Alright DnD haters, recommend me a system

>>54439004
Burning Wheel, GURPS, 13thage, Mythras (or Runequest 6),

So basically you want to play 4E

>>54439004
>I want cool spells, and for martials not to be boring as fuck.
>martials

You are too broken

>>54439046
Well no, of course, he doesn't want "blizzard of the coast" you see, he want a real game, exactly like 3.5!
A good game like 4e is not bad enough.

>>54439046
No No No NO. Played it for about a year when it came out, it was horrible. It "solves" the casters are OP, martials are boring problem by making them exactly the same. Everybody just has powers.

dark sun

>>54439069
>hurr hurr hurr, durr durrhurr durhurdurdeedum memes!

>>54439069
> by making them exactly the same. Everybody just has powers.
Yes, we know. You play 3.5. You hate good game design.
Instead, wizards should have very special rules that allow them to fuck everything up.
If the mechanic is the same for martial and casters then THEY ARE THE SAME.
Even if everything they can do is widly different, and balanced.

>>54439081
read setting, sorry please do not bully

>>54439004
GURPS

>>54439004
dude, read the catalog before making threads
54429350

>>54439090
I currently play 5, not 3.5, and I readily admit 3.5 has tons of flaws, 4 did a very bad job solving any of them though.

I'm here looking for a NON dnd game, not 3.5, 4 or 5, but by all means, keep shitposting.

>>54439041
Any details about any of those? What do you think they do well, or do badly? What advantages do they offer over dnd?

>>54439069
>making casters and maritals exactly the same

3.5 had a similar amount of saying you do X damage for Y effect or having you use Z ability for Y bonus. It's just that before, martials usually just had doing X damage and maybe Z ability for a bonus if they were lucky, while casters had pages and pages and pages of that.

All 4e did was pull back the curtain, look you in the eye, and tell you that wasn't fair, so everyone gets the same number of cool things to do in a day.

>>54439135
I already responded to you actually.
>>54439041

And if you think that 4e "did a very bad job" then I can only say what I said. You act like a grognard. You don't like it because it's different. The design in 4e is good.

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>>54439004
>>54439135
PLAY MYTHRAS.

>>54439004
Harnmaster

>>54439004
Shadow of the Demon Lord.

>>54439157
And if you don't like that, just play Essentials ffs.

>>54439208
My group wanted to move back to 3.5 around when the first essentials book came out, so I didn't read it desu. What did they change?

>>54439208
Yeah, ordinarily I argue against Essentials, but until level 10 or so it works perfectly, and still gives martials some options while still having them be distinct from spellcasters.

At the very least, the Knight subclass of Fighter can actually protect his party from enemies in a way that isn't just asking politely for the DM to attack them instead of running past.

>>54439235
Essentially, they added in more 3.5-esque versions of martial classes that were simplified and relied a lot more on just making basic attacks or using at-wills and encounter powers, rather than the standard allotment.

The problem there is that they drop off more sharply past level 11 when you get into Paragon, since at that point the damage on the various strikers doesn't keep up, and the Defender aura mechanic they came up with doesn't work properly when enemies start flying or teleporting all over the place.

>>54439004
SenZar.

>>54439180
I'm currently looking at their webpage, looks promising.

>>54439004
>>54439360
And also Anima - Beyond Fantasy.

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I like Strike!

>>54439362
Want me to sell it to you?

I could give you a history lesson on why it's a great system that's stood against D&D since it's creation as the fourth oldest commercial RPG.

I could make the argument that it succeeds better at being GURPS than GURPS.

I could also make the case that you have SIX different magic systems you can choose from, mixing and matching or simply choosing one to use and balance relative to Martials.

Or the fact that in terms of Martial capabilities, combatants, by default, get a variety of combat actions in combat besides "Swing Sword, Roll Damage."

Take your pick, I'll pick my rant.

>>54439454
Tell me about magic :)

>>54439454
>I could make the argument that it succeeds better at being GURPS than GURPS.
Bullshit.

>>54439471
>The grognard want to know about magic

>>54439501
>The grognard want to know about magic
I like magic, magic and mythic beasts are what separates fantasy from historical fiction. I know you are trying to insult me for like the OP casters, but I pretty much always DM, so nice try.

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>>54439471
Magic has five different Vairieties in the core rulebook, a Psionics option thanks to M-SPace, and the Classic Fantasy system, which emulates D&D style casting, albeit on a much more balanced scale.

Folk Magic is Practical Cantrips: The Magic System. Low level spells anyone can cast, anyone can use, and the GM can hand out like candy.

Animism: Thank Stormbringer for this one... Spiritual Channelling and Binding: The System, you cast spells and bind items using spirits.

Sorcery: It's classic Sorcery, Through Force of Will and Understanding you bind the universe to your will.

Mysticism: Classic Wizardy.

Theism: Clerical Magic.

Each system has different rules governing it, and different spells and abilities, but as the GM you can mix and match in order to create a unique system and even creat "Cults" which allow you to create your own Metagame Balance by limiting abilities and options for each cult.

>>54439501
GURPS is great because it's granular, which also makes it terrible. You're balancing fifteen different rulesets each of which involve at least five or more individual rules you had to tailor to fit the system you want, whereas Mythras invite you to deal with a given structure and modify it using large, moveable pieces. If GURPS is the granular, detailed, yet unsturdy sand castle you build with your own hands, Mythras is the more stable lego set you're able to build, take apart, and modify.

Plus, with the existence of the RQ Firearms Supplement, M-Space, Ships and Shield Walls, and the ability to adopt relatively any mechanic or facet of any other BRP game to the system, and you've got all the versatility you need without the absolute slog of having to deal with players reading through fifty different individual rules each a quarter of a page in length just to get the basics of your system down. GURPS does well because each rule is clarified in and of itself, so it can work with every other rule, however this makes for a slog of reading.

>>54439407
Stop shilling Strike!

Why does /tg/ keep shilling Strike!?

>>54439653
>Plus, with the existence of the RQ Firearms Supplement, M-Space, Ships and Shield Walls, and the ability to adopt relatively any mechanic or facet of any other BRP game to the system, and you've got all the versatility you need without the absolute slog of having to deal with players reading through fifty different individual rules each a quarter of a page in length just to get the basics of your system down. GURPS does well because each rule is clarified in and of itself, so it can work with every other rule, however this makes for a slog of reading.

Sorry, Extreme sentence fragment here. The sleeping pill is starting to hit. long story short, Various supplements for Mythras and use of other BRP System Mechanics make it almost as versatile as Gurps. The one thing it doesn't have is a good Decking/Hacking system, which, to be honest, are all complete slogs if they're more than a skill roll.

Also Gurps works because every rule is its own paragraph of clarification, which works well for system building... not so much for system reading and system playing when getting all your players to read the damn rules is like pulling teeth.

>>54439653
Is there a mega with some mythras books?

>>54439794
Here:>>54425677

>>54439041
I just looked up Runequest and realized it is set in the same world as one of my all time favorite video games, King of Dragon Pass. I will definitely have to check that out.

>>54439876
Mythras is what became of the latest version of RuneQuest, and still runs Glorantha quite well. They're nearly the same system.

>>54439907
Ah cool, Mythras is looking like the way to go then. I can't believe how much I played that game as a kid, and never realized the setting existed outside the game.

>>54439004
How did you manage to miss every good edition?

Try OD&D, Basic, or AD&D.

>>54439938
by being to young i guess? I started playing dnd in elementary school, and 3rd edition was what was at the gamestore and what my parents bought me.

>>54439728

It's 4e mechanics without having to admit that 4e was built around a solid idea.

>>54439728
it's pretty good?

>>54439454
Okay, so I've read over the basic rules, and it seems like Mythras isn't played with any sort of grid or battleboard, is that right? And this might sound like a dumb question, but I have never played an rpg without one, so, how do you keep track of where all the pcs are, npcs, terrain etc without one? Like how do you know if somebody is in range, if that big boulder is between you and the npc you want to shoot, that kind of shit?

>>54440680
You draw a picture. Or go Theatre of the Mind, and just imagine it, but that tends to lead to people having disagreements because they imagined things slightly differently.

>>54439069
Don't reply to 4ies, they're really confrontational.

>>54440719
It's what having a game you like misrepresented by internet memery does to you.

>>54440692
I mean, wouldn't it just be easier to have a table and put minis on it so that everybody knows where everything is? Can you really have tactical combat without knowing where all your enemies and allies are? How can I push the orc off the cliff and watch him fall to his death if I don't know where me, the orc or the cliff is at? Not trying to bait or anything, I am legit wondering this.

>>54440750
Well, ideally you'd know all those things roughly, enough so that you can ask the GM questions about it.

>so, you said the ork is standing on the left side of the road, that's where the cliff edge is, right?
>yeah
>can I push him off?

etc.

I still prefer map for precise positioning/movement/flanking, but it's workable.

>>54440750
>wouldn't it just be easier to have a table and put minis on it so that everybody knows where everything is?
The game not having everything measured in squares or hexes or inches doesn't stop you doing that. Dry erase boards work even better, because all you need is a pen and some basic drawing abilities.

>How can I push the orc off the cliff and watch him fall to his death if I don't know where me, the orc or the cliff is at?
The GM gives you a description and you imagine the situation. Works best with being a bit loose with the movement rules, so you don't waste heaps of time going "exactly how far away is he?".

Why do 4babies get upset so easily?

>>54440853
see >>54440739

>>54440794
Anybody have a good video of people playing this type of system? Tactical movement has always been in my mind a big part of combat, so I'm just having a hard time imagining running combat without precise distances.

>>54439004
>>54439069
Ignoring the martial-caster balance of 4e for the moment, was that the sort of complexity you want from your combat?

What do you consider 'cool spells'?

>>54440885
Yeah, I would say in general that is the sort of complexity of combat I want. I do think 4e did a lot of things well, even if I don't like a lot of other things it did.

In general cool spells for me are the more flexible and control type of spells. I think most direct damage spells are fairly boring and step on the sword swingers or archer's toes a bit. I like things like fog cloud, that gain their value by be used as part of a plan, like making it so the archers on the other side of the river can't see you anymore for example, rather then just being good because it does x damage. I also like magic that can be used outside of combat.

>>54440983
How about a spell that just pulls a fucking volcano right out of the ground?

>>54440990
That sounds pretty cool

So, looking at descriptions of the Mythras classic fantasy book, it looks like that uses a grid? Imma have to find a pdf for that.

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>>54441001
Other spells from the Natural school include the ability to fly, age and weather objects, produce water out of nothing, talk to the stones about the past and future, create an aura of fear over an area that will get pretty much anything to fuck off, create a geyser of boiling oil, mind-control people by looking them in the eyes, magic yourself up a tar pit, curse some guy with enmity of everything natural (up to an including food and drink), force areas of barren wasteland to become paradises, and terraform the planet as you like.

This is before you ascend to godhood and acquire deific bullshit powers.

>>54441055
I can get into that

>>54441055
If that seems a bit extreme, one of the extreme weather events that can happen is a firestorm that periodically shoots fireballs at the nearest, largest cluster of intelligent life.

>>54441069
That is only one of the 13 schools of magic, which all have similar levels of bullshit scattered throughout them. Since one of those is Spellsinging, and one of its 7th Order spells is essentially Power Word: Kill, you can rock people so hard that they disintegrate. A couple orders up, you can do it to 99 levels worth of people. In a system where mortal people top out at level 20.

>>54439069
I honestly wanna know- why is that a problem for you? You later admit you like magic (and DMing) anyway, so it's not like you hated PLAYING martials. What about other classes having spell-ish-things bugged you enough that you just couldn't dig it?

>>54439728
I didn't realize this was a meme until now.

>>54441072
>periodically shoots fireballs at the nearest, largest cluster of intelligent life.
>intelligent life
So not just destructive, but actively "God hates you in particular" malicious. I like it!

>>54441108
4rry here

I'm honestly interested what sort of tactical depth a game can have where you can pull actual active volcanoes out of your ass and power-word kill almost a hundred people. It feels like any sort of tactical approach when such brute force options are available would be pointless. Like, flanking sorta loses meaning when you can just drop a volcano on an army, you know?

Of course, it's possible that the spells are liited to such a point when using them regularly is unfeasible, but then I feel like showing them off is sort of disingenuous. "You can do all these powerful cool things! Except you'll only get to do them very-very rarely!"

>>54439004
Have you considered Fantasy Craft?

>>54441137
The jury's out on whether the malicious firestorms are a final "fuck you" from the demonic overlords that ruled the planet 3000 years ago, or just the result of slowly failing and heavily damaged terraforming magic. Probably the former, but the latter is possible, given that it occasionally produces bizarre things like a frozen lake in the middle of a
hot desert.

Other fun weather includes multiple-vortex tornadoes that can shred everything in an up to 10,000 feet RADIUS area. That's 60,000 square miles. Of storm.

Or how about low clouds of radiation? That's not how radiation normally works, but somebody's made it work that way just to fuck you in the ass. Roving teleports that can lob you into another plane of existence on a bad day? Winds composed of tortured souls? Storms capable of altering not only your body, but your fate and the very form of reality itself?

Makes one long for a good rainstorm, doesn't it?

>>54441137
>I honestly wanna know- why is that a problem for you?
With everybody using powers, it just felt like everybody was a caster. I want martials to be the equal of casters power level wise, but I don't want them to just become them. The classes all just felt kind of similar. It wasn't just me, my whole group wanted to go back to 3.5, so anyways, while I think I can convince them to try a new system, I doubt I could convince them to play 4 again.

>>54441149
I have not. Tell me about it, what does it do well? Is there anything you think it does poorly?

>>54440983
I think you just jumped into 4e a little too early in its lifespan then. Later supplements fleshed out options across the board; your fog cloud example could be Obscuring Mist (Druid 2, PHB2), Solid Fog (Invoker 6, Divine Power), or Stalker's Mist (Ranger 2, HotFK), in addition to Wall of Fog which was in the original PHB (Wizard 6).

4e never stopped you from using powers out of combat, it's just whether or not the DM agrees it does anything useful. Rituals are also explicitly out of combat but I've never seen anyone use them.

>>54441254
>The classes all just felt kind of similar
This is really a 3.5 thing. It's not true AT ALL. Playing a Rogue or a Wizard is very different, you don't do the same thing at all in combat and the powers you have are way different.
It's just a format issue. It's made with the same format? Well, it's the same thing!
It's as nonsensical as saying that all spells feel the same because they're made like spells.

>>54441273
I'll admit, I may have just been dumb. Its been several years since I played 4e, and I was a lot younger then. Maybe I'll read through my old rulebooks and give it a second change, but like I said, I don't know if I could ever get my group to try it out again.

>>54441338

I've heard it makes a great mecha game.

>>54441338
Maybe Gamma World? It's 4e-like but more obviously diverse.

>>54441273
>It's not true AT ALL.

>Most people criticized this game for this flaw, and they are all WRONG, because my opinion is superior to theirs!

Whoa dude. Moving your character to where their role is supposed to stand and then cycling through your handful of powers may feel really different to you, but you can't just ignore what the majority of players felt just because it upsets you.

>>54441375
He's upset about their feelings not aligning with reality. Stupidity is upsetting for some people.


You gonna do that Fighter who fights like a swordmage any time soon?

>>54441399
>He's upset about their feelings not aligning with reality.

It sounds like you genuinely think "move (?), select power, repeat" for all the classes genuinely doesn't get tedious as fuck, especially when the classes are pigeonholed into weird artificial niches.

That's the reality, and why 4e largely failed.
But wait, tell me people are wrong and stupid for not seeing the nuances of your unloved game.

>>54441375
i made a wizard in 3.5 and it felt like playing a martial because i ran out of spells and spent the rest of the session shooting a crossbow

>>54441533
>It sounds like you genuinely think "move (?), select power, repeat" for all the classes

How is this different from any of the WotC editions?

>>54441559
For one thing, improvising isn't just another power, and a power that fails to scale well as you increase in level because your class's powers have better synergy.

Well, I'm heading to bed, thanks for the dudes who helped, I have a good list of games to research, I'm pretty excited.

>>54441569
>For one thing, improvising isn't just another power,

What does this even mean? A "power" is just a format for actions you could take. An improvised action _could_ be presented in the power format, but you usually don't because that's why it's improvised in the first place.

>and a power that fails to scale well as you increase in level because your class's powers have better synergy.

As opposed to all the scaling improvisations other D&Ds have?

The fact that 4e improv table scales at all is fucking huge advantage it has over the others.

>>54441610
It's gonna be funny though when you just end up playing D&D again because you tried to take D&D haters seriously, and end up realizing only weeks from now that most of the games listed in this thread are just hollow imitations.

>>54441637
>a "power" is just a format for actions you could take.

You mean a restrictive template that fails to adapt to anything outside of a set of limited parameters?
It's basically a system that assumes its players are idiots, and frankly, that's actually pretty fair.

>>54441679
>You mean a restrictive template that fails to adapt to anything outside of a set of limited parameters?

Worst case, you can literally add anything into a "special" line at the bottom.

But feel free to describe anything that you think wouldn't work as a power.

>>54441679
Uh, there's nothing inherently restrictive about power formatting. The closest thing to a restriction is 'too much text and it'll be hard to read in a playing card size box', but if you have that much text you probably want to rethink your power anyways.

>>54441679
>You mean a restrictive template that fails to adapt to anything outside of a set of limited parameters?

Doesn't that apply to spells in most games?

>>54441736
>Uh, there's nothing inherently restrictive about power formatting.

I guess you could argue that, but the issue is that with the game itself failing to do anything but prove that the format is restrictive and makes the game feel like a tedious slog, so I'm amazed that you think you can somehow redeem the game that failed.

>>54441802
>I guess you could argue that, but the issue is that with the game itself failing to do anything but prove that the format is restrictive and makes the game feel like a tedious slog, so I'm amazed that you think you can somehow redeem the game that failed.

How is it restrictive then? What can't you do with it?

>>54441736

One of the Planeshaper Epic destiny abilities remains my favourite thing ever in 4e for how thematic and fun it is.

Shape Reality (30th level): Your transcendent understanding of the universe empowers you with the ability to bend and warp your environment. You gain an aura 10 that allows you to reshape reality as you see fit. During your turn, you can alter the environment in any of the following ways by spending a minor action:

• Change the temperature. Creatures that start their turns within your aura automatically take 15 cold damage or 15 fire damage (your choice). You can spend another minor action to return the temperature to normal, eliminating this damaging effect.
• Permanently transform any squares of difficult terrain within your aura into normal terrain.
• Permanently transform any squares of normal terrain within your aura into difficult terrain.
• Create breathable air in any or all squares.
• Fill 9 unoccupied squares with a solid surface, such as stone or wood. If you fill a square with a solid surface that is not attached to another surface (in other words, you create a stone slab 5 squares up in the air), the surface hovers in place.

That shit makes you FEEL like the sort of guy who can craft a plane of existence. Rather than it being a level 9 spell any spellcaster can do on his weekend off.

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>>54441802
Yeah OK, I guess I can't make a spell with unique flavor or anything.

>>54441736

The biggest issue with 4E's power mechanic, or certainly the extent it used it, was that most of the powers were inherently disassociated mechanics within the game space that had little context outside the scope of the mechanic being used.

Basically if the character in the world can't explain what the mechanic is actually representing then the mechanic is disassociated.

For example if you asked a wizard in a game world that uses vanician magic why he can only cast X fireballs per day he'd be able to explain to you about how preparing spells works etc. This is directly translated into the mechanics.

However if you ask a 4E Rogue why he can only use his blinding barrage ability once per day he won't be able to answer you because there isn't a fictional reason it's purely a mechanic.

>Blinding Barrage Rogue Attack 1
A rapid barrage of projectiles leaves your enemies clearing the
blood from their eyes.
Daily Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Close blast 3
Requirement: You must be wielding a crossbow, a light
thrown weapon, or a sling.
Target: Each enemy in blast you can see
Attack: Dexterity vs. AC
Hit: 2[W] + Dexterity modifier damage, and the target is
blinded until the end of your next turn.
Miss: Half damage, and the target is not blinded.

Yes he could come up with some justification 'this ability requires specialised ammo so I can only use it once' To which you'd then say ' well can you just go buy more ammo then, why do you need to sleep to replenish it? He could say 'my enemies would only fall for it once' to which you could say ' well what if you're fighting a different group then?' etc.

Any of these explanations then effectively becomes either meaningless fluff which doesn't change your decision making and roleplaying or a house rule - which is just the rule zero fallacy and also hugely complex to implement for hundreds of different combat powers.

>>54442142

>Cont

For another example take the War Devils 'Beseiged Foe' ability.

Besieged Foe (minor; at-will)
Ranged sight; automatic hit; the target is marked, and allies of the war devil gain a +2 bonus to attack rolls made against the target until the encounter ends or the war devil marks a new target

On the surface this looks simple mechanically if you understand 4E. However how can the GM describe what's happening here in the game world? He can't and so the players can't interact with it via the game world. They have to resort to mechanics.

Again he could make it up and say 'the devil is cursing you with his magic' to which a player could say 'well can I dispel the mark then?' and again you have the fluff/ house rule issue.

In contrast a wizard can explain why his fireballs are limited and the players can then interact with that, for example stealing the wizards spell book, countering the fireball with the knowledge he can only cast so many , it interuptting the wizard while he rests so he can replenish his spells.

Disassociated mechanics inhibit actual roleplay choices and decision making and reduces the game purely to video game style mechanics which I don't think roleplaying games should be in the business of impersonating as they simply can't do it as well as video games.

While all RPGs have disassociated mechanics to one degree or another, experience points for example are another one, when the system is built from the ground up with them in mind as 4E is you get a disjointed feeling RPG hence all the comparisons to MMOs etc.

Likewise players aren't going to think of inventive options when they have a bunch of mostly combat powers infront of them and are instead going to lean on those hence the game mostly being a combat slog.

>>54442162

I think the issue you bring up here can actually be explained using GNS theory (sorry, I just think it's actually relevant here). Fourth edition D&D is one of the most gamist systems ever designed. The game often does things for gameplay reasons without thinking how they make sense in the universe or incentivise creating a compelling story. For some people, that's fine, but a lot of people got into RPGs for the things that they can do that other kind of games can't, and 4e kind of ignored that in favour of having the best mechanical combat design it could.

>>54439004
>>54439041
>GURPS

I'd second this, but further refine it, head over to the GURPSGEN, the first pic is a pdf with links.

You want Dungeon Fantasy and Basic Set--I might even wait until the DF omnibus thing comes out because that will all be consolidated.

The thing you MUST remember with GURPS is that most shit is preloaded. Imagine it not as making a level 1 or 5 character, but making a level 10 or 20 character, there're many options.

Further, there are no mistakes. if D&D if you bugger up your feat selection of skill point roll you might be a little fucked, or a lot fucked. In GURPS you just save up the points again, which will take a while, but there's no level cap, so yeah.

>>54439147

GURPS does murderous combat and tactical combat really fucking well. Lots of basic options.

Also, if you're into it, you can make your own magic systems.

>>54442142
>For example if you asked a wizard in a game world that uses vanician magic why he can only cast X fireballs per day he'd be able to explain to you about how preparing spells works etc. This is directly translated into the mechanics.

And why does it work like that for clerics? Your god will only grant your prayers X times a day no matter how many times you pray?

>>54442162
>On the surface this looks simple mechanically if you understand 4E. However how can the GM describe what's happening here in the game world? He can't and so the players can't interact with it via the game world. They have to resort to mechanics.

...it's pretty easy to justify. He's directing his allies to focus on you.

I mean, that's how the Warlord as a class works.

>>54441108
I'm a little surprised to see somebody discussing SenZar. What books do you have, anon?

>>54442343

Yes , such is the nature of how deities bless their clerics in this world.

Likewise if a cleric loses their faith/their god dies / they switch to an alignment they lose their powers. Hence the mechanics linked to the game world.

>>54442418
>Yes , such is the nature of how deities bless their clerics in this world.

So no matter how dire and desperate the situation, a god won't give his follower more powers a day? A worshipper of Thor could be fighting giants and despite the fact that they are fighting his personal foe, it won't help?

>>54439169
Shut the fuck up. OP said a game OTHER than DnD specifically. Stop screaming about HP Bloat: The Game and actually stay on topic, kay?

>>54442418
>Yes , such is the nature of how deities bless their clerics in this world.

Actually, I don't think D&D has ever really had that be how clerics work in the books. The Cleric Quintet doesn't work remotely like that., nor does Pool of Twilight. It's a pure game thing.

>>54442278
+1. Listen to this anon, OP. GURPS Dungeon Fantasy solves every issue I ever had with D&D. I wish I had found it years sooner. Hell, I wish it had existed years sooner.

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>>54439728

>>54442475

As an addendum to that: Nor do the Dragonlance books. All three do it the same way but none of them are spell slots. They are basically Shadowrun's drain system, as the body can only handle so much divine power and it's tiring. A cleric nearly kills himself in Pool of Twilight drawing beyond that limit but he can expressly keep channeling until it kills him.

Bards are also handled entirely differently in the Harper books from the spell slot system with Danilo thann. Where the bardic magic is limitless but tied to emotions and gets really shakey if you can't stay emotionally together.

I think Wizards are the only class that actually has rules and fluff line up there.

>>54439147

>Burning Wheel

Burning wheel has the deep complexity you asked for but with many aspects functioning as self-contained modules, allowing you to decide what you want to include and add in new rules without as much hassle as other games. The skill list is ridiculously extensive and the ability to FoRK (fields of related knowledge) where if you have other skills that you feel help you complete your task then you can add extra dice.

Character creation is daunting and hard to figure out if you only have the book but if you use an online tool called charred ( https://charred.herokuapp.com/#/ ) it’s great fun and I actually mess around on it sometimes just to see who I can make. You make a character by selecting their ‘lifepaths’, the things they did growing up that made them who they are, then allocating the various points you get to different things.

melee combat has 3 separate methods of resolution which allows you to make boring fights that lack consequences quick while letting you get very tactical with the full fight rules; where you script every strike, block and parry in a satisfying blow by blow sort of way. It also lets you use the environment well with proper mechanical support. In one fight the opponent turned out to be too strong to deal with normally so one player picked him up and threw him in a pit and the game had the stuff in place to handle that properly rather than other games where the GM has to figure stuff out on the spot, which isn't always best.

>>54442842
>>54439147

cont.

Social systems are great in BW because of many smaller systems but for me it’s the ‘duel of wits’ system that stands out. It lets you conduct arguments and debates like a fight with the above mentioned blow by blow scripting. The social side is so good I’ve made and loved characters that literally cannot fight but can talk the party out of any corner.
I cannot say much about the magic system besides it’s very complicated and has the power to be crazy broken because the GM disallowed magic for that reason. Although I’ve seen homebrew ideas floating around that replaces it with easier to understand systems.

While it has a bit of a learning curve initially because so many mechanics are ether unique or rarely used by other games the whole thing becomes intuitive quickly if at least one person if already familiar with it

>>54439729
Reflavor Mythras spirit combat for the perfect hacking system

>>54439004
Basically everything you're saying points you towards Legend(RIP), but I can also recommend FantasyCraft, Burning Wheel, and especially Earthdawn.

>>54441142
"They have an hostage"
"We need that item they have"
"We need to conquer the castle, not destroy it"

There.

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>>54439207
>Shadow of the Demon Lord.
This. It's essentially what 5e should have been. Stealing this image from the other thread.

>>54445523
>Odd habbits
>Mostly quirky or funny little things expected of a goblin
>punctuated by like 3-4 serious fucking THAT GUY warning flags
I haven't looked into Shadow of the Demon Lord, is it all like this?

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>>54445707
Nay.

>>54441261
Fantasy Craft is a 3.5 Rebalance, so the action structure is easy to adapt to (two half actions instead of standard+move, so any character can attack twice in one turn. No full attacks).

Spellcasting is multiability dependent, there's a regenerating "per scene" resource of mana instead of vancian that gives casting flexibility but removes the 15 minute workday.

BAB rebalanced so that 3/4ths is plenty to hit most opponents. Classes rewritten (none of the original 3.5 classes exist) so that everybody has multiple focuses, except for the Soldier, who is the Pure Martial (and is terrifying for it). Skill actions are beefed up in what they can do so that skillmonkey is a 100% valid focus. Feats are enormous and powerful, character defining choices; the ability to rage like a barbarian is one feat. Getting a free attack on anyone who misses you in melee is one feat. Etc.

Spell library rewritten alongside the scaling of spell DCs so Save or Suck doesn't happen.

Proficiencies are simplified, as you get a pool of proficiencies to purchase at chargen in broad categories like Edged or Blunt. Proficiencies (and you get more as you level) can also be spent on getting Tricks, which are modifications to combat actions, like doing full weapon damage on a trip, do a called shot to strike through armor, etc.

Armor is DR with a penalty to your AC.

There's more changes, but it's hard to summarize them all in one post; FCs arguably just the best "DnD but fixed" around, for people who didn't have a problem with the core ruleset but hated the class balance and boring feats.

>>54441254
I think the only counterpoint to the "Feels the same" argument is to ask if you've ever played a fighting game. All 4E did was standardize the written format of your actions, while adding hundreds more possible actions to take. In a fighting game, everyone has, on paper, the same tools; if I'm playing Street Fighter, my character has a Light, Medium, and Heavy Punch. I have a Light, Medium, and Heavy Kick. I have a grab. I have a critical art. Hell, if both people are using shotos, you can go further and say "they both have a projectile, a body projectile, and a rising uppercut". But even if on paper they have "the same tools", those standardized format tools actual purpose, usage, recovery, damage, etc all vary where in an actual game, the strategy and flow is completely different. And then when you have different archetypes beyond shotos, like hard zoners, grapplers, rushdown, etc, they get way, way different tools. And it's the same for 4E; 4E did more than 3.5 to make classes play different, just by giving them different powers! Did a Barbarian and a Fighter actually play the slightest bit differently once they were both in melee range rolling their full attacks? No, they just had different sources of bonuses/different numbers on their To Hit and their Damage roll.
4E might have been too big a change in one edition. 4E might have had its failings in monster design (In MM1 at least). It might have had problems in narrative powers, but it did absolutely not have problems with "everyone playing the same".

>>54445746
>Not setting up tear farms with hordes of slaves that are exposed to large amounts of cut onions and other eye watering vapour.
>Not examining the chemical makeup of tears and creating a substitute with much less danger to themselves.
>Implying suddenly feeling again wouldnt make them feel terrible for what they just did

I hate this page more than I should

>>54439004
Not playing at all is better than playing dnd.

>>54439004
HACKMASTER!

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>>54439069
Is that bad?

>>54439004
Your best bet may be to ask the folks over at the OSR thread.

Ars Magica, child

Shadow of the Demon Lord and A Song of Ice and Fire Roleplaying

>>54446162
4e got really fucked over via its marketing and presentation. I'd argue too much of the DnD sheen got pulled back and so the whole game came off as, well, very gamey.

That said, my personal gripe is how they nerfed casters and magic in general instead of bringing martials up to their level.

>>54450041
>That said, my personal gripe is how they nerfed casters and magic in general instead of bringing martials up to their level.

How would you do such? The utility gap between the two is staggering.

Which things could 4e not do that 3.5 did that was an essential part of being a spellcaster?

>>54450238
>Which things could 4e not do that 3.5 did that was an essential part of being a spellcaster?
Trivializing everything and making Martials feel worthless.

>>54450238
If this is the dude who I think it is, he'll mostly bring up utility effects. When being pointed at rituals, he'll say too slow/costly not necessarily wrong, but you can build for it.

>>54450615

Costly, I'd agree with. They really should have had more rituals work like some of the later ones (Where the cost was in healing surges rather than GP).

Time...eh, I like the time factor and we got rituals later on that could be cast as a standard action with a 1-shot scroll rather than the full ritual.

>>54450238
I honestly don't know and was just mentioning what didn't thrill me about 4e. The reasoning behind their decision is obvious; that doesn't stop it from being a downside for me.

If WotC had to go weaboo fightin magic to make it sork, I would not have minded one bit.

>>54439041
>GURPS
kys anon

>>54442278
Listen to this anon. All you need is a strong GM. The more experienced the GM is, the better. Mainly because they have their own systems for dealing with problems.

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>>54451883

>>54442888
You got the special moves in animism already, so it shouldn't be to hard

>>54439004
Fantasy Craft. It's literally 3.5 but not dogshit.

>>54452587
and crunchier?

>>54452639
more or less. splats are very limited compared to the mountains of junk pushed out for 3.5, but virtually everything published for fantasy craft is good

>>54442142
>>54442162
>>54442418
There's a really simple explanation to all this:

You're a putz.

Specifically, you're giving some things (magic) a free pass and taking a fine-toothed comb to others (not magic). WHY can a wizard prepare so many spells per day of each level? There's no explanation for that given, but that's fine because magic. Can't I swap a pair of level 3 slots for a level 6 slot? No? Because...? No one knows, it just doesn't work that way. But that's fine because magic.

Conversely, a fighter can only kick a motherfucker through a window once a fight, and HOLD UP THE FUCKING PHONE RIGHT HERE THIS MAKES NO SENSE WHATSOEVER. Why not? Can't he tire out his kicking leg or is only able to surprise people once or something? Oh sure, sure... but then WHAT IF HE DOESN'T SKIP LEG DAY because if it ain't magic, it has to be entirely, 100% consistent all the way down for any asinine workaround you can think of.

Except even being magic isn't enough because devil eye curses can't be magic unless dispel magic affects them. Never mind that dispel magic literally doesn't affect curses in 3.5, so it fails your own test. Where's the consistency now? Why doesn't dispel magic affect curses?! NOTHING MAKES SENSE THIS SYSTEM IS COMPLETELY DETACHED FROM THE GAME WORLD!

Well, that or you're willing to shrug and have fun with one system (and magic) and try very very hard not to enjoy the other (and not magic).

>>54442861
Tell me more about these social systems that have rules.

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>>54439004
Star Wars RPG by Fantasy Flight. Interesting system very different from traditional D&D style games.
The system will get a generic printing by the end of the year. Also the system has lots of mods and conversions.

>>54439004

Pathfinder. Other ones aren't worth it, except maybe Dark Heresy or Shadowrun (you don't like sci-fi though... Fag).

Anima is awful and the translation just makes it worse. Who the hell thought a system where you're at -constant- risk of being one shot, a single enemy can stunlock your entire group to death with no chance to counter, and initiative is live or die from level 1 was a good idea was out of their mind. Even worse when you consider your skills take the same level up resource as your abilities and stats...

DnD 4 and 5 are amazing if you dont like making a character, making a interesting build, having fun, or roleplaying. They say October we get a magical book that makes 5th good but I'm not banking on it.

If you like pretending you're playing a real tabletop you can do:

Fate, Fate Accelerated, Fiasco (lol), any one of those 'quick and easy systems', Dread, Maid RPG, FATAL, etc...

>>54453368
>There's no explanation for that given, but that's fine because magic.
Yes. We don't understand how magic works but we DO understand how reality/physics are supposed to work.

>>54439004

2e

>>54439004
Warhammer Fantasy RPG.

>>54453368

>curses are a very specific kind of magic that's designed to be difficult to remove, hence why you need a very specific magic to get rid of it
>While a sixth level spell is more complicated than a fifth, fourth, etc, it's not complexity that limits their ability to cast spells, but rather their direct magical power, which manifests as the ability to cast a variety of spells, some more powerful than others

there you go bub, I explained it. Now come up with a theoretical explanation that allows martials to still be martials while healing damage on every strike or using your sword to do sonic damage with a special swing.

Look, I don't have a problem with Tome of Battle, and its systems are actually very good for creating the kind of feel I'm going for(preternaturally skilled fighter), but the content doesn't really match up with that, typically tending towards the supernatural or outright magical. That's not a problem in and of itself, but it's not what I'm looking for.

>>54441375
>Whoa dude, the format is realy a big problem!

How so boring, in this game the druid, the bard, the wizard, the cleric and the warlock are ALL THE SAME.
You MOVE, you CAST, and END TURN. Fucking boring game.
How so boring, in this game the Fighter, the Monk, the Rogue, and the Barbarian are ALL THE SAME.
You MOVE, you ATTACK and END TURN.

Wait, I'm dishonest here, sometiems you can MOVE, and USE CLASS ABILITIES, and END TURN.

Fucking boring game, only two options by class, and it's the same as everyone!

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>>54439004
>>54439041
>>54439069
>>54439956
>>54440990
>>54441610
>>54442469
>>54446566

Spawn of Fashan.

>>54456541
Not him, but the entire HP system is nonsensical. At best you can call it abstract and handwave the details, at which point saying that restoring HP requires magic is pretty stupid.

>>54455999
>you don't like sci-fi though
I don't hate sci-fi, and I'd happily play in a friend's sci-fi game or w/e, but I'm almost always the DM, and I prefer fantasy.

>>54457109

The HP system is a necessary abstraction, and frankly I feel like anyone who goes "GETTING STABBED? AND LIVING?" doesn't know a whole lot about actual history. It's not like getting shot with a gun(and even then, location still matters). Stab wounds/cuts are only really a problem if they get infected or hit a major artery. There's men who have been stabbed 40+ times and survived. I hate the "hp only makes sense as an abstraction" meme, because it ignores actual logic and history.

>>54457246

I mean, I guess if you wanted a better system, come up with a way to port the Dwarf Fortress combat system over. Other than that... HP it is.

>>54456460
yea, 2nd Edition, and/or Zweihänder

maybe Conan 2d20?

but seriously, OP, the fuck's your problem with sci-fi? it has some of the mechanically 'deepest' games and a good number of them can even be called a fantasy hybrid - I have this creeping suspicion that you think sci-fi = dry, sterile Star Trekiness or whatever, in which case do yourself a favour and check out the 40k rpgs (Black Crusade's the best, jsut trust this anon) and Mutant Chronicles at least, perhaps even something like Polaris or Eclipse Phase. Or maybe you don't think that and you're well educated on the sci-fi genre, in which case you're simply wrong by not liking anything at all in it, but hey, at least you're willing to move on from D&D now, growing needs to start somewhere

>>54457512

*sorry, this is meant to be a re to 54456483, not 54456460

I remembered another legit one: Atlantis: The Second Age

>>54457512
I don't dislike sci-fi, I play 40k, I've read plenty of sci-fi books, including some of my favorite books of all time. I just like fantasy more as a genere, and would rather play a fantasy game. Especially since I'm the DM, I'd play in a sci-fi game, but if I'm coming up withe the world, the story, all the npcs etc, I'd rather do it fantasy.

>>54456541
>Now come up with a theoretical explanation that allows martials to still be martials while healing damage on every strike

adrenaline

> using your sword to do sonic damage with a special swing.

I think that one was actually explicitly magical, but maybe swing it _very_ fast.

there you go bub, I explained it

>>54457605
to add onto this, when I DM I don't use premade monsters at all, besides for inspiration some times, I make up all my own enemies to throw at the players based around what I think will make cool, entertaining fights for this, and I feel more comfortable doing that for fantasy.

>>54439407
Strike fucking sucks and you know it.

>>54457605
I see anon.

Generally I'd suggest stop trying to find a non-D&D rpg which out-D&Ds D&D, and instead embrace the ways and means non-D&D rpgs deliberately and by design differ from D&D, otherwise you'll never be satisfied outside of (retro)clone/heartbreaker territory.

Did you look at some of the suggestions made?

>>54457614

adrenaline doesn't heal you(though that would work for temporary hitpoints, and would honestly be clever. Might use that when I inevitably try to rewrite ToB into something that isn't magic as fuck).

Like I said- I don't think it's BAD to have explicitly magical "martials". It's just not what I want when I think of D&D. There's a place for bullshit high flying combat, I just wish there was more of one for a more gritty down to earth martial combat with magic support(which is what 2e was like, btw. In a game right now, and magic is mostly support- it's good for forcing morale rolls(anyone killed by magic is an automatic morale check), keeping the team going on dungeon crawls, and some fun minor effects, but mostly you need to actually fight)

>>54439004
secret of zir`an
les terre d`amarande
pathfinder if you dont want to REALLY change system.
legend of the 5 rings c not-japan fantasy but the system is stellar.
exalted second ed.

on top of my head thats it

>>54457854
Yeah, i've been browsing through the pdf share thread looking for rules for some of these systems, I'm reading through one right now. Its probably going to take a while though, I'll have to read a rulebook, decide if I like it or not, and then get my players to read it.

>>54457614
whips can break the sound barrier at the tip.
cracking a whip just beside the ear COULD make a little sonic damage?

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>>54457924
>les terre d`amarande
that's horrifying
horrifurrying

>>54457882
The fact that you keep proving >>54453368 right while thinking you are being smart is fucking hilarious.

>>54439004

I second Burning Wheel as probably the closest to what you want, but you should also check out The One Ring RPG. It's Tolkien done right, and particularly the journey rules might be interesting to you. The combat isn't super tactical, but it's not boring.

Congrats on the massive butthurt this thread somehow caused to the 2 people who still play 4e, OP.

>>54453436
Characters get a stat called 'Circles' which you can use to find someone you need. you specify the sort of NPC you want to know make a circles check and depending on your successes will change your relationship with them (roll badly and the person you want exists but they hate you or will want something big in return for any help). This is good because the GM doesn't have to have figure out ahead of time what NPCs the party will need because the players will circles them as needed.

>>54457882
HP isn't meat points.

>>54459050

why not? A single stab wouldn't necessarily kill you, and what is it if it isn't meat points? Luck? Because that's really fucking boring then. Instead of getting stabbed, you're... almost getting stabbed, but managing to dodge last second? Shouldn't that be covered by AC?

HP not being meatpoints makes less sense than HP being meatpoints.

>>54458035

How, exactly? By talking about wanting to refluff and rework a book to use the same systems but with different fluff? By saying that while the adrenaline excuse doesn't work for healing, it would be an escellent excuse for bonus HP, something I say I intend to use for the aforementioned refluff/rework? I like the rules for martials set out in Tome of Battle. I just don't like the fluff and some of the mechanics, because, as I've said repeatedly, it doesn't match what I want out of the game. Hell, I'll even give you an example of one that doesn't need a refluff from that book- iron guard's glare. Your intimidating presence and focus forces all enemies to split their attention to you, reducing their rolls for purposes of hitting allies by one. Brilliant. Love it. Mechanically interesting option that fits the more down to earth feel. Yes, it's a little silly- but it can be explained through natural means. It's Guts vs Goku. Guts might be unrealistic, but he's never fired an energy beam.

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>>54439004
>I am looking for good tactical combat
D&D 4th ed (ie D&D for d&d haters)

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>>54439046
aww you beat me too it. Writing that post felt sus.

>>54457246
>The HP system is a necessary abstraction
>necessary
no, it's not. especially not when they mix meatpoints with luck and skill/experience.

>>54459114
I played 4e weekly for over a year. Like I said in the OP, I'm looking to try out new, non-Dnd systems.

>>54459106
>why not? A single stab wouldn't necessarily kill you, and what is it if it isn't meat points?

Stamina, durability, will to fight, skill, and yes, even luck/plot armor.

>HP not being meatpoints makes less sense than HP being meatpoints.

HP being meatpoints means a high level barbarian has literal tons of meat and blood.

>How, exactly?
By sticking to HP being meat points, for one.

> it would be an escellent excuse for bonus HP

If HP is meatpoints, then how? Would adrenaline make your skin thicker for a short while?

Or would it, I don't know, let you power through some pain to continue fighting and stop feeling the effects of tiredness.

>>54459329
>>54459114
Well then, >>54439407

>>54459106
The supernatural disciplines are limited to the Not-Paladin and the Not-Eldritch Knight/Ninja/Monk and assorted supernaturally-inclined PrCs. I have no idea why the fuck you're bitching about classes that are explicitly called out as supernatural doing supernatural things.