Does willpower belong to Charisma?

No becuase charisma means having charm. What are you gonna charm yourself?

>>54476211
Saves should be modified by a primary stat and half-modified by secondary stats

Fortitude: Primary con, Secondary strength
Reflex: Primary Dex, secondary intelligence
Will: Primary Wisdom, secondary Charisma

Willpower is "I'll do it"
Charisma is "You'll do it"

>>54476232

Eh, I preferred 4e's method where you just got the higher of the two. It had simple charm to it.

>>54476211
Some of the ugliest people have the strongest convictions

>>54476232
This has been my thinking as well, and I'm glad to see somebody else agrees with me.

>>54476211
Most would agree that Charisma =/= looks. A good example is Samuel Vimes and Moist Von Lipwig. Vimes was never described as handsome. In fact the way he's played out, you immediately think of a gruff, worn, scruffy individual who's got some wear and tear. And Moist, by definition, has the world's most forgettable face. Yet both are considered highly charismatic, Moist for his smooth words and wit, and Vimes for sheer force of will. Both would be considered highly charismatic, thus, Charisma is, at least according to any definition that makes sense enough to have it used as a stat, is sheer force of will and personality.

TLDR: Yes.

>>54476235
Charisma is "I CAN TRULY DO IT"

>>54479070
...While you're a withering husk of despair inside.

>>54479079
no, that's depression

>>54476244
Ugly doesn't mean low charisma. There are more ugly races with charisma bonuses than pretty ones. Dragonborn. Liches, back when 3e made them a template. The newest one would be the Tabaxi from Volo's.

>>54479262
>Dragonborn
>Tabaxi
>ugly
Anyway, I'm pretty sure those kinds of races get CHA bonuses either because of some kind of supernatural gregariousness or because it's meant to be a starting point for having a good Intimidation skill, the latter of which is something that D&D has been fucking up for many years. Why are the classes most likely to be intimidating (i.e. the martials) are the ones who have no other benefit from high CHA?

>>54476211
Charisma is more a public face - whether you're handsome or not, you're convincing, you can make a good argument, you can get others to do things.

Willpower is something completely internal - if you don't have the mental fortitude to do something, or the motivation, you can't charm yourself into having more.

It's honestly to the point where I can't wrap my head around what you were originally thinking when you even suggested this. How could this ever possibly work? Why would you think it was a possibility?

>>54479403
>>54479397
>>54476235
>>54476227

Fucks sake, you guys really don't consider further than the elementary before you post.
No, charisma is not just how charming you are. It really is a measure of your resolve, something that draws people to see things your way and accept your leadership. Tony Stark is one charming bastard but the only people who follow his lead are even more spineless than he is.

The reason you may roll Wis on a Will save is because strong resolve is easily abused through misdirection. If you don't have the perception to see you are being used, no amount of Charisma will save you as your convictions drive you to act in the interest of your enemy.
Wisdom, Charisma and Intelligence are all necessary to create a character that can't be manipulated in some way or another. Low INT means you don't have the facts, low WIS means you can't see the truth, and low CHA means you won't stand your ground.

>>54476232
I kind of like how Pillars of Eternity handled categorized saving throws (defenses).

Fortitude: Strength (Might) & Constitution
Reflex: Dexterity & Wisdom (Perception)
Will: Intelligence & Charisma (Resolve)

>>54476235
Wisdom is knowing what you want.
Charisma is getting what you want.

>>54476211
I think Willpower should be shared between most or all mental statistics. That, or it should be a statistic in itself.

>>54476265
>Most would agree that Charisma =/= looks
D&D doesn't agree.

>>54480854
But it does though. D&D states that Charisma includes physical appearance, but that's not all of it.

You mean to tell me that paladins and sorcerers get stronger the prettier they are?

I'm fine with this magical realm of you are