The HP issue

>>54235325
The dart pokes through the barbarian cheek, he rips out the dart and spits out blood before continuing

>>54235325
hit points are an abstraction

maybe the barbarian's honed reflexes made him turn his head at the last moment, or he was wearing some kind of helmet

>>54235325
The dart leaves a gigantic gash across the entire side of the barbarian's head leaving a nasty wound but the barbarian, while momentarily stunned, is unbroken. He tastes his blood before spitting it at you, roll for initiative.

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>>54235325

Damage-sponge hit points and location crits are incompatible. Fix your mechanics or use a system that does one or the other.

I'm not gonna say it, but someone else will, presently.

Also, what the hell do Barbs roll for hit dice in your game? d30s?

The dart is stuck in the barbarians head but it hasn't penetrated anything vital. It's stuck in his nose.
if he pulls it out, it will start to bleed profusely doing 1d10 damage
>Semi-related note
Are you that anon that was concerned about the difference between a character that has 10/10 hp versus a character that has 10/380hp
The difference between the two is like the difference between a healthy 8 year old child and a heavily wounded supersoldier

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>>54235325

>>54235325
The dart slams into the barbarians face embedding itself beside his nose, the barbarian is wounded, but it will take more than that to stop him

>>54235389
well thats obvious. but a "CRIT" shouldn't be fluffed as a miss to make up for the fact that the damage reletive to the amount of hp the character has is unrealistic.

>>54235371
this legitimately sounds like a fantastic piece of scene creating. you're probably a great DM.
if you're still here I'm curious to see what you can do with this. not trying to bait or anything.
everything is the same accept the dart is now a cannon and the total damage is now 175 damage in total. wtf is a DM meant to do with that.

The barbarian takes the hit dead on in the forehead, not piercing the skull but sticking in the bone due to the toughness of the barbarian. The barbarian is now rather pissed off.

>>54235439
20xd12+5 con+(2x20 from tough feat)=380 hp.
this doesn't even account for the fact that the barb would most certainly have some magic equips boosting his con past human limits.

>>54235505
yeah. I LIKE this one.
so far this is a real good thread. I'm probably just a uncreative person for needing to ask this question.

>>54235325
HP represents the amount of blows a person can take within the constructed narrative of combat anon.

Either it was a lucky shot, or you can play it off as a precursor to a string of bad luck the opponent, in effect, having the Epic-level PC recognize the dart Thrower's skill and go on the defensive.

Remember, not all fights have to meet the matter of a satisfying battle, but you do have to present a satisfying interactive story.

So, the PC got a crit in, you'd best pop it up to him immediately targeting the Dart thrower under the false impression he's a threat and that persons life is in danger, and you've got a really good fight strategem ahead

>>54235325
The dart strikes the barbarian in the forehead and sticks.
Roll Perception to notice it.

>>54235459
no that seems like an obvious difference.
a full hp person with low total and a high total hp person with low remaining are nothing alike.

a boromir with 3 arrows in him can probably take about the same amount of orc arrows more as a hobbit could. and the hobbit is unwounded.

>>54235325
Hit point bloat in D&D is a real issue for stuff like this even at reasonable levels, but why would you ever play a 20th level game? Moldvay Basic effectively stopped at 14th level and that was honestly too high (though your chances of surviving to that high a level were admittedly low). And classes were lower powered in that edition than most others. Once people start getting 5th level spells, you should start thinking about winding the game down, in my opinion.

So my answer is that I would try to avoid the situation entirely, but if I had to work with it, I'd say that level 20 characters are beyond powerful and are basically demigods. This means they can do impossible kung fu flick shit, meaning their reflexes are so supernaturally good that even a critical hit becomes little more than a graze. Plus, a level 20 barbarian might be able to withstand a shot directly to the head,

>>54235561
I 100% agree with this and this is how I do my battles. my issue is that a "crit" (a critical hit) should always hit.

I don't have all attacks directly hit just because the person rolled for damage, even if the damage total is high but when they crit. I don't think it's right to say. it grazes past their head or it almost hits him then he ducks out the way.

>>54235541
What edition is this?

>>54235691
Dnd 5e

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>>54235501
as no one saw this I'm posting it again.

>if you're still here I'm curious to see what you can do with this. not trying to bait or anything.
everything is the same accept the dart is now a cannon and the total damage is now 175 damage in total. wtf is a DM meant to do with that.

pic unrealated

>In a bar fight
>Declare my attack deals non lethal damage
>I'm a monk so I have no penalties to it
>Attack
>Hit
>Roll damage
>Due being decisive strike, superior unarmed strike, improved natural attack, monk's belt and other shenanigans I deal 80 damage on average
>Poor smuck dies instantly
How? I declared non lethal damage, this is silly

>>54235716
Man, I'd forgotten how out of whack hit points have gotten. In old school editions, you quit rolling dice or getting constitution bonuses once you hit name level. That means a 20th level character would have something like 9 hit dice + 9 times their constitution bonus + maybe 33 hit points (3 per level after they reached their hit dice cap, though this is the top end of things). So if we were to look at a 20th level Basic fighter, he'd have 9d8 + maybe 9 from Con bonus* + 22 from levels above hit dice cap = 71.5. And that's still way too many hit points, in my opinion.

*You could luck out and roll as high as a +3 constitution bonus, but that's certainly not something you could count on with flat 3d6 (and that would still only get you to 89.5 hit points).

>>54235325
>Throws a dart to a demigod
>Expects to do something
Yeah, so unfair, the other day I saw a palestinan kid throwing a pebble to a tank and the tank didn't imploded, the fuck is this??!

>>54235927
>declare nonlethal
>dies anyway
sounds like a rules-jerk dm

>>54235325
I would double-check barbarian's character sheet, because going over 300hp should not be possible.

>>54235751
The cannonball hits the barbarian in the chest and you can hear a few ribs cracking as he's knocked to the ground, as the dust settles you can see him stand up, he's definitely having injured but he's also pissed and still has a lot of fight in him

>>54235927
There's a rule saying that if your target takes more than half their health in samage while downed they die instantly, it's a variant rule, if you didn't know your DM was using it, that's kinda rude.

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>>54235992
but it's a headshot
>can you headshot with a cannon?
yes

>>54235990
not only is it possible even without the tough feat I added but it would probably be more seeing as a level 20 barb has a max con of 24 meaning with all possible factors it can go up to 420 hp.

>Headshot
Were you using called shots? if not, is not a head shot, you aimed at his head, but your crit doesn't turn it into a headshot

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>>54235751
Like I said before, I wouldn't run anywhere near a 20th level game, but if I did, I'd probably just embrace the whole thing and have the barbarian take the burnt of the cannonball and get back up. Either that or he catches the fucking thing.

>>54236049
>the tough feat
I guess we're each talking different edition.

>>54236089
5e has Tough feat, +2 HPs per level

If you were talking about 3.5, being above 300 healt for a Barb is piss easy

>>54236027
The barbaruan tries to grab the cannon ball in flight and succeeds, unfortunately he's not strong enough to completely stop it before it slams into his face breaking his nose and fracturing his skull, a normal person would not be able to continue fighting in this condition but hatred, will power and obserd physical toughness keeps the barbarian standing

>>54235978
read the thread and understand why everywhere you post people call you a retard.

if you think a level 20 barb is as strong as thor then you should be ban from DnD.

HP represents fighting spirit. 18 damage from burning hands on a high hp character =/= equal being engulfed in flames
it means the spell is very strong and seriously burns you a limb
18 damage on a low damage character would engulf them and as a DM I'd probably force them to go prone or continue burning for DoT damage.

people enjoy DnD more when they're emerged. nothing ruins emersion like “the ballista bolt ricocheted off the rogues chest.”

>move at mach 3
>punch a dude
>not only he's able to react fast enough to attack me because I provoked an AoO but also neither of us turn into red mist upon my impact
And before you ask, yes, my current char moves at mach 3

>>54236027
The barbarian, seeing that he is unable to get out of the way in time rears back his head and headbutts the cannonball with all his strength. You hear a resounding crack as the projectile is deflected to the side, you aren't sure if it was the barbarian or the cannonball. The barbarian is dazed but still standing. His unfocused eyes turn in you direction and he snarls.

>>54236132
HP only makes sense as meat points in DnD, some attacks have secondary effects like swallowing or poison that only make sense if the attack connected

>>54236083
thinking about it I'd probably have him catch it and have the cannon push his arms back and have it hit his head but have it so him catching it slowed it down enough for him to survive. he'd then be knocked back 10ft and be stunned.

full discloser. I've never run a campaign higher than level 11. this thread is me taking it to the extreame to idea mine how to fluff combat.

>>54236132
>Demigod
>Thor
I read the thread, but you clearly didn't read the sagas

A 20 level Barb is clearly on the realm of demigoddesness, he can swim in lava and emerge alive, he can rage so hard he flies, etc

The best example I've ever heard for how Hitpoints really work is they are simply a measure of your characters stamina and ability to evade/shrug off/roll with hits that are coming at them, so a 50 damage sword swing may have cut it's 200 hp target a little but it was mostly the evasion that wore them out, nobody can dodge or take hits forever.

>Coat my blade with contact poison
>NOW I'm way more precise with my attacks

>>54236168
>read the thread
>proceeds to not read thread

this whole thread is full of ways to get rid of the meat points meme.
the fact that you're aware of the criticism meat points gets and you're still head strong about it probably makes me think you're not willing to change though. if you're a player or DM I'm sure you're having fun regardless so I'm not going to try and convince you but play around with shit that in this thread and I'd wager that you'll like it more.

>>54235325
have you tried n

>>54236194
Hit points are inconsistent. Heal spells and continuing damage treat them like meat points.

Just use massive damage rules modified to fit the situation?

Not sure how to apply them to 5E but work something out of it.

Personally we avoid called shots, a crit is by itself assumed to hit a critical location such as the head

HP is literally just an integer

HP - damage
HP + heal

Boom

>>54236285
Meat points while stupid is built into DnD as a system

>>54236378
actual autism

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>>54236181
>flying with rage
blah blah magic blah blah
>swimming in lava
"you hear a voice in your head telling your to jump in, you shake the thought away dismissing it as crazy, the voice repeats telling you to trust it, the two anchent dragons on your tail doesn't leave you with many other options other than to trust it, you dive into the lava and swim across the molten strream. despite the intense heat you manage to swim across, the heat molten rock feels like nothing more than a extra hot spring, as you approach the the end of the stream the heat becomes almost too much for you to bare but you soldier on and emerge on the other end. "thank you" you think to yourself but you hear no responce back, you can only assume what protected you from the heat but as the dragons see you emerge from the stream they take flight and continue their persute, you have no time to ponder, you continue running."

pretty much just jacking myself off at this point but you understand that level 20 characters don't have to be almost immortal. fuck even achilles managed to do epic deads from prowers alone and not due to the fact that he could take an arrow to the face.

>>54236349
not at all, a heal spell can act as a stamina boost. not to mention that you'll take scratches as you lose HP. it's not like you go from slightly tired with 4/40 hp to sword in the eye.

>>54236435
Meat points aren't stupid in and of themselves. It's just ridiculous to have so many of them.

>>54236470
>blah blah magic blah blah
Actually is not magic, it still works on an antimagic field.

>All that wall post
He can still jump again, and again, and several times more, and then, after 8 hours rest do the same, 8 hours rest and the same. In this volcano, in that one, in any one.

>>54236470
And yet he dies to a single crit like a little bitch.

>>54235325
>>54235325
>Not using crit tables that can ohko any target on a 100 d100 roll.

>Expecting a level 1 character to be a threat to a level 20 one.

Granted it still did close enough to 10% of the barbarians total hp which is nothing to sneeze at when you consider multiple enemies attacking. Fictionally this is still a painful blow.

>Alternatively have you tried not playing D&D?

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>>54236520
>Actually is not magic, it still works on an antimagic field.
I was being vague for rhetorical effect.
think of it like Ki. sure he it doesn't say that he has Ki on his character page but a primal warrior who hones his body to past human limits clearly has form of natrual magic even if it's not arcane in nature.

>He can still jump again
yep and you're just a cunt.do you actively try to ruin campaigns and then say shit like "that the whole POINT of DnD?" DnD isn't a video game it's a shared narrative. if you try to do dumb shit like that to destroy that narrative just because your character sheet says you can you are just a cunt. I'd use a worse word if I had any at hand.

heres a cute girl. fuck you.

>>54235927
>In a bar fight IRL
>Don't want to kill
>Hit guy in face
>Turns out I bruised his brain and he dies in hospital 2 weeks later
Fucking jerks

>>54236552
>superiotity dice
>level 1
>have you tried not playing D&D meme despite meat points not just being a DnD problem

did the kids get off school or something? the thread was pretty decent until now.

>>54236538
moral of the story, never skip heel day.

>>54236486
Why wouldn't a person recover that stamina on his own? I'm not sure how many hit points folks heal on their own in 5e, but I think it used to be 1d2 per day. How fucking winded do you have to be to take a month to get your breath back? If a normal man can take maybe 4 or 5 hit points of damage before going down, and some of that represents stamina, then we're talking about maybe 2 or 3 actual meat points in there. Let's say that the high level character is 2 or 3 times that tough, giving him 6 meat points. That means that that the rest of his hit points -- the vast majority of them -- should be replenished quickly.

And while we're at it, why does a really fit, tough, high-level guy who is 50% winded take a bunch of healing to restore to full, while a weak, out of shape, low-level guy only takes one?

>>54235325
Was the Barbarian raging?
If so, you all hear a grunt as you watch the barbarian's head fly backward .
For a single heartbeat there is a weight in your chest as you hold your breath and state fixedly on the body of the barbarian rocked backwards by the blow.
With incredible speed a foot slides back and they have caught themselves.
Unable to turn away you fight the urge to blink as the head of the barbarian snaps up holding the bolt between his teeth, blood pouring from between grinning maw.
Guess who's got a new piecing?

>>54236470
I don't understand this lava meme.

Lava does anything between 6d10. (According to the dmg improvised damage on the latter)

An average human fighter with say a generous +3 from level 1 con bonus has 154 hp at level 20 barring feats etc.

So he's dead after 3 rounds or 18 seconds which for a character who at that level is effectively demigod like seems fair enough, or if anything pretty harsh.

In that time if we use the swim speed by raw he can yes swim 90 foot in lava if he dashes every round and he passes what should be a very hard athletics check each time. (DC 25 at least ) Though I'd argue swimming through lava is torturously difficult and say he can swim five foot per move , meaning in 3 rounds he'd manage 30 foot with dashes if he passed all of his athletics checks. Whilst still definitely in the realms of the physically impossible, again we're dealing with a demigod in a heroic fantasy game and even he'd succumb fast.

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>>54235751
The ball falls two meters short of your foe, bouncing the ground once before going beneath his armpit. The extensive grazing in the arm draws some blood. The odd fighting stance he assumes afterwards clues you about ribs out of place. You can tell he won't survive another strike like this.

Does this works? And yes, cannonballs bounce in both ground and water.

>>54236735
>I don't understand this lava meme.
D&D in bad at portraying environmental damage - heat, drowning, falls, frostbites, etc. It's always either super lethal or laughably harmless. Swimming in lava is just one of the examples.

>>54236715
Its a drop in the bucket to the total hp, fall back on the rule of cool.
If you want them to earn it, roll a Acrobatics to catch themselves before they fall on their ass. (DC 15)
And if that dart is half as heavy as it looks and they were raging... maybe a STR save to beat 15 or loose a couple teeth

>>54236735
Bleh typing on my phone.

Lava deals anything between 6d10 and 10d10 damage meaning 60 damage per round on average for the latter based on the improvised damage rules in the dmg. So they're dead by round three if you're generous and deal the damage after they've acted.

>>54235751
>as no one saw this I'm posting it again.
No, people saw it, and ignored it.

>>54236686
>month to heal
what?
> I'm not sure how many hit points folks heal on their own in 5e
as many hit die as they have during as 10 minute short rest.in short if a barbarian is level 5 he can spend up to 5d12 to heal up just for sitting down for 10 minutes. a wizard has 5d6.

>high-level guy who is 50% winded take a bunch of healing to restore to full, while a weak, out of shape, low-level guy only takes one?
because stamina is a concept. it's just a justification. if a wizard heals him the spell can be negiligible while healing a level 2 rogue could be a full reguvinating experience. regardless how you'd fluff that is easy. while the barbarian is tired (24/120 hp) and rogue is mostly fine (12/16 hp) the rogue won't be able to keep up the fight for as long as the seasoned barbarian who can fight for a long time even when tired. the heal could boost him up a small amount compared to his max but obviously you'd just say something like "you feel the healing waves cover your body and you gain a new surge of energy" despite the heal probably only healing something like 6 hp while with the rogue it's something like "dispite your scratches you feel as if you're fresh and ready fight, like a new man. you feel your wounds slowly but surely closing up and you gain the confidence to keep fighting"

>>54236796
Yes but if you read my post you'd note it isn't. A level 20 fighter can survive a mere 3 rounds in lava which considering it's a heroic fantasy and a level 20 character is a demigod seems deadly enough to me.

Anything up to a level 7 fighter with a +3 con bonus by that same rule dies in one round on average, which again seems fitting enough as it's lava. It's only until level 13 that the fighter can survive two rounds.

>>54235541
>magic equips boosting his con past human limits.
You mean like the Barbarian capstone ability, that gives them +4 Strength and Constitution and increases their maximums by the same?

>>54236780
again this is a head shot.
but yes bouncing and slowing down is an excellent idea this plus this >>54236124
makes a great combo.

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>>54236181
>>54236470
>>54236735
>>54236796
>>54236812
Damage or not, I'm amazed at him swimming in lava. That may be viscous, but it is still actual rock. You would need a lot of weight and strentgh to enter it in the first place.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S22YZEJAXLE

Wait... Am I being what /tg/ calls autist right now?

>>54236918
>>54236049
yeah
I do mean that

>>54235459
>The dart is stuck in the barbarians head but it hasn't penetrated anything vital.
It's six inches deep in his brain... but he's a Barbarian, so yeah. Nothing vital.

>>54236914
yeah but if you read pretty much any other post in this thread you'd relise that the barbarian has 380 hp and is capable of have up to 420 hp at level 20 with feats so how do you explain that. you understand that we are trying to stop the "demigod" meme right?

>>54236935
no but you are forgeting that barbarians are usually pretty strong.

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>>54236933
>again this is a head shot.
Fuck, forgot that.

>but yes bouncing and slowing down is an excellent idea
Thanks.

>>54236935
>24 str
>Superhumanly strong
>As strong as most dragons
He'll be fine

>>54236027
>but it's a headshot
>>can you headshot with a cannon?
>yes
Not unless you say it is: there are no called shots in 5e, even with Sharpshooter it's just a damage buff, you don't actually get to decide where you hit.

>>54236914
>A level 20 fighter
We were talkign about a 20th level barb that can survive a minute

>>54235751
It hits him in the head and bounces off, causing the barbarian to stagger back. His nose is broken and both his eyes are blacked from the impact, but he's still up.

Next turn.

>>54236735
>6d10
>3d10 to a bearb
>a 20th level bearb has on average 275.5 HPs
>3d10 deals 16.5
A 20th level barb can swim in lava 16 turns, 96 seconds, 1.5 minutes

>>54237026
Battlemaster.

>>54236168
>swallowing
"The monster tries to bite you, but you get your gauntleted fists up in time to keep its jaws from tearing off your face. The force of the bite is huge, however, and the strain causes you to buckle as the beast's mouth closes over top of you, and you begin to slide down its massive gullet."

>poison
"You rear back from the assassin's blade, reducing a deadly stab to a mere scrape that you barely even feel, a thin line of blood appearing on your cheek. You're feeling pretty confident until you notice the assassin's grin... just as your vision starts to go blurry."

>>54237026
just read sharpshooter again.
no idea where I got the headshot idea from.
I guess you could just add the 10 damage but then it raises the question "where is the 10 extra damage coming from?" heart is a good option. allows the whole hitting the chest thing which feels a lot better.

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>>54237096
>The force of the bite is huge, however, and the strain causes you to buckle as the beast's mouth closes over top of you, and you begin to slide down its massive gullet."
Anon, stop!

>>54237076
barbs don't half fire damage.

>>54237077
What's that supposed to mean? There aren't any maneuvers that let you make a called shot.

>>54236735
Why are you talking about fighters? We're talking about barbarians.

>>54237110
>"where is the 10 extra damage coming from?" heart is a good option. allows the whole hitting the chest thing which feels a lot better.
If we're using abstract hit points, you can even just say that being so accurate means they have to expend even more effort to not die from the attack.

>>54237137
He said Bearb, as in a Bear Totem Barbarian. They halve everything but psychic while raging.

>>54236935

It's up to the GM to set how hard a DC is. We can say it's 25 meaning very hard which means even with a +11 from +6 prof and + 5 in str the fighters failing 70% of the time and when he succeeds moving a mere five foot which shows extreme effort to say the least.

A level 1 fighter granted would have a 5%(NAT 20) chance if we assume he has a +3 str and proficiency but he's already dead when he hits the lava anyway.

We can also outright say it's not possible and not allow a roll at all, or make it near impossible at DC 30 meaning that level 20 fighter would only have a 10% chance to succeed and it would be impossible for a level 1 fighter even on a nat 20.

There's also the fact that a level 20 character is by this point a demigod who goes toe to toe with other supernatural beings like dragons and storm giants because he's at their power level or higher. If you can conceptualise a giant or a dragon surviving in lava for a few seconds at least you can conceptualise a demigod level fighter (think Hercules, Achilles , Samson ) doing the same.

>>54237137
RTDM, senpai

>>54237198
>demigod
he said it again

lord please leave the thread.

hercules was human and could be killed, he won due to his super human strength and fighting prowess, achilles was human and could be killed, he wond due to his super human reflexes.

if you think either of them could take an arrow to the a javilin to the head and survive then you are an actual retard and you need to pick up the books you supposedly base your level 20 characters limitations on.

>>54237076
>one specific class, using one specific archetype at level 20 is 'unrealistically' good at one specific thing his class is designed to do (take damage) despite being a demigod by that level anyway. A

Yeah still don't see the issue

>>54237213
sorry famalam I didn't know bearb was a term. I thought it was a typo.

sad thing is I have a panda bearb DMPC in my campaign so I should have known this.

>>54237273
>Op mentions a barb
>People talk about the barb
>"well, but is just the barb"
Yeah, we're still talking about the 20th level barb, what? do you want to talk about something else? create a new thread then

>>54237263
Achilles literally could take a javelin to the head and survive

>>54237263

This has to be bait.

Hercules was the son of Zeus and the mortal Alcmene ergo a demigod.

Achilles mother was the water goddess Thetis and his father the mortal Peleus ergo he was a demigod.

Achilles was literally immortal by many accounts except for his famous heel and could exactly take arrows to the head and survive.

Hercules wrestled the three headed dog of the underworld to the ground and ignored a bite from its dragon head.

That's exactly a level 20 character.

>>54237365
and yet a poisoned arrow to the heel killed him.

>>54237285
>Panda
>DMPC
Run

>>54237378
then why the fuck didn't they send achilles alone with grapling hook into troy to kill every man in the city alone?

demigod means super human ablity, that doesn't mean bullet proof skin dick head.

>>54237468
Because the walls of Troy would never be defeated by an enemy. Prophesy, yo.

>>54237410
Either you are actually fucking retarded or you know nothing about Achilles, at which point your dicision to debate about him despite the fact still makes you actually fucking retarded.

>>54237468
You're the only one bringing the immortal thing, nobody is saying a 20th level barb is immortal, what people says is that it takes more than a dart to his head to kill him

>>54237365
Cu Chulainn once threw a spear through the head of an opponent, and they stopped the fight so the guy could walk back to camp and show his friends. Guy came back the next day and Cu killed him.

>>54237410
A poison that was delivered by a Apollo to Paris though

>>54237451
not a pandaren or anything like that
it was a butch woman who used to be a salor but was marrooned on an island and stayed alive due to taming a panda. she was rescused but became some what feral during her time there. she tried to go back to her old life but could readapt so she started the adventures life. she covers her face and forarms in chark and her her eyes in coal to honor her panda friend she left on the island.

in the context of my campaign DMPC's make sense. they're just people that pop in and out I have a few and they work somewhat like shadowrun where they come along for a cut of everything you find.

>>54235325
I encourage players to use fluffy dialogue when attempting an attack, because I turn that fluff into hard-coded game mechanics.

Fighting becomes a lot more interesting when you include the ability to impale creatures, cut off limbs, and stun, etc.

For monsters I usually just make it happen as an effect, and I rarely have any players suffer limb-loss, because that's not really fun.

>>54237410
You have to be trolling.
Because when he was a baby he dipped in the river styx by his mother rendering him immune to harm but she wouldn't submerge his heel so that was his weak point.

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>>54235325
do you really need to ask for this one?

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>>54237543
THIS NIGGA GETS IT.

>fighter goes to do a spin strike with his maul
>-2 to hit due to hard telegraphing
>hits anyway
>target is knocked 5ft to the side and is prone

simple shit like this. balance it out as not to make battlemaster useless but give martials the option to add flavour to their attacks and casters the ability to do a variety of effects with a spell or even change it open learning it.

for instance

>sorcerer wants a fire version of shocking grasp
>allow him to have a heat metal cantrip which requires him to keep his target grappled for each stage of heat, as long as he keeps the grappled the metal keeps getting hotter up to stage three, when he lets go the metal stays hot and has to cool down.

DnD is much better when you allow players to play the way they want rather than saying, no you can't make called shots or no you can't throw a shield. just balance it.called shots without sharpshooter is -7 to hit and only does and does a d10 instead of 10 flat or something.

>>54235325
"As the dart goes flying true, it hits the barbarian square in the forehead. However, despite the apparent bleeding and how the shot briefly stunned him, this only seems to make him more angry than before"


You largely underestimate what something like 400hp means. That's the amount of health that dragons have. Can you imagine a simple dart to the head felling a dragon in one hit? no? Then neither the same should be true for such a high level character.

>>54235389
Not to mention these are entirely REALITY BREAKING CHARACTERS. Things that would easily kill a normal man many times over still leaves just scratches and bruises by comparison.

Just the same as the heroes of folklore like Achilles, Hercules, Beowulf, etc not being killed so easily despite taking damage that would rip anyone else to shreds like tissue paper. Why do they survive? Sure they deflect some of the worst of it due to their amazing skill but at the end of the day.... it's because they're just that fucking badass

The only problem I tend to have with "hp is an abstraction" is that it plays poorly with healing magics. It takes ever-greater power to undo what should be roughly the same amount of actual physical harm, assuming someone at 10/100 is roughly as injured as someone at 1/10.

Then again most players understand that it's a bit silly and are happy to hand wave it away.

I try to blend the two. A high-level barbarian who takes 40 damage to the face is injured yet miles away from going down. Their combined willpower and physical resilience means you almost need to pulverize such a hero to put them down.

>>54237646
>spin strike with his maul

If I were DM'ing, it would depend on the enemy, but if he did like, 10 damage with it, and the enemy had like, 12 hit points to begin with, I might just say that he kills him outright. But again, it depends, if he just said "I swung it", then it could be anywhere, likely the chest, so instead I could say "You pummel your opponent in the chest with your maul, knocking the air out of him and knocking him flat on the ground." If he hit him in the head though, yea, instant death pretty much. The bonus damage he'd get from it would put him over anyway.

In one instance, when I was DM'ing, I had a thief fighting a harpy in some ruins, and he wasn't able to get at her because she was flying, so he fired at her with his heavy crossbow. He hit and dealt max damage, so I said, "Okay, your bolt flies through the air and strikes one of the Harpy's wings, clipping her in mid-air. You see her plummet to the ground" (where she suffered an additional 2d6 damage, though survived).

>>54237410
Do you know what an Achilles' heel means?
Hint: doesnt mean "place you get hit"

>>54237468
Are you really this ignorant of the mythology and literature? Well here's some lessons son.

>A demigod within the context of a polytheistic pantheon like that of ancient Greece were supernatural beings capable of immense super human feats. They were not immune to death or immortal however, seeing as both Hercules and Achilles died but they were certainly more so than mortals. They were further not capable of fully god like feats and even god's themselves were vulnerable, fallible beings within the mythology despite their strengths with many being captured, killed or harmed within the myths but crucially usually only by other gods or demigods.

>In respect to their duel nature, there's some accounts where Hercules upon death is both deified and sent to the underworld .

>The walls of Troy were impentratable by the Greek army hence the need for the ruse of the Trojan Horse. Methods of siege warfare in this period were incredibly primitive and walls provided an excellent defence and the kind of gruelling deadlocked fights described within the Iliad.

>The Iliad, where we get the bulk of the story of Achilles from was written by Homer in Iron Age Greece and called back to the heroic bronze age within the mythic past of Greece. In historical terms it was likely referring to a time when the strongest men on the battlefield were powerful lords armed with the best weapons and armour who could wreck havoc and would often duel one another within battle. By the Iron Age Greeks had adopted the hoplite method of warfare and the bravado, talent and equipment of an individual warrior was relatively unhelpful against or within a well trained formation.

>In fictional terms it was about super human beings duking it out. Not much differently from a modern superhero flick. Note that those on the Trojan side were demigods too, with Hector by some accounts slaying 31,000 Greeks and being the grandson of the river gods Sangurius and Metope.

>>54237741
>The only problem I tend to have with "hp is an abstraction" is that it plays poorly with healing magics. It takes ever-greater power to undo what should be roughly the same amount of actual physical harm, assuming someone at 10/100 is roughly as injured as someone at 1/10.
The problem here is that you're reading abstract HP as "1 damage to a 10 HP character is the same level of physical injury as 10 damage to a 100 HP character".

When in reality it's "Every attack with a lethal weapon will kill you if it hits, unless you pay HP equal to the damage roll." HP represents your stamina and ability to turn a lethal blow into a nonlethal one. Until you hit 0 HP, you're not taking any major injuries, no matter how much damage you take. You might get bruised or knicked (thus allowing secondary effects like poison to make sense), but you're not really taking a dangerous hit until you take the hit that drops you.

10 HP vs. 100 HP is nothing more than a greater ability to avoid dying. Think of an attack's damage not as how much it will hurt you if it hits, but how much effort it will take you to avoid dying if it hits.

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>>54235325
>this attack hits a level 20 barbarian with 380 hp

IF we are talking pathfinder then it has above RPGA hits points for its level, even counting its rages and a +6 magic bonus to con. It should be about 365.


I would also like to point out barbarian is the only class that I know of that uses a d12

I would also like to point out that a level 20 character is a demigod.

Just go full Shōnen fighting anime. You could even work in the character from the pic and say "you hit the character in the right eye and it deflects off, chipping what was a very realistic prosthetic eye".

>>54237998
>that image
>that second half of the comment
>not even understanding the whole point of the game
>experience makes your skin vibranium

just leave I'm tired of actual fuck boys like you.

>>54237950
That completely negates the concept of critical hits and coup de grace's, and death from massive damage.

Critical hits are CRITICAL hits, not hits that merely drain you of stamina. You should look completely bashed and bloodied when you're missing 3/4th's of your HP.

I'm glad you'll never be my DM, because that's really fucking lame.

>>54237950
But that actually makes things worse regarding healing magics. If 5 hit points of damage on a guy who only ever has 5 hit points is the same as 50 hit points on a guy who has 50 max hit points, then the same heal spell that replenishes 5 hit points in the weaker guy should replenish 50 hit points in the tougher one.

>>54238052
Not that guy, but if you don't want your characters bleeding like shonen protagonists maybe you should play a lower powered game.

>>54237950
Wrong.

This is what a fight should look like.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFvCX_rD_BA

>>54238103
Well, is pretty clear that "experience" in the game in question allow this Barb to skinny dip in 1000ºC lava, rage so hard they fly, etc. Experience seems like a really powerful thing

>>54238103
this is a hypothetical scenario created to stimulate ideas of how a character survives a big damage crit without it being "the arrow hits him in the eye but he's okay" or the "halberd hits him in the abs but he's still fighting" or the absolute fucking worst of all "the crossbow bold hits him in the head and bounces off leaving a slight scratch"

>>54238169
The last one not only is possible, it has happened. An really angled shot might just bound of his head leaving "just" a flesh wound

>>54238200
why would a critcal hit be a angled shot?

>>54238142
Super powerful. If you've got a real problem with that play a game where characters getting exponentially stronger every level isn't built right in.

>>54238169
You underestimate the human body's ability to survive damage to its structural integrity.

>>54237950
"Players often ask how hurt a monster looks. Don't ever
feel as though you need to reveal exact hit points, but if
a monster is below half its hit point maximum, it's fair to
say that it has visible wounds and appears beaten down.
You can describe a monster taken to half its hit points as
bloodied, giving the players a sense of progress in a fight
against a tough opponent, and helping them judge when
to use their most powerful spells and abilities."

Taken directly from the DMG for 5th edition.

>>54238233
why not?
Take a bow, crit with it, now roll 1d8x3, roll 1. you deal 3 damage. It happened to me, 3 damage on a crit, what's that if not an attack to a vital point that didn't go as intended?

But the thing is, just because you aimed at the head and you rolled a crit doesn't mean your attack was a headshot. If you want a real headshot use called shots.

>>54238240
I'm on your side, retard.

>>54238240
if you don't like having to expend the energy to explain why such a thing could happen in a semi-realistic world why don't you just accept that you only play your games like dragon ball z because you're lazy and uncreative and not imply that meat points are the only way to play DnD in a thread full of people proving you wrong?

>>54238259
yeah okay if the barbarian with 380 health took 200 damage ish then sure the arrow goes though his skull and he's not only alive but able to keep fighting. he's a barbarian and a stupidly strong one at that. I can belive that. but to say either A)10% of his hp equals arrow in skull or B)because he has experience his skull is strong enough to deflect a direct arrow to the head then you're basicly pulling me out of the moment. no not the game but the moment. you may as well not explain what happend and skip over it it's so unsatisfying. yes an arrow can obviously graze hit I'm not retarded but a CRITICAL HIT should be a direct fucking hit. doesn't have to be in the heart or the head of course but you should at least fucking make that shit hit him rather than explaining it away as a graze hit.

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how about like this

>>54238277
>just because you aimed at the head and you rolled a crit doesn't mean your attack was a headshot

You either have a really shitty GM, or you ARE a shitty GM.

>>54238379
Nice, I will always aim at the hear, if I hit the enemy is dead. Sorry, GM, I said I aimed at the heart.

You don't roleplay the hit before making it, retard. You roleplay it after.

>>54238418
READ THE THREAD
E
A
D

T
H
E

T
H
R
E
A
D

>>54238443
I read it, is a shitty thread full of nonsense and people bitching abut stuff they don't know, in this case HPs and roleplaying BEFORE rolling and seing the effect (aka damage not being enough to kill).

>>54238418
>You don't roleplay the hit before making it, retard. You roleplay it after

Yup Johnny, that's right, you can roleplay as much as you want, but you can't roleplay before you make an attack. In fact, you have absolutely no idea where you're aiming until your hit has landed! Yup, that's how things work in real life! This guy was coming at me so I swung at his head. Of course, I wasn't allowed to aim at his head, so I closed my eyes and swung at him. Only when I opened them did I realize that I hit him in the head! Be careful out there Johnny, never know what's going to happen, even if you have total control of your body and actions!

>>54238491
No, you're a dipshit moron who's incapable of not being autistic.

>>54238418
So if someone tells me that they swing at the enemies legs, am I supposed to somehow say "Oh, you landed a critical hit, you can't kill them by swinging at their legs, so you swung at their head instead"? What are you, a fucking retard?

Kill yourself.

>>54238522
>I give the best speach ever, here's my speech, is copy pasted from breave hart, clearly people are hyped as fuck
>nat1
>Sorry, anon, but...
>WOAH WORST GM EVER, MY SPEECH WAS PERFECT!
Expectations =/= reality

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>>54238491
yep we are just wrong
forget the fact that I set up a scenario and not only did I get a satisfying answer but I got a whole thread FULL of satisfying answers.
>>54235371
>>54235417
>>54235483
>>54235505
>>54235583
just to list a few

and then not only that. I set up a ridiculous scenario and even then got satisfying answers

>>54236780
>>54236155
>>54236124

but yeah you're right level 20 characters are goku and bullets deflect off them until you know. they don't.

how about you DM a game and tell someone their crit arrow missed. see how long they stick around.

>>54238605
>I give the best speech ever

That's not roleplaying. Roleplaying would be to actually give a speech, and if the speech was actually pretty good, the DM might even not require you to roll.

You see, that's how "roleplaying" works, it's not called "roll-playing" for a reason, you gigantic retard faggot.

>>54235501
The barbarian staggers, his head wrenched to one side, but doesn't fall. He turns back towards you, half his face a complete ruin, rage written across the other half.

>>54238605
>I give the best speech ever =/= I swing my sword at his head

One statement assumes the resolution of an action. The other statement doesn't. Can you guess which one is which? Try not to think too hard now.

>>54238605
hahahahahha
he makes people who make good speeches roll, at best I roll a D6 to see how they react. you are confirmed for the worst DM.

I don't care if they stole the whole speech. as long as it was high energy and it suited the moment then you bet your ass thats a success. why the fuck even try to roleplay at that point. just roll and you succeed so fuck it say anything.

>>54238618
>but yeah you're right level 20 characters are goku and bullets deflect off them
Well, which system? my barb had 20 DR at 15th level in 3.5, a pistol deals 3d6, it literally bounces off, a rifle? 3d8,pretty much the same unless race instances. So yes.

Also my point was nowhere near 20th level = immortal, but keep strawmaning my posts into that, maybe you'll strike a win against a non existic argument on my part.

>>54238705
>hahaha he follows the manual, meanwhile I just railroad
Whatever helps your games

>>54238052
>thinking a level 20 barbarian should die just as easily as your fat, greasy, neckbeard ass because they're still technically "human"

>>54235325
I don't describe it. If I was going to describe every blow dealt during combat, it would drag endlessly. I narrate finishing blows, really nasty hits (this is not really a nasty hit worth mentioning beyond "anon, you were critted for 39 damage") and let players narrate their attacks if they feel like it.

I would start narrating this shit more in depth if we didn't played a hack&slash.

>>54238705
hahahahahha he lets the player who works as a used cars salesmen and always plays fighters who dump charisma be more charismatic than the bard played by an engineer.

Next he'll make players go outside and jump across a sand pit whenever they want to use acrobatics.

>>54235371

This except it sticks in his eyeball, he stares the PC straight in the eye, and then slowly pulls it out.

>>54235325
>Level 20 Barbarian

The dart hits him in the head, and, assuming the PC is also of a high level, blows off half his head, taking with it most of his brain. The barbarian roars in rage loud enough that the cave collapses, and keeps coming, swimming through the solid stone that encases him.

I mean holy shit Level 20 Characters make fucking Beowulf shit himself from the raw power exuded so...

>>54238792
Truth. Narrating each blow can become a bit dull after a while. If you want to spice up combat, you give details of a particular blow, and maybe have it have an effect on the creature.

Slashing through hordes of bandits with all of them acting as fearless as an undead warrior is also really dull, and you should give living beings personality and morale.

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>>54238715
pretty much my argument is "if your system of illustrating attacks is anything other than whats going on in this thread then you're trash/getting cheated by your DM" IMB4 "huhh having fun wrong" maymay

I don't care how else you do it, bullets deflecting off, tennis bull sized hole in the lung and still fighting or "your arrow JUUUUUUUUUST misses him and leaves a scratch on his face" despite your player rolling a crit.

all of these are complete trash.

>catching a dart in your teeth
>COOL

>dart grasing your head
>GAY

>Dart hitting you pin point on the forhead and then sliding off because of your titanium skull
>GAY

>Dart hitting you in the brain stem but it's okay still got 340 hp left
>GAY

it doesn't really matter how I miss represent your argument when you're already so clearly wrong. I'm not arguing to make my dick feel big I'm arguing so that people ignore you and read the fucking thread to learn the GOOD way of painting a battle.

>>54238843
>make fucking Beowulf shit himself

Beowulf wrestled a troll naked, without weapons, till its arm came off.

>>54238735
>Rolls D6 to determin outcome of players actions
NICE RAILROADING

do you have brain damage? did you maybe take a dart to the skull or prehaps a cannonball?

>>54238867
No, you aren't misrepreseing my posts at al, you're literally coming up with stuff I didn't even remotely said or imply. Keep doing it, you're clearly good at fighting illusions and constructs, I guess you're a femnists.

>>54238735
>he reads the manual

You mean the manual which emphasizes role-playing over roll-playing? Which also has example encounters where the characters roleplay their attacks for they roll for them?

Are you legitimately autistic?

>>54238808
hahaha he lets actual retards play wizards and people who smell like piss and only leave their house to play DnD play bards or Knights

if you can't ROLEPLAY it. you can't play it.

acrobatics isn't a roleplay. speaking is, stratergizing is also something that should be reserved for people with a brain. if you play a wizard with 20 int and your battle plan is to walk up to pack of worg ridding hobgoblins to do a thunderwave prepare to be killed by falling rocks and to reroll a low int charcter.

these people slow the game down and make it less exciting I don't care if I hurt a persons feelings. play what you're capable of playing.
I play DnD to see great roll playing and clever plays if you're going to take one of those slots and be trash at it then prepare to be stopped.

with that being said non of my players are socially inept enough to be unable to roll play or stupid enough to not be able to play a mastermind or a lore master.

>>54238927
>Still don't get it
You can say what you intend to do, you don't say "I hit his head" then when the roll doesn't indicate that you throw a fit. Expectations =/= reality.

>>54235325
If a were playing any GOOD edition of D&D, the Barb would be capped at about 150 HP.

In any case, it breaks the skin but because of the angle it doesn't penetrate the bone. Barb takes -1 penalty on attack rolls since there's blood in his eyes.

>>54238909
>I guess you're a femnists.
I hope this was ironic

again I really don't care you're straight up wrong. the fact that you can read though this thread and think "im still right" just makes you an sperg.

>>54238972
>You can say what you intend to do, you don't say "I hit his head" then when the roll doesn't indicate that you throw a fit.

Literally no one is arguing against that.

Make another strawman. You said don't roleplay before you roll. Roleplaying your attack is part of your action, with both a before and an after.

>>54238970
This, if anyone wants to play a barb or Str fighter in my games he has to be able to lift 1 ton. If he wants to play a monk he has to be able to beat a black belt, if he wants to play a rogue he has to be able to steal all handguns from all the officer's holsters in the police station, if he wants to play a caster, he has to be able to cast actual spells. No half assed shit.

>>54238970
I don't believe you actually run a game at all.

>>54239006
>Literally no one is arguing against that.
My first post, which I didn't quote anyone said this, then you all started quoting me, so yes, literally I said that and literally you were vehemently against it.

>>54238987
>crit
>angle isn't good

okay senpai.

>blood in eye
yeah thats pretty cool.

>>54239029
Uh, no, you're objectively wrong.

You aspergered out of control by saying
>"just because you aimed at the head and you rolled a crit doesn't mean your attack was a headshot"

And now you're backpedaling because you know we're right.

>>54239059
That wasn't my first post, keep trying.

>>54235927
There is non-lethal. Only "pray for it to be less lethal than usual".
This applies specially IRL.

>>54239070
>that wasn't my first post

It doesn't really matter, because that's the one I responded to.

>>54235989
>rules-jerk DM
In RAW, if you declare non-lethal, it just drops the target to 0hp and renders them unconscious.

>>54239090
>because that's the one I responded to
Unless you have a tripname I can't know you're the retard that totally wants what he described to happen or another anon. After being angry at the first I took most replies (specially those misreading my post) as coming from one with the same ideas as that retard.

>>54239116
>In RAW
Reread the anon's, post, he's playing 3.PF, In RAW nonlethal doesn't work as you explained.

>>54239015
I actually run 2 games 1 a week and often have 1 shots for character during their down time. I admit each campaign only has 3 people each but thats 6 people that turn up every week without fail to play. one campaign is story focused one is free roam without any sort of main quest. both are RP focused meaning people can go 1-2 whole sessions without rolling for an attack.

people enjoy this because the best way to play any RPG is to focus on character interaction and creating moments that justify character development.

not monster of the week.

once a kolbold got such good rolls in a fight that even even today the whole party talks to my other group about the one epic kolbold that wouldn't die and how they wish they didn't kill him.

the experienced guy play a Lore master from UA the new guy play an EK. the swole guy plays a warlock and the animator plays a crazy dwarf.

you pick a character that you can ACTUALLY play out. you don't create a character and then expect the DM to tell you how epic it's speech was because you rolled a 20. fuck your speech sucks dick I don't even let you roll either again I roll a D6 and if it's 5 I let you roll if it's a 6 I let your roll with a lower DC.

a good DM knows when to be a dick so the bar isn't lowered.

>>54235541
>Maximized HP
First of all, if it was maximized he should have 420 due to having 24 CON.

Actual:
(12+[7x19])+(20x7)+(20x2) = 325

>>54238102
>If 5 hit points of damage on a guy who only ever has 5 hit points is the same as 50 hit points on a guy who has 50 max hit points, then the same heal spell that replenishes 5 hit points in the weaker guy should replenish 50 hit points in the tougher one.
That's like complaining that a 1 quart bucket can be used to refill a 1 quart bucket, but not a 10 gallon bucket. It's not proportionate: if you have 100 hit points, you have 10x as much stamina and ability to cheat death as someone with 10 hit points. Yes, it takes you longer to recover if you're using the same recovery method, because there is flat-out more missing from you than from the other guy.

>>54238265
Which makes perfect sense after taking a bunch of bruises and knicks. That's still not the same as saying "You can get stabbed through the head with a dart and still be alive." You can look battered and beaten without any of those injuries actually being life-threatening.

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>>54239165
okay

>>54239228
Your Constitution would be 24, not 20, so you're missing an extra 40 HP.

>>54235325
Depends one what the player wants to hear. Game is more than just what the system tells you, it's also what the players and the GM want to play. Some groups might want a gritty game, so the bolt is stuck in the barbs cheek by he still fights due sheer adrenaline but is eventually going to die, some other groups might look for something more overthetop so the barb headbutting the bolt and this bouncing off the barb's skull might sound better for them.

If you're asking you still don't know what your group seeks, work on that first.

>>54239372
>the bolt is stuck in the barbs cheek by he still fights due sheer adrenaline

so what every group wants

>barb headbutting the bolt and this bouncing off the barb's skull

so what lazy GM's and players who have never experienced the first want

all jokes aside a good post this is the obvious logical apporach and yet no one had said it yet.

The dart flys from your hand striking the savage beneath the cheek bone. You here the wet crack of bone as it punctures his lower sinus . he is momentarily taken aback but swiftly removes the dart casting it aside blood pumping from the wound though not fatal it will affect him ( apply the fatigued modifiers to the barbarian for combat as the collapsed sinus will affect his breathing) roll for initiative

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>>54235389
>hit points are an abstraction
>>54235501
>well thats obvious. but a "CRIT" shouldn't be fluffed as a miss

"The puny dart flies towards the barbarian as he guffaws condescendingly, instinctively relying on his animalistic reflexes to easily dodge it... but as the barbarian arrogantly turns back his head to face his opponent, he visibly winces in pain, as blood begins to trickle down a newly formed line going from the corner of his mouth to the end of his cheek; this scar will remain for the rest of his life. Dumbfounded for an infinitesimally small moment, the barbarian meets eyes with his new foe, but not with condescension this time. No words are exchanged, but the shift in stance and facial expression speak more clearly than any human language ever could 'you are a worthy opponent, prepare for my best.'"

>>54235716
>hp bloat edition: 2.0

Ah that explains it.

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>>54235325
Pic related

>>54236349

Heal spell could also be a morale boost to keep going. Boromir has 3 arrows in him. He's going down, Merry and Pippin come running down the hill, and as the Orcs start to move to them, Boromir remembers his duty/remorse for his argument with Frodo/anything, and gets another rush of energy to keep going. His wounds didn't magically seal up like Wolverine, he just got another burst of stamina and got back into the fight.

>>54240818
That's how the Warlord class worked in 4e, but then people bitched about the Warlord "shouting people back to full health" and it has never been done again.

Now it's back to "you restore meat points which heal for no adequately explained reason but fuck you, it's magic, we ain't gotta explain shit."

I fucking hate this hobby sometimes.

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This was never not going to devolve into another iteration of the meat-points debate, so I'll just leave this here.

>>54237646
or you could just play 4e

>>54240343
too long desu. As a DM I do stuff similar to this, but players get bored quickly. Brief descriptions keep them occupied and sound cooler anyway: >>54235371 is best.

>>54235325
>shows the clip of the terminator being shot and spitting out the bullet from his mouth

>>54235325
Te dart lodges itself in the barbarian's skull. The barbarian turns to face his would-be attacker with a burning glint in his eye, or maybe the gleam of blood; none are alive who can say for sure.
He takes the dart out of his skull with a grunt of effort, blood seeping from his wound. The wound is rather painful, but by no means will the barbarian die from it if he treats it soon.
Before that, though, he readies his arm, drawing his enchanted seeking throwing axe, his whole soul whispering it's desires to the blade.
"My turn." he says to the rogue with 110 HP.

>>54242525
True, though players tend to have a bit more patience when it comes to descriptions of crits.

>>54236935
That noise is super cool.

>>54237468
Fucking read the actual epics, you uncultured shit

>>54237510
Irish epics were basically full of meatpoints and healing potions.

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>>54235325
OP, you'd be amazed at the kind of damage the human head can tank and survive.

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This is why I play GURPS!

>HP is an abstraction, so not every 'hit' is necessarily a hit
>AC is an abstraction, so not every 'miss' is necessarily a miss
How is this allowed?

>>54236600
WHO. IS. SHE.

This is why I like the 40k RP rules system. You're all perfectly fine until you hot zero wounds. It's all abstract, then once you hit -1, it's deep cuts, loss of limbs, etc.

>>54235325
Why does it actually have to be an issue?

I get the pacing problems in bloated HP, but for realism, if we're playing fantasy superheroes, why not let the better characters be able to be hit with dozens of arrows and still stand?

Then, when he walks out of a fight with 14 arrows jutting from his back, he needs that much more healing because he's a badass that tanked that much damage.

It's not appropriate in every game or mood, but there are definitely worlds where that shit is cool and who cares if it's logical or not?

>>54235325
He realizes almost too late what is happening and jerks his head, turning a lethal skull penetrating into a deep gash through his scalp.

>>54242938
Those two things are not only not contradictory, they are necessary for the game to make any sense. Your lack of creativity is not a failure of the game system, it is a personal deficiency for which you are inadequately ashamed.

>>54242948
TSUKASA WACHI

>>54235325
Dart embeds character in the head. It hurt, but it's not even unrealistic for an average man to survive a direct hit from a dart, let alone a Conan-esque hero.

>>54237120
>As you start getting visibly hot and bothered by this prospect, the monster suddenly becomes uncomfortable with this situation

>>54236470
>you understand that level 20 characters don't have to be almost immortal
Sure, you can run a strictly realistic setting, but if you want to balance martials against casters AND you want your casters to have access to anything remotely fun, making the martial almost demigods is the way to go. Of course I'm not talking strictly about HP, that would be boring as hell, but they still need to be able to survive whatever an equal-level caster can throw at least once.

>>54243962
you're missing the point that the game is less exciting if potentially dangerous weapons pose no actual threat

>>54241528
this is how this should be working.

>>54236200
That's not how poison works, you dingus

>>54239151
>you don't create a character and then expect the DM to tell you how epic it's speech was because you rolled a 20

You fundamentally don't seem to understand how this game works so I'll teach you son.

>Player declares an action such as making a speech to try to persuade a king to let the group use the king's army to defend the pass against Orcs.
>GM decides if a dice roll is needed and if so sets a DC value and asks for a roll
>Player makes the roll with any further modifiers the GM has set.
>If the roll equals or beats the DC value the player has passed and succeeded in his action. If not he has failed in his action.
>The consequence is narrated and play continues.

So if a player with a character with high charisma attempted to give a speech that the GM thought would be unconvincing he could set a hard DC of 20 and give the player a penalty on the roll but if they rolled they'd still use their characters skill, so could still pass if they had high charisma or got lucky.

If a player gave a speech the GM thought was a good idea but had a low charisma he could set the DC to easy, say 10 and give the player a bonus on the roll but the players character would still be making the speech at their low charisma value so may well fail still.

The GM can also always declare that a dice roll isn't needed and the action either happens or fails. This is necessary sometimes however a GM has to be careful when doing this as the GM's role is to be a fair arbiter of the games mechanics and if he arbitrarily decides things too often the game can devolve into 'mother may I' and endless GM fiat.

For the most part players aren't expected to actually be incredibly charismatic to play a character with high charisma anymore than a player is meant to be strong to play a barbarian. There's unfortunately a lot of bad GM's out there who arbitrarily decide a course of action is stupid and punish the player for it therefore not allowing them to have fun, or grow as a player.

>>54241528
So, basically...
>Life is a spectrum
>For complete novices, it is binary - alive or dead
>The more experienced you get, the more states you can fit inbetween

>>54235389
Then what does healing do?

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>>54246327
Well, according to 1e >>54241528 hit points are a combination of literal wounds, vigor, will-to-fight, battle awareness etc... so I assume it restores your wounds, vigor, will-to-fight, and/or battle awareness, in any combination that makes sense at the time. Heck, in greek and norse mythos, fate/wyrd is a palpable force, so it could restore that too if you're using inspiration from those mythos (hint: if you're running a "standard fantasy setting" you are using greek/norse inspiration.)

>>54241528
>>54244957
this is terrible though. i want to know whether my character just dodged the proverbial bullet through experience or whether he got hit and is just badass enough to toughen it out.

>>54246849
>...so I assume it...
see this is not good enough for some of us. we want to know.

>>54235371
fpbp

It speaks volumes of how utterly shitty place /tg/ has become that we can still spin such a long thread of bullshit on this subject.

>>54246950
>we want to know.

Then play an even crunchier system like GURPS which more accurately models hit locations , damage, shock , wounds etc or house rule that in yourself to D&D somehow. The consensus is most people don't want that for D&D as hitpoints are a simple enough abstraction.

>>54246950
Irrelevant to the game mechanics. You can decide for yourself beyond that.

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>>54246950
>...so I assume it...
>see this is not good enough for some of us. we want to know.
Then maybe you should play video games and CYOA books instead. The whole reason that TTRPG's have a DM/GM is so that we can take advantage of the human capacity for qualitative judgement.

Granted, I won't knock video games and CYOA books. I did a lot of both throughout my childhood and adulthood, they're awesome, but needing a clear cut, "X-crunch will be represented with Y-fluff every time no matter what" kind of defeats the whole point of TTRPG's, or at-least negates their greatest strength, and turns them into watered down versions of video-games that you play with other people... which are much more common now than they were in the 90's so what's the point?

>>54246994
>Then play an even crunchier system like GURPS which more accurately models hit locations , damage, shock , wounds etc or house rule that in yourself to D&D somehow.
pretty sure that there is a sweet spot inbetween.

>>54239165
>420
DUDE

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>>54246950
>i want to know whether my character just dodged the proverbial bullet through experience or whether he got hit and is just badass enough to toughen it out.
Well, assuming your DM is actually describing things, rather than just acting as a human Text-To-Speech machine for the DMG, Monster Manual, and Module, you will be able to tell on a case-by-case basis, because he will tell you.

>>54247187
nonsense. the game mechanics are supposed to inform me what happens, instead of forcing me to do another GM asspull, every time anew.

>>54247188
this is likewise a gross misunderstanding of a certain aspect of the rules: they provide a baseline that is meant to bind both players and the GM, thus providing greater meaning to statistics. if i have a PC with high Constitution (or with such an NPC), I went them to get hit and absorb the wound without too much negative effect. if I play a skilled warrior, I want them to successfully roll to dodge/block the attack, thus providing me tangible reward for statting my character out that way.

I want that distinction and D&D does not provide it.

>>54235501
Barb slams into a wall/tree leaving a nice cartoony impact crater and after a brief moment peels off landing face first on the ground. They then lurch upwards dusting themselves off, again spit their own blood to the ground, and are now visibly upset.

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>>54247221
>this is likewise a gross misunderstanding of a certain aspect of the rules: they provide a baseline that is meant to bind both players and the GM
>rules...bind both players and the GM
>rules bind the GM
Gonna have to respectfully disagree with you there champ.

>>54247219
...which is then another asspull, depending entirely on what the GM feels like at a given moment and not based on a mechanical interplay of the two combattants aka it's L.A.M.E.

>>54247242
show up to a D&D game with the rules for CoC and call it a heavily houseruled D&D campaign. in 99% of cases you will have no game at all. the truth is that a GM can only get away with so much GM fiat/houseruling until players start to balk.

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>>54247221
>providing me tangible reward for statting my character out that way
Translation
>I want to be rewarded for system mastery

>the rules: they provide a baseline that is meant to bind both players and the GM
Translation
>I want the DM to be just as bound by the rules as all the players are

At this point, I feel like you've learned so many wrong things about the zen of TTRPG that they've all become hard-wired. What you call TTRPG and what I call TTRPG are just two completely different things that share nothing more than a name.

I could go on an old-man-rant about how "your type" is destroying RPG's, but it's to late for that kind of vitriol. Enjoy your hobby, and I'll enjoy mine. As such, I really can't offer any more advice other than "play an MMO or a super-crunchy game other than D&D."

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>>54247278
I feel like if you ever played Paranoia you'd have an aneurysm.

Pic sort of related. It's not Paranoia, but it's a similar sentiment.

>>54247221
Yes, the game mechanics tell you what numbers go up and what numbers go down. It's your job as DM to determine how it's described.

>>54247278
>show up to a D&D game with the rules for CoC and call it a heavily houseruled D&D campaign
We're not talking about showing up to the table with a completely different system, we're talking about the GM making judgement calls about what the crunch represents in fluff, and maybe bending the rules to create a cool opponent that veteran players aren't familiar with the MM-statblock of.
>>54247278
>not based on a mechanical interplay of the two combattants
Look bro, if you want a game where 100% of an entire fight's fluff can be 100% derived from the mechanics of the participants, with no judgement calls to be made whatsoever.... D&D is not what you are looking for. Heck, at that point I'm not sure any TTRPG out there is what you're looking for. Even the most fiddly crunchy math-fest with rules for everything still relies on some level of abstraction... because... you know... we're grown men sitting at a table pretending to be elves, dwarves, and wizards: a bit of imagination (AKA "asspulling") is expected to be par for the course.

>>54247362
>at that point I'm not sure any TTRPG out there is what you're looking for.
You'd be looking for Riddle of Steel/Song of Swords/other TRoS derivatives, or maybe even Sword's Path - Glory.

>>54247345
>comparing a literal gag game, and an incredibly rules lite narrative game to a crunchy as shit game.
Gee whiz its almost like that's like comparing oranges to a rusted out antique pocket watch.

>>54247389
>and an incredibly rules lite narrative game
Do you mean the picture? Because that's not at all what it is. Or did you mean that to also be a description of Paranoia, and just worded it incredibly badly?

>>54235501
>"CRIT" shouldn't be fluffed as a miss

That sure is an opinion.

Yup.

>>54246950
>i want to know

So play Gurps or Exalted or some shit

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>>54235325
The Barbarian is Russian.

>>54247315
>>I want to be rewarded for system mastery
actually, you're an idiot just for thinking that.

>>I want the DM to be just as bound by the rules as all the players are
it's another mistranslation though. I want the stats of my characters to have gravity.

>I really can't offer any more advice oth
I have been gaming since 1984, I am not under the impression that I need your advice.

>I feel like if you ever played Paranoia you'd have an aneurysm.
I have been GMing it and possess the entire 1st and 2nd edition. Fave books are Alpha Complexities and People's Glorious Revolution.

>>54247354
well, when hit points go down it's not the same as when mana points or whatever have you go down. two different statistics for two different things, creating two different descriptions by the GM.

however, D&D mixes meatpoints, luck, skill and god-knows-what-else in hitpoints and that's bad. it's fine for early 1970s iterations of roleplaying but games should have evolved beyond that.

>>54247362
so why not mix hitpoints and spellpoints and let the GM make judgement calls on what happens as a PC loses them? it's just bad to not keep certain things separate.

>>54247362
>Look bro, if you want a game where 100% of an entire fight's fluff can be 100% derived from the mechanics of the participants
again, I am pretty sure that there is a sweet pot between that and D&D. rest of arguing a strawman has been snipped.

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>>54247623
>two different statistics for two different things, creating two different descriptions by the GM.
Why do two different statistics have to "create" EXACTLY two descriptions? Why not three possible descriptions, or four possible descriptions... or you know, all the myriad possibilities in the mind of the human being capable of making qualitative judgement calls who has by consensus of the group been appointed GM?
if 1statistic+1roll=1(and only 1)description, then why have a DM describing things at all? Why not program a computer to do it for you, and perhaps add some graphics to make it flashy, and use this newfangled thing called the internet to network it and play with your friends.

TLDR: what you are describing is something of value, but it is not TTRPG's.

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>>54246950
>{GM making a judgement call) see this is not good enough for some of us. we want to know

>>54247221
>rules: they provide a baseline that is meant to bind both players and the GM


>>54247623
>two different statistics for two different things, creating two different descriptions by the GM.


>>54247660
>weet pot between that and D&D
>arguing a strawman

Hate to break it to you, but from the sound of what you're saying, what you're looking for is not a middle ground by anybody's definition. It sounds like you're looking for the crunchiest possible crunch-fest that ever crunched, where the DM acts as little more than a messenger between the rolls and the proscribed description.

That's not necesarily a bad thing, but why the everloving hell are you playing D&D, and why are you in a thread that's obviously about D&D from the mechanical keywords used in the OP?

>>54247623
>actually, you're an idiot just for thinking that.
Anon, we're playing a game. It's possible to be good at it. Even if we're not talking about a broken system.

I was under the assumption that Beowulf embelished all his fucking stories.

>>54247764
You read it wrong - he was an idiot for thinking that's what the other dude meant.

>>54235943
1E doesn't use flat 3d6.

>>54235325

He precisely aims and throws his dart, striking his target in the temple. The point digs loudly into the bone as it goes by, tearing a strip of flesh loose in a wash of blood. Truly, any ordinary man would have been killed outright 10 times over by such a blow.

But Granyor was no ordinary man....

>>54235325
could always also have the crit's effect include stunning the barbarian (punctured his inner ear) or some other debilitating effect that would then make additional damage easier on subsequent turns.

>>54235325
The dart lodges in the barbarians skull with a SPOINGG. The barbarian flexes his thews and turns his wrathful gaze upon you.

The solution is to stop playing D&D

>>54235927
That's retarted, just because you claim is non-lethal doesn't mean it is non-lethal. Specially if you are a monk.

>>54236051
Worst GM of all times. I say something, and get a crit, then it happens.

fuck off

>>54235325
Make it hit him in the eye, rendering the foe half-blind.