/CofD/ & /wodg/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness

Gentlemen, how do we balance guns to melee? It's silly that a casual hunter usually has the same dice pool to hit as a master swordsman in cofd thanks to defense. And damage is no higher for melee to even compensate for this risk. A change is needed in some form in order to have more diverse builds for Hunters

I am planning on running a Vampire 20 the Dark ages game set in Rome during 1080 for years before the sack of Rome by the Normans.

Planning on letting the PC's set up their power base for the first 4 years in game, then have them have to deal with the sack and try and maintain their domains in its aftermath.

This would be my first Wod campaign o what advice might you have?
Would this work well?

>>54154127

Magic. use forces for a flaming sword and correspondance to teleport it into an enemy anus.

>>54154326
>missed the part where I said Hunter
I used to think Vampfags were the worst thing ever. Mages make me rethink that opinion

>>54154127
Don't get into melee as a mortal.

How does Mage sight interact with a changeling's mask/mein or a demon's cover? How can you tell their appearance isn't real and how could you view their true form?

>>54154849

There's a Practice for this specific purpose.

>>54154900
But what arcana(s)? And would they set off peripheral mage sight?

>>54154900
Spoofing still defeats Unveiling and Knowing spells.

>>54154849
Demon would be Prime, but you'd still have to get past all the bullshit that Demons can do.

>>54154998

Referring more to Unveiling here. A Demon / Changeling will be found out rather promptly.

>>54154641

see

>>54154824

>>54154298
No advice? Should I ask elsewhere?

>>54155089
Melee is 'viable' assuming the person you're fighting isn't supernatural or armed with a firearm.

If you're hellbent on playing a melee character fighting against the supernatural then you'll have to invest into supernatural merits to level the playing field.

>>54154127
>Gentlemen, how do we balance guns to melee?

Defense applies to firearms?

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So I'm thinking about running Requiem for my group, but I've got no experience as a GM/ST.

I was just wondering if you folks had any tips or tricks for a beginner Storyteller?

>>54154127
Answer: Play a game set in a country with sensible gun laws that don't let every chucklefuck with enough money own a gun

>>54155596
Have the background fluff ready stuff like what factions are in the city and who controls what etc. But plan on your players going off the rails from the get go.

>>54155596
Just develop the simple method of GMing. Have a series of plot hooks and a vaguely intended story direction to default too, but above all master the art of improvising because nothing ever goes exactly according to plan.

If you intend for the players to go to Location A, you have to be ready for them if they decide instead to go to Location B, C, D, E or even W.

Usually this means being able to roll with the punches and make up new things to happen on the fly, but in a worst case scenario you can always abuse Schrodinger's Plot Hook.

For instance if a certain event or NPC was going to be at Location A, but the PCs have in their stupidity made their way over to Location W, its often entirely reasonable to put the event or NPC at the new location. The players will never know he wasn't always there.

Obviously you can't always do this, it'd be very weird for the ghost to be at the gay bakery instead of the haunted house, but other then that [or maybe even including that, this is White Wolf] you should get the idea.

>>54155776
>ghost to be at the gay bakery
Brings new meaning to cream filled?

>>54155776
If I ever open a bakery I am now naming it The Gay Bakery

>>54155754

>Implying gun laws mean anything to someone with the right connections and criminal intent, even under the UK's draconain laws.

>>54155754
What about crossbows?

>>54153563
Monopoly

>>54155905
Well yeah, but that means that a person needs to actually expend effort to have a gun, and also needs to expend effort to hide said gun and not get caught with it or shit gets real

>>54155754

The only country I know of like that is called Switzerland, and it's kinda small.

>>54155986
Every nation should aspire to become a little bit like Switzerland.

>>54156008

True, and i'm saying this as a proud burger

>>54156008
A tax haven for blood money and Nazi plunder?

>>54156048

There's better tax havens these days, and the Nazis owned most of Europe at one point - holding their shit was a smart move.

Even if swiss ingots have an abnormally high mercury content as a result.

>new vampire game this friday
>tell players they can choose any clan they want
>first guy to say something wants to be a Ravnos

Shit.

>>54155986

>Switzerland
>where every male has to do military service and is in possesion of an assault rifle if he is allowed to serve in the military (they do psychological tests)
>they had to resort to not handing out ammo because so many people did family massacres

Yeah no. As a Hunter in Switzerland you can get your hands on a military weapon fairly easy.
>

>>54156319
Wait what? Then what's the point in making them drag around a 10 pound hunk of iron then?

>>54156315

>planning phase of new chronic
>player i suspected to be a problem wants to be a malkavian
>shit.jpg
>actually sees that a disorder is fucked
>i am going to read about the clans
>muh they are all boring
>What mortal do you want to be?
>i don't know

Fuck. Don't join the chronic then.

>>54156340
Its militia based i think. So they have local a local armory in case of a national emergency. I am not 100% sure though.

Anyways Switzerland is not a country with few guns and sure as fuck not the only one that should come to mind,

>>54156319

Also proves it's not the crazy people who do all the shootings, doesn't it?

>>54156471

Eh family stuff that escalates, extended suicides yada yada

Nasty business

>>54156417

I desperately want to play a Malk with alien hand syndrome.

>>54156829
That sounds like it would be fun. Maybe you could fluff your Dementation as your clan curse leaking into a person from contact with the affected hand

>>54156829

Imagine if you resist a frenzy but your hand doesn't?

>>54156917
Imagine if you don't resist a frenzy but your hand does.

>>54156917
>>54156936
So like 'the evil dead'?

Question for Awakening players. What sort of defensive spells do you have up all the time? And what steps do you take to avoid having sleeper bystanders from noticing your magic?

>>54157141

Forces 2: shield against kinetic damage (modeled off of Matter 2 - Alchemist's Touch).

>>54157141
Last time I played, I ran around with a Mind Veiling spell most of the time.
Think a lower grade version of Incognito Presence.
One that is Withstood, and ceases to operate temporarily if you make a scene.
Less "you can't recognise me", and more "please don't look at me".

Which meant that it:
1. Didn't cost Mana as it's not a hard-limitation effect
2. Generally doesn't cause Quiescence, as it's not obviously Magical

>>54157141
The Outward and Inward eye lets you see everything in your field sensory range from every angle.

Kind of unpleasant when you're trying to shit or something but good to keep aware of ambushes being planned.

>>54157912

Defecation serves the Lie.

>>54157141
A cloak I've enchanted with invisibility and counts as 5/5 immune to armor-piercing.

>>54158114

How can that be true if Vampires don't poop?

>>54158265

Vampires piss out blood

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Anyone got filename pics that are WoD related? I have a couple

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>>54158572

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>>54158572
Is nWoD good too?

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>>54158572

Paradox happened

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>>54158572

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>>54158798

>>54158600

>**grumble** Picture reminds me that I'm still angry at SatyrDouche for eliminating the Lions of Zion in M20 because some SJW might be triggered by Zionists, yet he includes references to every fringe craft **grumble**

>>54156417

Try setting it in Australia
>Low gun ownership/crime rate
>But guns are still a thing, not impossible to get your hands on, but impractical to try and carry around for the most part.
>Few urban centers spread out over wjde, empty areas
>You only need to worry about the dominions of a few major characters and how they interact, rather than one for every city.
>Entire population of Australia is about the same as New York.
>You get to bring out weird Australian dreamtime inspired monsters that haven't been done to death in the horror genre.

>>54158841
>Playing M20.
>Not disregarding that shit in favor of the infinity better 2e and Revised

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>>54158572
Pic Related

>>54156829
Chiming in to say I have played a Malk with Capgras Delusion who would occasionally believe someone had been replaced, which got interesting when we had to deal with Tzimisce infiltrators.

There's also a canon marauder with Cotard's. That would be interesting considering a vampire with Cotard's isn't entirely wrong...

>>54158857
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYP_cqlvhQI

>Not setting it in really small countries like New Zealand

>>54158831
What am I reading.

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>>54158572

>>54158940
>Best Taste Anon
Sequel comes out soon. Kiwifags will get it months before Americunts.

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>>54158831

>>54158956
I have no idea anon, but I want to read this out of morbid curiosity

>>54158841
I asked this last thread but I think it got overlooked. Shitty politics aside can't you create your own tradition?

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>>54158572

>>54158841
>>54158998
The problem is that the book includes references to the Technocracy [who brainwashes people], the Cult of Ecstacy who do every drug and sex act on the planet, the Celestial Chorus with all its jihads and crusades, and the Taftani who even commit pedastry, but apparently the Lions of Zion are a step too far.

Diddling little boys is just fine for modern sensibilities but God help you if you support Jewish Nationalism.

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>>54159032
WTF

>>54159084
Well perhaps you can start diddling little jewish boys?

I have an idea for a webcomic. It's going to be loosely based on WoD. It's about a neonate vampire in the Dark Ages, who uses his powers to take to a life of piracy. It will chronicle his life all the way to the modern ages and by the end he will be a super powerful Vampire with abilities like blood magic, shadow magic, super speed, strength, flesh crafting etc. There will be things like Werewolves, Mages, Demons and other supernaturals. What do you guys think?

>>54158998
>itty politics aside can't you create your own tradition?

You can of course do anything you want in your own chronicle, although an entire new Tradition would really upset the setting. However, the Lions of Zions already existed in Ascension/Sorcerer's Crusade canon, and were liked by a great many fans. Their exclusion, particularly in light of Phil's whitewashing (err..., snowflakewashing???) and name changing so many other Traditions and Crafts is just galling, and to the extent the rest of M20's setting and rules weren't already a steaming pile of crap, would be enough for me not to want to support the product and OPP.

>would it have been better if Phil's "fixed" the Lions?
>Kittens of Vague Judaean Ancestry who Have Nothing Unkind to Say About the Religion of Peace(tm) But Would Appreciate it Greatly if Parties Who Shall Not Be Mentioned Would Stop Slaughtering Their People

>>54159239
>Well perhaps you can start diddling little jewish boys?

>Confusing Jews with the Catholic Church

>>54159371
Which one sucks baby dicks again I get them mixed up?

>>54159322

World of Shiver Me Timbers

>>54159402
>sucks baby dicks

???

Is that a niche WOD reference?

>>54159322

The Tale of Gary Stu ???

fuck off please

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>>54159438

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>>54159477
>Mhmmm yes that is a fine suckling if i do say so my self

>>54159477

Nope, still going with Catholic Church

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_sexual_abuse_cases

>>54159499
>>54159477
>>54159534

Imagine the heads that would explode if this was ever mentioned in the WOD or M20.

https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Islam_and_Pedophilia

>>54159534
Jeffrey Epstein, it's you?

>>54159534

too bad their isnt as much outrage over school teachers or daycare abusers.

>>54155980

and its easier to just accept Ahmeds cock up the ass in those countries

>>54159424
I was thinking of making an arc were he fights Demon Ninjas or Chinese Vampire Ninjas. Ninja vs Pirate action.

>>54159499
>>54159534
>>54159554
>>54159582


And people ask why I have such a problem with Abrahamic Religion.

>>54159473
Well he's not going to start of powerful. It will basically be a Shonen Horror hybrid.

>>54158960

If you're running WoD, and your games don't feel even a little bit like Phantasm, you should be running Chronicles instead.

>>54159612

But he will eventually surpass everyone else right?

Gary fuckin' Stu

>>54159606
>And people ask why I have such a problem with Abrahamic Religion.

Paedophilia and sexual abuse have nothing to do with religion per se. Abusers will always use positions of authority and trust in respected institutions to cover their abuse, regardless of whether it's religious institutions, schools and day care, or perverts at BBC.

The abuse relating to the Catholic Church was so vile, not only because of the many victims, but because it was so incredibly widespread and the powers that be in the Church actively covered-up the crimes of so many abusers for so many years. Like many scandals, it was the cover-up, not only the horrific crime.

>>54159606
>And people ask why I have such a problem with Abrahamic Religion.

I have a problems with many unions, particularly teacher's unions. They routinely protect and defend terrible sexual abusers and other criminal.

>>54159688

And you could sue the church and get lots of money. Dont forget that part either. Cant sue the local daycare or the city park groper for that sweet payday.

>>54159688
>>54159710

Chronicles of Darkness: SVU


>flashbacks to Forever Knight

>He was brought across in 1228,
>Preyed on humans for their blood.
>Now he wants to be mortal again.
>To repay society for his sins,
>To emerge from his world of darkness,
>From his endless forever night.

Idea for a Hero: they simply call him the Rodent, for he protects the poor and the powerless in places that other Heroes do not find so glorious. He is extremely urban savvy, and has a Gift that allows him to use a limited form of spatial control through subways, alleyways sewers and such. Whatever rewards he earns from killing Beasts or saving innocents, he shares with the poor and powerless. He possess surprisingly high Integrity, but has a dark secret. He is actually hundreds of years old, and has been keeping himself alive by killing Beasts. He was born as a nobleman, but was cursed by an Incarnate Beast to live as an eternal outcast for his snobbery and arrogance. Now he roams the great cities of the Earth, seeking a way to bypass the curse, return to glory and retain his Heroic powers.

>>54159650
No, there will be new threats that arise that match his new powers of course. Mages will be OP as fuck for sure.

>>54159729

I'm normally not big on gratuitous lawsuits, but if there ever was an inexcusable and widespread breach of a duty of care to children, it was the Church abuse scandal.

Whatever the Church has paid, it's not enough.

>>54159606
You might as well just say all religion. And pretty much every institution ever. Genital mutilation, pedophilia, and other forms of sexual abuse aren't just limited to Abrahamic religion.

>>54159770

Thats nothing. Look at the number of missing children in the DC area compared to the entire state of California. For an area about 1/10th the size it sure is doing its best to have more faces on milk cartons

>>54159806

World of Lawyers

>>54159832
It's because politicians have Satanic kiddie sex parties in pizza shops. It's true, and I've actually been pretty worried because have you noticed how people who speak up are just disappearing? It's almost as if somebody is

>>54159832

Are the missing children in DC the result of some organized conspiracy or cover-up, or more the result of race, class and urban resource issues.

While large numbers of missing or exploited children is inexcusable regardless of cause, when such problems are organized and the perpetrators protected, no less by respected institutions, it takes on an ever greater legal and cultural significance.

>>54159860

Pure coincidence my fell-

>>54159860

>Famous Rays Very Special Pizza Party

Feedback requested on new idea for a Hobgoblin in Changeling The Lost.

http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-new-world-of-darkness/changeling-the-lost/1111110-new-hobgoblin-doctor-humorsworth

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>>54158841
>SatyrDouche for eliminating the Lions of Zion in M20

Phil and Rich are real assholes.

>Never Forget

>Never Again

>>54159877
>Are the missing children in DC the result of some organized conspiracy or cover-up, or more the result of race, class and urban resource issues.
The former, obvio

>>54159899
What are the Lions and Zion and why are they missed? Ascension was never my jam.

>>54159901
>Are the missing children in DC the result of some organized conspiracy or cover-up

In the CofD, it's definitely a Mystery Cult. However, in real world D.C., I' not so sure.

>>54159913

The Lions of Zion are in the Revised Storytellers Handbook and the Sorcerer's Crusade Companion.

The Lions were a craft who tried to protect Jews.

>>54159949
The name makes me think of something Gypsies-tier stereotypical, so...not really surprised it got cut.

>>54159894
I'm not familiar with changeling but what makes him a 'hobgoblin'?

>>54160508
He is a creature of the Hedge with no Clarity or Integrity meter, rather than a human who was taken to Arcadia, went through a Durance and escaped.

Does the concept sound interesting, at least?

>>54160568
To be honest senpai, it's a bit overdone. He needs either a gimmick or needs to turn the trope on it's head.

Because right now it's kind of your standard Scholomance/ Island of Dr. Moreau.

However you could play it straight. The classics are classic for a reason.

>>54159949
>The Lions were a craft who tried to protect Jews

When? Because they kind of suck at it.

>>54160447
>The name makes me think of something Gypsies-tier stereotypical, so...not really surprised it got cut.

It wasn't even remotely in the same ballpark as WOD: Gypsies. There was nothing offensive to Jews.

The Lions were cut essentially because hard left SJW's might be triggered by strong Zionists.

See
>>54159899

>>54159949
>tried to protect jews
>might be an insult to jews
????

>>54160632
I see where you are coming from, but being original wasn't my goal. I just wanted to create a fun homage to the the sort of mad scientists/sorcerers you mentioned. I'm a sucker for those.

Playing it straight seems like the best option to me, but I'm open to alternatives.

>>54160672
Seems like a reasonable reason to cut it to me. No extremist Muslim crafts, no extremist Jewish crafts. Completely fair.

>>54160667
>When? Because they kind of suck at it.

So few Lions, so many rabid, violent antisemites. The historic pogroms against Jews would have been worse without the Lions in the WOD.

Also, were the other innumerable minor and obscure Crafts representing every other minority culture any more impressive?

>Proud and strong Jews apparently are too "white" and triggering for the purported purveyors of "inclusion" and "diversity" at OPP/WW.

>>54160703

The Lions were religious Jews who tried to protect their fellow Jews. This is only problematic or controversial in the twisted minds of Brucato, Rich and those like them.

>>54160723
The only thing that matters is if it works for your game/PCs. It seems fine to me I don't see any obvious hangups.

I still think it's hilarious how a few years ago if you told WW / OPP that you didn't like the Lions and wanted them out of Mage, you would be Literally Hitler™

Now you'd probably get called a Nazi (somehow) for demanding they be put back in the game.

>>54160731

They weren't "extremist" unless you consider Jews trying to protect themselves from people actually and actively trying to kill them as too "extreme." The Lions did not hate or gratuitously hunt or hurt anyone, they simply wanted they and their fellow Jews to be quietly left alone. Both historically and today, unlike virtually every other tiny minority group, killing Jews seems to a form of bigotry tolerated and often encouraged, with such notions popular on the contemporary far left.

>>54160822
>They weren't "extremist" unless you consider Jews trying to protect themselves from people actually and actively trying to kill them as too "extreme."

Well, y'know, when you're taking land that you have no actual claim to and forcing out the people who actually deserve to live there, it's kind of hard to be sympathetic.

>>54160772
>I still think it's hilarious how a few years ago if you told WW / OPP that you didn't like the Lions and wanted them out of Mage, you would be Literally Hitler™
>Now you'd probably get called a Nazi (somehow) for demanding they be put back in the game.

That's an astute observation, and I imagine Brucato and RIch don't appreciate the irony.

However, I'm not so much demanding that the Lions should be included so much as that they should have been treated like every other minor minority craft that Phil insisted on including to demonstrate "diversity" and "inclusion." I might not have like it, but if Phil "updated" the Lions and included them like he did with other crafts and Traditions, it would at least not readily appear that Jews are somehow exempt from "diversity" and "inclusion."

>>54160845
>Land belongs to the Jews
>Then it belongs to the Romans
>Then it belongs to the Arabs
>Then the Christians [briefly]
>Then the Ottomons
>Then the British who give it back to the Jews

"Palestine" not found.

I'm really starting to miss the mage supremacy shit posting.

>>54160845

Read some history. Jews were being slaughtered in the Levant and elsewhere well before the formation of Israel.

The history of the Middle East did not start in either 1947 or 1967, when Israel actually took possession of Gaza, the West Bank and the Golan. Where are the admonitions against Egypt, Jordan and Syria about their historic, and current, treatment of the Palestinians?

Comments like yours are precisely the evidence of the double standard concerning the Jews discussed earlier.

>>54160901
>Then it belongs to the Arabs

That's what Palestinians are, so. In any case, the Jews that live there now are completely unrelated to the original Hebrews, being a bunch of white people from mostly Central Europe moving in en masse. It's colonialism plain and simple m8. Judaism frankly would be better off without Zionists making them all look like amoral thugs.

>>54160902
>I'm really starting to miss the mage supremacy shit posting.

>How about some IC Jophiel comments?

>>54160924
>Jews were being slaughtered in the Levant and elsewhere well before the formation of Israel.

Again, not the same Jews. The HEBREWS had a rightful claim on the land; the modern Israelis are a bunch of white land thieves.

>>54160939
>the Jews that live there now are completely unrelated to the original Hebrews,


You need to read a book or two. Would you care to comment about many of the founding and early Israelis who were expelled from other Middle Eastern countries for no other reason than they were Jewish.

>>54160940
I think you mean LARP comments :^)

For a Hunter game how do I come up with additional things to do between big plot points and run ins with the main enemy force.

This includes downtime stuff, hunting stuff (Resources for creating other unique monsters and situations), and the likes.

>>54160956
Doesn't change the fact that the only thing the modern settlers shared with the region's original inhabitants is a religion.

>>54160939
The Arabs also have fifty other countries, and unlike the Jews, the 'Palestinians' have no genetic, cultural, linguistic, or other bonds to form themselves into a distinct people. They're just Arabs who happen to live in the Holy Land. You're claim that the Jews are unrelated to the Hebrews is also highly dubious.

In any case all this discussion is purely theoretical by this point. The Palestinians missed their window for a two-state solution about 2-3 decades ago. Almost 13% of Israel's population is Jews living over the 1949 Armstice lines, they aren't going back. Especially since those lines are indefensible as national borders.

If anything its more likely that at some point in the future the Arab States surrounding Israel will get butthurt about something, attack the Jews again, and the Jews will use this as an excuse to take even more territory.

Greater Israel. Coming to a Middle East, near you.

>>54160952

Jews have been continuously residing in the Levant since before Islam was invented.

Ironically, your implied leftist antisemitism is precisely what hardens the attitudes of both Israelis and the Jewish diaspora that, quite correctly, believes that you and other really don't want a peaceful two state solution, but rather want all those "white" Jews pushed into the sea.

>>54160966
>And culture
>And history
>And genetic lineage/line of descent
>And language

>>54160965
>For a Hunter game how do I come up with additional things to do between big plot points

Medical care?

Updating last wills and testaments?

Befriending "friendly" mages?

>replay vtmb as a malk
>you call jeannette daughter of janus and she spells for the player that it's the two faced god
>the thin blood fortune teller spoils The Father and a smiling man
This is genius.

I am no longer here.

>>54160993
Oh, I'm under no illusions about Israel being here to stay; they've got nuclear weapons of their own and any strike against them is going to be met with massive nuclear retaliation.

Still, the place doesn't rightly belong to the Europeans living there now, as unactionable as it may be.

>and unlike the Jews, the 'Palestinians' have no genetic, cultural, linguistic, or other bonds to form themselves into a distinct people. They're just Arabs

You just contradicted yourself here, m8. The Palestinians DO have such bonds, they DO have the cultural links and the genetic ties. They're local Muslim Arab tribes with strong links to the place and to each other.

>>54161018

You forgot fighting retreat, research, hiding, and whatever else you might do in Call of Cthulhu.

>>54161031
Bloodlines Malks are the definitive way they should be played. This is a completely official and canon fact

All this nonsense for a god that doesn't exist.

>>54161004
Culture? Dubious, considering how different modern Judaism is from ancient practice.

History? Conceded, since anti-semitism continues to be a thing.

Genetics? Hahaha no. No. Israelis have far more European DNA than anything else.

Language? Modern Hebrew is kind of a reconstruction/bastardization of Aramaic.

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>>54161061

>>54161018
>>54161052
Right. I'll mark these down.

I just mainly have an issue with say coming up with cool monsters for when they are not/cannot deal with the main plot point.

>>54161041
Except the Palestinians do not. The very term "Palestine" doesn't even refer to a country, it refers to a geographic region.

The Israelis are descended from the Hebrews, and share a similar culture, religion. ;language, and so on with them.

The Palestinians are virtually indistinguishable from the surrounding Arab states. The brass tacks is that that land is Kike-istan and likely always will be.

>>54161053
How though? Do you feed the Malk a bunch of notes about upcoming plot points?

>>54161073
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Jews

Even assuming all Israelis are Ashkenazi that's still inaccurate.

>>54160993
>If anything its more likely that at some point in the future the Arab States surrounding Israel will get butthurt about something, attack the Jews again, and the Jews will use this as an excuse to take even more territory.
>Greater Israel. Coming to a Middle East, near you.

Ironically, many of the Sunni states in the region are far more concerned about Iran and Shia influence than the Jews. Don't ever forget that the Arabs and Muslims have been killing each other in record numbers for generation without anything to do with Israel.

If Iran continues to ascent, the tacit alliance between Israel and many Sunni countries will leave the Palestinians in the cold. For many Arabs in the region, the Palestinians are a foolish thorn, whose political usefulness to rapidly declining in the face of other fare more pressing threats.

>"The Arabs never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity." - Abba Eban

In any event, arguing over Israeli / Palestinian conflict missed the point about the Lions of Zion. My objection to their treatment was that they should have been treated like every other craft instead of being singled out, particularly since nothing about them was offensive to actual Jews, the distinct minority as issue.

>>54161093

Allow them to use ooc knowledge?

>>54161084
>Except the Palestinians do not

Except they do, for the reasons stated above that you apparently just want to ignore because then it can't utterly torpedo your point. Which it does.

>The Israelis are descended from the Hebrews

The Israelis are descended from Germans, Czechs, and Poles, mostly.

>>54161112
>If Iran continues to ascent, the tacit alliance between Israel and many Sunni countries will leave the Palestinians in the cold

That doesn't make sense, Palestinians are majority Sunni.

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If you used a mix of Matter and Forces, could you superheat air into plasma and attack with it?

>>54161106
I'd be more inclined to take those studies at face value if they weren't largely conducted "in-house" by Zionists.

>>54161041
>he Palestinians DO have such bonds, they DO have the cultural links and the genetic ties. They're local Muslim Arab tribes with strong links to the place and to each other.

How are the Palestinians in Gaza, the West Bank and the Golan genetically, culturally, linguistically, etc,. historically different from other Egyptians, Syrians, and Jordanians, respectively?

Again, history did not begin in 1947 or 1967,

>>54161120

Have you ever wondered why no other mideast country will give the "palestinians" a home?

Hint: It's because they're the niggers of the levant.

More on topic, you'll also note Phil Hole dropped the Wu Keng plotline because it would trigger some butts.

>>54161146
Yes, yes you could. With Space/Correspondence you could turn the air around a guy to plasma from across the country.

Besides generation/blood potence, is there any place where I can get rules for what happens after a player diablerizes another vampire? I have this document http://vampirerpg.free.fr/Rules/Amarantha.html from a quick google search, but I'm not seeing any official rules beyond generation/blood potence change, aura streaks and other bad shit.

>>54161146

Ummm, yes?

>>54161061
>All this nonsense for a god that doesn't exist.

WOD vampires would definitely disagree.

>Caine's a wimp

>>54161120
Except they don't, and your second point is incorrect, even if we assume Sephardic Jews don't exist. The very concept of a Palestinian nationality didn't even come into existence until Israel's formation or shortly before that.
>>54161112
Well actually it didn't. The stated reason the develop didn't want LoZ in is because they would obviously be a Zionist group if translated to modern times.

>>54161133
That's the point. If Israel is working with the Sunni states against Shia Iran, the Sunni won't be able to put pressure on Israel to do anything about the Palestinians.

>>54161166
But why would you do that?

HUBRIS

>>54161173
Masquerade (Fallen being a close second) singlehandedly ruined the OWoD metaplot because of its 'God' shit.

Fuck, Ascension and Apocalypse actually meshed well. Oblivion and Dreaming too.
Judeo-Christian shit is the sole culprit.

>>54161153
>How are the Palestinians in Gaza, the West Bank and the Golan genetically, culturally, linguistically, etc,. historically different from other Egyptians, Syrians, and Jordanians, respectively?

How they're different from those people isn't the point, the point is they're a people with long-running connections to that region, far more than the European white fucks who shoved them out. Like you said, history doesn't begin in 1947.

That said, the tribes of Arabs that lived in that area aren't exactly the same as the tribes that lived in those other areas either, so.

>Have you ever wondered why no other mideast country will give the "palestinians" a home?

Because the Palestinians don't want to live somewhere that isn't *their* home?

>>54161179
>The very concept of a Palestinian nationality didn't even come into existence until Israel's formation or shortly before that.

Not quite. The concept of the nationality being CALLED Palestinian dates to then. The actual group of people now called that has been a cohesive thing much longer than that. Much, much longer than that.

>>54161196
>But why would you do that?
All the best Mages know that you should ask "Why not?" instead of "Why?".

>>54161197

They are still the garbage people of the mideast who no one wants. no identity or purpose beyond "fuck the kikes." Perhaps they should go to Sweden.

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Seems even more relevant now than when I made it.

>>54161231
>They are still the garbage people of the mideast who no one wants. no identity or purpose beyond "fuck the kikes."

Well, if you're going to insist on being reductive.

>The Israelis are still the garbage people of the mideast who no one wants. no identity or purpose beyond "fuck the mudslimes". Perhaps they should go to America.

>>54161267
America here. Please keep out, we have our own garbage people.

>>54161231

Yeah, but how about them Wu Keng? Would they have broken free, and what would have happened then?

>>54161133
>That doesn't make sense, Palestinians are majority Sunni.

True, but the issues are far more complex.

First, the Palestinians, particularly Hamas, sought and received support from Iran. Once upon a time, the mutual hatred of Jews sufficed to offset the Sunni / Shia issue. However, this relationship is increasingly coming to bite the Palestinians in the political and diplomatic ass.

The Palestinians were also used as a convenient political distraction to keep Arab populations mollified in the face of other internal social and economic problems. Don't forget that Palestinians are generally hated by most Arabs and treated abominably, both as a matter of law and practice. Iran's ascent and nervousness among much of the Arab peoples have made the Palestinians far more of an irritant, regardless of any Sunni connections. Many Arabs, government and people, want a peace deal for no other reason than they have more important issues to deal with than Palestinians, particularly since they don't really view Israel as a direct military threat. Absent some stupidity on the part of the Palestinians to needlessly provoke Israel, the other Arab states know they have nothing to fear. The same certainly cannot be said concerning Iran.

>>54161270
I always wondered if the quotes on these things were actually what was being said.

>>54161146
Awakening 2e matter 3/forces 3 creates plasma

>>54161288
You sweet sweet summer child.

>>54161149
>conducted "in-house" by Zionists.

Like those Zionists with all the Nobel and other scientific awards that are so represented in virtually all of the modern centers of scientific advancement and learning?

Yeah, what do those Jews know about science...

>>54161288
It absolutely is. Look it up, it's hilarious.

>>54161285
Mostly jews.

>>54159032
Man this shouldn't get me as hard as it does

>>54161257

i would pay my jizzya all over her face

>>54161312
I'm not questioning their ability, but rather pointing out potential self-interest.

>>54161196
>Masquerade (Fallen being a close second) singlehandedly ruined the OWoD metaplot because of its 'God' shit.

While you are certainly free to dislike elements of the vast metaplot (I certainly do), the Masquerade setting was the lynchpin of WW's success.

From a business standpoint, that "God Shit" is the reason why you have games like Apocalypse, Ascension and Dreaming.

>>54161196
>Masquerade ruining anything

Why People keep on saying shit Like this, Vampire was the first game in the line, so it didn't ruin anything, it was actually weird to introduce a different cosmology afterwards, even if I really Like it.
But it doesn't even matter because the two are connected thanks to Demon (with Fera being Malhim descendants and Gaia just being something lower in the hierarchy without changing its flavor)

Demon is really underrated and underknown.

>>54161363
I doubt it was having a god be a mentioned character that made Masquerade so successful.

>>54161363
Masquerade has always been the backbone of White Wolf. I will never deny such a thing. Ever.

Does this exclude it from its various blatant flaws, namely its terrible contributions to the metaplot? No, not at all.

>straight up racism to the Palestinian people
>honest to god unironic JIDF
>>>/pol/

>>54161378

People don't like Masquerade because it was too narrow in its world view.
Other lines expanded everything, namely Apocalypse and Ascension.
WW didn't learn and they released Fallen, which while cool, did not help the metaplot situation.

>>54161378
DtF is a shit. Vampire didn't really hurt the meta, they were just wrong about almost everything.

>>54161395
>palestinian
>people

pick one

>>54161402
>WW didn't learn

They still haven't learned. They're continuing with pointless metashit in V5.

It's going to bomb.

>>54161402
As I said People really don't know much about Demon, because it actually has a lot of material and views about other splats, and it helped connect the two different cosmologies together.

>>54161411
Did you even try to play it, idiotic /pol/poster?

>>54161419
Not so sure about bombing, but will it be a pile of steaming hot shit? Almost definitely. Swedish Dracula is a curse.

>>54161402

Had Masquerade and Fallen taken a broader approach to a cosmology instead of sticking to a Judeo-Christian ideal, things would have went rather smoother.

>>54161434

I read it, and I'll stick with Descent. And since when does /pol/ defend Israel or attack it's enemies?

>>54161434
>it actually has a lot of material and views about other splats
Like how Mages owe their existence to angels and shit? If I'm remembering that correctly, than nah famala, that's not a good contribution. And in general I don't like it when other splat books try to lay out information for splats aside from the one it's about. How would you feel if Awakening came out and said vampires were made by the Psychopomp? I wouldn't like it.

>>54161482
>How would you feel if Awakening came out and said vampires were made by the Psychopomp?
Mage outright said that a archmage of death made vampires, so.....

>>54161482
Fallen was also flat out wrong.
Mages/Avatars are the shards of an extradimensional consciousness outside of the known multiverse/Tellurian.

Not fragments of Angels.
You'd think the authors would have collaborated like actual professionals back then.

>>54161477
Both games are quite cool, and I really suggest you to play Fallen, you Will see that excluding the premise, you can exclude the Christian elements easily and the mechanics are quite fun and unique. Also the fluff as I Said, connects everything so it's quite cool, it even gives Wraith some love (especially if you play Slayers)

>>54161513

That was a rumor, similar to the purported origins of the God-Machine having been that of an Archmage as well. We're also discussion OWoD, not CofD.

>>54161537

Should world and chronicles have seperate threads? I'd say no, because i've come to like borrowing between the two quite a bit.

>>54161525

It doesn't connect anything at all. Ascension did far better at connecting the lines, fan hate and splat bias aside.

>>54161537
>We're also discussion OWoD
>How would you feel if AWAKENING

>>54161519
>muh fluff is the only truth because...

Magefags everybody

Also mobody says that they are fragments of angela, humanity has its potential from the very first moment of its creation.

>>54161513
Baseless hearsay.

>>54161570

>being this retarded

>>54161402
>People don't like Masquerade because it was too narrow in its world view

Consider Masquerade's setting in the context of when it was released, it's target audience and who was writing it.

Using a hard Judeo-Christian made the game very relatable to the largely American, middle class, white audience. The writers also largely belonged to this group, and wrote what they knew about. We've seen the tragic wrecks when WW tried to write about other cultures and places. Also, don't forget, Masquerade was very novel for its time, and well before the ubiquitousness of the internet. Taking yet more risks with the setting could have killed the line entirely.

>>54161445
At that point you may as well play CofD.

I prefer CofD for that reason above all else. There's no meta plot to worry about and I can divorce my story from thorny issues like god.

But the appeal of classic WoD is the setting itself and all the baggage that comes with it.

>>54161572
It's not far fetched. Archmages can flat-out create other splats.

Have an Archmage of Mind make Genius: The Transgression official.

>>54161570
Well anon, if two splat books had two conflicting origins for one splat, which one would you take to be the more valid one? The one from the book actually about that splat, or the one from a book nearly totally unrelated to it?

>>54161570
>humanity has potential

That's just so adorable.

What's next, vampires are really people?

>>54161584
>CofD
>thorny issues like god

Indeed.

>confused and determined Obrimos

>>54161611
Obrimos can tend to be religious, but no real life god is confirmed to be real.

>>54155596
run a short one shot and see if they want to continue or try something new. There is no point fleshing out 100 characters if your only going to use 7.

Plan a tight story that pulls all the characters together. Make sure they all have something to contribute and do not suffer that guy who wants to forget everything and run off. You don't need to put everything on rails but you need everyone going in the same general direction. No one should feel like their from mars.

Understand your movers and shakers. If your chasing a serial killer you need to understand your serial killer, the people chasing him, and his the people being chased. If your doing a power play between two kindred then understand both the movers and the pawns in the game.The last thing you want is to plan your set pieces in a way that they all fall apart if Joe dies. Don't build a plot that killing the killer is the one button that solves everything unless that button can't be done till the end.

As for scene creation, make sure everyone has something to do. If you have five people and two tasks that need to get done then your either going to have 3 people standing around or everything be teamwork and no one feels exceptional, people get bored and become uninterested. Its better to split the party(if someone needs to make food or use the bathroom having those guys drive to the other side of town in game is convenient) or have simultaneous things going on to force thinking and decision making. If your face is on the phone with the impatient detective and your lead knocks on your door, your going to need to decide if your going to put the detective off or have someone who isn't the face deal with the social situation that just came knocking.

In the beginning its okay to pull things out of your ass. Surprise foes and facts are all okay. As the story goes on let the players choices come back and bite them. In the final act its nothing but the players and their choices, let the cookie crumble.

>>54161585
fuck off.

>>54161682
Why? I am legit serious.

That's how the seven dot Practices work.

>>54161560
>didn't read any demon books
>>>54161588
The Point is that they don't conflict, anon took the "fragment of angels" out of his ass, when both splats agree to the origin.

Also even among mages there is always a discussion about the origin of things, how do you Know what's the right one? Exactly, all of then are canon, and none is at the same time. But, if you see more common points between splats you usually kind of believe that's the right path, and demon offers the "connection to all" that was missing.
>>54161482
Nope, wrong again, it just says that Lucifer shared some knowledge about How to use magick and humanity potential to mages, but they did anything else on their own.

>>54161696
>REEEEEEEEEEEE

Calm down.

>>54161696
>it just says that Lucifer shared some knowledge about How to use magick and humanity potential to mages

Except that's not how it happened. This is why people hate Fallen.

>>54161679
Dont tie down any plot point until you really need too, keep it really loose.

If you have a bad thing going on, dont write hundreds of pages defining what it is beforehand, be prepared to change it on the fly.

Also if you have a mystery or something, listen to your players, they often have better ideas about what might be going on than you do, so steal it, it makes your players feel cool that they guessed what was going on and sometimes solves your writer block problems.

>>54161694
Genius is shit, fuck off

>>54161747
Oh, I can agree on that.

I was only using it as an example.

>>54161723
Mind to post proof that says "No humanity just understood Magic by themselves from the very first dawn of time?" You Know that a lack of it may just confirm Demon, right?

The goetia of your childhood imaginary friend and the monster under your bed would exist in your onerios correct?

What rank would they be roughly?

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>>54161747
lmao
>being this mad

>>54161779
>No humanity just understood Magic by themselves from the very first dawn of time

They kind of did. Avatars predate humanity. It was even seriously considered twice that a primordial mage might have started the universe. It was a nod to the extradimensional consciousness that the Chorus speaks/preaches of.

>>54161779
Unless it's also in the Mage book, I'm not taking it seriously. Especially because a Demon book saying that Lucifer taught humanity magic strikes me as Demon wanking itself.

>>54161747
>>54161751
Genius is awesome.

>>54161672
>Obrimos can tend to be religious, but no real life god is confirmed to be real.

That's why the Obrimos is both confused and determined.

>>54161696
>The Point is that they don't conflict
The point is that I'm not going to listen to another splat try to muscle its way in on another splat's fluff like that. Theories and rumors are one thing, this is another. In my opinion shit doesn't really need to be connected, and the games are better off being largely self-contained. Sharing a setting is fine, mishmashing shit together isn't.

>>54161796
Depends on how old you are and how much you think about them. Rank 2 at most.

>>54161855
I'd actually say the biggest problem is that they don't mish entirely. Its really weird that its assumed all these things exist together in one setting and yet they interact so rarely and in such controlled ways.

In my setting the first thing I did was assume the setting was an actual, well, setting, and drew inferences and started drawing up how all these factions would really interact.

This half-assed crossovering is the bigger problem in the WoD metaplot.

>>54161729
Someone once said "plot is the path left by interesting people"

When I said plan a tight story I should of said introduction. Getting people moving is one of the hardest parts(in my opinion) of storytelling. Onces you get them on the killers trail, or investigating the mansion or heading off to that cabin in the woods its all about keeping things going and interested.

If you reach a road block don't be afraid to have the killer strike again unexpectedly(only to find out it wasn't the killer at all but one of his fans! Look he dropped a clue) Or have the police knock on your door or the floor give way letting someone fall into that basement they should of found an hour ago.

Keep things moving, keep people going and let the cookie crumble. Its better for player to be undone by their choices, rather then set pieces built for them. Being betrayed by a random guy you met once or twice is nothing next to being betrayed by your old ally you let down so you could help your friend.

>>54161873
Would it be too 'magic realm' to be a Moros with Mind magic that has their own hit squad made up of their own personality flaws?

>>54161820
It doesn't say that.
Angels role were the ones of protectors and guardians, but also of creators of the universe, so they just teached humanity about things, who's the better teacher than the actual creator of one thing?
"I don't know how time works"
"You see, I created that part of time so I can help you by telling you a couple of secrets about it"
Angels/Demons are creatures that just have the know-how of the universe, and they shares it to humanity out of love, but tgat doesn't mean that humanity wasn't able to develop by itself, that was actually god original plan in fact, also because humanity was already born with the potential of doing anything, they just didn't realize it yet, angels just speed up things, and acted as the cool senpais.

>>54161939

The thing about Avatars is that they predate the universe. They originate from outside of it. True Magic(k) is older than divinity.

The God spoken of in Masquerade / Fallen isn't the same 'extradimensional consciousness' the Celestial Chorus alludes to in their sermons.

>>54161939
Still sounds stupid and wankish as fuck. Don't like it.

>>54161973
God has been declared a powerful Celestine in Apocalypse, directly under the Triat.

>>54161977
Demons in fiction are usually the ones that keep knowledge of a lot of things and often comes in contact/conflict with mortals and mages to make contracts, the classical trope of a mage selling his soul for power is the first thing that may come to mind, so I don't really think that it's wankish at all, it just describes what angels/demons are.

>>54162014
Fiction isn't always the same. Mortal sorcery would fall under that purview.

True magic is all about personal power.

>>54162014
A mage selling his soul is different than saying "Angels role were the ones of protectors and guardians, but also of creators of the universe, so they just teached humanity about things, who's the better teacher than the actual creator of one thing?".

Fuck off.

>>54162014

Porthos Fitz-Empress (Arete 9 Forces 6 Archmage) keeps Archangels in bottles as a hobby.
Just thought this would be an interesting little lore tidbit.

>>54162028
I know they are not the same, but you can see the common thing, demons know their stuff because they created that stuff, mages comes up with the power to manipolate that stuff, and demons offer tips to them because they know how it works, later they want to do that for either personal gain or still out of love, but the theme is still strongly familiar.

>>54162056

Except Demons don't have access to True Magic

:^)

>>54161880
No, lines need to be drawn. Crossover is fine in small doses, but player crossover and fluff mixing is fucking disastrous. I don't care if it doesn't make sense to you why these small groups of supernaturals with largely distinct interests and origins aren't always up in each other's business. Turning these games into a monster mash would be a huge mistake.

>>54162056
Demons created reality? Because you know that's Mages manipulate, right?

>>54162056

See

>>54162048

If demons and angels know so much, how come they can't get out of crazy old Porthos' magic bottles?

>>54161937
Anon, what results in magical realm is not the concept, but the execution. Are you gonna do it just to bust a nut? Or is there an actual plot that everyone agrees with? It's really that simple.

>>54162044
That because I was talking about the beginning, then they became twisted and tormented beings full of hatred, in need of humanity "spark" to fuel their power, so they became what they are best know for.

>>54162048
Never actually seen confirmation from that, but the definition of "archangel" doesn't really exist.

Also despite what you say, it still remain a blatant mage supremacy post, and that's not the current topic.

Well, Demonfaggotry. That's a rare one. Especially for Fallen.

>>54162102
>Never actually seen confirmation

Porthos has been mentioned sparingly in various Mage supplements. Trapping angels in objects isn't his only hobby, the crazy old man likes to put on plate armor and tackle elder beings in dimensions.

Or kill unfortunates during midnight kitchen raids.

>>54162085
Demons created reality under God instructions, and its purpose was to act as a playground for humanity and its potential, so I don't see your point.

>>54162102
>but the definition of "archangel" doesn't really exist.

Eh, it's what they used.
Perhaps Ascension knows things Fallen does not.

>>54162085
The origins of the universe are somewhat conflicted from gameline to gameline.

It was God in Masquerade / Fallen
It was the Triat in Apocalypse
It was an outer-dimensional entity in Ascension, or possibly an ancient mage.

Oblivion and Dreaming are a little trickier.

>>54162106
That's rare because they know the god-machine is watching them masturbate

>>54162120
I'm convinced Porthos is a parody of Brucato - On his good days he puts out stuff like "Orphans Survival Guide" or "Tales of Magick and Dark Adventure," but the rest of the time he's, well, Phil.

>>54162130
>Perhaps Ascension knows things Fallen does not.
And if Fallen doesn't refute them, maybe that's confirming them.

>>54162139

isn't god really just the first mage

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>>54162141

As long as the Machine enjoys what it sees.

>>54162092
That's simple, demons bares knowledge of the world that they shaped according to god's will, mages have the power to manipulate reality according to their own will, that's what makes them superior, it's like you are a master of a game and you know ALL the rules, then a fucker comes up and utterly cheat, you cannot contrast him if you are limited by the rules, no matter how skilled or intelligent you are.

>>54162126
>Demons created reality under God instructions
Gay.

>>54162156
Also, during history demons got nerfed utterly hard, the first time when they went against god's orders, where he just stopped providing them of power, while also nerfing them, so they had to use humans faith as a battery to sustain themselves. The second time happened when they got exiled into the Abyss.

>>54162156
>>54162189
Bar the cheesiest of masters, the strongest of demons are usually beefier than mages.

Archmages on the other hand... ...

read Fallen when it first came out, forgotten everything, this thread makes me want to reread it but meh fuck it.

>>54162207
It's both interesting and annoying.

Most don't enjoy it.

>>54162199
Archmages are supposed to be the strongest things conceivably playable, that's kind of the point by design.

I'd rather this magefaggery than the previous discussion

Thank god for magefags

>>54162106
I'm not a demonfag, I just happen to love (most) wod settings, vampire, werewolf, mage and so on, I love them all, I'm also interested in the 20th edition of wraith, but it actually scares me so I don't know if I will buy it when it will come out. I just love to spread knowledge about the less know splats, especially if I think that they get hate for no reason most of the time.

>>54162199
Speaking about cheesing, I always found funny how easy is to create a Earthbound that can just flood a place with 100000 eldritch horrors for days using the Mastery background as a normal in game mechanic. I don't know what a poor party is supposed to do when a ST just decides to go full retard with that.

>>54162239
Shouldn't Antes and Caine also be listed as on the same level as Arch Mages?

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>>54162677

>>54162677
You'd think, yeah.

Disciplines and Spheres don't match up in numbers, even at the higher end of play.

>>54163809
I know spheres are completely busted, brent 10 dot disciplines plot devices? If so, an Antediluvian is just as strong as an Archmage if the ST wants them to be.

>>54164105
A missing bomb is a plot device.
So is an insane Mage who wants to devour the planet.

Doesn't make them equivalent.

>>54164105
>>54164279

>This discussion again

Listen up shitheads:

It depends on your setting and the story you want to tell:

>¿MyWoD:

I have a Vamp focused WoD and tell a Vamp story. I don't even have true magic. So the strongest Archmage i have might be dangerous for a weaker metusaleh in the right circumstances but antes are freaking Apocalypse tier.

>for the nMage chronic i will probably never play:

No antes and mages wipe the floor with hordes of Vamps.

>a setting were both parties are locked in a power struggle

Both sides are capable and they both have stuff at their disposal that the other side simply doesn't have.

Its a storytelling game. Do whats best for your sandbox/story

>>54164279
Some of them would also be pretty into the whole devouring the planet thing, and plot device powers let Antediluvians do whatever the ST wants or needs, even stuff like Lasombra plunging the universe into the Abyss or whatever, so this whole Magefag vs Vampfag stuff is pointless.
>>54164570
That was the point I was trying to convey. The ST is the final arbiter of what happens at the table.

>>54164598
>so this whole Magefag vs Vampfag stuff is pointless
And yet strangely nostalgic.

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Resources for running a Dark Ages game?

Set int the 15th century.

Books, blogs, documentaries, etc.

>>54161196
>Masquerade singlehandedly ruined the OWoD metaplot

Except you wouldn't have oWoD (or any WoD) without Masquerade. Everything that isn't CoD is built around vamps, like it or not.

>>54165079
So I guess you could say it was doomed from the start.

>>54165079
This. And if Wolfs or Mages would have been the big thing the Metaplot would have been just as edgy.

How do you guys design a potential combat encounter? I'm not sure if I'm going to kill off my PCs with a cult of deranged spirit worshippers or if it'll be a reasonable challenge.

>>54160965
I am in the same boat, help would be appreciated

>>54162220
most are atheist fedorafags that get triggered whenever God is mentioned

>>54159554
Truly the religion of peace. No wonder everyone from these countries is fucked up

>>54160731
>no extremist muslim crafts
You have the Taftâni, who have found miracolously to tolerating Islam in M20, and the Batini, who are essentially a brainwashing cult complete with assassins.

>>54166848

Demon completely ruined Hunter, though.

It's important not to make one splat entirely subordinate to another, and Demon did that to all the splats, but especially Hunter.

>>54165937
depends on who and what your pc's are?

If they book reading nerds with zero guns between them then they probably fucked or if theres one mage in the group they are probably fine.

If your using chronicles, use the down and out rules, not every combat encounter has to end in a entire party kill.

>>54167015
how so? because of the allusions that the Messengers are angels?

>>54165103
Imagine if Apocalypse would have been the defining game
>edgy environmentalism and animism
>the main enemy are Captain Planet villains
>muh ebil corporations
>fraternities are evil cults that transform you into a monster
>save the rainforst
>pls donate to Greenpeace

I doubt cWOD would have had the same success

>>54167143
It was pretty fucking blatant.

>>54161196
>Apocalypse and Ascension meshed well

You must not be familiar with how different the Umbra was between the two, and how the former game didn't play ball with "everyone could be right!" like Mage does. They repel each other right down to their core premises.

>>54166848
Or because Demon caught fire and burned to the ground after being unveiled, basically.

Also, the fans kept declaring "layers of reality" to be the universal solution to full and equal crossover, when it was just another game's particular take on cosmology that doesn't translate well to other games.

>>54167015
They went back and forth on that. The lack of planning was palpable, so one can reasonably say that Lucifer really didn't have anything to do with them and leave any connections to Demon out far more easily than the hooks that connect Vampire to Demon. Or Wraith to Demon, those poor dead bastards being run over by the retcon truck...

>>54167192
1/10.

>>54167015
Demon also had its multi-dimensional creation mode, in which every version is true and Adam was fashioned from clay and humanity simultaneously evolved from apes. All the different creation stories are literally true, even for demons.

>>54167261
still re-reading demon just go to this bit, phew missed a spoiler!

Fucking pages of in character explanation is getting annoying.

>>54167228

My theory was that the Messengers weren't all on the same team.

>>54167274

Rereading as well, and holy shit is it a mess so far.

>>54167015
Could you argue that all the splats in CofD are subordinate to Mage because Exarchs?

>>54164598
>even stuff like Lasombra plunging the universe into the Abyss or whatever

The world, not the universe.

>>54167689
Assuming that all the splats use the same cosmology, which is usually an individual developer thing, and not something fronted in the game lines themselves?
No, because mages have their own little section of the cosmos made for them by them.

>>54167767
what are you talking about?

>>54167767
Every other splat resides in the fallen realm. Which is the prison world the exarchs left behind and try to stop people ascending into the supernal.

>>54164105
>>54164570
>>54164598

The ST excuse for Antediluvians/Caine being on part with Archmages is a very desperate excuse to make. I hope you realize this.
It's not like the Arch-spheres don't already outplay its plot device status, on account of how universal they are.

Really, the 'plot device' 10 dot Disciplines have only ever barely gone above planetary in scale, the Arch-Spheres can affect the entire universe at seven dots.
It's a pretty big difference between two sets of ridiculous capabilities, so let's not be so modest.

I know it's a pointless exercise, but humility is a nice thing to have on hand.

>>54167941
>I know it's a pointless exercise, but humility is a nice thing to have on hand.

Isn't that supposed to be one of the themes of Mage? That they should be a lot more humble/less overconfident than they are?

>>54167941
>It's not like the Arch-spheres don't already outplay its plot device status, on account of how universal they are.

Forces 9 is enough to kill every single vampire everywhere in one go. In all of existence if Time is used.

Though I wonder how this would effect humanity, Caine being the first human. Supposedly at least.

>>54168062
Its started again!!

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89KB, 261x192px

>>54162677
>>54163809
>>54164105
>>54164279
>>54164570
>>54164598
>>54164829
>>54167941
>>54168062

>>54167689

In theory yes, In practice no.

In theory, the world/reality is a prison made the way it is by the Exarchs and all that happy horseshit.

In practice, NMage is the only game that operates on the cosmic tier in the CofD.

In the OWoD, all the other games, except Hunter and Vampire (for the most part) were already operating on the Cosmic Tier to some extent when Demon came along and said "Lolno, dummies, here's how it really goes. A is for Adam, B is for Bible, now gimme dat Faith."

There were already plenty of spirits called Demons and Angels in both Mage and Wraith, having these jokers show up and be super special just kinda... sucks.

>>54168121
>having these jokers show up and be super special just kinda... sucks.

It's hard to take Fallen seriously when it got a lot of crap wrong to begin with. The writers did not collaborate very well.

>>54168121

Fuck, I forgot the last part of that rhyme which was "Or I'll fuck you in tha Eyehole."

>>54168164
or maybe it had everything right and what came before was wrong?

>>54168210

yeah, that's why it sucks. But at least we got Demon: the Descent out of it.

>>54168210

Found the triggered demonfag

>>54168210
Nah, maybe if the writers actually knew what they were writing about, sure.

The Fallen was a shoddy failure of an attempt to connect the lines. It contradicts far too much, and goes against canon lore by using canon lore.

>>54168121
>>54168186

That rhyme is something my character said to a bunch of other spoops arguing about the spirit world when we tried to play Demon.

It was around the time we stopped taking it seriously, which pissed the ST off to no end.

>>54168262
actually i was just playing devils advocate, pretty fitting considering the topic.

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yes, bathe us in your tears retarded demonfags

>>54168291
Hey i just read demon, it was a cool story. Better than VTM's lore.

>>54167973
Possibly, I prefer something more along the lines of fucking yourself over because of the hubris of your magic.

e.g, the quiescence caused by your kinetic energy barrier destroyed the psyche of the only person in the tristate area that could help you in pursuit of your current arcane obsession.

>>54168373

Fallenfags. As I said, Descent is pretty baller.

They wanted to make Fallen work, they should have focused on Preacher-esque Maltheism. "Yes, there is a God, and they're a massive cunt. Why else would the World of Darkness be so shitty?" Full Stop.

>>54168398
>Better than VTM's lore

Of course it would be. No matter how shit Fallen was, Masquerade is still worse. The first of the lines is the worst contributor to the metaplot.

>>54168073
Would you rather we discuss geopolitics based on bronze age superstitions from the fertile crescent?

>>54167228

>Demon caught fire and burned to the ground after being unveiled, basically.

I would love to see a chronology of that. I knew it wasn't that successful, but it was getting books, so i figured someone must have liked it.

>>54168483
Nah let's go back to larp posting.

>>54168619
Jophiel is welcome to trigger some more retards whenever she wants.

It will also help instigate the well deserved magefaggotry this thread so needs.

>>54167228
>You must not be familiar with how different the Umbra was between the two, and how the former game didn't play ball with "everyone could be right!" like Mage does. They repel each other right down to their core premises.

Considering OWerewolf was really about Hubris in a way OMage never could be. OMage was more about the Human Condition.

>>54168700

Fuck, forgot to add "I just assumed the woofs were wrong." My memory has recently just gone to shit.

>>54168373
I honestly believe that there is a good game somewhere in Fallen, and there were some pretty cool ideas.

Plenty of terrible ones too, and metaplot-wise it was fairly diastrous but I never liked metaplot and crossovers so that never bothered me as much.

>>54168765

Blatant Maltheism would have been key to making DtF work. Have "God's" angels deliberately make the world suck to get people to pray to it for it's own narcissistic satisfaction.

>>54167879
The ridiculous assumption, made by fans, that all the games take place in the exact same world when the book themselves make no mention of such a thing.
Like >>54167898, prime example of it. Nothing in the individual lines say anything of the sort, because the books do not involve the themes and setting of other books, only their own. Other supernaturals exist only in their most basic form and motivations, without wider cosmology being bootstrapped to them.
Misguided fans are the one that add that, and should be ignored on face.

>>54169087
I always treated the CofD as semi-canon. It's entirely up to you whether or not the various lines match up.

The Exarchs do kind of scream "we rule the universe" though, certainly more so than the God-Machine.

>>54169299

This is, of course, exactly what the Exarchs want everyone to think.

>>54169299
The Exarchs won, that's kind of the point.

The world is shit. Rise above it!

>>54169907

>>54161146
Yep, there's even a Legacy where making plasma is a listed part of their attainments. Celestial Masters.

>>54161161
What book are the Wu Keng from?