Paladins - Smitebot or redeemer?

>>54365650
You go kill the god in that situation.

>>54365668
The thaumologist, and byu extension the paladin, only knows there's a curse that causes everything to die being held back by the thaumologist, not that there's a creator god who cast it in the first place. And the paladin only has the words of the thaumologist, the rogue and the cleric that the thaumologist is telling the truth.

No deicide for you until the pally finds out there is a creator god directly responsible for this.

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>>54365650
>Inb4 300 replies of shitposting anyway.

>>54365650
Why would a paladin trust the word of a evil cleric or chaotic rogue?

What is this thaumatologist doing wrong to even be considered for a smiting?

>>54365831
I think the best thing you could do, given that all the evidence is coming from dubious sources but there's no actual combat happening, is to kick this shit upstairs and commune with my god for an answer.

Considering this is supposedly a fate of the universe deal I'll know they're lying if my god doesn't answer me, because if this was really that important of a moment they'd be watching.

>>54365831

>Why would a paladin trust the word of a evil cleric or chaotic rogue?
That's precisely the point. He only has the words of the thaumatologist (unreliable, he could just talk out his ass to save himself), the rogue(chaotic, therefore unreliable unless proven otherwise) and the cleric(lawful but still evil, might twist the verdict to support his own ends) in support of the tahumatologist telling the truth.

>What is this thaumatologist doing wrong to even be considered for a smiting?
Depending on his immortality, either being an inherently evil creature, taking part in an evil ritual to turn immortal, or simply just because the creator god who no one knows doesn't like being told not to do something.

>>54365894
Reasonable. But let's presume something prevents this. The creator god blocks the comminication, there's something of equal importance but more bravado happening elsewhere and pulling all the divine attention elsewhere, etc... The paladin only has his code and morality to help solve this.

Depends on an oath.

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>>54365650
Nope.
The paladin is at full right to smite, because evil is a cosmic influential force active in the D&D universe out to fuck everything in the ass with lower planar outsiders easing you in to one of the three areas, and multiple energies and influential evil radiations that basically cause a whole number of horrid effects to wrack, twist and warp the body, mind and soul.

You know that shit from Roal Dhal's the Twits with the talk of Mrs Twit looking so ugly because she thought bad thoughts all the time, and if she didn't she'd be an all heavenly cottage granny?

Yeah, in D&D, that is pretty much fucking literal, alignment difference is a very big thing in D&D, and if one has an alignment spectrum as a subtype they're outright condemable as an option.

People tend to forget there are quotes in D&D source books which present Jozan, Cleric of Pelor as the biggest zealous prick you can imagine, despite him supposedly being the atypical good cleric, next to the time he was a Cleric of Gruumsh then a Vampire Lord by Heroes of Horror.

Effectively, Paladins and clerics have room for error, but they act within the ethos of their code and Church's conduct, "progressive thinking" is not- by any means something meant to be present, and there's a special fucking reason why you don't Redeem succubi, or at least because it's a rare event, because they're Tanri'ri, highly specialized fleshcrafted souls of people who were so vile no deity wanted them that ended up the in the Abyss, a place that is concentrated Chaotic Evil to the point where remotely making morally questionable choices there is enough to concentrate the energies present in the location to immediately turn you evil or kill you can turn you into a petitioner as larvae.

>>54365650
>the curse is effectively the creator god's reset button
Why doesn't he just wipe the universe then?

And besides, how would the paladin fall if everyone dies?

Dumb question.

>>54365650
Who is the paladin? What do they stand for? Why should the paladin believe the rogue or the cleric? What is actually happening with the individual characters and town? How was all of this discovered?
Especially because you're assuming generic DnD you have to go into how this organically comes up in play, otherwise you're just twiddling your dick.

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>>54365987
Their very being is a massive red flag, and that's why there's an Evil subtype, this actually connote the fact that their choices in life, behaviour and actions ALIGN themselves with evil as a force, but the subtype means they are a part of it, in other words, you are not smiting an evil individual if they have the Evil Subtype, you are SMITING A SMALL PIECE OF THE CONCEPT OF EVIL AS AN ACTIVE FORCE IN THE UNIVERSE ITSELF, and if that isn't connotation alone to justify it, just look into the likes of corruption, possession and reality wrinkles and such.

Removing the subtype helps, but they're still aligned to evil, in which case you burden the responsibilities of harboring an agent of evil as a force, which may be counterproductive to your goals as a paladin, oath, or association to a higher power

>>54365934
Considering the information I have, then, I try to kill him. The rogue and the cleric probably try to stop me. As a player I know they're right so I don't fight them optimally. This increase the chance that they're able to subdue or kill me. The plot's probably more interesting if I don't kill this guy right here.

>>54365650
>Let's at least try to get this set straight.
Ah there is your problem.

>Presume generic DnD clone.
In D&D the generic paladin...;
The one that is in the Core that does not follow a god, they follow their his own beliefs and own code. Which it even says is vastly different in between each paladins.

One that does follow a god follow the god's code. and Gods are CRAZY, and Crazy different.
>There is a God Heironeous (lawful Good) and he is A Ok with mass killing and slaughter so long as you can justify is somehow. Anyhow. Usually 'For my country' will do. - See Greyhawk setting, not generic book.

4e (Leave edition wars outside, just talking a little lore here for sake of thread) Paladins are imbued with part of a gods divine essence. No requirement just if they god liked the guy or not- 'Here have power'. THEN if the paladin turns stag and goes evil and crazy he gets to KEEP the power. No falling in points-of-light.

So like...
>Presume generic DnD clone.
Is also too widely different, because now you have to define what a "Generic clone" is. Long and short as always as the DM have to arbitrate it.

>>54365650
Why the fuck doesn't the paladin have a decent amount invested into sense motive?

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>>54366016
But to put it more bluntly, you are completely at option to attempt the redemption and redirection of a malformed soul of a n ex-male/female/hermaphrodite/other's soul turned into an embodiement of a force that plagues all under it, and are not in the wrong for smiting and calling it a fucking day.

Just remember, that you may technically be redeeming someone who was a vile individual in life through their transformed body which exists as soul and body in one, re-purposed for the sole purpose of erasing all existence to a state of ammorality and lack of substance, at the behedst of creatures to fundamentally wrong, reality refuses to accept them in any way (Obrityhs).

The thing you want to redeem might have been a batshit insane transsexual serial killer, a cultist you killed, a child molestor, a necrophiliac necromancer who reanimated zombies with souls trapped inside to fuck whilst they write in agony and pain, etc...

Orcus, was a high level cleric/wizard that according to Gygax killed his entire native plane and has a library dedicated to gloating about it because he remembers his mortal life because he inhaled that Abyssal weather effect that makes Demons remember their previous lives, often getting jumbled thoughts from other sources.

More Importantly, Demons have no self-control and are actively enforced to represent the common stuff that makes up CE, you've got to literally treat them as children, children who can energy drain people to death, corrupt them, use evil spells as natural abilities with consequences, ruin holy places with desecration, and whom of engineered to cause people to fall to cardinal sins.

>>54366010
Paladin's a patron of a generic hero god whose only tenet is to be heroic and solve trouble. He has little reason to believe either other than that he's travelled with them thus far and roughly knows how thay are. Both rogue and cleric don't want the universe to end and have discern lies, which showed them the thaumatologist is speaking the truth. Creator god wants to reset the universe, but is blocked by the other gods from doing it directly. (hi, >>54366003. That's what i was asking. Does the pally fall? You decided he doesn't.) Town is in support of him, since he's the thaumatologist and "our guy" and is trying to do something. For further boost, he got the curse's burden off the old guy's shoulder so he could sleep away peacefully instead of becoming a ghostly wraith, so that counts for something. As for how it was discovered, paladin saw the thaumatologist carrying a heuge flask of poisonous material, detected evil, thaumatologist pinged as evil, and then the paladin went to smite before the thaumatologist begged for his life and told his story under threat of smiting.

>>54365650

The main quest is, if this guy is doing all this selfless shit, why is he still pinging as evil (assuming he's not a lich)?

As a Lich, he's full on evil. That's part of being a Lich. You can't be a good Lich, though you can be good as a different form of intelligent undead.

This is pretty much an impossible scenario to create as far as I can tell. A person who selflessly curses himself isn't evil, while an evil Lich wouldn't selflessly curse himself.

>>54366126
Presume the lich template has it's alignment as evil, but the ritual itself does nothing to forcibly alter the guy's alignment. So even if someone became a lich, assuming they didn't do the ritual but just stumbled upo it without knowing what was going on, is he still evil by default even if he dedicates his life to righting wrongs?

As for why he pings evil, outside of lichdom or evil rituals the creator god just decrees him evil because he's stopping him from indirectly resetting the universe via loophole in the other gods preventing him from doing it directly

>>54366170

Liches historically have to literally kill babies in order to become a lich, and IIRC Liches are Always Evil. My interpretation of being Always Evil would be that you could do 'good' things for your own benefit, truly selfless actions are out of the question. If you're changing the definition of Lich from 'baby killer' to some other kind of intelligent undead, then he is not necessarily evil.

If you're a paladin that's specifically serving the Creator God, and the Creator God is pinging him as evil because the dude is stopping something said Creator God wants to happen, then the Paladin would have every right to smite the guy. If he doesn't serve the Creator God, then he should do whatever he thinks his own god would want him to do. If he doesn't serve a god, then it's up to his own morals.

>>54365650

I cast Zone of Truth and have him willingly fail the save. 5e's version tells you whether the creature succeeds or fails.

>>54366089
Because the cleric took care of that.
>>54366082
Okay, i'll elaborate the example a bit.

The setting is a generic DnD clone deriving from we'll say 4E with assorted nonsense pulled from the other editions, in such a way as to make a rough amalgamate of DnD and call it something else. Simplified DnD.

A group of Neutral Good Paladin of Loto with Detect Evil, a Chaotic Neutral Rogue with Discern Lies and a Lawful Evil Cleric of Corvo with Sense Motive arrive in a town. There, the paladin sees a thaumologist carrying a large basket bottle full of soulwater, an extremely potent poison and a decent solvent usually only found on assassins who really want their mark dead. In suspicion, the paladin casts Detect Evil, and lo and behold, the thaumologist pings. Before the paladin has a chance to smite him, however, the thaumologist explains that he's found out about a curse which will destroy the world and kill off any life in it if the curse is tripped. He states that he took the burden of the curse from the old man two weeks before his death of old age, and now only his death can trigger the curse. To add further failsafes, he's prevented himself from aging, although he had to go through a rather questionable ritual involving several angels worth of blood and at least two lolis, but at no point did the ritual alter his alignment, and the cleric at the church just down the road can testify. After his story has ended, the rogue discerns lies and finds he spoke the truth, while the cleric comes to the same sincere conclusion with sense motive. Neither want the world to be destroyed, and they relay the information to the paladin, who is admittedly just a little suspicious of whether or not the two speak the truth.

cont

>>54368492
cont

An attempted communion later, Loto, whose only tenet is to right wrongs say that he can't really give a straight answer, something elseis in the way, and Corvo, the god of vengeance refuses to answer and says that this Edgardo guy is far more interesting than some nerd, while the town church's god doesn't even pick up. Unbeknownst to any of the four, or the town who supports the thaumologist, the curse was laid by a creator god as a way of circumventing the other gods and resetting the universe to start over. The other gods believe his plans were foiled by physically blocking him from resetting and know nothing about this indirect method. The reason only some monks on the opposite side of the world know for why the thaumologist pings as evil is that the creator god designated him as evil for getting in the way of his reset button.

>>54365650
The paladin suffers terminal existence failure from me getting fed up with "paladin falls" bullshit and overcomplexity, and leaving the campaign.

>>54365650
Source on the topic image? Kinda reminds me of vanillaware

>>54368821
It's from Dragon Blaze. I guess it's some sort of...mobile not!Dragon's Crown?