entertainers. They are Dungeon Masters. Thieu only obligation is to the game and the game alone. Not the players. Not what other DMs think. Not their own vanity. The game.

>>54567571
Muh daddy's Buck Rogers royalties. Muh I hate RPGs and RPG players.

>>54567571
>>54569231
I was too young at the time my focus was to play, but even if she hated the hobby she would like to profit on it, no?

I hate furries, but if I could profit on them I would do my best.

>>54541775
Are bards not effectively a prestige class?

>>54569561
Not in 2e they aren't.

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>>54570627
Oh yeah, I didn't mean 2e

>>54571083
How this works with dual classes or multiclass? What happens if my half-elf starts as fighter, go thief but then doesn't want to be a bard anymore? He cheated the way half-elves can't dual class?
When thief, the human keep the abilities as fighter or he works as if dual class?

>>54567571
>Lorraine Williams
She's one of the largest cunts (m or f) to ever even be near an actual game, let alone be directing a giant game publisher
>>54569231
This fucking guy gets it
>>54569504
Furries should be destroyed tho

>>54565669
>So a DM had to be bound by their demands regarding the system, or aspects of it.
Yeah, that shit may have happened at some, he'll even most, tables out there, but never in mine.
>inb4 powertrip_dm.exe engaged
No, I crafted a good game, and eventually a good world. I've worked on it on and off for 20some years, and the world and rules for together very well.
It seemed to us (all of us, players and dm alike) that the PO rules just added unneeded bloat to the game.
There are a few things I think came with the books that we frankly already houseruled anyways. Making crossbows more effective and more common was something that we did long before those books came out.
Also
>splitting the core 6 stats into 12
literally why?

>>54571548
>She's one of the largest cunts (m or f) to ever even be near an actual game,
Fair, but Gygax and the Blumes were larger cunts.

>>54572204
Gygax did nothing wrong

>>54571314
>but then doesn't want to be a bard anymore?
Not allowed to.


>How this works with dual classes or multiclass?
I'm also pretty sure it doesn't waive the restrictions on dual-classing.
Stat gains and stat drains tho.

>>54572264
Have you actually read DUNGEON MASTERS GUIDE?

>>54572429

The rules bits are fine. The conversational bits are fine. The issues with the 1e DMG are: 1.) the editing (it's all over the place) and 2.) Gygax apparently thought it was okay to punish problem players in game until they "got" that they were being bad or disruptive, which is a naive approach born of the then experimental nature of RPGs in general.

The 1e DMG is still the best one. It may offer the occasional bad advice, but it can be forgiven - it was written forty years ago in a time before there was a whole lot of competition or experience with the hobby as a whole.

>>54572621

*wasn't, rather.

>>54569561

Bards were the OG prestige class.

>>54572264
This
>>54572621
Also this
I'll also add that the suggested literature section was the shit back in the day. Those kinds of books (and authors) weren't suggested by too many local librarians to kids looking for stuff to read and inspire them

>>54572264
Other than AD&D being a partial attempt to not pay royalties to Dave Arneson you're right

Also the whole lying about now getting royalties later in life.

But generally, I agree that he was more good than bad

>>54572204
Lumping gygax in with the blumes and Lorraine is hogwash.
The single biggest tragedy in those early days of RPGs (and possibly ever) was the early death of gygaxs best friend and gaming partner Don Kaye

>>54573937
>The single biggest tragedy in those early days of RPGs (and possibly ever) was the early death of gygaxs best friend and gaming partner Don Kaye
Why?

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>>54573937

>>54573937
>>54574070

I too would like to know about Don Kaye. I've never heard of him before now.

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Heavy crossbow…1d8+1 S/M and 1d10+1 L, RoF 1/2, price $2000

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46cFQD2dS8s

>>54575490

Well, the PVC pipe shot at least gave me an idea for a trap...

>>54569504
>>54567571
>>54567571
they were terrible at rinning a business sure, and hell they arguably bad people, at least their partners if royalty disputes are to be taken at face value.

But they did care about the game

Williams both of use to position to actively undermine the hobby (which she openly stated she did hated) and make executive decisions purely to benefit her family estate.

She's not just a bad person, she's that guy.

>>54574070
>>54574399
Don Kaye and Gary Gygax founded TSR.
Beyond what's in his Wikipedia, in short:
If he hadn't died (or at least had prepared for his death... fucker had a real bad ticker n knew it) then Gary Gygax would of, at the very least, never had the Blumes involved.
When Gary brought in the Blumes, it was purely because the whole thing would've folded without some capital. Gary got it.
After a few years, the Blumes got more and more control, and Gary shouldn't have let them have it, but back then he was a trusting sort.
When things were going good, in the early 80ies gygax was in Hollywood overseeing TSR entertainment (the cartoon was going and there were talks for a movie) things looked good back home.
Gary found out that TSR Inc (main company) was i dire straights he flew immediately back to lake Geneva and found the Blumes spending money like it was growing in the bushes out back: company cars, executive assistants ... all sorts of stupid shit.
Gary fucking rescued TSR by rushing the original Unearthed Arcana out and the Blumes thanked him by bringing in Lorraine Williams and then forcing him out.

>>54575802
Should've said Gary brought her in, and the Blumes sold out to her to get back at gary... sorry, phone posting
>>54575739
>she's not just bad, she's that guy
Pretty much this.

>>54576062
Gary came back because the Blumes were Reckless with money.
They forced Gary out because he was also reckless with money.
Then they looked around, and realized they were also reckless with money.
They didn't sell out to Lorraine to spite Gary.
They did it to cut their losses.

>>54575802
UA was just a shitty compilation of Dragon Magazine stuff, though.

>>54576447
>They didn't sell out to Lorraine to spite Gary.
>They did it to cut their losses.

That's a bit more forgivable but they really should've realised who they were selling to. TSR was the priced mare in the Kentucky Derby.

There's a difference between selling her to a crappy jockey and selling her to the guy who rules the glue factory.

>>54579389
Well, they were awful with their money, maybe they were also awful reading people to whom sell TSR.

Can I use TSR? Calling my OSR system "The Sacred Rules" (TSR) would call the wrath of WotC?

>>54580589
I'm not a lawyer so can't help you there.

I think under the letter of Trademark you can, but you're dealing with the people who got a the term "tapping" panted. They don't have a reputation for fucking over the little guy but they certainly have the capability.

>>54579389
Lorraine made some unpopular business decisions, but everything she did was a step up from the Blumes.
Things went to shit when Gary went Hollywood. Not when Lorraine came in. Not even when he got fired.
When he fucked off of his own accord.

>>54578987
If you add up all the original material from Dragon, you can make your own UA by Gygax's hand alone. It contains more information on more topics than the hardcover UA—including the Official list of which monsters / races can be charmed / hold-ed (which = persons).

>>54580589
No because this is how True AD&D™ will be compiled and released in the sweet by-and-by.