Nasuverse Thread. For discussing how Type-Moon's pet universe

>>54233665
>Fate/Zero showed that battles between Masters during a HGW can be interesting in their own right, and this kind of stuff would be vital for a campaign.
Fate/Apocrypha is a seven-on-seven team deathmatch. Wiki says that most of Team Red will abdicate the war and give their Servants to Shirou, but there's still all the Masters on the other side to get involved in the fighting.

>Also, what do you think the state of the Nasuverse would be in 2104?
IIRC, didn't Zelretch say that we're a hundred years too early to fight ORT in Fate/Strange Fake? I'm gonna go with "probably fighting ORT".

>>54233665

Could there be a family style of magecraft more gross than Matou/Makiri?

>>54233755
*looks at the stuff that the Clinton circle is rumored to get up to IRL*

Raping, murdering, and drinking the blood of children in order to extend the magician's life, and also curry the favor of the Divine Spirit Moloch?

>>54233755
More gross than Crest Worms? Sure, self-mutilation to enhance the capability of the Family's mana-drawing techniques, and using blood-based magic.

How bout a Magus family that believes that the reason there were so many holy and demonic swords throughout history because the form of the weapon itself possess some connection to The Root, and thus the path there is to perfect and enhance the form of a sword?

Sword Magi, if you will.

>>54234299

That family would fucking love Emiya Shirou.

"Sword" is a legit element though, by that reckoning.

>>54233823
Go back to info wars, you conspiracy loony. Enjoy freaking out about pizzagate and chemtrails somewhere else.

>>54234496
He was using it as an example, not how he said "rumored." What's wrong with using conspiracies as inspiration for fictional stuff?

So about the Grail War of 2104 using Servants from 1900-1950 that was mentioned in the previous thread....

>Caster: Houdini.
An escape artist and scourge of spirit mediums in life, Caster can't abide by the magic of the holy grail war, the contradiction of his existence irritating him to no end. He reluctantly fights with his own brand of misdirection and physical enhancement magic at his Master's urging.

What would be a good stat set for him?

>>54234555

What is our stat spread again; Strength, Endurance, Agility, Magic, Luck, NP?

Houdini should have relatively middling magic power, but surprisingly high Agility and Endurance for a caster - he was an escape artist after all. Skills would reflect that as well.

Not sure on the name, but his NP should let him go all "Now You See Me" on his enemies. Not necessarily a Reality Marble - but the ability to burn mana to basically assemble any overly elaborate escape stage turned deathtrap in an instant.

>>54235167
>Not sure on the name, but his NP should let him go all "Now You See Me" on his enemies. Not necessarily a Reality Marble - but the ability to burn mana to basically assemble any overly elaborate escape stage turned deathtrap in an instant.

Hm. What's interesting is that that's similar to the base Caster Class skills.

>Territory Creation
"A Caster-class Skill. It is the Skill to build a special terrain that is advantageous to oneself as a magus, such as for the purpose of collecting mana."

>Item Construction
" A Caster-class Skill. It is the Skill to manufacture magical items, from implements of war to items for daily use. Also, this Skill requires time to gather components and manufacture items"

So would his NP be his ability to set up a deathtrap in his terrain that he can easily escape from?

>>54235293

Yeah, I was thinking of something like an outgrowth of those natural skills. Houdini is the greatest escape artist and one of the most famous stage magicians of all time - thus the "crystallized mystery" which represents his legend would be his most elaborate escapes, stuff like the chinese water cell or being buried alive.

Also, did some research on him - Houdini was actually a believer in the supernatural, but was jaded because all he found were frauds, and thus became a debunker. This might lend more depth to his characterization. He'd be happy to have come back after death as a spirit, but probably skeptical of the Holy Grail and its powers, and resentful of groups like the Mage Association and Church for keeping the real magic under wraps despite his attempts to find it. He also was a bit of a pilot, and thus would probably have a touch of riding skill - and is credited with the first airplane flight in australia.

>>54235544
So, Something like...

Caster
Strength: B
Endurance: B
Agility: B
Magical Power: C
Luck: C

Noble Phantasm
The Stage Is Set: Escape Or Death
Caster constructs a complex deathtrap in his created territory in the form of a Bounded Field, based off of the famous escapes he made during his lifetime. Once triggered, the deathtrap will be visited upon all the targets within the bounded field, and they, along with Caster should he be in the field, must escape it. Caster's Master, by nature of their contract, is immune to Escape or Death.

>>54235766
Nice
Repost the others will you please?

>>54235901
Sure.

>Rider: Red Baron
A true knight of the skies, Rider is chivalrous, honorable, and respectful to friend and foe alike. Enjoying a flight more than anything else in the world, he is also a master of aerial strategy. He engages in battle using his Fokker Triplane to outspeed and outmaneuver his enemies. He is of course, perfectly loyal to his Master.

Strength: C
Endurance: C
Agility: A
Magical Power: C
Luck: C
Noble Phantasm: A

Noble Phantasm
Ringleader Of The Flying Circus: Fokker Triplane
The triplane that Rider spent his last days fighting in,it has been enhanced by Rider's legend to become more than a mere model of plane, but an extension of Rider's own being. Rider may summon the Triplane in an instant, and both the fuel and bullets are unlimited, running off of Rider's own Magical Energy. When the true name is invoked, the attributes of it increase far beyond Rider's original parameters for a short time.


>Assassin: Gavrilo Princip
A nervous bumbler with no true combat experience, or even assassination experience, Assassin's effectiveness in the Grail War is entirely determined by his amazing luck, leading to coincidences such as encountering enemy servants when weakened or tripping when a high-level attack is aimed at him. He's not very confident in his skills, but his Master has faith in him as the killer of seventeen million.

Strength: E
Endurance: E
Agility: D
Magical Power: E
Luck: EX
Noble Phantasm: D

Noble Phantasm
The Shot Heard Round The World: With One Bullet Seventeen Million Are Killed
Assassin fires a single bullet from his FN Model 1910. Upon striking the target, a curse representing the deadly consequences of the only kill Assassin ever made in life is activated. The target's attributes are all lowered slightly, except Luck, which becomes the lowest possible rank. Until the curse is excised by high-level magic, or Assassin is killed, these effects will remain.

>>54235919
>Berserker: Ungern-Sternberg
Taken by Madness Enhancement, Berserker's attitude is that of a vicious, merciless tyrant. He is sometimes incomprehensible due to fits of insanity, but he is never by any means a non-threat. His status as a Berserker has raised his stats and given him an advantage in physical attributes over the other servants. However, while he is not completely mindless, Madness Enhancement has robbed him of caution and strategy, requiring his Master to keep a close eye on his actions.

>Lancer: Winston Churchill
A commander of great renown and charisma, Lancer is no less at home on the battlefield. He possesses great tactical knowledge and employs it considerably in the Grail War. Due to his penchant for speechcraft, his Master's confidence never wavers, and is able to boost his own abilities via convincing himself of his own determination.

>Archer: White Death
A sniper with an unparalleled kill count, Archer is incredibly competent at ranged battles, due to his high accuracy, concealment skills, and decent luck. Master and Servants alike are vulnerable targets when viewed down his iron sights. Despite the many deaths his legend is built with, he's an incredibly friendly fellow who sees his participation in the grail war as merely his duty, and his Master as a valued comrade.

>Saber: Charles Hornby
A servant formed from representing the spirit of the British army, Saber represents many beginnings and endings. Striking swiftly with intense speed, Saber excels at both the opening charge and the finishing blow. Due to the nature of her riding ability fighting upon vehicles is also no challenge for her. The nature of her existence as a heroic spirit is slightly confusing for her, but she shrugs it off when her Master calls her to serve in her duty.

(Modified Saber's description to be the obligatory Saberface in accordance with last thread.)

>>54234449
Wasn't "Sword" just Shirou's element because of Avalon?

>>54236528

Yeah, it made both his origin and element Sword - but that still means it's conceptually possible.

>>54233665
>Nasuverse thread
>only discusses Fateshit
for what reason OP? Oh yeah, you're a fucking secondary, I understand now.

>>54237226

Go home hipster and find games for your increasingly smaller circles of audience.

>>54237233
>hipster
is that the best insult you could come up with? what is this, kindergarten?

>>54237255

Fuck, hipster is hardly even an insult anymore - it's just a statement of fact.

How dare people be interested in the most popular, highest quality and thus best described and understood works? Fictional setting elitism totally makes sense and we obviously want to create the smallest circle of discussion possible by sticking to more obscure works with shittier adaptations, right?

It's nonsense. Start your own discussion about Tsukihime or Kara No Kyokai if that's your thing. don't start picking fights with people because "you liked it before it was cool" and it's more likely people actually recognize Fate elements because it's popular and makes money.

>>54237226
But Tsukihime is shit, anon.

>>54237613
lol you're just jealous its characters are beefier than Fates

>>54233729
Never use the TM Wiki for shit. Also, Strange/Fake does this much better.

Trust me.

>>54237314
A Nasuverse game should be able to run Rakkyo, Mahoyo, DDD, and Tsukihime before it can run Fate. Those stories have a wide range of abilities and quirky tricks while still being on a relatively sane power band. If you can make a system that balances Aoko Aozaki with 30% Arc with Ryougi Shiki with psycho oppai loli imouto, you can then balance Mordred with BB with Gilgilman with Dr. P.

Wanking over historical figures without designing a system for the Pokemon Trainers who love them is putting the cart before the horse.

>>54237314
It is literally a fact that this is a nasuverse thread but instead people are just discussing Fate, which is way more limited in scope and game potential. Why waste your time on something that has much less creativity behind it instead of something like the stuff that is discussed in Kara no Kyokai and Mahou Tsukai no Yoru (this is ignoring Tsukihime of course due to what >>54237613 said)

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>>54237668
No, I'm angry the only good scene that does something interesting with the whole vampire setting is never acknowledged properly again. That, and generic vampires with extremely high power levels is a lot less interesting a concept to discuss than Japanese Celebrity Deathmatch.

Are we going to discuss mechanics or is this just a Create a Servant thread with added butthurt?

>All this KnK/Tsukihime shitflinging
But I agree, limiting it to merely HGW's is a waste of potential.

So, /tg/, how would you run the masterpiece that is Prisma Illya?

Magical Burst is too edgy and so doesn't really suit the tone, so maybe just OVA?

>>54237956
>Japanese Celebrity Deathmatch.
That's exactly what Fate is
Everyone looks young and beautiful, with total disregard to the legends and myths they're depicting.

Stupid ass SHIT I tell ya'

>>54238234
The strange new ways of butchering a myth or historical figure is half the fun. It wouldn't be as interesting if characters were what you expect. It's only a problem when it comes down to saberface20

>>54238278
Usually I would agree with you, but Fate is just too much. It's the same shit over n' over again.

>It wouldn't be as interesting if characters were what you expect
It's not interesting when they all look the same either, anon.

>>54238278
>get into fate expecting badass bearded Gilgamesh
>is pasty white supermodel with a low IQ

dropped

>>54234496
What I loved most is how it was a pizza place used in that particularly inane conspiracy theory.
Couldn't they have come up with something cooler while they were pulling shit out of their asses? Secret white house bunker? Privately owned Skyscraper fortress? I mean, come on.
I've even BEEN to that pizza place and it's pizza is so not worth noting that I actually forgot about it until that hilarious shit came out.

>>54238448
It doesn't have the "They're doing it in broad daylight!" outrage appeal. People would have long forgotten about it by now otherwise

>>54237756
>Never use the TM Wiki for shit.
Fuck, is that true? They get everything wrong?

>>54238388
If westerners were at the helm of FSN, it'd just be a bunch of bearded dudes realistically swinging their swords at each other while while making blunt references to their past lives, saying absolutely nothing interesting as a result.

>>54238601
There isn't a lot of editorial oversight on that wiki and some info is handed down second or thirdhand. You always want to hit up TMDict first, since that's firsthand translations. There's also the Complete Materials PBworks for more translation of firsthand world building material.

For Grand Order material, you might need to go to Beast's Lair or god forbid, Reddit unless you speak moon.

Primate Murder sounds like an awesome metal band name.

>>54238742
Thank you very much

>>54238667

Heh, would you look at this self hating weeaboo

>>54238667
I prefer the realism of western fiction to that of the unrealistic escapism of the east.

>>54239483
Giving the characters beards doesn't make it any more real or any less escapism. That's just a demographic thing

>>54238667
Luckily, westerner FSN would never be a thing because VNs don't exist out there.

>>54239729

I think you missed the point entirely.

>>54239838
What point? Realism and escapism aren't even opposites.

>>54239878

That's not even what he was getting at.

>>54239483
>all western fiction is super realistic
>all eastern fiction is escapist
fucking kill yourself. you are retarded you drooling troglodyte

>>54239890
He was getting at exactly what I said he was. That's what the words he wrote mean. Can you read?

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weebs are getting mad

>>54239838
You never had a valid point. I'm saying "western fiction" isn't any more realistic or less escapism than "eastern fiction". Swinging swords instead of shooting beams of light or characters being young are questionable examples of what was said
It's basically the same as saying "Killing a dragon is only escapism if he doesn't wear a helmet". It's just nonsense

>>54239896
>>54239936
False flagging baitposter please leave

>>54239940
Eastern fiction is leagues more unrealistic than the west, which is far more grounded. Anime is very hyperactive. This isn't a bad thing. Not at all. Why do you think Anime is so entertaining?

>>54239936
you keep using that word. i don't think you know what that means.

>>54239906
Ummm, no. I said I just prefer the realism of the west. The east is all over the place.

The West in general produces more coherent works. But then you get certain gems like Ghibli.

>>54239970
>implying im falseflagging
also
>anime is all of eastern fiction
fuck off.

>>54240005
>the West produces more coherent works
a huge generalization that isn't even neccssiarly true.

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>>54240005
>Ghibli

We can learn much from him.

>>54239970
I don't know if you aren't familiar with western fiction or eastern fiction, but to argue if that either superheroes or ninja magic is more realistic than the other is fucking retarded

>>54240026
It's historically true though. The west has defined literature in all its facets to a far greater degree than anywhere else.

This doesn't mean the east can't produce works rivaling it, it's just in the greater minority.

>>54240005
>>54240036
>Ghibli
Tries to do what Disney and the others do, but they're much better at it than him.

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>>54240036
>its another anon posts the shitty ANN-tier translation meme image episode

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>westerners talking about eastern literature when they've literally never read any of it

>>54240040
No, you're right. It's how they work the frame, not the picture.

But then again, animation can rarely depict any sense.

>>54240053
I'd argue that Ghibli produces far finer works than Disney.

>>54240051
you can't define an entire culture's literature just because you spew /lit/ tier arguments. have you ever read mori ogai? osamu dazai? akutagawa? the tale of genji? any classic Japanese literature? no? then shut the fuck up.

>>54240109

Except he's not wrong. Western influence is everywhere. It's pointless to compare East and West, as its all based on personal preference.

But to say that the East rivals the West in all totality? That's a bit foolish.

>Nasuverse thread
>just Fate and bitching about Fate

Glad to see not much has changed since I got out of this stuff.

>>54240168
It's just Fate fags getting triggered

>muh realism where there is none

>>54238667
>Zerksalot pulls a stop sign out of the ground and activates Knight of Honor on it.
>Nothing happens to it because magic isn't realistic and can't turn ordinary things into powerful Noble Phantasms

>Gil pulls out his 200lb battleaxe, exactly as the legend says he used
>Immediately throws a disc because a human realistically can't use a 200lb weapon

>Iskandar swings his sword at Zerksalot and his completely normal stop sign
>It breaks upon impact because bronze weapons can't stand up to modern steel

>Kotomine tells Hundred Faced Hassan to sacrifice one of himself to make everyone think he's out of the running
>He dies because having severe DID doesn't mean that you can split into a hundred different people with wildly different body types.

Yeah, western Fate would be great. Super realistic.

Could be worse. Could be arguing about waifus.

>>54240235
I still can't identify what "western" story telling tradition this realistic fate is emulating

>anon mentions western fiction being more "grounded"
>fate fags lose their shit

You might as well argue that God exists

>>54233665
stop forcing this shit into a general, jesus L christ

Fuck it, burn this thread to the ground.

What if instead of a HGW with 7 masters and 7 servants, you had one where 7 masters were fused with 7 heroic spirits.

>>54244118
banter, relationship between master and servant, and possible betrayals are cornerstones of grail war drama, though

>>54235952
How Do you feel about this for saber
Her stats are all bs and cs with class focus being the bs
But this is her NP
Home Before Christmas
Basically a passive that activates when she's in a fight at the beginning it brings her stats up to as and bs but as the fight drags on they go back down to bs and cs then ds and cs then all ds then ds and fs
Thus she's really strong I the beginning of a battle but if you can weather the initial blows she gets bogged down

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>>54244153

I would tend to agree, but people seem really caught up on this "you can't do anything interesting with HGW idea".

>>54244237
because PCs are stupid and can't do drama to save their lives

>>54244237
It's not that you can't do anything interesting with a HGW, it's what makes an HGW (read: the story of Fate VNs/LNs) interesting is at cross purposes with what makes a standard RPG interesting or workable.

First off, the HGW is PvP by its very nature. So either the system needs to accommodate that, like Shinobigami, or it needs to contrive a reason for everyone to be on the same side, like Apocrypha.

Second, people want to play both a Servant and a Master, but that requires dealing with the fundamental imbalance of Servant and Master power. It also mean dealing with people running multiple characters at once, which is the worst hell. There are really only two ways around that: everyone plays one type of character and the other is a part of their sheet or the game runs on troupe play like Ars Magica.

Third, the actual cockfighting with legends part of Fate has a completely different set of assumptions than the weirdo wizards doing urban fantasy shit part of Fate and the normie with random supernatural power stumbles into the occult part of Fate. This is a matter of tiering characters, like UA's Street/Global/Cosmic or D&D 4e's Heroic/Paragon/Epic. Depending on where you stand, a HGW can hit one or all of those tiers.

At the end of the day, the simplest thing to do would be to make a F/GO RPG. In order to pull people into Gacha Hell, Desire Works wrestled with these problems and found a workable solution. It is a standard as fuck RPG setup, but everyone is a Servant. The second simplest would be to run an "Everything but the HGW" Nasuverse game in whatever you use for urban fantasy gaming. Unknown Armies 3e is surprisingly fitting, if you replace Adept magic with homegrown magus bloodlines/styles. Avatar channels are attempts to reach the Root.

>>54244231
So, since Sabers tend towards good stats,

Saber
Strength B
Endurance B
Agility B
Magic Power B
Luck C
Noble Phantasm B

Noble Phantasm
Home Before Christmas: Dousing The Lamps
Saber may activate this Noble Phantasm upon her first attack of a battle, granting that single strike effectiveness beyond A rank. Saber's parameters will also be increased beyond her normal limits. This Noble Phantasm lasts only for a short while in combat, however. Once it wears off, Saber's fatigue will slowly be increased to the point where she cannot raise her sword. Dousing The Lamps may be used twice in a battle, though the intense amounts of magical energy consumed while doing so will render Saber unconcious.

>>54244960
>hit twice really hard
>literally faint
What a shitty Servant.

>>54245008
They're from the 1900's, did you expect them to measure up to Hercules and Gilgamesh?

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>>54245035
If they aren't worth making a servant out of, don't make them a servant.

Fucking nufatefags, I swear.

>>54245072

I mean, Mata Hari and Phantom Of The Opera are pretty middling, even if some of that is because >Assassin - though if you roll back a century plenty of Servants are decent.

Not counting OCs, of course.

>>54244697
All those issues can be adressed with Monsters and Other Childish Things

>>54245072
The whole concept of this undertaking was a bunch of servants from the early 1950s being summoned to a future grail war.

The premise is inherently fanfiction, they key is to avoid going full autism along the way, and end up with a kind of decent "what if?"

>>54245035
Shitty as in boring, not just power levels. Hitting really hard and fast is not super exciting, unless the character's gimmick is being that damn good with a weapon that their NP is personal skill. See: Billy the Kid, Okita Souji, REGEND. "I hit real hard twice with a weapon" needs to be making reality it's bitch if it's going to be an NP.

>>54245174
Any heavily narrative system worth a damn can do it in the same way any heavily narrative system can do anything; winging it.

Go play poker dice somewhere else, Stolze.

If you think the other nasu properties are a better fit then describe and discuss them. This isn't /a/, the burden of information is on you, we didn't come to your board asking stupid questions.

Tell us why and we can work from there and get a discussion going.

>>54245271
>heavily narrative
Brought it up mostly because you have 1 1/2 player characters and only one of them is worth a damn in a fight during most circumstances

tsukihime > fate

>>54245285
reported faggot. you stop samefagging now

>>54245227
Oh. Well, what would you suggest?

>>54245309
Announcing your reports is against the rules too

>>54245287

Thematically sure, but the actual mechanics of Monsters don't necessarily fit (monster hit locations, skill/location names, other stuff) - you'd get better results applying the ideas to a more grounded and non-specialized ruleset like Wild Talents.

And I mean actually applying the ideas, not whatever the fuck somebody who was clearly high was thinking trying to cross those two systems over.

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>>54245299
How very hipster of you anon.

You're correct

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>>54245299
At least Fate gets new stuff.

>>54245323
>not whatever the fuck somebody who was clearly high was thinking trying to cross those two systems over.
MaOCT has a whole chapter explaining how to build MaOCT characters in WT. It's ultimately just a simplified, flavored WT hack. Finding a golden mean between the two would actually be great for a Fate game

>>54245340
Only because other people have taken over the writing for Nasu and everyone just wants to rehash the same shit over and over but with their own epic twists. Remember when servants having more than 1 NP were considered very rare? Now if your snowflake OC doesn't have at least 3 they are shit tier.

>>54245309
The fuck you on about I was telling him to put up or fuck off

Fate runs on multiversal bullshit, so there is no reason your grail war has to be a battle royale. It could be an actual war. Against the Grail itself. Pick a universe where Gilgamesh actually succeeded in getting the grail, or it's Evil became so overwhelming it just fucking exploaded washing corruption and monsters over the world. Now the mage families have to cast aside the masquerade and seize power openly to martial their forces against the Grail itself in order to prevent the absolute destruction of the human race. PC's become the agents or magi of various families who vye with and against one another to fight the Grails growing influence and forces which spreads only desolation and death.

>>54245354

Yeah, I know, but as someone who has played a lot of WT the conversion from monsters is just unnecessarily icky. But that's Sidekick in general, it's kind of a weirdly arbitrary power to base it on.

Trying to bridge concepts from Monsters into a more... grounded? Not-deliberately childlike? ruleset like WT would work, though I've said this before; Wild Talents means you end up very nit-picky about EXACTLY how everything works which you either have to deal with or just accept you're ignoring.

>>54245364

Is it really "supposed" to be that rare? Obviously Gil and his innumerable NPs is significant, but don't most of the servants in FSN have 2 NPs (or at least, multiple forms to their NP)?

>>54245422
>Now the mage families have to cast aside the masquerade
They literally can't. If they ever do, magecraft will cease to exist.

Funny that the strongest mage in the Nasuverse isn't even from Fate.

>>54245510
Pre-vampire Roa obviously.

>>54245510
Solomon is from the bible, yes

>>54245481
I'm pretty sure they already do this in Fate/Extra and earth is a Dystopian Hellscape, one of the reasons everyone wants the Moon Cells power

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>>54245534

He's not referring to Solomon.

>>54245572
I'm pretty sure Zelretch isn't stronger than Solomons 'literally agent of god' bullshit, Anon

>>54245481
Or shit gets weird and everyone becomes a digital hacker, like in EXTRA.

>>54245313
I know nothing about Charles Hornby outside of him allegedly getting first blood for the Brits in WW1 and getting wounded. So that makes me think it would be an instant death first attack + wounding/crippling Hornby. The name sounds like it would be a lightspeed attack, given the lights are doused when you move as fast as they do and Home Before Christmas has a temporal feel to it.

>>54245626
I don't think so either.

That anti-moon laser he shot that one time left him really weakened.

>>54245567
No. The DAAs do some bullshit ritual in the 70s and mana bleeds out of the Earth.

>>54245422
This is Grand Order but stupid.

>>54245626
Zelretch shifted universes just to smash the moon with another moon on a dead planet.

He can traverse the multiverse like its nothing.

>>54245626
Prime-Zelretch? Solomon would get stomped.

Current? It's a toss up.

>>54245697
Solomon was the King of Magic and the jive is AoG magic > magecraft.

Disregarding AoG wank, it's probably something like Zel, Roa in Ciel's body and Barholomoi or whatever her name was. Honorable mentions to Aoko for raw destructive power, Touko/Araya/Kurogiri for minmaxing bullshit, and Rin potentially.

>>54245734
Zelretch has access to True Magic. Solomon was the founder of current Magecraft.

In the duel between the two, I would still give it to Zelretch.
People are also forgetting about Caster-Gilgamesh.

>>54245626
>>54245680
>>54245686

So a friend and I were discussing the comparison of mortal mages to the caliber that Caster Servants represent, and in general what the power scale of Nasuverse mortals are.

The conclusion we came to is that Casters are all over the board on scale of power, but the most powerful casters are the ones that come from those Age of Gods eras, but interestingly the bulk of casters are actually artists, rather than outright legendary magecraft users.

However, two mortal casters basically stand out as the "You must be this tall to ride this ride" mages, and that's Zelretch and Aoko.

The conclusion we came to is that casters like Medea, Solomon, Merlin, and the other A-class legendary mages of history have a shot, but it's mostly because their actual magecraft is so uber that they can deal with the hax bullshit that the two of them can generally otherwise use to just completely outclass mortal maguses and lower tier Servants. Even discounting individual Noble Phantasms, the actual breadth and power of their magecraft abilities are so insane that it really does take something like Arturia's bullshit A-class magic resistance to not just auto-lose to it.

>>54245772
Caster servants are usually the weakest of the bunch, in general.
But the strongest of magic-users are ridiculously powerful.

I really do agree. Mages in the Nasuverse have the most dramatic power scales. Being represented on the extremes, both ends.

>>54245626
Considering what the Ten Rings did for Solomon in F/GO, it's safe to say Zelretch is not on par with Solomon.

>>54245761
>Zelretch has access to True Magic
This is the big kicker.

>>54245851
>it's safe to say Zelretch is not on par with Solomon.
Current Zelretch maybe. There might not even be a fight if Zelretch uses his multiversal shenanigans.

I'd honestly put Solomon, Zelretch & Gilgamesh as the trinity of strongest magicians, personally.

Solomon is the founder of current Magecraft, and can bend it to his will, along with some ridiculous Phantasms.
Gilgamesh in his truest form is "classless" and has great arcane knowledge with magic predating Solomon's own.
Zelretch literally tore down the veil between universes just to punch out a moon with perfected True Magic.

>>54245791

Well one of the odd things, in general, with Nasu's character power tiers is that while Servants are really, really insane, Tsukihime/Melty Blood characters are actually by and large QUITE capable of dealing with a huge number of Servants, even powerful Servants, but AoG-caliber Caster Servants are remarkably well-equipped for dealing with most morals, purely on the basis that their normal magecraft is simply unparalleled by what the fuckers can deal with, and one of the reasons that Servants have a better time with it is because of the nature of some Noble Phantasms, and the statistics attributed to them by the Grail.

Although they're incapable of dealing with entities like Arcueid, and they PROBABLY can't actually perma-kill Roa, someone like Medea can shit all over Nrvnqsr purely because her caliber of magecraft allows her to simultaneously defend against many of his modes of attack, while also being able to chew through the beasts, even the phantasmal ones.

And that isn't insignificant, because Nrvnqsr's capabilities pretty much shit on any Servant without an anti-Army NP.

But on that note it's also worth mentioning that one of THE most problematic characters for servants would actually be Satsuki, who could hilariously and utterly shitstomp any Caster, including Solomon and Merlin, due to the nature of Depletion Garden.

>>54245949
Didn't Nasu say that Primate Murder was equal to about 15 average servants? Primate Murder isn't even the strongest DAA.

>>54245985
Nasu has said a lot of things. A lot of which are contradictory or ret-conned / changed a year or two after

>>54245985
"Average servant" has never really had any meaning to begin with.

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>>54245925
If Zelretch can outmatch Crimson Moon, I have this gut feeling that he'd shit all over every Servant, maybe even have mid to high difficulty with the Grand Servants.

A shame he's currently in a weakened state. He's also potentially -the- troll wizard. He can pop up in any Fate scenario he wants, whenever he wants.

>>54245985

DAAs and True Ancestors are a... we'll call it a "problem" for just about anyone and anything, including Servants.
I believe there's actually something in there along the lines of them even being IMMUNE to Noble Phantasms which are weapons made by humans, or those made by gods intended to be wielded by humans.

And in general, even without just hard-limiters like that, they're incredibly rough to deal with, but... even with a rule like that, there's still Noble Phantasms and servants that are a problem.

But it is worth noting that in some cases, even if you have shit that "works" on them, without shit like Mystic Eyes of Death Perception, even "capable" servants don't stand a chance of actually killing these guys, in some cases.

I mean, it took the combination of Arcueid forcing Walakia to physically manifest AND Shiki having MEoDP to actually kill him, which is a very nice coincidence that they were both there, because very few other options could have possibly existed.

Hilariously, disregarding the fact that he'd still have problems actually killing them, Sasaki Kojirou's NP, being a 'technical skill' excludes it from most immunities and invalid scenarios, and his remarkable skill and speed as a swordsman, paired with the fact that you CAN'T adapt to his attacks makes him actually oddly hard to deal with for a lot of 1v1 scenarios, even against dead apostles.

>>54246072

And then there's biblical Servants like St. Martha who when introduced to Tsukihime absolutely shit on most major threats.

>>54246062
He's a Dead Apostle. He's still ridiculously powerful. Still a match for most Servants.

>>54246061
When I think of "average servant", I picture a Cu Chulainn or a Medusa. Basically anything that isn't over-the-top busted like Gil, Saber with Avalon, or any of the shit from after Fate/Extra

Trying to determine power levels in the Nasuverse is just pointless.

You guys are going to give yourselves massive headaches.

>>54246104
But anon, Cu is top tier.

>>54246120

Well, powerlevel debates are more of a problem when it involves things from different univserses, and more than anything fall apart because of a lack of shared vernacular, as it were.

In the case of Nasushit, it's not quite as difficult because there's a common set of rules, especially where magic is concerned, with ties them together- even the alternate universe shit.

So to that end, playing theorycraft with specific scenarios can be really fun and interesting. Or at least I think so.

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>>54246121
Cu Caster is best Cu

>>54246170
CELTIC RHUNS LADDY

ironically the most success he's ever had but he still wants to be lancer

>>54246195

In Grand Order, one of his death lines is something to the tune of, "If only I'd had a spear..."

>>54246195
>have a NP that can be defeated by Luck
>have E rank Luck

It's a cruel joke really.

>>54245885
The problem with assuming that dimension walking/access to other dimensions is a superpower that would automatically trump someone of greater power, is that it misses out on the point of dimension walking entirely. It exists to give Zelretch a edge of planning and surprise over his opponents, if he even deigns to use it. The power itself, gives him no actual strength aside from replenishing himself like Rin does in Heaven's Feel. If he was able to dimension hop through dozens of dimensions to find just the right one to smash Brunstead with, that doesn't speak of his power so much as it does his cleverness and reach.

As for Solomon, his strength as a mage must be greater due to the whole rule of "Older = better" combined with him being the origin of modern magecraft, something that Zelretch himself practices. Perhaps it's not much greater, and really, people overestimate the strength of most characters in the Fateverse anyways. But my opinion aside, the strength of the Ten Rings and whatever use Solomon has for them surpasses dimension hopping by far. In F/GO Solomon's use of them there annihilates himself fully from the Throne of Heroes, permanently removing himself from all dimensions and erasing his existence utterly. If that sort of power was used as an impromptu offensive power instead of a sacrifice as its meant to be used for, then really, there wouldn't be a single magic user Solomon couldn't beat. It's not Merlin is invincible for instance...

>>54246072
Actually, Dead Apostle Ancestors are greatly exaggerated in strength most of the time. Very few of them would actually be a match for any average Servant focused on combat. They'd be able to win hands down against someone like Demon-Arm Hassan presuming they avoid his Noble Phantasm, but there's no way the majority of the 27 could deal with a servant like Cú Chulainn let alone Hercules. At the top end of the spectrum, when you do look at the really strong ones like Zelretch, Brunestud, or Primate Murder however, whether its raw power, godly ability, or cleverness, they certainly could match a lot of servants, but servants are bullshit entities of unbelievable power themselves, they'd lose against a lot of the high-tier servants. unless the match-up was perfect for them like an inverse relationship between Gilgamesh and Arcuied.

>>54246388
Not him, but Solomon has never demonstrated True Magic. This is a very big advantage Zelretch has on his side.
The biggest advantage of Solomon's is the fact that he can manipulate Magecraft of any kind, him being the absolute founder, but True Magic is explicitly outside of that.

Solomon's Phantasms (the amount of detail for the Seals was candy) are incredibly potent, but the rawness of Zelretch's feat, which diminished him greatly, is what people really look at in terms of feats.
There's also the fact that Caster-Gilgamesh supposedly rivals Solomon, who probably wouldn't be a match for Prime-Zelretch.

Trying to define and determine these three individuals is really wonky. Fruitless at worst, debateable at best.

>>54246436
Nasu did mention that Arcuied at roughly 1/3 of her potential would be a match for Gilgamesh.

I only see very few Servants being a match for the strongest of the Dead Apostles.

>>54246475
True Magic being the dimension walking of Zelretch, which again isn't an omnipotent ability. No True Magic is, but it's certainly an advantage up.

But I agree, it's absolutely pointless. I have my own views on the setting based upon my experiences with Anima: Beyond Fantasy, and I for instance could barely give Zelretch Level 7. Arcuied, I can see at 9, and Gilgamesh sits at 8 or 9 depending on whether or not he's soaked in grail-cum.

>>54246493
The problem with saying someone is at 1/3rds of their power, is that using the rest of that power is an implausible scenario. Especially since magic is on the long road to extinction in the Nasuverse baseline Earth. Arcuied's "1/3rd" might as well be her actual power-level, because unless plot reverses her decline suddenly, she's never going to reach her "full" power. But speaking of that, it's also said Arcuied is a horrible match-up against Gilgamesh because she's just a single woman, whereas Gilgamesh is living artillery. So I can't see her being a match directly, though if you stripped away goldy's NP, it'd be much more in her favour.

>>54246605

Zelretch used Second Magic to 1v1 Crimson Moon. His "dimension walking" was of a different method.

>>54246605
>Zelretch Level 7
Would rank him a 7 in his weakened state and at least a 8(maybe higher) in his prime
>Arcuied Level 9
Would rank her both lower and higher depending on her current standing
>Gilgamesh Level 8/9
He is even more varied. Word of God states he's either a class or classless. Probably higher than full-Arcuied.

>Arcuied's "1/3rd" might as well be her actual power-level
No, she does get more powerful. A lot more powerful. That's kind of how she works.

>>54246688
He used the pure force of Second Magic to one-shot Crimson Moon, and refined it to traverse the multiverse. A feat he is still able to accomplish despite being sucked dry of his prime.

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How would you stat this glorious motherfucker as a servant ?
>Theagenes of Thasos
>Father was a priest of Hercules, rumored that he was actually a child of Herc and his father adopted him.
>Tore a human-size bronze statue and carried it home at the age of 9, because he thought it looked neat.
>The most successful wrestler of ancient Greece with a bit over 1300 victories in his carreer
>Was so renowned that when he went into a pankration (basically ancient MMA) event in Nemea, every other fighter withdrew their participation.
>Joined the Olympics and won in boxing just to spite a guy that dissed his fighting style.
>Posthumously, a rival that never managed to defeat him started to whip his statue his home town built on his honor every night out of spite.
>One night the statue breaks and crushes him.
>Mother of the dead guy accuses that THeagene's ghost did it.
>City council holds a trial for the statue, finds it guilty and throws it to the sea.
>Drought suddenly strikes the city.
>Oracle says that the drought will keep going until they statue is put back on it's place.
>A fisherman finds it and the statue is restored
>Drought stops.
>Theagenes gets a hero cult, supposedly able to cure diseases and treat wounds in athletes.

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>>54233665
Okay, so seeing as Diogenes had a penchant for real-life shitposting, do you think his Fate incarnation would be a smug anime girl?

>>54246745
>No, she does get more powerful. A lot more powerful. That's kind of how she works.

I agree, that's why I did say she could reach a much greater height, but it's important to not bloat or overestimate what a character can do (especially in Anima) without a RPG like level system slapped onto them officially. For instance, I did say Arcuied might be Level 9, but I'd honestly see her more as a 5-10 depending on what number of pieces she's currently in.

Otherwise, good points around. Zelretch has gone up and down, and Gilgamesh is limited or not depending on which "container" he is summoned as. For the sake of comparison, since Heroic Spirits aren't really ever used outside of Grail Wars, it'd be safer to use his classed stats however. So 8/9, which varying aptitudes or special abilities.

>>54246745
I checked the Wiki, it said that Zelretch used the Second Magic to redirect Crimson-Moon's moon-replica, and it's not specific how that defeated him. Presumably he reflected it back Link-Ganon style.

>>54246688
Dimension walking is stated to be a part of the Second Magic according to the wiki. Drawing magic from other dimensions, hopping to the next world over, redirecting a fake moon into some dude's face, It's all under the same umbrella anyways,

>>54246848
Not just a smug anime girl, THE smug anime girl. The platonic ideal of smug animu grill. His(her) noble phantasm would be an irresistible taunt, just because everyone wants to wipe that smug fucking look off his(her) face.

>>54246848
I think Diogenes hits a lot of marks that would make him pretty unlikely for the little girl treatment. He'd probably be a NEET

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Reminder that King Arthur was genderbent out of monetary concerns.

You don't have to genderbend your Servants just because FSN did it.

>>54247014
Tell that to Grand Order. Shit's getting out of hand.

>>54247021
I don't take that trash into account.

>>54247021
You think Grand Order cares about anything other than the money? You're just further proving his point.

>>54247014
Yeah, but if you take the Shiro/Archer stuff and servants being summoned without being shockingly different from the myth Fate gets a lot less fun. They may have done it largely because nobody wanted a female protagonist, but they still made the right decision

>>54246804
Make him a musclegirl and I'm in.

>>54245479
Most of the Servants in F/SN are top-tier. FSN is literally Gilgamesh vs Hercules vs Irish Hercules vs King Arthur.

>>54247014
>>54247092

If I'm being completely honest, I actually like the concept of taking a figure like Arthur, probably specifically Arthur, and creating a scenario in which he was a she.

Because fundamentally, if it serves an interesting story, and given the nature of Arthurian myth, and the presence of that motherfucker Merlin, it takes a set of tales the bulk of which were already fictitious and uses it as a mechanism to challenge conceptions and throw a bit of spice into the mix with what would otherwise be a somewhat stale, overused part of historical fiction.

In Fate, the idea of a young woman in ancient Britain being the one to pull Caliburn from the stone, and how someone like Merlin might step in to try and make sure things go in a direction that the population is capable of dealing with (and possibly to cover his own ass) isn't all that unreasonable given Merlin's reputation, and the mystical aspects already present in the stories.

It's certainly more interesting than yet another slightly darker and slightly grittier version of the same goddamn Arthur stories the rest of western media keeps shoving out.

But then on the other hand when you make Nero Caesar a woman, and Musashi a woman, and Oda Nobunaga a woman... well, I think it's safe to say that they just don't even care.

But Arthur being a woman is a narrative that I can deal with.

>>54247193
F/GO doesn't really explore characters, so a lot of them are basically just "Historical figure X was really just modern highschool romcom anime archetype Y" or some other easy to digest joke, which is fine for me given the format only really allows that much depth. The Nero one I don't really want to get into mostly because I just haven't gone through the trouble of playing the game, so I don't really know anything about it

>trying to create a set of rules for a setting as internally inconsistent as fucking Fate
Why
The fact that someone has an ability literally called 'Rule Breaker' that does whatever the plot feels like should be enough of an indicator

>>54246804
Probably a mid-tier Servant. Some sort of wrestling move Noble Phantasm, and either Battle Continuation EX or a Noble Phantasm that lets him come back from the dead to kill the guy who killed him.

>>54247236
Why would you use Rule Breaker of all things as an example of the setting being internally inconsistent? Do you even know what it does?

>>54247174

Gil, Herc, Medea, Arthur are pretty undisputed in being top-tier.

Emiya, in spite of being a special snowflake counter-guardian, and the silliness that is UBW, his general performance isn't actually all that special compared to other Archers that we know of.

Cu is is strong, Gae Bolg is pretty ridiculous, but he really does suffer a similar problem to Emiya, where he has some significant weaknesses.
Medusa has some incredibly bullshit abilities... but they don't work on Servants. As counter-master she's one of the best, and really she gets gimped badly by the story routes of F/SN, but it's hard to tell if she's "actually" supposed to be that much more powerful.

She and Cu seem to be a benchmark for "strong" servants that don't quite break into that holy-fuck-what-are-you territory.

I don't think anyone would claim Kojirou is actually even close to any of the rest in power. Exceptional duelist, but has nothing else going for him. He's probably on the weaker side among potential Servants.

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>>54247265
Cu is fucking retarded strong. His NP doesn't really have any counters, his stats are top notch and his skills are really good too. The only people who could even remotely compete with him at full power in Fuyuki would be Herk and full powered Saber.

>>54247262
I dont suppose reading is your strong point huh

>>54247252
Given that he caused a drought, I'd say placing a curse on the servant that killed him that prevents them from recovering mana would be more fitting.
His statue killing that one guy would be better reflected by having him reflect attacks beneath a certain threshold than any sort of vengeance, since the guy never beat him.

>>54247288
Unless throwing gay bulge would have taken a bunch of "lives" he was kind of fucked because of that though. He basically had to wait for Saber, Archer, or Caster to deal with berserker. Saber is the one that archer's a fundamentally weak against for reasons. Archer has absolutely no reason to help Lancer for similar reason to the saber/lancer relationship. Caster is the class that gets infamously OP if you leave it alone too long.
Between Kotomine fucking him over from the get go and Herc he was kind of screwed.

>>54247342
>Saber is the one that archer's a fundamentally weak against for reasons
Meant to say lancers are the one weak to sabers

>>54247342
You know you can just kill the master, right?

>>54247265
>Exceptional duelist, but has nothing else going for him. He's probably on the weaker side among potential Servants.
Savior of France, anon. Dragons are just bigger swallows.

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Reminder: Hassan Assassins > non-Hassan Assassins

>>54247577
>Literal whos over actual professional killers renowned throughout history

>>54244118
There's a thread on that exact premise on sufficientvelocity

>>54247224
Nero is supposedly (distantly) related to Arturia, which is why they have sameface.

It's a pretty weak excuse, desu.

>>54233823
There the master of astolfo in apocrypha, she does the traditional 'mess around with animal organs for magecraft' type stuff, also she likes molesting and murdering people.

>>54246195
Norse runes actually
Also.

>>54247592
>Literally the founder of the group that gave us the word assassin
>Random whackjobs who killed people
Git gud

Anons, how would you make a Noble Phantasm based off the fact that Pandora didn't let Hope escape of the jar?

>>54247904
That's literally the plot of Prillya right now, anon.

>>54247904
Well I would assume Pandora would be summoned as a Caster. Maybe a Ruler?

>>54240496
the kind steeped in the erroneous belief that realism = good writing

you know, the same kind that makes martials shit in comparison to wizards

>>54245164
Mata Hari is absolutely amazing in a real grail war setting

With a competent and unscrupulous magus behind her, she could win thanks to her incredible ability to infiltrate and control

>>54247592
you're a shit assassin if people know who you are

>>54248414
You're a shit assassin if you can't kill your targets. Doesn't matter how famous you are as long as you can get the job done. Besides, some of those other assassins are plenty unknown themselves, like Jack.

>>54248452
F/SN and F/Z had to reel back their Assassins for plot reasons, otherwise there'd be no competition because they're really good at killing their targets.

>>54248666
Not sure what your point is, I wasn't trying to say anything bad about the real Assassins, I was just saying that being well known in no way means that you're a shit assassin.

>>54248666
IIRC in the mini HGW in the apocrypha timeline people used assasins well for once and dominated till all the hassans were catalogued.

>>54238278
>>54238339
Saberface and gender swap kill it for me. Also loli/shota characters like Jack. Fucking what is that. I like the potential for exaggeration or unique spins on myth and legend, but some of it is just dumb.

Like CuChulain dressing in blue magic(?) spandex because he was said to go into battle naked and blue? Silly and fun to make fun of. Arthur was actually a girl who took the mantle of "king"? Made for a novel twist and did nothing to otherwise diminish the character. Heracles' Godhand NP? Makes for a good villain and only causes problems when trying to make tabletop fair. And I'd agree with >>54238388 if he didn't end up being a really fun character overall.


But hey! Jack the Ripper was a little girl, and every notable poet/author was a Servant-tier mage, and Joan of Arc is in thighhighs? Sad that the idea kinda got turned from "contemporary versions of heroes fighting" to "let's make another super powered waifu for Takeuchi to half as a design for."

>>54247342
Not being able to kill Heracles doesn't mean he isn't top tier in terms of stats, combat skills, and NP usefulness. It just means Godhand is a retardedly specific plot device.

>>54247577
But history has a few great candidates for Assassin that could add to a narrative, or provide a cool design that isn't waifu or skull man.

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>>54249514
What is wrong with waifus and skull men?

>>54249010
IIRC shakespeare and hans were not mages in life, they are just empowered by the fame.

>>54247193
>Musashi a woman, and Oda Nobunaga a woman
Aren't they both explicitly from an alternate dimension where everyone is genderflipped for no reason?

Musashi has a line bitching about how in her world, Ushi was a bishonen samurai instead of an underdressed loli.

>>54250334
IIRC ushi is a titty monster as a adult, like I recall something like she's on par with raikou.

>>54247030
>>54247033
Actually, I take back what I said. Having looked through most of the FGO characters, I only found 6 or so genderbends that were introduced in that game. The rest were either introduced earlier or have some sort of reason for it.

Oh who am I kidding, 6 is still way too many. Fucking Nasu stop shitting up history reeeeeeeee

>>54250334

Well, FGO has a great excuse that time/space is fuckled and Chaldea is literally collecting multiple grails and such and probably using such things for the mana cost so the PC can summon a million and 1 servants. You must clearly be drawing through different realities where you can summon both Artoria and Arthur - and the theoretical Lancer Artoria, as well as Cu, Prototype Cu and Caster Cu - etc.

Obviously they want to make money and waifus are part of the hook, but at the same time I don't think necessarily some of these things are a "canon" for a singular universe. Like I'm pretty sure outside of the singularity, Ishtar doesn't bodyjack Rin Tohsaka normally - but because she does do that and you meet her once you can recall that version of "ishtar" as a heroic spirit.

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>>54247265
>Medusa has some incredibly bullshit abilities... but they don't work on Servants. As counter-master she's one of the best, and really she gets gimped badly by the story routes of F/SN, but it's hard to tell if she's "actually" supposed to be that much more powerful.

Technically, Medusa is heavily gimped because the Rider class version isn't the Medusa of legend at all, but the woman who was raped by Poseidon and later became Medusa.

The real Medusa, which depending on your interpretation, is either the Gorgon version of her or the bullshit tentacle monster from Gorgon's NP that Perseus fought against.

>>54249983
>>54249010

Honestly this is a problem with works other than FGO, like Apocrypha and Extra (where Shakes and Hans are from). They and Mozart are really only the examples of artists as casters - and Mozart is rumored to have had magic connections. There are a couple inventors, and Da Vinci is the renaissance man (and now renaissance woman embodying the Mona Lisa). Nursery Rhyme is kind of another weird gestalt servant.

Everybody else is actual mystics, mages or people associated with magical knowledge (Like Nitocris who wouldn't rate as a servant except that she was hijacked by the Cthulhu Mythos).

>>54250628
I wouldn't mind more artists as servants but what would be the level of groundbreaking or fame for a artist to be a servant?
Could M C escher be one? He was born in 1898 just before the cut off so autists cant get mad.
Van gogh would be interesting.

>>54246104
Cu is basically Irish Herc. If he had Bazett as master he'd probably have geeked multiple Servants.

>>54246848
>smug anime girl
>masturbates in public
Remove magical realm.

>>54250723
>multiple
You mean literally all of them sans Herk.

>>54250477
Did you really expect that the woman who would grow up to be the Genghis Khan would end up as a washboard?

>>54250537
The F/GO summoning system rather explicitly breaks every single rule that grail systems are supposed to follow. Partially due to how the fucked the world is and partially due to how the Servants are only manifested into the Singularities, which simultaneously do and don't exist as real locations.

Divine spirits are being summoned everywhere, Scat can be summoned despite never actually dying or being recorded into the Throne, Servants are stealing each other' Saint Graphs, multiple versions of the same servant can exist at the same time without Gaia lolnoping them out of existence. F/GO is a massive clusterfuck where there are no rules and the points don't matter, which Nasu and the other writers love because it lets them do things with the story and characterization that couldn't happen in any other Fate story (except Strange Fake, where you also have stupid shit everywhere, but the author of that is a lazy shit who works at a pace that can generously be described as glacial.)

>>54240088
Speak for yourself, some of learned nip for our weeaboo fightan comics.

>>54245761
One of Solomon's abilities is that he cab turn off all magecraft with his rings. That and Solomon has true magic, he just also founded magecraft.

>>54250334
Nobu is a joke character but yes, Musashi is explicitly from a Rule 63 universe.

Most of the current original genderflips in GO have some reasoning behind them: Okita is a Saberface joke, Quetz has the tie in with Venus, Artemis hijacked Orion's Saint Graph, Musashi is from R63 Universe, Mama is Ushi Gozen, who was female, Shuten is a loli due to androgyny, Ibaraki is Shuten's wife in some stories, Da Vinci is a weird motherfucker who wanted to be Mona Lisa, Sanzou is portrayed as/by a woman in certain versions of Journey to the West (like DragonBall) and Taiga is a Demi-Servant hijack.

>>54246062
Zelretch physically falls short of most servants who can outmatch him in speed and strength. An average NP could probably kill him, so he'd have to bank it all on his own magecraft/True Magic, which many servants have a resistance to.

>>54251038
But he needs all the rings IIRC? both goetia and solomon did not have them.

>>54249587
Absofuckinglutely nothing, but it just provides an alternative. Skull men are cool. Waifu are cool. Also cool is the myriad of possibilities that don't involve those two things.

>>54250666
I think I'm just a bit of an autist about the fame ruling. I thought fame and location would boost a Servant, but never above their actual abilities.

Also just buttmad that instead of cool casters from myth and legend we get poems, poets, and authors.

>>54250786
Basically this in any reality where his Np didn't derail the plot.

>>54248928
the mini HGWs in the apocrypha timeline are a fucking treasure trove

like how the greek mini HGWs never really happened because everybody kept killing each other because they were trying to get Heracles catalysts.

Then when they banned Herc for being OP, everyone did the same thing for Achilles instead

>>54247932
Fuck, I didn't know

>>54251074
Da Vinci is a great motherfucker

fuck you

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>>54246848
Alright, it's time to stat up Diogenes.

Diogenes
Class: Caster
Alignment: True Neutral

Strength: D
Defense: C-
Agility: D+
Magic: A+
Luck: B

Class Skills
Territory Creation: A++
Independent Action: A+
Magic Resistance: B
Item Construction: C-

Personal Skills
Mental Pollution: A - The enigmatic mind of Caster is truly a mystery. The twisted mentality he possesses allows him to easily shrug off hostile mental influence.
Vicious Mockery: A++ - Caster's foolishness is indistinguishable from wisdom, and vice versa, but one thing can be said with certainty - Caster wields his double-edged wit like a weapon, against friends and foes alike.


Noble Phantasms:
The Dog of Sinope: EX - Caster is capable of creating a Reality Marble that embodies his essence of an "honest man". While Reality Marble is manifested, anyone caught inside it is impervious to physical or magical damage. In order to defeat the opponent, one must enter a contest of "insult fighting", where the opponents duel, trading insults and retorts until either of them is unable to continue. Reality Marble lasts either until Caster runs out of mana, or either Caster or his opponents are defeated.

>>54244960
Not that muchof a debuff
All stats shoot up for Fight to a plus but after fight its over permanent down from bees to cs and then from c to d
Berserker next?
>>54245008
Kinda trying to avoid the OP bullshit of other servant NPs

>>54250666
Rodin would be way better than any of those idiots

and also coincidentally, you got triple 6's and he made the gates of hell so

>>54251183
And how young magi literally made a guide on the net for HGW.
Also how magi used hassans correctly for once, they were a plague on the mini HGWs till the magi catalogued every hassans abilities and it fell out of favor.
So they probably summoned 17 hassan since I doubt 'GIVE ME YOUR HEAD' got involved.

>>54251279
unless he did and he was the last one they summoned

never bothered to catalog him because they were too busy dying

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>>54251279
What fucking counter is there to Hassans?

>>54251236
then what's the fuckin point

if you don't have some bullshit to whip out then you've got no chance of winning

>>54251310
______love______

>>54250822
>The F/GO summoning system rather explicitly breaks every single rule that grail systems are supposed to follow.

To be fair all the later the Grail War systems featured are:
Apocrypha - Literally the Fuyuki Grail jacked from Fuyuki, running on previously unused rules.
Strange Fake - An attempt to copy the Fuyuki Grail.
Extraverse - The Moon Cell just copied the idea from the Fuyuki Grail Wars, but it doesn't really have to obey any rules nor does it have the same restrictions.
Grand Order - Only the summoning system really, based on Fuyuki's and using a part of the Round Table. Scale and purpose of things are entirely different.

>>54251310
>What fucking counter is there to Hassans?
Traps. Hassans are usually fragile as fuck, so all you need to do is to reenact the Tomb of Horrors and bait them into coming.

>>54251310
Not being a faggot who lets other Masters know who you are.

They can't assassinate you if they don't know who to assassinate.

>>54251310

Ionioi Hetairoi was a pretty hard counter.

>>54251339
That's not even the worst part

even F/SN breaks the grail system, since you've got things like Fake Assassin and Gilgamesh running around

>>54251354
What fucking trap can stop a servant, especially an Assassin with high presence concealment?

>>54251309
It's just funny that king hassan is in all probability still alive in the modern era just in his tomb in israel.
According to shitposting on /vg/ and BL king hassan also killed a few successor hassans as well.

>>54251407
Astolfo

>>54251407
>What fucking trap can stop a servant, especially an Assassin with high presence concealment?
The one that doesn't rely on detecting the enemy?
Also, guardians, gates and other roadblocks.
Basically, all the shit that stealth games throw at you counters Hassans.

And, obviously, attacking first also counters Hassans.

>>54251310
Aside from Papa Bones, they usually suck when stripped of Presence Concealment

>>54251419
He kills successor Hassans if they don't kill themselves or if they don't die in battle, basically

He's the first and last hassan

>>54251431
So the counter for Hassans is for Masters to just literally never leave their trap-filled workshop?

>>54251419
We know that Scathatch is still alive and about somewhere in Ireland, so I wouldn't put it past King Hassan to be just camped out in a cave somewhere just being a cranky old man who collects severed heads.

>>54251455
>So the counter for Hassans is for Masters to just literally never leave their trap-filled workshop?
No, the counter for Hassans is to make them assume you are inside the trap-filled workshop. :^)
You can do this by hiring an actor who would play the role of a Master.

>>54251460
IIRC she is technically in the other side of the world, the place were all the high magic shit got shoved into after the AOG.
>>54251445
Doesn't he kill them if they break some rules.

>>54251325
Having fun? Making a less weeb style set up? That's actually somewhat balanced?

>>54251494
Is this what that one guy meant when he talked about how westerners in charge of FSN would make it shit?

>>54251526
It really depends on the westerner in charge and how much sway exec have.
If we got someone who was off the wall 'crazy' who knows what we could get.

>>54251400
That has more to do with the fact that Hundred Face absolutely sucks at anything other than spying. Her physical stats aren't impressive to begin with, and they go down the more she splits herself.

Ionioi Hetairoi isn't even that impressive as a NP either.

>>54251545
Well do we know the exact strength of the summoned army? they are described as servants so could they have at least E- strength?

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>>54251541
>If we got someone who was off the wall 'crazy' who knows what we could get.
American McGee, Suda51 and Platinum Games are in charge of the new canon Fate game.
How does it turn out?

>>54251592
It's shit because none of them have made anything good for several years and have bungled everything given to them.

>>54251483
part of those rules is doing your job properly and being a devout muslim

which, despite what /pol/ might tell you, doesn't include assassination

so what he does is he's basically sneaky santa claus and when you've got too many murders he kills you for christmas

>>54251526
this is exactly what they meant

>>54251609
Yeah It is funny that It's rather easy to forget King hassan is muslim.
He even seems to have communication with god.
I do wish we know why he founded the hassans,
Like what is the 'job'
The deathrate must have been rather quick for each hassan generation as they were gone by what the 16th century IRL.

>>54251574
I don't think stats are ever given, but presumedly yeah they all have at least E stats, and some are said to be better fighters than Iskander but the Hetairoi doesn't materialize their NPs.

>>54251574
I think they range from E to A when it comes to stats, but they don't have NPs, which largely makes them useless on a Servant scale.

>>54251678
They don't have any abilities or skills either, aside from E-rank Independent Action.

>>54251744
They don't have a class IIRC?

>>54251760
Nope, no class either. They're basically Servants in name only.

>>54251178
Skuld would be a neat caster; she has foundation in history as a Lady Macbeth type woman who convinced her husband to rebel against Edgil, high king of Denmark, and in myth as a half-elf sorceress who conned her husband into rebellion and led an army of elves, norns (banshees) criminals and mercenaries against the 12 heroic berserkers and Bjarki Bittersen as an extended vengeance for her mother's rape by Bjarki's grand-uncle. She used an enchanted cauldron (a la Mabinogion) to resurrect her army when the heroes had nearly defeated her, after which her army killed everyone.
When the high king/rest of the nordics came to quell her rebellion/get revenge for Bjarki she was killed horribly, but she fulfilled her mother's prophecy.

>>54251862
My bad, texting and driving while trying to remember a saga I read a year ago, it was Hrolf Kraki Saga. Other names are also suspect.

Pied piper of hamelin as a servant.
I mean historians suspect the fairy tale had some little bits of truth IIRC, like there was things like a old glass window made in a 100th anniversery of 'our children disappearing' or something like that, it isn't around for modern verification but they found records of it being referred too.

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For an RPG... I was working on some rudimentary rules for a Grail War campaign a while back. I was still hung up on a system to balance magic and implement the complexity of the Nasuverse magic, so I didn't even get to start the summoning rules. The idea was that you are playing the master and invest points into the summoning ritual which determines the categor (i.e. mythological cycle) and maximum power level of your servant. The more you invest the more you can narrow it down by procuring specific artifacts such as Dr Dee's Obsidian Mirror or Avalon (as a more extreme example)

>>54252081
I was also working with someone on a system until I hit magic. Similar idea as yours though, investing points into character creation and Servant relics. Was less focused on magic as I was making the Servant stats make sense. A=50 times the human average is at once absurd sounding and too abstract to make any sense, so I settled on a d10 system where you rolled under your value for score, 1-11 was "human", 12-14 E ranked, 15-17 D, 18-20 C, etc.

Players could make masters and magi with 9s and 10s for stats, but those were Kotomine levels of stupid and would leave you with 2s and 3s for your other stats.

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>>54251609
>so what he does is he's basically sneaky santa claus and when you've got too many murders he kills you for christmas

sugoi

>>54250822
Don't talk shit about Narita, he's the best writer Fate has right now. Maybe if you read SF you'd know the reason why the rules are being fucked.

>>54252855
He gave us a better jack the ripper at least.

>>54252987
He's not even the real Jack, He's just the legend of the ripper.

He's about as real as the sackhead Jack from Assassin's Creed.

>>54253033
I know, It's still better than loli jack

>>54253091
I think it's funny that everyone who objects to loli Jack prefers Manly Jack for the exact same reason that he exists in the first place: because people assumed that Jack the Ripper had to be a man with medical training, even though the real Jack was a magical gestalt made out of the souls of dead children.

>>54253203
Guess that a manly serial killer is easier for certain people to accept than an abortion gestalt with a mommy complex that dresses like a stripper.

>>54253203
>even though the real Jack was a magical gestalt made out of the souls of dead children.
Uh, what?

>>54253252
I think suspension of disbelief breaks after a point. What we can infer about Jack the Ripper historically and the popular culture around it influences opinions as well. King Arthur (the magic knight, Gilgamesh, and Heracles didn't exist so bending what's already a made up story doesn't bother people as much loli Jack. Also her design is super pedo, and some people can't get behind that.

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>>54238448
>>54234496
/r/politics please go

>>54254082
Don't have to be a ledditor to think Pizzagate was fucking stupid.

>>54245479
Sort of, but not really. In FSN Rider has a few, Saber has two forms and gets two more in Fate, and Berserker sort of has two (his sword is an NP but he can't use it), but that's it. Emiya and Gilgamesh both have one NP that let's them summon more. Effectively, only Rider and Saber have multiple defining powers.

>>54251107
>Zelretch physically falls short of most servants who can outmatch him in speed and strength
Zelretch is a Dead Apostle, so no.

>An average NP could probably kill him, so he'd have to bank it all on his own magecraft/True Magic, which many servants have a resistance to.
True Magic is too hax, anon. Resistance also isn't everything at the higher end of things. Just look at Solomon.

>>54254023
>Because the true identity of Jack the Ripper has never been made clear, its shape changes in accordance with which Class it is summoned into. In this case, having manifested as an Assassin, it is an aggregation of children who were not allowed to be born.
>Because this Assassin Jack was killed before even being born, her wish for the Holy Grail is a regression to the womb - to return to her mother's womb.

>>54254023
>Uh, what?
In the Nasuverse, there was no human behind the alias Jack the Ripper. Instead, the souls of back-alley aborted fetuses formed into wraiths, and these wraiths merged together to form a weird gestalt that lived off of the hatred of the dead children at their whore mothers. After some time, the gestalt started murdering prostitutes as a form of revenge for the children they aborted. At some point, the Mage Association realized that there was something magical going on and "Jack the Ripper" was hunted down and destroyed.

Some people just can't get over the fact that the gestalt wraith in question looks like a white haired 11 year old and sperg out whenever the name is mentioned.

>>54254441
Normal Dead Apostles aren't much different from Humans overall actually, versus a Servant, they are extremely outmatched even by the weakest of them. The more unnatural and "divine"-like Dead Apostle Ancestors would overall be a better match-up for a servant, but as we've said before, most Dead Apostle Ancestors still would be outmatched greatly.

>>54254441
True Magic is enough to shit in the face of resistance. The old man also has access to an infinite store of magic.

>>54254479
>>54254527
I think we can all agree (or just me) that Jackie is a terrible character. I might be a little bit biased.

>>54254964
Funny that the masses seem to disagree with your sentiment. The 'DAA x Servants' is not an uncommon debate. Ancestors are not something to underestimate.

>>54254441
>>54254964
>>54255048

Normal dead apostles would be a match for the weakest of servants.
Ancestors are another thing entirely. Some of them can easily match the strongest of servants.

>>54255093

And some dead apostles have specific abilities that make them fuck up servants even harder.
See previous comments made about Satsuki.

>dead apostles vs servants

The best answer to this is "Yes and No". It pretty much boils down to "yes they can kill most of them" and "but they cant kill these", namely Brunestud, Primate Murder, Zelretch, Crimson Moon, ORT etc

So how have people's attempts at running a Fate or Nasuverse game gone?

I'm currently running a campaign for 4 players based on F/GO; they work as Masters but instead of having individual servants they equip them like in prisma illya.
I've genderbent more Servants than I hoped because its easier to find art for female characters than it is male characters.

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>>54233665
Best Saber & Best Rider is here

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>>54255395

Terribly untrue.

Though I guess technically they are related.

>>54255557
>>54255395

Y'know, for being an evil sorceress scheming to take over Camelot, Morgan's kind of shite on her track record of evil agents. Gawain is steadfastly loyal to Artoria, Agravain despite looking shifty as fuck is also absolutely loyal even if everybody shit on him, Gareth (who was confirmed by Nasu to be a girl in Fate, though not that weird since Mallory described him as pretty and delicate) was a steadfast and noble knight loved by all and was loyal enough to fight Lancelot (suicide) and prior to the rebellion Mordred was respected well enough to be left in charge while Arthur left to fight Lancelot and her only wish is to be given the opportunity to pull Caliburn and be acknowledged as a true king.

Though historically Gaheris is kind of a dick and hasn't been covered at all, so who knows.

>>54255093
The DAAs are confirmed not to exist in the same universe as SF takes place, or most of Fate in general. The same beings exist, but not as DAAs.

>>54255162
Zelretch in his current state probably wouldn't be able to fight a servant in any meaningful way. Maybe in his prime, but certainly not now.

>>54256545
well we don't really have a showing for zel do we in this period of his life, he mostly just sits around and traumatizes students.

>>54256371
Fate exists alongside Tsukihime in the multiverse, which Zelretch can traverse on a whim. Zelretch has mentored Rin.

>>54256545
Zelretch would still be more than a match for most Servants. He wouldn't even need to fight them.

>>54256639
Zelretch is kind of a butt.

>>54256754

Considering current-Zelretch still has access to Second Magic, the odds are greatly in his favor against any given Servant, bar the Grands.

Prime-Zelretch would decimate even Solomon.

>>54256754
There's really no reason to believe that. It's been stated that servants, even weaker ones, can overpower nearly any mage easily thanks to having a servant container. A servant container is meant to buff weaker servants to standards such as Shakespeare and weaken stronger ones like Hercules.

Zelretch in his current, weakened state has no way to deal with a stronger servant who is simply much faster and stronger than he can handle. You say he wouldn't need to fight, but he wouldn't really have a choice. True Magic can only get you so far, it has its limits. He may be able to deal with weaker servants and fight average ones defensively, but he has no way to fight back against anything in the strong to top tier bracket. Fate has simply powercrept him and most of Tsukihime. Arc, an incredibly powerful DAA even at 30% power, has a bad matchup against Gilgamesh, who is no longer the undisputed best servant.

>>54256884
Solomon lived in a time where True Magic was still a thing. It was snuffed out with his death, which means he could more than likely use it. Just because he invented Magecraft does not mean he could only use that. Zelretch, Second Magic included, can only do so much because his body has a maximum output. That's why his battle with the Crimson Moon permanently fucked him up. He used more power than he normally would've. His max capacity is far lower than it used to be, which kinda fucks him against stronger servants. He's too weak now. Still tougher than any regular mage alive, but not servant level. He honestly gets wanked far too much.

>>54256981
I'm not sure if this a troll post or not.

>>54256981
>He honestly gets wanked far too much.

I think the irony here is that it's the opposite. Though I don't think you've actually delved into Tsukihime.

This is also a debate on feats, Solomon has had no demonstration of True Magic whatsoever.

>>54256994
100% serious. The Nasuverse is a different animal than it once was and Zelretch really isn't as good as people think anymore. He's been overestimated for a long time. If you have an objection, feel free to argue it. I'm not opposed to discussion.

>>54256981
>It's been stated that servants, even weaker ones, can overpower nearly any mage easily thanks to having a servant container
Depends

>Gilgamesh, who is no longer the undisputed best servant.
Word of God disagrees. Gilgamesh in his truest form is "classless"

>True Magic can only get you so far, it has its limits
Counter productive to how True Magic functions

>Arc, an incredibly powerful DAA even at 30% power, has a bad matchup against Gilgamesh, who is no longer the undisputed best servant.
30% Arcueid has been described as Gilgamesh's equal by, again, Word of God

>Solomon lived in a time where True Magic was still a thing
And yet he was not one of its practitioners.

>He's too weak now. Still tougher than any regular mage alive, but not servant level. He honestly gets wanked far too much.
You honestly think characters from Tsukihime get wanked more so than Fate? You must be new.

>>54257022
I've read it already, and while Zelretch is impressive, he's not as big as people think. He was massively powerful for a human, but he permanently lowered his potential. His output is very limited and True Magic used to be a very common thing. Servants, even just average ones, are just far more physically impressive than nearly any human just by virtue of having a servant container. Medea's magecraft is nearly on the level of True Magic, and this is stated back in Stay Night. Solomon lived in the age of True Magic and there's no reason he couldn't use magic before he developed magecraft.

>>54257027
>He's been overestimated for a long time

he really hasn't. this is why they're assuming you're a troll, or perhaps not. This is the first time in a while I've seen him mentioned.

>>54257102
>Gilgamesh in his truest form is "classless"

Indeed. He had to hide on the other side because of this.
It's also a bit silly to assume that he wouldn't/couldn't be summoned as any of the Grand Servants.

I'm predicting a massive text wall from the resident fate faggot

How many saber clones do we need before they start to resonate?

>>54257268
There's already an assassin anti-saberface saberface.

>>54257282
>The Hundred Face Hassan with different Saberfaces as different aspects of Hassan
Fund it.

>>54257102
>Word of God disagrees. Gilgamesh in his truest form is "classless"
And yet there are other servants that can fight him pretty evenly or are at least more useful than him simply due to having comparable power but without the bad attitude.

>Counter productive to how True Magic function
I say it can only get you so far because people are limited in how much they can do with it. This is evident by Zelretch using more than his body can handle when he repelled Crimson Moon's attack, permanently weakening himself. His current for is weaker than his prime because of this. He can't do literally anything with it because his body can't fully utilize it.

>30% Arcueid has been described as Gilgamesh's equal by, again, Word of God
Word of God also states that Gilgamesh is bad matchup for her because Gil's Gate of Babylon provides him enough fire power to make him worth more than just one servant. I don't remember the exact phrasing, but it was something like Arc equals however many servants, but Gilgamesh plus his armory is worth one more than Arc is at 30%.

>You honestly think characters from Tsukihime get wanked more so than Fate? You must be new.
No, I believe that he's overwanked by fans because they see the description for the Second Magic and immediately think Zelretch is the top dog, when in actuality he's very limited in output and a lot of DAAs lose to servants unless they win out in compatibility, like how Nero would mop the floor with servants who can't deal with all of his beasts, but he has a decent chance of losing to a servant with an Anti-Army NP or better. Or like how Cu is called a bad matchup for Arc because Gae Bolg isn't something she has a handy counter to.
If anything, people who think Zelretch is OP just based on the description of the Second Magic are the newfags because they don't understand that the only practitioner of it is essentially "crippled" in its usage.

>>54257148
It's not very often, but when Zelretch comes up people shit theirs pants for some reason. Granted I'm not only talking about /tg/.

>>54257319
>massive test wall from the resident fate faggot

>>54257319
I think the issue here is that a couple of the Dead Apostle Ancestors are just much "meatier" than some of the strongest of Servants.

Zelretch is one of them, and for some reason you hate that. Which is somewhat giggle worthy.

>>54257319
Nobody is saying Zelretch is the "top dog" due to his Second Magic.

They're saying he has demonstrated capabilities and functions that 'at least' rivals that of damn powerful individuals, namely Solomon and Gilgamesh (perhaps not classless Gilgamesh)

>>54257370
I keep saying this, but...

Prime-Zelretch would obliterate any Servant, probably Grand Servants.
Current-Zelretch would obliterate most, but not the toughest Servants.

As above mentioned, there is irony at play here.
Servants are overwanked to the max compared to the DAA. It's time the fans had some humility.

>>54257339
All of it correct. And besides, there's more than one fatefag. tfw like Mahoyo the most out of just about any TM work but get called a fatefag anyway

>>54257447
>All of it correct
Hmmm, this is where you evolve into the "elitist delusional fatefag"

Determing power levels in the Nasuverse is absolutely fruitless in the long run.

>>54257447
I've always been curious as to how shiki would react to some of the shit touko does in mahou.

>>54257447
>"i am right, you are wrong"

Oh please.

>>54257370
>>54257387
The issue is that the feats people cite are Zelretch in his prime, who wasn't even physically impressive. His Second Magic is weaker than it used to be and it's never coming back. People keep citing Prime Zelretch, who only has one impressive feat, but current Zelretch can't do anything like that. Not even close. Keep in mind that Fate Extella has a few of the servants BTFO'ing a cosmic entity as well.

>>54257488
>>54257472
Like I said, I'm open to discussion, but every time I have this discussion, people seem to never acknowledge that Zel is actually very limited in his use of the Second Magic, and he could only do what he did to Crimson Moon once. Nothing I stated was incorrect. The thing is, the Nasuverse doesn't run on powerlevels anyway, it's all about compatibility, luck, and concepts. People who argue about it like it's DBZ are wrong.

>>54257493
>Zelretch in his prime, who wasn't even physically impressive
He was explicitly stated as being physically impressive. It's also good to note that physical prowess, while entirely relevant in Fate, doesn't mean everything.

>His Second Magic is weaker than it used to be and it's never coming back
Minor nitpick. His raw reserves of Second Magic won't ever be coming back. His refinement of it is still as capable as it ever was.

>but current Zelretch can't do anything like that. Not even close
Other than dimensional shenanigans, I agree. We're discussing Prime-Zelretch here.

>>54257542
>people seem to never acknowledge that Zel is actually very limited in his use of the Second Magic

But they -do- acknowledge it.

>>54257569
I'm referring to prior discussions I've had, mostly non-/tg/. But then again, /tg/ is best board. In general, you've all been more sensible than other boards have been.

Wasn't Crimson Moon stated as being above any given Servant?

good goin'
ORT is worse yet

>>54257542
>it's all about compatibility, luck, and concepts.

Truer words.

>>54257548
I'd say Prime Zelretch, while one of the more physically impressive humans/mages, would still lose to some of the stronger servants in that regard. Referring to people like Hercules, Cu, Arthur, etc of course. Being in his Prime, he could likely beat just about any servant without a strong enough defense because what he did to Crimson Moon would be like using a really powerful Noble Phantasm (like Excalibur level), but he would also probably lose if he takes an NP as well. Even with the Second Magic, he was still human, and a human can only take so much. So it's kind of like a "who pulls out the big guns and hits first" type deal.

>>54257611
>Wasn't Crimson Moon stated as being above any given Servant?

Yes, and Schweinorg beat it nonetheless.

>>54257671
Prime Zelretch deflected an entire moon. Shifted universes and dropped it.

That's not something most Servants are going to match.
Though he did lose much of his power from it.

>>54257611
Crimson Moon is stronger than any given servant (Noble Phantasms excluded), but some of them would likely fuck him over. Stuff like Excalibur fully unsealed (which is meant to be Earth's Final Phantasm), fully powered Ea, or Vasavi Shakti (which defeats a powerful alien entity in Extella by just being a beam of massive raw power).

>>54257709
No Noble Phantasm is going to match the motherfuckin' moon.

Nothing except Ea.

>>54257690
They wouldn't necessarily need to match it, and some could defend against it or avoid it, like Arturia with Avalon. If Zelretch attempted to do the same to her and she has access to Avalon, his one shot would be gone. If he can hit with it and it isn't mitigated in some way or avoided, than the amount of firepower he presents would wipe them out. The thing is that a servant wouldn't need to use that much power to kill him either as long as they can hit him. Cu would probably be in a good spot against him because Gae Bolg doesn't care about fire power when used as an anti-unit NP.

>>54257690
>Prime Zelretch deflected an entire moon. Shifted universes and dropped it.

Why are Fatefags arguing against someone who can do this

>>54257735

What about several NPs together?

>>54257761
Let them have their fun.

>>54257761
Who *did* do this. That was Zelretch at his prime power, that he lost.

Which would be the power he'd be at if he could be summoned as a Servant, though I doubt he'd be considered a Heroic Spirit.
Fucker's probably well past even Divine Spirit levels.

>>54257792

Listen, servant containers and saint graphs can get weird.

>>54257792
From what I've been reading here Zelretch would be worthy of being summoned as a Grand Servant.

Gilgamesh too.

>>54257735
You'd be surprised. Ea has rivals now. Excalibur got retconned into being partially sealed unless certain conditions are met, at which time it becomes the ultimate Earth defense weapon. Vasavi Shakti is a beam so powerful that, while only able to be used once, can kill gods just through sheer force, which is why it could beat said Alien entity in Extella (the alien had a conceptual advantage against anything that wasn't very simple or that ran on conceptual power).

>>54257822
Zelretch is on par with Solomon without even being a Servant.

Gilgamesh is explicitly the strongest Servant. He can be summoned at any conceivable level, as he's too powerful for that.

>>54257834
>He can be summoned at any conceivable level, as he's too powerful for that.

People keep forgetting this.
He has no "class" in actuality.

>>54257761
He could only do it once and he loses physical battles against stronger servants.

>>54257792
I wouldn't go that far, but he was strong. That being said, there are already servants that could fight and beat Divine Spirits.

I preferred the above answer that Solomon, Zelretch and Gilgamesh are the three strongest 'Casters', and that trying to determine 'who would win' in a three-way duel is too tricky of a matter.

You people are fighting over something that can't be solved.

>>54257904
>he loses physical battles against stronger servants.

How opinionated of you.

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>>54255557
those are some weird bro pecs

>>54257822
Zelretch being summoned as a Grand Servant would be cool. He does strike me as someone capable of taking on Solomon.

Other than Gilgamesh, I wonder what other magicians would be eligible for Grand Caster status.

>>54257938
He was still human, and servant class containers buff even weak servants above human level. As a DAA, stronger servants are still more impressive physically.

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>>54257975
>what other magicians would be eligible for Grand Caster status.

Hermes Trismegistus

>>54257987
> As a DAA, stronger servants are still more impressive physically.

Depends on the Ancestor. Some of them outmatch the strongest of Servants.
They're few and far between of the twenty-seven however,

>>54257975
Merlin is, but he also prefers fighting with a sword.

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>>54257975

>>54249514
Serenity's entire MO is being a honey pot waifu. I feel like there's some fun potential for metacommentary there which gets buried under the F/GO MC's convenient poison immunity and the fact that she's REALLY fucking cute

>>54258014
>Some of them outmatch the strongest of Servants.
>They're few and far between

ORT (above Primate Murder)
Crimson Moon (stronger than any Servant)
Zelretch (he beat Crimson Moon)
Primate Murder (was said to be equal to seven counter guardians)
Brunestud (enough said)
?
?