Early dark ages setting

>>54186673
There really weren't differences, that's the whole point of the Middle Ages. Most things stagnated.
The Roman Empire fell apart, and the pieces just sort of stayed there.

I guess the Byzantine Empire (read: Roman Empire, sans the city of Rome) were still relevant back then?
There's a guy in the OSR general who likes talking about the Byzantines. Don't think he's on right now, but maybe ask there?

The Middle East was more interesting back then.
The Arabs hadn't taken over yet, so the Persians Iranians owned most of it.

>>>/tg/hwg/

>what did they have and use?

what the fuck do you mean by this? please specify.


basically you have tribal germanics sacking and destroying cities and civilised peoples, rome falling apart, huns and turks invading, etc

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>>54186673
Start with Gregory of Tours.

Seriously, Gregory's Historia Francorum is the best possible introductory text to this subject. You'll laugh. You'll rage. You'll laugh quite a bit. You'll skip the sections where he rants about theology and comets.

https://coinsandscrolls.blogspot.ca/2017/06/table-of-rulers-history-of-franks.html

>Most things stagnated.
I would argue that the actual "age of stagnation" is maaaaybe 100 years, tops. Maybe. And just in France and Italy. But that might be too in depth for this thread.

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>>54187569
>There really weren't differences, that's the whole point of the Middle Ages. Most things stagnated
>Shit remained the same for a thousand years
>There were no advances in technology and metallurgy
>Major cities didn't arise in Italy during the High Middle Ages (which is distinct from the Early Middle Ages and the Late Middle Ages by being exactly the same as the other two)

Draper & White, please leave and don't come back.

>>54187569
I didn't realize new /tg/ was this bad at history.

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>>54189298
>The reason for his execution was that, after his brother’s death, he had murdered his own wife, after cruelly maltreating her, and had then slept with his brother’s wife.
Bard material right here!

>>54187569
It hurts worse because you're really trying to help.

Watch Terry Jones Barbarians documentary.

>>54187569
>that's the whole point of the Middle Ages. Most things stagnated.
Seriously, shut the fuck up and stop pretending that you know anything about what you're talking about.

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>>54189409
>Terry Jones
>Barbarians
Is it as good as Medieval Lives?

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>>54189345
Old /tg/ was also bad, don't get nostalgic. People are at least helping. There was an attempt. And possibly, by seeing every subsequent poster go "Augh!" and dive off the side of the boat, >>54187569
might be motivated to go learn some stuff, even it's just to "prove us wrong".

>>54189374
Just wait until you get to the Byzantine Edition.

>>54186673
Step one, use a different set of arms and armor.
More spears, axes, maces, shortswords and the occasional broadsword. Shortbows, javelins, and slings, no crossbows. Unarmored, boiled leather, gambesons, and mail shirts. Calfskin and wooden shields. No stirrups equals no knights. Hobilars and mounted skirmishers.

Step two, warfare, culture and politics.
Most places were tribal in nature and people swore fealty to a particular man, not a particular title. If that man died, typically their things were divided amongst all the sons which means building up kingdoms and empires over generations was a constant uphill battle. This means smaller titles in general, a lot more petty dukedoms and petty kingdoms.

Few large cities, and few fancy castles. A lot of small hamlets and villages. More wattle and daub and wood and less brick and stone. A lot more earthen walls, ditches, wooden palisades, and the occasional stone towers, and a lot less of everything else.

A lot more raiding for cattle or slaves or prisoners to ransom. More ambushes. Less setpiece battles.

Laws were mostly not codified affairs but varied significantly from place to place, and person to person.

Religion and superstitions were rampant and church power was limited and fragmented. Magic was to be feared and respected, as it was the domain of the gods.

Literacy was rare, and reputation was king.

>>54189446
>There was an attempt
That's no excuse. Spreading misinformation and objective falsehood under the guise of "helping out" is only damaging.

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>>54189446
Shit son, lemme at it. Amma roll myself a ruler

Rolled 90 (1d100)

>>54189505
Alright, this time without being retarded...

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>>54189484
I try not to ascribe to malice what can easily be explained by ignorance, even on /tg/.

Spreading misinformation is annoying, but to one extent or another, we're all guilty of it. The best we can do is develop better fact checking methods and cite sources. At least anon was eager to help.... even if he missed the mark a bit.

>>54189505
Aww yeah!

Places were still pagan and the Christian/pagan divide was huge in a way it's difficult to recognise even in moderately later periods. You're talking about pre-Charlemagne.

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>>54189505
>>54189527
Oh, fuck me with a spoon. I'm just using a digital roller for the next rolls.
>90
>49
>90
>29
>1

Which gives me:
> It was only to be expected, in view of his character, manners and appearance, that he should have been incapable of maintaining the affections of his subjects.
> Never had any of his predecessors inherited so desperate a situation.
> He died, in the most characteristic way he could have died, bravely but unnecessarily.
> All that she managed to obtain was the recall of her husband; if failure was now inevitable, she was determined that he should not carry the blame.
> Here he spent the summer in an intensive programme of tactical training, testing his own generalship and building up the stamina of his men.

Alright, end result:
>An incredibly stubborn, arrogant and foolhardy king inherits the Byzantine empire in a time of great crisis where it is attacked from all sides. Everyone with half a mind recommended him to make peace, but he insisted on waging war on all fronts. He trained himself and his men extensively and then made his way to the Balkans to charge at the enemy, even though his advisors had already made peace behind his back. He and his men charged straight into a shieldwall, he died, nobody really cared, everybody 'ad a giggle and peace between the Balkan tribes and the Byzantines persisted. His wife, caring deeply for her incompetent husband, decided to shift the blame on his advisors and create the popular image of a brave king who died fighting a ferocious enemy until they were forced into a white peace.

This is fun!

>>54189561
>I try not to ascribe to malice what can easily be explained by ignorance
I don't think he was intentionally malignant, I'm saying that he spreads objective falsehood and that it is only damaging. His intention might have been to help, but that doesn't change what he actually did.

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>>54189561
>I try not to ascribe to malice what can easily be explained by ignorance, even on /tg/.
Napoleon, pls stay, we need you!

>>54189448
Fug. So much better than the standard fantasy shit.

Makes me almost want to play a historical game.

>>54189629
RIP Belisarius.

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>>54189707

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>>54189629
That's... pretty typical, to be honest. Hooray! The system works!

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>>54189746
What about fem-napoleon?

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>>54189800
Get on my level faggot

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>>54189800
>>54189820
muh dick

I've been playing Age of Charlemagne recently, can anyone tell me what's with all the duchies?

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>>54189820
>

>>54189707
Is it true he took naps during battles?

>>54189820
>My little utterly amoral and limitlessly ambitious career soldier can't be this cute!

>>54186673
Around then, I think most keeps were still timber motte & bailey designs. In general castles would have been basically just a big tower called a keep. I don't think the couched lance charge was a thing (neither were real destriers or true heavy cav). Armor was rare and expensive, primary weapons were spears, primary protection was a shield and a helmet. Swords were for richfags. Axes were also popular. The shieldwall was still the go-to infantry formation.

That's me trying to remember and probably being wrong though.

>>54186673

The world is changing at a brake neck pace. The imperial system is broken, and christianity is more divided then ever. Demonic warlords, endless waves of invaders and the fall of ancient cities makes life unsure to an almost apocalyptic degree. Great migrations transform the cultural make up of regions, forcing both the rulers and the ruled to adapt or be replaced. No time for chivalry to be sure.

>>54187569
My flying buttress argues otherwise.

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>>54189891
>The world is changing at a brake neck pace. The imperial system is broken, and christianity is more divided then ever.
I thought you were talking about the present day until I realized that "imperial system" doesn't refer to a system of units.

>>54189883
it depends. in the germanic tribal areas there were no castles at all, no cities (until cucksianity came).


swords weren't for richfags that much. if a farmer worked hard for a while he would be able to afford an ok sword. langseaxes were like the machetes of the day, everyone had them, so swords weren't that rare, it was just easier to use a langseax for fighting and for working than just having a sword for fighting.


everything else is right.

>>54189448
one small correction, crossbows date back to before the Romans and where used as a hunting weapon throughout, they may not have been purpose built but you can guarantee presents picked them up in wartime, also metal fanged maces were not invented until the 1000s

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>>54190339
>Cheesecake

>>54186673
Well according to the new Transformers movie they had plate armor and trebuchets.

>>54189629

What were you rolling from?

>>54190916 c >>54189298
http://coinsandscrolls.blogspot.com/

>>54191036

Many thanks friend.

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>>54191823
But more specifically: https://coinsandscrolls.blogspot.ca/2017/06/table-of-rulers-byzantine-edition.html

>>54192040
That was in the post I directed him to, I was shilling the whole of your blog for you ya' dingus.

>>54192092
No it wasn't. That one ->>>54189298
is my Historia Francorum version. This one>>54192040 is my Byzantine history one. And if he didn't spot the table in the original post, he was going to need to look through the whole blog to find it.

>>54186673
Under no conditions will I put on any underwear that has not been chosen by Shirou.

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>>54186673
>what sort of standard conventions would be good to change

For good worldbuilding, Try to use the "Shadow Tounge" Paul Kingsnorth created for his book "the Wake"

>>54193380
Could you please elaborate for those of us who don't know what that is?

>>54193504

It's a book written by paul kingsnorth. Good novel, but It's main appeal is the damn thing is written in a hybrid of old and modern english.I.E


the night was clere though i slept i seen it. though i slept i seen the calm hierde naht only the still. when i gan down to sleep all was clere in the land and my dreams was full of stillness but my dreams did not cepe me still
when i woc in the mergen all was blaec though the night had gan and all wolde be blaec after and for all time. a great wind had cum in the night and all was blown then and broc. none had thought a wind lic this colde cum for all was blithe lifan as they always had and who will hiere the gleoman when the tales he tells is blaec who locs at the heofon if it brings him regn who locs in the mere when there seems no end to its deopness
none will loc but the wind will cum. the wind cares not for the hopes of men
the times after will be for them who seen the cuman
the times after will be for the waecend

>>54193774
That's pretty cool! Is that the "Shadow Tongue"?

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>>54186673
http://byzantinemilitary.blogspot.com.br/search/label/Europe
http://byzantinemilitary.blogspot.com.br/search/label/Black%20Death%20of%20the%20Roman%20Empire
http://byzantinemilitary.blogspot.com.br/search/label/Danube%20Limes
Through focused on the byzantines, it has a lot of information, the above are just a sample.

http://deremilitari.org/articles/
http://deremilitari.org/primary-sources/#rom
http://deremilitari.org/primary-sources/#em
http://deremilitari.org/2014/01/the-imperial-roots-of-merovingian-military-organization/
Another one to binge read. It's unfortunate that the primary sources for your time period are few here. The articles provide more.

http://www.medievalists.net/2015/01/early-medieval-cutting-edge-technology/
http://www.medievalists.net/2014/07/transition-late-antiquity-early-medieval-period-north-etruria-400-900-ad/
https://www.academia.edu/2533645/Soldiers_to_Warriors_Renegotiating_the_Roman_Frontier_in_the_Fifth_Century
http://www.medievalists.net/2011/12/relations-between-the-late-roman-world-and-barbarian-europe-in-the-light-of-coin-finds/
http://www.historyoftheancientworld.com/2012/12/taxation-in-the-later-roman-empire/
http://www.historyoftheancientworld.com/2011/09/roman-gold-and-hun-kings-the-use-and-hoarding-of-solidi-in-the-late-fourth-and-fifth-centuries/
http://www.medievalists.net/2015/07/christianization-of-early-medieval-societies-an-anthropological-perspective/
http://www.historyoftheancientworld.com/2011/01/the-huns-and-the-end-of-the-roman-empire-in-western-europe/
This one is endless.

>>54189345
It usually is better than /his/, but no anonymous board has quality control on who comes in, right? It's the whole point.

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>>54186673
"A life of Charlemagne" by Einhard is another great piece that describes a great character of the time. Charlie did quite a bit for Europe and Western culture in general. His Frankish empire would end paganism in Central Europe and give a boost to scholarly knowledge and Church power. It'd be a great way to pull political and courtly ideas for the setting.

When groups migrated from Eastern Europe to avoid encroaching cold and other tribes, they kept a domino effect going. Groups that originally were distant but related soon came in very close proximity to one another. The Franks were no different. The two main groups of them were Salians and Ripurarians. Those groups themselves were different Germanic groups that were forced westward together by other migratory peoples. The Sicambri and the Ubii come to mind.

Anyway, if you want a setting to be like the "Dark Ages" there would be an oddly cosmopolitan feel to it. Although everyone in a city or town can understand one another, accents and even dialects would be all over the place. Districts would be clear to the locals, but to travelers it'd all look the same. Gaul saw a huge influx of Germanic peoples seeking new lands to live in as the Huns formed a monstrous army of other steppe peoples and Germanic peoples who chose to join rather than flee. Britain had a small Roman elite that kind of watched their Empire die from afar. All of a sudden, Angles and Saxons from Central Europe show up and spread like wildfire across southern and central England. Spain saw Goths from as far as the Balkans and Crimea settle into large kingdoms after smashing Roman garrisons. North Africa had fucking Vandals from the Baltic make a 200 year pirate kingdom. It was a time to be alive, OP

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>>54193962

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>>54194007

>>54193833

yep

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>>54194015
Kings would carry legends with them. Christianity brought a divine power to kings that came directly from God. Paganism had the same idea, but it had the opportunity to be more diverse. The Merovingian dynasty unified the Franks and became the conquerors of Gaul during the mass migrations. They claimed to be descended from the legendary Merovech. He fought alongside Aetius against the largest threat to the world at the time: Attila. Merovech's ability was attributed to his relation to the god of the sea. He might not have existed at all... but his legend alone (human and/or demi-god) gave a dynasty nearly three centuries of legitimacy to the people and nobility.

The kings of your setting should have such a back story. Or be the guy who will give his great-great-great-great grandkids the legitimacy to rule over hundreds of thousands of peoples' lives.

>>54186673

http://archmagev.com/2nd_Ed/TSR%209425%20-%20HR5%20-%20The%20Glory%20of%20Rome%20Campaign.pdf

http://archmagev.com/2nd_Ed/TSR%209323%20-%20HR2%20-%20Charlemagne's%20Paladins.pdf

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>>54194072
All the moving and grooving done by people would fuck up normally set boundaries. Little rivers could suddenly be the major divide between two warlords in a region.

Some peoples stayed put and watched as strange new neighbors rolled in

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>>54194084
Fantastic

>>54194146
It's also an insane time because some of these massive groups destroyed Romans wherever they found them. Some actually destroyed Rome - a few times! A little time passed and the grand-kids of those destroyers looked around and were in awe. Aqueducts that brought fresh water for miles, fountains, urban planning, forums, large scale architecture, and libraries filled with strange tales from afar completely shifted their cultures. The Franks turned from loosely confederated tribes of pagans to a centralized kingdom of Christian feudal nobility in the blink of an eye (historically speaking). Latin, the language of the evil Romans just a century before, became the scholarly language that all kings, scribes, scholars, and religious personnel had to know.

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>>54194242

>>54193962
>His Frankish empire would end paganism in Central Europe and give a boost to... Church power.

That was actually a VERY bad thing. Christianity, and the ideology it promoted, was a total disaster for the European people.

And I'm not just saying this to be edgy. Europe could have had an industrial revolution 100 or 200 years earlier if the Catholic Church didn't threaten and silence men like Galileo, Copernicus, Leonardo Da Vinci, etc.

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>>54194265
Skull shaping was a thing too. The Huns and some of their neighbors did it along with ritual scarring. It very well could be Roman and Byzantine exaggeration of their "barbarous" enemy... but the skull shaping is definitely a thing. Many of the Germanic peoples who fled or joined up with the Huns copied this tradition. Not all cultures did it, and it was not necessarily something one had to do if they were nobility.

>>54194242
also this

http://archmagev.com/2nd_Ed/TSR%209376%20-%20HR3%20-%20Celts%20Campaign.pdf

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>>54186673

If you really wanted to do this right, I would recommend that you consider the nature of the times back then. With the decline of the Roman empire, antiquity was out and the early middle ages were in. The whole "dark ages" thing is a misnomer, but it was definitely a period fraught with uncertainty and big changes. Civilization (or the one that the subjects of Europe knew) had collapsed and a new order was rising. There were mass migrations and demographic shifts, with tribes such as the Franks and Anglo-Saxons coming to dominate much of western Europe. Germanic pagan traditions were fusing with Latin christian culture in a way that would shape the course of the entire middle ages.

Basically, emphasize the fact that this world you're portraying is entering a new age. Focus on the contrast between the migratory pagan tribes and the civilized imperial folk they've come into contact with.

Additionally, I would recommend you look at the clothing and weaponry of the period to get a feel for what things ought to look like. Firstly you should search "Anglo-Saxon dress" as well as the clothing that the Franks, Visigoths, Byzantines, and other peoples might have been wearing during the 400 AD - 850 AD period. This is an area where you can portray the culture clash by showing how your characters dress.

Some additional details to consider:
>Swords were a sign of prestige and wealth in Germanic cultures because they were hard to make (so only nobles had them)
>Free men would usually have daggers/short swords for everyday tasks and self-defense (the Anglo-Saxon "seax")
>There were a lot of old Roman ruins in England and France that were allowed to decay or were co-opted by the new ruling tribes
>All of the tribes converted to Christianity but they maintained a lot of their pagan superstitions and customs (IE, the days of week in English being named after the old gods, Easter originally being a festival for the fertility goddess "Ostara"

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>>54194297
Although I don't think you are completely wrong, I feel you exaggerate when you say "total disaster". Christianity early on was a social and political glue in a time of turmoil. Monasteries became a great resource for book production and preservation. Charlemagne used them under royal sponsorship to reproduce many old manuscripts onto fresh parchment. Then those were spread around until eventually libraries were formed in several parts of the Empire. The Church did lose its way later on, but to say it was a "total disaster" seems to discount the early benefits.

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>>54193380
I would highly recommend this book, it's the most engaging historical fiction I've ever read.

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>>54194356
Here is a "common" soldier or warband member as an example

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>>54194377
>checked
And the Seax that was a fantastic sidearm

>>54194362
The church became a disaster when it tried to increase and become a temporal power. If they had stuck to ministrations spirituality and not tried to make laws and rule kings they'd be ok. It's because of this through disregard for their own writings and morality that chrisianity is a complete and total joke.

>>54194386
And here is some law code manuscripts:
http://www.leges.uni-koeln.de/en/lex/lex-ribuaria/
http://www.leges.uni-koeln.de/en/mss/codices/bamberg-sb-jur-35/ (click on the link associated with the digital imaging if you want to see the actual pages)

These traveling peoples had an urge to not only record, but also standardize the oral law codes passed on to the by their forefathers. With Latin scholars present, they could finally get the process going. Of course this raised all sorts of turmoil and might make an interesting setting where the party has to escort a member of a noble family to the negotiation where laws are being finalized into one giant compendium

>>54194362
>I feel you exaggerate when you say "total disaster"

But it was, especially after Martin Luther and his Protestant movement set off almost 100 years of sectarian violence in Europe. There's even a D&D campaign book about that time period.

https://dnd.rem.uz/Advanced%20D%26D%20%28unsorted%29/HR4%20-%20A%20Mighty%20Fortress%20Campaign%20Sourcebook.pdf

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>>54194297
Nigga that's just straight-up wrong. Monasteries during the early middle ages are why old Greek and Roman texts are still available to us. If it wasn't for monks tirelessly copying down manuscripts and studying them, academic and scientific progress would have been severely stunted.

Furthermore, the old polytheistic religions weren't nearly as versatile or powerful as Christianity. The framework of the church meant it was organized and had written rites, whereas Germanic paganism (for instance) was not. It also presented rulers with a connection to the power and wealth of the Christian world if they baptized (as well as to the legacy of the Roman empire). The Anglo-Saxon and Frankish kings abandoned the old ways because Christianity offered them so much more.

t. wrote a research paper about why the early Anglo-Saxon kings converted to Christianity

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>>54194356
>>54194377
>>54194386

Also take a look at the kind of swords that were being used during this era. Look up the kinds of axes, seaxes, and spears the Anglo-Saxons (and other Germanics) would have been using. It was more of a North Germanic thing, but also look at the Vendel-era swords being used in Sweden at the same time.

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>>54194497
The protestant wars being so violent had less to do with religious differences than it did with power dynamics. The church was losing its political power and they responded by coming down hard on any elements that represented possible insurrection (IE, priests like Jan Hus and academics like Giordano Bruno). Protestantism was appealing to rulers because it offered them a political opportunity to seize church lands and manage their own affairs independent of the papacy. The theological ideas at hand were a moot point because it was all about the changing power dynamics at the end of the middle ages.

>>54194297
>if the Catholic Church didn't threaten and silence men like Galileo
The Church had no problem with Discourses and Mathematical Demonstrations Relating to Two New Sciences.

They hated Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems.
Not because he said that the sun causing the tides was proof that the earth went about the sun (read that book by the way, it's hilarious),
but because of how he said it. Frankly, Galileo shouldn't have expected to get away with calling the Pope a simpleton 46 times.

>>54194569
>wrote a research paper about why the early Anglo-Saxon kings converted to Christianity
Not disagreeing with you, but post it.

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>>54195020
https://pastebin.com/pxUk2UdF

I wrote this when I was a first-year student in uni. It's far from my best work. I wasn't able to make it as in-depth as I wanted to because the prof had some stupid stipulations about scope and content.

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>>54193774
The Wake is great but, fair warning, it's hella hard to read if you speed-read. It literally made me nauseous.

Very good though, but it's not for everyone.

>>54193869
Nice work!

>>54194084
Also handy.

Am a phd candidate on late antique history, focusing on Roman remnants but still.

I always wanted to see a late antique, not classical (none become popular but they exist), not medieval (i.e. generic fantasy), not renaissance era (1st ed forgotten realms, pillars of eternity) setting. Even bronzeage has golarion.

late antiquity is such a rich era I do believe it is heavily underrated. We need fantasy version of peter brown

It's a little later than you're looking for but there was a neat CRPG vidya that came out recently called Expeditions: Vikings.

>>54195538
Imagine having to paint that. I magine having to paint every single motherfucker in that picture. You'd get sick of it.

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>>54194569
Are there not contemporary reports from the Christianized Romans themselves that they destroyed hundreds of pagan temples, libraries, and killed thousands of philosophers and priests?
Not saying you're wrong, you're certainly more educated on it than me, but still.
Yes I got that from a Varg video but I'm not a total paganaboo so pls no bully

>>54197442
>thousands of philosophers and priests
What

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>>54197587
I may have misquoted there.

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>>54197587
You don't know about the legendary viking and germanic philosphers? We wuz kangs, you know?

>>54197600
Not Germanic ones, Romans and Greeks.

>>54187569
t. uneducated pleb

>>54186673
Go to YouTube and just watch some documentaries, OP

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>Crusader quest is dead

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>>54197686
Repeat after me: /tg/ is better without quests.
We may not question the mandate of chinkmoot, the eternal godmod.

>>54187569
There was more development during the Early middle ages in a large portion of western Europe than when Rome was dipping their dick in it.

>>54187569
A lot of crazy things were going on with the Romans in the period of 450-650AD.

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>>54198365
Wasn't Western Europe mostly worthless to the Romans, its conquest partly being Caesar's vanity project and partly being the easiest way to subjugate the Gauls and secure its borders? Hispania had a lot of mines and Britain was rumored to be full of riches (it ended up being a disappointment) but the real wealth of the empire was always in the east. That might explain why so little of worth in terms of development happened there under the Romans.

>>54198512
That mostly explains it. The exploited the West for resource only to an extent but barely made any actual civic or social changes. Most ruins in Britain consist of private villas for rich men and Legion fortifications and culturally Roman settlements are isolated from the surrounding territories.
They mostly left the tribes and people outside the towns and cities alone as long as they paid tribute.

>>54198512
It was all resourcefully useful.

>>54197766
It is, though. So glad you fags got kicked out.

>>54198651
>It was all resourcefully useful
Only in Iberia, where they mostly mined for metals, it was also a major grain producer and there are well established colonies dating back from Phoenician expansion.

Further north, well Gaul was mostly a tax farm due to the amount of tribes paying tribute. Britain and even Germania minor was more of an extravagant excess. There was really nothing there that they couldn't find in greater numbers somewhere else and as >>54198512 says, most of the wealth and riches comes from the east and the Mediterranean trade.

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>>54194297
Oh yes you are edgy my child

>>54189431

Very biased. It's basically anti-Roman with clear allusion to Anti-American.

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>>54195392
>as is certainly the case with all of the legendary deeds attributed to St. Patrick posthumously, the most unambiguously fictitious one being his removal of the snakes from Ireland, a place snakes never inhabited according to archaeological records.
Goes to show you how thorough he was: all snakes, both living and dead, disappeared from Ireland. Truly best Saint.

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>>54199024
>They hate the Romans
>They hate the French
>They hate the Americans
Why do the Brits hate those who saved them from becoming mouthbreathing, barkchewing barbarians?

>>54199024
are you disabled? when have the yanks ever helped us by not becoming 'barbarians'?

Romans, yes, the Celts did some strange shit but Brits don't 'hate' the Romans

by French you mean the Normans, then you are a mongrel, because the Normans were Norsemen. We hate the French for the 100 years and Napoleonic wars.

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>>54198631
Gaul and Spain were pretty rich. Not at the level of Egypt or Siria, but way better than for example England (than was kinda of a dump to be honest). You can find lots of Ruins more or less well preserved even today.

Rolled 26, 62, 29, 55, 42 = 214 (5d100)

>>54189298
Imma rollin.

>>54200225
>26 In war, he had been merciless and brutal; with the coming of peace he proved moderate and understanding.
>62 ...took no interest in power, preferring to lead the life of a gentleman-scholar in one of his innumerable villas.
>29 He was crowned with a bystander's gold necklet and seated on the throne.
>55 His only possible rival was completely under his control and, incidentally, his son-in-law.
>42 He was suffocated in his sleep by the vapour of charcoal, which extracted from the walls of the apartment the unwholesome moisture of the fresh plaster.

So, an emperor chosen to lead in the middle of a war, and who proves himself to be a merciless commander. As the war ends and he returns to Constantinople, some of his men fear that he will prove himself to be as much of a tyrant in peace as he was in war, but instead he shows little interest in ruling at all. His rule turned out to be rather uneventful, the only people who would have stood a chance of opposing him being firmly stuck under his thumb, and eventually he died in his sleep in his newly built villa.

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>>54200353
>He dies calmly in his sleep, secure in the knowledge that his empire is at peace and without threats
What a nice death.

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>>54197442
>believing Varg
Are you fucking serious?

But no, there were no pagan libraries unless you count the ones in Greece and Rome, and the Church was absolutely instrumental in preserving those and their contents, Christian monasticism is literally 100% of the reason that shit still exists.

>>54199052
>They hate the Romans
Daddy Issues.
>They hate the French
Took away all their relevance in Europe.
>They hate the Americans
Dirty runt that became better than them.

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>>54194297
>Europe could have had an industrial revolution 100 or 200 years earlier if the Catholic Church didn't threaten and silence men like Galileo, Copernicus, Leonardo Da Vinci, etc.
>being this uneducated
>mfw
Gallileo was """"punished""" (if you call being locked away in a mansion and being told you can't touch a telescope punishment) not because the church hated science (they didn't, they were the single biggest supporter of science in the medival and renisance eras) but because Gallileo was wrong. Given the evidence at the time, it seemed impossible for the earth to go around the sun because of the lack of a stellar parallax. The
Church, like any good scientific institution, told Gallileo, who they funded, to stop reinterpreting scripture in the middle of the reformation to try and get support for his ideas because he couldn't prove them off of scientific fact alone. That, not his claim in of itself, was the issue at hand. It wouldn't be till the 1800's that the stellar parallax would be shown to exist, and even then Gallileo's proof of the heliocentric model is still wrong, because what he based it off of was not in fact a result of the earth going around the sun. And all that's ignoring how Gallileo gave the pope, his friend and long time patron, the finger in his book about the subject AFTER the pope was kind enough to let him write it with the simple request to depict both side's aguements fairly.

As for da Vinci and copernicus, neither of those men were persecuted by the church, in fact quite the opposite, the church supported them and helped spread their ideas. Both men were also devout Catholics, and da Vinci created quite a few religious works that are now world famous: perhaps you've heard of "the last supper"

Don't spew objectively false shit you hear from tards like bill nye or NDT, it makes you look like a uninformed retard

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Anon studying Anglo-Saxon and Norse language w/ history here, ask me anything.

>>54197442
>Are there not contemporary reports from the Christianized Romans themselves that they destroyed hundreds of pagan temples, libraries, and killed thousands of philosophers and priests?
Not him, but no, no such thing happened on a wide spread scale. In fact quite the opposite, it was the church who actually preserved pagan works.
>I got that from a varg video
Oh anon, no, you're better than that. Please don't listen to varg, it'll just rot your brain. That man knows next to nothing.

>>54203000
where are your sources

>>54203000
>historical revisionism the post

deus vult right? sure is great to constantly mumble the war cry of people who did more damage to their own countries than Muslims ever did

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>>54194356
>Seax sheathed vertically

Disgusting.

>>54203089
On the issue being reinterpreting scripture:
Blackwell, Richard (1991). Galileo, Bellarmine, and the Bible. Notre Dame: University of Notre Dame Press
Statement by a cardinal regarding Gallileo's reinterpretation of scripture:
All our Fathers of the devout Convent of St. Mark feel that the letter contains many statements which seem presumptuous or suspect, as when it states that the words of Holy Scripture do not mean what they say; that in discussions about natural phenomena the authority of Scripture should rank last... [the followers of Galileo] were taking it upon themselves to expound the Holy Scripture according to their private lights and in a manner different from the common interpretation of the Fathers of the Church...
—Letter from Lorini to Cardinal Sfrondato, Inquisitor in Rome, 1615.
On the claim regarding how he depicts the pope:
Read it for yourself:
English translation of dialoues
http://archimedes.mpiwg-berlin.mpg.de/cgi-bin/toc/toc.cgi?step=thumb&dir=galil_syste_065_en_1661
On the discovery of the stellar parallax in 1831 by Friedrich bessel:
https://books.google.com/books?id=CW6tqdhVMJoC&pg=PA259&dq=heliometer+61+cygni#v=onepage&q=heliometer%2061%20cygni&f=false

>>54203123
Only one who's revising history is you.
This stuff is all well documented, the issue was his reinterpretation of scripture and his depiction of the pope, not that the church hated science, because if they didn't then why in earth would the pope be his patron in the first place?

>>54203089
>>54203256
Oh, I forgot:
The letter to grand duchess Christiana, in which Gallileo first claims it's all right for him to reinterpret scripture, as the duchess had called Benedetto Castelli, a student of Gallileo, to explain the apparent contradictions with scripture created by discourse on floating body.
This was what got people payong attention to the issue, and eventually caused Domincians including Thomaso Caccini and Niccolò Lorini to bring Gallileo before the Inquistion on charges that he violated trent
http://www.inters.org/galilei-madame-christina-Lorraine

>>54203089
Also, here's the e-book for blackwell's book
https://books.google.com/books?id=v1gFDgAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

>>54194297
>Europe could have had an industrial revolution 100 or 200 years earlier if the Catholic Church didn't threaten and silence men like Galileo, Copernicus, Leonardo Da Vinci, etc.
The Church didn't kill scientists because of their discoveries or theories. They were killed because they were Christian heretics who claimed that the Holy Trinity were three completely separate entities or that the Pope was a drooling retard. Given that this doesn't paint the Church in any better light it's amazing that so many people still feel the need to perpetuate the myth that the Catholic Church hindered scientific advancement during the Middle Ages.

>>54203471
Blame the protestants & their cultural dominance.

>>54203471
Blame the Protestants, enlightenment and atheists.

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>>54203913
>enlightenment
As both classical liberal and a republican (small r) who supports both the French Revolution and America's war for independence, I fucking *hate* this term. I hate it because the so-called enlightenment was the only major period in history that named itself (other than historical period deliniations named after great rulers, like the Napoleonic era, the Victorian era or the Year of the Three Emperors). It named itself this because it was all about hyping itself up as light returning after a thousand years of darkness, or an age of reason that would finally put an end to the superstition that ruled humanity for years. Like Sagan put it, humanity escaping from a world of fairies and demons into one of science. That's historical revisionism of the highest order and a downright insult to all great advances that came before.

"Age of Liberalism" would be a more accurate description. I hope one day we will treat the term "Enlightenment" the same way contemporary historians treat the term "Dark Ages": with ridicule.

>>54203000
>Don't spew objectively false shit you hear from tards like bill nye or NDT, it makes you look like a uninformed retard

None of this debunks the argument that Christianity was BAD for Europe.

The main problem with Medieval Christianity is that it promoted a terrible ideology, i.e. "don't worry if your life is terrible, just wait until you die and go to heaven".

That kind of ideology is fundamentally incompatible with everything we take for granted today (i.e. democracy, human rights, a fair criminal justice system, social welfare, child-labor laws, worker's rights, etc.)

Medieval Christianity was a perfect religion for slaves, serfs, and the poor... i.e. probably 95% of Europe's population in the Dark Ages and Middle Ages.

You can argue that "people needed hope" but 99% of the time justice and progress are only possible when the majority of the population realize "hey our lives suck, we can't take this anymore, we need to change things NOW".

To be fair, the real problem in medieval times were corrupt, undemocratic governments. And the ruling class benefited tremendously from this "wait until you die and go to heaven" ideology.

If Europe had stayed pagan there would have been a lot more peasant revolts. The ancient Greeks had a limited democracy. The pagan Celts had "women's rights" (not like we do today but Celtic women had a lot more rights than Christian women would have centuries later).

There's no reason why a non-Christian medieval Europe couldn't have had a faster transition to constitutional monarchy and eventually real democracy.

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>>54200225
>>54200353
>>54200547
Best End.

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>>54203051
Do you have any good sources, other than the Salic Law, for weregeld and other infraction prices?

How would you describe early Anglo-Saxon communities as being structured, with respect to
-water sources
-mines
-game
-forests

In fact, anything you have on mining before 1200 would be welcome.

>>54205812
>None of this debunks the argument that Christianity was BAD for Europe
There was no argument that Christianity was bad for Europe. The anon made an unsupported assertion that Christianity was a total disaster. At best he's putting forward the extremely shaky and desperately-in-need-of-credible-sources argument that if the Catholic Church hadn't locked up Galileo we would've had the industrial revolution a hundred years earlier and avoided this ambiguously defined "total disaster" for the European people.

>The main problem with Medieval Christianity is that it promoted a terrible ideology, i.e. "don't worry if your life is terrible, just wait until you die and go to heaven".
Similarly, this is an unsupported assertion that the next few sentences of your argument depends on. Which specific tenet of medieval Christianity do you believe created this mentality? The best piece of evidence I can find is the Beatitiudes (Matthew 5:3-12), but that's not in any way unique to medieval Christianity and so fails to be a compelling argument for why medieval Christianity (specifically and distinct from any other period of Christianity) promoted this idea (or if it even did at all).

The last few sentences are a peculiar argument too. You've pointed out a couple of instances in which pagan peoples had institutions that mirror our modern ones and put forward that they would therefore reach our level of social progress before our current majority Christian society did. Some people might demand greater citation and deeper reasoning before they accept this, but I'll just go ahead and say that I'm willing to accept that argument. Where I see this argument falling down, however, is in two key areas. Firstly, pagans make up a vast body of people in the world. Greeks or Celts might mirror certain aspects of social progress, but Celts and Greeks don't account for all pagans, and don't even account for most pagans if you're willing to take into account non-Europeans. Cont.

>>54205812
>>54208172
The second point where the argument stumbles is that these traits are also not exclusive to non-Christian societies. Ethiopia, the second country to adopt Christianity in the world (behind Armenia) allowed their women to inherit and own property and act as advisors in communal affairs. It wasn't uncommon for Ethiopian women to act as advisors to their emperors either, I can think of one (Eleni of Ethiopia) who acted as an advisor to three different emperors. As far as democracies go, plenty of European cities in northern Germany, along the Baltic coast, and in northern Italy also had partial democracies, some of which became democracies shortly after becoming Christian, the most notable I can think of being Venice.

>>54205812
>That kind of ideology is fundamentally incompatible with everything we take for granted today (i.e. democracy, human rights, a fair criminal justice system, social welfare, child-labor laws, worker's rights, etc.)
Which is why it created the socitey those ideas came from, right? Makes total sense.
>Medieval Christianity was a perfect religion for slaves, serfs, and the poor... i.e. probably 95% of Europe's population in the Dark Ages and Middle Ages.
Hahahahahahahahahaha
You retard, you fell for the "muh dark ages" meme.
>To be fair, the real problem in medieval times were corrupt, undemocratic governments. And the ruling class benefited tremendously from this "wait until you die and go to heaven" ideology.
>muh democracy is so great
Democracy is just as trash and monarchy, you trade one tyrant for a million.
>If Europe had stayed pagan there would have been a lot more peasant revolts. The ancient Greeks had a limited democracy. The pagan Celts had "women's rights" (not like we do today but Celtic women had a lot more rights than Christian women would have centuries later).
[citation needed]
Also, you're a fool if you don't think paganism doesn't have the exact same means of keeping people in line.

>>54205812
>"don't worry if your life is terrible, just wait until you die and go to heaven"
Religion is the opiate of the masses... BUT! it's also a lot of other things.
Overgeneralizing does everyone a disservice, most of all yourself.

To broadly summarize the New Testament (at the cost of accuracy), "organize yourself, then your life will be less shit while you live it" and "recognize what not being a cunt means so you can avoid being a cunt."

>>54205812
>None of this debunks the argument that Christianity was BAD for Europe.
And you have yet to prove it was bad for europe.
The arguement was that the Church opressed scientists, which was BTFO with sources, meanwhile you have yet to provide a shred of evidence that it was bad, you've just made claims.
You're also vaslty over simplifimg the pagan world, claiming that it better fosters democracy and other such ideals (citation fucking needed by the way), while ignoring the fact that it was medival socitey that directly led to the renaissance, which is what began those ideas being fostered.
In fact, I'd assert that the medival Christian world's focus on philosophy and theology was what led to the valuing of human life, the beginning of treating ALL people as your equal and the focusing on something greater than oneself was what allowed the values you extol to develop, because we definitely don't see them in pagan socitey. Sure, maybe it wasn't along the same lines we focus on, but those socities were far from paragons of equality.

Also, I'd assert that the culture of the medival period was more of a product of the times and the fall of the roman empire, which led to a lack of a centeral authority, a collapse of centeralized power and a general lack of the previous means of enforcing production of basic needs (no more aqueducts and such) that led to a need for Monoarchy, as the areas of land were to large to be ruled by systems like democracy or republics due to the lack of easy communication. monarchy was adopted in part because of the existing tribal structures of the pagans, and part, I would assert, because it was the only thing capable of easily ruling the nations at the time, as it relied on the choice of one person rather than needing the underlying infrastructure that democracys or republics require to be effective.
I'd point to the fact that the
>Holy
>Roman
>Empire
(1/2)

>>54208418
>Democracy is just as trash and monarchy, you trade one tyrant for a million.

If we're going to let a tyrant rule, I'd rather be one of them than watch someone else get all the fun.

>>54205812
>That kind of ideology is fundamentally incompatible with everything we take for granted today
Not really. Early liberals often rationalized that it was for God, not men, to judge people for their actions. Even though such reasoning could just as well be used to support anything from anarchy to tyranny it was an important stepping stone in the development of modern political philosophy.

>>54205812
>democracy,
Comes from natural rights.
>human rights,
Natural rights come from the idea that consciousness has intrinsic value.
A few other religions independently developed that notion, but Christianity introduced it to western civilization.
>a fair criminal justice system,
Is a very modern idea.
One that comes from natural rights.
>social welfare,
I'm like 90% sure this comes from Christianity.
>child-labor laws,
Natural rights.
>worker's rights,
Natural rights.

>>54199024
This is an absolutely retarded opinion.

>>54205812
>>54208554
Being one of the first nations during the period to develop such infrastructure, adopted a psuedo-democracy as proof towards the infrastructure, not religion, being what decided govermental types. The fact is that until the "enlightenment," it simply wasn't possible to create a true democracy or republic on a scale that western nations existed at.

Also, you're ignoring the fact that every socitey, including pagan ones, adopted aome form of monarchy early on, and that it wasn't until they advanced to a certian technological level that we saw the rise of nations like the roman republic or athenian democracy. Even then, these pagan socities you hold up as examples of how pagans did it better both would revert to monarchy or oligarchy, the roman empire and the thirty tyrants respectively.

>>54203256
Burn in hell, pagan.

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>>54186673
Depends. It really, really depends. You're still looking at ~200 years of history, and Merovingian Francia was very different from Lombard Italy and Viking Scandinavia and still different from Anglo-Saxon England and the early Mecca/Medina era of Islam.

I'd consider picking a specific area first and then research that extensively, because trying to comprehensively recreate everything is going to be a lot of work. If you do want an overview, Christopher Wickham's "The Inheritance of Rome: A History of Europe from 400 - 1000 AD" is a solid comprehensive source that covers most of the areas including the Muslim caliphates, although it has not as much on Ireland and the Scandinavian nations.

>>54208648
What?
I'm the guy arguing against the pagan, defending the Church

>>54208659
As an example of some differences to the later medieval eras, in Merovingian/Carolingian Francia there was an importance attached to Rome (and not the pagan Rome of the imperial era but the Christian Rome of Late Antiquity). Being "civilized", "great", "Christian", and "Roman" - all of these things went together. This continued into the medieval era to some extent.

Other things noticeable especially in Merovingian and Carolingian Francia is the emphasis on titles and honours conferred by the king and the wide geographic dispersal of land ownership - lands "owned" by the nobility were not necessarily nearly as contiguous or as regionalized as in later areas (due a lot in part to the wide reach of the Merovingians and later Charles Martel and his sons).

(cont'd)

Rolled 45, 37, 56, 26, 1 = 165 (5d100)

>>54189298
Doing it.

>>54208787
"Real power" was in the legitimacy granted by imperial/royal title (not just by strength of arms), and since the aristocracy had geographically dispersed lands and spent more time at court currying favour with the king, this meant you see comparatively less in the way of fortification of estates.

As the 10th century progressed the fracturing of Charlelemagne's empire would result in families often consolidating their lands or becoming split along regional lines. For example a family that had lands in West Francia and Saxony would probably split into two family branches after the partition between Charlemagne's grandsons, since members in each region would have to choose their allegiance as to which Carolingian heir to back (i.e. Charles the Fat in West Francia and Louis the German in Saxony). This fracturing meant that family holdings would be broken up into more regionally coherent areas. The lack of a singular high court and the intrigues between Carolingian heirs also meant that royal recognition did not mean as much as it used to, incentivizing the need to assert strong local power (ex. by building castles and exerting control over the peasantry), which starts to pull you into the beginnings of the Middle Ages.

>>54208827
>He was already in a state of grave religious uncertainty. No man, in short, was readier for conversion.
>He had no military or even administrative experience; but he was intelligent, serious-minded and a hard worker, and his loyalty had never been in question.
>After death of his first wife, he had gone through a ceremony of marriage with his niece.
>Almost immediately he fell victim to the drunkenness and dissipation that was to kill him before he was seventeen.
>Three subordinate commanders were respectively hanged, impaled and crucified.

Talk about some ecletic information.

The son of the previous emperor, who showed promise early on with a good head on his shoulders and morals to match, and who ascended the throne when he was but 13 years old. Shortly before his coronation, as a direct result of the words of some of his closest advisors he converted to Iconoclasm. He was wed shortly after to a woman a few years older than him, and whom also died due to sickness only two years later. The young emperor turned to the bottle, and ended up taking the daughter of his older sister as his new wife. The new marriage didn't last long, however, as the young emperor died due to conditions caused by his drinking habit barely a year later. His death, however, would be construed to be a murder plot (which more than likely was only an attempt by a self-proclaimed heir to rid himself of competition), and the supposed conspirators were subsecuently executed.

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Honestly I find Breath of the Wild to be a pretty good Dark Ages kind of setting.

Rolled 10, 59, 75, 30, 42 = 216 (5d100)

>>54189298
Let's do this!

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>>54209149
It can also be read straight, in the order rolled.

>>54210562
Looking froward to it. :)

>>54210562
>He then married the widow of his father-in-law and seized the kingship.
>"What I have taken so many years to save," she used to say to him, "you are busy squandering in a prodigal way."
>...and they buried him and so dispatched him to join his accomplice in hell.
>...as they tore themselves to pieces with their own foul teeth.
>He gave him a piece of land of his own on which he lived in freedom with his wife and children all the days of his life.

... Huh...

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>>54194569
>MUH PAGANS CONVERTED TO CHRISTIANITY


no they didn't. nobody would convert from a religion that promotes ancestor worship and reincarnation to a completely different religion. christians slaughtered and killed the people who didn't convert, and burnt their temples and groves.

>>54207332
the communities were tribal villages

they all got water from a spring or brook, mining was done in specific areas, game and forests were plentiful so everybody knew how to hunt

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>>54210737
This is why I recommend working in stages.

Anyway, we've got a guy who married his father-in-law's widow and becomes king. This story is clearly about him.

His wife is a real nagger.

[we're missing a bit]

Some of his enemies were so cursed to tear themselves to pieces with their foul teeth. Apparently, they were buried. Looks like two enemies, if there's an accomplice involved.

And then someone (who) gets a piece of land to live on for doing a good deed, maybe related to revealing the plot?

We need 1 more Ruler roll and either an Event or War roll.

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>>54210791
I appreciate the answer, I do, but I was really hoping the expert >>54203051 here had some good source texts. Next-level stuff, you know?

>>54210803
>We need 1 more Ruler roll and either an Event or War roll.

War roll
>"Follow me," said he, "and I will lead you to a land where you will be able to lay your hands on so much gold and silver that even your lust for loot will be satisfied."

Ruler roll
>He renounced his vows, grew his hair again and took charge of both the wife whom he had deserted when he became a religious and his brother’s kingdom. For this he was excommunicated.

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>>54210845
Anyway, we've got a guy who married his father-in-law's widow and becomes king. This story is clearly about him.

His wife is a real nagger.

He said "let's go to war" and then, nope, everything was fucked, and he was bundled off to a monastery by his brother.

Much later, he renounced his vows, went back to his nagging wife, and took his (brother's) kingdom back. He had his wife's help in this (presumably, she was still at the deposed king's brother's court).

But for breaking his vows and stealing back a kingdom, the king was stricken with madness and tore himself apart with his teeth. His wife was strangled by a helpful courtier, and they were buried together.

And the courtier got a piece of land to live on for doing such a good deed.
That seems about right. Congratulations, that's how your current king (the deposed king's brother) came to power.

>>54210825
that's literally all you need to know senpai.
villages would often move every hundred or so years.

there would be a central mead hall, with probably the chieftans and a few other families living in it.


keep in mind that houses weren't built closely together, they were spaced out and a few hundred feet away from each other at least.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cJITOGHU1k

>>54208418
>>Medieval Christianity was a perfect religion for slaves, serfs, and the poor... i.e. probably 95% of Europe's population in the Dark Ages and Middle Ages.
>Hahahahahahahahahaha
>You retard, you fell for the "muh dark ages" meme.

Educate yourself.

https://vnnforum.com/showthread.php?t=122490

Christianity had its day and nearly every failure of the "West" (again, an idea) can be pointed back to it. Christianity has opened the floodgates to, and created, "humanity" in a way that European polytheism never could, or would. Egalitarianism, the cult of the "individual," bureaucracy, the "anything goes" attitude, the myth of "progress," ( from Christian eschatology) multiculturalism, etc, can all find their origins in the cult of Christ, and its ever-shifting reinterpretation and subjectivity. The cult of Christ is, at rock bottom, anti-cultural, anti-family, anti-topic (being the universalistic screed that it is), appending itself however it could, and can, gain the most followers. I'm certain the hermeneutic atmosphere will be thick with apologia when you Catholics get your first black African Pope...But, then again, the "West," and Europe, are simply *ideas* that can be borne within by anyone "chosen by God", Belloc notwithstanding.

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>>54210920
Motherfucker, I already know this stuff! I have a degree in this stuff!

What I was hoping>>54203051
would say was something like, "Ah yes, my favorite work on the topic of mining is Thosbund's 'Mines and Ironworks of Norway'. Here's a link to chapter 2," or "I've always agreed with Sigmundson's landmark study of village density. He uses some early tax rolls and some archeological records to determine village populations in lower Saxony."

You know. Stuff that's not just the basics. If I wanted the basics, I could find 'em. And I have.

I don't mean to discourage you from helping, but... I'm asking the hard, academic questions.

>>54208418
Jesus preached tolerance of evil (i.e., Turn the other cheek, refusing to answer Pilate's charges, telling Peter to not strike his captors with his sword, surrendering without fighting his captors, etc).

Thor, one of the traditional "pagan" gods of Norse mythology--through example, not by mere words(!)--taught that evil should be defeated (i.e., Thor is the champion of slaying wicked trolls, Thor led legions of warriors to battle against the Sons of Musspell at Ragnarok, etc).

Jesus is best represented by his body, which he sacrificed by refusing to fight. Thor is best represented by his hammer, which he uses to slaughter the enemies of his people.

Which ethos is commendable? Which ethos will save the West? The one that accepts perversion and tolerates evil, or the one that preaches that it should be eradicated?

I submit to you that Christianity is going to be the ruin of the West, just as it was for the Roman Empire (i.e., Christians refused to fight and the Germanic peoples--the followers of Donner/Thor--destroyed Rome).

>>54210967
muh academia

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>>54210993
Yes. That's what I asked for.

>>54211010
modern academia is wrong 90% of the time
just read old books (pre 1930) about the subject and you'll learn a lot more

>>54208418
https://vnnforum.com/showthread.php?t=308083

Christian politicians won't say it, but the Bible is clear: let the invaders in, every last one.

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>>54211070
Yes, certainly, I will take the advice of some phoneposter on /tg/ on this subject. Thank you for enlightening me.

>>54211094
>phoneposter

i don't even own a phone


>MUH ACADEMIA IS RITE

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>>54210985
>I submit to you that Christianity is going to be the ruin of the West, just as it was for the Roman Empire (i.e., Christians refused to fight and the Germanic peoples--the followers of Donner/Thor--destroyed Rome).
Oh yes, as we all know, Christians were infamously pacifistic. That's why the Byzantines totally didn't go on a conquering spree to rebuild the empire, why the Teutonic Knights didn't go about Christianizing Eastern Europe, why Constantinople didn't get blown apart by a crusade, and why the Cathars are still around.

>>54210985
>I submit to you that Christianity is going to be the ruin of the West, just as it was for the Roman Empire (i.e., Christians refused to fight and the Germanic peoples--the followers of Donner/Thor--destroyed Rome).
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HA
Yep, Christians were so pacifist during the medival period.
Not like the crusades never happened, or the byzantine conquests.
Yep, no wars what so ever.

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>>54210946
>educate yourself
>posts a link to some white supremacist forum
>mfw
You nigger, you could at least try to pretend to care about credibility.
Post some actual, credible sources or don't bother posting any sources at all.
Fucking retarded pagans.

>>54210781
>pagans were slaughtered and forced to convert by evil violent Christians
>>54210985
>pagans is the strong idealogy, Christanity is weak and pacfist and would never go to war to further or protect itself

Make up your damn mind you mong

>>54211170
>That's why the Byzantines totally didn't go on a conquering spree to rebuild the empire,

And they failed miserably and lost most of their territories in the Eastern Mediterranean once the Muslim conquests began in the 7th century.

The Byzantine Empire was at the peak of its power in 550 AD, that's ~80 years after the fall of the Western Roman Empire. Then it began to decline. By the time the 1st Crusade happened the Byzantine "Empire" was basically Greece + Turkey.

>why Constantinople didn't get blown apart by a crusade,

???

>>54211486
>Not like the crusades never happened,

They happened after 400 years of Muslim attacks and invasions. And by that time it was too little too late.

Watch

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ilFbbk9jw4

No matter how you try to spin it, these are the facts:

1. Christianity is a Middle Eastern religion which has nothing to do with native European people.

2. Muslims easily wiped out Christian nations in the Middle East.

>or the byzantine conquests.

See the reply above.

>>54211556
i'm not the same guy you're responding to you autist