/osr/ - The Old School Renaissance

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Anyone else hyped for this?

>>54504203
>What's your favorite blog that gets shilled on /osr/?
I follow none of those on principle.

>>54504268
I'm planning to have the villain of my current campaign melt the polar cap to reveal Hyperborea within, awakening from suspended animation. He's got plans there and the party must follow.

All I need is a good map of the whole place.

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I've been trying to figure out how to do healing with limited supplies (first aid kits) for a few days now. The idea being if you take a turn off from exploring and patch yourselves up, you'll be able to heal a bit of health.

Originally, I thought to just make it something like 1d4 or 1d6 + Wisdom modifier. But the problem with that comes with time and scaling; you could patch up a level 1 character to full with this but a high level character would barely be healed by it.

Then I thought, hey maybe make it heal 1 health point PER hit dice you have, so it will always restore aprox 1/6th of your health, which might be too good, but at the same time I wasn't sure how to add Wisdom modifier bonuses to this that wasn't too good.

My game is also aspiring to be pretty high fantasy most of the time, I don't really do death and dismemberment and such, people in my setting heal their injuries pretty well and often with magic so stuff like losing limbs and getting gangrene doesn't happen too much, so perhaps this wouldn't be a bad way to do it.

Any thoughts?

>>54504638
Use flat rates. No dice, just x turns to get y% of your health back, up to a maximum of z. It should be useful but worse than magical healing. Make it a limited resource that varies by class, like 4e's healing surges, so maybe the fighter gets to stop and patch up his wounds 3 times per day but the wizard just can't put up with the strain and only gets to do it once. To prevent cheese and make it a bit more gritty, give it slightly diminishing returns, maybe?

>>54504203
Hard to have a favorite, but there's a few I get a lot out of. Dungeon of Signs, Against the Wicked City and Monsters and Manuals off the top of my head.

>>54504268
I'm pretty excite.

>>54504320
lol people take that shit too serious. Bloggers too. They just like some of the things about a thing you like some of, you don't have to like them as people. Even if you don't the might have an interesting idea you can use.

>>54504203
>What's your favorite blog
Probably one of the more analysis-heavy blogs right now. Delta's D&D Hotspot and whatnot.

> that gets shilled on /osr/?
I think ANT-LERRR got shilled here once? That's a pretty good blog. Lots of weird stuff.

Are there any OSR play videos/podcasts? Especially any with a ton of play derived from improvisation and random chart results, whole cloth?

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How do you determine carry weights? Do you go by weight or by general units?

>>54505344
I just wing it.

What is a good way to create a starter generic city?

>>54505344
I really like the GLOG method

You have a limited number of slots. Going over that limit gets you encumbrance.

Makes it more a matter of 'what tools are useful enough to take up slots' rather than tedious beancounting by weight

>>54505344
(STR * STR)/5 in pounds for unencumbered, then double, triple, and sextuple that for light, medium, and heavy encumbrance. Lower characteristics accordingly.

>>54505656
It really depends on what you intend to use it for.

Is it a city that the campaign can focus on, like the City-State of the Invincible Overlord? Is it a city that the characters just spend their downtime in before returning to the dungeon next session?
Is the city the entirety of the setting, or just a safe space to rest between adventures?

If it's the former, you can't really get away with making it "generic" - you need to give it some flavor to make it interesting. If it's the latter, you can probably get away with the roughest of descriptions and then wing it when the player's ask you about the details.
Maybe make a list of major characters, I guess, and major locations - churches, banks, inns and stores.

Answer these questions:
http://jrients.blogspot.co.nz/2011/04/twenty-quick-questions-for-your.html

>>54505656
Keep
Mercantile district
mage college
arts district
slums
Resource extraction
City guardhouse
general store
pub

yeah, I think that pretty much covers the fundamentals.

>>54504203
>What's your favorite blog that gets shilled on /osr/?
Melancholies and Mirth has posted some pretty useful stuff for me recently, so I'll say that.

>>54505928
>>54505934
What about religion? i was thinking in using the ones from greyhawk but dont know if there is a ntoehr method for generic religions

>>54506042
yeah I flubbed on that, add two different churches and a cult

>>54505974
Yeah, it's pretty new but I'm really liking that one so far

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>>54496419
Almost didn't make it.
>>54496432
Nah, it's all good. Fixed the descriptions a bit to match the map.

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>>54505656
I wouldn't say this way is best or generic, but it's hella fun:
http://www.lastgaspgrimoire.com/in-corpathium/
And the core idea is worth riffing on. For example: https://coinsandscrolls.blogspot.ca/2017/05/osr-building-city-first-section.html
>>54505928
The 20 questions here are vital.

This tool is also good: https://watabou.itch.io/medieval-fantasy-city-generator

>>54498378

One important thing to note about the original five-save system is that to some extent they emphasize the mechanical effect on your character as much as the actual source.

For example, the category of Instant Death *and* Poison is linked together because both effects result in instant death for your character (note this is the most forgiving save too).

Generally speaking the game mechanic categories are:
1. Effects that cause instant death: this is the most forgiving save, usually starting at around 14+, since there's generally no way to mitigate these easily.

2. Effects from a wand. These are harder to save against, even if the effect would be identical to the spell, because they represent a expenditure of a rarer and more expensive resource (this makes wands considerably stronger than spell scrolls, for example).

3. Paralysis or Petrification. This represents another medium difficulty save, because while it's very debilitating it's not permanent death for your character assuming your team-mates survive to help after.

4. Area damage. These are in the hard-to-save category because this effect damages your HP and consequently isn't as immediately fatal.

5. "Spell effects" a catch-all for anything not covered by others. While a difficult saving category by default, you'll note that individual spells may have their own positive or negative modifier depending on the strength of their effects.

tl;dr the 5-save system is grouped by their *mechanical effect on the character* as much as distinguishing the source - the exact same effect produced by a different source may be more valuable.

How come costs of armor in AD&D don't make any sense?

>>54507419
'cause they're the best defense other than a good offense

how does an adventurer guild works?
how are adventurers seen by normal peasents?

>>54507601
>how does an adventurer guild works?
There are no adventurer guilds. They're stupid and nonsensical.
>how are adventurers seen by normal peasents?
The same way regular real-world humans would see vagrants and thrill-seekers: a bunch of loonies, but harmless so long as they keep their trouble away from us.

>>54504268
What's wrong with the first one?

>>54507811
Nothing, just nice to get a new edition.

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>>54507601

>Adventurer Guild
Joining the adventurer guild can be done by basically anyone. It's a highly meritocratic organization though, so Wizards who are already established when they join the guild will be able to move up the ranks quickly, if there even are 'ranks'.

Stories of fame and fortune make tons of young and stupid people join, even if just to be a porter or lantern boy. Presumably after the first mission when they see their guild master getting fucking eaten by the floor that grew ragged teeth, they'll either quit or harden the fuck up.

>How are adventurers seen by normal peasants?

Rockstars. You don't really want them in your community most of the time, and you lock up your daughter/son/sheep when they come around, but everyone is a little jealous. When they haul a bunch of bloody treasure into town though they are everyone's friend though.

>>54507655
>There are no adventurer guilds. They're stupid and nonsensical.

Please explain why a highly dangerous, highly skill based, high reward job with a high turnover rate and need for constant apprentices/unpaid lantern boys wouldn't have a guild to go along with it? You seem a bit triggered. Does the thought of adventurer guilds make your muh grit and grime setting feel less legit and "realistic"? Get over yourself dude.

>>54507376
>2. Effects from a wand. These are harder to save against,
Other way around. Wand/Staff/Rod is always an easier Save than Spell.
There is not one exception to that anywhere on the Save tables.
>because they represent a expenditure of a rarer and more expensive resource
Because lv.14 MUs throw 14 spells/day, and lv.1 MUs w/ wands can zap dozens for one day.

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>>54507888
>Please explain why a highly dangerous, highly skill based, high reward job with a high turnover rate and need for constant apprentices/unpaid lantern boys wouldn't have a guild to go along with it?
In a feudal setting? Because adventures break the class/wealth/status, and challenge the state's monopoly on organized violence.

In setting where feudalism isn't important? They make sense, provided that "looting stuff" is a sufficiently common and widespread activity.

This all varies by setting, game tone, and game goals.

>>54507978
>lv.14 MUs throw 14 spells/day
*lv.10

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>>54507419
Because the costs of everything in AD&D don't make sense. Accept it as a game thing and move on, or find a better price list.

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>>54507888
>Please explain why a highly dangerous, highly skill based, high reward job with a high turnover rate and need for constant apprentices/unpaid lantern boys wouldn't have a guild to go along with it?
Because "adventurer" is not a profession.

The vast majority of people counting among such are either too inherently dysfunctional and selfish to belong to any guild, or already owe their allegiances to another faction - thieves in thieves' guild, clerics and paladins at some god's temple, fighters under some lord, wizards have a mage's guild, and so forth. Even the lantern boys and other camp followers can be hired from a bunch of other guilds.

The adventuring business, going out to explore ruins and old dungeons and wizard towers and shit, is also far too uncommon to warrant an entire guild: there's simply not enough ruins around, nor people mad enough to dare delve into one. There's some wicked shit down there: anything can happen, anything can be encountered, and laws of physics just go wonky.

Also, as >>54507985 said, the local lords and kings and whatnot will object. At least the mages keep to their towers and can occasionally serve in the court, while thieves mostly just steal things, but if you gather all these rowdy madmen under one roof, you'll soon have a psychopathic mercenary band in your hands - they might even try to organize a revolution! You just can't have that.

You'd need a very specific setting for it to work: some kind of a Points of Light where all forests are filled with goblins and there's like three ruins at a mile's radius of your home village, enough that a few swords and spells wielded by these adventuring lunatics wouldn't go amiss. And in such a setting, they wouldn't be called adventurers, but rather Judges: highly trained and organized specialists, licensed and tolerated only as long as they'll point their swords at the right direction.

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>>54508145
>but if you gather all these rowdy madmen under one roof, you'll soon have a psychopathic mercenary band in your hands - they might even try to organize a revolution!
And do you know what we call unscrupulous, mercenary, extortionist madmen with an independent army?
"Savior of the City" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Funerary_Monument_to_Sir_John_Hawkwood

>>54505091
It's run by Adam Koebel, who gets a lot of hate around here, but the Old School Roleplaying series on roll20's youtube channel is a straight run of Keep on the Borderlands using Moldvay D&D.

>>54504203
>What's your favorite blog that gets shilled on /osr/?
Out of the ones commonly shilled here I think Dungeon of Signs is the greatest. Planet Algol and Jeff Rients 4 life though.

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What game would you recommend for a party who wants to play in the world of Al-Qadim with as few books as possible?

>>54508297
Honestly I found the intro and retrospective of the Roll20 KoTB series more interesting than the actual series itself.

Many of the players ended up absent for a lot of the sessions; for what it's worth I think it demonstrates the weakness of KoTB as an introductory dungeoncrawl; there's very little in the way of alternate paths or reward for careful exploration.

>>54507601
>how does an adventurer guild work
An adventurer guild is just a thieves guild that's more respectable. The closest analog to one I have in my setting is basically just operated by a gang in a city that gives a certain degree of legal protection/responsibility for all adventurers while promising business to all the merchants of the city. If the treasure flow into the city is running low, they might put out notices or do a drive, and if there's a need for a certain type of adventurer, say a very skilled fighter, they might host a tournament or something to try and get people to come.

For the most part, many cities with strong enough governing bodies/states would probably ban a adventurer's guild since if you have one around and have the treasure become too important the adventurers will run everything, and then that means it's not too long before demihumans will get a little uppity and before you know it there's an elf quarter or a dwarf manufactory ruining an entire district.

>how are adventurers seen by normal peasants?
It's a two step process, step one is that they're probably laughed at as pathetic or suicidal, and the second step (optional) is suspicion and envy at their success.

What are some good OSR dungeons that work with most games?

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>>54508512
Just scan the last 2 or 3 threads, anon. People were posting tons of them.

>>54507601
For Gold & Glory + MC Al-Qadim Appendix.
That's two books.

>>54506604
>This tool is also good: https://watabou.itch.io/medieval-fantasy-city-generator
Did anyone ever mention how to save the results from that? It's a pretty shit tool if you can't put your generated town into your notes permanently tbqh.

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>>54508512
piano

did it 4 u skerp

>>54508545
That was meant for >>54508347

>>54508512
B 4
4

>>54508611
I don't mind others shilling for him, I just don't like when he does it. Which is 80% of the time.

>>54508545
what?

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>>54508584
>Did anyone ever mention how to save the results from that?
I don't recall, sorry. I screenshot the maps and chuck them in as a base layer in Photoshop. The guy spams it on reddit though so maybe there's a comment there?

>>54508611
Soon to be obsolete, motherfuckers! As in, 20 minutes.

>>54508545
what is your experience with for gold & glory?
do you use other classes?

>>54508545
Awesome. Why For Gold & Glory though?

>>54507601
Like gangs, cults, bandits, mercs and other cutthroats who can sometimes flash colours, bribe and muscle their way into each other's turf to take over their established spaces or get absorbed. Communication and travel between somewhat civilized centers is difficult so they aren't capable of being unified or cohesive over distance. If they get too big either or they become an overt threat to local lords they either collapse from internal conflict, get broken up by threatened churches, nobles, etc. or take over. Sometimes the take over is sanctioned, sometimes not, depends on the political climate, who's back yard they're in, who they offer to support, etc.

Peasants see them as well armed unknown variables. Sometimes with lots of cash to blow, cool stories and a willingness to kill local threats. Sometimes broke, staving, psychopathic monsters and otherwise becoming the local threats. If the peasants think there's a benefit to having this particular pack of adventurers around they'll be hospitable, if not they'll make themselves scarce and look for ways to drive them off.

>>54507888
You're not describing anything like a guild, man. The whole point of a guild is *protectionism*; "anyone can join! Fast advancement!" is literally the opposite of a guild's principles.

The point of Thieves' Guilds in the stories where they appear is a cynical illustration of how corrupt the city is; you can't even become a burglar without joining an established organization, doing your seven-year apprenticeship, bowing to the guild masters who get all the plum jobs and blah blah, so there's literally no get-rich-quick scheme, no corner unoccupied by the beggars, nothing. If you want to make a quick buck you have to operate unlicensed and get *everyone* up your ass.

>Please explain why a highly dangerous, highly skill based, high reward job with a high turnover rate and need for constant apprentices/unpaid lantern boys wouldn't have a guild to go along with it?
Those are literally the reasons *why* there would be no guild. Most likely the adventurers would just recruit like landsknechts or other mercenaries instead.

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So, after many edits, v 2.0 of Tomb of the Serpent Kings is finally done!

It's got art! It's got style! It's got the will and desire to be spammed in these threads for months!

Seriously though, people do like it, and it seems to work fairly well as a learning/tutorial dungeon. Thanks to /tg/ for encouraging me to write it and continue to improve it.

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>>54508706
>Soon
>20 minutes.
>Soon
...nah.

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>>54508971
...nah.

>>54508757
I said what I meant and I meant what I said.

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>>54508970
>1500948646533
>>54508971
>1500948653192

>files were uploaded 6.659 seconds apart
>>54508999
May you eat your favorite pet.

> and you have to credit me somewhere. Same goes for the art.
Are you telling me to say you did the art?

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>>54509048
>May you eat your favorite pet.
No thanks. they'd taste terrible.

Also, that was pretty fucking serendipitous.

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>>54509085
>Are you telling me to say you did the art?
Nah man, Scrap Princess did the art. Pretty clear. That particular sentence is only ambiguous if you didn't read the preceding bit.

>>54509027
>>54508678
>>54508716
>>54508673
>>54508757
HOW DO I KEEP MISQUOTING FUCK

Anyway, FG&G is a one-book 2e clone that will be compatible with all the Al-Qadim material. However, I have 0 experience with the system. And I'm only reccing FG&G because of the weird "as few books as possible" stipulation.

How long should a torch last?

>>54509184
As long as it must, but no more.

>>54509184
3,600 seconds and not a moment longer.

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>>54505974
>>54506407
Thank you for making my day. The next three posts are as follows. 1. Dungeon#01 a series of towers with an elevator which leads into the sky. 2. Sky/Clouds terrain encounters,bestiary, and rules. 3. A breaking down of one of the encounters (essentially a flying mini-dungeon). If those all sound like garbage let me know what to write instead.

>>54509528
Write me a check for a million dollars

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>>54509528
Yeah man, you're doing good stuff. I'm still looking over your worldbuilding posts, but I think the
>If a player is an X, then Y. If 3 or more players are X, then Z
idea is fucking /solid/ and probably should be in every setting guide in one form or another.

I'd like to see elevator dungeon. Have you read this post: http://falsemachine.blogspot.ca/2017/07/held-kinetic-energy-in-old-school.html ?
Could be worth integrating.

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>>54509528
Also, I've added you to my blog sidebar. Sorry about the delay. Hope that drives a few more eyeballs your way.

>>54509048
Google and iqdb give no useful results, source?

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>>54509614
Ah shit, its not an elevator dungeon at all. Its a dungeon that just happens to have two elevators. one of which extends to about a mile upwards. It's basically the album Warlord by Yung Lean as a dungeon. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cN0IuqgC3N8

Thanks man! I have no idea how to use google+ and at this point am afraid to ask so I appreciate it

>>54509048
Got it from 4chan.

While looking for a source, I found these threads:
http://archive.fo/UAtda
http://archive.fo/gzEJm

They aren't what you're lookign for, but they should be relevant to your interests.

Also, I assume you used 4chan's built in buttons for those searches.
Word of warning: you probably searched the thumbnails.
The thumbnails do occasionally get results that the full image doesn't, but the reverse is far more common.

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>>54509932
I'm going to be honest, the layout isn't really doing it for me. It's OK. I just can't put my finger on why it doesn't make me go "ooh, I want to run that".

It might be that the design feels very game-like, and not like a real construction? Hrm.

>>54510004
Meant for >>54509688

I've just now realized that my game has no max level.

What happens? How do you treat a level 60 Fighter or Rogue? Do they even need to roll to hit mortal beings? What about magic users? Do they get some lvl 11th spell slots or some shit?

Would there be any interest in a "retro-clone" of DCC's spell/magic mechanics done in such a way that they were entirely OGC? I know I'd like them for my projects but most of /osr/ is just homebrewers who would swipe it wholesale from DCC and I'm wondering if should go through the effort or not.

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>>54510315
This a concept map/sketch of the structure. I'm play testing the dungeon at a bar Sunday and the layout above is to give them measurable distances. Is this more "ooh, I wanna run that"?

>>54509932
>>54510315
It looks too linear in terms of how it would play, but too unconnected in terms of how it would have to be constructed in world?

>>54510315
Aside from the 2-4-10-20 loop the entire dungeon is just linear branches.

There are basically 3 long paths with a few 1/2 room dead ends that don't interconnect at all.

If you want ot get from one room to any other there is basically only 1 way to do it.

>>54510484
lol not him, but yeah. Scribbly shit does it for me more than blocks. Still looks too straight lines through the dungeon if I think about it, but I am a sucker for hand drawn.

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>>54510493
>It looks too linear in terms of how it would play, but too unconnected in terms of how it would have to be constructed in world?
Yeah, that's it.
With TotSK, there are a few paths you can trace - paths for priests, paths for sacrifices, paths for petitioners meeting the current king. The dungeon was built for a reason, and that reason wasn't "to be a dungeon."

Also, it's kind of spread out. You can compress it more without making it a maze. Don't be afraid to use some symmetrical sections.

Also, pick a real-world building or archetype and work around that: monastery, temple, catacombs, forge, power plant, cathedral, rotary supercollider...

>>54510381
Either they get only modestly better (+1 HP per level, saves improve very slowly). The idea being that, no matter how great they are, they're still mortals. Perhaps age eventually produces level drain, or permanent ability score loss.

Or you crack open the CMI in BECMI and start handing out the really crazy shit. Complicated quests to attain godhood and so forth.

I can't fathom why someone would still want to go dungeon delving at that level when they could be toppling kingdoms and slaying deities.

And yeah, in situations where there's absolutely no chance of failure (high level fighter hitting a goblin), I'd probably start just handwaving shit instead of rolling dice to determine the inevitable.

>>54510689
>And yeah, in situations where there's absolutely no chance of failure (high level fighter hitting a goblin), I'd probably start just handwaving shit instead of rolling dice to determine the inevitable.

That's actually the advice the Master set gave, Something along the line of not even describing the encounter, just giving a snapshot narration of the party moving past the carnage dipping with blood and gore of fallen enemies.

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Last chance to tell me if this is shit before I start printing it out for my game group.

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Occultesque guy, what're you working on atm? Haven't heard from you recently.

>>54511566
The death touch would barely do more damage than using 2 elemental bolts, on average, and costs one mana point more. And if someone got extremely lucky and got a +2 int modifier, spamming the 1-point elemental bolt becomes the best damage spell. The illusion spell seems overpriced

>>54512083
Oh, I would also switch the levitate spell and the bubble one in price. The spell for disappearing sounds like it'd be more of a nuisance than anything else. "lolno I want out, good luck guys" almost never makes for engaging gameplay, and that's from experience with certain types of character in M&M

>>54512186
Random thought: By making the "get the fuck out" spell so expensive, you're encouraging the MU player to squirrel away valuable resources to save his own hide (consciously or not). You also don't want it to be so cheap he spends most the session as a ghost. It could be reworked into something like a 3-point spell that can be ended at will and gives you some turns of guaranteed safety, but starts having some sort of drawback if you spend TOO MUCH time in there.

>>54512307
>but starts having some sort of drawback if you spend TOO MUCH time in there.
Obviously you get attacked by the ghosts of all the OTHER MUs who spent too much time in there. If you die you become one of them.

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>>54512083

The spells are meant to have diminishing returns to keep the first level ones competitive.

>>54512186
>>54512307

Doing the whole disappear thing is something I think is super cool that Wizards don't do that often. I see now that being able to disappear might make Wizards only care about themselves, but they're not really meant to be meat shields anyway right? I would think a craft one might use it to disappear and then reappear a round later behind an enemy for example, but that might seem like bending the rules too much.

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Ok /osr/ are there any really good
-heist dungeons (get in, get thing, get out)
-time pressure dungeons (whole thing explodes in 30 minutes)
-political dungeons (less "the orcs hate the kobolds but are friends with the necromancer" and more "infiltrate this ball/peace treaty")

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>>54512186
>>54512307
>>54512400

What's a good alternative for a 5 cost spell then? Sorry to pester, but I'm seriously getting my printer set up right now. I want to make sure nothing is too stupid for the first time I whip out this homebrew.

>>54513076
i think it's fine

>>54509184
Three turns if you want to be realistic, six if you want to be traditional.

>>54512800
>the entire dungeon explodes in three exploration turns
So... you want a corridor with a room at the end?

>>54504203

Shilled you say? Why Dungeon of Signs, of course.

>>54508970
If you don't mind me asking, where do you step from? I always assumed british, but am getting some mixed signals here and there.

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>>54507601
>how does an adventurer guild works?
It's run by an interdimensional wizard looking to twist all adventurers to his own ends. All kings and lords and other leaders hate him, but can't do shit about him.

It's the only way I've seen adventuring guilds make any sense.

>how are adventurers seen by normal peasents?
Weird, unpredictable, occasionally beneficial, always feared. If the peasants don't have enough of a police force to try and contain these assholes in case of shit going down, they'll usually just drive them off.

>>54504268
August can't come fast enough. Might be the first game I actually drop real money on.

Are there rules on eating and drinking in B/X? I can't find them.

I was thinking just -1 to hit and damage for each day without food or water, dead after three days (for water) or three weeks (for food).

I had my players discover, below The City, people that look disturbingly like themselves encased in large green crystal. The locals know it's holding back some evil, like a barrier. They know the crystals seem to siphon magic from enchanted objects.

I can't figure out where to go from here. Help a guy out with a creativity block.

>>54512800
>heist dungeons (get in, get thing, get out)
LITERALLY Plundering Poppof from Dungeon.

>>54516647
The crystalized PCs are from the future. They went to the past to stop a spellplague and put themselves in the crystals in order to do it. If it is cracked, the PCs are saved but the plague will return. If the crystal is left alone, then the PCs will inevitably be encased in it at some point of their journey.

>>54516647
>>54516789
They're versions of the PC from the Reversed Morality Universe. The crystal was created as metaphysical cork to be placed in the interversal aperture but they were double-crossed and so they were trapped.

>>54516647
Well, I can see some tweaks to the suggestions that have already been given.
>>54516789 could just have them be the PCs from a Bad Future that is now prevented - freeing the alt-PCs (higher level, of course, with weird post-apocalyptic nonmagical gizmos) will also begin the countdown for Lavos awakening or whatever but this time you have forewarning and twice the PCs to fight it off.

>>54516886 Plot twist: the PCs in the crystal ARE the evil that's being held back, since they're evil Bizarro version of the PCs. Syphoning from enchanted objects is either to prevent the Bizarro PCs from using their magical gear if they should escape, or else the crystal just uses any nearby magic it can get its greedy hands on to keep the barrier up.

Alternatively, syphoning magic is actively weakening the barrier and is a flaw introduced either by the Bizarro PCs or whatever evil they're sealing away.


Weird-ass alternative theory: the crystal PCs are just a lookalike party of fanboys who got in WAY over their head.
Or there's a nefarious Wizard somewhere manufacturing duplicates of people - a not-insignificant portion of The City might already be duplicates who have replaced their originals and hold loyalty to the Clone King!

Although speaking of the Clone spell, that's another thing that could go hilariously wrong if the party's been using it a bunch.

I dunno, man, there's a lot of ways you could go with "the party discovers another party that looks just like them."

>>54515797
That would be really slow (first level characters could last nine days without water!)

I'd suggest d6 damage/day without water after two days.
Same for food after 20 days or something like that (less if they're doing strenuous activity). Can't be healed with magic.

>>54515797
>dead after three days (for water)
>>54517619
>(first level characters could last nine days without water!)

What did they mean by this?

>>54510851
Well that's just a magical tea party storygame then, isn't it? [/franktrollman]

>>54517713
Oh, sorry, I misread that as -1HP *after* three days without water.

Why is tenfootpole so popular? Is it just that he puts out a lot of reviews?

>>54518365
He's the only one that can stomach even reading, let alone reviewing, Dungeon magazines. He also has the sort of a taste that I agree with, usually liking things I like and disliking what I do.

>>54508297
Thanks for the recommendation, I appreciate it. I actually own Dungeon World but never looked up the authors before this. I have never wanted immediately to hit someone so badly. I watched (struggled, really) through 20 minutes of the first episode before dipping out to survive.

I didn't realize I was so judgemental until now, but that dude's face and behavior made me mad.

>>54518365
He has actual general principles for criticism rather than "it looks fun!" or being real vague about his reasoning like a lot of reviewers. Basically, his style is more like a critic than a reviewer if that makes sense.

>>54507878
Will it be a 2e clone?

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What do you guys think of the map I've been working on?

>>54519071
looks cute

>>54519071
Is this an ancient library?

What is a good read for laws in medieval societies?

also, mystara or greyhawk?

>>54519116
Yah. It's a 3 level structure with the 3rd level being the top of the central tower that supports a dome for the building. The idea is that there's a giant concrete containment cube around it. That's why the entry is a secret tunnel through the floor that the players find.

>>54519140
Depends if you want goofy fantasy or dark fantasy.

>>54504203
I love Occultesque, but Coins & Scrolls and Melancholies & Mirth are also great.

Why is the S&W Complete Rule Book free?

>>54519162
Well a little of both, i let one player be a bear with a hat

>>54519140
>>54519162
Also, of course, "which Mystara are you talking about?"

There's, like, at least three distinct versions of that setting. Before the Gazetteers has a decidedly different feeling to the Gazetteer version, and the post-Wrath of the Immortals 2E version is a weird aborted reboot.

Like, just look at how the early Known World stuff assumes that there's a lot of untamed wilderness all over the place, and the later Gazetteer stuff not only fills that wilderness with settlements but has to invent a separate untamed wilderness north of the existing map to be able to actually fit in player domains.

>>54519140
Which Mystara
Which Greyhawk

>>54519149
Pretty good. Easy to read, easy to look at, parts of it immediately make me want to know more (what is the story fire? Why is there a barricade there, who built it, to defend against what? Why is there a professor in this ruined building?) All the stuff a dungeon map should be.

>>54519307
>>54519251
I am using For gold & glory(2e)

>scrap princess did art for ToTSK
Did we meme this into reality?

>>54519442
It's probably more the fact that shilling actually works.

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>>54510315
>>54510493
>>54510493
>>54510502
>>54510531
>>54510636
Alright, here's an attempt to give a 3d breakdown of the dungeon looping. Does this seem less linear?

>>54519307
>>54519251
which one do you reccomends?

>>54519442
It's too vanilla for Scrap Princess.

>>54519702
For Mystara (for The Known World, really), I'd recommend the early fuzzy setting you get from the X1 map and early modules. Maybe with the starting town from Mentzer Expert, if you really need it.
You get way more space to play in without the later confining Gazetteers and metaplot.

Basically, I think "Mystara" is at its best when it's not only not "Mystara" (that goes without saying, really) but also hardly a setting at all. It's a tabula rasa to write your exploits onto, not a script to follow slavishly.

This also lets you save places that got shafted by later products, like the Atruaghin or Ierendi or Broken Lands. The Isle of Dread is actually isolated, rather than being a stone's throw from Jurassic South America.

Failing that, GAZ1 Karameikos is alright. If you really want the wacky magical stuff you'll need to stretch further into other products, but honestly most of it isn't that great.


Seriously, though, you could play a good Known World campaign with just B/X, B2, X1, and imagination.

>>54504203

I want to dip my toes into this.
Do the roll 3d6 in order thing.
My group and I are bad at heavy/archaic systems.
Is there anything /osr/ can recommend for a beginner?

>>54520169
Moldvay's B/X is pretty good to start with.

>>54520169
If the writing on moldvay b/x is a little hard to follow, you can always check out lotfp or labyrinth lord. For starter modules, The Lost City, KotB and Village of Hommlet are usually recommended. A guy on /tg/ made a decent learning module, Tomb of the Serpent Kings. It's even posted in this thread right now if you want to check it out.

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>>54519702
>which one do you reccomends?
not them, but for Greyhawk I recommend going away from the standard parts of the setting and going with the Sundered Empire/God War region of the setting that was introduced in the WOTC version of Chainmail

>>54520169
>>54520183
Do note that you don't need to actually start with the whole B/X rigmarole - Moldvay Basic and something like B2 Keep on the Borderlands should be enough to get you started.

Or maybe B1 In Search of the Unknown, if you want the DM's side to be more educative as well - it's the one where you need to stock the dungeon yourself, and has a rather more complicated map than B2's so is more of a challenge to the mappers.

So Moldvay Basic and either of those two, I guess.

what is a good encounter table for 2e?

>>54520729
I've heard that the Monstrous Compendium has some, but don't know of the quality.

If nothing else, making your own is dead-easy in that edition:

>Roll 1d12+1d8
>2 - Very Rare
>3 - Very Rare
>4 - Very Rare or Rare
>5 - Rare
>6 - Rare
>7 - Uncommon*
>8 - Uncommon*
>9 - Common**
>10- Common**
>11- Common**
>12- Common**
>13- Common**
>14- Uncommon*
>15- Uncommon*
>16- Rare
>17- Rare
>18- Very Rare or Rare
>19- Very Rare
>20- Very Rare
>*Alternatively: choice of two very rare creatures
>**Alternatively: choice of two rare creatures

What does /osr/ recommend for ruleslite OSRs?

>>54521391
Just fuckin OD&D dude

>>54521391
OSRIC

>>54521391
Dungeon Crawl Classics

>>54521571

>488 pages
>Rules lite

>>54521391
Microlite20

>>54521391
The two reference pages in B2 and common sense.

About a year ago someone here made a really good B/X DM screen using the original fonts and tables.

I think it went through a few iterations, does anyone have the final version?

>>54521391
Whitehack and Microlite 74 would be my two primary choices in that regard

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So I've finally finished filling out the terrain for my hexcrawl after breifly filling out five of the civilized greater hexes; it leaves me with a greater question. I got settlements, cities, fortresses and strange going ons down to pat but I'm not sure how to go about doing the dungeons for monster lairs and ruins. I've been using donjon to make to make the maps and such, but I'm worried that when comes down to it, that won't be good enough. So I got to thinking how fill them with more interesting challenges and locales; but then I remember how bloody difficult that is with just one of my larger more detailed dungeon projects! And I got bunch these little bastards dotted about, hidden within lands already. So my question is this/osr/, what do I do to increase my players enjoyment of the dungeons while keeping me from losing my sanity via dungeon workload?

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>>54522255
Why not just use existing products instead of making more work for yourself?

Throw in some One Page Dungeons. The guy who made The Lantern of Wyv and a few others made this hex map with where all his dungeons could go.

Or take a look at smaller products, like Shadowbrook Manor or Tomb of the Iron God.

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Got my supplement material, paper and pencils, dice, and printed out my mana point system. Tomorrow I'm meeting with my friends and going to try and run a simple game even though there all used to Pathfinder. Wish me luck!

>>54522555
Did you give the fighting-man any toys?

>>54522906

What should I give him? Some blood chips or something?

>>54522929
Just curious if you had home brewed the other classes as well

What are you using for thieves?

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>>54522960

Yes. Thieves = Rogues.

What other things you can find in a inn that is in middle of the wilderness or a road?

>>54523360
Bandits that took over.

>>54523360
edit -talking about buildings

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>>54521700

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>>54523360
>>54523496
???

>>54523960
You know like you are on the road with your party and you find an inn and other buildings but it isnt a town

>>54524004
If there's more than an inn, it's probably at the very least a hamlet.

>>54524026
whats the logic behind the inn? do they have security for the random monsters that can appear?

>>54524113
If it's a long road in a kingdom or an empire that at least tries to maintain some level of civilization and control, it'll probably have a fortified coaching inn or two on the road.

>>54519251

I'd argue 4 Mystaras, but you are very correct.

1981 (Moldvay/Cook BX Rules + X1) - Wild untamed frontier with small amounts of civilization scattered here and there. The map from the Expert rules + the general descriptions from X1. Nothing else. Very raw and exciting.

1983 (Menzter BECMI) - Adds Menzter's new flourishes including the wonderful town of Threshold. More like 1981, but with more sttucture.

1987 (Gazetters) - All the work is done for you, the world is more civilized and the largest towns are populations of 50,000. A good world to adventure in, but not like 1981 or 1983.

mid 90's - 2e era. Best forgotten. Sorry if you like this era.

Any good adventures for higher level (7+) parties?

>>54524113
Presumably they just serve them like any other customer.

That seems like the easiest way for a weird nonsensical middle-of-nowhere inn to survive, if only because that way they can actually get customers.

Seriously, an inn in Bumfuck, Karameikos is probably more at risk of bankruptcy than monster attacks. The latter can be handwaved away with something like "oh, the barkeep is one of those retired adventurers that the DM likes to use to beat off thieving PCs", but where the hell are they supposed to get income from if they're so isolated?

If they can't get sufficient income from caravans, tourists and locals, the only logical answer is that it's from unorthodox sources.

Orcs and ogres need to get a drink too, occasionally. Why else would they carry those coins with them?

>>54524251
X1 The Isle of Dread is a good one.

>>54519995
>Seriously, though, you could play a good Known World campaign with just B/X, B2, X1, and imagination.

This.

>>54524279
>X1 The Isle of Dread is a good one.
Anyone have all the maps for this/know where to find them? One I downloaded from the trove didn't have them.

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>>54513856
>So... you want a corridor with a room at the end?
Or everyone runs like mad and you do the whole thing in combat rounds?

The key to that is "exploration". This isn't exploring. It's a smash-and-grab.
>>54514162
The more interesting unusual parts of Canada.
>>54516782
And it's a good 'un too!
>>54518365
It's genuinely good, thoughtful advice and criticism, and not just "meh, 5/7 perfect score." You might not agree with what he posts but it's at least defensible.
>>54519511
That looks a bit better! I think I'd like to see the room maps though.

>>54519442
I'm going to take /some/ credit for this, and the fact that Scrap liked the dungeon when I first posted it, but yes, a sprinkling of /tg/ meme magic helped me push things along.
>>54519963
>It's too vanilla for Scrap Princess.
I... uh... wut?

>>54522437
I guess it would have felt... Disengenous? Lazy? I'm not sure... I guess I got too caught up in the thought of doing some thing all by myself (for the most part). Pride before the fall and all that. Thanks man I'll look into it.

>>54524279
>Orcs and ogres need to get a drink too, occasionally. Why else would they carry those coins with them?
Could be neat. I'm very much in favour of making the less weird monsters (goblins, ogres, maybe even giants and stuff) basically people. Sure, they're dangerous people but they do things like get drunk, have families, all that jazz. I prefer to keep the really weird-ass flavour for stuff like the undead or the really weird monsters like mind flayers and dopplegangers.
Then again, when I run medieval fantasy, orcs, goblins and ogres are all available as PCs, so my assumptions are probably not typical.

>>54524251

C1 The Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan
I1 Dwellers of the Forbidden City
X1 The Isle of Dread
X2 Castle Amber
X4 Master of the Desert Nomads (which leads to X5 and then X10)

How do you pronounce Karameikos?

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>>54524502
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-n1vGeVIXo

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>>54519071
>>54519149
I like it. It's going to be... interesting to see how your players map it though. Make sure you practice describing the rooms and dimensions.

>>54524444
Uh, your image seems to have vanished.

>>54521391
ACKS, the answer is always ACKS

>>54524550

DEFENsiBLE, neck ARdoR PARAkeeT
Is it so hard?

>>54521391
>>54521403
Seconding OD&D, can't get much lighter than just the LBBs and homebrewing for it is a gas.

How do you explain how and why monsters live in dungeons?

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>>54526321

>>54526321
>How do you explain how and why monsters live in dungeons?
the Dungeon is alive and is making the monsters;

http://gameswithothers.blogspot.com/2013/06/other-frontiers-dungeons-megadungeons.html

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>>54526414

Reading this is just so cool, so creative. But for some reason I can't accept it, I want to use it and think it's cool, but I can't make myself enjoy it.

Why? Am I autistic or something?

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>>54527091
It's called "not liking an idea." You could keep picking at it, but is there any benefit?

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>>54519963
>It's too vanilla for Scrap Princess.
So I'm still waiting on any kind of explanation for this comment...

Is there a crime list and penalties?

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>>54527403
Yes: https://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/source/salic-law.html

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>>54521391
LotFP or BFRPG. Or this.

What's a good name for the Elf class if it's reskinned as a human class, besides Spellsword or Battlemage?

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>>54528119
Aristocrat
Duelist
Medicine Seller

>>54527918
I mostly like it, but why do mages get a saving throw bonus against "physical shit" same as warriors? Looks like a mistake.

>>54528374
Definitely a mistake. Should say "magical shit".

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>>54528374
Looks like the author fixed it and I had a prior version.

>>54528450
Kool

>>54527377
Skerples wrote the most generic things he could manage, then asked a weird artist for pictures of it.

To quote Lord Dunsany ,
>I found Mr Sime one day, in his strange house at Worplesdon, complaining that editors did not offer him very suitable subjects for illustration;
>so I said: "Why not do any pictures you like, and I will write stories explaining them, which may add a little to their mystery?"

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>>54529220
You know, that's a fair point. I did sneak a little weirdness in (sticky fungus goblins, Xiximanter, the skeleton jellies), but it's all "classic" weirdness. Ah well. At least it looks decent now.

The next dungeon I'm writing (or at least one of them) is a diplomacy/heist where the PCs kidnap the Pope and loot his stuff on the way out, so it should be a little more weird.

In other news, someone just volunteered to translate TotSK into French, so soon it will be pretentious useless bullshit in /two/ languages.

And if you want some weird stuff in text form: http://cuticlechewerswellpissers.blogspot.ca/

>>54508399
True that. I'm only on the fifth week or so, but I'm beginning to see what you mean.

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>>54529301
Look for someone to translate it into Esperanto.
Only hobbyists and the Aggressors speak it.

>>54518882
Yeah. I don't mind him too much, but maybe it's because I have a higher tolerance for grating personalities from working in customer service. I find Hillary to be much more annoying anyway.

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>>54529440
Faru g^in vi mem, vi gaja viro.

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>>54529440
Deseret > Esperanto

>>54529553
Enochian > Deseret

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>>54529607
The Queen's English > Enochian and all other heathen jibber-jabber

>>54529440
>>54529537
What alignment language is this?

>>54504268
how much is it going to cost?

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>>54530762
Chaotic Countercultuarlist

Chigger Ghouls- Better than Rot Grubs

Some ghouls dig through the earth for old corpses, reshaping the graveyards with ghoul tunnels. Chigger Ghouls are parasites though. They don't bite you or claw you when you meet them alone, they lick you and caress you. Their touch makes you go stiff and limp, unable to move or cry, and then they shrink down to tiny little ghoul-people, smaller than your little fingernail and they dig through you, through the tunnels of your veins, and they nibble on your liver and your brain until you're basically dead yourself, and they make sure nobody is coming to save you by peering out from holes in your skin that their little ghoul heads peep out of, and then they leave just before you really are dead, and you get to thinking that all you need to do to get back what you're missing is eat somebody. Maybe not all of them, just a few little bites, from choice sections, to replace what you've lost. And you've lost so much, it's like you've shrunken and just keep getting smaller, like you're so hungry you've become hollow and you're falling into yourself.

Chigger Ghouls can grow back to full size, worming their way out of their host and growing to the size of a baby the first turn, a goblin the second turn, and finally reaching their full size- that of a petite teenage girl with spade-claw-hands and prognathous teeth-jaws. The oldest ghoul keeps growing though, and it inspires the others to stay and fight and defend their person-nest. She grows as tall as the tall man who came to save, you, then taller than him, then as tall as a tree, and that's Big Sister, who remembers the days of giants when the Chigger Ghouls grew BIG to burrow inside giants oh yes indeed.

Now I just need to find a drawfag

>>54529301

You really should be trying to introduce yourself to Raggi at this point. Seriously.

What's the difference between b/x and swords and wizardry? Or any of these clones for that matter?

>>54532229
Old School Renaissance Handbook explains the differences well enough.

>>54529301
I'd advise you to make a new post on the blog about the 2.0 pdf
Feel like it'd get more exposure if people actually get a note saying it's up now.

How do you guys manage encounters?

DM:Okay now you guys are walking in the forest
Players:yay!
DM rolls for random encounter *gasp* a 1!
Rolls in the encounter table,4 orcs!
Rolls distance and see if players can see them
DM: You see some orcs 40 feet ahead, roll for initiative!
Players:Fuuuuck!

>>54532694
Pretty much the same as you up until rolling distance. At that point I instead just place them where it's the most appropriate, but never directly within sight.

Good modules fitting with Astonishing Swordsmen and Sorcerers of Hyperborea? Looking for some higher level ones in particular.

>>54532229
Well, Swords and Wizardry is a retro clone of 0ed for starters.

>>54530847
60$ Hardback or 19$ PDF

I'm guessing it's gonna be a pretty thick book, 500+ pages at least.

>>54533574
Nothing I've seen has suggested to me that it wouldn't be worth it.

>>54532694
That but the orcs are doing something, I use this table for inspiration:

http://goblinpunch.blogspot.com/2013/05/wtf-are-those-goblins-doing.html

Also after initiative is (usually) Monster Reactions. Those orcs might be minding their own business and it's the party who attacks first.

>>54533929
This is the best thing ever put up on that blog.

>>54524412
Really, it's just a bit of extrapolation from their early depiction. Not their appearance in The Lord of the Rings (although they're plenty human in Return of the King, really, albeit vile), but in how they're portrayed in OD&D and Monster Manual 1.

Consider the Orc Lair, if you will. 75% of them are underground Moria-esque places - OD&D even gives them Balrogs and Dragons as leaders in that case. The other 25%, though, are "an above ground village".

The average roll of 165 orcs also gets you
>1 chief
>17.5 bodyguards
>1 subchief
>10.5 guards
>6 leaders (of 30 orcs)
>18 assistants
>109.5 female orcs
>219 youths

So that's 547.5 orcs living in that village. What's the village like?

>If the lair is above ground it will be a rude village of wooden huts protected by a ditch, rampart, and log palisade. The village will have from 1-4 watch towers and a single gate. There will be 1 catapult and 1 ballista for each 100 male orcs (round to the nearest hundred).

And they're Lawful Evil. They do more, too:
>If the orcs are not in their lair there is a 20% chance they will be escorting a train of 1-6 carts and 10-60 slave bearers bringing supplies and loot to their chief or to a stronger orc tribe. The carts will hold goods worth from 10 to 1,000 gold pieces, and each slave will bear goods worth from 5 to 30 gold pieces. If such a train is indicated, double the number of leaders and assistants, add 10 normal orcs for each cart in the train, and a subchief with 5-30 guards will always be in charge.

And then you have the whole deal with orcs being in huge tribes.
>If orcs from one of these tribes are encountered in an area, it is likely that all other orcs nearby will also be from this tribe.

The average human settlement in the DMG has 416 people, for reference. Villages, towns and cities have more people, up to 60,000, but they're exceedingly rare.

Note that few other humanoids gets this much detail! They've very much just another hostile culture.

>>54534439
>17.5 bodyguards
>109.5 female orcs
So one orc is half female, half bodyguard? Or just a female bodyguard?

>>54534526
There's 17 or 18 bodyguards on average and 10 or 11 guards and 109 or 110 females and so so - I just kept the decimals in to make it more immediately apparent that these are just the average roll.

The actual average amount of orcs gets a bit messier since subchiefs are only with 150+ orcs and you get one leader per 30 orcs.

And then you get the whole thing with there being 50% as many females as males (that's a weirdly skewed demographic, by the way), and as many young as there are males.

And then subterrainean orcs get some ogres sometimes, and if you go back to the OD&D tables instead then you skip the young and women and instead get to roll for whether or not they have a Saruman leading them.

>>54534626
You missed the joke.

>>54534439
>Consider the Orc Lair, if you will. 75% of them are underground Moria-esque places - OD&D even gives them Balrogs and Dragons as leaders in that case. The other 25%, though, are "an above ground village".
In OD&D it's even 1/3 aboveground villages. I fucking love the OD&D Orc rules, the possibility of accidentally rolling up a mini-Isengard or similar.

>>54536415
AD&D made a lot of stuff like that more mundane, for lack of a better word, and it's a crying shame.

In OD&D, an orc cave has...
>Balrog, 25%/100 orcs
>Dragon, 10%/100 orcs
>1d6 ogres, 10%/50 orcs
>1d4 trolls, 10%/100 orcs
In AD&D, they get
>1d4+1 ogres, 50%
What the fuck?
And, of course, they completely cut the bit about them having a chance of having 7th-9th-level Fighting-Men or Wizards as a leader in the villages.
Seriously, the description for this table is
>Orcs found in a cave will possibly have strong leader/protector types, as will those in villages
Why would you cut out such a cool thing?

Or hey, how about how in AD&D those random name-level NPCs have castles with a small army in them, but OD&D ALSO gives them class-specific retainers like (for example) 1d4 Giants for Lords, 1d4 Balrogs for Wizards, 1d10 Ents for Patriarchs, and 1d6 Vampires for Evil High Priests?
That's flavorful as shit, but rather than expanding it for the extra classes added since the LBBs they just trashed that entire thing.

In OD&D you can run into a cave of Orcs guarded by a Balrog, or a Wizard's castle with dragons circling the keep.
In AD&D, the most exciting thing is that Illusionists will disguise their castle as being a hill or some shit. Oh, and Orc caves sometimes have ogres in them as well.

Frankly, I find the "AD&D Implied Setting" to be a lot less interesting than the OD&D one.

>>54537240
>and it's a crying shame.
I don't know. Personally I appreciate toning it down a bit. Having balrogs all over the place would be just ridiculous and also cheapen the impact of one showing up.

>>54537240
>they
>they
Is there a reason why you're so hesitant to say "Gygax"?

>>54537715
>In AD&D, Gygax gets 1d4+1 ogres, 50%

OD&D guys, are there rules in the LBBs (or in a supplement, for that matter) about how much light torches and lanterns shed and how long they last -- and if so, what volume/page? Or should I just crib the rules from Moldvay?

>>54537734
>yfw Gygax regularly ran AD&D with 2-5 people, and they only showed up to the sessions 50% of the time

>>54537715
Because to be honest I'm somewhat doubtful about how much Gygax actually did himself and how much he outsourced to others and just claimed as his own.

>>54537785
Nope! It's conspicuously missing. Or duration is, at least - you can kind of infer that the distance.
>U&WA p.9
>Sighting Monsters: Players will see monsters at 20 - 80 feet (roll a pair of four-sided dice to determine the distance) unless they are surprised by the monster.
Taking that at face value, you now have the distance for torchlight.

Here's what B/X and AD&D did so you can compare.
>B/X has torches and lantern light a 30' radius. Torches burn 6 turns, flasks of oil 24 turns.
>AD&D has torches light a 40' radius and last 6 turns, lanterns a 30' radius/24 turns, bullseye lanterns 80' (1" wide)/24 turns, magic weapons last forever but daggers light 10', short swords 15', long swords 20'.

Given that both agree on an hour for torches and four for lanterns, I'd go with that.

hey lads, what would you say are the key principles of OSR dungeon design? Considering dungeons are what really defines OSR in the first place as well

My thinking:

-every dungeon has a trap
-a variety of often illogically close enemy placement
-quirky, often bizarre npc encounters
-randomization plays a promnent role
-gynax-style naturalism and ecology
-Corridors!
-pulp setting

>>54538107
Here's what comes to mind:

>Big labyrinthine dungeons with many paths to take and often vague or entirely nonexistent destinations.
>Random encounters.
>Limited resources: torches, food, hit points, spells, all run out.
>Death is always one bad decision or failed save away.
>Be quick, be clever, parley.
>Gold and treasure is more important than body count.
>You're not a hero, just a greedy thief.

>>54538107
The only one of those that I'd call a key principle would maaaybe by the corridors. Perhaps the "every dungeon has a trap" thing, depending on the definition of "trap".

To wit:

>-every dungeon has a trap
Depends on what a "trap" is. Standard traps? Eh, maybe. Expand it to stuff like "Breeyark!", though, and you get closer to the truth. Requiring caution is common, yes.
>-a variety of often illogically close enemy placement
If your dungeon makes no sense, you'll get pushback against that unless it's explicitly meant to be that way. And even then.
>-quirky, often bizarre npc encounters
That's not as much a cornerstone of dungeon design as it is just, well, RPG design in general. You want NPCs to be memorable. The "bizarre" part a bit less so, I guess, but bizarre quirks can often serve a purpose.
>-randomization plays a promnent role
In terms of tables, I guess, but for actual dungeon design I'd argue against this. It's difficult to get a coherent dungeon with randomization. For inspiration, sure, but if you're actually designing a dungeon you need to think it through a bit more.
>-gynax-style naturalism and ecology
There's been some serious pushback against this, with the whole "variety of illogical enemy placements" thing being a direct example.
Still, though, there's plenty out there that like that stuff as well. And some that don't care.
The big problem is that, well, it can be pretty mundane and boring at times.
>-Corridors!
A given, really, unless you want a dungeon to consist entirely of rooms. This should probably go without saying. If nothing else, they give you room to breath or time to turn back before it's too late.
>-pulp setting
Pulp's fun and all, but OSR is broader than that. From LotFP's stabs at horror to the more alt-genre stuff like Stars Without Numbers.
This depends on how pulpy you're talking, though. Not a lot goes to full Lost City/Isle of Dread/Castle Amber levels, where it's just straight-up ripped from pulp novels.

Have you done a story based campaign?

>>54504203
http://riseupcomus.blogspot.com/ is pretty good, but the guy seems to have stopped updating.

>>54507419
Cause the prices reflect those in a gold rush boom town next to a dungeon pouring thousands of gold into the local economy with an unnatural emphasis on weapons and armor. Economy's fucked up yo.

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I always found specialist wizards in 2e to be rather underwhelming, with drawbacks that tend to outweigh the benefits, and some schools being vastly more useful than others. It was also the edition where the number of spells really started to bloat and expand, resulting in both the magic-users starting to grow overpowered and in their players becoming fatigued with so many bloody options.

So here's what I was thinking:
1) Ditch the generalist wizard.
2) Allow multiclassing as a specialist.
3) Give each specialist wizard their own spell lists, like what 1e illusionists had, each fairly sparse and small with very little overlap.

Could it even be worth the trouble?

>>54539747
IMHO specialist wizards are a poor attempt at merging the Illusionist into the main class, so sure why not.

Really, though, what you're doing is just splitting the wizard into multiple classes with their own spell lists. I'd recommend against trying to make one for every single school, and instead just focusing on the ones that are interesting. Illusionists have plenty of inspiration from pulp and whatnot, but, well, some of them are less interesting or less useful.

Consider an Oracle class, pretty much a divination specialist. It's probably pretty useful, but would be a pain to DM for. I'd skip the divination specialist, really.

Also, Necromancers kind of step on the toes of Priests a bit? Maybe?

The Illusionist can just get back its 1E list, really. Maybe you can also fold in the enchanting stuff.

I dunno about the rest. Some are probably fine (Invocation is basically Tim the Enchanter), some maybe a bit rougher (transmuters, perhaps).

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>>54540310
>Also, Necromancers kind of step on the toes of Priests a bit? Maybe?
Necromancers are quite possibly the single most iconic specialist wizard. You've got to have them around.

>>54539747
I say go largely with what >>54539747 said: start with the ones you really like, maybe those your players might want to play as. Then you can maybe work with the rest at your leisure, if you've got the free time.

Ultimately, if you have a lot of players who'd like to do different kind of wizards, it might be worth your while.

What're you going to do about the ability score requirements, though? If you ditch the generalist mage, you've got all these 15s and 16s your players need to roll before they can fling spells. Could work if you wanted to make wizards feel more rare and special, but I dunno.

Is Tower of the Scarlet Wizard in the trove? I'm unable to find it.

>>54526321
Spontaneous generation used to be a leading scientific theory for how things came to be.

Monsters is what spontaneously generates when you have a cave full of gold.

>>54541052
Old school science is the fucking best

Recipe for Bees
1. Kill a bull during the first thaw of winter.
2. Build a shed.
3. Place the dead bull on branches and herbs inside the shed.
4. Wait for summer. The decaying body of the bull will produce bees.

(Roman poet, around 20 A.D.)

What osr haves the best rules/design?

>>54541441
Whatever is the most fun for you.

>>54541547
Was talking more about layout and clarity, and less clunky mechanics

>>54541582
In that case, I'd say it's probably Lamentations of the Personal Preference

Do you guys think classes are necessary for a better experience?

would not having classes change things?

>>54541603
Well, it would obviously change some things. Chargen's a lot simpler unless you replace it with something else, for instance, and you no longer need to worry about those pesky class restrictions on items.

It really depends on how you do it, I guess.

By personal preference is just to make everyone Fighters, allow anyone to use scrolls and wands and whatnot, and make potions of healing and whatnot somewhat more common on the lists. Or, alternatively, you give everyone a handful of dice to heal themselves with.

A "cleric" is just a guy who managed to hoard healing potions - a "wizard" is just a guy with magic spell items.

>>54541693
Make everyone adventurers

>>54538107
>-a variety of often illogically close enemy placement
Gotta object to this one really, the OD&D and Basic books are always banging on about the importance of having comparatively many empty rooms, and the early random dungeon generators also produce that type of outcome.

Dense enemy placement I suspect comes from a place of wanting to avoid dead weight in module writers (or in some cases some sort of outside concern, like how in Blue Medusa, False Patrick had to adapt to a preexisting picture with a creature in every room). I guess it's up for discussion whether that's good module design, but in any case I don't want to say that "illogical density" is a key principle or staple of OSR dungeons as it's heavily advised *against*.

>>54541582
Any B/X retroclone is good in those regards, and that encapsulates about half of what these threads talk about.

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>>54531694
>You really should be trying to introduce yourself to Raggi at this point.
I really don't like a lot of the "LotFP style" humor, gore, "shock value for shock value's sake" etc. Maybe it's supposed to be transgressive. It just feels edgy and ungamable most of the time. Plus, Zak is following me now, so that's weird.
>>54532528
Good point!
https://coinsandscrolls.blogspot.ca/2017/07/osr-tomb-of-serpent-kings-20.html

>>54532694
c>>54527277

>>54534043
>>54533929
That table is a goddamn masterpiece. Print it and keep it handy.

>>54541441
>“The Monks of Cool, whose tiny and exclusive monastery is hidden in a really cool and laid-back valley in the lower Ramtops, have a passing-out test for a novice. He is taken into a room full of all types of clothing and asked: Yo, my son, which of these is the most stylish thing to wear? And the correct answer is: Hey, whatever I select.”

Does anyone havethe pdf for Advanced World of Dungeons? I can't download it from the site for some reason.

>>54531694
>>54543215
Honestly I feel if you want to get something published Autarch (ACKS) would be a more natural fit.

>>54541441
>>54541582
I'd say the original B/X, particularly the B half (Moldvay).

I've gushed about this in these threads before, but the book does NOT feel 35 years old. It's clearly written and sensibly structured with a nice, clean layout. You can read through the whole thing cover to cover without feeling bored or getting too bogged down in game terms. The Gygax books are too flowery and pretentious.

Newer editions are very professional but they feel too rigid with game mechanics: you'd never get "unless a successful Save vs. Spells is made" OR "a save can halve this damage", it's always "XdY damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one" because that's the Magic: The Gathering style syntax they need to adhere to.

Meanwhile, a lot of indie books don't feel professional enough. The language is colloquial or they mix up terms too much and it gets confusing. This is the case for a bunch of OSR products I've read, for example Labyrinth Lord. Sometimes I read entries in there and I have to go back to the original B/X text just to figure out what the hell they were getting at.

Still, the fact that people try to ape the B/X format of describing rooms and monsters and spells is a testament to how good they are. I don't want "1d6 fire damage ongoing for 6 rounds (concentration, save halves)", I want text I can read and enjoy.

>>54543215
>Plus, Zak is following me now, so that's weird.
Give him a taste of his own medicine.
Follow him right back.

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>>54540489
I don't think you can get much more iconic than, "spooky snobby pariah"

>>54543732
go home Zak
yr drunk

>>54543215
>"LotFP style"

Well maybe I suppose. It's cool if you don't want them as a publisher, but not everything released through them is completely as you describe. Most of the excesses seem to come from Raggi, but he's been pretty good opening his little part of the world up to others who may not follow his particular vision. "Weird" just seems to be the common denominator between the products, not necessarily "doom porn". Again, you could always reach out and just get a conversation going. Worst case, you make a contact and maybe learn a little more about the industry as I would consider him to be successful from an indie standpoint. Cheers.

Do you guys like play reports or keep it for blogs?

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>>54543587
Maybe! But not my feudalism stuff.

Anyway, I might one day publish a book with 2-3 learning dungeons combined: 1 classic, 1 horror, 1 political/heist

>>54543732
>>54543942
It's weird. He has like 3,000 followers but posts nothing on G+.

>>54544041
It's more just a branding thing. Weird is fine, but my stuff isn't weird for the sake of it. It's designed with gamability before weirdness/content, while a lot of LotFP stuff is the other way around; ideas first, execution later.

Not really a big deal though. Plus, you fuck would pirate anything I published for money anyway, so taking advice from you seems nonsensical. :D

One last thing. I'm on vacation for 2 weeks, so any shitposting, blog-spamming, and general autofellatio isn't coming from me for the next little bit. It's all on you guys. Unless this is a cunning double-bluff.

>>54545281
If you don't have a blog, we'll take it.

But remember: this isn't a blog.
Match a 4chan writing style.

>>54545306
Rude! Plenty of us buy physical books of things we like.
Better service is better service is better service.

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>>54545549
Oh I know, I do to. Shelled out ridiculous bucks for VotE, for instance. Shipping man, shipping.
But pirating stuff first is just sensible. Quality control is non-existent in this industry, and a lot of stuff gets produced every year. You could pay $10 for something as good as Scourge of the Tikbalang or as awful as Eternal Knight.

>>54519031
Still 1e as far as I know.

Has anyone attempted to do a resource system for Fighters and Rogues to go with how Clerics and Wizards do it?

Not necessarily spells but like, you know. Fighters get a certain number of supremacy dice or special moves or tactics each day. Rogues get luck mechanics or focus, etc?

>>54546026
Take a look at DCC, at least for the rogue.

DCC fighters have a single mechanic to dictate if they're able to pull a maneuver or something like that (on a 3 or higher of their Mighty Deed of Arms dice). The casters technically don't have limited resources, but they're also the ones most susceptible to getting fucked over by RNG by far

>When you want to wait until next thread

>>54545761
What's wrong with flowers in shoes?

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I read an idea last thread about making a super simple magic system where the Wizard can just cast every spell he's got once per day. That's it, the whole thing.

I honestly really like this idea, but the problem is what sort of progression does he get beyond this? Just more spells in his toolbox?

Advantages of playing B/X over other games?

>>54547841
Are you having more fun with it over other games?

>>54547862

No, I haven't played it. I like some aspects of it, but not all of them.

>>54547841
Over AD&D? It's got most the good bits of AD&D in a format that's actually readable, and the ones that it doesn't are easy to port if you wanted them. Plus, everyone and their mom uses B/X or a B/X retroclone nowadays. Compared to any other system? >>54547862

>>54545306
>It's weird. He has like 3,000 followers but posts nothing on G+.
Pretty sure you have to message him to get invited to see his G+ rpg stuff. It's a sort of policing he does.

>>54547841
It's shit, play 2E instead

>>54547979
Whats so good about 2e?

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>>54547979

Whats the name of the webstie or tool to make pdfs layout for rules?

>>54548028
Mountain of materials. That's its sole saving grace.

Ascending AC or THACO?

>>54548262
Ascending. We're in the 21st century.

>>54548262
Is there any other option?

>>54548314
My GLOG hack forgoes to hit rolls and just uses defense as damage reduction, and you go straight to damage dice when you're doing something.

Also max damage rolls ignore defense, making that piddly d4 dagger actually okay at doing frequent but small criticals.

Also other bullshit but that's all that needs to be said for 'other option'

new thread?

>>54548960
nope after this post we still have 12 posts before we hit the limit

>>54549009
Even then, you don't really need a new thread until like page 8. You can even wait until the start of page 10 during slow periods.

>>54547386
being less prone to dyeing?

>>54549112

You can't just go up like that. That's lame, there's got to be more to it.

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Should I give my fighters anime fighting moves?

>>54550226
Yes, I loved the swordfighting in Detective Conan.

The Temple of Elemental Evil isn't in the trove, is it? I couldn't find it.

>>54547979

nice b8 m8

So do people actually like AC / chance to avoid taking damage as a mechanic or is it all just some big meme I'm not in on?

>>54550749
>TSR/1E/T Series/T1-4 Temple of Elemental Evil

If you know the product code and whether or not it's a 1E/2E/Basic product, it's easier to find stuff.

Or the setting, I guess, if it's setting-specific modules. Which I guess ToEE isn't, since it doesn't have a WGXX product code?

>>54550793
I personally hate AC and prefer defense rolls instead, with armor as DR, but that's just me.

>>54550793
Personally I think it's serviceable, especially because it makes taking damage way less frequent for the tougher classes without actually changing the amount of damage they take when they actually take it.

But I'm also a weirdo who kind of likes the Weapons vs. AC table, so my opinion probably doesn't count for much.

>>54550793
>So do people actually like AC / chance to avoid taking damage as a mechanic
Yes? Armor as DR is unrealistic AND plays badly, there's literally no upside to it. Armor genuinely does work as deflection (eg if somebody stabs you through armor it's because they found a gap in it and you'll get fucked up, you won't get half-stabbed because the armor like... cushions the blow) so the AC rule makes sense and most alternatives I've seen don't. Most complaints are a meme based on "MUH REALISM" from the kinds of guys who don't actually know anything about reality.

>>54550884
Armor-as-DR kind of makes sense for blunt damage and softer armors... but D&D tends to have plate armor as the default in most cases, and most of the time damage is going to be of the sharp kind.

Like, seriously. Swords of various types are the best weapons, so blunt weapons will tend to just be a Cleric thing. The most common monster attacks are claws and bites. Sometimes you get punches or tail-slams or trampling or whatever, but they're not as common or high-profile as the claw/claw/bite routine.

I guess you get more primitive monsters wielding clubs, but spears are also pretty popular for that case.

>>54551010
>Swords of various types are the best weapons
Although if you could hurt someone with a mace even if their armor stopped the attack, that might change it.

Maybe AC as it is for slashing and piercing weapons, but as DR for blunt?

>>54551029
The force of a blow doesn't magically disappear just because the sword didn't penetrate the armor. You're still getting a three pound lever hitting you with lethal force. There should be some HP loss.

>>54550884

Nobody said anything about realism my dude.

I just think it's kind of lame if a player spends the time and effort to deck their character out in different armor pieces, and then the enemy just rolls high and negates it. Naturally this will happen no matter what mechanic you use, but other forms of damage reduction or damage absorption smooth this over a bit. Also despite the difference between somebody not wearing armor (10) and somebody wearing the best armor (16) only being a difference of 30% chance any attack is going to hit or not, it still feels kind of shitty to people who don't wear armor.

Damage soak, where Armor basically acts as temp health, could be interesting. Especially if you allow certain weapons, spells, and Rogue sneak attacks to maybe penetrate armor defense?

>>54551010
>Armor-as-DR kind of makes sense for blunt damage
Only kind of. If someone hits you in the face with a warhammer the helmet doesn't really matter (and actually might be worse than nothing, because steel gets stove in and stays that way whereas your body kinda springs back), that's the whole point of blunt weapons versus armor. I guess if nobody's got anything better than a wooden club you have a point, but that's not really the situation. I think blunt weapons are significantly better handled the Chainmail way: the damage die determines how badly you got hurt and the fact that it's a blunt weapon improves the chance to hit vs. heavy armor.

>and softer armors
Okay, if the standard armor in your game is boiled-leather then sure, DR makes some sense. But in most games that would be better solved by just making leather armor a special case that gives one point of DR instead of an AC boost.

>>54551066
>I just think it's kind of lame if a player spends the time and effort to deck their character out in different armor pieces, and then the enemy just rolls high and negates it.
That logic makes absolutely no sense to me which is why I didn't consider it. It sounds like some sort of weird parallel to caster players getting buttmad that their totally awesome high-level spells normally didn't work on high-level Fighters and causing 3e. (Also, D&D doesn't have different armor pieces, it just uses suits. Are you used to GURPS or something?)

I mentioned realism because every *other* time I've seen the Armor-as-DR thing the guy's been complaining about how unrealistic AC is.

>>54551174
>I mentioned realism because every *other* time I've seen the Armor-as-DR thing the guy's been complaining about how unrealistic AC is.
Oh, AC and HP are pretty realistic for the purpose they were originally intended for - ship-to-ship naval combat.

They still work pretty well for D&D, but IMHO Armor-as-DR isn't the way to fix it. If only because it means that everything turns into a slow grind where you consistently lose tiny bits of health over the course of the day rather than occasionally losing big bits.

Really, though, the unrealistic bits of the combat system have less to do with AC and more to do with HP and the "fight perfectly fine until 0hp when you drop dead" problem. Which works fine in play, really, especially when combined with morale rules, but is easily the most ludicrous part of it all and just becomes more so if you introduce armor-as-DR because the "it's luck, stamina and willpower" explanation gets fundamentally undermined by that.

(Not the guy you're replying to.)

>>54551259

4e's bloodied (And how some stuff works better on bloodied people) worked pretty well there. The first half of your HP is small scratches, near misses and stamina. Under half HP is when the blood starts flowing.

>>54551259
>>54551285
I always figured that so long as you have any hit points left at all, it doesn't count: it's just a few nicks and cuts here and there until you take the big one and go down at last.

>>54551299
Yeah, see, that's the "luck, stamina and willpower" explanation. It works perfectly fine with the system as it is, really.

It's just that once you bring in armor-as-DR, well, you've established that each hit is an actual hit. The suggestion that max damage dice break through DR, for instance, comes with the implication that if the goblin ever rolls a four he ACTUALLY stabs straight through your armor.

Except, of course, that four damage is fuck-all and after a few levels you can probably take half a dozen actual legit stabs without breaking a sweat.

There's some ludonarrative dissonance going on there, basically. The "crit" effect suggests that it's an actual proper hit; the HP explanation implies that it's a scratch; the numbers mean that it's less worrisome than stubbing your toe.

There's conflicting messages, basically. For armor-as-DR to work with low-damage stabs, you need to have low hit point totals in addition to that.

Or, y'know, you do something like a "fine>wounded>dead" damage tracker thing with armor having a "shields must be splintered" effect or something, hell if I know. You're getting a bit away from the D&D system at that point, I guess.

>>54551396
>Or, y'know, you do something like a "fine>wounded>dead" damage tracker thing with armor having a "shields must be splintered" effect or something, hell if I know.
Shields are already splintered in my game, and I've occasionally brought up helmets saving someone's life when they were brought to zero health. I suppose it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to extend it to other armor as well.

Light armor can take one hit of your choice before breaking. Medium armor can manage two, heavy armor three - but in each of those cases the AC the armor provides drops dramatically after the first hit.

my goal in life is to collect a decent copy of every printed TSR product, but it turns out there are already at least a dozen d&d collectors already established in my area.

sad times these.

>>54551430
I was a bit inspired by torchbearer in wrinting that, to be honest - armor gives -1 success against a successful or tied attack/feint action, which is pretty much just -1 damage I suppose.
>Helmets break on use, and are bypassed by maces and warhammers. They stack with everything else, though.
>leather has a 50% of doing nothing and 50% doing the -1 damage thing. Spears, bolts and arrows bypass this. It can't break.
>chain always reduces damage, but has a 50% chance of breaking. maces and warhammers negate the damage reduction.
>plate always reduces damage, but has a 33% chance of breaking - against maces or warhammers, 50%
Broken armor can be repaired when you're back in town.
Shields just give a bonus to the Defend action, which "heals" you and beats attacks in the rock-paper-scissors thing going on in that game. Flails ignore shields.

>>54548314
There's that Target 20 idea I saw once. Personally I think it sounds kind of unwieldy though.

>>54550226
No.

>>54550793
Why wouldn't I? Also seconding >>54550884.

>>54550884
That thread about how weapons don't improve your ability to not be hurt besides by killing the other dude faster is pretty much the only thing I can think of that's really pretty inexplicable about AC/HP, and I'm in an historical fencing club. It's honestly a pretty good system, both for game purposes and for realism purposes.

>>54510483
Yes, definitely. Especially if you can make one that does a good job of getting away from spellburn, as that party just doesn't seem very OSR to me and is a pain in the assignment to track, but it's a pretty integral part of the system.

>>54551605
Just befriend and outlive every one of them.

>>54552457
Yeah, integrating the intricacies of especially one-on-one fencing is a tall order which causes a great deal of friction with HP in particular, but that's nothing unique to D&D and derivatives, I think. I think it has to be accepted as basically impossible unless you design most of the system around it like Riddle of Steel.

The nicest simple approximation I know of is to use a rock-paper-scissors type attack system (preferably using cards) where any given hit is about 50% likely to kill/disable or hurt but non-critically. But even then you start running into shit like "but what if I use a spear instead of a sword, shouldn't that make my Cautious Attack much more effective", so... it only really works well in limited scenarios, like if everyone's playing a rapier-waving swashbuckler.

>>54551396
>>54551285
>>54551259
Is there actually a system that tracks the progressive damage someone takes in battle and has it assigned to certain states and status effects? At full health your character has full range of movement and attack power. Wounds during this stage could be represented as superficial cuts from a poor dodge, bruises from the impact of a weapon, a missile that grazed the body, etc. At half health the character becomes Winded and suffers a small penalty of reduced movement speed and increased attack roll to hit the opponent. Wounds during this stage could be represented seriously such as puncture of a non-vital area, internal bruising from blocking the impact of a weapon, swelling, etc. At a quarter of the health the character becomes Haggard and suffers a penalty of their movement speed cut by half, increased attack roll to hit, and decreased damage. Wounds during this stage could be represented more fatal such as fractured or broken bones, hemorrhaging both internal and externally, dizziness, shortness of breath, concussions, etc.

>>54545306
The Game Analists here. Did you google yourself?

>>54553615
>Is there actually a system that tracks the progressive damage someone takes in battle and has it assigned to certain states and status effects?
Tons. This was a really common concern of the first wave of new-school, simulationist RPGs; RuneQuest, Chivalry & Sorcery and their ilk. The unrealism of HP grated hard on them and they used systems like "max HP is 12, every lost HP gives -1 on all d20 rolls" and similar.

The problem is that anything that works this way is actually unfun and plays like shit in practice. The result of the modifiers is a "death spiral" where you become less likely to hit the worse wounded you get, thus leading to more wounds and so on -- in effect, the fight is a race to see who can score the first hit by luck, which then typically leads to having the upper hand all the way down.

Concerns like this are why fighting games use stuff like super meters that build up as a round goes on, until you can blast out a devastating attack that, if well placed, even out the playing field. Those became standard super fast because they improve gameplay and entertainment.

>>54553671
Do you think we could we get super meters in our OSRs? It sounds like a fun concept.

>>54553717
Well, OSR hit points are too low to make it a bona-fide meter on low levels, whether it's lost HP, damage inflicted or both that fills the meter. But by mid levels you could definitely give Fighting-Men some sort of Desperation Move (as SNK games call them, appropriately), like, say, once you reach level 5, if you get beat down below 6 HP you can use your Whirlwind Attack that hits everyone in range, or the Dragon Cleaver that does triple damage on a hit and knocks the target down, and so on. I expect a lot of players would get a 4E vibe off it, but fuck them then.