Martials vs Casters

>>54153413
This is the part where you define what your mages can do, according to what setting, how powerful they are (which depends on setting)...
Someone post that "depends on so many factors" picture, please?

>>54153413
This discussion is irrelevant until we know what specific type of wizard from what specific setting you are talking about.

Depending on your response, the answer to your question lies somewhere between "almost effortlessly" and "they can't."

>martials are bound by human limits
>wizards are bound by what I say
hmmm I wonder

YOU decide the weaknesses wizards have in your game, anon. There are not that many fantasy settings I can think of where a wizard is utterly unmatchable vs. a warrior of sufficient skill, so if you decide to make it that way that's YOUR decision. Nobody else has to be accountable for it.

>>54153455
Yet us say D&D 5e until faggot gives us an answer.

>>54153413
By being waaaaaay more numerous?

By declaring them heretics and witches and stirring up frenzy against amongst the common people, giving them no quarter anywhere and forcing them into hermitude where they can be picked off alone?

Cavalry charges and ambushes too fast for them to react to?

>>54153413
>Casters can do all the bullshit ever
>Regular people have nothing and are not even allowed to use actually intelligent methods to deal with the bullshit

This is a bad scenario and you're a bad person.

>>54153413
In the Late Medieval/Early Modern eras, soldiers swung swords, volleyed arrows, and fired guns.

In those eras, anyone claiming to be a wizard was put into a sanitarium.

>>54153413
In a world where magic is possible, no modern limitations clearly apply. Therefore a nonmagical hero should likewise be able to manage grand and epic feats.

I mean, a real world human would struggle taking on a bear on their own, but then you've got these stories of knights triumphing against gigantic, flying, fire-breathing dragons.

A good wizard could take on those Late Medieval countries you brought up as an example, but that's all right, because a proper hero guy can too. Just send him against the wizard and then keep well clear while he takes care of it.

>>54153413
They can't do it in D&D.

>>54153544
>but then you've got these stories of knights triumphing against gigantic, flying, fire-breathing dragons.
They wewereer actually rarely bigger than a dog in most artwork

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>>54153413
>What can regular humans do against that?

Generally casters are rare, either due to the level of study/education needed or because their abilities are inherent.

Casters can only fireball so many men in the time it takes to close with them. Even if they're powerful enough to wipe out entire armies, being attacked constantly would rapidly fatigue them too, even if they repelled every attack with ease, a few thousand men attacking groups of ten every half hour or so will exhaust even a godlike caster in a matter of days, simply by denying them a chance to rest.

That's not even taking into account that martials can usually get hold of magic-resistant equipment or have access to non-magical but still superhuman feats.

>>54153558
>They can't do it in the only version of D&D, out of 6-8, that I am personally familiar with.
Naw, anon, go fuck yourself.

>>54153579
He said "stories" not "artwork". Medieval artists didn't have a great track record with scale and perspective.

>>54153621
They can't do it in any version of D&D.

>>54153544
>you've got these stories of knights triumphing against gigantic, flying, fire-breathing dragons.
>a real world human would struggle taking on a bear on their own

Knights Errant are rarely depicted engaging dragons mano a mano with their bare hands.

A real world human with a destrier and lance will shit all over a bear in pretty much any scenario that doesn't involve the bear ambushing them.

>wizards can kill small groups of people standing close together when they're awake, rested, prepared and can see them

wew
It's time for ambushes, assassinations, and archers, everywhere. Will the mundanes lose a few people when a wizard happens to have a ward or alarm up now and then? Absolutely. But if it takes 10 assassination attempts to kill a wizard, and you have 100 assassins, it's a bargain.

>>54153658
>ambushes
divination
>assassinations
divination
>archers
there's like a dozen anti-arrow spells

>>54153413
The wizards have whatever counters you want them to have anon. If you want them to be vulnerable, give them vulnerabilities.

Here's an easy one: even the simplest spells take at least 10 seconds to cast. Early modern soldiers have guns.

>>54153579

The idea behind that old art was that dragons were terrifyingly badass nigh-invincible killing machines, but were rendered almost nothing before the power of God in the form of pious devotion. It's symbolism, people were still scared shitless by rumors of dragons.

>>54153649
>Charging a bear
>Not using an arbalest like actual masterrace knights

It's like you want to lose a horse to a dumb beast.

>>54153686
In what setting?

Ive always liked the idea that there is no cap on human ability in fantasy settings, epic level martials are basically demi gods.

>>54153640
That is not the case in Basic, in all of it's variations, 2e until you break past epic and even then you have a solid run for money, 4e period, and 5e has yet to be seen how it will shake out in the end.
No, anon, your fantasy is simply that.

>>54153455
Sorry about that. In my setting, magic casters are a rare occurrence. Most are commoners that can't afford the education required wield their powers in a disciplined, relatively-safe and practical manner. The potency of their powers grows from birth and 'stabilises' around adulthood, and is inherited from their parents. Most magic-casters are comparable to low-level D&D wizards, unable to accomplish much.

The top-rate wizards aren't overpowered. They can't summon asteroids from the sky, and there are no omnipotent gods with which they can smite people with. For example, their 'healing' is just accelerating cell growth/repair, and doing it too much can cause malignant cancer. Their strength with fire spells are comparable to being a walking M2 flamethrower, but their flames aren't any hotter.

Science also applies. For example, my players regularly deflect lightning/electricity-based spells by sticking daggers/swords/metal rods into the ground a safe distance away from their characters.


wizard that
>>54153510

>>54153686
Depends on the system. Divination doesn't give guaranteed results in all editions.

Plus, every slot spent on divination is a slot not spent on battle magic.

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Another caster v martial thread? Time to post my homebrew! This game features casters and martials held in near perfect balance, while keeping them entirely different.

>>54153772
>My wizards are like low-level D&D wizards and not all that impressive
>Casters can toss fireballs, shoot lightning, levitate boulders, raise the dead, heal themselves

So which one is it? Anyway, if the case is that at most you can expect them to cause some mayhem in their immediate space, just shoot them in the face with something.

>>54153772
>>54153510
My players and regular people in the setting are encouraged to be tactically-intelligent. They come up with some nice stuff from time to time, and it's nice. Suicidal frontal charges aren't preferred over the classic smallpox 'blanket', poisoned drink, assassination in an enemy tent, or convincing friendly bombards to redirect their fire to the general vicinity of a spotted battlemage.

>>54153808
>Plus, every slot spent on divination is a slot not spent on battle magic.
Except they have more than one person's worth of slots.

>>54153831
Which part of 'drown them in bodies' have you missed?

>>54153839
Do you know how many spell slots wizards get?

>>54153686
And how many spell slots? Quantity is a quality all its own.

>>54153828
Then why are you handing out bonus points for not using those tactics to handle the scenario?

What exactly is the point of this thread if you already know how to do it in your setting and there's no real problem or imbalance and it works for your group? Just confused, is all.

>>54153413
Nothing.
This is going to look like dominions 4. Most military resources are pumped into training wizards. Armies without mage support get wrecked like modern armies without guns.

>>54153814
OP here. A lot of countries in my setting that have developed national armies (similarly to Gustavian Sweden) have soldiers (functioning like modern snipers) dedicated to spotting and sniping battlemages when they don't expect it.

>>54153910
Basically I came here because I need ideas. I thought that maybe someone on this thread will think up something new that my players would coincidentally use.

The game flows a lot smoother for everyone when I have an idea of how to satisfyingly react to something in advance instead of spending 10-20 minutes thinking on the spot.

>>54153878
26.

>>54153960

You're asking the question in a very vague manner that requires a lot of elaboration and skirting dangerously close to martials vs casters arguments which never produce anything worthwhile.

It honestly sounds like you know enough about these things to make it work and have considered most of the things anyone here is going to suggest. If you already know how all the underhanded means work and direct assaults are just direct assaults, and have a handle on your wizards' powers, I don't really know what I could tell you.

I dunno. Maybe they'll try herding dozens of war dogs at the wizards?

Do Wizards prepare spells in your game, op?

>>54153640
I ran a 1st editon D&D campaign for years, transitioning to 2nd, and I didn't find mages hard to contain at all. Admittedly we only tended to play to 10th-12 levels before restarting but throw in enough magic resistant critters and golems and martials suddenly became very relevant. Limit the ability to mages to find any spell they want and you restrict their power, too. Yeah, some mages were hard to get to because of things like Mirror Image on top of Stoneskin but at the levels we played at they were hardly invincible.

>>54153914
Which means you've answered your own question in the OP. How do these soldiers defeat wizards? Through learning how to identify and eliminate wizards from a long distance.

What was the point of this thread?

>
Science also applies. For example, my players regularly deflect lightning/electricity-based spells by sticking daggers/swords/metal rods into the ground a safe distance away from their characters.

There's nothing sciencey about this, considering the way lightning works in fantasy as some sort of a directed magical attack is already against all laws of physics and seriously misinteprets what lightning is and why it strikes.

Why does putting up a piece of metal help against some sort of a magical lightning strike that can be directed at the caster's desired target, already violating the principles of how lightning strikes work?

>>54153413
>What can regular humans do against that?
We've discussed this:
1. Use extreme levels of skill.
2. Use charm to utilize the skill of others.
3. Use superior knowledge, gear, technology, and beastary.
4. Use magic and/or magic accessories.

>>54153960
>Basically I came here because I need ideas. I thought that maybe someone on this thread will think up something new that my players would coincidentally use.
So the real question is:
I am not good at improvising, what are some of the ways I can expect my players to use to defeat NPC wizards so that I might anticipate them?
That's a kind of thread some anons might fun to hash out.
Good luck.

>>54153413

Easy. You shoot them with arrows, and then they die.

The secret wizards don't want you to know is that each wizard only knows a single spell. The bargain they make with satan for magic is a simple deal. One soul to trade, one spell to learn.

So a group of wizards is dangerous, but a single wizard can either heal OR throw fireballs OR stop arrows. Once you realize the one and only spell that Satan gave them, you just have to play around that. Sometimes this means throwing your men into a meat grinder until one of them gets a shot off on the defenseless wizard, but that's the price you pay.

This is the way it works in absolutely all fictional settings that not only have been written, but can ever be written. Anyone who says otherwise is a servant of Satan trying to deceive you. Do not believe his lies.

I hope that settles the matter.

>>54154235
Maybe magic lightning works like an electrolaser - a directed high-conductivity channel

In which case, to reduce lighting damage you need to make it ground through something other than you. Thick boots might help.

If you wanted to design an-anti-wizard outfit, maybe something like an asbestos surcoat/cape ensemble with silver or copper thread/fixings on it, and thick sturdy boots - you don't catch on fire unless there's a fuel source being poured on you, and lightning earths around your outside rather than through your armour (though enough padding between you and your armour might do that naturally, but it might get hot)

Magic works best on things that have been affected by magic before. Matter itself seems to remember its touch.

So a warrior who abstains from all magic, uses no magic items or mystical elixirs, can shrug off spells like the parlor tricks that they are. And a sword of pure, mundane steel, crafted through time and by honest hard work, can pierce magical wards if wielded by such a man.

>>54153686
>Cast a divination spell
>Learn you're going to be ambushed on your way to the battle
>Cower inside your tower all day instead
>Your side loses

>>54153413
>wizards wat do?
Conan.

>>54155449
Are you the kind of retard who'd do this? It's no wonder you feel so insecure about wizards.

The answer is to just change your route.

>>54153960
If your players come up with some clever tactic to defeat your spellcaster using their mundane abilities, then you should just let them.

Then you can adapt and see if that's a feasible enough strategy that other wizards would be prepared for it, and they just got lucky, or if it's genuinely something there wouldn't be a great counter for.

Just going to say though, the sort of game where the DM says it's going to be no/low magic, everyone rolls up with martials, and then suddenly every other enemy is a min-maxed wizard is a terrible game. Nobody likes that sort of bait and switch, especially if you're using 3.5 style magic where casters are gods. Having magic be NPC only is fine, but only if the players sign up for it and know that they won't be missing out on too much or be getting curbstomped because you customized every wizard to perfectly defeat them.

>>54155509
>The answer is to just change your route.
>Change your route
>Instead of going down the road you're wandering through the forest with your escort
>Show up to the battle late
>Your side still loses

Knowing that something is going to happen does not guarantee that you have a workaround that still makes sure everything goes as well as if that thing weren't going to happen.

>>54155509
>cast a divination spell
>now you are a spell slot down
>now the enemy mages have the advantage

Omniscient, omnipotent wizards are sewage; and one of the main thematic counters has always been defined abilities and resource management.

>>54155605
>nuh uhhh, it doesnt work!!!
I'm not replying to you after this post.

>>54155643
>see that there's going to be traffic on your fastest route to work
>wonder why you still show up late when you have to go the long way around

(you) too

>>54153413
>How can someone who has to follow the laws of nature and physics fight someone who gives the middle finger to all of that
They can't. Anything more insightful anon?

>>54153828
>My players and regular people in the setting are encouraged to be tactically-intelligent
Your players can't be smarter than wizards who are the smartest people around, otherwise you're metagaming.

>>54155606
>Cast a divination ritual
>You don't spend spell slot
>At best you spend some gold...if only

>>54153413
>Casters can toss fireballs, shoot lightning, levitate boulders, raise the dead, heal themselves, and so on.
like a couple times a day if we're using Vancian magic

>>54153450
>Casters can toss fireballs, shoot lightning, levitate boulders, raise the dead, heal themselves, and so on.

>>54155770
Someone doesn't know how to basic optimize

>>54155812
Which also depends on how frequently or often they can do those things. Can they toss 100 fireballs in a minute like a machine gun? Can they raise all of the dead on the planet at once? Does levitating boulders take a 12 hour ritual of sitting on the boulder and only allow you to raise it vertically a few feet? Can they heal a maximum of one small scratch per day?

OP is obviously implying 3.5, but he should know full well what the answer is already, which is jack shit.

>>54153413

Depends what the limitations on the casters are. If a caster can chuck pebbles, heal small cuts, and throw candlefires, they aren't really all that dangerous. If casters take an hour to pop off a spell, they're useless in battle. If spells are risky or expensive to use, then they become backup tools instead of primary ones. In all these cases, the martial is going to be doing most of the work, and the mage might be a utility force.

We're all used to games like d&d where a caster can basically pop off any effect they care to, within a few seconds, with no real costs except their limited spell slots, which most GMs will never properly challenge them with. Magic is therefore cheap, risk-free, predictable, and powerful - the best of every world. Tweak any of these and you have a more balanced game.

>>54155764
>Your magic and an offering put you in contact with a god or a god’s servants. You ask a single question concerning a specific goal, event, or activity to occur within 7 days. The DM offers a truthful reply. The reply might be a short phrase, a cryptic rhyme, or an omen.

>The spell doesn’t take into account any possible circumstances that might change the outcome, such as the casting of additional spells or the loss or gain of a companion.

>If you cast the spell two or more times before finishing your next long rest, there is a cumulative 25 percent chance for each casting after the first that you get a random reading. The DM makes this roll in secret.

there's enough holes in this spell to slip an army through.

wizards don't even get the spell

>>54155867
>that feat that allowed to get TWO spells slots of a one level lower than the one you spent
Spend a 5th level spell slot? get two 4th level ones, and so on. Man, I did a char with that and was uberbroken, and it was just a Duskblade, imagine a Wizard

>>54155930
I always do see people suggest Divination as a way for Wizards to get the level of preparedness necessary to do all this, but I never see people actually list off the Divination spells that are helpful for doing so.

I guess there's scrying, but even that's limited to viewing a location you know about. That wouldn't help for a random ambush along a road unless you scryed every section of the road. And even that doesn't help if they show up later on a piece you already checked.

>>54155930
>Using 5e
I thought we were using worst editions, as in the ones where a wizard really is above of mundanes
>>54155975
Divination wizard gets other nice things than just spells, anon, features are also nice

For example, PF divination wizard is almost impossible to beat in Ini or to surprise him, and that just from features, not spells

>>54153413

In a system/setting with more defined limits on magic, like Symbaroum for example, magic is a potent force but ultimately runs into barriers where too much use in a single instance results in corruption of the user, which is hard to mitigate and nearly impossible to permanently get rid of.

It's also pretty low on power, where specific offensive spells range from as potent as a bow and arrow to maybe three times as much, but the risk of gaining corruption increases as much, so a single powerful spell might push you to near your corruption threshold and anything beyond that is risking permanent corruption. Worst case scenarios on exceptionally bad rolls mean you might find yourself having cast two or three spells before you start risking permanent corruption.

Outside of that, there's many very utilitarian spells that add a good deal of variety to the team, and many defensive spells that can put the caster on par with Martials for defense, but do reduce their ability to act offensively.

So while a caster might have advantage when it comes to offense in the short term, but they also have the option to burn themselves to death or near death to get much more power out of it and afterwards become much more weakened as they have to keep their threshold down or end up dead anyway. Martials have no such worries and can fight very consistently in an extended combat, dealing more regular damage and having better defenses that don't require incurring corruption.

>>54153413
1. Praise (Abel) Christ
2. Punch a wizard through space and time with the power of your muscular body, artifacts and TRAINING

Worked to kill races of superhuman elves who are just sightly weak to pure fucking iron (since most soldiers are level 3+ and all wizards or psions) and a full no-real-downsides race of wizard elves among many irrelevant ones.

>>54155509
>Change route.
>Better check again to be sure
>Prepare another divination spell
>Still gonna get attacked.
>Maybe they're watching me.
>Prepare a spell to find out whose watching me, plus one to prevent it from happening again.
>Divine path to battle, nice and safe.
>The battle happened two days ago, we lost.

>>54153763
5e shits the martial bed.
5e is just 3.5 lite.

>>54156225
>The battle happened two days ago, we lost.
Why do martialfags always make these ridiculous assumptions? I guess there's nothing else they can use.

>>54156246
Nah, not really. 5e no longer has it where having spells is automatically better than not having spells across the board for all classes.

Plus outside of higher level gimmicks casters in general have less raw power.

>>54156270
There are other systems, but the average person still not banning non-casters classes from the (rare) 3.5/pf/other clones game they play has slight brain damage to say the least.

>Inb4 butthurt retards
Everything a martial can do, a caster can also do and have more options in 3.5 and it's little family of brain damaged pets.

>>54156270
>My Wizard can sit around in his tower and dawdle while there's a war going on

Is the idea that being cautious and careful to avoid ambushes would mean going slower than going recklessly down the fastest route?

>>54156284
As said "lite", still has the core issue of martials having very little out of combat utility if not spec'd for it particularly.

I mean, fixes the actual huge glaring issue of 3.5 no good DMing/story telling/hand waving can fix, which is to say 9293729 bagzillion assorted splats and UAs and other stuff, which is fun, because options, but sucks because you end up with 23728 million PDFs for a line of text.

>>54156312
In his defense.
>War
>Won in "2 days"
>Not months
>If you need wizards for it, you sure as fuck don't let them come alone and you scout your heavy artillery to the battlefield
Anon...

>>54156270
>Time sensitive objectives are ridiculous
>Pretending to be utterly undefeatable due to batman esque preparedness, ignoring spell limitations, is not.

Go play Calvinball or something, if actual problem solving is too much for you.

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>>54153413
Shoot him. Burn the body.

>>54156335
>War
>Won in "2 days"

We were saying battle a battle can certainly be won in two days. And,of course you can have scouts and bodyguards to help protect the wizard, but do you really think Mr. 'My divination can see all!' will accept the help?

Even if he does, that's just accepting the fact that martials would still be important in warfare, since the ambush is still a threat that is most easily countered with some numerous mundane scouts.

>>54156381
Wind wall

>>54156246

Shitty oversimplification. 5e made several changes to curb caster potential. It's by no means a 3e clone.

>>54153544
Magical nemeses (and they were almost always villains) were usually depicted as being inferior to normal heroes, too, losing in direct confrontations where the hero would just no-sell their gay magic with the power of will (or god, depends on the era).

>>54156335
Big difference between a battle and a war, bud.

>>54156398
Sorry, you didn't know I was there. No time for your gay magic fart.

>>54156398
320 stealth 320 hide before dice.

>>54156222
/thread

>>54156398
not a wizard spell in 5e

>>54156225
>meanwhile, an army without wizards would have just walked into an ambush and fucking died
Wow, really sticking it to those dumb wizards.

>>54156431
>Sorry, you didn't know I was there. No time for your gay magic fart.
Hahahaha, divination wizard, can't be caught by surprise and I always win initiative.

>>54155975
>I never see people actually list off the Divination spells that are helpful for doing so.
This.
In theory, it could be a significant advantage.
But mostly, I've seen it presented as a magic crystal ball with infinite daily uses.

>>54156335
The fact that Martials have more skills and the fact that a lot of the spells that were used in place of skills aren't as good and dont completely circumvent obstacles helps a lot.

While a Wizard could use all his spell slots on charms, illusions, invisibility and knock and pretend to be a Rogue, he'll have to deal with all the downsides of those. Furthermore, while a Wizard can replace a Rogue, he can't replace a Rogue while simultaneously replacing a Fighter or doing all of the standard things you'd want a Wizard for.

There is still somewhat of a gap, but it's no longer so simple and clean. A Rogue offers far better utility and combat skill than a Sorcerer, at least in the sense that the Sorcerer can only really focus on one and won't be as good if splitting his focus.

>>54156469
PF is not allowed

>>54156501
Schrodinger's wizard exists though, not in the way most people think aka "I always have the best spell for every situation" but as "I have this spell, that is the second or third best spell for tons of situations, saving losts of spell slots by only preparing it a couple of times".

>>54156413
How so?
Cuts the most blatant exploits (I'm not going to get into simulacrum dipshit crap and >muh economy because that is one of the moments you either roll with the stupid or you slap a player and you all agree to make a pact on it, happens to all systems and non-uber competitive games).
Main issues, on little to no martials options out of combat and said incombat options got gutted (never forget mastery dice for all)

While some of those are because the more narrative approach to the game (see improvised action), you're still having little to no things to do in combat unless you're a specific caster/half caster or a specific fighter archetype.

If, after all these fucking years, you don't grasp them... Please get a trip.

>>54156480
Martials don't get particularly more skills than casters, so the point is moot there, if you told me "All martials get, by default X more skills than casters, any caster, no questions asked" I'd believe you.

That said proficiency is pretty much useless because how low it is, which further makes the point moot.

The utility point is retarded as all fuck, since all classes get the same skills except ones focused on skills, regardless of being casters, or not.

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>It's another D&Drones flail about their shit system
Tell me again how great DM'ing was
>He prepared the undead spell set!
>Time to make them fight celestials hehehe
>Oh, I better exhaust his spells so the rest of the party can play this siiiiick combat system of full attack spam!
Jesus what a trainwreck of a system.

>>54156574

Spells tied to spell level only, spells tied to concentration, most save or suck effects removed, many individual spells tweaked to be lesser versions of themselves, as a start. Massive gameplay differences from those alone.

Martials have plenty to do. Fighters and monks have their own resources to spend through ki and maneuvers. The rogue is dancing around with bonus actions and lining up reactions. Everyone has their optimal range and positions to get to. And with the changes to spells, skill checks from these classes matter a lot more than before.

I'm not sure about your games, but in mine, people are pretty satisfied across the board with in and out of combat options to play with. The casters aren't automagically solving every problem, but they greatly expand the options of the party, which is really the point.

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>>54156717
>Martials have plenty to do.

>>54156717
>Still doesn't grasp the issue

Jesus, get the trip buddy, like right now. And tell me this plenty of martials thing to do, and don't you fucking say DM may I may I, because then I might as well play fate if I'm going to DM May I may I after every fucking action I want to make so the DM has to stop and think if I fucking may or may not.

The issue is that non-casters are bound to DM may I may I without a framework or full attack spam in combat, outside of combat to DM May I May I after they bullshit an answer, while still being severely tied to reality or pseudo reality.

There is also the permanent class system problem of shit ability to progress your character outside his beaten path.

>>54156574
The difference in skills with 3.5 is that Wizards no longer get 6 skills thanks to high Int while fighters get 2 if they're lucky. Everyone aside from the skill monkeys are on a level playing field there, and with skills being generally more useful as utility and spells being generally weaker than they were, it helps Martuals stack up better.

Again, it's a matter of comparing a Rogue to a Sorcerer. The Rogue is a much better class overall, and can be so evrn without the subclass that grants spells. The fact that a full mundane class is better than a full caster gets across my point quite well.

Spells help. They aren't bad to have, but they are no longer the singular deciding factor like they were in 3.5

>>54156717
>Fighters and monks have their own resources to spend through ki and maneuvers
A kind of fighter does.

KYS.

Bring back superiority dice for all classes.

>>54156469
Please list the spells you are using that grant you immediate awareness without skill checks of anyone that's with shooting distance, regardless of how they are hiding themselves.

'Divination' is not an acceptable answer. Please list the spells that you are using.

>>54156717
>ki and maneuvers
Ah yes, the incredible ability to tack on a modifier to your attack a few times per rest. How generous of the developers.

>>54156805
>This ability to make special attacks X times per long rest is pretty cool and fun
>But this ability to make special attacks Y times per short rest? Boring!

>>54153413

Genuinely, a martial artist should theoretically get into close combat with the Wizard. A lightning bolt or fire ball is akin to a spear or a trebuchet.

As long as he can dodge and avoid the hits, he will suffer no damage. It is difficult, yes, but all he has to do is move like the wind for long enough to get up close and personal and then sock the wizard right in the mouth.

It would be a lot harder obviously and may seem really stupid but it is one of the only legit ways I can think of.

One way of doing so is diverting the wizard by having him concentrate on other threats so the fighter/knight/martial artist CAN make it safely to him and hopefully before he notices, they can take him down.

Special armour or items that help deal against magic based attacks and spells would also be of a big use. Can have your epic fantasy battle without your epic fantasy help!

>>54156789
>Spells
Forewarned: 1st level. You can always act in the surprise round even if you fail to make a Perception roll to notice a foe, but you are still considered flat-footed until you take an action. In addition, you receive a bonus on initiative checks equal to 1/2 your wizard level (minimum +1). At 20th level, anytime you roll initiative, assume the roll resulted in a natural 20.

Plus compsognatus familiar (+4 to ini).

Spells he said, kek, like I'm going to waste them on not being surprised

>>54156851
Are you seriously putting spells on the same level as maneuvers? That's like comparing a gun to a country.

Fire a cannon at them. I hope they like having a hole for a belly.

>>54156765
>Everyone is on an even field!
Yes and casters and I repeat the word CASTER gets the uphand via cantrips he can spam or spells he can burn as resources (although it's doubtful he does as it's doubtful a barbarian burns rage to lift a door). Also the fact proficiency is nearly useless, it's not bad, but not great.

And again, the problem is that you don't even the playing field, you slap the baaaad caster on the wrist (wizard wasn't the real 3.5 issue except in your gitp, keep ignoring mr. fullplate of upgraded fighter and holy wrath caster and angry-bear-of-not-dying-and-murder) while not fixing the underlying issue.

Jesus fuck you D&Drones are mentally damaged at this point, nothing can get through you skull, I thank god every day I no longer play this system except on friends asking me to, these threads reminds me why.

>>54156805
Don't forget, they nearly blessed all martials with it, luckily they understood it to be too anime and OP and NOT D&D! Thank be upon the mearls who bash the anime everyone-is-a-wizard 4e and other heretical systems!

>>54156851
>Do X greatly impacting things a day and also get these random utility things such as useless mage hand or detect magic or any other cantrip (more like can't trip! they're sooo bad!!)
vs
>This thing a class gets, but it's trash and it's only used to stun and not much else without feeling like crap or this thing only an archetype gets (but all martials where going to)

>>54156891
It's a D&D player anon, useless to discuss just see him waddle in his shitty system and cry and yell when the answer is simple as don't play fucking D&D.

>>54156764

> get the trip buddy, like right now

Nah, I'm done. Telling me everything is terrible while my players are being effective and having fun hasn't really made a convincing case. This "may I may I" crap is completely out of left field, since the mechanics are literally right there in the rules. Keep shitting salt I guess.

>>54156874
That's just fucking bullshit

>>54156874
Congratulations on being a very specific sort of wizard then. It must be entertaining to always play any sort of spellcaster as that sort of wizard in order to not be surprised.

Also, holy shit I forgot how busted Pathfinder casters were. In 5e, that sort of bullshit would be the capstone ability of an archetype, not something you get as a participation reward for being a caster.

>>54156941
>Explained multiple times the D&D issues, actual balance never touched nor exploits
>By multiple people
>Still doesn't get it
Not an argument D&Dlet.

>>54156970
Dude, literally no other wizard that isn't Conjurer or Diviner, rest are just shit. Due how important combat is and how definity being the first and not being surprised is in 3.PF, Diviner is never ever a bad choice.

>>54156900
>Yes and casters and I repeat the word CASTER gets the uphand via cantrips he can spam or spells he can burn as resources

A Rogue will deal far more damage than a cantrip from a Sorcerer. The Sorcerer also will know a grand total of 15 spells by the end of the game. He can spend his spell slots to try and match the Rogue's damage, or try and spend them to match the Rogue's utility, but won't have the versatility or spell slots available to do both.

THIS is what I'm trying to get through your thick skull. Being a CASTER is not what makes some of these classes strong.

Unless you're going to try and sit here and argue that Ranger, Sorcerer, and the 4Elements monk are some of the strongest classes in the game?

>>54153544
>no modern limitations can apply
Except when I say they do

>>54157007
>still can't read or comprehend the issue
>M-MUH DEMEGH!!! THO!!! MUH DEMEGH!!!

What utility *Out of combat* does martial get to compensate for cantrips and ritual spells?

D&Dlets, proving D&D causes brain rot since 2003!

>>54156970
>Congratulations on being a very specific sort of wizard then
You're forced to choose a school in PF (or be universalist which is pure garbage) whatever you do you have to be "a very specifc sort of wizard", it doesn't remove anything from you though, it only gives you stuff, and some, like Divination, give you so much good stuff is hard to pass.

>>54157003
Boy, I sure miss the "90% of the content we write is a trap option" design philosophy of 3.PF.

>>54157089
I agree, with my whole post (since ahahaha Ima diviner) just wanted to prove how unfair and shitty 3.PF is. And even though 5e is still slightly unbalanced, is nowhere near the bullshit levels of 3.PF

>>54157076
Shut the fuck up and listen you brainlet.

SPELLS

IN 5E

ARE NOT

A GUARANTEE

OF POWER

What spells do the Ranger or 4Elements monk get to make up for Rogue's expertise or class features?

>b-but those aren't FULL casters

Then use Sorcerer if you prefer. But simply saying 'muh spells' 'muh casters' over and over again when you can't understand why that doesn't automatically equal godhood anymore makes you look retarded.

>>54153413
Simple, get someone to perform "The act of moving inside of thine skin" by "The linked parks" and wait for the nemesistards to show up.

Pay them in burn clothing in exchange to kill the wizard you dislike.

>>54157210
So your argument is
>I will ignore this because it breaks my argument that 5e is perfectly balanced and good!!
>And proceed to say the worst designed class and the worst archetype as my arguments
Ok.
Not an argument yet D&Dlet, tell me what I'm supposed to do out of combat as a barbarian vs the sorcerer, remember he can have dancing lights, create bonfire, prestidigitation (best spell in this game btw), and many more! Bringing more utility innately than my entire class does without burning resources.

Go ahead, I will sit here and listen to you make up retarded excuses such as "muh demeg" when damage wasn't even on the discussion.

Tell me, innately what your "2 more skills" compare with the cantrips of a bard who also gets 3 skills, or the cantrips of a druid, or even, a sorcerer.

Of course, your only answer will be "DM may you make up a framework for this action I wish to perform that is never spoken of in the books hence slowing the game while you homebrew something for me to be useful" vs "I pick up the keys with mage hand" or "I use dancing lights to illuminate the dark hallway" as examples.

So instead of continuing the endless cycle of bitching and complaining, how would YOU bump martials up to the same place as casters mechanically? Hard mode: You can't change casters.

>>54157456
Supernatural charisma and/or a varied supernatural skillset with better skill rules.

>>54157456
Every martial class gets superiority dice from the 5e Battlemaster, with powerful maneuvers that suit the class.

>>54157344
>So your argument is

I've been saying my argument over and over and you're still not getting it.

Saying 'casters are still overpowered in 5e' is wrong, because that implies that the ability to cast spells is what is the sole determining factor in power level, when that's clearly not the case.

If casters are OP, then why is the one Monk archetype that gets the most spells the weakest out of all of them? If casters are OP, then why is the worst class in the game still bad despite getting spells?

That's what you're not getting.

> he can have dancing lights, create bonfire, prestidigitation (best spell in this game btw), and many more!

You mean 1 more, because Sorcerers only start with 4 cantrips?Oh, and guess what else? Totem Barbarians actually get two ritual spells, which is notable as Sorcerers don't get any rituals at all.

So if cantrips and rituals are all you need to be an OP caster, then I guess Sorcerer and Barbarian are both only half-baked when it comes to that.

But in the end? Cantrips are more convenience than any real utility.

>create bonfire

Survival skill or just using a torch. I've never seen anyone actually get asked to roll for lighting a fire.

>I pick up the keys with mage hand

I open the lock with Rogue expertise

>I use dancing lights to illuminate the dark hallway

I use a torch like a normal person, or just be a race with Darkvision, which is basically all of them.

This is how little Cantrips actually matter for utility.

>>54153413
They can't unless you have a setting where things work differently than the norm.
In my setting metal really super fucks with magic to the point where a novice guy in plate could "disrupt" a novice mages fire ball by hitting it with a steel sword, and even if he got hit the plate would only get hot.
I also let martials get to use their od (life energy/ki) to preform bursts of super human feats, though the novice would not be able to do much at all yet. There is also magic gear for them to use, some with runes that let them do some cool shit.

>>54156469
Sorry, divination doesn't work like that. You looked the wrong way and got shot anyway. You had jhust enough time to realize you pissed your dress before dying.

>>54153413
run fast

>>54157699
I don't think you actually know how the divination school wizard works in pf.

>>54153413
>How could normal low-magic/early-level mages (Escapist or Self-inserts) pragmatically counter or defeat warriors on the battlefield? Warriors can deflect fireballs, dodge lightning, tank boulders, one-hit KO the dead, heal themselves, and so on. What can regular mages do against that?
>Bonus points: Think of methods that don't involve assassinations out of battle, long-range artillery bombardment, or infecting warriors with anthrax, smallpox, or bubonic plague

>>54153413
So I ran this out in savage worlds and more likely than not the knight dies before closing the distance assuming a wide open field, and assuming the main offensive spell being cast was fireball. Of course that accounts for 0 battlefield conditions.

In fact this would be so much of a threat (horse in a wizard, pop off the aoe, pick him back up, then horse in another wizard, much akin to early chariot unit swapping tactics), that I'd wager any army worth its salt would have multiple small archer sections (you don't need a lot), whose only job is to take an aim action, drop into hold, and attempt to interrupt and fire at anything they see start to glow in the enemy's lines. If only 2 out of X arrows hit on average that caster is either dropping his spell or dead

Depending on the mass battle rules in effect a player character wizard has a greater chance than an extra at swinging a battle in their favor, but so does a pc knight. 1v1 a player character knight is much more likely to close the distance and jam a lance upside a equivelent player character wizard's ass

Same applies to early modern warfare, except with less of a range advantage to the wizard

Really wizards are best used for covert operations away from the front lines. Especially during early modern where a pyromancer could pose a huge risk to powder supplies

Divination is cool and all, but to make proper use of it you need to be heroic which is such a high level that such a wizard would be really uncommon. It also at best (cast with a raise) gives you 5 words worth of answer. Conceal arcana is a beginner level spell that counters it, and regardless if it is cast any living targets of divination can oppose the caster's roll potentially knowing they're being watched in the process. So it certainly can be used in warfare, by less than a handful of people, whom have 4-6 shots at it a day, and likely need to make multiple successful rolls just to get actionable intel

>>54153413
If you're not going to let the martials have reality-bending nice things with no major restrictions, you'd better not expect them to go up against those that do while having restrictions on their actions.
Fuck wizards and weeb melee wizards anyways, mostly because I'm tired of dealing with building a reasonable setting around them.

>>54153413
Low level wizards? They would defeat them using mostly the same methods they'd use to defeat any other foe.
High level wizards? They wouldn't even stand a chance.

>>54153413
The way I handle it in my setting is that everyone has access to at least some degree of magic. Some choose it to be pure, some others learn to apply it to their fighting style. Sure, wizards can cast fireballs and crack the ground, but fighters are fast as hell, can stand their ground, can hit projectiles back with their magic-laced swords, can jump 10ft into the air in under a second and strike down just as fast.

Magic, minor or major, is everyone's tool.

>>54158650
>Of course that accounts for 0 battlefield conditions.
Battlefield condition make a huge difference.

>>54158806
Yep, chances are more advantage to the wizard making them more likely to get off one of their 2-3 horrific napalm blasts successfully. Especially because any difficult terrain will invalidate the speed penalty to hit from a full gallop and potentially the movement requirements for proper ass lancing though that's still pretty likely if it actually gets that far.

>>54157456
Martials get their own ways to rape reality.

Wizard is flying, shielded and invisible? Cut a hole through air so that I'm now up there next to him, cut a thread in his spell so that it ends, then cut his knickers off with my mace from fifteen feet away because I can deal any type of damage I want with any weapon at any range I could reach in one round of walking. Maybe punch him in the dick, too.

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>>54157456
Weeaboo fightan magic

>>54157456
Assuming 5e as a baseline, I think it's really just a matter of adding in more options for Maneuvers and giving some of the martial classes more resources to use them with.

Ideally, there should be more subclasses that make use of Superiority die, and it should be a more sizable pool of smaller dice rather than a small pool of big dice. Make it so you can use the effects more frequently. Same with Ki from monks.

Then you just expand on it by adding in more utility based ways to spend the dice or ki, or just make it so that you can spend them to boost any physical skill check.

The key is to not do what 3.5 did though and lock certain things behind an ability that used to be essentially free. Any application to skills should be in the vein of instant success so it doesn't totally overshadow having the skill itself. Spend a superiority die, roll it, and then you take that much falling damage instead of whatever you would have. Or spend one and instantly jump 30 feet instead of having to roll. Just make having the skill or a high enough stat a prerequisite so you don't end up with people taking that one feat that lets you learn a couple maneuvers to be able to do a standing long jump while having 8s in everything physical

I would add onto this that skills as a whole should have a few more examples of things you can do with them. Contested checks with athletics is a good example of this with some of the maneuvers they have in the book, but I also feel they should flesh things out more. A good example is Medicine, which currently doesn't really do anything excess confirm that someone is hurt and let you use a Healer's kit. There should be a suggested DC for actually using it to restore wounds or to give someone some extra HP during a short rest.

Just generally a better indication for DMs and Players about the sort of power they can expect from a skill check.

>>54153413
>shields
>hope that shit's wooden
>more shields
>archers

also don't call knights n shit "martials" cus they aren't, aspie

>>54157491
Easiest way. If wizards can cast wish or summon meteors then martials should be similarly fantastic. Let the fighter hit his weapon against the ground and cause a massive earthquake. Let him swing his sword and create projectile blades from the air friction. Let him be able to leap tall buildings in a single bound. Otherwise don't let mages be so strong.

>>54153413
>toss fireballs
we are looking at a level 5 evoker here
a level 5 battlemaster would be able to kill such a wizard in a single round of attacking using maneuvers and action surge

at this level, a wizard does not have enough spell slots to create an impregnable fortress of magic

for the sake of the argument, they meet each other at a distance of 60ft, and did not have time to prepare, and neither surprise the other

if the wizard goes first, he could cast hold person, and the fighter only has a middling chance to resist, and after that the fighter take auto-crits for about 2-3 turns, enough to kill him

however an archer fighter would be far more likely to go first, and would very likely kill an equally leveled wizard before he can cast

a paladin would not be "hold person"ed easily, due to higher WIS, and smite allows for a high chance of causing a mortal wound in one hit, and so would also be good choice

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They roll to seduce. I know what you're thinking. Many casters have a high charisma score and would not lose in such situation. But in this fantasy world can't we just say that it works and just jerk it to the scenario of a buff knight fucking a decrepit old and wise wizard. The martial wins, the caster wins, we all win.

>>54153413
The only way I can think to put Casters on the same level as martial is if there's a WOD Mage-esque consensus on magic between a martial and a caster that can affect spellcasting, and if spell casting time is lengthened per spell level, becoming quicker to cast as the wizard levels up and prone to less failure, but can be broken if the wizard moves from their spot, or if the wizard his hit during casting which can sharply increase potential to botch the spell, fuck it up, leaving it to wild magic, or lower the effectiveness of the spell's caster level effect.

With that in mind, it's becomes imperative for Martials to strike the spellcaster first, with mages that use quicken metamagic being the most dangerous.

Wizards are initially, for support, which is why they SHOULD not really be that good in offense, especially at lower and mid levels. A wizards magic is more important to the wizard than what he does as an adventurer in an adventurer's party methinks.