>he think a guy with a sharp stick should be as powerful as

>>54180890
>he think a guy with a few party tricks should be as powerful as the guy who can kill anyone and anything near effortlessly.

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>>54180890
>he thinks he should be allowed to play as a reality-warper level wizard while the others play weak "sharp stick" users

>>54180890
>he thinks the guy who can bend the very fabric of the reality to his will can kill the guy who can just make null stones affecting 300 miles radius

>he wastes his life playing pretend in his moms basement with his sweaty, smelly friends.

>>54180890
Yes. The reality warper might be able to alter dice probabilties by themselves, and a hundred of them might be able to alter a national election.

One guy with a pointy stick and a decent amount of training could slaughter them all with hardly a problem.

>>54180890
>he thinks mages can bend the fabric of reality to their will

>>54181015
Well, in WoD that would be somewhat accurate.

>>54180964
>>54181003
>>54181015
>you miss your saving throw against a fighter
>you take a bit of damage - most of which can be mitigated

>you miss your saving throw against a wizard
>you get teleported to the lower planes and die instantly

>>54181039
>you miss your saving throw against a wizard, he singes your beard.
>you miss a saving throw against the hercules expy and your spine is shattered, just not ripped out of your body whole.
See, I can be retarded too.

>>54181039
I don't see meme wizards teleporting people to hell, anon. I see them making a handful of subtle changes to things like the political climate.

>>54181057
>let's compare a level 1 wizard to an epic level fighter xD

>>54181072
Oh, but it is fine to make the comparisons with the roles reversed!

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>>54180890
Always felt that Wizards sacrifice themselves to their magic. The magic they were in control of, the less they were actually in control. Their magic is more of a weakness than any against a swordsman.

>>54181078
But he's not.

Unless the 20th level fighter crits you're just... taking a lot of damage.

Meanwhile, a mid-level spellcaster can quite easily kill you outright if you get unlucky with saves.

>>54180890
why cant he tear apart reality with his stick?

>>54180890
>he thinks the stalest, most retarded bait on /tg/ is worth posting

sage mothafucka!

>>54181317
>damage doesn't kill people
Killing people isn't the problem, and never has been.

>>54181467
What's the problem then?

>>54181317
a fighter with action surge and maneuvers can pull of 8 attacks worth 2d6 each, and with it 8 superiority dice worth d12 each
this is 148 damage, or about equal to the average damage of meteor swarm
as an attack instead of a save you can crit, but you can miss instead of guaranteed half damage
it is affected by resistance to non-magical attacks, although even a +1 weapon will negate this weakness

a wizards other level 20 options are foresight, powerful but not game breaking unless combines with other party members like the aforementioned fighter to get more crits, imprisonment which hits one person albeit permanently
and wish, although using the wish outside of its normal bounds, like "i want the lich to be dead" invited the DM to screw you for abusing wish, like the lich remarking he is already dead

the wizard is powerful, but the fighter is not totally without options, as action surge is a very potent ability

also, if forced into encounters that last the whole day, fighters have better use of short rests than wizards, and are less susceptible to using their best abilities on a "Bait" encounter

>>54181504
What are you trying to say anon?

>>54181516
So caster supremacy is a meme according to you?

>>54181099
I don't even know what you're trying to say here, typo or not.

>>54180890
>That wizard from that scary Regular Show Episode

That was from the episode where some wizard fucked up their house greatly right? If so. Stat him?

>>54180993
>wastes his life on 4chan

>>54181544
>So caster supremacy is a meme according to you?

Caster supremacy exists in 3.5. It isn't as big of an issue in 5e. Damage is one of the biggest regards where Wizards don't win out in either case, since killing shit is not a problem the fighter has.

Of course, that's all beside the point. OP is implying that Caster Supremacy is a good thing because logically, a Wizard can only be as powerful as a god and not any weaker, and a fighter can only be as powerful as a fat NEET with a foam sword and no stronger, thus it's fair.

Despite the fact that one could easily make a system where the opposite is true and Fighters are juggling boulders while wizards are struggling to make coins appear behind people's ears.

It's all relative, and there's nothing about bending the fabric of reality that's inherently better. If I had the power to 'bend reality', but the only thing I could do with it was teleport my heart out of my chest, I wouldn't be some all powerful master of the universe, would I?

>>54180890
>he thinks a thinly veiled bait thread will get replies
>it does

>>54181544
in 5e at least, a caster is not going to run circles around the entire party under normal circumstances

casters can be broken with a munchkin mindset, but this requires willful action on the part of the person trying to break the game

casters do have way more utility in out of combat encounters, like wizards knowing fabricate and various divination spells, but as with combat, this is only if the player is seriously going out of his way to maximize their character

and a lot of the shenanigans can be put to an end early by a observant DM
like wish going awry because he wished to be immortal and turned into a jellyfish

on a semi-related note, the most hypothetical damage in a single turn is done by a vengeance paladin

>>54181463
>>54181604
Watch it reach bump limit ;)

>>54180890
>wake up
>thanks christ for the wars of the cross and the inquisition
>sissy wizards and techubermensch lost to retards with pointy sticks

DEUS VULT.
Remember to train your ki!

>>54181568
Found the fat sweaty nerd.

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>>54180890
>he think a guy
>"Wizards are an INT class"

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>>54180890
>he thinks a guy with a magic lighter should be as powerful as the guy who can casually blow up the planet

>>54181662
Doesn't seem like Christianity won anything really since the church has zero influence in people's lives.

Deus kiss my ass more like it.

>>54181724
t. Elizabeth not an actual empress
Go be useful and give giovanni a heir you dumb slut.

>>54180890
>He's never seen Fate/Zero or Fate/StayNight
>When you're so good with a sword the very fabric of reality changes itself to accommodate you.

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>>54180890
>he thinks a guy who can make pretty fireworks should be as powerful as Hercules
Powerlevels are arbitrary. Only DnD does magic without any kind of hardships or consequences.

If DnD used magic as plot device (ritual circles, hard-to-get ingredients that exist solely as reasons for lengthy fetch quests, sacrificing your own limbs and organs to power particularly powerful spells etc.), we wouldn't have this problem of retards thinking that wizards should always be more powerful than everyone else.

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>>54180890
>he thinks a guy that can cast fireworks and polimorph some peasants should be as powerful as the guy who can tank cannonballs, move and fight at supersonic speeds, dash through stone walls and hurl massive boulders

>>54182142
Fucking Fake Assassin was something else. Everyone has bullshit magic powers from all sorts of hacks, like being descended from a God or having a legendary artifact.

That fucker just kept trying to kill a fucking bird until the universe overloaded from him trying to kill a fucking bird and let him break time and space to kill a fucking bird.

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>>54182289
>Fake Assassin
truly best boy of our time
i have such a hard-on for people who transcend the mundane nature of their art into the realm of supernatural purely via honing their skill

>>54180890
Martials are fucking retarded and magic should be in almost ever case by its nature extremely broken. Like some of the most basic shock spells should be more than enough to kill almost literally anything that is alive. You're throwing lightning for fuck's sake.

But whatever.

>>54181601
Nice critical thinking. I hereby set you free from 4chan.

>>54182278
What system are you playing?

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>>54182289
>retarded anime bullshit

>>54182333
>implying that wizards are capable of casting lighting
>not just capable of casting memes

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>>54182356
>Wizard doesn't cast fireball
>Just convinces you he cast fireball.

>>54180890
>Not wanting them both to be ultra-powerful together so they can just team up to fuck up things
Look man, I just want us to get along. Just make my sword into space-fuckyourshit-fire-death-void material so I can jump inside the monster while you bombard it with crazy bullshit

>>54181552
Yeah, I see it now. tl;dr is 'more magic, bigger the sacrifice'.

>>54181601
>OP is implying that Caster Supremacy is a good thing because logically, a Wizard can only be as powerful as a god and not any weaker, and a fighter can only be as powerful as a fat NEET with a foam sword and no stronger

Which only makes sense. Magicians SHOULD be stronger than martials.

>>54182142
>the series where the strongest servant is a caster
>the series where the strongest mage isn't even a servant

lel

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>>54182347
>>retarded anime bullshit
>implying people transcending the mundane nature of their art is solely anime thing

>who is Pygmallion who made a human being by sculpting really hard
>who are Redguards from TES who split atoms by swording really hard
>who are a bunch of people from Norse mythology
shiggy

>>54182472
>who are Redguards from TES who split atoms by swording really hard

Just a minor nitpick
The Panktratosword was an act of magic, not transcending the mundane.

>>54182448
>>the series where the strongest servant is a caster
Doesn't Gil just throw swords at people? Don't know if I'd call him much of a caster.

>>54182512
He's talking about Zero Caster, probably.

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>>54182512

But he's not talking about Gilgamesh.

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>>54182528
>He's talking about Zero Caster, probably.
You mean the guy who loses? He's like the first or second servant to bite it.

>>54182573
Because everyone gangs up on him, duh.

>>54182578
You're not wrong, but it's pretty apparent that Gil isn't giving much of a fuck during the fight. He's the guy cracked a reality marble with a single attack, he could probably handle Caster.

Besides that, Saber could have taken him out either way. The only thing everyone else was there for was to keep Caster from cratering the town.

>>54182594
I'm not arguing with you, I'm just saying that there's no way Medea is the strongest Servant in FS/N, so he was probably talking about Gilles de Rais.

>>54182615
>so he was probably talking about Gilles de Rais.

I was not alluding to good ol' Bluebeard. More so the extended Fate series as a whole.

>>54182578
They gang up on him because he's threatening the secrecy of magic and the lives of millions of people, not because he's strong. Dude was easily the weakest Servant in that war.

>>54182647
>Dude was easily the weakest Servant in that war.
Not THE weakest, but he was down there.

>>54182659
>>54182647
I wouldn't say Gilles was the weakest Servant, to be honest.
He was a late-game Servant, due to how his Noble Phantasm works, which is why he lost - because he got taken out early in the game.

The winning strategy for Gilles was to sit tight somewhere, amassing power from his book and waiting until the other contesters for the Grail take each other out, then use his amassed power to finish off the survivors.

>>54182512
>>54182528
>>54182615
He was probably referring to Solomon and the guy from Tsukihime

>>54182142
>not anima
We quadric fighters.
Casterlets need no apply.

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>>54180890
Did you really get so assblasted about getting blown the fuck out in the last thread that you had to make a new one and hope for a better result?

>>54180890
>He gives his mages exorbant amounts of spells, let's him cast without spell components or modified casting times
>Implying the mage will be bending reality to his/her will at low levels, and only grasping it at mid point
>Thinks that mages aren't affected by environment, people viewing his casting, dangers of loosing his spellbook, or miscasting accidents
>Thinks that people aren't trained to target him for what he can do in a fight, putting him at the most risk.
>Thinks that his poor Armour isn't because he can't wear anything that restricts his hand signs for casting

>>54182824

as long as my old wizard can kick your young warrior's ass into oblivion, i'm happy

>>54182440
it is a fantasy game.
the system is made up from the ground.
how can you possibly argue in favour of skewed class power in a multiplayer-oriented genre?

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Fighters vs. Wizards is like Superman vs. Batman.

Batman wins only if he has enough prep time.

>>54182854

Balance is a myth

>>54182859
>comparing fighters to superman

Please, do fuck off.

>>54182861
sounds like it would fit perfectly into a fantasy RPG then.

>>54182875
the quest to find out why wizards > martials ?

>>54182870
Fighters are Superman. They are people with immediate access to certain limited amount of abilities.
Meanwhile, wizards are Batman. They are pure utility, with access to limitless amount of abilities, but it isn't immediate.

The issue of balancing fighters vs. wizards is the amount of prep time a wizard needs to kick the fighter's ass.

In DnD the amount of prep time required is negligible, and thus wizards are superior to fighters.
In games like Exalted, or games with magic as plot point, the amount of prep time required is impractically long, and thus wizards are inferior to fighters.

>he actually thinks that magic within fantasy game should be able to do anything on spot save utility cantrips or at best, some mediocre combat tricks able to take out random mooks but not really well trained fighters, and that real powerful effects shouldn't require hours-long rituals including rare and hard to get components, with a big chance of inducing lovecraftian madness in your brains when it backfires.

>>54182905
>Exalted
>wizards are inferior to fighters.

That is debateable.
Though the gap is so much thinner.

>>54182881
>the quest to find out why wizards > martials ?
no, balance.

On the same note, i always wonder what kind of people actually want strong mages. i never understood the appeal of being OP by default.

>>54182929

Only OP in comparison to martials

:^)

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>>54180890

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>>54180890
>he's not playing exalted

kek

>>54182937
>>54182929
so whats the appeal of roleplaying a mage in a system that clearly favours it?
whenever we realise that balance is off we just nerf/buff whatever we feel fit.

>>54182961
Wizards still rule at the higher end of cheese in Exalted. At least they're closer in power thanks to annoying anime influenced logic.

>>54182959
never saw that one before

i like it

>>54182983
Not favors it, just stronger than stupid fucking barbarians.

Not every roleplaying game is devoted to combat.

>>54180890
>implying you should be able to bend reality to such an extent on the fly when I could just stab you before you finish.
vancian magic is dumb.

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>>54182959

Are people really this biased over martials

>>54182859
> Fighters vs. Wizards is like Superman vs. Batman.
It also causes the same amount of butthurt as Superman vs. Batman debates and meaningless arguments on both sides, so, yeah, seems legit.

>>54182984
Play anima if you want full on martial cheese and triggering of D&D players.

>>54182991
ok, so lets say you have a system not devoted to combat.
how about we balance out of combat abilities the same way as combat abilities?
why should casting a fireball, something that is impossible in reality, be as easy as something you could actually do, like making a stew or swinging a sword?

>>54183013
people complain that martials are vastly weaker at the same level

then when you suggest that martials should have the same overall utility as a mage, they complain some more

the idea that all characters are somewhat equally useful or fill an important niche is too much of a stretch for them

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>>54182472
>>54182347
Also, Doomguy - the guy who killed demons so hard he became an immortal demon-hating murder machine.

I have a reasonable argument against wizards being overpowered. In real life we have theoretical physicists who have the knowledge to create weapons that would destroy the entire planet in a single blow. but how many of them actually do shit like that? none, because even though they know how to do it they can't because it's really fucking hard, requires loads of personnel and resources that a single man would never have access to. goverments? sure but a lone man locked away in a tower would never accomplish these things. theoretical physicist gets BTFO by some dickhead with a gun.

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It's much easier to justify all this reality warping bullshit on wizards because it's just magic, as opposed to fighters who are always a bit grounded in reality. Even at their best fighters are about on the level of Hercules, which is still a fair step down from the near-literal God a wizard could become and no one would bat an eye. If you un-ground fighters and put them on the same level, you get shit like Tome of Battle or 4e, which everyone agrees is at the very least kind of ridiculous.

But the fact remains that players are allowed to, and would like to, play as both martials and casters. Focusing on balance too much is certainly a thing - you can't put all your attentions into making the system as fair and as equal to everyone as possible - but you also can't allow wizards a free reign while fighters get to just smash things really hard, because guess what? Then it's not fun to be a fighter.

The only solution is to tone back the wizards. Make them rare, bring their power to manageable levels - make their tools less powerful and make it so that no wizard can have them all - and make magic a dangerous thing to wield, like a sword with its hilt replaced with another blade. Even 5e doesn't really do this too much, and so for all the shit it claims on being more balanced than 3.5e, it's only a matter of time before they start to give way more toys to casters than martials, bringing us right back to the starting point all over again.

>>54183090
Yeah except wizards can do that shit with the snap of their fingers

>>54183113
But his point is that they shouldn't. Can't you read?

>>54183090
Again, prep time.
The amount of time required for a theoretical physicist to make a superweapon on his own, without any support, is unfeasibly long.

Which is why ritual magic and magic as plot point (requiring multiple casters to perform the spell, gathering the required ingredients, drawing complicated ritual circles and generally requiring resources and preparation) is the superior kind of magic.

>>54183113
Depends on the system.

>>54183113
only because the setting says so. it's the game designers fault. not an intrinsic fact of RPG reality.

>>54183102
what about super common, but not very powerful wizards?

>>54182342
One I wrote myself

>>54183129
If they were common, they would be forced to work together instead of isolating themselves. And once they do that, it's only a matter of time for them to learn ways to become far more powerful, negating the entire thing - unless you bring up some bullshit about a powerful demon holding back all magic of the plane, or a similar thing.

Wizards being rare is a fairly important part of this.

>>54183151
i always preferred the idea that the party was not special
there are always somewhere in the middle of the road

even a wizard college would have a level 10 wizard as its dean
with most of its staff in the level 1-5 range

>>54183151
>it's only a matter of time for them to learn ways to become far more powerful, negating the entire thing
what if the progression is not exponential or linear or polynomic, but a saturation curve?
That at low levels they rise faster than martials but then taper off
so the further you go the less improvement you get

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>>54183102
This is one of the reasons I like Dungeon Crawl Classics, which I feel deals with this issue almost perfectly.

Wizards in it are pretty powerful, with technically unlimited spells that can sweep out entire encounters all on their own. But they also have small spell lists, need to make tough decisions on what to learn and go through hoops to learn what they want, and then sacrifice a part of themselves in order to get the more powerful results - and even then there's a good chance of backlash. So they don't want to use their magic unless it's really important, and even then odds are good the fighter has to carry them out of the dungeon afterwards.

>>54183130
Okay so nobody cares then.

We're talking about the most popular RPG: D&D where casters cuck martials all the time.

>>54183218
I feel like it could easily be fixed by a perils of the warp type of thing. have a game where magic is volatile and fucking up could seriously harm the caster.

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ANOTHER caster vs martial thread? Time to post my homebrew! This game fixes the problems with caster vs martial imbalance, and does so with a unique OSR style. I promise if you use it in your group, those issues of caster supremacy will melt away.

>>54180890
from a reality point of view one tends to agree, however OP, this is a game system if something is complained about it is generally not fun. easiest way to fix is to incorp magic into martial ala magus. also have a betetr way to stop magic/interrrupt magic/limit casting.

>>54183255
>D&D where casters cuck martials all the time.
No, anon, that only happened in 2 editions that you are familiar with.
Your line is basically how you know that you are either trolling or so stupid you can be safely ignored outright.

>>54183310

>being this much in denial

This is why in good editions of D&D:

1. Spells don't go off until the end of the round.
2. Casting a spell is obvious to everyone around you.
3. If you take any damage from an attack during the round, you get no saves; you just lose the spell.

Let's see your wizard get by without a bodyguard now.

>>54183314
Okay, start from Basic, and begin breaking down how casters are better up to 5e.
I'll wait until you are done to school you.

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>>54183255
Then keep playing the most popular steaming pile of crap as much as you like, if cucking other classes with your pet spellcaster is the only thing you enjoy.

I was just arguing that "casters>martials" is only true in shitty systems, and pretending there's some logical, ontological justification for it in games/settings where magic, monsters and superpowers are a thing, then you're just a blabbering retard.

>>54183328
Sleep.

>>54183255
>>54183314
PLEASE explain to me what purpose caster supremacy has.
just because it is true that casters cuck fighters in a number of systems doesnt mean it is an axiom that casters>martials

>>54182991
This is hilarious given that the fighters, barbarians, etc., were much stronger relative to magic-users in old editions of D&D where the rules made it a very bad idea to get into a fair fight because if you did you could lose half the party.

>>54181072
You made comparisons like that of a level 1 fighter to a wizard capable of casting 7th or 8th level spells. Fuck off.

>>54183328
Dude, he's obviously fishing for (You)s. Are you seriously expecting a serious argument from him?

>>54183332
>keep playing the most popular steaming pile of crap as much as you like
>calling millions of people morons because they play a game

Or maybe you are the contrarian piece of shit here, that thinks D&D isn't the best game on the market right now?

>>54183348
>calling millions of people morons because they play a game
shit is tasty, millions of flies can't be wrong

>>54181039
Having your arm chopped off isnt a "bit of damage which can be mitigated"
Also try casting your incantations when your vocal chords have been bashed in with a morningstar.

>>54183348
>DnD is the best game on the market!
>"Millions of people can't be wrong, even if they never tried anything else in their life besides DnD!"
Here's your (You). I won't give you any more.

>>54183347
ok, new question then: why do people enjoy fishing for (YOU)s? it seems like such a waste of time.

>>54183362
You really think millions of people haven't tried some other game than D&D? What kind of a basement-dwelling conspiracy-theorist retard would have such a low opinion on your common man?

>>54180890
>he thinks every fantasy game is either 3e/PF

>>54181317
Yeah but at least another 20th level fighter can take a lot of damage and survive. A wizard is probably straight up dead.

Also I think clearly a max level wizard should be slightly more powerful than a max level fighter, but only because they should start out much weaker than a respective level fighter.

>>54183348
>Harry Potter has sold millions of copies
>Twilight has sold millions of copies
>Fifty shades of whatever has sold millions of copies
It's almost like millions of people can have shitty taste

>>54183376
Dunno. I mean, yeah, it's addictive - I enjoy the (You)s I get when I'm making a constructive argument - but fishing for (You)s when you have nothing to say is supremely silly.

>>54183379
>What kind of a basement-dwelling conspiracy-theorist retard would have such a low opinion on your common man?
Not being a retard is an exception, not the rule.
>inb4 "hurr durr claiming superiority"
Nah, just statistics. Consider the most average guy possible out of the ones you are aware of and how dumb he is. Now realize that 50% of people you are aware of are dumber than this guy.

>>54183034
I know most people won't care and I'm a different anon but why don't people just not play 3.5/PF? I play AD&D 1e and we don't have problems with wizards being over powered. Just find another game till everyone's happy, or at least the majority.

>>54183453
Because they don't have friends and thus are forced to play with randoms.
And randoms are usually most familiar with 3.5/PF and refuse to try anything else.
>why don't people just not play 3.5/PF

>>54183453
It's a disease called D&D brainrot.
Once it sets, extreme brain damage signs can be observed, much similar to those caused by stockhold syndrome.

>>54183477
>stockhold syndrome
is that what overconfident bankers have?

>>54183471
Fair point. I've got a group where we try different systems till we find something we like, so thankfully I don't need to deal with things like that. Did play PF once when someone in the group wanted to try it. Didn't like it.

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>>54183471
That's true.

3.PF is still by far the most popular system out there.

Luckily I love it since I only play casters.

>>54183524
>3.PF is still by far the most popular system out there.
Say what you want, but Hasbro is brilliant at marketing their shit.

>>54183524
for real?
i thought 5e was the most popular

>>54183551
5e is just mainstream right now: it's what they all talk about, what's being pushed at you, and what brings in the most new people. After all, Hasbro wants to market it pretty heavily.

Give it a few more years and maybe 5e does become more popular than 3.PF. If only because some 3.PF people will start to die out.

>>54183560
honestly the only thing stopping me from fully ditching pathfinder is the lack of official supplements for 5e. I don't want to sift through all the unearthed arcanas looking for the stuff that isn't either broken or useless.

ultimate wizard
>can manipulate reality/laws of physics/fabric of the universe

ultimate warrior
>can hit you really really really really hard

>>54183614
if you wanted to balance martials against casters i think a good comparison would be doctor strange vs thor.

>>54180890
>he thinks a guy playing with his stick should be more powerful than someone who has fought his entire life
It's all in your head

>>54183636
Thor started out as a demigod, though, and he's got a kickass +5 magic weapon.

A better comparison would be Doctor Strange versus Hawkeye.

>>54183648
>implying a level 20 fighter wouldn't have magic weapons.

>>54183614
the ultimate warrior in theory, should be able to hit so hard, that he can walk up to the ultimate wizard, ignore whatever reality bending he has put up, and suplex him so hard that it breaks whatever protection he cast on himself and gets knocked into the third dimension

they are supposedly equal in power, just in different ways, so the ideal ultimate fighter should take whatever lightning the wizard throws, and deal meteor swarm level damage with his sword

>>54183648
>implying a level 20 fighter wouldn't be a demigod

>>54183644
It's also actually written in the rules.

Even a mid level wizard can kill you outright if you fail a single saving throw.

This is your reminder that originally D&D was about playing a 3d6 straight roll and making whatever you can.

Also, lots of high level spells cost actual XP. Making items would cost XP. Scribing scrolls would cost XP. You could lose levels for casting spells.

D&D used to be hardcore, but then the industry started pandering to munchkins like OP.

>>54183692
i found it weird that you would literally forget what you have learned to do certain tasks

that is usually the opposite of what happens when you try to build something, since making a new spell should make you learn not make you ignorant

>>54183551
It is. The people who say it's not are just misinformed.

>>54183707
Focusing the magic burns out parts of your soul that you need to rebuild with time and effort.

Magic isn't Engineering, ya dingus.

>>54183707
I think it has to do with magic consuming your lifeforce or some shit.

>>54183102
>you get shit like Tome of Battle or 4e, which everyone agrees is at the very least kind of ridiculous
But I liked ToB.

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>>54183875
Sure, but it's still a pretty silly book, wouldn't you agree?

>>54183361
After you cut his arm is aap is big enogh he wont be casting shit with his zero MA

>>54183891
Sure, but not any more silly than any other DnD book.

>>54183692
>Also, lots of high level spells cost actual XP. Making items would cost XP. Scribing scrolls would cost XP. You could lose levels for casting spells.
Literally what? I never saw any of this in the earlier versions of D&D.

You might lose CONSTITUTION for casting certain spells, but not experience.

Unless you're just deliberately being retarded and spreading misinformation; just take your (You) and go.

>wizards are magical martials aren't
>it's almost like normal perceptions of power don't apply in a made up context
There is literally no point in this thread
Sage

>>54183925
>Literally what?
Wish, Gate, and any magic item creation in D&D 3.5.

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>>54183265
But DCC does something similar already. Here's a wizard through the campaign.

>>54183614
Ultomate warrior (high fantasy non-D&D)
>can undo actions by pulling back time with will alone
>can move far faster than light
>can lift and throw mountains
>can put himself together after being mutilated
>can punch reality to attack at range
>can alter his shape thanks to total control over his body
>skin so hard he wears armor 24/7
>able to parry spells
>harness his soul to punch people
>stride for days without tiring
>wrestle a river into changing course
>craft magical items
>do summe saults in full plate
>extirpate souls out of people's body with his own hands
And many more! Dont play reddit and normies.

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>>54180890
>>54181039
One of the problems here is that D&D magic is an arbitrary force capable of anything and everything, with no rules. Dimensional shifting and fireballs and walls of force and flight and intangibility and etc all fall under the same general grouping of 'magic.'

Either magic needs to be something you specialize with, or there need to be rules that just push aside the possibility of bullshit like "fail save, get teleported to hell." IMO the magic PCs have access to should NEVER allow them to casually do shit like that; any kind of thing you can to at a whim with magic should be restricted to messing with your dimension and only your dimension.

Pymary from Unsounded is a pretty fucking great magic system in this respect. Wizards are restricted to manipulating their surroundings, and have to be clever, resourceful and fast in order to be dangerous.

Martials should more closely reflect myths or the elder scrolls

There are mythological heroes who can split their own arrows across a mountain range or fire them across a continent. There are kangs that split atoms with their katanas or wrestle gods into submission

It's really a shame that Western-themed trpgs never really use those myths.

>>54184052
To be fair, those mythic talents are hard to simulate.

There's this idea that in mythology that you can be so good at something that you surpass all feasible limits. Beowulf for example is not actually much stronger than a normal man - he's not as strong as Grendel, but he out-wrestles Grendel because his skill at wrestling is just that good.

It's the idea of a person being bestowed with some intangible form of excellence that just lets them do mighty things, and it's hard to quantify because by definition it's them being unquantifiable and doing things that they shouldn't be able to.

Tolkien does this kind of stuff too. Eärendil is not super strong, but he slays a Ancalagon, a dragon the size of a mountain, with a single mighty blow. Why? Because he's virtuous and noble, and the blow was dolorous indeed.

>>54183934
Wizard uncle Ruckus (no relation)

>>54184046
It's not an arbitrary force. It's still governed by rules.

A wizard can't just do whatever he wants, he needs to have learnt and memorised a certain spell, be able to cast it depending on the components etc...

The only silly thing about D&D magic was Greater Wish. At that point you might as well just ascend to godhood.

>>54184133
It has arbitrary rules in regards to what magic itself can do.

There are simply no limits. A wizard's can essentially do anything. He can learn spells that do anything; there's no cap on what magic, or at least the magic that single man is capable of performing at a whim, can accomplish. If a wizard wants a spell that can kill a person with a glance and a word, he can have it. If he wants flight or dimensional travel or teleportation or polymorphing or enhancing his strength he can have those too. He doesn't have to specialize in any way and his powers are dependent on no variables other than whether he's learned those spells and if he's rested.

Wizards just shouldn't be able to do all this crazy shit at once if they're going to be in the same party as standard "hits things okay" fighters. At the very least, not until very high level. Stuff like breaching dimensional walls should be like 17th level, not 5th.

>>54182472
>Pygmalion
Anime waifu bullshit
>Redguards
Literally japs with katanas folded mirrion times who nuke themselfs but black
>vague mention of a bunch of people

Your point?

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>>54184046
Everything about Unsounded is wonderful, but pymary is particularly wonderful.

I genuinely believe Unsounded's setting is the best fantasy world I've seen in fiction in... a decade, probably? Maybe longer. It certainly beats the fuck out of every single D&D setting to ever exist, from Eberron to Greyhawk.

>>54183392
>Yeah but at least another 20th level fighter can take a lot of damage and survive.
A wizard can cast spells that outright make him immune to certain forms of damage or automatically avoid an incoming attack.

Wizard a batman.
They can fuck you up good unprepared, and literally kill gods with prep time.

And since the spell contingency exist, no wizard should be out of prep time.

>>54183379
>such a low opinion on your common man
The common man scores more than one full standard deviation below the average for my profession in rigorous measures of intelligence. Half of them are even dumber than that.

>>54183931
Not him but the XP costs to cast those spells in 3.5 were peanuts compared to the amount of XP you'd receive from one encounter. Even then, the boons you'd receive from making certain magic items were also worth it in the end because they help you to survive in the long run.

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Magic is magic - it's supernatural, entirely out of this world, and by its definition has no limits. Any limitation it could have is arbitrary. You can do anything at all with magic and, barring balance considerations, no one will think it's in any way out of place.

Martials and their power are far more bound: we have swords and swordsmen, we know how they're supposed to work and what they can do, and where their limitations go. If you break those up, there's going to be outcry of "anime bullshit".

So what to do? Either you break up those limitations anyway, you impose even more arbitrary restrictions on magic, or you just outright forbid players from being wizards altogether and keep them as powerful quest givers and antagonists.

>>54184274
therorycraft=/=actual play.

You ever wonder why there are so many "I am playign a wizard, how do I do X successfully?" Because people who read all the crap /tg/ spouts try and use it in game, and realize that it doesn't actually work the way /tg/ says it should work.

Every piece of 'wizards break game' theorycraft is only ever backed up with anecdotal evidence that is no more proof than the anecdotal evidence that people don't have those issues with wizards.

>>54184317
most settings have rules that govern magic. It's like extra laws of physics and types of energy that don't exist in real life. Vancian magic does not have to be the standard that all rpgs abide by.

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>>54184317
i say breaking limitations on fighters is the best solution for all

arbitrary limitations are immersion killing
and not being able to play a wizard is not fun

better to make fighters capable of throwing mountains or bending steel is pretty par for the course for a level 20 PC

if a wizard can break physics with magic, then a fighter can break physics with muscle

The concept of "Anime bullshit" is basically all that's keeping epic rangers from firing Pashupatastras daily

>>54184344
I wasn't even talking about Vancian magic specifically: it too has limitations, after all, albeit entirely unsatisfactory ones.

I'm just saying that since magic doesn't exist in our world, you can make it do anything whatsoever and no one will bat an eye.

>>54183182
The word you're looking for is "logarithmic".

>>54184344
I'd say Rifts handles it pretty well.

>>54184332
In actual 3.5 play druid and cleric meme on everyone

>>54184046
That's cool and poetic and all... but honestly, Unsounded magic is pretty much just as unbounded, vague and arbitrary.

Dungeon Crawl Classics is a good example of how this isn't always true. The casters are random number god's bitches. They roll on a percentile dice table every time they learn a spell and can get awful shit like "every time you cast this someone you know dies", besides the risk of furthering their mutation into a lump of dogshit any time they cast at all. Meanwhile, the martials are fairly RNG-independent (as much as you can be on that game) besides their Mighty Deed of Arms feature which gives them carte blanche to do freeform combat bullshit as long as they roll a 3 or higher on a die that gets bigger as they level up.

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Personally, I would take the approach of giving martials whatever they need to stay relevant, and leaving the fluff up to the players and DM.

If the idea of people who achieve superhuman heights just through skill and training isn't something the DM wants in their setting, they could put their own twist on it. Maybe all "fighters" are descendents of ancient kings like the dunedain, or maybe they've been subjected to alchemical experiments. Or they could even say fighters are just magic-users who turn their magic inward. If they don't mind they can stick with the traditional fluff or leave it up to the player. Just as long as the mechanics aren't being held back by one particular interpretation.

>>54184360
>>54184360
Honestly, this is exactly the reason why I made a "superhero systems run high fantasy better than high fantasy systems" thread a little while back.

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>>54182905

It's cute when normies think they know shit about comics

>>54184517
> Nu
gtfo

>>54184517
I hope you realize how incredibly hard you missed the point of that analogy

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>>54184360
That isn't going to solve the issue that casters are simply more versatile than martials

Martials are all brawn. Even if we say that fighters can lift mountains, how useful is that really compared to being able to teleport, stop time, see the future, turn invisible, commune with deities, open a portal to another plane, summon archangels etc...

At the end of the day all martials can do is just hit people really really hard.

>>54180890
>Not being able to punch the very fabric of reality to your will
Get back in the locker before I wedgie you, Neeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeerd!

>>54184636
I don't know man I see plenty of utility in being strong enough to MOVE A FUCKING MOUNTAIN. In most sane systems, there are also heavy limitations to the sort of thing you mention. For example, in 5e Time Stop is a 9th level spell and just gives you 1d4 rounds

>>54184725
The thing is that a caster can already move mountains and so much more.

Having access to spells means that casters are always going to be more versatile (though not necessarily more powerful) than martials.

>>54184636
Whats preventing martials from moving really REALLY fast? Which is broken all on its own.
Being able to casually butcher scores of archangels on their own.
There's more to just being a hero equivalent to mythology than just standing in one place and swinging a weapon.

And being able to see the future shouldn't be in the realm of the wizard, it should be in the wheelhouse of the GM and his seers.
And why should one class be able to commune with deities? Deities should either be calling you up or its a thing the PCs can all do through the classical methods.

>>54184804
Only because you are wanking out the mage so much while going out of your way to hamper the non-mage.

The person making such a system is the one at fault. In the end have you tried not playing D&D?

>>54184374
not really
A logarithmic curve starts out at the highest slope and then becomes more and more flat
a saturation curve starts flat, rises exponentially and then goes into a logarithmic curve

so at the beginning a wizard and a martial start out the same
Fighter starts linearly and gains power while the wizard gains it more slowly
Break-point where they are equal in power
Fighter still just increases power linearly, wizard gains it far faster but begins to slow down
End point has them be equally powerful again

That at least sounds pretty nice, though I don't really know how to implement such a progression

>>54184116
Its not hard at all, you just need to use a better system, something that doesn't work by 'classes'.

>>54184823
So you want martials to be able to do everything that casters can do?

>>54184804
>a caster can already move mountains
In 5e? With Wish, maybe. 33% chance of not being able to use it ever again every time you cast it, you're out of commission for the rest of the day and have 3 str for 2d4 days

>>54184855
I play D&D. Most people play D&D. I'm talking about D&D not some obscure system where casters are glorified fortune tellers and martials are Conan.

In D&D, casters are always going to be more versatile. I don't see how you can fix that without just giving the martial magical items that have spell-like effects.

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You can't cast a spell quicker than the speed of a bullet.

>>54184904
Okay so casters can move mountains (albeit with a Wish) while martials can't.

What exactly can martials do that casters can't? Besides hit things really hard of course.

>>54184946
Not having to rest to use the reality-shaking powers that they don't have.

>>54183614
Sun Wukong is what happens when you get the ultimate warrior.

>>54184946
The point is that casters, although absolutely very versatile and able to pull some crazy stunts, can't do those things constantly or consistently, and can't buff themselves into temporary godhood like they could in 3.PF because most buffs require concentration

>>54183102
>Even at their best fighters are about on the level of Hercules
>guy who at one point holds up the heavens
They're not even close.

>>54184944
He can probably cast it faster than it takes for US soldiers to distinguish friend from foe, cease firing on their own positions, inquire to the availability of fast air to do their job for them and then eventually engage the wizard.

>>54184967
So nothing then.

>>54185000
Sure, I agree that casters and martials are more or less balanced in 5e in terms of power.

I just don't understand why some people complain that martials aren't as versatile as casters. That will never happen.

>>54185009
Nah you just go checkmate'd bub

Here's how you beat an epic level wizard: have a guy with a .45 hide in his bedroom and when the wizard teleports in just run up on him and blast him in the head.

There, all done. He can't recite or think faster than the speed of sound so you don't have to worry about a spell being cast and since you ambushed him he won't have any kind of defensive barriers up

CASTERS BTFO'D ETERNALLY

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>>54184636
To be honest that's one of the easiest things to fix. Split the wizard into a dozen different classes with a more focused spell list. It's pretty intuitive that if magic is difficult then wizards would specialize a lot.

In fact, you could even turn the tables. A rogue who is a master of many skills is much more versatile than a wizard who controls fire and nothing else, even if the fire wizard would burn the rogue to a cinder in a fight.

I don't think you need to go that far, though. Ultimately, the basis of the wizard in D&D and related games has always been "powerful, BUT". If they are too powerful you just adjust the BUT portion. Rachet up the cost of spellcasting. The fighter doesn't need to move mountains, it should just play fast and loose with realism. They're always going to be combat-focused because that's the basis of the "fighter". On the other hand, in battle they should be the star of the show.

>>54185009
>>54184944
>>54185061
Or he could just a contingency spell for whenever someone takes aim or shoots at him.

>>54183925
You're right. I was mixing up 3.5 and AD&D.

The real limit for spellcasting in AD&D was rare and expensive material components that you would have to actually track down manually if your DM wasn't a lazy bitch about stuff like that.

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>>54180890
>Thinks he's immune to said pointy stick
>Stick man is wearing flame retardant materials

>>54185061
Don't even need the gun, wizards aren't exactly the most streetwise individuals.

>>54184925
D&D is a cancer on tabletop gaming, its not a good system but it got a grip on the hobby by being so many peoples first

>>54185070
What if more than one person takes aim at once?

there's also no reason being a wizard should make your body better in any way so enjoy that 4 health, it's all you're getting

>>54185065
>On the other hand, in battle they should be the star of the show.
I don't think any one character should be the "star of the show" since D&D is a very combat focused game most of the time.

>>54185009
Shut up

>>54185111
Hit points =/= meat points.

>>54185121
It used to not be.

Back before 3rd edition, combat was just one aspect of exploration and treasure hunting. Fighters handled it the best, thieves dealt with traps and locks and scouting, while clerics and wizards had a whole bag of one-use tricks each.

3rd edition dropped the ball and it hasn't picked it up since.

>>54180890
>Realizes his component pouch just tore open
>Book cut in half
>Even without a stick he's gonna snap your neck
>Hope those buffs work in the antimagic field around his ring
>OH FUCK

>>54185099
Nobody cares about your opinions on what constitute a good system.

D&D is what most people play. It's easy to get a group going and it's FUN.

>>54185107
Why would that make a difference? The contingency spell takes effect as soon as anyone trains their weapon on him.

>>54185128
Depends on the system. In 4th they literally are 50% plot armor, 50% meat points.

>>54184573

Nice try batfag, we're going to gas you all when the day comes.

>>54185128
sure, but there's absolutely no way a wizard should get any extra hit points
a wizard without his spells should just be a lv 1 commoner (not even a lv 2 because at least they're decent at being a commoner)
if the system makes it explicitly spells are defined things there's no passive magical energies that should be making the wizard more capable of being in the way of a dragon's claws than a commoner

oh while we're at it: wizards don't get any increases in saves other than will, and don't get increased BAB at all

Is it best to just ignore mapping in an online game?

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>1st level fighter with plate armor
>20 AC, enemies attack at about +5
>can move 30 feet each turn
>can climb and swim at 15 feet each turn
>can jump 6 feet in the air
>can lift 480 lb max
>can swing sword once per round

>20th level fighter
>20 AC, enemies attack at about +17
>can move 30 feet each turn
>can climb and swim at 15 feet each turn
>can jump 8 feet in the air
>can lift 600 lb max
>can swing sword four times per round

>1st level wizard
>firebolt, burning hands, sleep, mage armor, shield
>20th level wizard
>an endless list of overwhelming god powers

>>54185192
So what does the level 2 commoner do to get any better saves, hit points, or eventually attack bonus? He doesn't even go out to delve in dungeons.

>>54185200
Wrong thread, sorry

>>54185209
>science fantasy
You mean space fantasy, right?

>>54185152
High level wizards were pretty fucking insane in 2E IIRC.

Also, 4E is by far the most combat-centric edition.

At the end of the day I'd say that it's up to the DM to ensure that everyone gets a chance to shine and enjoy themselves.

Give the thief some locks to pick, guards to pickpocket, traps to disarm. Give the wizard scrolls to decifer. Give the fighter enemies to smash.

If the wizard is outshining everyone in combat, maybe thrown in some magic resistant enemies so that the martials in the group can shine.

>>54184880
D&D martials while extremely tough are not even on par with real people when it comes to combat. There is multiple reasons for that but let's make a couple of examples:

- A level 6 martial, who is supposedly a veteran of many battles and either extremely talented or trains from his youth, can attack 2 times in 6 seconds. Average fighters in real world can throw 3-5 attacks in this time in any combination of feints, trips, overruns and so on.

- To kill someone you need to hack him multiple times, or hope for a really unlikely crit. In real world one attack that slipped through defenses either debilitates or completely puts your enemy out of the fight. Heavy armor can change this but then you start using things like poleaxes. Anyone similar to wizard in normal clothing will be cut to pieces within a span of what in D&D will be considered first round or maybe even surprise round.

- People have four limbs and though it is hard to use them all precisely there is nothing special in knocking a chair at your enemy, hacking him two times in a head and then making a strike with an armored elbow into the side of his temple. Things that in D&D take a shitload of feats in real world are available to anyone who knows how to beat people on pretty mediocre level.

________________________

A real world martial in D&D will have an analogue to Save or Die/Stun being thrown multiple times per round and ability to use furniture for attacks and defense - for example blocking a fireball with a table.

>>54182905
>>Limited

The entire idea is that Superman has no limits. He's a deity and no amount of prep time would allow Batman to ever fucking win against a guy who can incinerate him and the goddamn planet from space.

Bear in mind, in no canon story did Batman ever defeat Superman, while Superman broke Batman on numerous occassions. At best, Batman "slowed" him down. And that Frank Miller faggotry is as close as he's ever gonna get.

If you want a comparison in DnD, Batman is a rogue with some nifty skill tricks and alchemical items, while Superman is a divine metamagic cleric who doesn't give a fuck.

>>54185249
Your first point is faulty. The fighter can attack many more times, but it's all totaled as a small number of attacks: a single "hit" could in fact constitute three or four small scratches.

It's been that way since the beginning of the game, when turns used to last full minutes.

>>54185213
being a commoner is quite the physical activity that increases your body
remember this commoner commoned enough to actually gain a level, it isn't your average commoner, it's the guy who survived a wolf attack that one time

>>54185278
Adventuring wizards survive many wolf attacks in their careers.

>>54184360

I love that

you do legendary feat you become legendary

Godlike abilties come form doing Godlike feats

I like to pair it with the Weapons of Legacy book

you use your sword to cleave through rock then metal and at the end

anything

or you know whatever you like for a weapon I wouldn't force you to use a sword to cut stuff

>>54185299
a lv 1 wizard surviving a wolf attack does so by casting a spell
he gets better at casting spells which presented by him gaining a wizard level
the commoner that survived the occasional wolf attack did so by running away, climbing a tree, fighting it off with his pitchfork or plain ol' actually manage to get through a wolf gnawing on your arm

but sure if you want your wizard to get the bonuses of that level in commoner, he's free to take a level in commoner but that level in wizard only makes you better at wizard things

>>54185329
isn't the fact that they can actually do some of these things the reason folks actually disliked weeaboo fightan magic?

>>54185344
I mean you can put it however you like, but both of those feats sound about the same to me: go into a potentially dangerous situation, survive by your own wits and abilities.

Wizard deserves to grow tougher just as much as the commoner does.

>>54185275
It makes my point stronger actually.

Because if even in 3-4 attacks they can do just a scratch they are not fighters. They are fucking stone skinned kittens. Because normal fighter even without weapons would transform any pansy in a robe into a bloody smear on the floor.

>>54185376
and fighters deserve to be as powerful and versatile as a wizard their own level given they survived the exact same things as well
yet here we are

it's all arbitrary yet when it's arbitrarily not in favor of the wizard, it's a problem

>>54184367

it's a shame really

Caladbolg is now anime apparently

>>54185376
This is why I prefer Shadowrun...

Though it's honestly too bad that game publishers have gone for the flowery overproduced books. I'd be okay with paying for color art, but the over-designed crap that they are pushing all across the market is ugly and tacky so I generally avoid giving them money for it.

>>54185234
>Also, 4E is by far the most combat-centric edition.
As opposed to the non-combat-centric previous editions? Skills have always been GM fiat houseruling nonsense.

>>54185422
A few petty hit points, fortitude/reflex bonuses, and attack bonuses don't even touch the reason to why wizards are so powerful. You could remove them all and all you'd manage to do would be to make the game less consistent.

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>he thinks some parlor tricks can go up against a man who can punch you into 8 different planes of existence before you hit the ground.

>>54185508
it would force a wizard to spend a significantly larger amount of spells to self-preservation reducing their versatility

>>54185125
No.

>>54184360
Well I've saved this picture.

>>54184232
Pygmalion is Greek you fucking imbecile. Not to mention a guy as well so it would be husbando but it still couldn't be anime.

>>54185375

I think people thought it was a little too magical for their taste

for some reason people are fine with Merlin but not Heracules even though both aren't completely human

>>54184360
Play anima if you want bullshit martials with bullshit wizards with bullshit psionic and bullshit crafting.

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>>54180890
A good warrior usually becomes a good king, or a general. Thus, his combat/tactical abilities carry over to a higher degree, where yes, he very well may be as powerful as a wizard. Actually, probably more powerful.

>>54185517
Is that a monk? If yes, and a 3.5 monk, he won't punch anything, ever.

>>54184636
Except you can make their bullshit abilities be useful for secondary crap, see anima's ki
>You can parry spells, fireballs, etc... Namely intangible things
>You also can do things like false death, sense ki (think of this as a life-radar that also detects very powerful undead), sense auras, teleport, fly, etc... once you're set with your basics (about, 70-90MK (hit energy line which is 20, maybe also ability to spend more fatigue per turn and if you feel fancy, sense ki, plus the 40p unlock) you can go crazy with it
>Still have the same or more points for secondaries since a lot of martial classes come with "free" points in secondaries per level, plus better HP on a system where people are wet tissue, specially casters

>>54185375
The reason why 3.5aboos loathe anything they deem "Weebshit" (which is, "A non-caster ability is more than "Me walk to enemy, me hit enemy in face with normal attack") is because they've breed into thinking anything but fullattack spam isn't true fantasy and it's weebshit, when the fucking system is made for high fantasy, so it makes zero fucking sense that in a high fantasy setting only some high-danger people have access to supernatural, when the supernatural is everywhere. It's like playing a GURPS game at TL10 and the DM decides that since you took "sword" your TL is now 3.

>>54185517
Yes. This.

The feats for combat should not give basic shit like ability to make combat manoeuvrers. Instead they should give abilities that are beyond what normal people can do. All normal attacks and moves should be tied to equipment and environment. You have shield? You can block area attacks. You have a weapon with with hook (axe) or simply long and handy (spear, staff)? You can trip without any penalties. There is a chair or table adjacent to you? You can either kick it at the enemy to distract him or use it as cover against some attack on the enemy turn. And so on.

Character in heavy armor should not just get +X to AC. It should completely change his fighting style and have its advantages and drawbacks (say being unable to dodge giant's club).

And then, on top of that, you throw martial arts, secret techniques, special training, divine bloodlines and other things.

>>54185768
"dat's weebshit >:(!!"
t. D&D players and 99% of /tg/'s userbase.

>>54185752
There is a couple of builds that work. Though the most effective one are 2 levels of monk plus psionic class with Tashalatora feat.

But he could also be a swordsage. It's hard to tell until you get punched in the face. And if he is a swordsage it could be the last thing you'll ever feel in this life.

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>>54185768
It's why I love monks. They are so versatile and can often match other classes when it comes to strategy.

>>54184988
But he has spells out the ass.

>>54185752
>Monk
That's a Tao if you're lucky. Exalt if you're unlucky.

>>54181601
>It isn't as big of an issue in 5e.
I disagree.
Wizards can become immortal with Clone, make Demiplane, destroy buildings, teleport, spy everyone, etc.

The problem was always utility spells. The wizard still get so much more than every martials that you can do way more with them than with a fighter.

>>54185731

not in dnd he's not

his skill points are so low he can barely tie his shoes let alone lead an army

and unless you roll and roll really well your Int, Wis and Cha are shit

Fighters make terrible leaders in dnd

you'd be better with a bard

>>>54180890
These 'wizards' think they can make the world dance to their whim if they kill enough maidens. Take note, squire, this is why witchcraft is banned.
Summoning imps. Ha! This is reality.

>>54185793
I just want a knight in shining armor. The one could do like in stories - blocking fire breath with his shield, cutting enemy heads while running through their midst with a strike and being overall a cool dude.

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>>54185928
>he plays stupid fighters

All leaders of nations in Medieval or Pseudo-Medieval societies are Warriors for a reason. Wizards are just autists on the edges of society, tucked away in their irrelevant studies, usually causing a problem a group of warriors has to fix.

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You people are fucking morons.

Casters SHOULD be more powerful than martials.
There can still be balance, but why should the sword match the sorcerer?

Have some decency and some common fuckin' sense, anons.

>>54185993
If you want a leader type fighter you are actually better with barbarian or say ranger or almost any other martial class but not actually Fighter.

>>54185959
Then don't play D&D post AD&D.

Play AD&D, rolemaster, song of swords, GURPS even fucking weeb (actual weeb) anima does that concept better.

>>54186030
Than they should have different number of levels and different XP progression.

Like cram all 20 martial levels in 10 and cut the needed XP to level up in half. At least this way you will give more or less reasonable expectations to new players.

>>54186065
Then why have levels?

Different progression is a shit idea for classes, on the basis of levels being a quick way to look at "power" so to speak.

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>>54186040
>he cares about class mechanics
Why are you so boring anon?

>>54186051
I know. I like GURPS for this.

It's just still hurts - D&D 3.5 was my first system.

>>54186089
Well yeah. You could cram all 20 levels of fighter in one and still will be pretty fair in the long run. You are right.

>>54185993

I don't want or like to play stupid fighters but like I said unless you roll and roll well your fighter will have dump stats

Fighters "Need" high Con and Str to do their job so point buy fucks them over

and Leaders need social skills or their fucked but they never have the point to really invest those skills

>>54186093
Because I literally played a warrior who everyone thought was a nice guy and pretty good second in command. But actually he was a barbarian.

>>54186095
It's fine, 3.5 is good for the thing it actually became.

A caster supremacy minmax hell. I mean, it's fun to play just to see the stupid shit my players come with for a oneshot, it sucks once you play other shit.

Myself I've getting into gurps for a less clowny system when it comes to rolls, if I want high fantasy clown games I'd just play anima, since at least everyone is more or less good at his thing.

All the retards who actually believe that whole "well casters should be better because he has this spell that says he can fucking rewrite time"
Have you fucking people ever had a dm that did not just spout the players hand book at you?
Ever had them make something up?
What the fuck do you think happens when a fighter shifts from level 1 to level 2 huh?
Do you think he just gets healthier and puts a bit more weight on his sword
No its him getting stronger and stronger
A wizard at 20th level can ass fuck time and call down metors
A fighter at 20th level is the strongest man alive (discounting the fact there may be a barbarian at 20th level) and has untold mastery with a blade
just because the matrial classes lack flavor text each and every fucking level to show you what happens doesn't mean you get to be lazy and not make up for it

>>54186172
>A wizard at 20th level can ass fuck time and call down metors
>A fighter at 20th level is the strongest man alive and has untold mastery with a blade

So the wizard is still supreme then?

>>54186172
>What does "untold mastery with the blade" mean?
>he can hit pretty much as good, maybe a little bit better, than a real life swords man.

>>54186172
This flavour text is unsupported by the system. You can call your fighter the best all you want. But then comes the the wizard or a "real" martial like warblade and shit all over your character abilities. And suddenly he understands that he wasted his life and now he can't do anything and is at best a meatshield or even worse - just meat in the meatgrinder.

>>54186030
It's a fool's errand. Some people here sincerely believe that martials should be the equals of wizards.

It's hilarious, yet sad. Bias is the death of reason.

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>>54186142
>turning Let's Pretend for Adults into a math game
you're all boring and unfun people

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>>54180890
>ITT
>guys wizards are so OP, they are literally gods guys. Wizard master race, martial peasants amirite guys.

Either this is another example of /tg/ never having played dnd or summer being summer.

>>54186297

The irony here is that you probably haven't touched DnD in your entire life to make such a bold and baseless comment.

Wizard supremacy is a meme based on truth.

>>54185668
He meant Pygmalion was a waifufag. Which he was.

>>54186268

just because I don't pretend the rules don't exist and what they mean for Fighters?

do I change the rules or make up my own, yeah of couse I do

but we're talking about the rules for a game and what that means for some classes so yeah I bring up that Fighters get fucked over

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Hey this seems a good a thread as any to ask
Anyone have that bait picture where the fish is biting it anyways? Not this one, theres some other one

>>54185928
Pre-3e yes he is. That was literally the intended end game for AD&D fighters, building their own keep and raising an army

>>54186406
>not letting a player play the character he wants in a role playing game because he can't roll high enough

please stop playing D&D.

>>54186334
>no u
Whatever you want to believe, summerfag.

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>>54186486
This one?

>>54186496
What strange fictional edition do you speak of, anon? In these thread, only 3.PF is reality. Everything else is a fever dream.

>>54186551
Yes that one, thank you anon

>>54186523

Is that all you could come up with?

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>>54186613
It's the same asshole that comes into every D&D=garbage troll thread to argue D&D is actually the best roleplaying game. That's basically his response whenever this notion is challenged.

Pay him no heed.

>>54184438
Not really. It has pretty clear limits that make sense in the context of the lore.

It works by moving around the traits of physical forces and substances in your vicinity, through interfacing with the 'code' that dictates how all this stuff should act. It can't create anything from nothing, it can't produce materials and effects that have no roots in the spellcasters' surroundings, and it has no ability to do things like open extradimensional portals or summon abstract forces like 'negative energy' or 'pure death energy' or the like.

A spellcaster in Unsounded can only manipulate materials and forces that he knows the words in Tainish for, even if he doesn't have to speak them to cast, and interfaces by the khert - the 'code' - or reality through two metaphyisical ports that many humans have in their palms (this is why spellcasters in Unsounded can 'catch' each other's spells, also why Two-Toes and Senet Beasts can't do pymary; they don't have those ports).

Pymary has way more limits than undefined D&D magic. Just the fact that casters can't create something from nothing is a big one.

>>54186496

I know and love that Anon but everyone bring up 3.5 so that's the one I talk about

>>54186500

I just said I change things so that doesn't happen anon

I LIKE FIGHTERS THAT CAN DO SHIT I JUST DON'T PRETEND I AM NOT HOUSERULING THINGS WHEN I DO SO!

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>>54182333
>You're throwing lightning for fuck's sake.

>>54186613
You want a grand retort for your halfassed response? Wow, you are needy. Enjoy your you.
>>54186672
Or I could be just saying that /tg/ believes in a lot of bullshit theorycrafting.
>inb4 but these may mays are based on truth
I bet you believe in Pun-pun to.

>>54186901
Is that the name of an attack or lyrics to a song playing in a dramatic moment?

>>54187168
second one

>>54186030
>but why should the sword match the sorcerer?
Why not?

The best settings make everyone the guy with a sharp stick and limit magic to highly specific lengthy rituals and costly object-imbuing.

>>54188031
>limit magic to highly specific lengthy rituals

Revolting

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>"My level 20 wizard can rewrite time, destroy entire armies with just a thought and create his own planes full of women that want to suck his cock!"
>"You want a level 20 martial to be able to cut a mountain in half? Get that weebshit mary sue out of here!"

>>54188166
Salem is cute! CUTE!

>>54180890
Why is your group playing at such high levels that you can rewrite reality? Yes, wizards are supposed to get exponentially stronger while fighters are supposed to get linearly stronger. The thing is though, half of the concept of a wizard is a SEEKER of knowledge and power. If you already have it all what's the fucking point. Usurp god and end the game so we can start over please.

>>54186030
>There can be balance
>But make one option, the option I like, exclusively stronger than the other options
Do you have your head that far up your own ass naturally, or did you cast a spell to put it there?

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>get a higher initiative as a fighter
>hit the wizard several times in one turn
>he dies because he has shit health

martials always win in the end

>>54180890
>he think a guy should be able to play a guy who can bend the very fabric of the reality to his will

>>54180890
>he thinks the guy with a sharp stick is just a guy with a sharp stick

>>54188349
>combat is about everything

Do you wank your dick this hard as well?

>>54188351
>higher initiative
>attacks wizard
>dies because of contingency spell

:^)

>>54188412
>Implying casters don't have spells that make them better party faces than the bard

>>54188412
Because fighters are supposedly about combat but instead of ruling it and using it as their shtick they actually suck at combat. It's not enough to scratch enemy HP. Optimised fighter chargers capable of downing an enemy per round are the only ones who at least scrape the bar of adequate combat abilities needed for play after around level 10.

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Casters > Martials

Keep cryin' babies

>>54188478
As usual, no one here knows how Challenge Rating works. You're not just supposed to throw an endless horde of CR10 foes against LV10 party.

>>54188511
Than try to fight something more intelligent than an ooze using it's abilities at least half-decently and come back after that. Wizards could at least retreat if they got in an ambush.

>>54188550
As a fighter, you have your own assets and abilities to use at least half-decently.

>>54185009
>I'm a civilian with no idea what I'm talking about and get butthurt over US servicemen being hero worshiped and having all their necessities taken care of and paid for

I wonder if you're a eurocuck or just a bitch. If it's the latter, thanks for giving me your tax dollars to workout and fuck 18 year olds with daddy issues lol

>>54181672
>flings shit on the internet
>gets shit flung back at him
>Ha, nice job proving my point, smelly nerd.

>>54188611
>having all their necessities taken care of and paid for
So long as they're in the service, at any rate. After that it's to the bin.

Like the fucking pro-life movement dropping the actual born children like hot potatoes.

>>54188508
Only because the people who design them are almost as incompetent as you are.

>>54188708
>implying having martials be on the same level as wizards wouldn't be incompetent game design

You need to ditch that bias

Every second I spend on this damned site I see more arguments that Hobbes was right.

>>54188166
>lvl 20
>Rewrite time
I recall an article that literally retconned the shit out of time travel in 3.5 limiting it to special NPCs gifted the power, people still have the like of time stop, but pulling shit like Raistlin, or anything that doesn't involve a nether scroll is top garbage in the setting now.

>>54188732
But that's an example of competent game design.

>>54185159
>Martialfag has to invent whiteroom theory crafting in order to win.
>Doesn't even realize that the Martial is fucking themselves over since the bulk of their combat effectiveness is coming from their magic items.
I swear, you cucks crack me up every time.

>>54188852
That's irrelevant to the main point; that most casterfags are hypocritical powergamers that don't want to share the spotlight

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>>54188732
Imagine you're playing an FPS. On starting, the game offers you two choices, a rifle and a shotgun. Enjoying the idea of close-range power and satisfying pump action, you choose the shotgun. When you fire the gun, however, you realize that it's actually a very elaborate bubble wand. It deals no damage and is very clearly useless. You die, restart, and choose the rifle. At that point you wonder why the game offered you the choice if one option was so pointless.

That is what is poor game design. It's not about how equally useful casters and martials are, but rather it's presenting options as equal when in reality some of the options are completely useless compared to the rest. Your game can be as much of a caster wank as you want, but at that point martials shouldn't even be an option. They should not be in the rulebook in the same section as the casters, or in the rulebook at all. Because ultimately, what is the point of having them as an option if they're useless?

>>54189137
How are casterfags hypocritical?

It's not our fault that martials suck shit at everything but the most irrelevant parts of the game yet believe that they should be on equal footing with individuals who can do practically anything they want thanks to spells/scrolls/wands/etc.

If anything, you people are the hypocrites here because rather than either a) playing a game that suits your weeb tastes or b) Just going with a more melee focused caster like Clerics, Druids, etc; you'd rather try and show how martials are secretly the best in situations where the mage is somehow incapacitated, without any spells, without any magical foci to speak of, and always with the exact loadout to hard-counter whatever the mage could theorhetically throw at you without realizing the irony of how it still boils down to magic vs. magic rather than magic vs. brawn.

Everyone that says casters should be superior to martials should be forced to roll up a martial in their next game, play with a powergamed caster and see how they like being relegated to doing nothing and being less