Is Westeros a good setting?

>>54283000
I actually think it's a great setting, though this was only after reading "A World of Ice and Fire."

>>54283000
It's reasonably well built. Everything is unique enough to be interesting but familiar enough to be accessible. There's a good amount of depth to most regions between the histories of the houses, but you're not going to gimp yourself by not having it memorized.

>>54283023

Yeah, pretty damn good.

The biggest strike against it will be if GRRM never finishes the series.

>>54283000
Yes, absolutely.

>>54283334
It's not really a problem that he'll never finish it because the setting is great as it is right now. It'll suck a bit when the show finishes it but we'll always be able to shrug off the shitty parts as stuff that was just invented for the show so it "doesn't really count."

>>54283000

No. Here's your (you).

>>54283000
There are a lot of problems with it, scale being completely fucked is the biggest, but the setting is pretty good for the most part.

>>54283377

Yeah but without a finished book series, it'll trail off and on 20 years the whole thing will be yet another fantasy also ran. Still a good world, but not really a classic and interest will fade over time.

>>54283000
Of course. Nobody would even disagree with you before Game of Thrones was released and contrarians started hating it.

>>54283000
I would like it more if the scope was limited to Westeros.

Don't get me wrong, Essos has cool stuff. The cooler stuff comes from there. But, the way it's written, so stereotypically orientalistic, it works better as "those other weird guys". Keep it mysterious, keep it as the source for colorful and weird dudes that it was for much of the series outside Daenerys chapters.

I think that Martin ruins it a little more every time he tries to give more details about them.

>>54283432
>you have to be contrarian to hate the later books or the tv show
wew

>>54283466
>implying Pieman wasn't based
>not wanting to see Stannis BTFO Ramsay

File: Mance Rayder.jpg (177KB, 826x750px) Image search: [Google]

177KB, 826x750px

Since this is an ASOIAF thread...
Thoughts on this guy? There's a reason he's alive and in Winterfell in the books, and there's a reason GRRM introduced this whole subplot about glamour. What's the endgame for Mance Rayder?

>>54283763
happy ever after ending mance rayder becomes king of westeros and north of the wall becomes another kingdom with the wall being like hadrian's motherfucking wall and the wildling land fucking scotland full of cunts wanting independence after they get 'civilized' by the niggers south of them

>>54283000
It's certainly a fun setting for noble squabbles and related shenanigans.

>>54283058
>good amount of depth
Yeah a continent the size of South America that only has one language, two religions and a handful of ethnicities is a lot of depth. The one spoken language is just english and is called fucking Common. The "religion" of the old gods is just a list of taboos. The Church of the Seven can't even be called a parody of the Catholic Church because it's so poorly defined, a average person on the street could make a more developed Fantasy Catholic Church. This is your idea of deep worldbuilding?

Wait I thought /tg/ hates ASOIAF, were all the other threads calling GRRM a hack just contrarians?

No.

>>54283000
Maybe. I'd need to learn more about their tax plans.

>>54284142
>only has one language, two religions and a handful of ethnicities
Err.. you just defined South America

What are you, some sort of assblasted cuck who is mad that there aren't enough negroes in Westeros?

>>54284142
>two religions
Drowned God where?

>>54283000
No.

Because GRRM is a hack.

>>54284890
You know nothing about South America, apparently.

>>54284890
South America has several minor languages and at least two major languages: Spanish and Portuguese.

>>54283000
The books were a bit tiresome and forgettable for me, but that's just me. I still enjoyed them although I'm not waiting for the next one. Never bothered with the TV series.

It is more worldbuilt than the average group would need in a single campaign and our players are likely to know it well. That can be very hard to have.

The wiki tells of some cooler things about the setting, which are united into some kind of traveler's chronicle. Thing is, like the Wall, these cooler things are mostly real life stuff with a twist or BIGGER AND BETTER! The conveniency of Westeros is having them all together and looking fresh instead of reading a lot and thinking your own.

I personally wouldn't use the setting itself for an adventure or a campaign. If I did, I wouldn't focus so much on the negative as the books do, what might anull the appeal it has for potential players.

The theme, of noble houses fighting for a crown, looks more entertaining than the setting itself. I recall an adaptation to have PCs be the houses themselves which was quite good, but it was based on an obscure brazilian rpg system. If anyone is interested: http://rpgista.com.br/2012/03/28/guerra-dos-tronos-3dt/

>>54284890
>>only has one language
>Err.. you just defined South America

Tu tem certeza disso magrão?

>>54283000
It's set on the world of Planetos, has millennia of medieval stasis, and features lots of rape. Sure sounds like a good setting.

>>54284142
>forgetting about the drowned god
Only one language is lame though

>>54284890
Modern South America is majority Portuguese speaking, with Spanish in second. Suriname speaks Dutch, English in Guyana and French in French Guiana.

That's without counting the other official but minority languages.

>>54284916
>second rate vikings worshipping a second rate cthulu rip off

who cares

>>54285162
t. Storm God

>>54283731
>not wanting to see Stannis BTFO Ramsay
They're both already dead??

>>54283000
I have to say that it's not good, way too complicated. It's funny because I love Martin's writing, he may genuinely be the best writer working in the fantasy genre. But his world is too overcomplicated.

>>54285224
>World too complicated

Is this bait? This is bait, right?

>>54285239
Using the term "bait" should be punished by head crushing with bare hands.

>>54285222
In the show

>>54285224
Are you retarded? What exactly makes his world good? And the problems in world-building aren't really because of complexity, it's because nothing fucking makes sense and people don't react to things in a realistic and logical manner.

>Okay, so like, the planet is far away from its star or something, seasons last a REALLY long time, years of summer, followed by years of winter.
>Ok, even assuming that a more or less medieval society can make agriculture work in a place like this, why the fuck does NOBODY prepare for it?
>Winter is coming, and nobody stores food for winter without farsighted lords commanding the idiot peasants from selling their harvest.

>The Dothraki are feared, quasi Mongols who can pillage and burn half the continent of Essos, and are dangerous enough that if they can get across to Westeros, their victory over the Sven Kingdoms is all but assured.
>Lose to the Unsullied because they explicitly are too proud to attack a phalanx in wide open grasslands in any manner other than head on and get slaughtered by their superior arms, armor, and discipline.

>This is a gritty, nasty settings. Nice guys ALWAYS finish last, and if you're not plotting the downfall of your neighbor/rival, you can be assured that he's plotting yours.
>But we'll still idolize chivalry and teach our kids to act out of an Arthurian romance, because those are the values that such a society will stick with.

>We spend a fair amount of time in a place called the RIVERLANDS because there are lots of RIVERS
>But no bridges, that would just be stupid.

>>54284916
>let me take a real world ritual and make it completely retarded.
GRRM in a nutshell.

>>54285439
Dude, I don't want to read your entire post, not least of all because your second sentence is
>What exactly makes his world good?
and I said explicitly that I don't think his world is good.

>>54285588
Oh, I'm sorry, I made a mistake there. What makes his writing good?

>>54285641
His language is pretty and his descriptions are engaging

>>54285224
Why do you think the setting is too complicated?

>>54285669
>Sunset found her squatting in the grass, groaning. Every stool was looser than the one before, and smelled fouler. By the time the moon came up she was shitting brown water. The more she drank, the more she shat, but the more she shat, the thirstier she grew, and her thirst sent her crawling to the stream to suck up more water.

>>54285747
Martin has been known for shameless fetish inserts before ASOIAF

>>54285740
Countless plotlines, literal hordes of minor characters, political system worse than Switzerland, I just don't want to keep this all in my head at all times.

>>54283000
Depends on the setting

>>54285439
It is heavily implied that the seasons are due to magic and entirely unpredictable. In addition, the people usually do prepare for winter without much issue, but the land has been buttfucked by literal years of war and what few peasants remain in what few fields are not ash can't feed the entire realm for a winter that will last a random number of years. The rest of your points are absolutely correct, but this at least is actually explained in setting.

>>54286109
>for a winter that will last a random number of years

Winters are typically equal to or slightly longer than the previous summer, which means the incoming winter will be AT LEAST 11 years.

>>54286161
That is explained explicitly by a maester in the books as peasants´s superstition. A long summer doesn´t guarantee a long winter. Also, if seasons are caused by the winds of magic or something like that, the arrival of Dany´s dragons, beings that have powered up with their birth all the magic in the setting, the lenght of the winter will probably be altered (for good or bad) as well.

>>54284930
>>54284974

As someone from Latino America I can tell you that most native languages are dying. Of course my country may be a special case since we kill most of natives early on making their absorption and submission much easier.

>>54285669

Yeah, it engages your gag reflex.

>>54283000
I hate how westeros looks like a long rectangle. Landmasses don't look like that going north to south.

File: How GRRM sees the world.png (76KB, 1034x167px) Image search: [Google]

76KB, 1034x167px

>>54283000

>>54283000
as a setting it's solid but it doesn't lend itself to anything special without the distinct war of the roses style drama and grrm's particularly likable cast of characters. The setting itself isn't "bad" but it's also mostly beside the point.

>>54285439

Think the Dothraki are just paid off by the Free Cities because it's cheaper and less disruptive to trade than a war. They don't even wear armour and them even making it to Westeros let alone winning some sort of war is laughable.

They're what idiots think the mongols were, guys that rode horses with bows, the ultimate weapon.

>>54287123
Don't forget the unsullied, they get castrated before puberty and never reach their full physical capabilities. It's an army of malnourished manlets.

>>54287123
>They're what idiots think the mongols were
Very much this. The Dothraki are believable as a threat but not as the invincible horde they are portrayed as.

>>54284890
As someone that also comes from America do Sul, you clearly don't know shit about it

>>54283000
absolutely not

File: maxresdefault.jpg (83KB, 1280x720px) Image search: [Google]

83KB, 1280x720px

How about we create a house for fun /tg/? Let's get a roll of 3d6 for our starting realm.

>>54288053
why would we do that? The setting sucks. Might as well do it in real life.

Rolled 4, 5, 2 = 11 (3d6)

>>54288053
Hell yeah.

>>54288101
Shut your mouth, last time I got House Milquetoast out of this, which I have since transplanted into pretty much every medieval setting I run.

>>54288147
>last time I got House Milquetoast out of this
Very interesting...except it isn't.

>>54288181
I appreciate a house that does nothing but bake bread and be ignored in a setting rife with political intrigue. It makes for an interesting story when they eventually do get involved.

>>54288101
>i do not like thing
>please cease doing thing

>>54288245
Its also SO RANDUMB XD, memes don't belong in play pretend.

File: Westeros.png (5MB, 3422x1014px) Image search: [Google]

5MB, 3422x1014px

>>54286874

>>54288277
>a noble house that bases it's land's economy on baking bread in the region known as the breadbasket of westeros
>randumb

>>54288277
>memes don't belong in play pretend

I have a feeling you've never actually played a roleplaying game before.

>>54283023
I like how pulpy the whole world seems after reading through World. It adds tons of weird tidbits and outlandish stuff.

>>54288362
>he has a meme group
Made me reply to you in pity

>>54288380
I realize you're new to this hobby, but trying too hard to fit in isn't a great idea.

>>54288414
Either one fits or doesn't. If you think /tg/ is for meme shit, then you should go back to /pol/, where you belong.

>>54288147
11= Mountains of the Moon
Liege: Jon Arryn

Next we need 7d6 rolls 7 times for our starting resources.

Defense, Influence, Lands, Law, Population, Power, and Wealth.

Rolled 5, 6, 1, 3, 5, 6, 4 = 30 (7d6)

>>54288443
>invoking /pol/ for no reason
>>54288471

>>54288488
Defense: 30+20= 50

Excellent defenses with man-made fortifications likely combined with defensive terrain.

>>54288443
>REEEEEEEEEEEEEE /pol/ REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

I guarantee you haven't been here since before 2009.

Rolled 6, 2, 1, 1, 6, 1, 5 = 22 (7d6)

>>54288471
Rollan'

>>54288443
XD

>>54288519
That was eight years ago anon. There are people here who could have kids and a house who weren't allowed to post here eight years ago.

>>54288543
Not that I support people getting triggered, just saying that invoking specific years doesn't really work anymore.

>>54288523
Influence 22+10=32

Maximum Lords status 4. A minor house. Examples include House Clegane, Payne, and Karstark.

>>54288519
I knew you were retarded, thanks for proving it though.

You will never be part of /tg/

>>54283000

You mean "Is the 1983 D&D setting BIRTHRIGHT a good setting?".

Rolled 5, 2, 3, 1, 5, 1, 5 = 22 (7d6)

>>54288471
I hope we're terrible.

>>54288566
Hey that's not bad.

Rolled 4, 6, 5, 6, 3, 3, 2 = 29 (7d6)

>>54288566

>>54288581
I hear it gave AD&D rules on how to reign over kingdoms so that's good.

>>54288597
Lands: 22-5=17

A small stretch of land, about the size of a single small island or small portion of a larger island, or a large city and immediate environs, such as House Mormont.

Law: 29-10 = 19

Lawlessness and banditry are a problem along the fringes of your lands.

Rolled 3, 1, 2, 5, 1, 1, 4 = 17 (7d6)

>>54288746

Rolled 5, 5, 2, 1, 1, 6, 3 = 23 (7d6)

>>54288746
A small island sounds nice.

>>54288819
Might be a valley or single mountain, given our region.

>>54288796

Population: 17-5 = 12

Small population but no single community larger than a small town.

Still need to determine power and wealth.

Rolled 6, 2, 4, 5, 2, 6, 1 = 26 (7d6)

>>54288872

>>54288870
>not a island with a mountain on it

>>54288819

Power: 23+0

A modest force of soldiers, including some trained troops.

>>54283432
>Of course. Nobody would even disagree with you before Game of Thrones was released and contrarians started hating it.

But before the TV show came out, the only time I ever saw the series mentioned on /tg/ was "that lame fantasy series by that fat fuck with a rape fetish".

Very few people on /tg/ seemed to have anything good to say about it before the show.

Wealth: 26+0

Common, your family has enough to get by.

>>54288888
Quints confirm mountain island.

>>54288881
>>54288937

With that we have a rough outline of our house we also get to roll 3d6 and split each result to a resource of our choosing no resource can benefit from a roll twice.

>>54289071

Rolled 5, 3, 6 = 14 (3d6)

>>54289173
>>54289071
Fucked that one up.

Rolled 6 (1d6)

>>54289071
Population

>>54289202
>>54289193
6 in Pop how about our 5 and 3?

>>54289245
5 to power and 3 to lands?

>>54289498
house.

Region: Mountains of the Moon
Liege: Jon Arryn

Defense: 50
Excellent defenses with man-made fortifications likely combined with defensive terrain.

Influence: 32

Maximum Lords status 4. A minor house. Examples include House Clegane, Payne, and Karstark.

Lands: 20

A small stretch of land, about the size of a single small island or small portion of a larger island, or a large city and immediate environs, such as House Mormont.

Law: 19

Lawlessness and banditry are a problem along the fringes of your lands.

Population: 12

Small population but no single community larger than a small town.

Still need to determine power and wealth.

Power: 28

A modest force of soldiers, including some trained troops.

Wealth: 26

Common, your family has enough to get by.
Now with that out of the way let's find out our houses history!

We need a 1d6 for the first founding to determine how old we are and another 1d6 roll for the number of major historical events that have occurred in our history

Rolled 3 (1d6)

>>54289604

Rolled 1 (1d6)

>>54289604

>>54289655
We're an old house founded during the time of the Rhoynar Invasion.

For perspective a very old house is established during the Andal Invasion and an ancient house is traced back from to The Age of Heroes.

>>54289604
Can we have >>54289672 be age and >>54289655 be number of events?

>>54289672
Being an old house gives us a +1 to our number of major historical events which now makes it 2.

Historical events provide important developments in
your family’s history, either adding to your fortunes or diminishing
them.

Each event modifies your resources, increasing or decreasing
them by the indicated value. Roll 3d6 once for each historical event. Historical events can reduce a
resource to 0 but no lower.

The first historical event rolled describes the circumstances of your
house’s origins, defining what sort of event elevated your family to nobility

>>54289708
Works for me, we'll be an ancient house founded during the Age of heroes with 6 major historical events that have occured.

So we'll need a roll of 6d6

Rolled 2, 3, 4 = 9 (3d6)

>>54289751
Two historical events in 1000 + years is kinda sad.

>>54289775
6 3d6 rolls I mean

Rolled 6, 3, 5, 5, 6, 5 = 30 (6d6)

>>54289775

It's popular so I guess there's positives about it but it's so generic and has led a resurgence for DARK LOW FANTASY EVERYTHING IS SHIT stories which I hate. But goddamn it reading other works by GRRM you can tell he's a lot more creative, like this whole Universe he made with a wrathful God who's Old Testament as fuck or a world where the dead are used as menial labor, and big bulky space marines who are killed after they end their service because they can't handle civvie life. I especially liked how GRRM would write after he broke up with some girl because the moral would always be FUCK REAL GIRLS.

>>54289791
Let's use these as the first two 3d6 rolls.

>>54289786
First roll indicates we were founded based on a treacherous event.

Either you suffered the results of treachery or you were involved in
committing a treacherous act. In either case, the historical event stains
your family’s name. Should treachery be your first result, you gained
your house by means of some dark deed, possibly betraying another
lord or noble.

>>54289810
Second and third is fine.

14= Victory

You family achieved an important victory over their enemies.

Foes could
include ironmen reavers, a King-beyond-the-Wall, or a rival house.

In
any event, your family rose in prominence and power because of their
victory.

As an initial historical event roll, this victory was so great that
your family was raised to nobility.

16= Glory

A family wins glory through a military victory, personal achievement, or
by a great act of heroism.

Glory is similar to ascent, but it focuses on one
figure in your family’s past.

The result of this individual’s deeds advances
your family’s standing in the eyes of its peers.
Generally, glory as a first
historical event should imply that your house was formed as a reward
for the great acts of their founder.

Rolled 5, 6, 4 = 15 (3d6)

>>54289862

Rolled 1, 3, 2 = 6 (3d6)

>>54289862

>>54289891
Fuck.

Rolled 3, 1, 5 = 9 (3d6)

>>54289862

>>54289880
15= Villain

Your family produced a character of unspeakable cruelty and wickedness,
a villain whose name is still whispered with dread.

Such a character
might have committed terrible crimes in his home, killed guests under
his roof, or was simply just a bad person. A villain as a first roll usually
wins this position by dint of his evil, possibly murdering a rival and seizing
his lands or birthright.


>>54289891
6= Madness

Inbreeding, fell secrets, disease, or mental defects can produce derangement
and madness among any people of Westeros, including its rulers.

A madness historical event indicates that a particular figure suffered
from some insanity, producing unpredictable results, with positive or
negative outcomes.

Each resource increases by +6 and then decreases by
–2d6, producing a range of +4 to –6. If this was your first result, your
family was instead raised by an insane lord or king as appropriate to the
period of your first founding.

Looks like we'll be a house with a dark history

>>54284916
>>54285142

Don't some dornishmen also still worship an ancient rhoynar deity ?

>>54289980
Some of the Dornishmen worship the river that they live on as a legacy of the Rhoynish Mother Rhoyne faith of their ancient homeland.

>>54285439
>>This is a gritty, nasty settings. Nice guys ALWAYS finish last, and if you're not plotting the downfall of your neighbor/rival, you can be assured that he's plotting yours.
>>But we'll still idolize chivalry and teach our kids to act out of an Arthurian romance, because those are the values that such a society will stick with.

So, basically all of real world European history between the fall of Rome and the Renaissance?

>>54289939
9= Treachery yet again!

Just to recap;

Founding Event: Treachery


Either you suffered the results of treachery or you were involved in
committing a treacherous act. In either case, the historical event stains
your family’s name.

Should treachery be your first result, you gained
your house by means of some dark deed, possibly betraying another
lord or noble.

Victory

You family achieved an important victory over their enemies.

Foes could
include ironmen reavers, a King-beyond-the-Wall, or a rival house.

In
any event, your family rose in prominence and power because of their
victory.

Glory

A family wins glory through a military victory, personal achievement, or
by a great act of heroism.

Glory is similar to ascent, but it focuses on one
figure in your family’s past.

The result of this individual’s deeds advances
your family’s standing in the eyes of its peers.

Villain

Your family produced a character of unspeakable cruelty and wickedness,
a villain whose name is still whispered with dread.

Such a character
might have committed terrible crimes in his home, killed guests under
his roof, or was simply just a bad person. A villain as a first roll usually
wins this position by dint of his evil, possibly murdering a rival and seizing
his lands or birthright.

Madness

Inbreeding, fell secrets, disease, or mental defects can produce derangement
and madness among any people of Westeros, including its rulers.

A madness historical event indicates that a particular figure suffered
from some insanity, producing unpredictable results, with positive or
negative outcomes.

Each resource increases by +6 and then decreases by
–2d6, producing a range of +4 to –6.

Treachery (again)

I'll report back on how these event's have affected our resources, while I'm doing that how about you guys piece together our long dark history

>>54290037
Real world European medieval and renaissance history was not in fact the way Hollywood presents it, filled with dung, filth, and betrayal. Not that I'd want to live in it myself, but you do actually get good things happening, and people who constantly backstab their friends and liege-lords tend to actually die in very short order, unlike say, the Freys who get rewarded for their open breaching of hospitality norms that feudal societies rely on to keep the whole structure together.

Then you look at much more hand to mouth, dog-eat dog societies, like the various steppe nomads throughout history, or where you have endemic tribal warfare in say the Andes, and guess what? You DON'T have a chivalric ideal.

>>54290105
What the Frey's did is painted as exceptional and even the Lannister supporters are dubious of them at this point. This is commented on in both the books and the show. Walder Frey is widely accepted as untrustworthy and just a scumbag in general. In no way is he or the way his family acts treated as normal.

>>54290105
The Red Wedding was straight up lifted from 15th century Scottish history, though. It's a thing that actually happened.

>>54283000
I may be missing something, but how on earth do the Ironborn have anywhere near the level of power they do.

They had a collection of grey islands with poor soils, iron and a few other base metals which they seem in no hurry to work or trade, slaves who any actual work and motely collection of manly men with a chip on their combined shoulder.

Where do the boats come from? Sorry if I missed the description of the great forestries of Pyke, but it seems the most vital rescource for playing pirate is missing as potentially do other components. And they can hardly trade locally since with Greyjoy trying to get the Raid back in style only last decade no one on the entire coastAKA target zone is going to want to trade naval supplies to those nice Iron Men.

So not much trade, no where to raid nearby while Bobby B rules-are the IronMen scourges of the seas or uppity fishermen who dream of larping as vikings. Few warships, no naval combat experience,most sailors fishmen doing short to medium ventures.

File: 1486066891918.jpg (43KB, 609x480px) Image search: [Google]

43KB, 609x480px

I think I like ASOIAF and Westeros for the wrong reasons. I see it as dark, "realistic" fantasy where the pragmatic and cold hearted survive but which is going to turn into full blown heroic by the end because, once magic and the clear cut evil has returned to the world, clear-cut heroes will return once again to fight it. I feel like (or at least I hope that) in the end GRRM is going to subvert his own work by having what is good and righteous triumph against evil so that humanity may survive.

>>54290053
Ooh boy our mad ancestor really did a number on our population, here is where the house sits after our troubled past has been determined.

Region: Mountains of the Moon
Liege: Jon Arryn

Defense: 57
Extraordinary defenses with structures, walls, and terrain features that, when combined, make attacking this land very costly.

Influence: 31

Maximum Lords status 4. A minor house. Examples include House Clegane, Payne, and Karstark.

Lands: 15

A small stretch of land, about the size of a single small island or small portion of a larger island, or a large city and immediate environs, such as House Mormont.

Law: 10

Bandits, raiders, and other criminal bands are afoot in your
lands, causing mischief and trouble.

Population: 6

Thinly populated. Tiny settlements are
scattered throughout your lands.

Power: 47

A large force of diverse, trained, and competent soldiers.
You probably also have the services of a small navy as well.
Several banner houses are sworn to you.

Wealth: 26

Common, your family has enough to get by.

>>54290473
Seems to me like some mad bastard worked half our island to death to build his masterpiece castle.

>>54290397
He's stated that the ending is "bitter sweet", so I assume pretty much that is gonna happen but it'll also come with the rammifications of stuff like the Dragon Lords and their ilk coming back. It's the time of high adventures and dragons but it also now sucks even more to be a regular person because there are monsters and wizards running around.

>>54290473
Well, maybe we're just a single incredibly well defended valley. A pass maybe. Throughout our history we've leveraged this both to win great victories and earn glory, but also to cruelly and callously decide the fate of the innocent. Recently, the pass has only become more fortified. During Robert's Rebellion we were initially Targaryen loyalists, but when we saw which way the wind was blowing we switched sides. But not before letting a large group of Targaryen allied forces/peasants pass through one end of the valley. We then locked them in and slaughtered them while they were unaware.

>>54290105
>"William Crichton, 1st Lord Crichton"
>"In 1437 Crichton, as Keeper of Edinburgh, had control of the six-year-old James II and by 1439 had himself proclaimed Lord Chancellor of Scotland."
>"During the King's minority, Archibald Douglas, 5th Earl of Douglas was Regent. In 1440, after his death, Crichton and Sir Alexander Livingston invited the 16-year-old William Douglas, 6th Earl of Douglas and his brother to dinner in Edinburgh Castle, and murdered them, despite the young King's pleas for their lives."
Crichton stayed an important figure for the rest of his life, being Lord Chancellor until 1444, and then again from 1447 until his death in 1453.

>"After fruitless feuding with the Douglases, James II invited William Douglas, 8th Earl of Douglas to Stirling Castle in 1452 under the promise of safe conduct, but then the King accused the Earl of conspiracy."
>"Once there, King James demanded the dissolution of a league into which Douglas had entered with Alexander Lindsay, the 'Tiger' Earl of Crawford, and John of Islay. Upon Douglas's refusal, the king stabbed him as did the several men with the king, and Sir Patrick Gray, according to the Auchinleck Chronicle, "struck out his brains with a pole ax", and his body was thrown out of a window."

Sure, you generally don't want to break with hospitality norms and rules of safe conduct, but that isn't to say that there aren't opportunities when you can get away with it.

>>54290105
Events like the Red Wedding weren't unheard of back then. Vlad the Implier himself invited all the vassals and nobles who betrayed his father to a feast and had his guards kill them all.

That being said, you're right in that if you acted like a dick, you ended up with a dagger stuck between your ribs. Kings especially needed the support of their vassals to be kings and being obnoxious retards led to them being replaced quicksmart. Absolutism and the advanced stage of "divine right of kings" is more of a post-renaissance sort of affair.

>>54290616
>James II
He's the one that was revolted against and then had some Dutch nobility imported in his place right?

>>54290655
No, that's the other James II.

>>54290655
That James was two hundred years later you knob. He's talking about James II of Scotland who reigned for another eight years before being killed by an exploding cannon.

Also, notably, James the Second was a well liked ruler, especially among the common folk.

>>54289803
You make it sound like GRRM is an edgy teen in Santa's body.

File: benis.jpg (28KB, 600x459px) Image search: [Google]

28KB, 600x459px

>>54290758
He really is, considering the way he writes

>She was sopping wet when he entered her. “Damn you,” she said. “Damn you damn you damn you.” He sucked her nipples till she cried out half in pain and half in pleasure. Her cunt became the world.

>Men call me Darkstar, and I am of the night.

>The three men were erect. The sight of their arousal was arousing

>The ship groaned and growled beneath him like a constipated fat man straining to shit.

>>54290882
Don't forget Fat Pink Mast and Myrish Swamp.

>>54290894
And squatting in the grass

>>54290882
>>Men call me Darkstar, and I am of the night.
This one is forgivable, since Darkstar himself is an edgy cunt.

>>54290931
He's also talking to a child.

>>54290655
>>54290713
England and Scotland entered a Personal Union in 1603. Both titles still existed so how you describe the King depends on what hat we has on; King James VI in Scotland and King James I in England, or King James VI&I if you want to make a point.

>>54290655
This King James II is only valid in the Kingdom of England and the Kingdom of Ireland. Try the Scottish desk and ask for King James VII.

After the Act of Union 1707, the Crowns are formally united as one and regnal numbering uses the higher number. A future King James would be VIII for all the UK.

>>54290973
I don't understand what kind of point you're trying to make here. Like I'm honestly just confused.

>>54291065
Not him but I think he's trying to point out that the James II of Scotland who was involved in the Black Dinner is not the same James as the James the II of England

>>54290530
>bitter-sweet
>implying it won't be his self insert jon snow crying into daenerys tits over a couple of dead sibling even though he's the king of everything

>>54283000
Westeros is a really cool and interesting setting and it's a shame that the first few books and the entirety of the show focus almost exclusively on the least interesting parts of it.

>>54291092
Well yeah, but he seems to be correcting two other people who say the same thing.

Also, the guy wasn't originally talking about the Black Dinner. That happened twelve years previously to the guy getting chucked out a window.

>>54291148
Oh whoops, forgot he mentioned the Black Dinner in the first half of his post. My bad.

>>54284890
>South Americans only speak Spanish

HUEHUEHUE

>>54290342
Westeros isn't the world
Some uncle or third cousin might be dicking around in essos to get ships
Infact, if i rrember correctly euron got his ships through pirating

>>54291497
Right but trading and pirating requires you to already have ships. How did they get a seed fleet going on a bunch of barren shithole islands?

>>54290342
A bunch of the Ironborn Islands have trees. Great Wyk has them described in explicit detail. Harlaw probably also has decent forests.

But

>or uppity fishermen who dream of larping as vikings

Yes.

>>54291540
Maybe it's a barren shithole because of deforestation

File: 1423629655601.png (218KB, 529x383px) Image search: [Google]

218KB, 529x383px

>>54283000
Not great, but good enough.

Worldbuilding and Storytelling are two seperate skills that are neither mutually exclusive nor mutually inclusive. Strong worldbuilding and weak storytelling would be Tolkien for example.

GRRM is moderate at worldbuilding, and strong in storytelling.

>>54291619
This guy's got it

>>54291619
He runs into the problem of having a cool idea, but not beign able to execute it
Case in pint OPs pic

I think alot of the problems with the lore came from the world of ice and fire, before that a lot of the background was too deliberitely vague for people to quibble over that being said I think people are still mainly bitching because its popular in a way their favorite book series will never be.


also i have a lot of the rpg books and the world of ice and fire that i can try to post if anyone wants them

>>54288443
Listen here dipshit. Constantly talking about or mentioning /pol/ summons those fucktards. Only members of their shit pile talk about it outside of their dumpster and naming them makes them stick around to fish for (you)s.

Every time you mention them, they stay longer and draw more of their buddies in.

The drowned gos is literally the best religion in game of thrones
Even if it is just a viking analog, it is fairly unique
I could do without the generic valhalla though

>>54290228
>>54290616
>>54290632
So it's based on British history and its perception of medieval times.

>>54291619
>weak storytelling
>Tolkien
I want the contrarians to leave.
A deliberate decision to write LotR in the style of Nordic sagas does not mean his storytelling is weak.

File: Chronicle of Sorcery.pdf (5MB, 1x1px) Image search: [Google]

5MB, 1x1px

is there anyone who ever actually used the chronicle of sorcery splat for the rpg? because it feels like only half a book and it hasn't been expanded on in like years

>>54293055
bro, Tolkien is fucking trash

>>54285439
what is a year in their world anyway?

>>54293176
they can still count days man, and use the stars and constellations to tell when they've orbited the sun. that is if they judge a year that way. could use religious measurements instead

>>54293055
I wouldn't call calling Tolkien the ultimate example of master worldbuilding, and hack storytelling. Yes, he imitated a style that sacrifices compelling narrative to compensate for cultural/logistical barriers that don't exist anymore

>>54293162
I never said Tolkien is trash. I said he was bad at storytelling. He's a master worldbuilder. Having some strengths, and some weaknesses, and then choosing a style (as >>54293055 sort of pointed out) that capitalizes on your strengths, and accepts your weaknesses as par for the course is actually a fairly strong course of action. Play to your strength and minimize your weaknesses.

>>54293481
>>54293055
>I wouldn't call calling Tolkien the ultimate example of master worldbuilding, and hack storytelling [CONTRARIAN]

>>54290105

Freys are also disliked by oyher houses because their ascendency consisted on building the bridge instead of martial heroics.

>>54293481
> I said he was bad at storytelling.
Dude, have you ever actually LOOKED at the structure of LoTR? To actually juggle multiple plotlines while jumping in and out of chronological order? How he keeps track of what is going on when to simultaneously give the character's ground eye view, but leave it open for the reader to piece together waht's really happening, while not spelling it out? Remember that scene near the dead marshes where Gollum sees a Nazgul overhead and is sure it's coming for them? Add up the days since Amon hen, (which you can do, because Tolkien keeps track of time) and that's the guy sent to see what happened when Isengard fell.

Or, you know, why don't you look at the parellels between Eomer's interrogation of Aragorn and Co and Faramir's interrogation of Frodo and Sam; thematically, you get quite a bit of difference, especially when Lorien is concerned, Eomer being corrected about it, and Faramir correcting two people who had actually been there.

Or we can look at the divide between Manichean and Boethian evil, which he leaves very deliberately ambiguous, and perhaps perfectly exemplified when we see the Witch-King throw back his hood, nothingness (Boethian) but a nothing that clearly has some kind of substance, since it holds up a crown.

But no, he's a crap storyteller, because anon the magnificent thinks so.

https://youtu.be/m6swnio1HE4 Hggvgi

>>54285222
Only if you are a pleb

>>54285142
>Complaining about forgetting religion
>Then goes on in literally the next sentence to forget the old tongue and the language of the children

>>54288909
>But before the TV show came out, the only time I ever saw the series mentioned on /tg/ was "that lame fantasy series by that fat fuck with a rape fetish".
You really weren't paying attention then.

File: 1467440950071.jpg (50KB, 676x720px) Image search: [Google]

50KB, 676x720px

>>54285224
>I love Martin's writing, he may genuinely be the best writer working in the fantasy genre

>>54290882
And to think that people actually like this garbage.

File: 1459875758909.jpg (9KB, 240x200px) Image search: [Google]

9KB, 240x200px

>>54291619
>Strong worldbuilding and weak storytelling would be Tolkien for example.
>GRRM is moderate at worldbuilding, and strong in storytelling.

File: Uh Yeah.gif (203KB, 220x220px) Image search: [Google]

203KB, 220x220px

>>54295296
>Tolkien makes brilliant and fully fleshed out worlds, but can be a drudge to read.
>GRRM has a mostly fleshed out world that mostly serves to tell extremely entertaining stories that are difficult-if-not-impossible to put down.

Literary quality is also a quality that's neither mutually inclusive nor mutually exclusive with worldbuilding and storytelling. Tolkien clearly has the stronger literary quality, which you may be mistaking for storytelling.

Think of it this way, if we could assign stats to writers like we do to characters, three of the stats would be

>Literary Quality: 2-18
>Storytelling: 2-18
>Worldbuilding: 2-18

Tolkien might be something like
>Literary Quality: 16
>Storytelling: 3 (-2 from the linguistics professor template)
>Worldbuilding: 20 (+2 from the linguistics professor template)

While GRRM might be something like
>Literary Quality: 5 (-2 from the Fat New-Jersey Fuck template)
>Storytelling: 17 (+2 from the Fat New-Jersey Fuck Template)
>Worldbuilding: 10

>>54283000
Westeros seems alright. Good, indepth, largely consistent fluff. Plenty of space for different themes from political fiction to regular "explore dangerous places, slay dangerous monsters, retrieve valuable loot" fare.

>>54292733
If you're still around, I would love for you to post them.

>>54288313
>if I cut off half of it, it's not a LONG rectangle anymore.

>>54283000
No. There is no such thing as a good setting.

>>54294128
You've outlined very well how he's organized. He's CLEARLY organized. A story can be carefully organized without being compelling to read.

>>54296161
LOTR is a perfectly crafted story that people will be reading a hundred years from now.
ASoIaF is a tangled ball of plot tumors that GRRM will never finish and will be forgotten when the show is finished.

>>54298706
You've not offered anything except "due poor storytelling lol" to indicate he's a bad storyteller, or that it's not "compelling to read".

>>54283000
Good for what?

>>54298802
So is the Iliad, but that doesn't mean it's enjoyable to read, or even offers the reader any reason to keep reading.

ASoIaF is not quality, and I've not argued that. It does, however, entertain, and consistently make continuing to read/watch an inherently rewarding experience.

The value of literature can't be measured on a single spectrum, and a lot of older literature, and literature written by super-genius autistic-savant linguistics professors, suffers from the issue that it does not bother to try and entertain the reader, nor give the reader any reason to keep reading through the boring parts (or more specifically not having boring parts.) This makes sense, because most of this comes from when the novel as a literary form was... well... novel (hence the term.) People had long winters where they couldn't do shit, but literacy was up, and so the ability to eat up large amounts of time was extremely valuable. If anything, filling up pages upon pages with dry description was a boon, because while it did nothing to entertain the reader, it ate up more time, and was more interresting than watching the English snow fall. Contrast that to today, where there is constant competition for how to spend your time, and constant stimulation, large tracts of boring extraneous details that do not serve to drive the story forward hurt a piece of literature.

>>54298831
He is a bad storyteller because he does not focus on the most interresting parts of the story, but instead needlessly fills up the overwhelming majority of the word-space with unimportant details and literal lists. As I've explained above, this was once a boon, due to the nature and purpose of literature during a particular time in history. Now, however, all I can think when reading anything Tolkien is "the is no reason for this to be a novel. It could have been a Novella, or even a short-story collection, and lost literally nothing other than time spent on "the boring parts."

>>54298831
Not the guy you're responding to. There are more criteria for storytelling than just organization. There's pacing, character development, and novelty, among other things. I read The Hobbit and enjoyed it, but when I tried to read Lord of the Rings I got a third of the way through and gave up because I was bored off my ass. The reasons for Frodo hauling ass out of the shire were sketchy at the beginning, the interactions between the characters were disjointed, and there was so much fucking detail given to shit I didn't care about. I was confused as to why the book wasn't considerably smaller. I wasn't rooting for any of the characters.

Am I the only one that is bothered that a bunch of hunter-gatherers from a frozen wasteland are able to muster and maintain a gigantic army? Where did they even get that many people from?

>>54299067
>He is a bad storyteller because he does not focus on the most interresting parts of the story, but instead needlessly fills up the overwhelming majority of the word-space with unimportant details and literal lists.
But this is factually wrong. He spends almost the entire focus of his writing (for LoTR anyway, not the rest of the stuff) on the Hobbits, which are an interesting part of the story, and the part that connects the archaism to the modern reader.

>Now, however, all I can think when reading anything Tolkien is "the is no reason for this to be a novel.
Lord of the Rhingsisn't a novel. Don't use terms of art when you have no idea what they mean.

> It could have been a Novella, or even a short-story collection, and lost literally nothing other than time spent on "the boring parts."
In translation: waah, it's too long? And seriously, what boring parts? That sounds suspiciously like you're using your personal opinions for what is and isn't interesting as some sort of objective guide for what is and isn't proper storytelling technique.

>Glance at other part of the post
>Thinks the Iliad isn't good
>Thinks that LoTR doesn't entertain the reader.
>Thinks that he's spending too much page count on description.
>While praising ASOIF, presumably for getting its entertainment priorities right, while GRRM offers enormously more detailed descriptions of things that matter even less, like John Snow's discovery of cunnilingus.

>>54299463
> There's pacing, character development, and novelty, among other things.
And I would argue all three are done very well. Since you've offered zero criteria, all I've got left is your personal opinion. What makes that more or less authoritative than anyone else's personal opinion?

>The reasons for Frodo hauling ass out of the shire were sketchy at the beginning,
"Go, or you will be murdered" is sketchy?

> the interactions between the characters were disjointed,
I fail to see how. You can often tell with a single sentence a character's social standing, level of education, and viewpoint. About the only exception to this is Aragorn, because he's so mimetic when talking to other people.


>and there was so much fucking detail given to shit I didn't care about
And if someone did care about the stuff you found boring?

>>54283000
Well you would have very little agency within the grounding of the books due to a lack of 'readily available' magic for use and the general theme of anyone not noble being killed and shit on while everyone who is noble has better things to do.

>>54284142
+ Language: lack of language diversity is a fair point, as in a traditional 'medieval setting every village and region has a different dialect especially without standardised education, modern 'French' was only spoken around Paris before the 1880s. Essos is far richer for language, but are still entrenched in old Valayrian dialects, and helps to have characters on the same language page.
+ Religion: The Old gods are only seem like a non starter because humans have forgotten all the significance of the Weirwood-net (blood sacrifice/ neural network). The Church of the Seven is a non-force during the books because it had already had its institutional back broken by the Targaryans (with the High Septon being a state sponsored Yes Man) due to several bloody confrontations and is only now beginning to revitalize and remilitarize. Religion in Westeros is particularly lacking in variety compared to Essos as it has been beaten back by the Andels (who brought the Seven).

>>54299967
Thing is, Westeros is an empire, and has been so for a while. Depending on how centralized it is, it would make sense for much of the cultural/linguistic diversity to go away.

>>54300051
Westeros was invaded by the equivalent of the anglo-saxons and they more or less assimilated the first men, even if the idenity is still strong in the north, because the andals had writing and the first men didn't. I think it's acceptable for there to be one language in this case, though I think there should be regional dialects.

>>54299526
>translation: waah it's too long
There's a difference between too much length, and too high a percentage spent on boring parts.>>54299526
>Thinks that he's spending too much page count on description.
>While praising ASOIF, presumably for getting its entertainment priorities right, while GRRM offers enormously more detailed descriptions of things that matter even less, like John Snow's discovery of cunnilingus.
What can I say: sex is entertaining enough to warrant page-count, while wasteful landscapes and literal geneology lists aren't.

The content in the middle-earth setting is good, yes, but please tell me a single thing you can get from the original text that you can't get from a Middle-Earth Wiki, and faster, and with more self-direction, and with less focus on boring parts. Granted, it's a testament to his world-building ability that the content is enough that wiki-surfing the setting is independently entertaining, but the dry text that someone had to painfully trudge through to create that wiki is painful
>But anon, he was imitating [x ancient style]
and that style is also boring, and often obfuscating interesting content underneath layers of unnecessary monotony.
>Thinks the Iliad isn't good
No, I said the Iliad isn't fun to read. It's yet another instance where the content is good, but the style and medium are monotonous: almost intentionally so.

>>54285747
Mate, shes dying of fucking dysentery, what do you want?

>>54283000
Why is Dorne so shit?

>>54292819

Hello I am le evil pol man here to ruins your echo chamber with mein opinionion

>>54300125
>There's a difference between too much length, and too high a percentage spent on boring parts.
And since again, you've offered nothing other than your own personal preferences for what constitutes a "boring part", you have an opinion that many would be inclined to disagree with, not an evaluation.

>What can I say: sex is entertaining enough to warrant page-count, while wasteful landscapes and literal geneology lists aren't.
First off, when do you see extended genealogy lists or landscape descriptions longer than the ones in ASOIF in LOTR? Secondly, again, who died and made you the arbiter of what is entertaining writing or not?

> please tell me a single thing you can get from the original text that you can't get from a Middle-Earth Wiki, and faster, and with more self-direction,
Conversational styles are very varied and very detailed in LoTR; you can very clearly tell what sort of culture and class a given speaker has from how he talks. Aragorn, if you pay close attention to his dialogue, can slip from mode to mode and "culture" to culture, mimicking the diction of Barliaman, Boromir, and Hama when talking to each, despite three very disparate styles. I've never seen that in a LoTR wiki.

>and with less focus on boring parts
Again, come up with an objective definition of "boring parts". I'll wait.

>But anon, he was imitating [x ancient style]
I never said nor implied this. Lord of the Rings is quintessentially a modern work, with very modern notions on things like the nature of evil and the corruption of power. He was not imitating ancient styles, and a work of this sort is distinctly 20th century.

>>54300125

>No, I said the Iliad isn't fun to read.
And again, I'll say you're wrong. What makes your opinion better than mine?

> but the style and medium are monotonous: almost intentionally so.
I assume you have a degree in Homeric Greek that you can actually assess the style and medium rather than relying on whichever translator decided for you? Tell me, what do you think of the link between the use of the word μῆνιν, only used to describe both Zeus and Achilles? Is it meant to imply that Achilles's wrath can change the tides of fate, or is it meant to show a linkage between the pre-eminent mortal and the pre-eminant god?

>>54283000
If LOTR spawned countless shallow rip offs with Evil Overlords bent on world domination behind every bush, will the success of the "American Tolkien" and ASOIAF mean that the next wave of fantasy literature will be substantially influenced by the series for better or worse.

Has this infact already begun?

>>54296357
https://www.mediafire.com/folder/ex1p9k28xto34/asoiaf

i'll keep those up for a few days

>>54283000
it certainly beats Faerun which isnt saying much

>>54299067
I stopped reading part way through book 2. Checkmate.

>>54299524
GRRM's ass

>>54299524
Don't forget how with their stone/bronze age tech, they can sit around at the bottom of a 700 foot tall wall and shoot arrows to kill armored men on the top of it.

>>54301402
>the "American Tolkien"

Doesn't deserve to be in the same room, let alone compared by name.

>>54299524
the area beyond the wall is really big and has been in perpetual summer for the last 15 years. look up russia in the summer to see what most of it is like. thats more than enough time for very large population booms. also that was less an army and more the migration of basically every single person above the wall.

>>54283000
the big problem with the whole stopping aegon was using a letter, instead of pointing out that the targ's can hardly stand to lose another dragon and remain in control.

>>54301468
Many thanks friend

File: Westeros-North.jpg (811KB, 1776x2673px) Image search: [Google]

811KB, 1776x2673px

>>54284142
>the Seven Kingdoms = South America

Westeros isn't just the Seven Kingdoms, it also has the lands beyond the Wall and the Land of Always Winter which are a vast land in the North. The bulk of Westeros is actually the frozen wasteland in the North.
To better illustrate this, iimage South America with its northern parts being placed at the North Pole, Brazil being mostly an arctic area an only the Southern Cone actually being inhabited and having a warm climate.

Westeros has the Free Folk, Northmen, Ironborn, Vale mountain clans, Dornishmen and the Southrons.
All these have their regional subgroups which sometimes are very distinct.
Free Folk have Hornfoots, Thenns, Ice-river clans..., tribes with very different cultures that often hate each other.
You have Salty, Sandy and Stony Dornishmen.
The Andal lands between the Neck and the Red mountains were the Common tongues originates are the most homogenous and that's because of better communication and the common political rule of the last centuries, but even here there's various accents and regional identities.

So it's not that simple.

>>54288488
>invoking /pol/ for no reason
I bet that fucker think autist posting cartoon frogs count as a hatecrime.

>>54302607
does anyone know the location of the childrens tree?

>>54302926
Are talking about the cave of the three-eyed crow(raven)?
It's somewhere beyond the Wall, in the Haunted Forest, east of the Fist of the First Men and somewhat near the headwaters of the Antler River.

>>54283000
No, not at all.

>>54303236
thanks, been a while since i opened up the books.

>>54290397
>I think I like ASOIAF and Westeros for the wrong reasons. I see it as dark, "realistic" fantasy
Yep, that would definitely be for the wrong reasons. As far as realism goes, GoT is complete and utter trash based off a completely false understanding of the medival period, how nations develop, scale, politics and basically everything.
The fact that the fat fuck likes to say it's so "realistic" is an utter insult to anyone with any knowledge about the period

>>54303471
wow, did martin personally come to your house and fuck you in the ass? thats the only reason i could see for being that butthurt.

besides even though the world building is only ok, the characters all feel like real people, even if its almost all real horrible people

>>54304057
Counterpoint: Arya. There is no way the reality presented could

A) Produce someone so consistently stupid and irrepressible in the face of pretty much unbroken failure to outsmart anyone
B) Survived in the world of murderape that GRRM sets up without heavy handed author protection.

She feels like this setting's Wesley Crusher, only around because the writer wants her to be a minor star.

>>54304290
ignoring that she's like fucking eight years old and spoiled at the start and way more beloved than wesley crusher theres the fact that since the very beggining her character has been passed around like a sack of potatoes by various groups, but it isnt as noticeable because from she doesnt see it that way most of the time

>>54283000
Was this stuff about the letter in the books? I've read all 5 and don' remember any of that,

>>54305181
it's in the world of ice and fire book, dorne shot down the dragon ridding by aegons favorite sisterwife and after aegon loses his shit send him a letter that gets him to stop all attempts to conquer dorne. it was kind of a bad decision by grrm since they had just killed a dragon and didnt need another reason for aegon to stop attacking

>>54301468
i have the pdf in my mediafire here

File: I love me some Game of Thrones, but you can't argue with this.jpg (328KB, 1033x1082px) Image search: [Google]

328KB, 1033x1082px

>>54288313

>>54291540
World of Ice and Fire said they trade iron for timber with southern traders when they're not being thieves and pirates.

File: Song of ice and fire.jpg (132KB, 864x864px) Image search: [Google]

132KB, 864x864px

Is hatred for Sansa the surest way to spot a showfag?

>>54307809
Who hates Sansa?

>>54301144
>And since again, you've offered nothing other than your own personal preferences for what constitutes a "boring part",
Yeah, long-winded descriptions and geneology lists.
>you have an opinion that many would be inclined to disagree with, not an evaluation.
About long-winded descriptions and geneology lists?
>Conversational styles are very varied and very detailed in LoTR; you can very clearly tell what sort of culture and class a given speaker has from how he talks. Aragorn, if you pay close attention to his dialogue, can slip from mode to mode and "culture" to culture, mimicking the diction of Barliaman, Boromir, and Hama when talking to each, despite three very disparate styles
Look bro, I'm glad you can enjoy a linguistics professor lecture, but you have an opinion that many would be inclined to agree with.
>Lord of the Rings is quintessentially a modern work, with very modern notions on things like the nature of evil and the corruption of power. He was not imitating ancient styles, and a work of this sort is distinctly 20th century.
>He was not imitating ancient styles
So you're just resorting to flat-out lies now?

>>54307809
No, the surest way is them thinking Ramsay might not have been so bad

>>54307893
A lot of people, surprisingly. There's a lot of them on reddit, and even more on asoiaf.westeros. Majority of them never read the books, and they all keep repeating the same false things
>Sansa is an evil bitch, who's mean to Arya for no reason
>Sansa is a shallow bitch, and hates perfect man Tyrion, who dindu nuffin wrong, when she should suck his cock for how kind he is. He even didn't rape her!
>Sansa is a stupid bitch, and she got her father killed
>Sansa chapters only exist to show us what's happening in King's Landing (later - what is Littlefinger up to)
>Sansa is weak, and only cries a lot
And then again, there are those so deep in showfaggotry, they blame Sansa for marrying Ramsay (when they should be blaming showrunners for making up retarded plot) or plotting to steal Jon's crown, when the crown is actually hers by right.

>>54307960
He actually isn't so bad in the books. I mean, yeah, he's a cruel monster, but is he really worse than people we've already met before, such as Gregor Clegane, Vargo Hoat and Euron Greyjoy?
Ramsay is only scary because we see him through Theon's eyes - somebody who is utterly at his mercy. Otherwise, he's a small fry. In fact, I strongly believe that by the end of ADwD he's already dead, and his identity is stolen by Mance Rayder.

>>54307809
you could just ask
>>54308030
everything she does in the show is whining and crying, of course we hate her, i am not saying every character should be a paragon of valour, but damn her scenes were just annoying. I don't care how great the character is in the books, she was shit in the show.

>>54307930
>Yeah, long-winded descriptions and geneology lists.
Cite one.

>Look bro, I'm glad you can enjoy a linguistics professor lecture, but you have an opinion that many would be inclined to agree with.
That's not a linguistics professor lecture. That's character development/revelation. That's part and parcel for any decent work of literature.

>So you're just resorting to flat-out lies now?
No, I've actually read both this book and anglo-saxon and other medieval chronicles, and noting the distinct differences with them. When do you ever see a PTSDish figure a la Frodo? When do you see a notion of power corrupting that permeates the entire work? Where do you see notions that glory of battle is in the defense of the helpless, not the slaughter of the enemy? Those are VERY modern concepts, and they underlie the entirety of the work.

Seriously, have you actually read LoTR? Or are you just working on memes and bullshit?

>>54307809
Sansa is the worst Stark, even in the books.

>>54308524
>When do you ever see a PTSDish figure a la Frodo? When do you see a notion of power corrupting that permeates the entire work? Where do you see notions that glory of battle is in the defense of the helpless, not the slaughter of the enemy? Those are VERY modern concepts, and they underlie the entirety of the work.
You keep citing content, and I've consistently said that Tolkien's content was of high quality. I'm not talking about content: I'm talking about writing style.

Many modern readers are not willing to slog through long sections of dry, boring, informational exposition, in order to get to the good content that others assure us are there. If I get bored, I stop reading, unless I'm obligated to write a paper on it or something (which I haven't been since I finished college.) When I read anything by Tolkien, before I reach the 100 page marker, I'm too bored to justify continuing, and I'm not the only one. This is doubly true when I can get all the content I want directly from a wiki-page, without having to slog through autistic description-masturbation.

>>54306489
Meraxes was only brought down by a one in a billion shot, it wasn't something that could be repeated. And in fact it never was repeated in the history of the world.

Moreover after his sister was killed Aegon ran roughshod over Dorne, burning down town after town, had it been any other Kingdom they would've given up but Dorne held out somehow and the war was only stopped because of a secret letter.

>>54308072
>Ramsay isn't so bad
Gregor, Vargo, and Euron are all monstrous, but only Euron is worse than Ramsay. Unlike Vargo and Gregor, who are little more that tools of war, Ramsay has obtained political power. He's stolen the lordship of Hornwood and is the heir presumptive to the Boltons' usurped overlordship of the North, and all his cruelty is continued, full throttle, in peacetime or in war.

>>54308030
Well she is a passive and suffering narrator for most of time, it was hard to like her chapters due to this.(No that she had any choice in that matter)
Being one of responsible for world going into flames does not help.
Also by the time she may become active character, books ends.

>>54309194
Euron molested his brother and cuts out the tongues of his servants.
Vargo tortured prisoners by cutting off their hands and feet.
Ramsay killed his brother and regularly hunts women to rape and murder. Also he tortured Theon.
Gregor killed his father, his sister, his first two wives, maimed his brother. His Keep is one where the servants and even the dogs live in constant fear. He bashed in a babies head and then raped the mother beside the corpse. He cut Vargo up and fed the pieces to prisoners. And there's probably a lot I'm forgetting.

>>54309136
>I'm talking about writing style.
Without actually citing what it is about his style that mimicks older works, or the fact that "style" is inextricably tied up with message.

>Many modern readers are not willing to slog through long sections of dry, boring, informational exposition,
Good thing those aren't in Lord of the Rings any more than any other work.

>When I read anything by Tolkien, before I reach the 100 page marker, I'm too bored to justify continuing, and I'm not the only one.
Funny, I found the same with GRRM. I guess my opinion is a sample of OBJECTIVE TRUTH ABOUT MARTIN'S STYLE WOOOOOO!

>>54310439
While I will admit that a majority of novels in the modern era suffer from the same stylistic pitfalls that Tolkien suffers, stemming in no small part, from the fact that the works Tolkien immitated, and Tolkien himself helped to define the Novel as a form. That's part of the reasons that, in general, with a few particularly skilled exceptions, the novel is a wasteful form that takes 20-100 pages worth of valuable content, and stretces it out on 500-1000 pages to the point where it's spread too thin to justify continuing to read.

Honestly, even GRRM suffers from this: i got bored and quit his series once the TV series came out, because I no longer had to slog through HIS long-winded descriptions. It's a matter of ratio: overexpositition to valuable content. In GRRM, it's about 50/50 (still pathetic) but with Tolkien, it's closer to 15/85. Hell, the only novelist who I'd say has a truly negligible amount of nonsense overexposition is Philip K Dick.

>>54283000

It's good.

My biggest gripe is the sense of scale. The story is written like Westeros is the size of a few medieval kingdoms, but the maps draw it as continent sized.

The way the story progresses you see characters make thousand mile journeys on horseback like it's nothing. You see an extremely barebones legal system controlling millions of square miles, armies of only tens of thousands or less can be supported, peasants are supposedly starving and most of the deer live on land privately owned. GRRM treats the wars like a few petty nobles duking it out rather than an entire continent at war.

He also has every Essos city-state get its own language and religion but the Andals parts of Westeros are extremely culturally homogeneous for supposedly half a continent with very decentralized power.

>>54307960

>tortures ironborn to death after the surrender
>hunts women through woods for sport
>extreme levels of kinslaying

yeah show!Ramsay dindu nuffin alright

I just saw an article on facebook about how "Game of Thrones is remaking history"

This fat autist is a blight on the world.

>>54311182
>stemming in no small part, from the fact that the works Tolkien immitated, and Tolkien himself helped to define the Novel as a form.
See, shit like this makes it hard to take you seriously, given that Tolkien did not write novels. Not a one. "Novel" is something distinct form "Long book in prose". Farmer Giles of Ham is closer to being a novel than Lord of the Rings is, despite it being about a tenth of the length of any one of the 3 double book volumes in LoTR; it has a clearly defined protagonist who actually drives the drama forward and the action both reveals and develops his character. Lord of the Rings is either a romance or a mythic arc, depending on how accurate you think the narrator is supposed to be.

Also, novels existed long before Tolkien. Your first modern novel is Don Quixote, which pre-dates Tolkien by about 320 year, and attritubint stylistic novel conventions to Tolkien is just dumb. Hell, it's not connected to fantasy either. Sentimental Education and Wuthering Heights are both novels, and I dare you to lay your wide ranging bizarre accusations about them.

>It's a matter of ratio: overexpositition to valuable content. In GRRM, it's about 50/50 (still pathetic) but with Tolkien, it's closer to 15/85.
No it isn't. And I have no idea how you're again defining "valuable content" other than "Well, shit I find interesting since I am the judge for all readers everywhere."

Look, it's okay not to like Tolkien, or to not like the conventions of fantasy, or any other subgenre. But acting like you're a critic and that your opinions are fact, when you're literally objectively wrong about the few concrete claims you do make just makes you look like an idiot.

>>54309181
first the history of the world thing is a bit much, second aegon running roughshod was only mentioned in the world which as i said before that book was the main cause for hate, and third it doesnt matter if the chances were low with only two dragons he could not afford to lose another no matter how low the chances. hell if were trying to apply realism than theres no way that aegon pulls that off, dragons need to rest and it wouldnt be hard for some sharpshooters to hide out in the wilds and kill them when they rest, theres no way an army could keep up with him at that rate he's supposed to have gone at so he doesnt have supplies even though he's in the desert and burning every source of supplies etc. etc.

Anyone else a fan of Jacob Preston's theories?

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXU7XVK_2Wd6tAHYO8g9vAA

>>54313848
Dudes fucking insane, he shows some understanding of the books, but then dives it to some retarded conclusion.