Why does /tg/ hate kreia so much?

>>54189959
why do people keep making threads with spurious leading questions?

>>54189959
Because she's a crotchety bitch that yells at you no matter what you do and then acts superior about it.

>>54189976
Probably because they enjoy the torrent of sarcastic hypothetical questions

>>54189959
BECAUSE SHE STOLE MY FUCKING SHIRT AND WON'T GIVE IT BACK FUCK YOU BITCH I SAID YOU COULD BORROW IT NOT KEEP IT!

>>54189959
Who? Is this some vidya character?

>>54189959
Because her entire philosophy is about how stupid The Force is.

She's a Star Wars character made for people who think Star Wars is stupid.

The percentage of people who think Star Wars is dumb, but at the same time know who Kreia is is tiny so naturally there will be more fans that hate her than non fans that like her.

>>54191332
Did Chris Avellone explicitly say that he dislikes Star Wars and The Force? That would explain why Kreia behaves like she does: because she's his mouthpiece.

>>54189959
Because she's trying to push a "This is a morally grey world and both sides are just as bad" when one side is Chaos-lite & backs space fascism and the other isn't.

>>54189959
Because casual KOTOR fags become enamored at everything she says and assumes that she has the One True way of looking at Star Wars while forgetting the most fundamental part of her character:

KREIA LIES.

>>54191401
I don't know if he did, but even if he did, as the one who came up with Kreia, he's also the one who came up with the fact that KREIA LIES.

She's the Sith Lord of Betrayal, for Chrissake. Everything she says should be taken with an entire East African empire's economy worth of salt, nevermind a grain.

She's wrong. Like, objectively - within the context of Star Wars - everything she says is wrong, a lie, not only to the Exile but also to herself.

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>>54191475
Three facts every vidya player should know:

1) Kreia lies
2) Don't open it
3) Always listen to Professor Oak

>>54189959
Because "Jedi are bad and evil" meme is shit. I blame the prequels for painting them as loveless, emotionless politicians.

>>54189959
loaded question tg doesent hate kreia in any great majority

>>54191401
>Did Chris Avellone explicitly say that he dislikes Star Wars
He said he loved the Star Wars franchise

>and The Force?
I believe he hates how EU Writers portrayed the force, he didn't hate the force in itself

>>54191475
>>54191500
Please itemize Kreia's lies for us, so we may understand.

>>54191800
If you've got a database of all her dialogue in the entire game, I'll be happy to link it back to you.

>>54191800
Kreia telling the player the Jedi council was wrong with their judgment.

Kreia insisting that the Jedi must confront and come to terms with their darkness and not shut it down as it will only be detrimental not only to them but to innocents. That teaching is of the Darkside and Sith

Kreia telling the Jedi Exile she loves him/her as a mother would love her child

The force is using them as pawns.
.
those are the ones I can think of right now

>>54191980
The second to last bit is actually true, I think. Kreia really did think the Exile was her second chance at a proper student, but she herself was so fucked up and contradictory that all she really managed to teach was "maybe get stronger by beating up other people"

and we know how well that went

>>54191980
Thanks! Drop more when you think of them.
Now, to address what you've listed: The council WAS wrong - they held back while mandaloreans murdered innocents and brought the galaxy to darkness - they had to fight the mandos, because mandos don't conquer, mandos fight! Fighting is their modus vivendi.
The darkside MUST be confronted and overcome: that was the whole point of ESB and RotJ. Hiding from darkness, like the council did, led to their undoing and the wars that nearly destroyed the republic. Only the Exile (with Kreia's guidance) averted galactic disaster on an unprecedented scale.
We cannot know if Kreia is lying about her love for the Exile. But, we generally do not bother to take the time to teach those whom we hate, so............
The Force DOES use them as pawns - the jedi EXPLICITLY teach themselves to 'follow the will of the Force'.......

>>54191800
Everything

>>54191401
>every character is a mouthpiece for the author
No. Fuck off.

>>54191800
It's quicker to itemize the things she tells the truth about.

>>54191423
And the other side is chaos-lite terrorists.

>>54189959
Because (omnicidal) nihilism is fucking stupid

>>54189959
Because their fifis got hurt, or they skipped through her dialog so they could go back to handmaiden tiddies.

>>54191060
I remember that stand up bit. It was a good bit.

>>54191060
It smells of an old lady now, sure you want it back?

>>54194758
My penis does

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>>54191500
4) Shoot at it until it dies.

Actually applies to a lot of things come to think of it.

>>54189959
I like Kreia. It's interesting to have a nihilistic character like her in a video game series that isn't just super edgy

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>>54189959
Because she's a poster child for fanwank sophistry with the intent to give deeper meaning where there is none.

>>54189959
SW purists get mad when their setting's holes get poked

>>54191970
kek

>>54192143
>But, we generally do not bother to take the time to teach those whom we hate,
Sith.

>>54189959
She's a lying salty cunt who's wrong about everything that I cannot rid myself off.

>>54192143
Like any good liar, Kreia does mix in the truth with her lies. And also, again, it doesn't help that in many cases she actually believes her lies.

>"Oh, you have promise. But wait until you have more years fall upon you, and you will see what a shell your heart will become."

Kreia assumes that anyone who gets to be her age is just as cold and manipulative as she is. She doesn't believe in genuine altruism, or else labels it as stupidity.

>"Yes, and what are they without the Force? Take the greatest Jedi Knight, strip away the Force, and what remains? They rely on it, depend on it, more than they know. Watch as one tries to hold a blaster, as they try to hold a lightsaber, and you will see nothing more than a woman – or a man. A child."

Kreia's describing herself. The Exile has survived for years without the Force by this point, and other Jedi in Star Wars history have done just fine without it as well. Indeed, most of the great Jedi teachers have focused on teaching their students to NOT become reliant on the Force.

>Does it matter? Of course it does, such titles allow you to break the galaxy into light and dark, categorize it. Perhaps I am neither, and I hold both as what they are, pieces of a whole. Know that I am your teacher, and that is enough."

It really isn't for most Exiles. Kreia also lets the Exile assume that she's no longer Sith, when in fact she is still very much Darth Traya.

>"You must understand. I did not wish the Jedi dead. Defeated... perhaps. I merely wished them to see that they and their teachings were wrong. That one could not truly understand the Force simply by adhering to the Jedi Code."

The problem is that Kreia's solution is just a variation on the Sith values, though she doesn't admit that to herself. And further, Kreia's understanding of the Force is fundamentally flawed as well - she's no more "right" than she believed the Jedi to be.

>>54195109
There's no point in trying to poke holes is Swiss cheese, because yeah man, moral gray areas and ambiguity in the Force sure fit in a setting where evil isn't a social construct of society but instead is a mystical one that throws you into a giant flaming "no zone" that gives you goofy demonic eyes, a shitty pallid skin condition and a predilection for wearing red and black every time you decide to stab a bitch for the wrong reasons.

>>54189959
/tg/ is full of moralists. Moralists have a black and white way of looking at the world, and of moral forces within it. Look at D&D with its alignment system. Things like that strongly engender that kind of attitude in this hobby. Now here's Kreia espousing a philosophy of moral greyness, so obviously it's going to get them upset and spitting fire at her.

>>54195339
whole lotta spooky going on in this post

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>>54195339
Star Wars is black and white. Part of that is Lucas distilling The Hero's Journey down to it simplest components leaving little room for nuance. Gripe about that if you must.

But it makes sense in-universe too: The Force is exactly the kind of phenomena that would function in black/white, right/wrong, good/evil.. Its an energy field covering all of existence from the galactic level down to the smallest life forms. Such an entity can't be filtered through Relativism because that is concept that only comes about when individual sentients try to analyse and justify their actions. The force cannot understand and does not care. Its an analogue of the Tao and similar eastern philosophical traditions after all. The Way is right, and all other things are disharmonious. All of nature knows proper path of The Way instinctively. Those that deny its simple truth and try to twist it or veer off the path, even for the best of intentions, none the less invite imbalance into everything they do. They cannot change The Way, but will only harm themselves in trying.

>>54189959
She is an incredibly stupid character, incredibly stupidly written.

>I will betray you, Exile.
>I am a betrayer. I will betray you before the end.
>I will do it, you know. I will betray you.
>I like to betray people. I will like betraying you.
>SHE FUCKING BETRAYS YOU.

We should have had the option to throw her out the airlock 20 minutes in.

>>54195501
People that only pay attention to Lucas' mindless declarations and ignore tons of the EU not simply because it was poor content on an individual basis but because it calls into question Lucas' morality are really irritating. Hell, the Family even showed up in Lucas' pet CGI series. As retarded as they are, their existence and mode of operation strongly support the idea of the force needing both the dark and the light, rather than the dark side being the unnatural one.

Also it ignores completely the contrast between Lucas' version of a good jedi order (soulless robots) with what Luke ends up making (a Jedi order that strongly rejects the whole innactive, unfeeling monk bullshit.)

>>54195535
>she tells you she's going to betray you
>betrays you

if anything it's the Exile whose stupidly written

>>54195544
Why can't I hold all this head canon and personal opinion

>da force needs a darkside

this is what darkside fags actually believe

>>54195501
Also, the thing about eastern spiritual dualism? Both concepts of opposing sides are considered necessary and natural, and often must be brought into harmony for harmony to exist.

>>54195560
The Family aint exactly 'head canon' or EU only anymore, from showing up in the clone wars series.

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>>54195544
Do we have to really acknowledge all the EU nonsense that has accumulated over the decades?

After a point it stops from expanding the universe and setting to being outright silly and stupid....and we already have both of those in the canon setting as it is.

>>54195501

I think you're misrepresenting the Tao. It wouldn't be that dark is disharmonious, it's that everything moves towards a equilibrium; not high and low, but left and right. Yin and Yang are separate parts of the same circle.

>>54191076
Voiced by captain Janeway herself.

>>54195578
All the family prove is that the galaxy needs a keeper of balance, which Anakin refused to become by embracing the Darkside. That is assuming you take Luke's realizations in the non-canon books as correct. The One's that appear in TCW are canon, but also erase themselves from the timeline after The Father commits Sudoku.

>>54193932
This
>>54195535
This
She is a shitty creator pet from developer, who hates setting he is working on. Fucktard Avellone done it againo in lonesome road, only Ulysses are WAY worse. Basically, cuck Avellone hates west coast fallout (but likes fallout 3 setting, nuff said about this moron) and want to nuke it out of canon, so he created super-duper mary sue snowflake, hyped it in 3 previous DLC (and base game, sort of) and finaly shoved this "character" down our throat. Lonesome road was a hot garbitch.

>>54195626
Not all of it. My point was that he's rejecting good EU shit too.

>>54195659
Oh, i fucking knew it. Shiiieeeeet.

>>54191475
Fucking this, ToR may have butcherd her as a nuanced villain by making her a generic lunatic but she wasn't this grand "secretly right about everything" person, she was a bitter woman looking to avoid blame for her own deeds and imagined a conspiracy by the force itself to be responsible

>>54195639
He seems like a westerner who learned that Taoism is dualistic and didn't realize that their dualism is founded on balance and not good over evil.

>>54195678
New Vegas is still pretty good anon.

>>54191980
>Kreia telling the Jedi Exile she loves him/her as a mother would love her child

She problably likes more the exile than a child of hers. (Specially if you belive handmaiden is her child). All the non-droid companions end with some big kind of atraction to the Exile considering the Force Bonds and all.

The other things it's more opinions than lies.

>>54195665
There's also the fact that the Son, as the embodiment of the darkside, is the one who causes the imbalance in the first place by killing his sister who embodies the lightside.

Darkside dindu nuffin is a good boy just murder sister try to go bad he turn his life around go to church every day

>>54195678
While I agree Avellone tends to hamfist a bit in his writing, I think you're overblowing how bad Ulysses was. Also most of the problems with all of NV writing can be traced to time, budget, cut content, etc. Like every Obsidian game. Except Tyranny which is 100% their fault

>>54195701
>>54195639
The fallacy is you're assuming that light side + darkside = yin + yang.

Lightside is YIN AND YANG, Darkside is rejection of this balance.

>>54195713
>>Kreia telling the Jedi Exile she loves him/her as a mother would love her child

Mothers can hate their children, as any anon with a shitty mom could tell you

>>54195723
The Son causing an imbalance is no different than the Jedi trying to eliminate their own emotions causing them to become unbalanced. That is to say, both Dark and Light side are capable of forcing themselves over the other.

>Light side is YIN AND YANG,
Yeah, no. There's not a single bit of dualism embodied in the Light side itself. You're really gonna have to show what you're basing that on here, Lucas.

>>54195748
Would it just be simpler to explain it as there are periods in which light or dark are waxing and waning in power and the balance comes from the constant pendulum like swings that take place in the setting?

>>54195707
Well, yep, my 2 favourite fallout gaems are NV and original. They both have flaws, bet rest of the series are way worse (especially BOS,3 and 4).
>>54195723
>Also most of the problems with all of NV writing can be traced to time, budget, cut content, etc.
Sure, if you talking about base game, but lonesome road, build up to in and hype around chriss mary sue was in dlc`s. What a disapointment. Also, fuck sawyer and his mary sue too (and felicia gay).

>>54195789
If that is your interpretation of balance, then sure. My only point is that the complete rejection of your human self or other forms of trying to completely embrace a side are imbalanced and lead to an inhuman mindset. Giving up on passion entirely is no way for a human to live. Whether that balance is caused by the waxing and waning of the dark and light side, or whether it can be embodied in one harmonious order like the ancient Je'dai, is up to your interpretation. One good thing about a massive mess like the EU is that you'll find evidence for both and other interpretations.

>>54190000

She doesn't want you trying to please her in exchange for a pat on the head, she wants you to distrust even her. I know this is hard for you, having been trained by college to be a good little parrot and get rewarded for repetition, not original thought.

>>54195748
The LIGHTSIDE is yin and yang
The JEDI ORDER is not
That is the problem.

Darkside is a corruption of balance
The Jedi Order was insufficient to maintain balance, because their view of it was flawed (jedi robots, as has been observed)

Anakin was meant to be the chosen one as he was intended to marry empathy and compassion to diligence, self control, and wisdom. Moreover he was meant to repair the damage to the fabric of the force done by the Sith during the great war.

As we see from many of the foibles of the Jedi Masters themselves such as Ploo-Kloon, passion and feelings aren't themselves a problem. Many of them hypocritically rationalize these things while espousing traditional Jedi wisdom (Kloon, Windu, etc). Even Yoda was, to an extent, ruled by his fear. Hence why Jinn was an outsider, he rejected the idea that the councils wisdom was absolute.

>inb4 muh grey jedi

That's not what i'm advocating, Grey Jedi are shit too. I'm saying the Sith Way, which rejects all responsibility and control for a purely individualistic outlook that builds it's power on unrestrained emotion is self destructive, while the OR Jedi order was largely flawed due to going into the opposite extreme. The Force is an entity of life, in order to represent the force Jedi must live.

>>54195831
>tips fedora

>>54195835
Why can't I hold all this head canon and personal opinion. Remind you of someone?

But for a serious answer, you're not citing anything for any of your points. I've seen those stances circulated widely as a fan interpretation, which is fine, but to come in and declare it as fact requires a little bit of support.

>>54195835
>>54195863
Also, I want to make this clear. I don't support the Sith Way. I think they're retards. They and the Jedi are both wrong, and the Sith are wrong in a worse way. What I mean by the dark side is not the Sith interpretation of the force, but the darker side of ourselves, which is reflected in the Force, and those human emotions that the old Jedi Order feared so much.

Even if in the canon movies the light side was meant to be some sort of balance, in KOTOR I it was not.

It is very clear because of the things that gives you light and darkside points.

KOTOR II followed the principles from KOTOR I in this aspect.

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>>54195835
It bothers me that Jolee Bindo is often held up as some kind of exemplar of the "grey Jedi" way of doing things, holding the Force in perfect balance or whatnot, when in KOTOR 1 you can open his character page and see that, yup, that's a blue background he's got to his character there. Not much of one, but he's definitely not walking some kind of middle road, he's pretty firmly "light" side.

Jolee was sick of being a Jedi, but he absolutely was still on the side of light.

>>54195173
>Kreia's describing herself. The Exile has survived for years without the Force by this point, and other Jedi in Star Wars history have done just fine without it as well. Indeed, most of the great Jedi teachers have focused on teaching their students to NOT become reliant on the Force.

Post-Kreia, and if the Exile DID rebuild the Jedi it would explain why it became a central tenet.

>>54195835
That would make sense as far as far as Taoism goes but the problem is in the fiction.

The jedi order is consistently represented as the epitome of the light side, when they really aren't.

There's also a bit of cognitive dissonance as far as language goes. The very existence of a "light side" and "dark side" is against Taoist descriptions of there not being that kind of duality.

>>54195898
If I had control over a Star Wars game, I'd have six possible endings, basically boiling down to: Jedi, Good, Unaligned, Evil, Sith, and Failure.

>>54195173
>Kreia's describing herself. The Exile has survived for years without the Force by this point, and other Jedi in Star Wars history have done just fine without it as well. Indeed, most of the great Jedi teachers have focused on teaching their students to NOT become reliant on the Force.

What are you talking about anon? The Jedi of her time were extremely reliant on the force, so-much-so that the Jedi exile was abhorrent to them because he was not with the force.

>>54195911
Except canonically the Exile didn't. She went out into the Uncharted Territories looking for Revan. Keeping that in mind I'm not actually sure how the Jedi Order was rebuilt - best guess is either some of the Force-Sensitives that the Exile trained rebuilt it; or else the Sith missed a bunch of Jedi besides the Masters that the Exile found (which is probably the more likely of the two - at the very least we know Bastila survived). Either that or maybe some Force-Sensitive managed to find a Jedi holocron full of Jedi teachings.

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>>54195977
>TOR

>>54193708

In Avellone's case, he's made a lot of characters that are explicitly mouthpieces for him. Ulysses was the worst about it.

>>54195944
The Exile was abhorrent to the Council because she (she's canonically female) was completely cut off from the Force, a "wound" in it. This had nothing to do with whether or not Jedi relied on it too much in their day-to-day lives, despite what Kreia otherwise tried to claim.

>>54195977
Had KotOR 3 not been sideline and inevitably discarded for the MMORPG. The Jedi Exile would have rebuilt the order from scratch with the companions she made. before leaving them and going to face a unknown Dark Lord of the Sith that Kreia warn

>>54195990
Hey, it's canon. You don't have to like it, but you do have to accept it.

>>54196034
It's Legends material now senpai. And in regards to Legends, there's so much contradictory shit going on you really have to construct your own lore from bits and pieces you accept, rather than taking everything as fact.

>>54196034
>Tor
>canon
Kek.

>>54195944
Not that Anon, but I think Kreia is a more extreme example of this.
She says to the Exile to have other abilities and not count only with the Force (basically, to have Skill points), but she almost only had abilities with the force. She disliked robots and didn't speak the utility droid leanguage, even if she had reason to like them because she thought that they were (more) disconnected from the Force.
She was also blind and used the Force to percieve the ambient.
She let her hand be cutted off.
And her fighting style is all about the use of the Force, her class is Jedi Consular, she let the Exile spare with Visas instead of with herself, and in the end she control lightsabers with the Force instead of with her body.

>>54191757
>I believe he hates how EU Writers portrayed the force

And yet he doesn't do any different, literally only the movies have portrayed the force in the way Lucas put it. There are only 2 sides of morality in the SW universe, very very good and very very bad, and anyone who tries to stay neutral like Lando is forced to pick a side through cirumstance. There is no "dark side" as an other side of the coin deal, there is only the Force, and a corruption of the Force the films call the dark side.

>>54196057
That was partially the point. Kreia hated that she had become reliant on the force as Darth Traya, and that she had basically become so crippled by the point she meets you that she cannot be anything but reliant on it. It's part of why she's so bitter.

>>54196077
>Listening to Lucas
Jarjar is key to all this.

>>54196052
It can be canon and have absolutely no effect on the main series what so ever. Being set 1000(?) years in the past just helps with that.

>>54196077
But lucas hated ESB portrayal of the force. Thats why prequel jedis are so gay.

>>54196098
It's only canon if the Lord High Mouse declares it so.

>>54196098
Yes, it can, but not it is. And riddance good.

>>54195835
Grey Jedi aren't an order, it's just an appellation for force users that actively reject the Jedi way (at least in part) without going full Sith about it. It usually requires them to have been or been trained by a Jedi too, rather than being some random force user from any of the smaller sects scattered about.

>>54196025
Man, when I was a teenager and stupid I had a full story idea for a potential KotOR 3. I think it was actually pretty decent...(you) would be a Jedi padawan who'd just about avoided being killed by the Sith, and the game was going to focus on a resurgent (Revanite) Sith Empire armed with clone troopers and cloned Jedi, all organized by the apparent big bad, Darth Rahu, and his apprentice, Darth Mainyu, who would be male or female based on your own character's gender (it would match yours), and wore a mask that was basically a black reflective surface.

The "big reveal" was going to be that (you) were a clone too, as was Mainyu. The whole clone army had been in the works for years but through some contrived circumstance (hadn't worked out what yet) you'd been basically a "prototype" of the clone idea, as had Mainyu. The two of you were identical in the Force and so kind of "resonated" with each other. Mainyu takes over as the real Big Bad about 2/3rds through the game, of course. I'd imagined levels on at least Hoth and Kessel, probably Bespin or some other cloud city as well. And the final level would be on one of Coruscant's moons.

Might one day adapt it into tabletop...

>>54195723
>While I agree Avellone tends to hamfist a bit in his writing, I think you're overblowing how bad Ulysses was.

You literally can't win. No matter what you do in LR, you in some way prove Ulysses right.

>>54196088
I didn't say I agree, I just said that's how the films put it, and the films are the one thing that won't ever become noncanon.

>>54191423

>Fascism is Bad
Hello, /int/.

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>>54196080
Did she hate it? She gives no indication of such. Her bitterness comes across more as being about the fact that she's convinced she know the One True Way of the Force but no one understands how "brilliant" it is and instead keep trying to tell her that she's wrong. But she refuses to admit that. She's not wrong, oh no. It's the FORCE that is wrong! And so she will kill the Force.

>>54196212
At some point you gotta say to yourself, do you want Star Wars to be what Lucas or Disney declares it to be, or do you want Star Wars to be what you enjoy, all the interpretations, books, movies, comics, and games that you love interpreted how it makes the most sense to you, as part of this grand setting?

>>54189959
Manchildren hate that someone tried to do something slightly more interesting than not at all in their manchild setting. She's a character that should have just been in a setting that isn't garbage.

>>54196240
I'm an autistic stickler for canon. I blame it on my religious upbringing, we used to murder each other over what in the bible is canon and what's apocryphal.

>>54196246
Here's the thing, guy: I DON'T hate Kreia. I love her as a character. She's a fantastic character, a great villain, and I love that she is at once a consummate liar AND the main source of exposition in the game, because it lets the game really fuck with your perception of things before finally, in the end, realizing that she was wrong.

What I hate are people who forget that final part - who forget that KREIA LIES and that she is objectively wrong about the Force. I don't hate the character, I hate her fans.

>>54196239
Yes. I thought it was obvious from her backstory, that she is very, very bitter from what happened to her and her reliance on a force that she felt lead her astray and helped cripple her, before betraying her entirely. I never got the vibe that she was supposed to be right about everything, and while her feelings towards moral greyness are compelling and may be correct to a degree, the work never gave me any indication that her belief in destroying the Force was justified or anything other than the work of a bitter, defeated old woman.

>>54196275
>she is objectively wrong about the Force
It's a gross oversimplification to declare someone completely wrong or completely right. Kreia was definitely wrong about some things, but other ones, not necessarily so. It's her conclusions that must be investigated for validity, not her individual points, and they must be looked at individually.

>>54196182
And Ulysses is fucking hypocrite. Fuck avellone.

She's the BadGuy has a point trope, and /tg hates anything not grimdark

>>54196262
>we used to murder each other over what in the bible is canon and what's apocryphal.
Good times. Now leftist are ruining everything.

>>54196347
I guess when you're far enough to the right, everything looks like the left.

>>54196347
>Good times.

No it wasn't. It may be in my nature but I still accept that most of it was just autistic screeching.

>>54196246
Daily reminder, that avellone is a munchild, and kreia is his pet character.

>>54196360
That point works in the opposite direction too, senpai.

>>54196366
No, it wasnt. Killing and bullying plebs for no reason was the best thing ever. And now everything is sterile and boring.

>>54196394
>Killing and bullying plebs for no reason
We still do that.

>>54195659
>>54195694

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0433458/fullcredits

Nope.

>>54196394

Go to africa or southeast asia if you don't want things to be sterile or boring.

>>54196394
t. first world civilian that's never taken a life

>>54196400
But not that often.

>>54195696
but the force is a conspiracy. well more correctly 'kind of' a conspiracy. It moves in uncertain ways but it has a point. The force is the meta narrative of life and the galaxy. It has it's natural flow, but it can also be harnessed and directed. much like a river

>>54196182
Anon, can you tell me what exatly was Ulysses trying to say?
Because to this day I'm not sure. Everything he talks is as if he is high or insane or both.
I'm not saying that he is wrong - I literally didn't understand what he was trying to say or to do. I understand that he was pissed at the Courier for bringing a package with explosives, even if the Courier didn't know it. But all the rest - I'm unsure.

>>54196347
stop baiting /pol

>>54196442
I think he was talking about the consequences of interference and responsibility?

>>54196442
He was avelonne self insert, who hates old west-coats fallout setting. Thats all.

>>54196481
Could you elaborate? I have seen people talk about this for some time, but I was never able to understand.
What Ulysses said that reflect Avelonne hate for old west-coat fallout setting?

>>54196442

In-Universe: He is angry and blames others for things that weren't directly their own fault. Also, if you blow up either side you prove him right that they had it coming. You kill him, you show humanity hasn't changed. You do neither and help him, you show the sign of responsibility he wants.

Meta: Avellone has made it clear that he doesn't think society in fallout can be allowed to rebuild past a certain point or it stops being fallout. Essentially, civilization = not muh wasteland.

>>54196507
Also according to the tapes, the most traumatizing thing that happened to him was going into LITERALLY SHAKING mode from cultural appropriation.

>>54196537
Kinda funny when he used to be part of a raping, slaving, primativst Romaboo faction, huh?

>>54196507
Sounds like he failed to understand one of the basic themes of Fallout: What comes after the end of the world? Making societies tend to be that sort of thing, it would be dumb if it just stopped past a certain point.

>>54189959
Kreia is meant to be the polar opposite to the universe's pitch white pitch black morality by adding complexity and rejecting both. Most normal people accept this as an interesting change of pace, but autists screech about how she doesn't belong in Star Wars.

>>54196562
>completely missing the point of her character

>>54196581
Not an argument

>>54196581
I swear if you repeat the "She lies." point again without even bothering to address anyone who criticized that oversimplification above, then your cat is going to shit directly into your mouth while you sleep.

>>54196606
>>54196607

Because the idea of "she brings complexity to this black and white universe" is a retarded statement that ignores the almost 20 years of Star Wars NOT being a black and white, simple universe up to the time of the game's release. It's a statement that's literally only valid if your only exposure to SW is the movies.

>>54196632
You sure do like ignoring a bunch of other EU content too.

>>54196632
Then isn't Kreia consistent with other morally grey characters in the EU, and thus a continuation of theme? I don't see your problem with her in that case/

>>54196632
Hell I'm not done, even the films don't support this. Anakin did terrible things because he thought it was the only way to save his wife. That's not black and white, that's the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Darth Vader later in life could have just killed Luke but he wanted to bring him over. That shows he isn't pure evil and in some way still cares for his son. Luke used the dark side to defeat Vader but he didn't give in. Yoda was willing to let Luke's friends die in search of a greater good, that's not the actions of a pure good person.
The only objectively evil person is the Emperor.

>>54196653

I don't like characters who criticize every action I take so that they can be smug, it's why I hated Ulysses.

>>54196680
>I don't like characters who criticize every action I take so that they can be smug
I get that, but outside of the first planet (which is mostly to establish her philosophy to you and get you to stop trying to talk to her like you do a normal NPC, where you tell them what you think will please them), she generally does have a dialogue option she's happy or at least not bitchy about.

>>54195665
Anakin was a keeper of the balance whether he intended to be or not. The Jedi were corrupted by upholding the will of the Republic over the will of The Force and he acted as a strong counterbalance to them.
It took Luke to push Anakin to come full circle and act as a counterbalance to the Emperor.

>>54196688
>she generally does have a dialogue option she's happy or at least not bitchy about.

It's almost always just a form of "because I wanted to" when you get down to it. She literally only cares if you do something because you chose to rather than being compelled.

>>54196700
Which is part of her philosophy, yeah. She's a bit of a Levay Satanist, huh? I'm just saying, she's not like Ulysses where you have ZERO choice in how much of a shithead he is.

>>54196723

I think what bothered me the most is her lecture with the beggar on Nar Shadaa. Help him or not, she makes it out to be a shitty choice.

Well if both my options have a shit outcome, why should I care which one I make?

>>54196750
Even those of us that like Kreia admit that particular choice was hamfisted and badly done.

>>54196688
That isn't true. Kreia highly approves of achieving victory without combat, as well as manipulating people into doing what you want.
On Dantooine, you can lie to the invaders and tell them you'll sabotage the base you were asked to defend, making them totally unprepared for a fully-defended base. Kreia actually compliments you on how well you maneuvered the situation in that case.

I feel like Kreia would be unable to comprehend the actions of an actual PC that could say whatever they wanted
>"Why did you fly the ship into the Jedi Temple"
>"I don't know, seemed like a good idea at the time."

Kreia ensured that the Exile never ended up like Revan in the Light Side dialogue options, where Revan was eye-rollingly self righteous and zealous, going on and on about "muh light! muh light! muh light! Bastila I hereby respectfully decree that I love you!" without any subtlety or nuance.

>>54196795
My post says you get dialogue that makes her happy after the first planet though?

>>54196825
I misread your post. Ignore that.

>>54196819
I'd say murderhoboing is just being a Sith, but even Sith generally have REASON behind murderhoboing.

>>54196819
>"Had you taken a precious few minutes to contemplate the ramifications of your actions, would you have made the same reckless decision?"
>"Probably."

>>54196824
Bastilla is worst girl.

>>54196853
>Ramifications? The very concept never crossed my mind, I just thought it would be funny.

>>54196750
>>54196767
>implying the nar shadaa beggar choice wasn't well done

Kreia twists it into a shit deal regardless of what you do in her attempt to try to instill the idea that you should always take a couple of seconds to question what you're doing.

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>>54196903
>Kreia the problem with that is you're running on the assumption that I put much thought anything I do. Live fast and die hard, motherfucker. Let's bounce.

>>54196933
>That mindset is going to kill you one day.
>Yeah, probably.

>>54196544
He also destroyed a New Canan without any remorse, yet he constantly whines about PC destroying muh Divide. Well, its an avellone writing, after all. I also fucking hate, that courier is canonically balmed for divide destruction, i liked to create my own headcanon couriers.

>>54189959
Because she is the game developer's mouthpiece/self-insert

>>54196177
Would be shocked and surprised by the reveal cause I'm thick/10, would play.

>>54196262
People's dogmatic adherence to canon has started to bother me a lot. People realize that canon and fanon are equally fake, right?

>>54196606
>assuming everything is an argument

>>54198239
I just want to shit on people opinions, to be honest.

>>54196279
>>54196275
I don't care about Kreia's philosophy. I don't care about what she says about the force, or the fact that she's bitter, or what she believes, or anything else. That's not the issue of her character. She can believe that the Force is wrong and wants to kill all the Force users of the galaxy and I still would have no issue with that.

The fucking issue in her character is that >>54195535

That cunt tells you, firsthand, first conversation, that she will betray you.

In the second conversation, she makes a point to tell you again that you should kill her because she will betray you.

Third conversation. Fourth. Fifth.

Where the fuck is my option to kill her? I am a Sith, when a guy tell me that he will betray me, I kill him. It's the most logical thing ever. Why is she on my ship? Why is she alive? Why isn't she dead? Why does she keep telling me she will betray me and I still have no options to throw her into the sun?

>>54198504
Go to bed Kreia.

>>54189959
Because she's a massive hypocrite

Jolee had the right of things, desu.

>>54198560
It's a video game dude.

>>54195835
>The LIGHTSIDE

This is part of the problem with Star Wars as popular culture sees it now, there is no light side, there is only the Force and the Dark Side of it which is a corruption. Light Side shit was made up in the old EU because some writers wanted an easier way to justify the moral preening of their snowflakes. And now the setting suffers for that because it simplifies and categorizes the dualism evident in Star Wars myth and religion even harder with dumb shit like some Force powers being locked behind some sort of nonsense moral barrier. The Duelistic nature found in the setting is far more closely associated with Manichaeism then pure Taoism philosophy besides, because Manichaeism is an amalgamated duelistic theology, it incorporates and includes many sources for its black and white world view, not just the classical Chinese edification of moral posturing.

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>>54189959
I mostly dislike that when she says "You are just robbing these people of a chance to improve so you can hog the EXP to yourself" there is no "Of course I am. I will become the strongest being in the universe" option.

So, I like kreia, I dislike that the game doesn't let me release 100% of my swagger energy.

>>54198829
This, if you had the option to tell her dumb cunt to fuck off because her anal mental gymnastics over justifying her shitty behavior don't matter, it would solve many problems with her character. You can do the same with Jolee to convince him to join you, you can talk down Bastila even after she falls, you can even thumb your nose at an entire Jedi council and get away with it, twice, but not precious Kreia. Because the real issue is that Kreia is presented as less a character and more a mouth-peace that is never wrong, even when she's blatantly fucking wrong to the point that she has a tantrum at the end of the game regardless of how you play.

>>54189959

Because Avellone thinks he's being smart and deep with his characters, when instead they come across as whiny bitches who can't cope.

>>54199061
That's not really what I said, anon.
You seem to be doing a few mental gymnastics yourself to produce outrage from air.

>>54196098
Except the Mouse has decreed it is not, and thus, it is not.

>>54199143
The Mouse can suck my sweaty balls, nucanon is dogshit

>>54196442

>waaah the player blew up my home by accident
>waaaah i don't liek the legion anymore
>waaaaah the tribals are honoring me
>waaaaaah i can't fucking deal

I swear, after listening to his conversation, I just reloaded my save, and shot him in the head, without even listening.

>>54199112
She gets pissed at you light side or dark, and even more so if neutral, Avelonne went out of his way to present a different Star Wars full of a character trying to point out moral equivalency and only managed to make a character that doesn't even follow the sophistry they espouse.

>>54199155
Dumb magic trees are still better then the majority of the old EU.

>>54199155
Good thing your opinion is irrelevant and doesn't matter, huh?

>>54199170
And now this has absolutely nothing to do with I said.
Truly, mortals do not understand my endless quest for ultimate swole.

>>54199184
>better than the adventures of based Wedge, Piggy, and co
>better than Mara Jade
>better than Kyle motherkriffing Katarn
lol this nigga
>>54199200
>irrelevant and doesn't matter
>there's an entire movement of fans who are telling disney to fuck off
'k

>>54199230

Can you send me a link to the "fans telling Disney to fuck off?" I want to have a good laugh at how irrelevant they are.

>>54199250
Repeating it doesn't make it so. But look up the Rebelibrarian, I'm not gonna spoonfeed you like that cunt Hidalgo.

>>54199230
The only good thing about Kyle is the Mouldy Crowe, Mara Jade was never good and the adventures of Biggs and Wedge was never canon even in the old EU unless you honestly think they gave Darth Vader a birthday cake while posing as spies.

>>54196238
you have to go back to your containment board, /pol/ack

>>54199272

>On October 30, 2012, the Evil Empire (aka Disney) bought the entirety of the thing called “Star Wars” from George Lucas. This was greeted with less horror than I had anticipated, especially in the face of the grim announcement of a new film called “Episode VII” slated for release in 2015.

>It was like being in the Senate hall and watching everyone applaud Palpatine’s rise to power: liberty dying to thunderous applause.

>It took almost two years for me to see others showing the signs of disillusionment I had felt immediately. And it took a catastrophe to finally make others realize what I had seen all along: Disney is evil and their intention is to destroy Star Wars.

>On a day that will forever be known as Death Star Day, Lucasfilm made the Order 66 Announcement: the vast majority of what defined Star Wars for almost 40 years would no longer be considered canon. The Disney Star Wars franchise would be, in every way that matters, a total reboot.

Cringe and autism. I love it.

>>54196507
and what happens if you talk him down and blow up nobody ?

>>54199272
>>54199312

Oh, oh, and their facebook page has 3.5k members.

Whereas the new SW movies had several million viewers.

Disney is going to ignore these fucks and make billions in profit.

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>>54199230
>Mara Jade

Bitch with a pink lightsaber shits out an even more insufferable edgelord from her poison snatch then Kylo fucking Ren.

>>54197501
is is stated by word of god that he is right and you are wrong ?

>>54199281
>birthday cake
What the fuck are you even talking about spazmodeus, I'm talking the X-Wing series

>>54199367
No matter how good you think those novels are, they have to share a universe with the Vong.

>>54199351
Sure faggot. Why are FFG continually delving into the expanded universe if its fans are so irrelevant? Watch the diminishing returns this Christmas and despair, I'm betting I'm not the only one refusing to see Last Jedi.

>>54199432
Not an argument.

>>54199355
Ben skywalker was fine, it was cade that poisoned the well

>>54189959
I don;'t hate her, I hate that people forget that she's supposed to be Half Wrong, Half Metacommentary about the application of game mechanics to morality and vice-versa, half semi-decent-points, and 100% crazy old lady.

>>54191980
>Kreia insisting that the Jedi must confront and come to terms with their darkness and not shut it down as it will only be detrimental not only to them but to innocents. That teaching is of the Darkside and Sith
Only no, they do need to confront it, though not usually with violence, they need to face their desires and fears that lead to the Dark Side and LEARN to let go, they need to soothe their emotions, not just ignore them and hope they go away.

>>54195544
The Family seemed to have a lesson that a lot of people missed, it may have been less literally "This is how the force works" and more of a warning as to Anakin's fate.

Alternatively it seemed to be teaching that the emotions that LEAD to the Dark Side will always exist but they need to be soothed, not ignored.

>>54196279
It's also just a generally interesting idea that in a setting where destiny is an actual thing someone would try their best to kill it even if they think they're probably doomed to fail.

>>54196819
Man, if I could actually talk to Kreia and had completely free-form choices...

>"Why did you help him? He did not earn that."
>>"Because it was the right thing to do."
>"I see the Jedi taught you well. Did you ever stop to consider that by helping that man, you may have weakened him?"
>>"Or I may have strengthened him. That doesn't matter. It was the right thing to do."
>"He has credits now that he didn't earn. That could espouse jealousy, anger, in others. They will hate him for it."
>>"Maybe. But the actions of others are not my responsibility. Everyone has a choice, Kreia, and as long as that is true, I will choose to what is right, because it's right. I couldn't stand by and watch the Mandalorians slaughter people, and I can't stand by and watch a man starve when I could help him."
>"But it is not truly your choice, is it? That is a decision reached after a lifetime in the Jedi Order. You cannot claim to be separated from that, your upbringing, your teachings."
>>"Maybe. But then if I was such a Jedi drone, I never would have gone to war against the wishes of the Council, would I? No choice is made in a vacuum, but our choices are still, ultimately, our own."
>"And if, in the end, your choice brings greater harm than good?"
>>"Then I will try and fix that."
>"I man could spend his life trapped in a cycle, from a philosophy like that."
>>"Or maybe he will make the Galaxy a better place - one choice at a time."

>>54199432
>Watch the diminishing returns this Christmas

Given how well received Rogue One was, this seems...unlikely. Even if there was some kind of "backlash" that was going to happen from VII (seems unlikely from a $2 billion movie), Rogue One easily would have revitalized the interest.

>Why are FFG continually delving into the expanded universe if its fans are so irrelevant

Because it's a gold mine of potential resources. Why NOT make use of it?

>>54195547
>>54195535
>>54198560
One part to remember is that she explicitly says you two are linked through the force. If you remember theres an ability when shes in your party relating to healing or something like that I think. Essentially though killing her at least early on would probably kill you due to your weak connection to the force.

>>54195678
I always made damn sure to shoot Ulysses in his smug pseudophilisophical face.

>>54200742
This.

Kreia was a failure. She was a failure of a Jedi and a failure of a Sith.

She watched her apprentice as Arren Kae, Revan, succeed at both. She watched her Sith Apprentices, Sion and Nihlus, beat and embarass her before nearly destroying the Jedi.

So she embraced the bitterness and tried to murder the force using the Exile/Nihlus, and she fails at that too.

>>54202039
In general she comes off as using alot of words to blame everything but herself for her failures

>>54202039
Kreia is Arren Kae.

>>54189959
The game isn't finished, that's for starters. Even if there was supposed to be something behind her stupidity, it's not in the game.

Secondly, she is forced as fuck and you can never be right when conversing, because the writers didn't allowed it. Just because, she is always on top and you can't be.

If it was a p&p game, she would be the DMPC that everyone hates.

>>54202314
It's not that you can never be right, it's that she refuses to admit when she's wrong.

>>54202238
Yes, her apprentice as Arren Kae = when she was Arren Kae.

Sith make a distinction between their old selves and Sith identity. Hence Vader kills Anakin, and why Revan remains Revan.

>>54202356
And you are just cut short, not allowed to answer whenever she is wrong. She always have the last word and you can't do anything about it.

>>54195831
Joke's on you, I never went to college!

But seriously, getting scolded for doing literally anything gets old after the first time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZwzFiRVank

>>54202238
No way

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>>54200742
>"Then I will try and fix that."
>"...try..."
You dun goofed.

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>>54196824

>>54202752
>Morrigan Disapproves

>>54196723
It's a question of ideology: are you doing things for an ideology, or out of your own personal free choice? She wants you to choose what you would choose, not what you think you SHOULD choose.

>>54199200
You know no one's opinions are relevant or matter because it's all different levels of playing pretend, right?

>>54206308
A personal ideology is entirely built out of figuring out what you WOULD choose in a circumstance and from the pattern of choices determining a more overall stance.

Anyone who does things not because they choose to, but because of their own ideology is stupid.

>>54196750
>Well if both my options have a shit outcome, why should I care which one I make?

Because it tells you something about Kreia. First, it tells you that she doesn't believe there's always a correct option. There will always be negative consequences from some choices, and whatever good you might accomplish doesn't erase your responsibility for those even if it was ultimately the best choice you could make; the correct response to being called out on the harm you cause isn't to ignore that harm or to wish you made a different choice, it's to accept the reality you created and try to deal with it.

The second thing it tells you is that Kreia is obsessed with her self-image as a teacher. Half the reason for her lecture isn't because you need a lesson, it's because she feels like it's her job to teach you something, so she'll dig up whatever criticism she can think of. She's not a chessmaster who sees all possible outcomes and has a lesson planned for each one - she just sees what you do and tells you why you were wrong because that means she can feel like she taught you something.

>>54206361
Ideology can be helpful, but it needs to be questioned and tested. If you never question you're ideology then you'll never know if you should keep that ideology or improve upon it. It's why people become extremists. They don't question their ideology, they blindly trust it.

Ideology is a tool, not an absolute. Her whole point is to make you question why you act the way you act. People who hate Kreia are people who are much like herself.

>>54206480
>Ideology is a tool, not an absolute. Her whole point is to make you question why you act the way you act.
There it is, folks!

>>54206128
Yoda was wrong (about that specifically). There, I said it.

>>54206690
Oh, really? Huh.
So, you can point me towards a 'try', then. You can show me what a 'try' looks like. A 'try' exists in reality - neat! I want to buy some 'try', so I have a good supply on hand when I need it. How much for your 'try', sir?

>>54206837
Failure exists, and for failure to exist that means a chance at success has to exist. A chance at success is called a try.

Jesus christ, I know he's a cool muppet but come on.

>>54206906
No no, anon: sorry. 'Try' doesn't exist in reality. To 'try' a thing means to 'do' a thing; or, to 'not do' a thing; there is no 'try' per se. Trying doesn't exist; only DOING things, or NOT doing things. There is no middle ground in reality: things either exist, or they don't exist. Schrodinger's cat is a paradox, it does not exist. Neither does 'try'.

>>54206968

Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

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>>54206968
>ideas don't exist

Please stop trying to rationalize the philosophy of a puppet from a children's movie.

>>54191500
Fuck, those are some offensively awful tips. What the hell are they even from?

>>54207094
Would you believe the official strategy guide?

>>54207155

I mean, the Rare Pokemon thing isn't WRONG but they really placed a bad image near the tip.

You can't find Moltres a second time after all.

>>54207184
You clearly mistaken.

That's an Articuno in the pic in Rare Pokemon, you can tell by the blue color.

>>54207279
That's clearly a Zekrom makin an early cameo.

>>54191332
I'm a huge fan of Star Wars, but I still love Kreia. Her shit about balance is dumb, but I'm in the camp that believes that not even she believes it. She just wants to tear the force from the galaxy because everyone who ever spited her was a force user, and shes a bitter old crone

>>54195544
I'm not ignoring the EU due to quality, I'm ignoring it because it's not, and never was, canon. Might as well include fanfiction.

>>54208730
Actually it did used to be canon. There were four levels of canon:

- G-level: The movies and anything George Lucas ever said.
- C-level: Officially canonized books, comics, etc. Canon except if they contradicted G-level.
- S-level: Older books/comics/etc. before the major reorganization that happened in the early 2000s (around the NJO's publication). Canon unless they contradicted C- or G-level.
- N-level: Was never canon or was completely decanonized by Word of Lucas. Parodies (Tad and Bink, Skippy the Droid Jedi, etc.) and the Star Wars Holiday Special fall here.

The Dark Side is for pussies, so speaketh Kel'Eth Ur.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQar1NXXMFI

>>54208789
1. You're conflating "canon" and "in-continuity." To George and those closest to him, the EU was always separate from his own work. He read the comics, but never touched the novels and didn't have a hand in them.

2. You're also mistaking internal guidelines for external truths. These tiers were in place for internal usage for development of new stories, they were set up to show what non-George material writers had or didn't have to follow, or what they could reference or should ignore. It is not actually a hard and fast "all of this stuff is actually considered canon" statement, despite each tier being labeled "()-Canon."

3. You are also forgetting T-Canon, made originally for the live-action series that never happened, but eventually was used by The Clone Wars CGI series and film.

>>54191475
>Everything she says should be taken with an entire East African empire's economy worth of salt, nevermind a grain.
Oh, two grains then?

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>>54189959
I want to get in on this before it all disappears.

When I think back to my playthrough of KOTOR 2 I remember not liking Kreia on a personal level because our attitudes clash so profoundly. Infact, I think we'd hate each other. I live by the whole "a good plan now is better then a perfect plan later" motto and I think she'd hate me simply heading off to right what wrongs I had found rather then sit back and ponder the perfect solution. I think my belief in objective good and evil would also piss her off to no end.

Furthermore, I'm a hurricane of emotions trapped in a human shaped box. I'm pretty sure she'd get annoyed when I tried to pry real human emotion from her cold heart or looked for any reciprocity. We'd never braid each other's hair and have a heart to heart. I get the sense that she wouldn't like me taking her "observations" and criticisms so personally. I also think she'd get pissed after all the times i'd say the equivalent of "fuck your truisms, we can build a better future".

I get that she fits in really well to the story and acts as a good ideological foil for the other main villains in the story, but I dont think I'd be able to stand more then an hour or two with her.

>>54191980
>Kreia telling the player the Jedi council was wrong with their judgment.
She believes this utterly. If nothing else, they should have weaponized the Exile. Did you not hear her hateful condemnation of the council on the LS ending?
>Kreia insisting that the Jedi must confront and come to terms with their darkness and not shut it down as it will only be detrimental not only to them but to innocents. That teaching is of the Darkside and Sith
She also believes this. After all, she wants you to transcend both sides just as Revan did.
>Kreia telling the Jedi Exile she loves him/her as a mother would love her child
She does. Everything she does is to improve the Exile. She's just one of them Chinese Tiger Mothers.
>The force is using them as pawns.
This is just her theory, and one she believes to be true.

>>54199432
>Why are FFG continually delving into the expanded universe if its fans are so irrelevant?
Easier to make than new stuff.

>>54199311
Palpatine did nothing wrong you liberal scum

>>54210031
is that the last supper?

>>54191423
>when one side is Chaos-lite & backs space fascism and the other isn't.
Since when is "forcibly taking children from their parents and turning them into killing machines" not fascist as fuck?

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>play 52 hours of KOTOR 2
>didn't know you turn nearly everyone into a jedi until I saw a youtube video of it
how'd I miss that

>>54199230
I need to find that google document that lists every stupid idea that the EU ever came up with

>>54199331
See
>You do neither and help him, you show the sign of responsibility he wants.

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>>54189959
I have two reasons I can think of, but I don't think most of /tg/ hates her.

She's a meme reacting to the Prequels, and compared to the absolute retards she was a foil to (Jedi Council) it's easy to see her point of view in the game. Problem is it's still dumb.

Next, she's a preachy dickhead who tries to merk you.

If her motivations were more clear, and I know what she was doing but having her actually elaborate on the why and the how would have been nice, I think people could sympathize with her, at least get where she was coming from. They tried, what with Atton telling the PC how much she cared about them, but it never really shows unless you're a dark side character. At least from what I remember.

>>54208930
>TOR
Stop, TOR is garbage.

Fucking MEETRA SURIK.

>>54209121
You have way too much respect for Lucas if you serious want to think that only his work is canon. He's a moron, and plenty of EU material is great.

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>>54213950
Also the way it just completely shat on kotor 2 was just wow.

>>54213950
>>54214787
TOR has it's moments. It does a disservice to a lot of, probably most, things but Kel'eth Ur is not one of those disservices.

I'm still salty that in the base game Revan wasn't even end game content. That was a crock of shit.

>>54214848
TOR has an "apex" jedi that makes Jedi Order from the prequels and KOTORs look like normal people. He sits in a fucking cave and contemplates enlightenment. He also doesn't care that you kill his comrade.

>>54215483
I mean, ultimately, is that not the logical conclusion to the Light Side/the Force in general? Just sit and feel the Force around you so fucking hard. It's like the Buddha thinking himself out of existence and into godhood.

>>54196004
Didn't he say ulysses was wrong through? He also admit that kreia was right and wrong about certain aspect

>>54199355
>pink lightsaber
Blue actually.

>>54213951
1. George Lucas has significant issues, and really should have gotten help with the writing and directing of the prequels. That being said, of course I respect the man. He's created a number of great films.

2. That's exactly how it was. There are multiple statements from editors and other people at LucasFilm that state that the only real canon was the films.

3. I never said anything about the quality of the EU material. There's great stuff and there's completely awful stuff. Quite honestly though it averages out to be pretty meh overall.

>>54215664
Those are a lot of words to admit that yes, you only care about what Lucas made like a demented fanboy and ignore everything else.

>>54212777
The Jedi do not forcibly take children from their parents. That has literally never been a thing except in middle of the Great Hyperspace War.

At all other times, the Jedi talk to the parents about what it means to be Force sensitive, what usually happens when the Force sensitive doesn't get training, and what kind of life the child would lead were they to go to the Jedi, then they let the parents decide.

If the Jedi forcibly stole children from their parents, you can bet your ass that they'd be stronger than just ten thousand members during the Clone Wars.

>>54206690
Yoda said that to make Luke banish self-doubt, because he did indeed have the ability to do it, he just needed to wrap his head around the right concepts.

Luke, being Luke and needing people to hit him over the head repeatedly with blunt objects to get the point (see: finally figuring out he was no match for Vader in Ep V), just went and fucking failed, like he did for most of his time on Dagobah. Let's run down that list:

>fucks up and crashes
>lost
>ship sinks
>Yoda shows up
>Luke fucks up "great warrior" test
>Yoda tests him
>Luke fucks up patience test
>"I cannot teach him."
>FINALLY HE FUCKING GETS IT
>Kenobi speaks up for Luke
>Yoda still worried
>Luke tries to help, bangs his head on the roof because he's impatient
>resorts to shouting at Kenobi to speak for him
>Yoda asks him if he's afraid
>lolno
>HE STILL DOESN'T GET IT

Then:

>can't levitate a rock right
>gets distracted constantly
>fucks up the cave
>fucks up and loses his ship
>fails the "size matters not"
>suckered by Vader with a fake vision
>ignores warnings
>gets his friends into arguably worse trouble, does nothing to help them escape, needs rescuing himself, loses a hand
>doesn't go back to Dagobah before Ep VI to actually finish his training
>when he does Yoda makes it a point to lambast him for rushing off like an idiot JUST LIKE HIS FATHER

>>54215679
That's too bad you interpret things that way, because that's not what I said at all.

I loved most of the EU up to the NJO. But it was never canon.

>>54215722
Nobody cares what Lucas considers canon other than his fanboys.

>>54215754
This was internally true as well. Again, those guidelines, the G, T, C, S, N, stuff, was INTERNAL. It literally set the EU as being of lesser importance than the movies.

And it wasn't something that George came up with.

>>54215772
'Less important' is not non-canon, and again, you seem to place undue importance on the opinions of others like a child in need of reassurance.

>>54215924
I'm only going by official sources here. Anything else is literally fan-wankery. We don't decide what is canon or not, LucasFilm does. And LucasFilm saw fit to continue George's own interests, that the EU which had been running since 1978 was never really considered canon, it was always free to be overwritten. They just organized it into "canon" tiers to better support their contracted writers, and that's mostly so the writers wouldn't feel like they absolutely had to abide by the old newspaper comics and the like.

The mistake was releasing these tiers to the public and giving them ()-"canon" in the name, as that miscontrues the fact of the matter - that even internally, the heads at LucasFilm even beyond George never really considered the EU to be truly canon.

That readers decided that apparently the EU was canon is where things went wrong.

>>54216004
You keep using more and more words to say the same thing, that only care about Lucas' works.

>>54216022
That's literally the opposite of what I said. I even said above that I liked the EU.

But just because I liked it doesn't mean it was canon. I've read good fan-fiction, but that's all it was, just fan-fiction. The EU was just glorified fan-fiction that people got paid to write and get published.

>>54216050
It is what you said, considering your obsessing over what Lucas thought. Not even what he said so much as what you presume the truth to be. Those tiers are clearly wrong, because EVERYONE actually thought none of them counted. Obviously. That's not the way a healthy mind works, not if you actually did like anything in the EU. To presume based on what you think they believed or what they personally believed in defiance against their own rules, that the most negative outcome is possible.

I don't like to bust this one out, but the only alternative I can think of is autism. The autistic are often very insistent on adhering to made up rules or conclusions about how things work, and are incapable of bending or changing on those points.

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>>54194908
That's not just for games /k/omrade

>>54207040
>ad hominem
Aww, cupcake! You only TRIED to win this argument........I DID win it.

>>54207033
Life and death are true, and absolute, and they are not the exclusive purview of the sith. I think you're repeating mantras without understanding what they truly mean...

>>54219466
>wins argument saying I did the thing that I was arguing was possible
I get that you're just baiting for responses, but I'm curious how you plan on spinning this.

>>54219774
Well, technically senpai also pulled a strawman out of his ass by equating 'try' with 'ideas'...It's not true cricket when you play shenaniganslike that, desu.........
But, as you know, when someone stops arguing and starts with the uncritical responses, he's lost. He TRIED, and failed. He SHOULD have chosen to do nothing; or, he should have chosen to win; instead, he chose to TRY, and his victory was snatched from his grasp before he even began......
tl;dr - to try implies an expectation of failure - don't be a failure, anon.

>>54216919
Okay

>>54211528
Fuck off Hux.

>>54219498
>Life and death are absolute
>In a setting where there is life after death

But yeah, only the sith deals in absolutes is bullshit.

>>54220587
That's not what strawman means.

>>54195535
Then you'd also kill yourself.

Good job showing off you are too butthurt to pay attention to a plotpoint that makes up the fucking bulk of the game's story.

Because the attempts to make the conflict between jedi and sith morally grey backfired and made them both look stupid, something only Kreia points out

>>54221670
>In a setting where there is life after death
Only for Qui Gonn, Obi Wan, Yoda, and Anakin (and maybe Luke and Leia). Everybody else goes 'poof!'
At least according to Lucas.

>>54208930
>a literal heretic dressed like a retarded cow is more redpilled than Revan
Smh bioware can't even make their own golden boy Mary Sue seem smart.

>>54189959
Because Kreia is the ultimate NO FUN ALLOWED Star wars character. In short her entire philosophy is "everything you do is shit" whatever you do and that gets irritating pretty fast.

Sure it is interesting to have a morally ambiguous character, it was interesting at the time when KOTOR2 was new, but today being grey jedi is the new popular mary sue which most people hate with a passion, and like it or not Kreia is one of the characters most responsible for it.

>>54221766
Sadly, it is, desu. Anon established a false, or 'strawman', argument and attacked it, instead of arguing against the actual position presented.
You need to get better if you are going to shitpost here.

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>waaah, Kreia is a mouthpiece who is never wrong, waaah begger on Nar Shadda
>people don't get she's a socratic figure who wants the Exile to never take any choice for granted because "it's the right thing to do"

It's not even about moral grayness or making sith sympathetic, it's about preventing a downfall caused by hubris and a belief that you're always right. Which is a pitfall that Atris falls into. Who was supposed to be the new Darth Traya by the end of the game but game being rushed gutted it.

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>>54222349

>>54198560
>Where the fuck is my option to kill her? I am a Sith, when a guy tell me that he will betray me, I kill him. It's the most logical thing ever. Why is she on my ship? Why is she alive? Why isn't she dead? Why does she keep telling me she will betray me and I still have no options to throw her into the sun?

Umm... if you recall that there was force bond between the Exile and Krei that worked both ways, while it was not stated with certainty technically it was heavily implied that if Kreia dies the Exile probably also dies because of the force bond so like it or not the Exile is stuck with her unless he/she fancies death.

What is sad that there were a lot of options about finding out more about force bonds and severing them it never went anywhere because Kreia had to be the final boss of the game.

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>>54211528
You can think the Empire is cool without having to convince yourself they were in the right.

>>54222259
Lucas no longer owns the franchise and the Clone Wars TV series is considered canon by Disney and that has a lot of literal force-space-magic shit which show that it is not exclusive to Obi-wan their group of friends.

Like Mother Talzin literally coming back from the dead TWICE(!) because the plot said do.

>>54215710
>>doesn't go back to Dagobah before Ep VI to actually finish his training
To be fair he wasn't exactly in tip-top condition after the fight with Vader and the revelation about the father thing. Han was lost, the guy that saved Luke's life twice.Luke was a young man he didn't consider the option that Yoda will die in the next few years. Plus Luke was feeling shit that he didn't listen to Yoda and Obi Wan so no wonder he didn't want to go back to Yoday and being told "UP YOU FUCKED LUKE! YES, VERY MUCH YOU DID! NO MORE WILL I TEACH YOU! OUT THE FUCK YOU GET FROM HERE!"

>>54222536
>muh! muh! muh!
That's all I got from your post.

>>54222985
Yeah, not knowing how to read would hamper your trolling skills.

The Force is the moral God of more new age Western Christian radicals. It exists to sustain life and to support those endeavors which sustain life. The Dark Side is a more classical inversion, similar to Angra Mainyu or some other Shadow figure which represents the duality of goodness and the impermanence of happiness. Star Wars is based on New Age hippy nonsense painted over archetypal questing imagery.

The good guys win. The bad guys lose. Kreia is hated because she was essentially a Fourth Wall character which was out of place, perhaps a transplant of some author or philosopher. She was unhappy in the Star Wars universe due to meta knowledge. The new Star Wars film out this year seems to be following the same path. Moral relativism doesn't resonate with archetypal imagery and actively works to destroy it. It's why Force Awakens sucks, and the new movie will likely suck.

>>54224063
You can just say you don't like the Force Awakens. You don't have to make up reasons for your opinion.

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Jacen did nothing wrong.

>>54189959
>people think that they were supposed to actually listen to a sith lord named after betrayal.
was kreia too smart for kotor2 players?

>>54189959
Because she's shit, Avellone is shit, everything he writes is shit and Obshitian is the biggest shit ever.

>>54224261

seems like it anon

>>54222433
People nowadays can't.

>>54224191
>You don't have to make up reasons for your opinion.

You don't have to, but presenting reasons for your opinions is generally what discussion is predicated upon.

>>54216093
Not him but something being noncanon doesn't automatically take away from your ability to enjoy it. You seem to be equating that it's the case, like the fact that something doesn't happen in canon means it's a story to ignore.

>>54224662
You're ignoring over half of the argument.

>>54196442
ulysses was all about symbols, home, and the effect of others on the world.
>his home was taken from him
>he found a new home in the legion
>he was a frumentarii who was one of the best in the legion
>he went to zion and taught the white legs how to be like the legion
>they honored him and took his symbolic dreadlocks and did them theirselves
>he was shocked that they did this, as the twists in the hair meant something to his old home, his old tribe and theirs did not
>he starts asking himself questions about the world that he is in
>he leaves the legion and wanders to the divide
>he finds a new home in the divide, somewhere he can be at peace
>courier six (or maybe not courier six) delivers a package to the divide
>it activates nukes and tears the divide apart
>ulysses loses his home again
>ulysses wanders once again, takes the old world flag as his new symbol
>the old world is gone, and he wishes to return the present to the old as in remove it
>he travels to the sierra madre, and the big MT
>he learns of the old world more, and these conversations make him more staunch in his opposition to the present world
>as he wanders he does courier jobs to keep himself alive
>his latest job has him finding courier six' name right after his
>he gives the job to the courier by declining the offer thinking the courier will be killed
>he follows the courier and watches as the courier retraces his footsteps going to all the same places ulysses holds important
>the courier returns to the divide
>ulysses sets out to make a point that the courier does not have to keep going his present way
>as the courier delivered (or may not have delivered) the package to the divide the courier once again comes into the divide
>he tells the courier to go home, to stop pressing on, and asks why the courier continues
>finally the courier meets him and he explains that the new world must die as the old world did

>>54224688
Well why else would you care what a person considers canon or not? The only reason to do so is under the assumption that noncanon work is to be discarded on principle.

>>54224720
There's nothing to discuss if you want to ignore the argument, anon.

>>54224732
I prefer to pick at the reasoning behind what compels people to argue in the first place.

>>54224770
Pretty sure that one's a major fallacy, anon.

>>54191475

she was completely right about the fact that the galaxy would be much better off if it wasn't constantly caught up in the middle of wars between two autistic wizard factions and their extremist views.

>>54224770
Ah, the mark of a utter brainlet. Let me try some psychoanalysis on you; you 'pick at the reasoning behind what compels people to argue' because you're an insecure cuck and you enjoy the fleeting feeling of superiority it gives you?

>>54224720
>>54224780

it's bulverism or at least pretty similar to it

>>54215706
>The Jedi do not forcibly take children from their parents. That has literally never been a thing except in middle of the Great Hyperspace War.
It happened to Bastila. They don't abduct them, but they do strongarm the families into giving them up.

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>>54196182
Not if you find all his audio tapes, anon-fampai-senpai-dono. Then you get to throw his stupid hipocrisy in his face; you literally get another dialogue option if you have.

>>54191980
Literally all of these are true, lmao.

Honestly I don't think I can objectively comment on Kreia anymore, as stupid as that sounds. I accept that there are flaws in her writing and shit but goddamn I literally wrote my college essay about her and while I know those are a joke, I ran into the woman who read it and she personally complemented me on how good it was even though she knew nothing about Star Wars\that particular game so she googled around for extra background.

That's how fucking entrenched I am, so with that pill to swallow beforehand, I un-ironially think he's awesome and I'm a fairly regular fa/tg/uy. There are plenty of us who like her, it's just lots of fun stuff to argue is introduced by talking about her--all of the time we could spend talking about that is devoted to a handful of talking points repeated ad nausea with no forward progress.

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Cannon fags get cucked. The mouse holds your strings now

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>>54215664
Georgie boy takes too much credit for the creative work his wife and friends did.

>>54189959
Who would hate Kreia? She's a bitter old hag who hates the idea of relying on a nebulous higher power designed for a kids movie that people like to jack off to.

About the only way I could see someone hating her is if they took the star wars universe any kind of serious on a philosophical or moral ground and didn't realize she was a lying bitch who was mindraping your crew.

>>54191332
Except Kreia is actually a really popular character in general, and lots of Starfags love her. As do I.

>>54226712
What exactly was the topic of the essay?

>>54222349
>hurr 2deep4u

The reason people dislike Kreia is because she takes to task the childishness of the Star Wars universe and its literal black-and-white morality. It reminds Star Wars fans that the universe and the original movies were 100% meant for children and puts them on the defensive.

It's also not a coincidence that she happens to be an old woman. If she were a sexy chick or an old man she might fare better.

>>54195173
>describing all of this interesting character depth in an attempt to explain why people DISLIKE the character

???

>>54198829
>Do I even have to explain to you why that i-
>I WILL STAND AT THE SUMMIT AND MAKE YOU ALL PAY FOR THE PRIVILEGE OF WATCHING MY ASCENT.
>I hardly thi-
>EMPTY THOSE POCKETS KREIA

>>54199168
I did that anyways after talking him out of the idea. Still not sure if he'd been hitting the mentats too hard.

>>54190000
Quads don't lie