casters > martials

In good settings, wizards can't warp reality.

Any setting with wizards limits their power so they don't literally run the world with an iron fist. That's usually why the pointy metal stick does enough damage to kill the magic man.

>>54195842
Then they aren't really wizards then are they.

It wouldn't make any sense whatsoever if casters weren't beefier than martials.

>>54195821
We just had this thread. You used the same image and practically the same post

>>54195870
Yes they are.

Its magic that has its limitations and rules

>>54195870

Gandalf couldn't cast Meteor Swarm, Wish, Gate, or True Resurrection, but he's still THE archetypal wizard.

>>54196054
What exactly COULD Gandalf do?

I remember he zapped some goblins with lightning bolts in the Hobbit but he doesn't seem to be that powerful.

Why does everyone fear and respect him? Is he hiding his true power level or what?

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>>54195821

>He thinks a shitty two-bit stage magician should be as powerful as Hercules

>>54196084
LotR is a high fantasy setting with low magic, you dimwit.

He's feared and respected on account of his capabilities being so much higher than most within the confines of Middle Earth.

>>54196084

>Not that powerful
He killed a fucking Balrog.

>>54196084
The Istari wizards were forbidden from exercising their 'magic' too extraordinarily, albeit in dire and extreme situations.

The five wizards were sent to inspire the free folk, not become a crutch. They were even forbidden from directly challenging Sauron, which is pretty astonishing considering Word of God states Gandalf (book version) could take Sauron 1v1

>>54196164
Using physical force, no less

>>54196201
Gandalf's physique was largely magical in nature, being an angelic figure.

He was stronger than most men in their prime. The 'old man' look being a form representing their charge.

>wake up
>remember anima is a better system for low fantasy western game like demon souls than D&D
Whew the city of D&Drones

>>54196084
GANDALF.
IS.
NOT.
A.
WIZARD.
HE IS AN ANGEL.

>>54196323
Fine then stop referring to him as the archetypal wizard then >>54196054

>>54196323
You literally cannot say he isn't a wizard when he is already stated as such.

You might as well say elves aren't elves on account of how they function in the after.

>>54196054
>Gandalf from "Gandalfr" (literally Staff-Elf)
>Gandalfr is one of Odin's names
>Magic is one of Odin's domains
>Odin is sometimes depicted as wearing a blue pointed hat with a broad brim

I don't mean to piss in your pocket, but I thought it was worth mentioning. If Tolkein had written Lord of the Rings with access to the internet, he would have been called a hack.

>>54196323
Gandalf is a wizard. How can one be so fucking retarded? Magic is more of a profession, you don't lose said profession by being something other than human. Odin was a fucking god-wizard, anon.

>>54196340
Gandalf IS the archetypal wizard. But so is Dumbledore, Elminster and of course Merlin.

>>54196192
>which is pretty astonishing considering Word of God states Gandalf (book version) could take Sauron 1v1
Wasn't that due to the fear of Istari just replacing Sauron as the Middle-earth's main tyrant when he got too confident with their power? Or that they'd fall to his side due to Sauron's high persuasion?

>>54196389
Both

And the fact that Eru wanted the free peoples to triumph on their own.

>>54195821
conan the cimmerian would like to have a word with you, and by "have a word with you" I of course mean "put his boot through your dumb sorcerer face"

>>54196408
Funny that the strongest of sorcerers in the Conan novels could not be bested by steel and brawn.

He literally had to find a macguffin to tackle the strongest sorcerer in the canon, Xaltotun.

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>>54195821
>he thinks he can just make more of these shit threads

>>54196408
Conan wouldn't have the slightest chance of defeating a D&D wizard.

>>54196431
getting outsmarted by a martial still counts as getting beaten. the idea that the only thing warriors should be able to do is a.) punch, or b.) punch harder is baggage from ONE edition of D&D from more than a decade ago

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>>54196466
>he can
>they still get 300+ replies

>>54196478
But it was... Teh epikalest forteh win xD. So we only play that or his lil EPIC bro 5e!!!

>>54196478
Except he couldn't outsmart Xaltotun. He had to get other witches and sorcerers alongside a magical artifact to beat him.

Then there was Yah Chieng. Conan needed a god's help to beat him. He wasn't even as powerful as Xaltotun to begin with.

>>54196408
>regularly shits on reality-bending tier sorcerers
>beats godlike creatures from demonic dimensions like it's fucking nothing
>casually walks off injuries that'd be sufficient to kill virtually everybody else
>maintains reasonable tax policy during his reign
Absolutely based.

>He still plays reddit and normies
You know how I know you are an IQ 90 burger flipping lefty?

It was her turn to lose after no refunds libtards.

>>54196519
ok, so there have been tons of conan stories over the years and there are exceptions to the rule. It's not true that every single martial can beat every single caster, sometimes even conan needs help. Even so, if you need a palate cleanser after experience bad martial/caster balance in a certain popular roleplaying game, there are tons of examples from Conan to be going on with

>>54196527
>maintains reasonable tax policy during his reign
hell yeah. somewhere out there, a single greasy tear rolls down GRRM's face

>>54196564
I think the big thing people fail to realize is this.

The strongest of casters will -always- be stronger than the strongest of martials.

You need to work around them indirectly to have a chance at besting them. Never in a direct confrontation.

>>54196594
The one anon who mentioned Hercules makes me think.
Could there be a way for a martial to become this kind of demi-god without retroactively having Zeus as a father? Or at least gain magic resistance to compete, and use the regular fighter's superhuman feats to threaten wizards.

>>54196534
Are you okay anon?

>>54196734
So the only way for martials to compete with casters is to become demigods?

Martials will always be weaker than casters since they're all muscle. The only thing that martials can accomplish are feats of great physical prowess. Casters can do so much more.

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>>54196734
in fantasy world some mortal men are born with potential beyond that of the normies. rivaling gods in their power as they gain skill and experience. most of these people become fighters, rangers and rogues. though not all ever realize their full potential some rise up to become mightier than any mortal. even wizards have a respect for them knowing if it were not for their magical talent they would be nothing compared to these gods among men.

>>54196808

Sounds like more wizards than martials to me.

>>54196137
Your image miffs me.

The dude who is mad hints at TSR D&D, then says
>then people of equivalent LEVELS should be ABOUT the same fucking strength.
when older editions gave classes seperate do costs for leveling, so that characters of similar so totals would have similar strength.

>>54196164
By the sword.

Gandalf threw lightbulbs, gave rousing speeches, and had a lighter built into his ring.

>>54196323
>ANGEL
Istari/Maiar

>>54196223
That's the same reason Herakles doesn't count as a martial, right?

>>54196478
>baggage from ONE edition of D&D
This is baggage from literally every edition of D&D except 4e.

>>54196896
the problem is that you assume martials in a FANTASY universe are inherently mundane. we know nothing about the physical limits of mortals that operate in a fantasy universe where magic and gods exist to influence the world.

>>54196756
Not exactly demigods, but remember when monks had insane magic resistance when they got to whatever level ?
I'm kinda just thinking of things like that. Hercules' durability is out of the question, but simply gaining resistance could do the trick.

Wizards are pretty strong in pathfinder

>>54196929
This. There is room for a lot of non magic-related awesomeness in fantasy settings. Even if it requires a quest for the martial to become this way, I don't really care.

>>54196971
Excellent picture.

Bahahahaha

Arguing that martials need superpowers to combat casters

Hilarious

>>54196950
Okay so let's say we give martials very high magic resistance accross the board. How does this help martial/caster disparity in any way?

In case you'd forgotten, the martial isn't fighting the caster, they're both on the same team fighting monsters together.

If you want the martial to be more useful you need to give monsters magic resistance so that the caster can't just obliterate them.

The problem is, as I've mentioned many times, martials are limited to feats of physical prowess. Casters can do so much more than that. That's why casters > martials.

>>54196971
What's that picture trying to say exactly?

That martial/caster disparity exists and nothing can be done about it?

>>54197028
it's a list of caster arguements in the form of text and martial rebuttals in the form of pictures.

Today I fucked up a sorcerer that got cocky. A martials greatest tool is his ability to be underestimated.

>>54197038
>A martials greatest tool is the low IQ of sorcerers

Fixed

>>54196998
Well at least wizards need superpowers to rival fighters.

>>54197066
That's kind of their gig to begin with.

Your point?

:^)

>>54197066
kek

maybe use some magic, you filthy fighter. battle-mages are at least respectable.

>>54197004
Giving ennemies (not necessarily monsters) magic resistance was kind of implied, though not clearly I'll admit.
But then if we are talking about what can be done, I'm in favour of magical devices, or simply using several objects with a bit of thought (ropes, oil, old lighter, throwing knives, bolas, smoke screens)

>>54195821
>letting casters get that powerful without severe consequences
I guess maybe they could bend reality once, but only if they want to kill themselves from over-exertion.

>>54197141
Nobody cares about your setting. We're talking about D&D.

>>54197154
So that's why you need to worry about a martial-caster disparity! :^)

>>54197164
Yeah, that's right.

>>54197154
This.

Every single thread there's that one faggot who comes along with

>b-but in my setting wizards are nothing more than frail old men with no magical powers and fighters are conan the destroyer

Nobody gives a shit dude. We're talking about the most popular RPG in the world.

>>54197180
To be fair, in most tabletop rpgs casters reign supreme.

They're just fuckin' SALTY

>>54196054
>>54196084
>>54196365

The Archetype Wizard is King Solomon.

>Bizzare if not absent sense of right and wrong
>Extremely clever and wise
>Summons demons to labour for him
>Knew all forms of magic from enslaving demons
>On God's good side despite having a billion wives and mistresses and the demon summoning
>Richest fucker to ever live
>Cuts babies in half and laughs about it

Solomon

>>54197180
>most popular RPG in the world.
Too bad it's shit, huh?

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>>54197195

Solomon is pretty wizard, yeah.

>>54197195
Funny you should mention him, when I immediately regretted not putting him with Gandalf, Dumbledore and Merlin after I posted that comment.

>>54197204
Ah the familiar autistic screech of the D&D hater.

It must really trigger you that millions of people around the world have fun playing D&D.

>>54197224
I mean, they could be having more fun if they played something that wasn't shit.
I'm just looking out for them.

>>54197233
>opinions
The system you're using has very little impact on something as subjective as "fun".

D&D is familiar and accessible while still having a good amount of depth.

Stay mad, hater.

>>54197221
>>54197195
>>54197212
Right so the archetype wizard is

>Usually an older guy
>Somewhat unkempt and raggety looking
>Keeps own council, behavior seems bizzare or inexplicable due to then having more info than you
>Prefer to manipulate things to their favour quietly
>Despite seeming frail and humble are incredibly mighty
>Socially challenge but could pull rows of bitches if they wanted
>Generally chill as long as you don't fuck with them or get in their way
>Usually initiated into the inner mysteries of the universe
>Smoke dank ass weed and fuck magical bitches half the time

>>54197268
You're in a thread where people are arguing about the imbalance between casters and martials and how it may negatively influence the gameplay (a.k.a. making it less enjoyable)
You know that, right?
It's arguable that, for the system being discussed, that its usage does indeed impact something as subjective as "fun."

This is why I play 13th Age, the best single strikers are martials, 10d12 base attack, before adding powers and maneuvers? Yes Please.

>>54195821
Why another thread? Do you enjoy picking on martials?

Not a bad thing. Just curious.

>>54195821
This thread again?

>>54196929
The peak of human strength is someone pulling a bus with their dick.

The peak of human ingenuity allowed us to create the atomic bomb.

Yet people think that STR and INT are equals somehow.

>>54197038
Nobody gives a shit about Sorcerers, so congrats on beating someone who likely dumped INT for their character build.

>>54197307
Oh yeah, 26 morons (at best) screeching about an issue that barely impacts the game for the people who understand OBVIOUSLY proves how it can impact the fun for the minority.

>>54197443
>>54197656
Not him but /tg/ is such a shithole nowadays that if you're not interested in generals, D&D, WH40K, or MtG; there isn't really a whole lot of interesting threads to get into.

So better to bump up troll threads and get some sort of discussion going than lurk through the catalog to find nothing of interest.

>>54198421
One thing I liked about 5E was that fighters/rogues got more ability score improvments, so they could be strong and smart while magic users were just smart.

>>54198734
Why would any martial put their points into anything outside of physical stats when the game doesn't give them anything to use it on?

It doesn't matter if you have a 20 in INT and CHA if your class exclusively scales itself off of STR and CON.

>>54195821
>he thinks casters should have access to half the shit they have
>he thinks all magic has to be spells

>>54197195
I seem to remember that he never did any actual magic himself and just used stuff he got from angels? And mostly threw shit at demons with "god" inscribed on it. His summoning is mostly chain reactions from him threatening demons to get their buddies or else.
I mean you are not wrong, but I don't think he any powers himself except phone calls to god.

>>54198838
Because I already capped STR and CON and I like it.

>>54198924
Why not focus on DEX and WIS then since they still serve a purpose for your Fighter? It seems like a better use of your points than wasting them on flavor text.

>>54195821
Didn't we just have this thread?

>>54198955
And we'll continue to have this thread as people get rid of OC without anything to replace it.

>>54198449
>26 morons (at best)
>versus one idiot with a lot of free time
Don't you have anything better to do than keep starting garbage threads and then keeping them up? Seems like an awful waste of human life to me.

Imagine if we all spent so much time and dedication into getting mankind into space. We'd probably be halfwayacross the galaxy by now.

You are like a living embodiment of humankind squandering all its talents. It's sad.

>>54198972
We could all go and start a new quality thread instead of staying here trolling. Imagine that. Just imagine.

All of you, hide this thread and go start something you'd really love to see on /tg/. Don't just complain about shit - change begins with you.

>>54199021
Even if people did that, it'd just get dumped to the end of the catalog while anons continue to bump the thread.

Also, if people were smart enough to hide these bait threads, they wouldn't reach 300+ post consistently every time they're posted.

>>54199043
I refuse to believe that if "26 morons" all started a quality thread, at the same time, like an anti-shitpost dump, they'd all die. I refuse to believe that it would not bump up the quality of a board with only a few hundred posters in it in total.

Don't be a fatalist. Just go for it. Worst case scenario, you'll prove yourself right.

If the wizard is able to bend reality, then the fighter should be Cu Chulainn or Hercules tier.

>>54199147
Yes, we heard you the last time. Fuck off. Don't stoke the fires.

Go make a good thread instead.

>>54199107
You can find more quality threads on /v/, mainly because as shitty as it is, they're at least self-aware to know how bad their board is and the mods stopped caring enough so that decent threads can get posted so long as they're at least tangibly related to the board.

On /tg/ though, it's literally NO FUN ALLOWED! You can't post drawthreads because people will shit on you for "taking too long" to draw. You can't post "smut" without being directed to /d/ or /aco/ since everyone's a fucking prude. All the writefags left after /qst/ became a thing. You can't even post off-topic shit without it getting flamed to hell and deleted by the mods.

So what's left? Well if you're not interested in D&D, WH40K, MtG, or Generals; bait threads are your only choice for entertainment because fa/tg/uys are by far the easiest to troll because literally everything triggers them.

It's almost not even fair how easy it is to gain (you)'s, you don't even have to change the OP most times.

>>54199232
>You can't even post off-topic shit without it getting flamed to hell and deleted by the mods.
Mate there's a thread asking about the relative accuracy of pistols on the board as you shitpost. There's basically no /tg/ discussion there and it's pretty civil.

>>54199307
You mean the one started by some newfag that was too stupid to lurk and/or figure out that /k/ exists?

Yeah, great fucking example moron.

>>54199232
Excuses, whining, and baseless justification for your trolling is all I hear. If you legitimately cannot come up with anything to post that isn't forbidden or fishing for easy (you)s, then you are an unimaginitive and weak-willed defeatist and might as well go back to the/v/ you so love.

Shut the fuck up, quit dragging us even deeper into the mud, and come up with something actually imaginitive and fun instead. If you can. Can you? Will you fight, or will you perish like the dog you are?

>>54199424
>come up with something actually imaginitive and fun instead.
Why? Nothing here worth saving honestly.

>>54199362
It still directly counters your point.

It's not like people post thinly veiled /v/ threads with moderate results all the time.

>>54199459
If the OP didn't admit to being a newfag who didn't know what he was doing, people would be flaming his shit and telling him to go to /k/.

But since he admitted that he was retarded, the "intellectuals" of /tg/ deigned that his thread was free to live since they got a few snarky comments in before reinserting their heads up their own asshole.

Also, at the end of the day, lets compare which thread actually reaches the bump limit.

>>54199443
> "muh /tg/ is shit"
You ARE /tg/, asshole. We all are. If you think notjing here is worth saving, then that includes you. It's up to you to make content that you like - always your burden - and you squander it with weak trolling.

It's easy. It's seductive. The (you)s, the hundreds of guaranteed replies, they beckon you. I know. And because you do it anyway, because you fall to its lure, I call you a weak-willed defeatist dog.

Either fight it, or fuck off back to /v/, dog.

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My favorite magic systems are "low magic" ones where a Mage PC might typically get about three different spells, and still has to rely on pointy sticks/guns as much as anybody else.

>>54199559
>Getting this worked up over a shitty board
I'd suggest going out, making friends, and running your own games rather than posting in this shit heap but all know that nobody on /tg/ actually plays the games they talk about.

>>54199559
>Says trolling is weak
>Morons are still bumping the thread
>Morons will still bump the next thread
You can't really call it weak trolling if it works kid.

>>54199588
You and I could make the board not shit. You choose not to. You make excuses, dog, but we both know what you are.

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>>54197036
>caster arguments
>implying I don't exclusively play fighter or at least warlock and still agree with quite a few of these.
I'm not saying casters SHOULD me more powerful.
I just don't give a shit. in a world with magic, if a martial wants to keep up with a magician. then need to use a little magic, whether this is multiclassing or picking up a ton of magic items.

like giving a fighter an heavy auto crossbow with 2d10 total damage with a 4 bolt clip. allowing him to surge to empty his clip at lower levels and at higher levels, empty his clip in one action doing up to 8d10 damage.

if you're going to allow massive fireballs. it shouldn't be unrealistic to allow powerful magical weapons. the weapons in the DMG are pathetic.

>>54196971
That's a good bingo, but have you tried not playing D&D should be the free space since it can solve pretty much every complaint you guys have.

>>54199617
>we both know what you are.
Realistic? Because even if we both decided to make a thread, that's only two threads vs. a shitload of Generals and bait threads.

Not worth the effort honestly, especially if people are okay with bumping up threads like this while letting decent threads sink to the bottom because they don't give them enough shit to RAGE about.

>>54199656
>even if we both decided to make a thread, that's only two threads vs. a shitload of Generals and bait threads.
There are 36 posters in this thread. Imagine if all of them chose to make one. Now imagine if they also stopped to make bait threads or to post in them.

That would actually have a shot at changing something, and all effort it'd take on your part is to exercise your mental muscles enough to come up with something legitimately worth posting here.

>>54199652
not really the issue with these bingo's is much like with real bingo, everything is randomly placed so it means bingo pretty much never happens. it would be clever if people linked up common arguments presented by a type of person in a column or row but no they're just spread all over the place.

>>54199674
It would but we both know that that's not going to happen, nor would it change much if the hundreds of other fa/tg/uys continue to ignore those "quality" threads in favor of out-witting one another in some vague attempt at superiority.

If every shitposter disappeared from this board overnight, the remainder would just find something else to get mad over just to prove that they're the only wolf among sheeple and the cycle would continue.

It's why getting rid of drawthreads, smut, and quests haven't improved the quality of the board, it's because people aren't interested in discussion anymore, they're mostly interested in showing off how right they are compared to everyone else.

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>>54195821
If they are the same level, the should be of comparable power, because level is a measurement of power. If you really can't imagine a world where martials can compete with casters, then I guess a lvl1 caster is an apprentice, and a lvl1 martial is the sort of one in a million Conan-tier warriors who only comes along once in a millennium.

Level is a measurement of power, therefore equal level characters of different classes should be in the same ballpark of power.
>muh underwater basket-weaving meme
unless underwater basket-weaving is a powerful totem in this world, it shouldn't be worth PC levels, because PC levels are a measurement of power, get it?

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Casters are the best, if you are a massive faggot. It's not easy to be the apex of manliness, so the weaklings must stick to their parlor tricks to feel useful.

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>>54199746
>Levels are supposed to be equal meme

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>>54199730
How long have you been on /tg/? This has always been the case, even back when we had quests and smut. People have always shitposted, and people have always complained - it's nothing new.

But there are always also those that make quality posts, and many times when such posts and threads have flourished - and those times are what we remember over the lame easy trolls and countless identical arguments.

You could try something like that too. You could actually fight for a cause. All you have for not doing so is weak excuses and defeatism.

It's like you just said: it's just a single shitty image board. But if you can't fight even for that, if you roll over and let yourself be defeated even in these tiniest aspects of your life, how can you ever fight for what matters? We as a species always gravitate towards making lame excuses and blaming others, never looking into our own selves for the blame. You need to stop with that shit and actually do something about it.

Either post quality content, or if you don't think this board is worth it, fuck off and find something worth fighting for.

>>54199791
If to characters aren't of comprable power, then they shouldn't be the same level, and your mechanics for level-definition are bad. If you have to adjust what a given level represents for different types of classes, so be it.

>>54199836
Back before 3rd edition levels were class-sensitive and didn't compare outside them. A level 15 rogue wasn't more powerful than a level 13 wizard - just more powerful than a level 13 rogue was. That's because in those times classes used to be distinctly separate and with their own roles and mechanics.

3rd edition making them all equal - or trying to - was just one symptom in the root disease of poor balancing decisions that only served to drive the game into a shitter from which it hasn't recovered to this day.

>>54199794
Back then, the quality was good because there was more shit to be mad about.

People shat on smut threads but at the same time, we also had people creating OC both to piss off the anti-smutfags and to gain an audience.

People shat on quest threads but at the same time, we also had some decent writefags making decent threads, as well as drawfags coming up with OC to set them apart from quests that were mostly text only.

Hell, even troll threads that got rerailed into decent discussion only happened because people wanted to piss off the troll who wanted flame wars and shit

With all those things gone, bait's the only thing left that people want to discuss. It has nothing to do with fighting for a cause, it has more to do with the fact that there's nothing out there to talk about anymore because faggots drove away the competition.

We basically already won and now we have no idea what to do with ourselves anymore.

>mfw this retard has reposted the exact same bait after one day and it has over 100 replies

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>>54199867
>Back before 3rd edition levels were class-sensitive and didn't compare outside them. A level 15 rogue wasn't more powerful than a level 13 wizard
I in-fact remember, I was there, however you can take out the word "levels" and replace it with the words "XP total" and the argument is roughly the same. Hell, as I recall, 2e did an infinitely better job of making this true than 3e ever did, because at around the same time the wizard started becoming a walking army, the fighter became the lord of a literal army, and the rogue the leader of a powerful gang etc..

That was actually one of the things that wizards did very wrong when absorbing TSR and moving to 3e: replacing XP-total balance with level-balance, and then forgetting to balance the levels of different classes with the same care that 2e balanced the XP-totals of different classes.

>>54199868
If you are the last drawfag on the board, then try drawing some good shit for us yourself. Or maybe write something, if that's more up your alley. Tell us of your last game session. Promote a more obscure system that you actually like and try to get people together for a game. Could even try to homebrew a new one.

There are still great many things to do on /tg/ that don't involve quests or porn.

>>54199911
>mfw this retard is going to repost the exact same bait tomorrow and get over 100 replies again.

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>>54199947
As I said, it was all just a single symptom of a much bigger cause.

They changed everything in 2e: they standardized things, made them "make sense". They made the exp total the same for everyone. They replaced the old saving throws with the modern fortitude-reflex-will system. They ditched the ability score requirements. They made all races equal.

They did all these things without ever wondering why they were there in the first place.

And, naturally, the only thing that could result of that was a gigantic mess.

>>54199952
If I was a drawfag, people would shit on me for not drawing fast enough. If I was a writefag, people would shit on me for posting "fanfiction" on the board. If I talked about my last session, people would claim that it didn't happen. If I tried promoting any system, let alone an obscure one, I'd be accused of being a shill. Finally, if I posted homebrew, people would call it shit even though they never read it or would bitch about the font.

There are no heroes left in man.

>>54199978
>They changed everything in 2e: they standardized things, made them "make sense". They made the exp total the same for everyone. They replaced the old saving throws with the modern fortitude-reflex-will system. They ditched the ability score requirements. They made all races equal.
>They did all these things without ever wondering why they were there in the first place.
it's more like 2e was a gigantic mess of unbalanced mechanics that in aggregate wound up being balanced, then wizards came along and balanced each component without taking the time to balance the aggregate as well. The idea was sound, but they were much more concerned with their OGL becoming ubiquitous than with making a good system.

However, that is not to say that you can't have a system where both the components and the aggregate are balanced. It can be and has been done.

>>54199989
>99989
Your near-quints prove you supremely wrong.

The numbers have spoken. Go out there and do some good. Don't care for the few trolls.

>>54196534
so this is what it's like to watch a 25 yearold neckbeard have an ischemic infarction

>>54200005
>00005
Your near quints proves you wrong as well apparently.

>>54200022
>200022
I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO THINK ANYMORE!

>>54200027
Apparently I was right all along. Set up a lawn chair and let's watch the dumpster fire together senpai.

>>54195821
can mods just make this a sticky? Just one thread spanning thousands of shitposts. Would be the best way to contain this bullshit. He didn't even change the OP image for Christ's sake

>>54201298
You can go on about watching /tg/ burn but you won't need to keep bumping your own shit threads for it.

Fuck off, dog.

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>>54195821
>the guy who can make reality his bitch
Absolutely any kind of power is only as good as its availability and what you can do with it. Thread over.

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>>54202142
>Thread over.

>>54198421
The Manhattan Project had a hundred thousand people working on it for three years, and that's ignoring the countless others who laid the foundations for it throughout human history.

INT may be more valuable on a societal level, but STR is easily more valuable for an individual.

>>54199911
>>54199954
Every. Single. Day.

Until martialcucks get the message.

>>54202779
>INT may be more valuable on a societal level, but STR is easily more valuable for an individual.
With the rate that technology is evolving, STR loses its purpose each and every day.

>>54203022
And with the rate at which science moves past the point where individual discoveries matter, INT is doing the same thing.

Ultimately, CHA is and always will be the God-Stat.

>>54195821
https://desuarchive.org/tg/thread/54180890/#54180890
>Literally making the same thread two days in a row, down to a slightly differently cropped OP pic and a few words changed in the op
Anon, please go outside. I'm being serious here, you need to step away from all this for a little bit, it's bad for your health.

>>54203092
There is a correlation between intelligence and charisma though.

>>54203094
>He should go outside
>Not the morons who keep bumping his thread each and every day without fail.
Okay senpai.

>>54203022
In any situation where you're not in civilized society or are attempting to achieve something with relatively little equipment available, STR is still valuable, and always will be. Futurists, the world's smartest imbeciles.

You try to make statements that apply to everything while failing to realize that everything is vastly more nuanced than you imagine. You can wank to technology all day long, but there are plenty of roles that it will probably never be able to fill.

>>54203145
Oh don't get me wrong, they could use some time away from the computer as well, I just find it more pressing to address whoever keeps wanting to make these threads

>>54203159
>being able to punch people hard is the be all end all
>hurr futurists

Yeah, I can see the caveman mentality never died out

>>54203130
there's a correlation between fitness and intelligence

it's all, like, connected man

>>54203173
You're basically putting the carriage before the horse mate. If people didn't give OP (you)'s then there wouldn't be a thread in the first place.

>>54203159
STR is the last resort that people use when all other options have failed and the reason why it is like that is because most people would rather shoot a dude to quickly and easily dispatch them rather than get in close and risk getting harmed themselves.

Do you ever wonder why in every conflict, the side that employs the dirtiest methods always end up winning?

And when technology improves, STR loses its niche because there's nothing that human strength can accomplish that machinery can achieve, usually with better results in the long run as models become more and more efficient.

>>54203189
Even if that was true, which one would you rather have in a leader?

A dude who knows how to lift or a dude who knows how to run a country?

>>54196756
>Martials will always be weaker than casters since they're all muscle. The only thing that martials can accomplish are feats of great physical prowess.

Oh so you're a shitty nerd with envy for those "big dumb jocks" who bullied you, got it.

Martians can absolutely accomplish more than physical feats. They can inspire armies and terrify foes. They can rally hirelings to their cause and they can wield a magical sword that controls blizzards.
Or is talking to people instead of hitting them with a sword magic?

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>>54203130
>>54203189
>correlation between fitness, intelligence, and charisma
>have none of these things

I guess you're right

>>54203263
The guy who knows how to lift. People who think they know how to run a country are usually the worst at doing so.

>>54203375
>They can inspire armies and terrify foes.
>They can rally hirelings to their cause
Not without CHA
>they can wield a magical sword that controls blizzards.
Neat, but damage was never an issue for martials, their absolutely shitty lack of versatility is what killed them because they can only afford to be good at hitting people.
>Or is talking to people instead of hitting them with a sword magic?
Are you having a stroke senpai?

>>54196756

>Martials will always be weaker than casters since they're all muscle. The only thing that martials can accomplish are feats of great physical prowess. Casters can do so much more.

What about Martial classes that are about tactical prowess and brains, not just muscle. Like Warlords.

>>54198421

>The peak of human ingenuity allowed us to create the atomic bomb.

Mind you, you are comparing the work of a single man to that of many, many people and resources.

>>54197301
Wow fucking kill yourself.

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>>54203424
>The guy who knows how to lift. People who think they know how to run a country are usually the worst at doing so.

>>54203440
Warlords aren't a thing except in 4e.

Even so, they are still a mundane physical class that doesn't offer the verstatility that spellcasters do.

>>54203458
One dude created dynamite on accident and that was used to shatter mountains.

Checkmate.

>>54203375
Dude you're talking about D&D on an anime based imageboard.

We're all nerds here.

You think playing a martial makes you less of a nerd or something?

Anyway, casters can do everything you mentioned and way more. Martials eternally BTFO.

>>54203440
Nobody's interested in your anime shit where you can magically scream at a wound until it closes shut.

Some of us like a degree of realism in our games, thank you.

>>54203516
Martialfags are basically the nerds who were too stupid to get into STEM, so they play big tough martials in some pathetic attempt at being the big dumb jocks who they secretly want to be.

It certainly explains why they adamantly cling to their shitty martial wet dreams even when mages are by far the best option for every situation.

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>>54203522
>realism
>in a high fantasy.

>>54203522
>where you can magically scream at a wound and it closes shut
>any different from wizards
One day I'll get to run my no-magic campaign. Someday.

>>54203228
If you want realism/semi-realism GURPS does it much better than what D&D tries to pass as realistic limits. Guns and ranged magic is better than swords most of the time. Thing is, if the guy with the sword got close to you - you die or lose both of your hands, or something else really nasty happens. Getting into close combat without being trained for that is death. No save you die.

>>54203544
>Martialfag
>Too stupid to know about internal consistency
This is why you don't dump INT kids
>>54203546
>One day I'll get to run my no-magic campaign.
Just run a T4/T5 campaign in PF you fucking moron. Exercise that 6 INT/WIS for once in your life.

>>54196192
>And Olórin... asked what Manwë would have of him. Manwë replied that he wished Olórin to go as the third messenger to Middle-earth... But Olórin replied that he was too weak for such a task, and that he feared Sauron.

>Dangerous? And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord ...

>I have spoken words of hope. But only of hope. Hope is not victory. War is upon us and all our friends, a war in which only the use of the Ring could give us surety of victory. It fills me with great sorrow and great fear: for much shall be destroyed and all may be lost. I am Gandalf, Gandalf the White, but Black is mightier still.'

>>54203571
>If you want realism/semi-realism GURPS does it much better than what D&D tries to pass as realistic limits.
Too bad nobody plays GURPS.

>>54203426
>their absolutely shitty lack of versatility is what killed them because they can only afford to be good at hitting people.
See, this is the problem with D&D. You've got one set of classes who specialize narrowly in things like "hitting someone with a sword," "hitting someone with their fists," and "hitting someone with a sword while screaming." Then you've got another set of classes who specialize in what can best be summed up as "literally fucking anything," "literally fucking anything with some glitter dusted on," and "literally fucking anything with some dirt dusted on."

So many of these problems could be solved by killing the sacred cows which are the magic-using classes, and making a bunch of specialists like the Beguiler, Necromancer, and Warcaster.

>>54203544
I actually would like for these people crying about "unrealism" to play GURPS with fighters rocking cosmic attacks.

>>54203609
Personally I just see fighters also being supernatural after a certain point in strength.

>>54203603
Or you can change fighter to warrior and drop the shitty niche of "hitting things" changing it to "war". So that it now encompasses all the things needed to win - deception, reconnaissance, planning, logistics, training, rallying troops and somewhere in the end, yes, punching the other guy in the face.

>>54203603
4e has proven that nobody gives a fuck about what martialfags they have to say because they're decidedly NO FUN ALLOWED fucktards who would rather everyone be equally useless than everyone be equally good.

Casterfags don't give a shit about good martials and never have, it's always martialfags who scream the loudest whenever D&D actually gives them the tools to carve out their own niche until the devs scale it back down so they're back to being auto-attacking fucktards again.

>>54203629

I think part of the issue is that people seem unable to separate 'Supernatural' from 'Magic'. Which is weird when D&D is very concrete on what various magics are. Wizards use the Weave (Or the Shadow Weave) for example and has stuff like Trolls, which can just naturally regenerate several times their own body weight over the course of day without magic.

Anima does a good job of separating the two, where you can be supernatural without being magical.

>>54203543
Whatever helps you not cry yourself to sleep at night.

>>54203672
Somehow every time I played it's the caster players who were crying corcodile tears when DM was trying to introduce ToB.

>>54203705
see >>54203694

>>54203575
>In PF
You are the dumbest motherfucker in this thread full to the brim with dumb motherfuckers.
You want to know why I hate magic? Because it doesn't represent INT-based work at all. With a high int, you spend your entire goddamned life working on one fucking mathematical proof or program, or write reports for people who don't read them and programs for people you'll never meet.
D&D wizards? All that's in the past, so players get the power without the effort.
You want to RP a wizard? Sure. Let's painstakingly spend hours reviewing notes and consulting peers for work that could vanish in a fire or because one jerk ass decided to pull a knife on you in an alleyway. And there are no fireballs or instantly charming maidens or shielding magic, at least not unless you're in the military, and the general (read: martial) tells you when to fire. And the government has people as good as you or better with a finger on the pulse who will kill you if they think you pose a threat, so no getting a god complex, either.
I don't have this problem with martials, because they're already screwed six ways from Sunday and rely on their equipment in your stupid Will Save Simulator games.
Eat shit, and take your Pathfinder with you.
This entire thread is bait. Why the mods leave this up and not other threads is beyond me.

>>54203668
I mean, both are really necessary to some degree. "Hitting things" is far too narrow of a niche, and "all creation" is far too broad of a niche. But I'd like to see more warlord-style fighters, like they had back in 2E.

>>54203672
In my experience, it's always casterfags who scream whenever the martialfags get a shiny new toy. Hence why this thread began with yet another stupid GiantITP paraphrase, and why 90% of the assholes here are acting like they're supergeniuses because they know how to google character optimization.

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>>54203760

>>54196340
The archetypal wizard is Väinämöinen.

Check out his sweet magical repertoire: he plays a strong jawbone. He cons a lot of people. He may or may not know a sleeping charm.

Pretty fuckin' powerful.

>>54203760
It's nominally /tg/-related shitflinging, which makes it better than the typical /pol/-related shitflinging which is infesting the board.

>>54203774
I mean, if you're too stupid to know how to make a martial-only campaign, forgive me if I feel as though I'm allowed to laugh at your stupidity.

>>54203830
Thanks for proving my point.

>>54203804
So the archetypal wizard is a bard?

Fucking Bardception.

>>54203690
Technically the weave is just a way to access magic in faerun specifically since magic still worked even without it.
I guess I think of it as like a buffer?

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It seems the observations from yesterday are right. Guess it must be something about the board that causes really obvious bait threads to not only get replies, but get them consistently.

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>>54195821

>>54203872
I'm bored, and this is fun.

Christ, you act like we don't know this is bait or something.

>>54203885
That doesn't really make it not shitposting. And I doubt every person in the thread feels the same, given how into it some people seem to be getting

>>54203896
Newsflash, all the people screaming and calling each other names are probably typing with neutral expressions on their faces, at most feeling mild annoyance. Nobody actually takes this shit seriously.

>>54203925
I don't get annoyed at bait threads being full of bait, but when a legitimate thread gets shat on it's really fucking annoying.

>>54203925
Man, I started participating in threads like this maybe ten years ago. At the very least. It's like a play on stage.

>>54203943
Your "legitimate" thread was probably boring as fuck and you're just mad that people would rather bite onto obvious bait than discuss your SUPER KEWL obscure RPG like a /mu/tant who just go back from listening to [insert band that you've never heard about, it's pretty underground here].

>>54203925
I'm mainly here because there's nothing else worth talking about in the catalog and I don't feel like making a new one just to watch it get 15 posts before falling off the face of the earth.

>>54203966
This is what trolls actually believe.

>>54203978
I'm just here because I want to be mad.

>>54203987
The proof is in the pudding faggot.

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>>54203731
You're funny. But in that "people laugh because they'd feel guilty calling you retarded" kinda way.

>>54204377
I don't get it, what's the deal with the guys on the left?

>>54195870
They could be people with secret knowledge of gods and spirits that lets them call on them for favour, which is a pretty common concept in fantasy.

D&D's wizards with their long bags of tricks are something of an isolate.

>>54197195
King Solomon used a ring inscribed with the name of god, given to him by angels, to bind demons to his service.

He fucked it all up when he fell to witch pussy.

>>54204385
They play Anima. A game where Martials stay relevant.

Where can I read more about Solomon? I've been very interested in the figure since reading Ecclesiastes, but I don't remember any of this stuff from the Bible aside from him being wise and bringing the Jews back to polytheism towards the end of his reign.

>>54195821
>>he thinks the guys with the pointy stick should be as powerful as the guy who can make reality his bitch
Yeah, fuck the wand users.

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Remind that this guy can punch through reality and your wizards stupid shields.

>>54203424
The question said "the guys who KNOWS how to run a country" not "the guy who THINKS he can run a country" ya dummy.

>>54195821
Many casters simply don't have the resolve to snuff an unyielding martial's rejection of their reality.

>>54204572
Expectation
>Remind that this guy can punch through reality and your wizards stupid shields.
Reality
>Flurry of Blows
>Miss
>Miss
>Fumble

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>>54204450
Exactly.

>>54196756
You severely underestimate most martial's strength of mind.

What do you think happens to those who face such extreme adversity day after day? Brought to and from the brink of death and never stepping back an inch?
Their determination strength of will is something to be admired and feared because it is something way beyond what most spellcasters can comprehend

>>54196308

>The system literally made to make something like Final Fantasy or saint seiya is better to simulate a low-magic fantasy setting.

is this bait?

>>54204778
You just need 3-4 feats to model it in D&D 3.5. Or to be a ToB class.

>>54196907
>Istari/Maiar
Its functionally the same thing as an angel.

>>54204797
I can believe it, better is a relative term after all

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>>54195821
>Trying to start an argument over bullshit.

Listen mate I fucked your sister while you were at college and there ain't jack shit you can do about that, If you really want to do a dick measuring contest I'm more than certain she'd be happy to oblige.

>>54205379
>If you really want to do a dick measuring contest I'm more than certain she'd be happy to oblige.
His sister??

>>54205379
>Martials are so insecure that they can only talk about their sexual exploits
Nobody gives a fuck man, only closeted faggots feel the need to talk about how straight they are.

>hurr durr I do magic
Stupid wizurd, you weak cant lift big sword

>>54205457
Oh ya she's a sluuuut.

>>54205460
Nigga I don't talk about that shit much but man every fuckin' day with this guy it's "I could destroy you with but a thought!" or "I can rain down fire from the sky and what do you have? A sword?" I can only assume he's still got a grudge against me for that shit.

>>54205583
If you don't talk about it all the time then why even bring it up at all? You read like someone who is mad that they were too poor and stupid to get into college legitimately while listlessly reminiscing on how life could've been if it wasn't for your "bum knee."

Did you even go to college?

>>54205662
Because he wasn't this much of an asshole when he got back. It was only after a few days that he started trying to pull the dick measuring contest shit.

As for college I just figured joining the army would pay better, the family is going alright with the cash I send home so I guess I was right.

>>54205731
>Because he wasn't this much of an asshole when he got back. It was only after a few days that he started trying to pull the dick measuring contest shit.
So your immediate thought was "man, I should fuck his sister?" Man, you're a real piece of work, y'know that? You're lucky he has bigger shit to worry about than getting even with your ass.

>>54205775
>"while you were at college"

Can you not read?

>>54205805
Doesn't matter nigga, the point is that you fucked a dude's sister behind his back. You're the bad guy in this situation, not the caster.

>>54205922
>Passing up free pussy
What're you gay?

>>54205922
Guys don't have claims on their sisters which need to be respected, and it's kinda creepy that you think they do.

>>54206067
>>54206082
>Fucking your best friend's sister just because you were thirsty.
I thought you fags were supposed to be honorable.

>>54195821
dude, they're like, really good with that pointy stick

>>54205922
You make it sound like I fuck his wife, not that he has one, Katlina's a big girl she can make her own decisions.

>>54196013
the very nature of magic is reality warping, a cantrip is reality warping

>>54206139
Please, don't pretend that you wouldn't try to make a pass at your friend's wife if given the opportunity.

>>54206101
That shits for Pally-Wallies and Crusaders.

>>54206152
Not if magic is a part of reality. It may not obey physics, but it obeys its own rules.

>>54206184
good point. I guess it depends on the setting

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>He Thinks

>>54206162
1) No.

2) No.

3) What the hell is wrong with you?

>>54206162
Not that guy but...

Actually no, I wouldn't.
That's fucked up

>>54206170
Just as well, since you lack respect and honor, I suppose it'll be okay for me to forgo my own for a while.

Don't bother preparing for anything, by the time you realize what's happening, it'll already be too late.

>>54206200
>>54206208
You fuck with a man's family with no regard for their feelings, yet you claim that you wouldn't stoop as far as to take a man's wife from his arms just to suit your own carnal pleasures?

Forgive me if I'm a little hesitant to believe you. Just as well, the ball's already in motion.

>>54203228
Right, that's why the best modern military units are filled with people that are swole as fuck. Only a pathetic weakling thinks strength isn't important.

Older DnD required more EXP for wizards to level up compared to fighters or rogues.

At the end of the day Gary Gygax hated you if you played a wizard or a fighter.

>>54206319
The best military units sit in an air-conditioned room as they pilot drones to bomb insurgents.

>>54206226
>>54206249
Oh shit, better call the AOL police.

>>54206249
What on earth are you talking about?

>>54206372
If pretending that makes you feel better, civvie.

>>54206387
>The ability to take out hostiles without risking lives is inferior to my ability to do a shitload of push-ups within an arbitrary amount of time.
You ever wonder why most of your buddies never finished High School?

>>54206198
Don't fucking get Descartes with me you fag

>>54197195
>Cuts babies in half and laughs about it.
Solomon never intended to cut that child in half. It was a ruse to discern the real mother, the real mother would want the child to LIVE regardless of it was in her company or not. It was all part of his plan.

>>54203022
>Things twigs say
I bet you can't wait for cybernetic limbs to be a reality so you can finally lift a gallon of milk without trembling.

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>>54206592

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>>54206371
>Older DnD required more EXP for wizards to level up compared to fighters or rogues.

Eh sorta.

This chart shows the level of each class relative to a fighter, given the same XP. Ignoring the demihuman classes, the difference isn't huge and eventually levels out. At most, a magic-user will be 1.5 levels behind the fighter and the cleric will be 1 level ahead. Everyone hits level 16 at the same time. The overall effect is not dramatic except for non-humans.

There is literally nothing wrong with F.A.T.A.L. it's a masterpiece

>>54195821
No, I think the wizard shouldn't be able to make reality his bitch in the first place.

>>54206639
b-but muh old dnd solves all problems....

>>54207035
Who the fuck says that?
Old DnD is jank as fuck. It doesn't even consider balance as a thing

>>54207157
also having like 3 sets a rules for things like fall damage, gems, magic treasure, ect... i played with a guy who used EVERY book in his games. when we pointed out conflicting rules he always went with the more lethal one.

>>54207157
>Old DnD is jank as fuck. It doesn't even consider balance as a thing
this is true but it kind of worked out anyway, sort of. Class balance wasn't as horrific as people stereotype it to be until 3.5. fighters were always a bit boring to play compared to casters (yeah yeah I know, "describe your attacks." I'm talking actual mechanical benefits). Obviously math kind of goes out the window when you're talking about magic, it doesn't matter if the fighter gets a +1 attack bonus or a +20 attack bonus, when the wizard can turn invisible and fly and summon monsters and etc etc etc

but at least in AD&D, the math for fighters scaled in a way that at least kept them competent at higher levels. They got the best saving throws, the best extra attacks, and monster defenses happened to be scaled against their damage in a way they were able to shred things even at higher levels. Sure it was potentially a little boring compared to casters who could do anything and everything while fighters could only do one job, but at least they could do their one job well.

>>54206639
Erm ACKHTUALLY the Thief leveled up a lot quicker, since exp was based 1:1 on gold pieces and I always stole all the gold before my party got there. That's before my friends stopped inviting me to D&D night for some reason

>>54207524
they phased that out in 2e

>>54207584
the chart's for B/X

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>>54207157
>Old DnD is jank as fuck. It doesn't even consider balance as a thing

that's another meme

janky, sure, but it was certainly a thing

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Tell me /tg/

Why shouldn't casters be stronger than martials?

>>54208731

Because it's a team-based game, so everyone should be able to have the spotlight and contribute to a reasonable degree to the group.

>>54208731
Not fun

>>54208731
Because why have martials then?

>>54196534
Behold the master race, in all its glory.

>>54208820
So people can play martials?

>>54198421
Good point, you convinced me its a good idea to make play styles in games notably weaker then others

The only reason that high level magic wizards make settings boring is because the high level magics they cast rarely truly affect the setting or influence the setting.

Everyone had the ability, through TRAINING, to rain down molten rock from the sky the whole planet would be in magic fallout turmoil. A fantastic post-Apocalypse where only the strongest wizards would thrive.

But no, they all get to keep their unicorns and forests and knights and castles when that whole human industrious dynamic would fall into obscurity because you can make a fucking lava dragon if you chug enough potions.

Powerful magic is boring if the setting isn't just as chaotic. Its why Planescape is so cool, because high level magic is no fucking problem, and the universe surrounding that is just as curazy.

>>54208731
Only after you tell me why casters should be stronger then martials

considering martials are stronger in real life it would be realistic for games to do the same

EXP is only awarded to the player who deals the killing blow and it it not shared between the party. As well as the EXP only goes to the player who disables a trap or solves a puzzle.

Everyone starts at level one, who is stronger now?

>>54209330
Ranged characters.

This is why good DMs use the story to give EXP, so that the campaign isn't super video gamey.

>>54209233
>Its why Planescape is so cool, because high level magic is no fucking problem, and the universe surrounding that is just as curazy.

True. The campaign book says wizards from the Prime Material are often disappointed visiting Sigil for the first time because people don't treat them with much respect like the peasants back home, nobody is impressed seeing a little magic when you have angels walking down the street.

>>54209290
Except magic doesn't exist in real life. If it did, Aleister Crowley would be blowing up dozens of army vets.

It's also more thematically appropriate for users of magic to be a bit (or a lot) 'meatier' than martials. There no reason to assume a fist is going to outmatch a heart stopping arc of lightning.

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>>54209420
>Except magic doesn't exist in real life. If it did, Aleister Crowley would be blowing up dozens of army vets.

says who? maybe he'd just be reading tea leaves and making good luck charms. that's what most "real" magic is like. even if it worked there's nothing saying it would be some anime shit.

>>54196734
The way that you do that is you have a system and setting that has that built into it rather than one that explicitly seems to disallow it.

>>54209472
There are people who legitimately believed they could manipulate mass swathes of weather and precisely determine where lightning struck. Or spontaneous combustion.
Was it legit? Fuck no. But that is another facet of what people actually believed what magic could accomplish.

If magic existed, I highly doubt physical prowess would be of any significance in the face of it.

>>54209472
I believe Crowley at one point bragged about smashing a glass with his mind, or influencing a person just by willing it.

>martial lunges at Crowley
>too late, he tripped and his blood vessels exploded

>>54209420
If you're putting magic in the game, you're officially abandoning realism.
If you're doing that, it makes no sense to keep realism in certain places and not in other places, especially when its detrimental to play.
So the logical choice is to make the other classes unrealistic to match, such as letting martial characters accomplish impossible feats.
Or, alternatively, since magic has absolutely no rules at all, and can be completely different in all regards from one setting to another as the writers are the ones who get to dictate what the rules are, just make it so that magic can't do things that render people with swords irrelevant.

>>54209525

What a petty excuse to make, though you're right in a sense. Applying unrealism to something inherently realistic is somewhat of a copout, however.

Magic is magic.

>>54209420
>Except magic doesn't exist in real life. If it did, Aleister Crowley would be blowing up dozens of army vets.
you have no fucking clue what kind of "magic" Crowley practiced. take your ignorant opinion and shove it up your ass
>There no reason to assume a fist is going to outmatch a heart stopping arc of lightning.
reminder that Hercules was strong enough to redirect a river by pulling it. Gilgamesh was able to slay a bull so supernaturally powerful its stomp can cause earthquakes. The bull was sent to attack him after he rejected a goddess who had fallen in love with him.

>>54209420
>It's also more thematically appropriate for users of magic to be a bit (or a lot) 'meatier' than martials. There no reason to assume a fist is going to outmatch a heart stopping arc of lightning.
Not really. 'Magic' in and of itself has no thematics at all. I could say magic is the ability to warp any aspect of reality with your mind, I could say magic slowly drains a humans very soul exponentially decreasing their lifespan with use, or I could say magic is only capable of producing minor results in even the most trained hands. All are equally thematic to each other, there is no official version of magic from anywhere.

>>54209563
>you have no fucking clue what kind of "magic" Crowley practiced.
Do you?

>inb4 "I STUDIED TEH OCCULT"

>>54209568
Nice scape goat argument, martial fag

There's something appealing about an average man welding enough power to be able to rival the children of God's

>>54209563
I would really rather you find examples of physical prowess that weren't influenced by divine magics.

Otherwise the caster fags will just point it out and laugh.

>>54209420
So you are willing to make a few players useless for the sake of theme

if you want stronger wizards, either have it so the wizards hanging out with the martials are less experienced putting them on similar footing with the martials, or have it so that wizards are npc characters only
that way members of the party dont get screwed over for not playing a caster

>>54209518
He did all that with dru....

Best setting idea ever, what if DRUGS caused MAGIC.

>>54209559
>Applying unrealism to something inherently realistic is somewhat of a copout, however.
Nothing about DnD is inherently realistic. With the inclusion of something like the wizard, the official canon of the setting is that people can conjure fire from nothing by thinking about it in the right ways. It's safe to assume all bets are off in a setting like that, theres no reason to believe any real world assumptions are true. Any that remain true are that way purely because whoever wrote the setting wanted them to be, and for no greater reason.

>>54209563
>Hercules
>Gilgamesh
>half gods

:^)

>>54209592
Nice literally nothing response faggot

>>54209559
Magic is whatever the author wants it to be. That can range from being able to smite anyone anywhere with lightning, to being able to shock someone with as much voltage as a taser a couple times per day.

If you're going to insist that martials be bound to reality, and you want a fun, team-based dungeon crawl, then you should design magic in your setting to account for that, and have the supernatural things they can do still be in line with that level of power.

>>54209629
>D&D
>the setting with unrealistic martial capabilities
>still flat out brags about how much more powerful wizards are in comparison

Yeaahhhh...
It's kind of a thing in D&D that the strongest of wizards are stronger than the strongest of martials

But you already knew this, of course.

>>54209650
>Magic is whatever the author wants it to be

So it has far more leeway than physical might? Who knew. And people wonder why wizards are stronger. Or weaker.

the amount of butthurt martials in this thread is absolutely amazing

>>54209654
I have no idea what you're trying to say. I'm not bragging about wizards being better, I'm saying the setting is bad because it conforms to reality in certain situations and doesn't in others for no particular reason

>>54209678
Nobody wonders that, because it's not a mystery. The only reason there's any sort of argument at all is because apparently some people can't wrap their head around the idea of a spellcaster in a setting not having all the abilities of a level 20 D&D 3.5 Wizard.

Making a game where spellcasters are stronger and then laughing at martials for being weak is just masturbatory and doesn't actually prove anything, because it's all arbitrary anyway.

So the two should be equal, at least at some point, and then if someone wants god wizards they can just give casters double experience or cap martials at level 2 or whatever gets them hard.

>>54209725
>Replying to that
Anon with how hard he completely missed the point it should have been obvious thats bait.

>>54209753
>the truth
>must be bait

yup

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9KB, 247x350px

>>54196084
>Is he hiding his true power level or what?
literally this: >>54196192
except Gandalf could never take Sauron on 1v1.
see: >>54203577

>>54209577
> In his book Magick in Theory and Practice, Crowley defined Magick as "the Science and Art of causing change to occur in conformity with Will".[237] He also told his disciple Karl Germer that "Magick is getting into communication with individuals who exist on a higher plane than ours. Mysticism is the raising of oneself to their level
took 30 seconds to find on his wikipedia page
>>54209615
>>54209632
I fail to see why martials should be disqualified from having divine/supernatural influence. They explicitly don't wield magic even if they are powered by it. Or if you want to run the argument the other way "martials" should be as powerful as casters because they are based on supernaturally powered heroes and the lack of super/extranatural powers is a failure of design

>>54209843
Gandalf fearing Sauron was kind of the point of his character.

Yet Tolkien did mention that Gandalf was the only one in Middle Earth capable of combating him. I might as well try to find the citation for you.

>>54209858
Are you retarded or what?

>>54209863
Peter Jackson didn't do very well in showcasing Gandalf in all his might.

He also had a hard on for Galadriel for some fucking reason. She was far more powerful in the films than the novels.

>>54196971
>using Bill Nye for bad science
kekek

Personally I'd say that one of the main reasons 3x d&d wizards get so powerful is because the GM is generally completely uninterested in checking the material components needed for the spells. The guys playing the wizards always has selective dementia when it comes to spending thousands and thousands of gold to cast powerful spells, or having to find a perfect pearl/diamond/macguffin to channel a spell etc.
Money that would have been spent on powerful equipment by a martial character.

>>54209678
authors literally control the entire world, there is no "leeway" its all based on what the author says.

I am now an author and in my setting magic is measured by your martial ability in combat. And everyone's punches tear through reality, but I am explicitly saying that this source is not magical and is biological. Also if you say "I am a wizard" in my setting then you start on fire for an inexplicable reason.

>>54210171
>there is no "leeway" its all based on what the author says.

That's exactly what leeway is, buddy. It all depends on too many a variable.

>>54210202
So why say that magic has MORE or LESS leeway than physical might?

>>54209921
>She was far more powerful in the films than the novels
idk. she was supposed to be pretty powerful in the books.

>>54210219
...because it's magic?

>>54210253
She tore town Dol Goldur, yet she was never supposed to be powerful enough to fight Sauron. It was explicitly stated that if Sauron ever reached Lothlorien, she would be finished.

She was their lifeline, but she couldn't confront the real thing.

>>54210279

>...because it's magic?

I would kindly ask that you read the post in which you are replying to and understand the context of the statements without picking and choosing what you want to reply to.

>>54195821
I can tell you weren't the popular one in high school were you?

>>54210219
>>54210298

Are you honestly expecting an answer other than '"it's magic" here..?
Are you -that- biased and obsessive in your quest to prove that martial prowess has a significant edge over magic in general fiction?

Magic is just that. Magic.
It has more freedom to work on.

>>54210336
I will again ask you to read the post in which you are referring to and take time to formulate a proper response.

>>54210368

What a pretentious comment. I'm not even the guy. Nor can you even conceive of how this current discussion is progressing, clearly.

>>54210419
Just ignore him.

>>54210419
It is progressing in such a way that is losing the point of the original conversation AND trying to further their own "wizard/martial" agenda.

>>54210449
I believe the current topic is the idea that magic somehow doesn't have greater freedom than physical whatnot, which is quite frankly, a ludicrous notion.

>>54195821
I think there shouldn't be separation between those who use magic and those who are trained to protect and kill since magic is good for both.

>>54210483
no, the argument has always been "why are martials so much shittier than casters?" to which a cadre of unimaginative retards claim that "hurr magic is better than martial always and forever, martials are shit by design"

You can argue about magic in a meta/setting/thematic sense and its use compared to nonmagical means but at that point your just willfully misinterpreting the argument to prevent the argument from ending

>>54206830
Why did everyone ignore my clearly much superior bait.

>>54210635
Because its true.

>>54210635
we don't want to get permabanned

>>54210483
Not exactly, atleast to my understanding it is about the creative ability of authors on the power or lack of power of magic, which is near limitless. The same could also be said about physical might. Basically I was attempting to state that the original poster's sentiment was not solely limited to magic because writing is free from the limitations of reality.

>go to bed
>wake up
>check /tg/
>martialcucks are still autistically screeching

Just accept your place as lesser beings. You're not completely useless, just weaker than casters. That's fine. You're like Robin and casters are Batman.

>>54210777
That's not a very good argument on account of the mutability of fiction, and the creative differences regarding both magic and martial prowess.

I feel like martial fags watch too much anime to come up with the notion that martials should be on part with casters.

>>54210969
Simply stating that it isn't a valid to say it applies to one but not the other.

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>>54210867
>>54210987
Man we can't even have good bait threads anymore. It's all bottom of the barrel stuff.

>>54209632
>Merlin
>half-demon
:^)

>>54210987
I feel like caster fags watch too much anime to come up with the notion that casters should be on par with martials.

>>54211591
Agreed.

Casters should never be on par with martials.

Casters should be far more powerful.

>>54211564
A caster is a caster

:^)

>>54209420
So let me see if I understand the jist of what you're saying: Magic should be more powerful, because if magic existed it would be more powerful. And you don't see anything wrong with that approach?

>>54211627
And a martial is a martial. Everyone knows the demigod thing was just invented after the fact. Probably by BTFOed casterfags tired of getting showed up.

>>54211624
Nah. Casters should be limited to things casters can do in real life. You know, summon rabbits, figure out your card, shit like that. Anything else is Naruto-tier shit.

>>54211694
There are no such things as casters in real life.

If there were they would be ruling the world.

I know martialcucks tend to have low INT scores but try to make an effort.

>>54211712
Unlikely. It's hard to rule the world by pulling coins out of kids' ears. It might seem like a good way to make money, but it's not even "conquer a nation" levels.

>>54211724
Have you read the spells in the PHB?

>b-but my homebrew system...

Nobody gives a fuck. We're talking about D&D.

>>54211676
A martial that apparently needs magic to even have a hope of competing with wizards.

:^)

>>54211745
Thanks for proving my point. D&D is just a blatant ripoff of Lodoss War and Slayers. Clearly you need to try something based on Western media.

>>54211724
>slight of hand magic
>actual eldritch sorcery

pick one

>>54211794
>actual
>eldritch sorcery
Pick one.

>>54211800
>discussing a 'what if' scenario if magic actually existed
>can't read above posts