Which Primarch had the most difficult upbringing?

>>54144536
Fulgrim. It's hard to be the best primarch hands down both in lore, stats, personality, appearance and fluff.

>>54144536

Konrad Curze grew up on the south side of chicago with no dad and had no education.

>>54144536
Perturabo. It's hard to be so smart and amazingly autistic that you can't relate to anyone.

>>54144536
Angron literally had spikes driven into his head and forced to be a gladiator. Nobody else is in the running.

>>54144536
If anyone says anything other than Angron they're retarded. I dont even like him but getting lobotomized at like 3 months old is impossilbe to beat.

>>54144782
Who even made the butchers nails anyway?

>>54144536
Does anyone else just see Angron as an angry manlet in this pic? I know he's leaning over and it makes him look shorter but I just can't unsee a tiny angry midget.

>>54144805

I actually like that idea. Like a bull dog or a Wolverine type.

>>54144804
The invention itself is only known to be DAoT stuff. That's why even the AdMech's best couldn't fix him.

And although the nails enough would make me rank him #1, there's also the matter of Emperor's absolute dick move robbing him of all he had left.

>>54144833
So sort of like Mortarion, if Mortarion were even remotely justified in feeling the way he did.

>>54144805
I believe thats actually the case. Doesnt help that he's standing next to Magnus though.

Didn't Mortarion basically breathe in toxic fumes for the entirety of his life

>>54144536
Who is standing between Dorn and the Khan?

>>54144862
Yes. And I do mean the entirety. Even when he had the option of not breathing in toxic fumes he went out of his way to keep doing it. He had his gear modified to keep the air he breathed polluted and poisonous.

>>54144912
Lorgar.

Curze had it pretty bad. I wonder if he would have stayed loyal if he hadn't had years of of psychologically damaging visions/nightmares. He was batshit crazy in the later years of his life.

>>54144923
Doesnt seem right. He doesnt have golden skin and why is he in white?

>>54144833
>This planet over here treated your actual son like dogshit
>Don't destroy it, even though you could
>This planet over here started worshipping you like a god
>Destroyed
One of these events happening is enough to make the Emperor seem reasonably flawed.
Both of them just makes the HH seem like daddy-issues bullshit.

The Lion was literally a feral child but Angron was probably the worst off.

>>54144945
The Word Bearers used to go in grey. Anyway look at him, his face is covered with scripture and he's got scrolls and shit pinned to him.

>>54144862

Mortarion is probably right behind Angron in terms of fucked up upbringings.

>raised by xenos sorcerer Overlord on a toxic planet
>humans treated like animals and turned into zombies for sport
>Emperor goads Mortarion into either submitting to him or defeating his adoptive father without even revealing who he is
>Mortarion forced to challenge the Overlord in an area so poisonous that it destroyed his armor and permanently fucked him up physically and mentally
>Emperor shows him up with an 'I told you so' and told him to get to work

The Lion grew up alone in a literal daemon world

At least Angron and Cruze were dealing with humans

The Emperor deserved what he got just by looking at how inconsistent and careless he was when finding a Primarch.

Some of them he shows up as the Emperor, in full regalia, retinue, the whole nine yards. Some of them he shows up as a stranger, and does dumb contests. Then there's shit like Angron where he could have easily had his legions touch down on the planet to satisfy Angron, or Mortarion where he tells him to pledge himself to a complete stranger or go win an impossible fight.

>>54145040
>Mortarion forced
That's not true. He only felt forced because he would rather die than ask for help, and desperately wanted to one up the new guy that showed up that everyone instantly liked. He was enormously proud and deeply insecure and crazy jealous. It's stupid to blame the Emperor for that.

Mortarion knew he couldn't defeat the Overlord of Barbarus, but he was determined to do the impossible because he hated the idea of someone else taking the credit for his glorious revolution. His own men tried to stop him, but he was having none of it, because he knew Emps was going to fix everything and he needed to be the one to do it first.

And after he failed, just like everyone told him he would, he never forgave the Emperor for showing up to save the day and denying him his big hero moment.

>>54145172
There are a lot of series where people write fanfiction to tweak little mistakes, but Warhammer needs an entire rewrite from the bottom up.

>>54145194
I swear people only like Mortarion because the death guard have strong rules.

>>54145266
I think there are things to like about Mortarion, but his motivation after his discovery was never one of them. Almost everything he did after that was for dumb reasons relating back to the moment the Emperor showed up and dared to help him. Among the handful of Primarchs that would have been way better off had the Emperor never found them, I'd say Mortarion easily tops that list.

>>54145266
Why do you think that?

I specifically Mortarion because he's a shitty person. I don't give a shit that he's not a heroic or brave character, I like that he's irreparably flawed in character--even beyond the whole Chaos stuff.

>>54145402
Honestly, after reading Dark Imperium, Mortarion's shitty character is almost canon; Typhus basically laughs in his face, tells him he fell to Chaos entirely because of Typhus' machinations, and that rather than being a champion of Nurgle, he was more of a trophy to how much of a dick Typhus was.

>>54145266
I love mortarion. He's stubborn, completely intractable, generally unpleasant, and suffers heavily because of it.

But his motivations are his own, rather than what the demon faggots in his ear tell him to do. Not that it did him any good when typhon bamboozled him, but again, him getting the shit kicked out of himself for his own mistakes is A+

mort and pert are best traitor bois

>>54144536
Lion El'Jonson is the only correct answer

>>54145131
>>54145578
Literally had chaos whispering in his ear for the first 10 years of his life and never caved.

>>54144536
Alpharius and only he knows the real reason why.

>>54144950

He was justified in both.

>destroying an entire world out of pure spite, one that's completely compliant once you take it over
>destroy a world that isn't compliant at all and breaks one of your golden rules that you've politely warned your son about over and over and over and over and over

>>54145635
That boy Lorgar just ain't right. Emps should have just dismissed Lorgar and exiled him somewhere. He was the total antithesis of everything the Imperium was supposed to stand for and making a big show of killing a planet wasn't going to change that.

And Perturabo should also have been relieved of duty after he gave the order to execute a tenth of his Legion for not being the very best, like no one ever was the very second he showed up.

t. not Girlyman

>>54145687

The Emperor's largest and one true mistake was not just killing the Prinarchs that were obviously damaged goods. Like there is zero reason to trust people like Angron and Curze with thousands of warriors and near-unlimited power.

>>54145726
Honestly? Gotta agree. He thought his kiddos would all come around and that none of them were really bad, and with his half assed guidance they'd all be just like if they'd never gotten kidnapped. I want to think as he's rotting away, having psychic kung fu battles in the warp, he regrets being so god damned arrogant and idealistic.

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>>54144536
Ferrus had things pretty rough, albeit it was intentional on his own part.

>>54145266
mortarion traded glory in the fluff for strong rules. Truly a loving father to allow himself to be humiliated repeatedly in lore while plague marines get to be decent in every edition.

>>54145726
He'd have killed a few of those that ultimately turned out loyal in that case, though.

I don't know how anyone can really argue anyone but Angron and Curze. Even between those two, Angron is the clear winner. Fucking space elves tried to murder him as a baby, he's enslaved immediately after, has his fucking brain cut into, then implanted with crazy space magic tech that drives him slowly insane. I mean, cmon man.

>>54145726
Totally right, he should have just offed at least Angron and Curze. Or possibly used them like one man armies ala massive transhuman assassins.

>>54145726
what do you guys think happened to number II and XI?

>>54145687
Lorgar had his uses. His worlds were incredibly loyal to the fledgling Imperium, something that was massively valuable at the time. If Imperial Truth was really the Truth, his worlds would have come around eventually. The Emperor handled Lorgar in the dumbest fucking way possible.

>>54145932
Short term it was useful, but it was really the beginning of the end. They were less loyal to the Imperium and more to Lorgar's woo-woo bullshit distortion of Imperial dogma, which of course came back to bite the Emperor in the ass hard with Lorgar. And how could it not have? It was a fundamental and irreconcilable difference in values.

Religious faith seemed like the biggest thing Emps wouldn't compromise on and it was everything Lorgar wanted. Without compromise how could he have handled Lorgar better besides to contain and isolate him?

>>54145931
I think they were intentionally left out of fluff to give players the legit option of muh original primarch/legion do not steal. They were purposefully left to the imagination so your guess is as good as anybody's.

>>54144536
The one with nails shoved into his skull and forced to fight as a gladiator.

not even close.

>>54145604
Loyalty is its own reward.

>>54145402
>>54145496
>>54145375
>>54145266

Mortarion is truly pitiable in a pathetic way. He is a daemon primarch that could be one of the most powerful and influential characters in the setting, but instead is a brooding wreck of a man who is not even the true champion of his patron god.

As a Death Guard player I kind of like this, as it's a weirdly nice feeling to pity your primarch and try defend him from the majority of people who hate him. But then you have to look at it realistically, side with Typhus and acknowledge that our primarch is just a fuck up.

>>54145799
>He thought his kiddos would all come around and that none of them were really bad
Sounds like he had a blind spot for his kids, but isn't BL also trying to make it canon that he never really cared about them?

>>54144536
Alpharius. You don't know the suffering he went through.

>>54146255
>You don't know the suffering he went through.
Neither does anybody else.

>>54146069
You are wrong. It's said that the other two Primarchs failed and that necessitated their erasure.

How they failed is a mystery but they were erased with such prejudice that the other Primarchs live in fear of their fate.

>>54146239
>but isn't BL also trying to make it canon that he never really cared about them?
>trying

It's already canon. Even before it was made official, the notion that the Emperor felt any sort of compassion or love for any of the Primarchs, aside from Horus, is just retarded at this point. The HH series has just fucked that idea out of existence.

>>54146265
I mean, that's the new canon explanation, but the explicitly stated original reason for there being two empty legion slots is what the anon said.

>>54146239
Conformed in the novels and outside the novels by authors but the degenerates here want to make the Emperor into some sort of Jesus. I suspect its yankie Christfags doing it. Projecting their views of Jesus on the Emperor.

>>54144536
Number XI... we don't talk about him though... II had the best though... but we don't talk about him either.

>>54146265
We do know that the fault wasn't with the legions, it was explicitly with the Primarchs themselves.

>>54146285
Perhaps the authors should stop projecting their daddy issues onto fictional characters in attempts to deal with how they feel daddy never loved them?

>>54146265

You're refuting a meta answer with a fluff explanation. The original purpose of the II and XI Legions WAS for players to self insert their own Legion/Primarch into the lore without it completely fucking the setting. This was when the Horus Heresy was still largely a mystery and more of a legend we had bits and pieces of rather than a true accounting. Now we know every stupid fucking detail of these autistic manchildren with daddy issues that could have conquered the galaxy if the Emperor wasn't completely pants on head retarded.

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>>54146260
Not even The Emperor knows.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9-3RZkzpwM

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>>54146314
>pants on head retarded
If more-than-mortal demigod super-smart lords of war can't stop being autistic manchildren with daddy issues for a couple of decades, then I'd say the flaw lies less with the Emperor and more with the fact that the Primarchs are the pants on head retarded ones.

>>54145931
In RougeTrader back in the day, the were a reference to the legions lost at the Battle of Teutoburg Forest, were two entire roman legions were wiped and the emperor Augustus was reported to have shouted "Varus give me my legions back!". Due to the shameful defeat both roman legions were stricken out of records. But that fluff has changed with time, now its hinted that Leman Russ killed both of the missing Primarchs under orders of the Emperor

>>54146048
If the Emperor believed in the Imperial Truth, he shouldn't have been afraid that religion would triumph over it.

You only fear and destroy that which you cannot conquer by logic and reason. How truthful can the Imperial Truth be if it cannot overcome superstition and faith

>>54146490
Considering how badly it lost to superstition and faith he had good reason to treat it like some fragile little thing. Maybe he thought if he could protect it, it might one day grow into something that wasn't so delicate and easily suppressed. But alas, people gots to have they church, so his militant atheism was one of the biggest contributors to his downfall.

>>54146523
It was clearly a flawed idea or at least, an idea not fit for a flawed universe

Personally, I think a tactic that might have been interesting if it worked out was realizing how much emotion and the need for faith fed the Warp.

If the Emperor worked hard to genetically engineer humanity to be nulls and gather more necrodermis or other metals incorruptible by the warp.

You would have a Dark Age of Technology mankind that does not feed the warp no matter what it feels or does, and an army of Iron Men that won't be corrupted by being made of Necrodermis. A huge shadow in the warp would generate from humanity, delaying or maybe even preventing the death of Slaanesh and possibly without an astronomoicon not attracting the Tyranid horde to our Galaxy. Maybe.

Even the Ork WAAAGH might be dulled by it.

>>54146275
The problem with that is that it makes the Emperor into an idiot as well.
If the Primarchs are just tools, then WHY THE FUCK doesn't he just kill Angron? He's clearly damaged goods, there's nothing that can be done for him. The 'they're only tools for my ambition' guy would have no reason to leave him alive, much less give him a fucking army. But no, Angron gets the World Eaters, because 'shut up, we're brilliant writers'.

>>54146573
>>54146275
Let us not forget that the Emperor must have had dozens, hundreds, maybe thousands of human sensei in his lifetime before he had the Primarchs.

If he ever had a paternal sense toward any of them, it must surely have been snuffed out by the march of time. What's another son, after 10000 sons.

If he even cared for his bastard children anyway.

>>54146573
Here is a Tau saying for you.

"A broken sword can still cut".

He can still Angron in his present state and Angron was going die anyways due to the nails. So the problem was going to solve itself by itself.

>>54146593
I disagree. Alivia Sureka which was a fellow True Perpetual and companion of the Emperor, was sterile.

Perpetuals could be all sterile. After all, what does an immortal need of offspring?

>>54146573
>He's clearly damaged goods, there's nothing that can be done for him.

The Emperor did try to fix him. He couldn't. But at that point as well, remember that he's already lost two Primarchs. Angron is in a bad way, but he wasn't completely compromised, he still had a decent amount of his faculties. So he took a risk because he simply didn't want to lose another Primarch (and, consequently, legion).

Of course, that does make it stupid in light of BL's other wonderful additions like "steal power from Chaos Gods, including one whose main component is RAGE" to his character.

>>54144705
I've seen this kind of thread tens of times and this is my favorite answer regardless of all biases

>>54146608
Perhaps those perpetuals were sterile, but the Emperor explicitly had sensei offspring.

>>54146288
>angron, magnus, curze and mortarion made the cut
>these two didn't
Holy shit how bad can you possibly be

>>54146613
That still doesn't explain why he let Angron do it to all his marines too.

>>54146621
> but the Emperor explicitly had sensei offspring.

That's old lore that exists in the same period that had the Emperor being a fusion of shaman souls. So its canon is dubious.

>>54146626
Was he paying that close attention to the inner workings of the legions after handing them over to their Primarchs? It seems like he only got involved when they really stepped out of line, such as Lorgar.

>>54146640
When in doubt, everything is canon. The Emperor is a fusion of shaman souls who also made a deal.

New canon does not refute old canon unless explicitly says so.

>>54146640
Wrong post?

>>54146642
Teaching worlds you conquer to worship the Emperor is apparently something he notices, but the fact an entire legion now has rage wires hammered into their heads is something he misses? Surely he must have interacted with them at least once after Angron started doing it, or at least had some report of it.

The Emperor tries to take the nails out of Angron, because he knows it's a problem, but doesn't stop him from not only implanting them in his marines but actually having them manufactured as well.

It doesn't add up.

>>54144805

Isn't Angron supposed to be one of the shortest in the fluff anyway?

What I don't like is how small Magnus is. He should be much bigger.

>>54144833
I bet Cawl could've fixed it.

>>54146288
http://menducia.atspace.com/primarchs/II.html
Each Primarch is given a Major Arcana that fits them best. The High Priestess and The Fortune are left for the missing Primarch
TL;DR One was had a greater implicit understanding of the Warp than Magnus, rather than being able to throw it about. The other was a lucky, friendly fellow, if naive and too trusting.

Obviously not canon in the slightest, but I think it's interesting basis for imagining.

>>54146664
>Teaching worlds you conquer to worship the Emperor is apparently something he notices
He only noticed because they were very slow in progress across the galaxy.

It probably went something like

>right, let's check how my Primarchs are doing
>hmm, most pretty good, Horus and the first one are still up the top, excellent
>Blueboy has a lot of compliance going on, that's real good, pity his victories aren't quite as good, but good record all the same
>Alpharius and his twin are a bit low, not to worry, they showed up last anyway, they're making good progress
>Lorgar's doing we- hang on what, why are they taking so fucking long?
>I mean, it's a pretty big legion, they should be much faster
>lemme see here
>...
>......
>.........
>what.

>>54146490
>People are overall rationale and will believe the truth if its presented to them in a logical and coherent fashion

Oh to be young.

>>54146669
primarch heights have never been consistent

Though I will say they were at their best when they were the same size as their marines.

>>54146771
Alpharius, stop posting on my korean impressionist painting wall.

>>54146764
See, but thats exactly it. It doesn't work.

For the Emperor to think it works is incredibly flawed.

Forcing people to recite a "truth" will never be as truthful as what they themselves believe it to be. A man with a tumor in his brain that sees 2+2=5 will always believe 2+2=5 no matter how logical and rational you tell him the answer "4" is.

>>54146669
>He should be much bigger
for you

>>54146763
I mean, how did he not notice? I'm sure he met some World Eaters in person, even at a distance. Hell, they would have paraded right in front of him at the Triumph of Ullanor. And it doesn't even get a comment?

>Hey Angron, what's that one your marines heads down there in the parade?
>...
>Are you fucking serious?

>>54146814
Not all the WE had the nails, I don't think.

And wouldn't the ones marching at Ullanor have had their helmets on anyway?

>>54146821
Not captains or sergeants.

Besides, my point is that the Emperor or someone close to him would have had ample opportunity to even just catch a glimpse of an uncovered World Eater or even their requisitioning a bunch of nasty archaeotech. To say he had no idea, when the Crusade went on for literally decades and World Eaters as important as Kharn did it, strains credulity at best.

>>54146821
Still, at one point he had to have TALKED TO FUCKING ANGRON, he's completely barking pants on head MAD

>>54146930
He already knew Angron had the nails for the obvious reason that he tried to get them out, anon. He couldn't do it without killing him. Angron could be talked to, though, and reasoned with. He wasn't constantly chained up like a madman.

>>54146930
"Hey Anne, how's my little Spartacus rip off doing?"
>"AAAAAAAAAAFUCKYOUFUCKYOUFUCKYOUILLRIPYOURARMSOFF"
"Oh still mad about letting your only comrades die? Whatever kid, daddy's gotta Empire to run."

>>54145726
If anything he should have let the Primarchs who didn't really want to fight (Lorgar, Perturabo) sit back and be the key figures in building the Imperium while the others could continue the wars.

That would have fixed a lot of the "we're just tools to be disposed of" angst.

>IT'S THE HARD KNOCK LIFE.. HORUS
>THE EMPRAH ABANDONED.. US.
>INSTEAD OF FORTRESSES.. WE GET DIRT
>INSTEAD OF LIBRARIES.. WE GET HURT
>IT'S THE HARD KNOCK LIFE

Little Orphan Anniegron

>>54147161
>MY AXE WILL SPILL BLOOD, TOMORROW
>BET YOUR SHARPEST BLADE THAT, TOMORROW
>THERE'LL BE BLOOD

>>54145906
I'd put Mortarion second to Angron, he literally crash-landed into a battlefield and was raised as weapon by an alien king.
Curze is very close though.

>>54144536

Angron. Taken as slave, turned into gladiator, turned into perma-rge gladiator by Nails, which are DAoT thingies, also stole his ability sleep or rest at all. Started rebellion to save what little he had as friends, even if it meant dying as free man.

Emperor steals this moment, letting his only friends die in vain, gives up on Angron quite shortly after that. Uses his marines as battering ram and hopes boy dies during one of the campaigns.


Mortarion would come first if it werent for his aptitude to rebel against father, not once but twice. Yes, poison planet, but he actually had childhood of education under adoptive father overlord, before turning against him, later same with emperor before once again turning against father.

>>54146710
>Implying Cawl is superior to Arkhan Land
No.

>>54145687
Because he actually loved them, even if he didn't want to admit it.

>>54144536
It's between Antron, Kurze, and Lion.

The Khan had a pretty shit up bringing if you think about it.
>Crash on backwards ass planet
>Get adopted by loving but poor family
>Loving family killed and your sold into slavery by rich assholes
The difference is that the Khan succeeded in getting his revenge. Morty and Angron failed

>>54149232
Angron was in a much more desperate position though. The Khan lived in what was basically the Mongolian steppes which the oppressors never managed to subdue or conquer. Also I believe that the forces Khan was fighting where like 16th century Chinese while Angron was facing Lasers and shit.

>>54149215
This all could have been avoided if he'd just played catch and went fishing with any of them.

SANGUINIUS WAS RAISED ON A IRRADIATED HELLSCAPE BY MUTANT CAVEMEN

MAGNUS WAS RAISED ON A WORLD WITH PSYCHIC PARASITE WASPS TRYING TO RAPE HIS BRAIN

>>54144536
Magnus looks pissed
>How in hells name did I end up between Mort-"I bathe in my own liquid shit"-arion and Angry Angron Costanza?

In all seriousness though its angron. Nailed as a kid, unable to conqueror his homeworld due to this and the savage disadvantages he possessed. Dicked over by Big E out of what reads like spite. Compliant worlds have died for less then one primarch's wellbeing.

Curze had it rough due to a sliver of psyker talent

Pert exists in a hell of his own making. There is literally Nothing stopping him from deciding to be better. A primarch should not be a slave to their nature

Lion deserves a very minor mention for going all wild man

>>54144536
Which Primarch had the easiest and nicest upbringing?

>>54144536
>Lorgar, Horus, Rogal, ?, Khan, Angron, Magnus, Morty, Sanguinius the Great Angel

>>54150575
Either Guilliman or Dorn.

>>54150575
Horus.

>>54146490
>How truthful can the Imperial Truth be if it cannot overcome superstition and faith

Not at all? The Imperial Truth is a lie. There are, demonstrably, gods. The Emperor saying there were no gods was him trying to make humanity believe a lie.

>>54149232
Mortarion fought xenos psyker necromancers that towered over primarchs and fought wars with hordes molded from the flesh of mankind into horrific shapes.

Angron fought an advanced civilisation (who at the very least had explosives and some manner of ability to reproduce archeotech) with nothing but gladiator weapons.

Khan took over a medieval world.

>>54150575
Guilliman. Not just the nicest, but the one which produced a stable, reasonably well-adjusted being (largely because he has a father figure who is not The Worst Dad Ever).

>>54150682
He had a mother figure as well, alone among the Primarchs.

>>54150693
There are surprisingly few women in the fluff surrounding the primarchs. Like barely any, really. Not that that's bad just interesting.

>>54150575
Alpharius, but only he knows why.

>>54150575
Guilliman, Dorn runner up.

>Butcher's Nails tier
Angron

>Death World tier
Lion
Sanguinius
Fulgrim

>Raised alone tier
Curze
Russ

>Raised by savages tier
Horus
Vulkan
Khan
Corax

>ABLOO BLOO BLOO tier
Mortarion
Perturabo

>Favored son tier
Guilliman
Magnus
Lorgar

>??? tier
Alpharius

>>54150682
>>54150693
>>54150725
Funny, isn't it? That perhaps the most well-adjusted Primarch is well-adjusted because he grew up in a functioning, positive family.

>>54150575
Guilliman by far.

Dorn's probably next - he lived on a pretty tough world, but he was adopted by a clan patriarch.

Similarly you've got the likes of Lorgar, Fulgrim, Magnus, Sanguinius and Perturabo who were all adopted by people (many of whom would shape them significantly) and who fought wars for survival but not as dire as their brothers (Fulgrim didn't have any notable wars at all, but he went from factory shit-slinger to planetary ruler).

Everyone else landed on death worlds and shit, having to fight not just to win the planet but to exist at all, with Curze's visions, Angron's nails, Mort's undead xenos and arguably Lion's Chaos exposure competing to be shittiest of the shitty

>>54150766
>Death World tier
>Fulgrim
?

>>54150766
Pert is full on favoured son tier. He had a legit good upbringing, he simply chose to activate his autism each and every day instead of allowing himself to be tempered. It's all his own fault and nobody has been consistant with it

>>54146461
Three legions were wiped out at Teutoberg actually.

>>54150807
Chemos was a poisoned, resource-starved wasteland that Fulgrim managed to turn into a functional post-industrial society.

>>54150819
So not a death world then? Putting Fulgrim in their for Chemos and not Russ with Fenris? Na.

>>54150806
Lion came out of his pretty well, all things considered.

>>54150842
I'd say Chemos is at least as shitty to live on as Baal.

Fenris is at least resource-rich with a thriving human population. The tribe that took in Fulgrim literally risked starvation by adopting a single infant.

>>54144805
He is manlet.

His rules confirm it.

>>54144823
Kind of off topic but I think Hugh Jackman being tall and handsome took away a big part of Logan's characterization.

That being that he's literally 5'2'' and is this horrible, smelly, little ball of rage and murder.

>>54150865
>thriving human population
Lolno.
Either way Chemos was just a world slipping back into a previous age. Fulgrim went to work in a factory after all.

>>54144536
Angron, then there's a significant gap from him to Curze and Mortarion.

Another big gap to the Lion. Alone in a Death World isn't easy.

>>54150842
Chemos literally had razor storms and its people had to ration water

>>54150606
First is Fulgrim.
No idea who that is between Dorn and Khan though.

>>54150952
It's lorgar.

Who else is bald and has literally a dozen purity seals on him?

>>54150951
>Chemos literally had razor storms
Dont remember this but even if it was true still not a death world. I seriously think you are underestimating how bad death worlds are.

>>54150968
>who else is bald
the vast majority of the primarchs, according to old/bad art

>>54150999
You may be overestimating how bad a world has to be to qualify as a death world.

I would consider "razor storms" to be "hostile to human habitation."

>>54146790
Only if you treat that "truth" as the end goal, not a means to an end.
The entirety of the Imperial Truth was simply a way to discourage Chaos and deny it worship, period.
It wasn't there to enlighten humanity, it was a damn tool, and half of the thread is ignoring that ultimate purpose.

>>54150999
It's in Angel Exterminatus, in the flashback where they find baby Fulgrim they're taking cover in an old abandoned factory because they got caught in a razor storm.

A world may be deadly in different ways and in different degrees, just because Fenris will kill you doesn't mean Chemos couldn't either

>>54151002
There's only like 5

>>54151002
Only Primarchs I imagine as actually bald are Lorgar, Alpharius, Angron, Vulkan, and Horus.

>>54150845
Yeah, he came out alright, I'd only put him in the "absolutely shit" tier because a) growing up alone, and b) literally Chaos planet.

Ferrus had what would normally be considered a pretty shit pre-crusade life, what we know of it, but he didn't seem to mind. He chose not to join any of the tribes, for example.

>>54146490
Big E actually elaborates a bit on this in Master of Mankind. Basically religious worship even if it is peaceful at first very frequently ends up turning into a chaos cult. Better safe than sorry i guess.

>>54151038
>to discourage Chaos and deny it worship
Except chaos doenst survive off of worship making the entire thing pointless.

>>54150845
Yeah, given that he grew up on a magical xenos planet that was a prison for some fuck-huge Chaos entity that was birthing Chaos monsters into the world, the Lion came out a model human. At this point, you can't even blame his social problems for Caliban's fall; it was just a ridiculous confluence of Chaos shenanigans, a jealous father figure, and the same Terran-non-Terran infighting that plagued other legions.

>>54144536
Curze and Angron are tied for "most fuck-up upbringing."

>>54151016
>>54151065
I have never seen it stated that Chemos was a deathworld in any GW material.
Feel free to prove me wrong and I mean that in a conversational way, but a planet being a shit place to live is run of the mill in 40k.

>>54150999
If you're defining death worlds as that harsh Caliban wouldn't qualify either since humans on it had enough breathing room to develop a feudal society with a dedicated and well-supported warrior caste. They were hardly starving and scraping to survive.

Objective ranking of homeworlds

>you're dead
Barbarus
Caliban
Fenris
Nostramo
Baal
Medusa
Nocturne
>shit
Chemos
Cthonia
Deliverance
>eh
Nuceria
Chogoris
Inwit
>nice
Colchis
Olympia
>comfy tier
Macragge

>>54151139
Just because it isn't stated directly doesn't mean it isn't.

AFAIK Caliban wasn't classed as a death world either yet from the descriptions it clearly is

>>54151165
>psychic brain worms ate your memory tier
Prospero

>>54151165
Nostramo was just a super shitty hive world though.

>>54151183
Oh right, knew I was forgetting someone.

Put it in nice (excepting the brain eating psychic insects)

>>54151165
Nostramo is just like... Detroit, except it still has industry, and no sunlight.

>>54151165

Prospero should be pretty ace to live in as well.

>>54151193
>>54151203
>perpetually in darkness
>smog everywhere
>local cuisine is dog, rat or kid
>lucky if you get to 12

>>54151240
That's just the society, though. That's not the climate or the native life. Armageddon is probably worse to live on, thanks to the perpetual ork war, and that's not a death world.

>>54151267
I wasn't ranking just death worlds in the worst tier, but all homeworlds where life is shittiest

Which of the Primarchs would have been all fucked up even if they hadn't been scattered?

>>54151240
There was an upper spire too. It was the underclass that was eating each other.

For Curze to have his "batman but insane" gimmick you need a functioning society with laws (even if everyone is breaking them).

>>54151323
Magnus, maybe Sanguinius

>>54151323
Just Curze I think, he was crazy from the start

>>54151323
Ideally none of them. It was their upbringing that tended to fuck most of them up. However Curze seemed like his "gifts" drove him mad anyway and Perturabo was probably always going to be a jealous little shit. Bonus for Mortarion being a fuckup even if raised right.

>>54151345
The two you just mention make 0 sense?

>>54151267
This. A death world is characterised by the fact that human life is at the bottom of the food chain. Nostramo is just a hive world shit-hole. Weather wasn't lethal, all plant and animal life wasn't lethal and death by human is the lest common way to go.

Of course by this measure I wouldn't call Caliban a death world either. The beasts where dangerous and chaos-touched and on occasion it ate a nurgle plague. But by the crusade it's being colonised en-mass and you just can't do that on a deathworld

>>54151179
At least according to Angels of Caliban, it was indeed classed as a death world. Typhon and Luther discuss it.

>He laughed at his own joke and earned himself a quizzical look from Luther.
‘The Administratum designated Caliban a death world, yes?’ he asked the Dark Angel.
‘Of a sort.’ Luther looked confused, or perhaps defensive. ‘With the Lion’s aid, we slew all the Great Beasts of the forest and instilled order and peace.’
‘The toxic air of Barbarus kills most humans within thirty years. At higher altitudes it will kill in seconds. The Administratum had set the bar too low on death by the time they found us.’

The suggestion seems to be that pre-Lion Caliban was definitely a death world, but after the slaughter of the Great Beasts and the clearing of the forests, it might have been in line for reclassification.

>>54151398
Again, I never said that Nostramo is a death world. But if you landed there, you're just as fucked as if you landed on Nocturne or Baal

>>54151494
I'll agree to that. Fucked just in another way. An outsider on Nostromo's not going to last more then a few hours. Just boils down to shived in the dark or having your rad-blasted corpse devoured by mutants

>>54151425
Death world when most days and most places are nice, but once in a while a giant kaiju eats an entire city? Sounds reasonable.

So a new question and forgive what feels like it could trigger factional magical realm (Muh jungle fighters!)

>how would the lion have faired on catachan?

>>54146490
Emps knew the Imperial Truth was a lie, but he thought enforcing it could rob the Chaos gods of their power. That's probably why he came down on Lorgar so hard, if the word got out that gods are real the whole facade would be shattered and there'd be no way to put the pieces back together. Lorgar was fucking around with Pandora's box and Emps was willing to do just about anything to keep it from being opened.

>>54151165
Which one of the homeworlds during the arrival of their respective primarchs is most similar to our earth in the present day?

>>54151562
Just as he fated on Caliban I'd think.

All the primarchs are latent psykers and Lion's power was heightened senses (beyond that of primarchs even) and an almost sixth sense of incoming danger.

It's suggested this is the reason he's the best tactician of all his brothers

>>54151354
>>54151380
I think with curze his visions combined with hellhole he grew up in created a negative person, he could have been able to control his visions and understand what, if anything, they meant if he had been tempered during his upbringing. Even on nostramo he was initially committied to justice (although a bloody version) and only through the progress of the crusade and heresy his creat fear to creat justice became just to create fear as a vague punishment and vote of self assurance

>>54151612
Macragge I'd say, though even they're strange ( can trade with other worlds and systems, yet still ride horses)

>>54151673
>can trade with other worlds and systems, yet still ride horses)
Because its noblemen luxury.

>>54151707
>smelly and uncomfortable horses when you can just drive around in a limo

>>54151724
IRL they are only kept for sport or for meat and milk.

>>54151662
I imagine that if Curze had arrived on a quiet, almost-dead world, raised by some sort of monastic order, I could see his gifts mostly showing how life would continue stably on the planet, giving him a different, rather calm demeanor.
Of course, when the Emperor found him, I can see his sense of justice leading him to follow along and join the fight, and the resulting clash between orderly upbringing and the chaos of battle pushing him towards a fall anyway, but it's interesting to consider.

>>54151876
He'd still see the hell which was to come to the galaxy at large.

In the books the moment he goes insane and tries to claw his eyes out is when he meets the emperor and sees his fate, and with that the fate of them all.

>>54145496
And yet that's why he's more into Nurgle sphere than Typhus. The fat guy is just too proactive. Mortarion is the despair, the entropy, the resignation to the decay,

>>54151145
>>54151179
>>54151425
Read Savage Weapons. It's implied all of Caliban's flora and fauna was tainted (by the Ouroboros) to be inimical to human life.
The only thing they had going for them was a much-reduced Dark Age technology and pure human mettle.

>>54151384
The Emperor going
>psykers are fine, let's do psykery together son
>psykers are fine, spread psykery throughout the legions son
>psykers are evil, I'll kill you if you ever do it again
would always cause problems with Magnus. Meme-tards like to pretend that Magnus just started doing psyker-shit out of the blue despite Nikaea, but there were centuries of accepted psykery by Magnus and his legion preceding the fall of Prosper. Magnus was never given a reasonable explanation of why he shouldn't use psykery because there was no good reason, and the decision of Nikaea has been absolutely bugfuck retarded since the HH series got there and it has only gotten worse since.

>>54152239
And angels of Caliban confirms this.

But I wonder, if cyphers and the watchers knew this, why didn't they do anything?

>>54146048
>Religious faith seemed like the biggest thing Emps wouldn't compromise on
>let the martians continuing their toaster worshpping religion and never said a word against for the whole GC, actually he played God/Messiah/whatever for them just nice
Lorgar should had brought that to the table during the whole Monarchia shebang.

>>54152336
>because there was no good reason
U wot?

Did you miss the part where they started mutating at Prospero because they overused their powers? Psykery is incredibly dangerous, especially if you are prone to mutations like the TS.

And Russ says the problem wasn't that they were psykers, Russ and his legions keep on using them after all, but that the Emperor thought that Magnus was too curious for his own good, and through practising his psykery he'd get brainwashed by Chaos, so he preemptively put a stop to it.

>>54152336
That's what happens when the emperor listens to fucking Russ and Morty. Who threw such a collective, decades spanning shitfit that he was close to having no choice in the matter. Hell even chaos itself, or some aspect of it states to whats-his-name that Magnus would never have strayed across the line or fallen under his own power. He would have walked right up to the bloody-minded line but would never have crossed it without severe outside provocation.

Now does this mean that had the edict not been passed everything would of been peachy? Not really, the webway would still be fucked, magus is still in hot shit but maybe. Just maybe his warning might have been head and understood before Russ- insane with hate took matters into his own hands and just besieged prospero on his own

>>54152433
>That's what happens when the emperor listens to fucking Russ and Morty. Who threw such a collective, decades spanning shitfit that he was close to having no choice in the matter
Then you have BL to thank that this is no longer canon.

In daemonology it's revealed that Mortarion was secretly told to publicly whinge about psykers by Malcador, since they had planned Nikea a long time ago, and just needed a just cause to bring it about.

>>54152395
Typical anti-Magnus retardpost.

Flesh Change was due to Tzeentch dickery. It was happening on Terra before they even met Magnus. It had nothing to do with over-using psykery, and it was rampant even within the non-psyker members of the legion. When you get something this basic wrong, you tell us that you know nothing about the topic at hand.

The Edict of Nikaea called and said that you were a lying sack of shit. Mortarion's secret meeting with Malcador also left a message, also saying that you were a lying sack of shit.

The problem with Magnus and the Thousand Sons is that they did nothing wrong. They were dealt an unwinnable hand from the get-go, and shit only got worse from them as it went on.

>>54152485
....what is the point?

Seriously, I get the idea of using to HH to make things seem flawed and tragic, but....WHAT IS THE POINT???
The villainizing of the Imperium has reached fucking retarded levels that make no goddamn sense.

>>54152541
>Flesh Change was due to Tzeentch dickery
Yeah it couldn't possibly be because their geneseed was unstable, must be muh Tzeentch.

Tell me retard, are the wulfen and red thirst caused by Tzeentch as well?

Second, psykery is indeed dangerous, because it relies on the warp, which is why Emps wanted to ostracize all psykers. Sorry for bursting your bubble.

The problem with Magnusfags is the same problem Magnus has: always think they're the smartest in the room

>durr dad told me not to play with the warp but I'll show him
>*allahu akbars Terra*

I'm glad his shitty legion and his shitty planet got bombed to dust, and he himself got his spine broken and his soul shattered like the bitch he was

>>54144927
>. I wonder if he would have stayed loyal if he hadn't had years of of psychologically damaging visions/nightmares.
Definitely.
Even when he was full genocide mode the non-fucked side of him was a breddy cool guy

>>54144950
I always imagine the confrontation between Lorgar and the Emperor actually went like this:

>Lorgar, I have come to see how you're doing here. You're behind your schedule
>Ah, Father! What a precious visitation indeed! Please, allow me to show you what a magnificent monument to your majesty i made!
>Well ok, i guess i got some time, what is it?
>Look Father! Every inch of this city has been built to worship your divine person! Every single building is an artisan's masterwork of faith and purity!
>What?
>'Tis true! Look at the golden spires of your Churches and Temples!
>*Emps goes silent*
>Every building, every soul on thi wretched planet has been repurposed only to venerate your immortal glory, father!
>..where are the defensive fortifications?
>Father, sure you know that faith is the greatest shield of all..
>*Lorgar turns around, only to see Emps staring at him*
>What the actual fuck, Lorgar?
>W-what?
>Are you fucking retarded? We're in a fucking WAR! I need battlements, not fucking *waves angrily towards the building* CHURCHES!
>B-but father I...
>You had one fucking job, Lorgar. Fucking Christ how the hell am I supposed to do anything with this bloated pile of shining shit
>But, y-you div-
>ONE JOB, LORGAR! And you didn't even fucking manage to keep on schedule. Do you even know that we're fighting to save human lives out there, you mongoloid?
>But I-
>Look at all this golden shit, it's blinding! How are they so shining for Terra's sake, did you douse the walls in body oil?
>*Lorgar goe silent*
>...Fuck's sake, Lorgar. *Emps beeps at Guilliman* Guilliman blow this shitfest to the ground
>But father!
>Don't say a single fucking word, Lorgar. When i get back i want a fucking military base here, or I'm gonna shove my power boot so far up your ass you're gonna taste the shit i stepped in

>>54152239
I have read it. I agree it's a death world. I'm pointing out the definition is rather broad.

>>54152627
What exactly did Malcador stand to gain from this? Was daddy E in the know? Was it all a matter of needing to make a decision about psykers while power was still mostly concentrated outside of Terra?

and even then if this was all some deal Malc was behind then why the theatrics? why bother with the trial everyone pretended was something else when you could just go to magnus directly

>>54145266
The majority of people here don't even play 40k
Many others don't play any /tg/
Me included and I've been here for years and read like 150 warhammer books

>>54152724
Yep, emps hatched the plot, but Malcador was the one who did all the dirty politicking.

Magnus wasn't told because emps plan would mean that he and all his sons would be exiled beyond the galaxy at best, and exterminated at worst

>>54151323
Curze, easy. His visions are what's fucked him.

>>54152724
Dont bother with BL posters Anon.

>>54152681
>Not super keen on being worshipped
>Maybe mention in passing to the son who has lived his entire life believing you where god that its not a good move
>Leave said son to his own shit for 200 years
>suddenly, Rowboat nukes the planet. Tells civvies to evacuate while killing every other city
>billions of lives wasted
>"Everything is lorgar's fault"

it's the old chestnut. Emps never made a particularly big deal about it, you'd fucking think he'd be able to ween lorgar off faith. The fact that he failed suggests he never really put the time in to break his sons convictions while simultaneously exposing him to feats of human effort that will never be rivalled again

>>54152669
>arguing that the flesh change wasn't related to Tzeentch
>arguing that banning all psykers was a good idea
Blatant shitpost is blatant.
>>54152724
Shitty writing. There's a reason all the BL writers are writing genre fiction for a toy model company. In the end, the HH series is full of decisions that cannot be justified rationally. Banning psykers, allowing Angron to command a legion, the way Lorgar was censured, etc.

>>54152794
>Emps never made a particularly big deal about it
cringe

>>54152814
>he disagrees with me?
>MUST BE A SHITPOST
Classic Magnus. No wonder the majority of his brothers favored censuring him.

Anyway:

1) You didn't answer my question. Are the Wulfen and Red Thirst also connected to Tzeentch, since they are mutations as well?

2) Banning all psykers was a good idea, Magnusshitter.

>lol yeah I know I'm channelling the warp but who cares brah I can quit anytime I want

Classic junkie talk.

The only thing I disagree with is how early they were banned, should've waited for the end of the crusade, invited all psykers to a grand feast on Prospero then nuked it from orbit

>>54152826
As far as I know then. I remember little in my reading to suggest that he ever took lorgar aside and really broke down the whole not-a-god thing. So if he did then I'm expected to believe that Lorgar somehow forgot or convinced himself that 200 years of "don't do that" didn't count.

>>54152814
True but we make do, draw lines and clannishly fight with what we have

>>54152912
The Imperial Truth was a core tenet of the Imperium. What youre saying makes zero sense.]

>>54152892
You seem like a massive dick jockey.

>>54152944
Not an argument.

>>54152892
>1) You didn't answer my question. Are the Wulfen and Red Thirst also connected to Tzeentch, since they are mutations as well?
Wulfen and Red Thirst aren't tied to Tzeentch from the beginning of their inception into the plot. Neither one involves deals with Tzeentch or Tzeentch inflicting them on their legions at the eleventh hour.
>2) Banning all psykers was a good idea, Magnusshitter.
And yet psykers are one of the most potent anti-Chaos tools around. The Space Wolves continued to use their psykers after the edict, and astrotelepaths were still and integral part of the Imperium. Both and the Emperor and his second in command were powerful psykers, and all of the primarchs were at least latent psykers. Craftworld Eldar are one of the most powerful anti-Chaos factions in the galaxy, and they're full of psykers.

I call you a shitposter because you post shit. You're either utterly ignorant or actively ignoring the truth in favor of your memes.

>>54152988
It wasnt an argument it was an observation but thanks for proving it correct.

>>54146490
>If the Emperor believed in the Imperial Truth
He obviously didn't, do you know nothing about the fluff or are you being ignorant on purpose?

>>54151380
I remember in I think Scars it's revealed that Khan was supposed to go to Chemos and vice versa.

>>54152992
Is that why they get so easily possessed and are constantly fighting not to fall into the abyss?

Psykers are like nukes when used against Chaos; incredibly useful, but if it goes wrong you're fucked.

And as you said, if the most powerful and second most powerful psykers in the galaxy thought banning psykers would be a good idea, surely they were onto something?

>>54145604
>and never caved.
Anon I.... I have to tell you something.
Lion is suckin Slaneshi dicks in his dark cave under rock. While loyalist DA are out there.

>>54146265
Why have the traitor primarchs never spilled the beans about them, I wonder.

>>54153005
Oh no, some random faggot on a Siberian shadow puppetry board thinks I'm an asshole, whatever shall I do?

>>54146710
I wouldn't be surprised if Cawl accidentally invented them whilst trying to fix his toaster.

>>54151323
Perturabo. Fluff went out of its way to make it abundantly clear that no one could really influence him much. He just had major brain problems from the get go, and he was paranoid from being watched by the eye of terror.

>>54151724
>what is the real world right now
Autist

>>54153061
They also thought putting Angron and Curze in charge of legions would be good, and that Chaos relied on worship to thrive. If banning psykers was such a good idea, why are they everywhere in 40k?

Nice typical shitposter behavior, by the way. Immediately ignore any point of yours that gets BTFO.

>>54150797
shhhhhh dont be loud man...or sjw will flock.

>>54153329
>They also thought putting Angron and Curze in charge of legions would be good
They saw the primarchs as tools, and emperor needed a psychological terror legion and a storming legion.

>and that Chaos relied on worship to thrive

This still isn't clear in the fluff so I'll trust in Malc and Emps but I honestly don't know if it's true

>If banning psykers was such a good idea, why are they everywhere in 40k?

Retard alert. Emps has no control over Imperial policy in 40k.

Also, your logic:

>if no terrorists was such a good idea, why does ISIS exist?

Just because they're there doesn't mean it's good that they're there. If it was, Chaos wouldn't have tried so hard to fuck up the webway project

>Nice typical shitposter behavior, by the way. Immediately ignore any point of yours that gets BTFO

Autism at its purest. The reason I didn't reply is because I conceded the point, but I suppose you're so badly bleeding from your hurt ass right now that it doesn't make any difference.

>>54151724
>smelly and uncomfortable horses
nigger detected.

>>54144536
Angron. He's still a whiny bitchcunt faggot though.

Ferrus Manus > Magnus > Vulkan > Sanguinius > Rogal Dorn > Fulgrim > Horus > Roboute Guiliman > Alpharius Omegon > Leman Russ > Lion El'Jonson > Corvus Corax > Jaghatai Khan > Lorgar > Mortarion > Konrad Curze > Perturabo > Angron

>>54153738
>Magnus that far up
No way pal

>>54153789
Admittedly, Magnus fucked up, but I also think he's the least responsible for fucking up, and if he had the opportunity he would go back and fix his mistake.

If not for Mortarion (incidentally the only Primarch to bitch out to Chaos because "ohhh it hurrrts") and the furry, he would have been fine.

>>54152336

Even the White Scars thought Magnus and the 1ksons were retards and repeatedly crossing the line with the shit they were doing, and The Kahn helped create the fucking librarius.

Magnus got what he deserved. If he hadn't been abusing the warp then he never would have lost access to it.

>>54153738
If I'm perfectly honest I never understood /tg/'s love for vulkan.

He's like the most boring primarch, and spent the entire heresy either captured or dead.

He isn't even cool like Manus

>>54144536
2 & 11

>>54153909
He's not a dickbag like most of the other primarchs.

>>54145931
I think GW keeps them blank for now for the same reason >>54146069
says. They also serve as a back-up in case the game starts losing popularity with marinefags. They can just reveal one/both and bring out a bunch of new toys.

>>54144705
>best primarch
You mean worst. He was too big of a pussy to deal with the fact that he fell the Smut god and killed his brother so he let himself get taken over. Sounds like a weak faggot to me.

>>54154283
Yeah, because death by fire is so humane

>>54144536
Mortarion.

>>54144823
Or a honeybadger

>>54154446
Being a dickbag to enemies gets a free pass. Most of the primarchs are dicks to nearly everyone.

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>>54154617
So then you aren't a dickbag if you see everyone as an enemy?
t. Lion

>>54154649
While I see the point you're making the Lion is a frustrating jerk even to people on the same side as him.

>>54154283
Why does everyone always forget about Corax?

>>54154697
Well, there's a reason he wasn't picked as Warmaster...

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162KB, 1430x563px

>>54144536
Angron obviously...

>>54150575
Guilliman, Horus, Perturabo or Dorn all had it pretty good.

>>54154701
Because Corax has been retconned into an asshole
>dropped nukes on cities during the uprising
>exiled his terran legionnaires and treated them as human shields
>killed a random WB chaplain after Isstvan V who might've been a loyalist
>instead of mercy killing the mutating Raptors used them as shock troops
>even though Valerius saved his life with his dreams sent him and his men to their deaths
>exiled his librarians to Terra, even after Emp lifted Nikea
>denied the Raptors a chance of a death in battle, instead executing them like dogs after the Heresy

Class-A asshole

>>54154766
>horus
>who lived on Nostramo 0.5, with things like murder-haruspexes

If the Emperor didn't arrive as soon as he did Horus would've been a second Curze

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>>54154701
Because Corax is an asocial douchebag a lot of the time.

The only well adjusted Primarchs were Vulkan, Guilliman, Manus and the Khan.

>>54154792
Yeah, but the Emprah did arrive really soon so Horus spent most of his developing years with him.

>>54154807
>calls Corax asocial
>then puts Khan in the well adjusted category

Also I'm not sure about Manus, he was a mix between Perturabo and Angron

>>54154807
And Fulgrim and Horus

>>54154792
I don't know exactly how old he was when the Big E showed up but in the first HH novels it's stated he had to be taught Cthonic language as an adult and faked his accent, so it must have been pretty soon after he landed.

>>54154843
>Traitors
>Well adjusted

>>54154831
Manus was very well adjusted for being a primarch.
As a person he was dour, grumpy, prideful bastard with a hell of temper and all the humour of brick, but he was very good at his job of leading space marines.

>>54150766
Where are Ferrus and Dorn?

>>54154884
They only turned Traitor because they were directly exposed to chaos, which they had no knowledge of. Horus was like the older brother everyone turned to, such as Mortarian, and Fulgrim was also well adjusted pre-Heresy.

>>54154972
Horus had massive daddy issues and insecurities that Chaos targeted. Guilliman got anathame'd too. Didn't turn.

Fulgrim was too much of a retard to put down the xenos-sword that was whispering evil shit to him.

>>54155017
Sanguinius also had insecurities. Guilliman is a faggot who has faggot writers always writing him as want. Utterly irrelevant.

Chaos is corrupting power that no human can oppose unless if you have ridiculous amounts of plot-armor like Guilliman or the Grey Knights.

>>54154972
Horus was pondering rebellion before Lorgar's clubhouse and the stabbing incident. People really love to gloss over just how outraged he was that humans were to be given the authority to govern themselves, and how pissed off he was at the Emperor for not telling him about the super secret project.

But if we ignore the fact that Horus was considering making a move and talking shit with the other Primarchs about how the Emperor had betrayed them all, then sure, it was all because of the moon lodge.

>>54153071
No! I won't hear it! It's not true! It can't be!

>>54154701
Because he's kinda emo and the Salamanders have a better rep for treating regular humans well.

That and he completely bailed on his guys after the heresy.

>>54154769
In fairness the mutated freaks wanted to die as soldiers.

>>54153033
If he was willing to replace one fake belief with another he should have just emrbaced Lorgar and be a god

Hell on Earth Childhood-tier:
>Curze, Angron, Lion El'Jonson, Mortarion

Difficult Childhood-tier:
>Corax, Sanguinius, Vulkan, Russ

Had to work for it-tier:
>Fulgrim, Perturabo, Vulkan, Khan, Ferrus

Pampered-tier:
>Guilliman, Dorn, Magnus

Which chapter gets its dick sucked more by the writers: Grey Knights or Ultramarines?

>>54145931
I like to think they were pacifist. Totally confronted with the emperor mindset, they didnt agree to lead his armies and got executed by leman russ.

>>54156081
Or Chaos had already gotten to them by the time Big E found them

>>54155916

Grey Knights had a Ward run but now they've been powered-down and left aside. At that same point they were also dominating the meta with pretty broken lists, right around the same time as Fish of Fury if I recall correctly, so that kind of cemented their hate.

I don't know when Ultras first became the poster boys for Space Marines, when before they were just another legion, back when the Crimson Fists had owned the cover of Rogue Trader.

>>54145266
mortarion is a good character but pretty much a dick. chris wraight writes him pretty well - petty and stubborn, the way only a primarch could be.

>>54150806
Sanguinius landed in irradiated mad max with mutant cannibals. Thats pretty death world

>>54156403
>I don't know when Ultras first became the poster boys for Space Marines
Then you have no right to say anything about this conversation at all, having proved without doubt you are a 4e babby that takes memes as truth.

Mortarion was definitely stuck with the hardest "final boss" to conquer his planet. I don't think anyone else came close to having to fight an alien necromancer in a toxic environment that can cripple primarchs. The Emperor was stupid to not reveal himself immediately.

>>54157592
Ferrus literally fought a necron construction and nobody gives a shit.

>>54151724
>uncomfortable
uwot

>>54155081
People hate to acknowledge this for some reason

>>54157592
The main reason Mortarion was upset wasn't that the Emperor didn't introduce himself or explain that he was Mort's real dad. As a matter of fact Mortarion's behavior was in part driven by an instant instinctual desire to impress the Emperor, as if on some level he already knew their connection and resented Emps all the more for it. Mortarion's problem is that he didn't want the Emperor to step in and had to finish things to prevent the Emperor from helping. It was all in his head, the Emperor just played into it. Probably to teach him some sort of humility that backfired into eternal spite because Mortarion was determined to be an asshole about his precious Barbarus.

>>54146626
Angron had been censured for encouraging the spread of the Nails throughout his Legion; had the Heresy not happened when it did, I'm guessing Emps would have done something about it, but he was kinda busy, what with his whole Webway project and Lorgar being a bible-thumping zealot, and magnus meddling with shit he wasn't supposed to and Curze going off the deep-end, and trying to subtly wean the Martians off their toaster-worshipping and back to proper science (but carefully so they didn't do a re-run of the men of Iron) etc etc

>>54157592
And Mortarion had the overlord on the ropes. He was basically stuck at the top of that mountain, and given more time Mortarion would have found a way to either overcome the miasma or drive him out of hiding. But he was so pissed off at the Emperor showing up that he'd do pretty much anything.

>>54157721
Cause honestly, the way it was written was shit.
The fact that he was already considering rebellion feels completely incidental to the fact that Chaos got rubbed into his Chaos wound and now he is the Chaos.
Seriously, take Magnus.
He's told not to meddle in the Warp anymore, and is a bit resentful of it, but remains loyal. Still, he meddles in the Warp anyway. And Tzeentch gives him knowledge of the future, resulting in the broken webway, and eventually resulting in Prospero burning, and Magnus being forced to turn to Chaos.
So, now imagine that, instead of all that, Magnus meddled in the Warp one last time, and Tzeentch just walked up to him and dumped so much Chaos into his brain that he immediately turned to Chaos, blowing up daddy's webway project out of spite.
Yeah, he was already kinda getting screwed over, but....it's certainly lacking something.

>>54155189
To be fair, if we have to accept BL daddy issues as canon, then I'm pretty sure the current state of things is that the Dangles are Totally Loyal, the Lion is Totally Loyal, and any misperceptions of that are because of Chaos leading Lion on a merry chase during the Heresy.
And you can't argue with that, because it's the Most Recent Canon, which is apparently the word of god in our moving-miniature-men-around world.

>>54158392
I just see it as the seeds of sedition forming in Horus due to his own pride and then Lorgar taking full advantage of that. He may have had a falling out with the Emperor with or without Chaos, but it was made a million times worse because Horus was blinded by his anger at the time. Chaos came to him when he was at his weakest and he got taken for a ride.

It's not amazing, but I think that's better than acting like Horus was perfectly loyal and stable until Lorgar came along and turned him pure evil practically overnight. This way Horus during the heresy wasn't some brainwashed different person, he was just the worst possible version of the Horus that had always been.

>>54153634
>They saw the primarchs as tools, and emperor needed a psychological terror legion and a storming legion.
A tool that blows up in your face is a shitty tool. Both of them were going to be problems regardless of Lorgar's meddling.
>This still isn't clear in the fluff so I'll trust in Malc and Emps but I honestly don't know if it's true
This is clear in the fluff; your ignorance is not an argument.
>Retard alert. Emps has no control over Imperial policy in 40k.
Loyalist primarchs throughout the Imperium were bringing back their librarians throughout the Heresy. If the Emperor had an issue with it, he could have easily said or done something then or in the aftermath of the Scouring. He didn't immediately go full vegetable.

>>54145906
Angron a hyper eversor and curze something like master of assassin's or something

>>54160341
>Some Primarchs, rather then be head of a Legion, are put in charge of various other Imperial resources
I'm sure people who don't like Primarchs having all the spotlight would take issue, but honestly, I don't hate it.

>>54160595

Hmmm what about a super duper special operative of emps

>>54151425
What's with the caliban trees meme. Been seeing it for years, but I don't read the books.

>>54152485
Thankfully, Dark Imperium denies this in part, Morty really DOES hate psykers and Warp sorcery, he wasn't just told to whinge about it and still did toss his shitfit (which is ongoing in M41-42).

>>54157629
Because he not only won, but did it just because he felt like it. Ferrus purposefully made his life harder than it had to be. He even intentionally didn't unite the Medusan tribes, because he thought they were better off fighting each other.

>>54161816

That probably has more to do with how warpfuckery mutated him and his entire Legion against their will than with anything else. If he had a time machine, he'd go back on his deal with Horus and eject Typhus into the nearest star.

If you could see any of the remaining active Primarchs defeated and killed off in the fluff, who would it be? And who wouldn't it be?

>>54161985
I don't like Guilliman

>>54161985
I wouldn't mind seeing Pert get his shit wrecked and Medrengard sacked. He's basically Chaos' angsty Guilliman, and far more obnoxiously written.

Mort has suffered enough.

>>54161985
Who to kill: Corax if he is still alive. Aside from that, Magnus.

Who not to kill: Perturabo

>>54161985

kill one nobody cares for
corv or lorgar, why not both

>>54152794
That's simply not true though. Emps chastised Lorgar several times for writing, then spreading, the Lectitio Divinitatus. Magnus, who was the only Primarch who liked Lorgar, told him to knock it off as well, but Lorgar didn't listen. He built Monarchia in secret, thinking that when he showed the Emperor it would convince him of the worth of faith. He was wrong.

Furthermore, the Emperor /could/ have sent someone like Angron to raze Monarchia. Instead he sent Guilliman, who went out of his way to only destroy the city, evacuating the population first. He forced Lorgar and his Legion to kneel because Lorgar /still/ refused to renounce his belief.

>>54161985

Magnus. I don't think anyone in the setting deserves it more.

>>54155017
It wasn't the anathame that corrupted Horus, it's purpose was to deal a wound so deadly even Primarch biology couldn't heal, thus allowing Horus to be chanted over and dicked about with by chaos-worshipping dick-nozzles

>>54162774
t. booty blasted space yiffer

>>54162881

>Magnus is a fuck up who screwed over the Imperium
>must be a Space Wolves player

What's it like being retarded?

>>54163010
>>Magnus is a fuck up who screwed over the Imperium
As Guilliman said Magnus sent the Emperor a well intentioned warning that Horus had fallen to chaos. Chaos being the enemy that the Emperor was most worried about and was trying to defeat.
To bad the Emps never acted on this warning otherwise he might not be a corpse right now.

>>54163064
Guilliman didnt say that.

>>54163093
>He hefted the weapon thoughtfully. The firelight danced in his eyes. How it burned was a question of the warp, not of science, for all the machine trappings on the blade and in the hilt. His father had been gifted in both, more so than any other man. The sword resisted Guilliman’s attempts to learn its nature, and he would not release it to any other agency for study.
>For these arts, Magnus had been censured. The retaliation for a warning sent in good faith had created another terrible foe. Another miscalculation on his father’s part – only a human could make so many errors.
Awkward.

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>>54149215
>>54150485
I would love to read an althistory 40k novel where the scattering failed and Emps had to raise his brats himself.

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>>54163116
Will anon ever recover?

>>54149215
While not liking the most recent fluff and having a different head canon is a-OK, the most recent fluff suggests in fairly unambiguous terms that the Emperor never loved the Primarchs or even regarded them as people rather than things.

Master of Mankind and Dark Imperium are not subtle or nuanced on this particular point; they make it fairly unambiguous.

>>54146810
It doesn't matter how tall they are... what matters is their plan!

>>54161985
I'd like to see Perturabo lose outright.

Alpharius needs to pop back up if only to fuck with Guilliman.

>>54163064
What would you have done if you were the Emperor?
>Son who you've already told off once for meddling with psyker sorcery shit fucks up your great project and lets hordes of daemons loose in your palace, all the while babbling nonsense about your favourite son, the one you've known longest, and the guy you trusted above all others to run shit while you were busy is going to turn traitor because he got shown a spooky future vision while recovering from an injury he received from a rebel human armed with a xenos knife

The Emperor's actions are logical - on the surface it looks like Magnus is the one who's turned traitor, but maybe there's something in it. So you send a force to bring him back to Terra to explain himself properly, but just in case he has fallen to Chaos, well, you send Russ and the Wolves and some Sisters of Silence to back them up, and some Custodes so that Magnus knows it's not just Russ being a dick

>>54157818
He also didn't want to serve this shining asshole when he'd liberated the entire rest of the planet - as >>54157872 says, there was basically a siege situation - the Overlord was sitting in the only place he was safe, and Mort and his army had killed all the rest.

Seeing as he'd already been a warlord-servant for someone already (someone who also claimed to be his "father", and it was a job he'd already quit ) it's unsurprising that he didn't want to do that a second time, which was the offer the Emperor gave him.

>>54163850
Ok I'm with you right. But when Russ comes back to Terra all 'jobs done' without Magnus maybe you might want to check why that happened.
>Where's Magnus?
>I killed him just like Horus told me do
>Well that makes perfect sense and then and there's no way that Magnus's warning or this tragedy could be related
>Suddenly Istvaan

>>54163386

The Emperor regarded humanity the way a gardener might regard their garden. He has a plan for it... but if any plant is out of place, if it can't be put back into the place he has ordained for it, he'll cut it out. The fact that he cares so much about humanity as a whole means he cares absolutely nothing for individual humans, including the Primarchs.

>>54163935
>Where's Magnus?
>He's dead.
>WHAT? WHY?!
>I thought that's what you wanted!
>I wanted him brought in alive! I was very specific!
>Yeah, but then Horus said--
>Wait wait hold up, Horus changed my orders?
>Are you mad?
>Gosh, no! If Horus had you kill Magnus that's all the evidence I need! Fuck that traitor Magnus. Good thing I can always count on Horus to be on top of things.

>Boy, that Horus sure is something, isn't he, Rust?
>It's Russ.
>Right, well good job Rush. But man, that Horus tho. This is why he's my favorite.
>Thanks "dad."
>Why are you still here?

>>54160175
>Both of them were going to be problems regardless of Lorgar's meddling.
Which is why they would have been dealt with, eventually
>This is clear in the fluff; your ignorance is not an argument.
Where in the fluff?

>If the Emperor had an issue with it, he could have easily said or done something then or in the aftermath of the Scouring

Like Dorn, who locked his up, or Russ, who is given special exception? Not to mention during the heresy emps was focused on the web way war, and it was Malcador who handled the war at large

>>54163064
Intentions mean nothing.

If I was allergic to peanuts and you baked me a cake with peanuts and I ate it and died, do your good intentions make you less of a killer?

>>54164896
>Russ, who is given special exception?
No he wasnt. Russ is just a hypocrite. Feel free to source that though if you really believe that.

>>54164912
Yes. Are you retarded?

>>54164921
He pretty much was.

Nobody raised a peep that he continued to use rune priests, not even the SoS or the Custodes, which means he was given a waiver, since he was the executioner.

>>54164941
>He pretty much was.
Except he wasnt. Seriously he wasnt.

>Nobody raised a peep that he continued to use rune priests
Yes they did. SW had to lie to Malcadors agents to get a Rune Priest onto Terra.

>>54164931
>durr I know you're dead and I caused it but I didn't mean it

Get out with your Kantian bullshit

>>54151038
If the Emperor was willing to shove man into willful ignorance, blind faith in himself would be better than no faith at all.

>>54164956
A pack of SW had to lie to a bureaucrat to get the rune priest through.

The head of the Emperor's bodyguard, who I think you'll agree has more clout than a bureaucrat, didn't have a problem with it.

>>54153033
>do you know nothing about the fluff or are you being ignorant on purpose?
He's following the "Canonical Truth"

>>54164957
>What is manslaughter
The scary thing is I dont think youre pretending.

>>54164972
Nobody is discussing common law, bucko.

I'm talking ethics.

Or are you such a slave that you base your ethics on the arbitrary decisions of government?

>>54164966
Please show me where its said they were exempt.

>The head of the Emperor's bodyguard
Did Valdor even see the rune presit in action on Fenris?

>>54164996
Nowhere is it officially said they were exempt, but the fact that they were used on Prospero and nobody said anything logically implies they were let off.

And even if Valdor didn't see it himself (dubious) surely some Custodes or Sister did and reported it?

>>54164896
>Which is why they would have been dealt with, eventually
Instead they both went traitor and fucked everything up. Shit, Curze went renegade before the Heresy even happened, which makes their presence in the Istvaan Retribution Fleet a hilarious lore fuck-up.

>Where in the fluff?
Every piece of Chaos Daemons lore ever written. Chaos has never been powered by worship. They're fed by emotion.

>Like Dorn, who locked his up, or Russ, who is given special exception?
Try to keep up, shitposter. We're talking about during and immediately after the Heresy, when everybody started using psykers again and neither the Sigilite nor the Emperor stopped them.

>>54164966
So now Malcador's agents are just inconsequential bureaucrats. Try to pretend to care about keeping your shitposts internally consistent.

>>54165010
>logically implies they were let off.
No thats just the normal SW hypocrisy. If they were exempt Malc agents would know. If anything Russ got off because at that point it didnt matter. Magnus was gone so the only thing that mattered was fixing the Webway Project another way.

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>>54144536

>be a lobotamised slave trained from birth for the sole purpose of entertaining decadent rich cunts
>only purpose in life is to shed blood and have blood shed for them
>over time learn to love fellow slaves
>they are now the only good in my life
>but am forced to kill my family daily for the bemusement of aforementioned cunts

>stage gladiator revolt
>know that all my brothers and sisters will die
>does not matter as i will die with them as a free man
>we are all happy in these moments before out inevitable death
>eve of defeat, we are encircled and will all die soon
>that is fine, i am happy, i will die surrounded by those i love, doing what is right
>i have found peace

>WHAT THE FUCK? WHERE AM I?
>WHO IS THIS FUKBOI WITH GOLDEN ARMOUR?
>WHERE IS MY FAMILY?
>I NEED TO SAY GOODBYE! I NEED THEM TO KNOW!
>YOU CAN'T DO THIS! THEY WERE ALL I HAD! THEY WERE THE ONLY HAPPINESS IN MY LIFE!

>forced to join a almighty warlord with an ego to boot
>the loss of my only family had degraded my mental health
>the only thing that can mask my constant depression, guilt, shame, grief and pain is anger
>i lose myself to my anger
>the nails in my head help in suppressing my pain
>i will never know love or joy or even satisfaction again
>i will do anything to forgot this

and that is why Angron is the most tragic primarch

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>>54165186
YOU ARE WEEEEEAK, ANGRON