ITT: I post lizardfolk and you do the same.
Discussion of your ideal lizardfolk also welcome.
>>54226432
Lizard-brain incarnate. Eat, drink, kill, repeat 'till you take on something too big for you.
Anybody have snake people?
>>54226796
a couple semi-related
>>54226824
>>54226860
>>54226890
>>54226432
On the rare occasion a DM actually lets me play a Lizardfolk, I always go for a good/nice/amicable lizard man, mostly because I personally don't feel capable of playing anything neutral/evil aligned, nor do I have much interest in doing so.
My lizards are always spellcasters as well.
>>54226907
What do you lizard-lovers look for in racial traits? I'm making my own system and want a reptilian lizardfolk race, but I'm specifically trying to make the racial traits interesting while being open to many potential characters. What racial traits do you give lizardfolk besides cold blooded and maybe something about tough skin/natural weapons?
>>54227032
Warhammer fantasy nailed lizardmen absolutely spot fucking on.
>>54227009
>>54227057
OP here, in no particular order:
- aquatic (fully aquatic if amphibious, partially aquatic if reptilian)
- poor vision
- excellent swimming
- explosive power with little endurance. For creatures with legs, unusual jump height.
- take a page from shark/croc physiology - electroreceptors on the face/skin that can FEEL your heartbeat in the water
- toe claw e.g. dino raptors for dat jump attack
- flashy colouration if not camouflaged
- thick coat of downy feathers that would aid warmth and rile up people that can't get over
- partial ectothermy (i.e. mesothermic thermoregulation)
- venomous saliva/poisonous skin
I'd think about including a suite of cultural behaviours that these racial traits would influence too, like:
- basking ingrained into cultures
- rare communal feasting, perhaps coinciding with a lunar event.
- excessive clothing in colder climates.
- love/hate relationship with fire depending on intelligence (dovetails with ectothermy nicely, "now I can bask wherever I want!")
- aquatic domestication/farming etc
- minimal parenting (eggs, r-selection strategies etc)
>>54227190
*that can't get over the idea of spiny/feathered dinos*
>>54227120
they fucking did.
Back in my day they were called Beast Folk.
>>54227264
Your days sucked dick then
>>54227264
kinda makes sense. nice big umbrella term for all anthro creatures with '-folk' suffix.
Crocodilian folk > Frog guys > Turtle dudes.
All other herptile-men are inferior to these three (but still fucking excellent of course)
>>54228202
Why is Leatherhead such a bro?
Man I want to justgive him a hug and tell him everything will be just fine, then hang out in a purely close friend fashion.
>>54228283
>You will neverwarm Leatherhead with your endothermic mammal squishy hugs
Feels bad man
>>54226796
Argonians are pretty cool. I hope whenever ESVI decides to show up we can see the Hist and all their crazy tree shit (and experience Blighttown but in the elder scrolls universe).
Also, the ever important question:tits or no tits?
>>54228321
>>54228307
Constrictor Snake people.
They are giant sized and prefer to live near water being adept swimmers, naturally their primary form of hunting and killing is to wrestle their prey to death and crush them. While there are plenty of large fauna for them to feed on there are some that prefer humanoids primarily for the challenge and typically less horns and hooves to have to squeeze down into their stomachs.
While typically individualistic they can and do have family units spread out over a wide area perferring to give each other wide berths were possible until such events as coming together for war or to mate.
Viper snake folks are normal humanoid size and, in spire of their poisonious bites, are well accepted in numerous humanoid socities perferring smaller prey typically of the size of dogs and cats. They also tend to preserve their venom and make it a point to keep their young away from people as the children are more apt to bite than adults when frieghtened.
>>54226432
Man TW's Kroxigor art is fucking great.though it looks a bit like Feraligator.
>>54228355
why Blighttown? Massive main Hist tree with undead spirits beneath?
also no tits for sure.
anybody lurking?
>>54228355
I've wanted Argonia ever since I read those Decumus Scotti books. Just hope they don't take any cues from Online.
Depends on the setting. But I honestly don't mind them or find them implausible like some do.
>>54227042
Ladies night out I guess?
>>54228397
Poison. Poison everywhere.
Years ago I played a game of DnD as a lizardfolk ranger.
My fighting style was very simple: Gauntlets, spike armor, and a belt of enlarge person. I'd just grapple people and vigorously shake against them, turning them into meaty ribbons.
>>54228605
>kirk was a lizard the whole time
Would a lizardman culture encourage taking siestas, or would it encourage sleeping in before going to work?
>>54228963
I think it would depend on if they were coldblooded or not. But if they where I think that they would do it before work.
With Feathers!
>>54226432
Im thinking of having intelligent utahraptors as my lizard folk.
>>54228371
And that's a bad thing?
>>54226432
Gotta love the croc-folk aesthetic.
Planning to make my next character a Lizard-folk ranger and probably get very into detailing their lifecycle. Either with a crocodile companion (a family member who didn't develop to the "two legs" stage) or an ape so I can constantly talk about how "I've got a smooth-skin too!"
>>54227190
>>minimal parenting (eggs, r-selection strategies etc)
For most species of reptile yeah, but crocodilians are actually pretty good parents, especially the mothers. A civilized croc-men race would probably look pretty similar to humans in terms of child-care, maybe more like western civilization than eastern in that they would tend to leave the family unit almost immediately after reaching maturity.
>>54227285
>>54227325
The duality of man
>>54226481
>that armour disk
I love that thing, its so rare to see it used in designs.
>>54228355
>no underground highway fast travel system
>no making poisons and their antidotes from rare plants
>no gaining the trust of the natives to learn their secrets
>no sap initiation into the secrets of the Hist and the world
>no gaining entrance to the realm of the Hist to survive landfall
I honestly think Bethesda would totally screw up TES: Argonia. It would be too weird to sell to most people. So much of the good argonian lore is OOG or fan interpretation.
Also tits for argonians outside of Black Marsh, no tits for those in black marsh. They need that sap somehow.
>>54228420
Those books got me hooked on TES lore.
It's a shame TESO goes so heavy on the Mesoamerican stuff. Then again it does have them literally worshipping Sithis, so I'm not regarding any of that game as canon with writing is that retarded.
Sithis is NO. It is a binary state, not an entity. It is the original creator because it reacted with Anuiel, YES, to create MAYBE and therefore creation.
>>54226796
>>54228355
No tits. The point of lizardmen for me is to be alien to humans, considering how they would evolve from different biological class.
>>54226432
A race of lizardmen that can be divided into seven sub races all capable of breeding with one another but not other races. They look like human lizards, crocs, turtles, frilled lizards, snakes, frogs, and dinosaurs .
>>54230442
I think it's called mirror armor.
>>54227120
They are my absolute favourite.
I just wish there was more official art, especially coloured art, of lizardmen from various blessed spawnings.
>>54230894
...is there more?
>>54226890
does that snake have boobs?
>>54232209
That's a page from the Overlord manga.
There's 11 light-novels, however much manga, and a 12 ep anime covering volumes 1-3.
>>54232311
They're venom glands anon, the devs said so.
>>54226432
>>54232348
Is the big lizardabout to have sex with the little one? What was the "oh, no" for, spontaneous erection?
>>54232348
>That's a page from the Overlord manga.
mmm? Overlord? The lich anime? It has a manga? I thought it was a light novel
>We have need of your best performer. Do not ask why, or we will hiss and flare our crests at you.
>>54232402
It's better explained in the novel, but the 'oh no' is that he's just walked into her hut, being that she's the acting chief of a tribe he's trying to get help from, and basically propositioned her without thinking.They do fug, but later on.
>>54232417
It is. (New books coming end of the year I'm hyped already)
The novels came first, then the manga and the anime was last.
>>54226796
i really dig how disorienting it being a clear snake but with a fat albino dude just kinda stapled to the underside is
>have a lizardfolk PC at our table
>always trying to seduce the pretty girls he comes across
>not in a that-guy way, but roleplaying as an aloof hopeless sap that can't even make it to first base, but never gets discouraged to try at least once
>the one time he doesn't try is when he comes across a female Harefolk engineer who's more in tune and fascinated with gears and gadgets than people, barely even acknowledging the party
>Once the party is getting ready to head back down to the hamlet after completing a task for her she asks the lizardfolk to stay for a moment
>"Sorry, I don't mean to interrupt whatever your plans were, I just need you to strip down so I can examine and study that fantastic body of yours."
of course, the DM faded to black. The lizardfolk now calls himself a true ladies man and now adopts the style of posing at every counter and doorframe fishing for a lady to take notice of him.
>>54232972
Hot damn that's pretty excellent.
>>54232972
>not in a that-guy way
I have doubts about this and both the fact it was someone else playing it
>>54226675
Painfully thicc
>>54234175
I'd let him fuck me.
>>54234308
I wouldn't.
He's ugly.
This fella on the other hand is perfect
>>54226881
>>54227004
I can understand not wanting to play an evil character but why not neutral
I like this qt.
Would want to have on board of my spaceship as mechanic
>>54234352
Because I like playing good characters that are typically out to help others. Probably sounds silly, but it's what I enjoy.
>>54234352
it's hard for me to get into a character that isn't out to be a hero; gotta have those ideals and morals
>>54234419
>>54234463
I can understand that, I generally play neutral characters as good people that are simply to flawed to perform the sacrifice necessary to be good
>>54232373
Looks like Mignola. Or someone impersonating him.
>>54234405
>>54228355
I don't mind tits. Like, sometimes people have legitimate reasons for leaving them off, but if I can see them as lizards with tits or without tits, it shouldn't matter which one of those options is chosen, right?
And sometimes I feel like people leave off the tits for a sense of legitimacy or because it doesn't seem right, but humanoid lizards aren't technically right as they are, you know? And you don't need to legitimize yourself to me by cutting away anything sexual, it's not like the moment I see tits my mind explodes into 100 percent lust. Just do what you want, don't feel pressured either way - I like tits, but I won't hate you for leaving them off. Just don't feel like they have to always be left off.
>>54235364
Mostly, I just like my alien races to be kept a bit, well, alien. There's no real reason to put tits on a lizard other than either wanting to make it hotter, or wanting to make it look more like a human, I feel. So I'm pretty firmly in the camp of "without tits if possible, please". I'm not going to sperg out at them, but it's definitely my preference.
At the risk of having shit taste, the krogan, if they count, are probably my favourite lizardfolk. I like their heft.
>>54235743
I like them too.
They are among the best Lizardfolk you can get.
I would love to play as one in some fantasy setting.
Their regenerate ability would make them invincible probably and they would conquer the whole world.
>>54235743
Shepard!
>>54235743
they're definitely a "well-worldbuilt" take on an intelligent reptilian race. I assume Bioware didn't want the classic 'lizard' aesthetic and came up with an interesting physiology that then informed their well-developed culture too.
(also >>54227039 10/10 would be uncle/godfather to horde of baby krogans)
>tribe of frogs hires players
>lizard folk have been bullying froggies more often
>players deal with it and investigate more
>lizard folk only acting up because leather heads are gone
>BBEG recruited croc-tribe into army
Prepare for dump 1/7
>>54236509
2/7
>>54236526
3/7
>>54236542
4/7
>>54236559
5/7- I love this god damn game so much, I'd f*** it.
>>54236575
6/7
>>54236607
7/7 - Enjoy all this stuff you guys are going to steal for your next session.
>>54234393
Look at that thing's ass.
>>54235958
Wrex?
>>54230181
10/10 right there
>>54236320
>herptile politics informed by the food chain
Love it
>>54226432
My Lizardmen primarily look like Crocodiles with a mix of Dragon and serpentine features. They are called Ophions and were created by a cosmic serpent unlike Humans which were created by many different Gods.
Ophions live to about 250 years, dont suffer any negative effects of aging until their final years, never stop growing, and have powers of regeneration (they can regrow lost limbs). They are immune to poison and disease also. Their biggest weakness is that they cant use magic as easily or effectively as Humans can. They are also very weak to the cold and generally reproduce slower than Humans do.
Overall they are about as intelligent as Humans are but their culture is pretty different. They are ruled by an all powerful theocracy with there being no distinction between the army, church, and state. Crime rates are very low and merchants are so despised that they are basically exiles not allowed to stay in one place for too long.
Their buildings are like ancient Greek or Mayan temples. Serpents are their most sacred animal. Their signature weapon are two handed falx swords.
Pic related
>>54238919
shit how could I forget that image? Probably the best lizardman art out there (minus those impractically fuckhuge claws)
>>54226826
I was playing a lizardman whose entire reason for adventuring was to get as much ass as possible. This picture is almost exactly how he described "the most beautiful woman in my village" the other PC's were rather horrified.
>>54234308
I doubt you could stop him.
>>54226432
I wonder why people didn't like the Lizardmen redesigns. The Kroxigars look badass
>>54239224
Why would I want to?
>>54234833
>Looks like Mignola
It is Mignola anon
I've always liked Trandoshans. Space lizard mercs/bounty hunters
>>54240884
Trandoshans are awesome. One of the most unique and coolest-looking races in all of star wars. Too many were just 'Humans but they have X skin colour(s) and some extra shit on their head'.
Space lizards!
PFs Vesk are going to be interesting. This for instance is a female.
>>54227190
Turtles are terrible parents that abandon their eggs.
Snakes are medÃocre parents that care for their eggs but don't care for their young.
Crocodiles are good parents that care for their young.
>>54232125
>>54230442
So 'mirror' armor was fairly common throughout East/South Asia up through the 17th century and thus goes by a lot of names, from char-aina (Persian) to sar-ayna (Kazakh), etc etc.
It's functionally transitional armor with 4 large steel plates protecting the front, sides, and back, although (much like modern soldiers and modern body armor) oftentimes the side plates were apparently not worn (possibly for weight/comfort reasons). The plates would be polished, giving it its name.
There's a lot of variation within real-life examples of the armor. Many South Asian examples have the plates punched through with mail at the edges (rather than plates over mail), and so on.
>>54228355
tits all the way
>>54237352
Shepard!
>>54243232
>Som we are coming together to Karaoke after our Shift ends right, Bro?
>Don't forget, you promised we would go this time!
>>54227190
I've often thought about how ectotherms would explore and remain active when the weather and climate were against them. I figured the higher magic settings would use enchanted clothes or jewelry to keep them warm. In low/no magic settings or if the lizardmen just don't have the magic tech I envision them using heavy cloaks and fur robes with a bundle of smoldering twigs wrapped in green or fireproof material under the robes. Maybe if they have the smithing some sort of oil or coal powered burner or brazier on a chain around their necks.
I think the image of a lizard man wearing a leather cape and cowl with smoke drifting out of the sleeves and cowl would be both awesome and terrifying .
>>54244754
>>54243232
>>54244641
Of course we are, fool. You forgot we're celebrating my upcoming retirement?
Once we bag Mendosa, me and my old lady are going fulfil our life long dream of sailing around the world in our own private yacht.
Yes sir, everything's going to turn out-
Does anyone have photos of frilled lizard lizardfolk?
>>54245338
>>54240987
>>54240884
They look like Gorn on purpose because Lucas is a petty childish Cunt!
>its another thinly veiled furry thread
>>54230417
Fuck you Tim, you don't even play D&D. Old ass man. AND WE FUCKING KNOW YOU'RE NOT A GODDAMN ARMY VET DUDE.
>>54227057
You could give them some form of limb-regrowth, akin to lizards who can lose their tails and regrow them.
>>54248343
I wouldn't call this one veiled at all- not "what would a lizardman society be like haha this is a discussion :3" but rather outright "post furshit".
>>54248343
>anime image
every time
>>54248785
>anime
its a French cartoon you weeb
Here, get a fresh OC from an upcoming homebrew of mine
>>54244506
w...wrex....?
>>54235743
Check out the quads on this guy.I like
him.
Agreed. Krogan are great.
>>54227120
This too.
Why are Aztec lizardfolk just the best fantasy race?
>>54251726
Aztecs lived in a swamp they turned into an island land lake, Lizards do well in swaps
Ritual blood sacrifices never hurt everyone either.
>>54251726
Because I love warhammer lizardmen to death.
Because Aztecs worshipped a giant snake.
Because reptiles hate the cold, and Aztecs are Mediterraneans
Because Aztec aesthetic is culturally strange and far away, much like dinosaurs and reptiles.
>>54251726
I prefer lizardfolk to have Flintstones type technology while living in trees. Barely any metallurgy (decorative gold casting perhaps) but fairly complex machinery made from pulleys, levers, water pipes and whatnot.
Each treehouse would have running water from a system of bamboo pipes connected to hollowed-out giant trees serving as water towers which are filled during monsoon season and such.
http://www.strawpoll.me/13401363
http://www.strawpoll.me/13401363
http://www.strawpoll.me/13401363
http://www.strawpoll.me/13401363
http://www.strawpoll.me/13401363
Very important poll! If your favorite reptile isn't on here then it probably sucks.
>>54230181
Feathered lizardfolk best folk
>>54251982
>no lizardman riding dinosaur
good image by the way
>>54251982
>chameleon man
Aww yeah
>>54227264
>>54227325
The -folk suffix always soubds like you are calling them fantasy nignogs, to me. Its extremely reductive and patronizing with how it sounds. Though I'm sure most people on /tg/ either want them to be upright animals they can smite withoyt feeling bad or fetishized animals they xan fuck, rather than anything with a nuanced and thriving culture that is not second fiddle to humans, dwarfs and elves.
>>54252080
That makes me want to use -folk even more even though I've been using man because of dwarf fortress.
>>54244754
>I think the image of a lizard man wearing a leather cape and cowl with smoke drifting out of the sleeves and cowl would be both awesome and terrifying
Fantastic idea
>>54252180
Beastman is the best catchall term. Folk is for faglords who like kender.
This whole thread has inspired me to play a Lizardfolk in my next RPG if it is allowed.
Saltwater Crocs a best, by the way.
Got this one done in a drawthread the other day.
Plan on using it at some point.
>>54248785
Anime > Furryshit
>>54254216
I had to check this. This is most certainly not tg, but it's sadly real.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/07/wildlife-watch-india-monitor-lizard-poaching-plant-root-hatha-jodi/
Boo on you for ruining a cool thread with your real life stuff. You made me sad.
Anyone got any more Asian, Japanese, or specifically samurai-looking crocodiles/alligators?
>>54251754
>Ritual blood sacrifices never hurt everyone either.
I'm pretty sure the dude on the altar would disagree with that assessment, Anon.
>>54254216
>>54254595
>pajeets are worthless shitskins
No surprise here m8
>>54254996
If they are on the altar they don't count as real people anymore. We both know this already, anon, come on.
>>54255412
You don't know very much about how sacrifices work, do you? You need to sacrifice people, and it has to be cool people. Enemies that fought bravely, that kind of thing. You can't just toss fucking sheep at the Sun God. Do you want an era of eternal darkness? Because that's how you get an era of eternal darkness.
>>54255688
Don't be a snooty booty, you know damn well what I mean. If they are brought to the altar as sacrifices they are no longer people and their coolness is forfeit.
>>54226779
Cold one with the boys. kek'd xD
>>54256695
>xd
What the fuck is wrong with you?
>>54226675
swwEEET SEMUANYA IS THAT THING PART TARRASQUE?
>Ctrl +F
>"Kaiman"
>0 matches
>>54256997
You are a wonderful anon. I was about to post him.
>>54251982
>http://www.strawpoll.me/13401363
split 36 and 36 between the best choices for the majority. tg, don't let me down.
>>54252497
they just cropped the head off this pic?
>>54258284
>>54252497
kek'd
>>54258316
>>54252497
not gonna lie though pacelic has some sweet stuff.
filename also thread related I guess
>>54258349
>>54258365
>>54258382
>>54258349
>>54258419
>>54258444
>>54239091
>>54258463
>>54258500
>>54258521
>>54258543
>>54258566
>>54258707
>>54258740
I dun goofed you guys. Last session, I ate two kobolds one out of intimidation tactics and other because I got pissed at taking a crossbow bolt.
I think I accidentally set a bad precedent for stuff in the future.
>>54226432
Kicking around a race concept that tries to retain a croc's rip-and-tear approach to life.
>Top-heavy, with a thick tail to maintain balance for a prowling stance
>Back is dense and spiky, Front is just dense
>Arms are big, surprisingly average in strength, and deceivingly flexible.
>After locking the target in a deathgrip the hands, wrestling techniques are used to quickly dislocate limbs out of sockets and disrupt centers of balance
>The lizardfolk quickly twists his own body for leverage to rip flesh from bone
>The target is then crushed under the spiked weights of the lizardfolk
>Head is often kept above and aware of the surroundings to know when to disengage and coordinate with allies
>>54259520
this probably works very well with the mechanics of volos guide lizards, if youre into DnD that is.
Also why has nobody mentioned Iksar yet?
>>54259520
Why average arm strength?
>>54260272
Not sure how to describe it, but more focus on flexibility and toughness compared to pulling force.
Against a normal arm of the same size, they'd probably lose in raw strength.
>>54260327
Fair enough. I think crocs have very good arms, and pull enough strength to run really fast. But maybe running doesn't require strength dunno kek
>>54254996
It was generally considered a great exaltation and honour, actually, even for their fiercest rivals. The priests were skilled enough at inducing blood euphoria in their victims to give a miraculous, even messianic validation to the sacrifices that proved crucial in establishing acceptance and veneration among the masses; moreso, it was a literal manifestation of the ideal of the sacrifices of the noble few for the good of the common many, a concept central to many religions around the world, and a reflection and validation of the Aztec social hierarchy.
>>54260524
yeah, they're good a pouncing, which IS closer to high strength/low flex arms, but I don't think you can have the true croc whirling biting machine with a humanoid body/standing posture.
>>54260524
I think it's fair to say crocs/alligators have a fair amount of explosive strength, but their endurance is shit.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x47dgyo
>>54226890
>embrace Snek
>>54260641
>but their endurance is shit.
This. How would we translate endurance into tabletop?
>>54260664
low HP
>>54248811
>Higurashi no Naku Koro ni
>French
It's anime you faggot. Now go back to listening to your wife getting fucked by Ali Baba while you watch Wakfu.
>>54260562
>Hide Aztecboo threads
>Ignore Aztecboo Posts
>Do Not Reply To Aztecboo Posters
>>54260664
fatigue levels or something. low stamina but high strength. only a few 'action points', or if there's a pool of them, they regenerate slower. high movement speed but then recuperate X number of rounds?
>>54260755
>>54260664
OR something tied to their need to bask. What if they accumulated a certain amount of 'heat' (proxy for action points) per hour of sunlight basked, and they can use these for special actions of exertion. Recoup X heat points/hour, faster in warmer climates, slower in colder climates.
>>54260755
It should have a high sprinting, but slow or regular movement speed.
>crocs are strong, dexterous, intelligent
>have low HP, and high speed
Best race
>>54260810
Are caves and underground places cold of warm? I have never been in one.
>>54260889
Pretty cold near the entrance, getting warmer the deeper you get. It increases fairly uniformly with depth (in the lithosphere at least).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geothermal_gradient
>>54260889
>>54260927
Which means you can have deep crocs hidden in your subterranean lakes.
>Drags you under
>torch extinguished in water
>Fight murdercroc in darkness
>>54260927
Damn. So crocs would do just fine while dungeoing. How long can they stay out of water, forever? Can they see in the dark?
Is there anything a croc can't do?
>>54260986
A croc won't need to see very well once you're in its jaws.
>>54260986
crocs have excellent night vision and are mostly nocturnal hunters. massive underground system of caves? slightly troglodytic lizardfolk perhaps?
>>54260986
also, they can indeed stay out of water forever, but they'd be shit at catching prey (seeing as 250 million years of evolution has adapted them quite well for water ambushes)
>>54261109
I think crocodilian hunting skills could apply to any ambush situation, inside or outside water, as long as visibility is limited. Darkness, smoke, illusions, etc.
>>54261109
>(seeing as 250 million years of evolution has adapted them quite well for water ambushes)
You know, I have started to doubt it takes that long. Considering a catfish semi-mastered it in less than a 100 years.
http://www.express.co.uk/showbiz/tv-radio/742369/Planet-Earth-2-pigeon-catfish-David-Attenborough-BBC
Check the video in this page, really good and really short, just 2 minutes long of a fucking catfish imitating a croc.
>>54261234
Oh it certainly didn't, probably a few million to tens of millions years after the Great Dying (250ish mya). It was mostly hyperbole. I'm surprised there aren't more water-to-surface ambush predators.
>>54258284
>>54258316
You laugh, but no. I had some ears shoop'd onto it and the background color changed so the hair would stand out more. The more expressive eyes I did myself.
>>54254216
>niggers torture animals for their retarded voodoo magic
shocking
>>54261429
draw a lizard and I will forgive you
I love lizards by the way
>>54251982
So little support for snake-men. You plebs.
>>54226432
Something like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjQ2t_yNHQs I guess.