"4-40k 8th is better than 7th"

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>>54139580
>7th
>>flyers flew fast and high above the battlefield, requiring specialized equipment to reliably hit
>8th
>>flamers are the best anti-air

The fact that you don't instantly house-rule this oversight says everything about your problems with playing tabletop wargames.

You will receive no points, and may the Emperor have mercy on your soul.

>>54139580
>flamers are the best anti-air
This is how I can tell you actually haven't played a game of 8th yet

>>54140145
>Try to houserule at your FLGS
>Neckbeard says "NUH IT'S RAW"

>>54139580
>mortars, artillery guns, and tanks now will only kill about 2 people from a 50 man horde standing in the open on average
I 100% agree with you on this. It's such stupid shit that shouldn't be defended.
>mechanized and deep strike armies will always get to go first forever and have a distinct advantage the entire game
You have to "set up" units that deepstrike the same way as you do normal units.
>deep striking is completely 100% safe and there is literally no reason not to do it
Yes, it is too easy now. It definitely needs some drawbacks.
>Tournament lists are just finding the most optimal unit in your army and mindlessly copy-pasting up to points limit
Don't know much about the tourney scene so can't really comment.
>same squad jumps out and one of their flamers randomly decides to sputter out and only hit one guy, then people in the back of the squad far away from the fire proceed to die
I agree you should take casualties from the front. At least in matched play.
>a taurox prime can fire 2 autocannons, a 20 shot gatling cannon, and a storm bolter from an antenna
I agree, vehicles should have to shoot from their weapons and still have firing arcs.
>literally the exact same weapon now
Haven't checked out Storm bolters so can't comment on this.
>lasguns wound Raiders on 5s
Pretty sure they wound on 6's, could be wrong, but I agree that everything being able to hurt everything might have been a mistake.
>flamers are the best anti-air
Lol, I never even noticed this.

>>54140241
>pack up your miniatures and never play with idiots

>>54140358

Or just keep your insanely mobile flier out of flamer range?

And you'll still play 8th because theres literraly nothing you can do about it :^)

>Bbbut muh 7th group

yeah, just like the whfb grognard youll disappear in 2 years

>>54140250
>Pretty sure they wound on 6's, could be wrong, but I agree that everything being able to hurt everything might have been a mistake.

If he meant "Land Raiders" then you are correct: Wounds on 6s. Lasguns are S3, Land Raiders are T8

>>54140145
Being able to houserule something doesn't mean it isn't broken. A system should work fine without houserules, or it is a bad system. Get off that dick you fanboy.

>>54139580
7th
>Shooting casualties were removed from the closest model first, but you could only remove models in range and line of sight. (Barring Look Out Sir!).

8th
>Defender allocates all casualties, but casualties can spillover to models out of range and line of sight. A Stormraven can wipe out a 10-man Guard squad if it can draw a line from its wingtip to a single model in the squad.

7th:
>Models could get cover from intervening units. Vehicles and monsters could get cover from being obscured by buildings or other units. Having cover could dramatically impact your survivability, as long as you avoided Ignore Cover attacks.

8th
>A unit must be 100% in cover before any model can benefit from cover. A vehicle that is 99% obscured gets no cover unless it is also actually in cover. This really doesn't matter much anyway since powerful AP weapons will render cover meaningless for those units that need it the most.

7th
>You only get to overwatch once. Choose wisely.

8th
>Overwatch to infinity, as long as the enemy fails to make it into melee.

7th
>Anything can go into Reserves. Chapter tactics/Warlord traits/etc let you manipulate how you enter the map.

8th
>No reserves unless your unit actually has rules for it. Most units must deploy more than 9" away from foes, so the enemy can create an 18" dead zone between units to say "nope" to reserves.

7th
>Psykers were powerful but risky. Invisibility was stupid dangerous if your foe didn't have the tools to counter it, but casting powers was a calculated risk, where greater success rates also meant greater Perils rates.

8th
>Hope you enjoy spamming Smite.

7th
>You could move the enemy around, via Tank Shock, or kiting them via mandatory pile-in/consolidate.

8th
>A blue Horror can block a Land Raider from moving past it. All pile-in moves are optional, so a unit can't be removed from an objective/away from a buff bubble. Congalines are very in.

>>54140474
>nu-GW IDF
>ever conceding that nu-GW can do anything wrong

You're wasting your time, anon.

>>54140392
Supersonic movement means you will be locked into moving in a square, and Hellhounds have the speed and range to catch you.

>>54140620
>8th
>>Overwatch to infinity, as long as the enemy fails to make it into melee.

They pulled their triggers TWICE this phase! How dare they!! How unsporting!!!

>>54140392
>insanely mobile flier
>Gets hit by a guardsmen with a flamer

Lmao

>>54140660
>They pulled their triggers TWICE this phase! How dare they!! How unsporting!!!

Are you retarded? They can keep doing it until they finally manage to get in. That is why it's retarded. What, are you a tau fag or something?

>>54140721
You correctly point out how retarded it is that a flamethrower can shoot down a supersonic aircraft.

But you have this problem against people being charged at... PULLING THEIR TRIGGERS MORE THAN ONCE!

The cognitive dissonance is real.

>>54139580
>7th
>>some vehicles were too heavily armored and powerful to even be scratched by small arms fire
>8th
>>lasguns wound Raiders on 5s

7th: Land Raiders weren't even played because they died instantly.

You can tell this is a troll thread because he chose 7th edition to compare instead of literally any other edition, including RT, because they're all better than the shitfest that was 7th.

Even despite all that retarded shit AND THEN SOME, the overwhelming majority of people STILL prefer 8th because 7th is so bad. 7th is the WHFB of 40K.

What bothers me about this thread is that the OP almost certainly thinks that 8th is better then 7th yet people are going to take the bait and give this thread 100 posts anyway.

>>54140691

Guardsman just sneak up on you anon :^)

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>>54140741
No that was the point in 7th of them only shooting once. Because everything happens at once. It's not like each squad takes their turn charging all orderly, they charge all at once. And the squad has too choose which chargers to shoot at. You're acting like people getting swarmed have the time to shoot at every single group running towards them, but no they really don't.

>>54140871
Automatic weapons and even semi-automatic weapons can fire FAST. Really FUCKING FAST. The 6 to hit represents firing wildly in all directions in a panic - I'm okay with that. But only firing once is as retarded as shooting down an airplane with a flamethrower.

>>54140785
Actually, it's not that they died instantly. It's more that they died to two specific silver-bullet combos (Gravcannon Skyhammer and WWP DScythes), and that they generally didn't have anything worth transporting when it was just easier to spend the points on a Smashfucker Bike Squad, or other combo.

Heavy armor could work if you had the tools to neutralize silver-bullets first. Jon Camacho made top 8 LVO last year with a Zahndrekh/Obelisk/Monolith build by adding Deathmarks to the equation to neutralize those two threats, and only lost to Harrison on objectives.

>>54140931
What about stuff like breech-loaders/artillery, Leman Russes or Basilisks/etc? Also, what makes them able to throw down so many more shots just because the enemy starts waving swords rather than shotguns?

>>54140785
fucking this.

vehicles were universally garbage in 7th. anyone who thinks they were good is straight up retarded.

>>54139580
Artillery does need a bit of a buff. But thankfully mortars and earthshakers are no longer better sniper weapons than actual sniper rifles.

Initiative was fucked in 7th too, specially towards the end with things like 2+ sieze the initiative with ultramarines. But mechanized and deep strike have no influence over it.

Deep striking was extremely high risk, maybe an ok reward, and no reward if it was a melee unit with deep strike. There was no execution to it, all you could do was pray that you passed the reserve roll when you needed to and not scatter too far in the wrong direction. It is extremely reliable now, but with a 9'' no go zone it is hard not to place your units in such a way that nothing can land near your most valuable stuff anyway.

>7th : Riptide/wraithknight/scarbike spam. 8th : people are still looking for a single unit to spam
And nothing changed here.

Smart people never let your flamers get close enough to deploy effectively enough to actually kill more than one or two dudes because of the range limit anyway.

Firing from small part of the vehicles is dumb, but the endless arguments about firing arcs that GW refused to clear up was not ideal either. And vehicles having that limitation whilst monsters and gargantuan creatures could fire everything from their pinky toe was a bit arbitrary.

Lasguns don't wound Land Raiders on a 5. You haven't actually read the new rules, but just googled '8th edition warhammer 40k memes' haven't you ? Besides, only AV 12+ was somewhat safe, and then everybody was spamming weapons with lots of Str 6+ shots and glanced vehicles to death in 3 hits. Vehicles are mostly more durable now.

Whilst is somewhat silly that flamers can hit flyers, in practice it rarely happens unless the flyer actively goes closer to get hit. Units that are fast enough to chase a flyer and get in range to flame it are mostly flying themselves.

7th and 6th were the only editions where combi-bolters were different to stormbolters.

>>54141081
Fragmentary ammunition.

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>>54140931
>semi-automatic weapons can fire FAST.
Really FUCKING FAST

If this was true in 40k, then the basic Bolt gun wouldn't have a maximum of 2 shots, at close range.

> But only firing once is as retarded as shooting down an airplane with a flamethrower.

Are you also saying you should be able to fire more than once during shooting? What makes it different than over watching? Over watching is supposed to represent the panicked fire of a squad as someone is charging them, shooting the first thing they see and believe will reach them.

In 7th this was represented by the decision to either over watch the first people to charge you, or take a risk and wait, possible getting charged in the process. This actually added a little bit of CHOICE in the matter, and didn't let shooting armies(Such as Guard) to just rape every combat army immediately.

In 8th ed, a 50 man conscript squad gets 100 lasgun shots immediately at whoever charged them. Then ANOTHER 100 shots at another squad that charges them, until someone FINALLY gets in.

Does that sound like a good system too you? Like at all? The cognitive dissonance is real.

>>54141200
>Are you also saying you should be able to fire more than once during shooting?

You already do if you have a gun that permits you to, like a Rapid Fire weapon or whatnot.

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>>54141248
Then why do you need to shoot more than once during over watch? You still can rapid fire while over watching.

>>54141248
Yeah but I've always assumed that the number of shots listed in the respective Codexes were the 'maximum firing rate'. So it really doesn't make sense.

>>54141266
Because 40k 8th edition is already heavily weighted in favor of assault, and needs something as a counterweight. 8th is where 1st turn assaults are very easy to do.

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>>54140931

>Hover bikes and even regular bikes can go FAST. Really FUCKING FAST...

Its called a gameplay abstraction that covers everything into firing a weapon dipshit; like IDing targets, getting a sight picture, stabilizing a weapon, aiming at ideal point, etc. Units (generally) do one thing per phase. Its how the game works. Should you be able to fire at every unit within range because "hurf durf they can pull da trigga mo times."

>>54141143
I'm assuming he means Dark Eldar Raiders.

Combi-Bolters were different to Storm Bolters since 3rd.

As for MC and GC, yes it's stupid. The logical fix should be to measure LOS from weapons for said MC/GCs too. Doubling down on the stupid parts of earlier 40k doesn't mean balance, just a net loss for the game.

>>54141315
Then tanks shooting at somebody behind them from a sponson mounted to the front is an abstraction nobody should complain about either.

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>>54141307
>Because 40k 8th edition is already heavily weighted in favor of assault

Are you seriously saying this anon? You can just disengage now, and with guard that unit that disengaged can still shoot with orders.

But even more important now is the unit that charged, is out in the open now. And shootable. AKA dead. This is the balance to combat in 8th, hints the over watch shit isn't even needed, just makes combat armies that much worse.

In 7th you could rely on being stuck in combat, and it was always better to kill a squad on your opponent's turn, so you wouldn't get shot to shit.

>8th is where 1st turn assaults are very easy to do.

And? What I said above still applies, just disengage and shoot them with everything else.

So I'm reading all this and I don't see how any of this is a problem.

Only real problem with 8th is that quantity of dice thrown by Ork boy mob is unwieldy to the point of insanity

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>>54141248
Different anon here. Assuming the model is a space marine:
Rapid fire represents the guns user, having closed the distance with his opponent, being able to take a more triggerhappy approach to shooting, since he will have an easier time hitting enemies at this range, thus getting "two" shots. In comparison, at long range he only gets "one" shot since he has to aim more carefully and conserve his ammunition.
It does not represent him shooting his gun twice.

When you overwatch, he gets those two shots; his opponent is within close range, so he doesn't have to aim carefully.
As the other anon hs stated, 40k is divided into turns for simplicities sake. Everything on the board is essentially taking place at the same time, your three hour long game is actually only several minutes of fighting "in universe".
It doesnt make anlogical sense for a unit to overwatch unit A in a panicked attempt to stall their charge, then turn around orderly and do the same to unit B.
It would make alot more sense if you got to choose to distribute yor overwatch fire againnst the different chargers.
However, I do think that even this option limits tactical decisionmaking.
In 7th, I'd have to choose to have my dreadnought eat up overwatch while risking a plasma shot to the face, or instead take the bolters and plasma to my terminators. Additionally, I would have to take into account the charge distance's required, terrain that might make my dreadnought hit at iniative 1, and also consider enemy initiative and cc capabilities.

I really enjoy 8th, but there are just a couple things I dislike about it.
>templates gone
>overwatch unlimited
>iniative removed (srsly, wtf. Was one of my favourite systems in the game. Trading speed for power, taking into account durability and etc.. made for an interesting back and forth with your opponent where you are both trying to maneuver your units against the right opponents)

>>54141494
Tl;dr
Stop being a faggot , anon.
Overwatch was a mistake.

>>54139580
7th
>Landraider gets blown up by the first shot of the game
8th
>Landraiders always take a serious amount of firepower to put down

7th
>Unreasonable amount of time spent arguing over the precise direction the scatter die is facing and then arguing over how many models are under the template, and asking why the fuck that attack squig is so far off the base
8th
>No scatter attacks, no templates to cause confusion and everything is measured from the base

7th
>Tournament lists were about cramming as many overpowered formations as possible, preferably made of only the most broken of units, then organised into super-formations to reward you even more for paying with 9 riptides
8th
>Take what you want, but if you want to spam any units you're going to get fewer tricks to pull out of your sleeve in the form of CPs

7th
>Literally the worst balance in any edition of 40k ever except maybe 2nd
8th
>It's not that bad. Badly written, but holy shit, not *that* bad

7th
>Your crusaders hide behind your neophytes, your nobz hide behind your boyz, your flamers either hide behind your mooks and never fire or die instantly
8th
>GET OUT THE WAY ORKLETS NOB COMING THROUGH (although characters still hide in the back, come on GW)

7th
>Melee army
>I2
8th
>Fuck you I outmaneuvered you I hit first

>>54140457
Jokes on you my friends and I play 4th edition, and bring in anything interesting and balanced from later codexes.

>>54141346

The difference being that vehicles are large relatively cumbersome things where it makes sense to not need to abstract something like movement.

i.e. Compare how quickly you can turn around vs how quickly you can turn a car around. So in a system (like 7th) that didnt abstract things like vehicle facing, and as a result it makes sense to have restrictions like firing arcs on weapons be around.

Although in 8th with how vehicles are treated I'd probably agree with you because things like vehicle facing and stuff have gone out the window so why the fuck not.

Vehicles needed help in 7th, but they really threw the baby out with the bathwater in 8th. Now they're just glorified monstrous creatures. Which as a tankfag takes a lot of the enjoyment of the game away.

>>54141579

>no templates to cause confusion

the concept of "how many circles are within the larger circle" legitimately confused you, 40k may not be the right game for you.

>>54141676
>Now they're just glorified monstrous creatures. Which as a tankfag takes a lot of the enjoyment of the game away.

As another tankfag, I feel the complete opposite: Now that vehicles are treated the same as monstrous creatures, they lost a lot of the vulnerability that made vehicles absolutely fucking laughable things that, at best, got perma-stunned all game.

>>54141697
>>54141697
>the concept of "how many circles are within the larger circle" legitimately confused you, 40k may not be the right game for you.

To be fair, not just him but it was a cause of contention between lots of players.

>>54141676
If GW wanted to abstract, they really should have had some mechanism for "shoving" enemy units around that wasn't limited to tanks, maybe based off a strength difference between models or so.

Because let's be honest, how fucking awesome would it be to be able to use Bullgryns to bulldoze a path to an objective, or for Land Raiders to just slam enemy Warbuggies out of the way, or Carnifexes to actually be a living battering ram?

Oh yeah.

8th
>Cannot move within 1" of enemy aircraft, and cannot run under them, so they're basically a giant wall of "nope, can't be assaulted".

>>54141712
>they really threw the baby out with the bathwater in 8th

Way to read the whole thing. Or you saying that when you have the opportunity to rewrite ANY rules you want in regards to tanks. That the ONLY way to make tanks not suck horribly was to remove the things that are unique to tanks?

>>54141712
I remember at the start of 7th, it was Wave Serpent spam that was doing best in 40k due to the insanity of infinite-use Serpent Shields and Laser Lock. 5e Annihilation Barges were also crazy-undercosted. Both of these got the nerfbat, and the game skewed back towards bikes or mass-reserve rocket tag...

Marines got better vehicles though between the Gladius, or numerous "here, have POTMS" options. Genestealer Cults also got surprisingly workable mech, simply due to Rugged Construction. War Convo was good with what few vehicles it did have (Shroudpsalm Dragoons were a real pita), etc.

Had anyone went past "hurr, Imma Riptide Wing", the Armored Interdiction Cadre was also actually also rather nasty for its cost too. Cheap Iontides for twin-linked pieplates were a very unexpected form of cheddar.

>>54141760
In our grognard-laden hobby? Yeah, pretty much. The rules for monstrous creatures have been with us for some time now. A complete re-write of how vehicles work risked man-babys shitting their britches in protest. Now, to be fair, just axing the whole damn thing and turning vehicles into monsters STILL resulted in crybabies like you throwing all their toys out of the baby carriage. But I would argue this decision provoked LESS ire that it would have if they tried to REPLACE it. Instead they just cut the whole damn thing.

>>54141740
LOTR did this really well, pretty thematic, Trolls shoving dozens of men all over the place.

Just play 5th ed

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>>54141724
Well those people are fags

How hard is it to roll a 4+ to settle shit that legitimately could go either way.

>>54141724
Hello sapient giraffe who is able to hover over the template directly over with precise deviation.

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>>54141880
>relying on dice to excuse for badly designed mechanic

>>54141853
At that point, might as well play 4th since 5 th added the cancer of tlos

>>54141740

I think a "bull rush" USR could be a neat thing for certain units to have. Maybe "the unit can freely move through enemy units of smaller bases, with everything else working exactly the same as tank shock.

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>>54141920
>cant tell how many shapes are inside another shape
>Badly designed mechanic

Pick one and only one. Next you're going to tell me that using a tapemeasure for movement and range is a badly designed mechanic because your fat sausage fingers cant measure properly

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>>54141893
>>54141724
>not being a gentleman and giving your opponent the benefit of the doubt in these cases
>not being a gentlema capable of reasonbly discussing the differences with your opponent without getting salty
>not being a gentlemen to even the guy known to be a shitty fag about this stuff, and politely either ask a thrid party to resolve the isue or roll a 4+ on it
>not being a gentlemen and letting your opponent kill that one termagaunt more, knowing that one gaunt more or less isn't going to upset your game plan

In my store, you knew who the faggots were based on how they reacted to templates. The only people who gave me shit about templates and scatter distances/directions are the same people who would be just as bad mannered about the rest of the game (smudging charge distances/rerolling "cocked" dice that happen to be bad results/complaining about "you're such a cheesy fag, anon, how dare you play a Landraider and 2 Dreadnoughts at 1500 points"/just being general asshats while playing). Interestingly enough, they usually were pretty shit at the game as well. Also, they're practically all chaosfags, but maybe thats just my store.

On the other hand, everyone else I've played is a GENTLEMAN about templates. I even discussed with an ork player during setup that I'd help him set up and move his ork boys for him to speed up the game, while placing them with 2 inches spacing if possible, and counting it as such wherever not possible due to things like models slipping off of terrain, etc. Was a great fucking guy, and a great fucking game.

>>54142046
Honestly, hex based movement and distance measuring has always been good.

Also scatter die is a shit mechanic. If you must use template, stick with infinity or warmahordes written-on-the-template style. Still inaccurate but easier and faster to manage.

>>54141893
You are at most 24" away from the template (centre of standard 6x4 table from nearest edge). Even if you are a manlet you could just get your phone out and take a picture from directly above the template, it's not difficult

>>54142135
Fact that you have to have gentlemen style resolution at all makes it garbage. Rules should be a neutral entity.

>>54142046
The problem is when there are 11 ork boys in the general area under the base, but the template is in the middle of the table so every player is looking at it at an angle, the template is above the models by several inches due to a nearby piece of cover/vehicle antenna/waagh banner and then people try to argue that this boy has his left toe under the template. That is going to cause a dispute, and that's ork boys. When it's a squad of terminators getting shot at by a knight, a terminator's base juust getting in under the template is a huge distinction as even 1 was a points investment. And nobody can claim any actual high ground, but nobody wants to do the roll off because they both think they're right, so the only solution is to argue it out or to pull a chair over, and then there's the "You moved it! You fucking moved it!" and it just takes forever sometimes. It's usually not too bad, but if you've never had an argument about how many models are under the template you much be playing with the most agreeable players in the world.
And even outside of arguments over templates they just took forever. I thought they were fun, flamer templates in particular I loved (although they caused the most arguments over #models), but they really did bog down the game and cause irritation.

>>54142170
>requiring additional devices beyond the game's basic required supplies to play the game

I was mostly apathetic for templates but you guys have proven how fucking low bar cancer you people are to gaming.

>>54142198
If the terminators toe is under the template then he's under the template. He kinda needs his foot
I'll never understand how people can argue about this stuff and again angles cease to be an issue with the good old picture from above method

>>54142135
You know what else works perfectly well if everyone involved is a nice agreeable person? COMMUNISM.
But people are not all nice and agreeable, and many are in a constant state of trying to fuck everyone else over. This is why we need fascism. Because the jews are going to eat your babies if we don't have systems in place to track them down. It's the glow in the dark niggers, in the red vans, you see them at night and you just keep driving, they step out in front of you you run them over and you keep driving, don't stop.

>>54142218
It's not required but it can prove to morons the exact inarguable truth of what's under the pie plate
I bet you physically roll the 200 dice for the conscript blob instead of doing it digitally to save everyone from dying of boredom every shooting phase

>>54140145
The Oberoni fallacy rears its ugly head yet again.

>>54142177
I agree with you. It shouldn't need a gentleman style resolution.

The point I'm trying to make is that the template problem is more about the players than the mechanic. I honestly don't particularly like templates, but I still would prefer them to randomized shots. The randomizing a mechanic for the sake of simplicity and streamlining annoys me. There's actually an interesting thread about houseruling this issue, go check it out.

I prefer 8th to 7th massively, but I really dislike all the random elements to the game like damage and shots, just like I disliked randomness in 7th for example with he stomp-table or vehicle damge chart.

>>54142177
You're an idiot. Humans will behave however they wish no matter the context.

>>54142324
I'm still mad about obliterators

>>54139580
8th was a step forward in some spots and a step back in other spots.

>>54141409
>everything else
laughingdaemonettes.jpeg

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>>54142287
>digitally
>mfw
If you are bringing 200 conscripts I want you to roll 200 dice fucker

>>54142251
Read the fecking post, if two players are looking at a template at 60 degree angles to one player the ork boy is a few inches clear of the template and to the other his toe is underneath. If you're only doing one template a turn, talking it out or getting the phone out isn't too bad, but if somebody is shitting out 20 missiles or is running artillery spam taking 20 pictures a turn and leafing through all of them is bloody tedious. And, of course, you have assholes who sperg out when you go "ehh, I think it's 8 not 9" and refuse to roll off/take a picture/pull a goddamn chair over. I do generally try to be nice like virtuesignalling >>54142135 over here but it's bloody difficult and when somebody claims a small blast is somehow covering 5 meganobz you have to fight that.

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>>54142264
>muh /pol/
Kek

>like I ever played against fags like that again
>it's another "anon doesn't know how to make friends with people" - episode
Srsly man, you know you don't have to be a dick to people you don't know, just because you don't know them. Its a fucking board game. Stop being an autist.

>>54140250
Large blast templates should have stayed to give artillary and stuff a realistic feel still. For small stuff like space marine missile launchers fuck that the D6 system is way better.

>>54142394
>taking that post seriously
I have much confusion upon me

>>54142456
>posting a gif
>kek
>calling people dicks, lonely and autists
>...
>...
>...
>confusion
>profit
Just as planned

>>54140949
>vehicles only died to skyhammer and eldar wraiths

Bullshit, vehicles died to all commonly played armies. They were literally just ways to eat up one turn of shooting while moving 12" or more. You said it yourself, why take infantry in transports when you can just take bikes and other equally fast units that can jink and don't explode. And don't even try to pretend like "grav skyhammer" is the only way to kill Land Raiders. Grav battle company was far more common, and melta and haywire and all other sorts of shit is everywhere, hell just immobilize the thing and it's worthless.

Why even play this game?

>>54142527

Because you wouldn't be able to show off your painted toys otherwise, and they'd just be useless wastes of money and time.

>people playing with unpainted miniatures/proxies/coins

Those guys are just double retards. The game isn't even worth playing for the rules. It's literally only for enjoying the painted miniatures and terrain and making scenes and battles. The competition-focused aspect of it is just a cancerous tumor that cropped up afterward, much like competitive Smash Brothers.

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>>54142527

>>54142527
Models are well-made and fun to paint and konvert
Playing beer and pretzel with close friends is a blast
Setting is interesting, factions are fun to get into and make your dudes
More hours of enjoyment per euro than many things, it's actually cheaper than most drugs that way

So it requires you to have a sense of fun. No wonder /tg/ hates it, I don't know why so many people here talk about it so much when they all clearly hate it.

Warhammer 40k is primarily a toy collecting hobby for kids and pesudo-kids. Gaming is a secondary concern as for as ANYBODY is concerned. Wait, scratch that, fluff material like books/comics/movies/etc are secondary while gaming gets bumped to tertiary.

Think about it, nobody in their right mind would actually play a 40k game if the models were replaced with cardboard cutouts discs.

People would just fuck off and play another boardgame.

>>54142484
Chill man. We're not as different as you may think, and I didn't say it was the only way to kill them, as much as the most effective way to stop them before they actually got to meaningfully contribute to the game. (Then again, they didn't meaningfully contribute, so bleh).

I would argue that Land Raiders got worse overall in 8th. Yes, they're tougher to kill or neutralize overall. However, they got a notable point hike without as much of a corresponding increase in damage output. They can actually be surrounded and tarpitted in melee by fucking Hormagaunts, but the real wtf is that since Terminators can now fish for Assault values from Deep Strike, or nonTerminator units can charge from a Rhino...what was the point of a Land Raider again?

To make Land Raiders better in 7e, you make Terminators 2 wounds base like 8e, and make Grav stun and immobilize on 6s. Bam, that's most of the Land Raider issues right there alone. Yes, D Wraithknights are still a problem, but nobody took that variant for tournament play when the Deathshroud was around the corner.

>>54142575
>casual players with fluffy list
that's me and I avoid spergs who think I want to waste my time putting models on the table so their cheese list can wipe me out.
>7th
>build fluffy infantry only guard army
>25 min drive to town to have a 1500 game
>guy brings a knight house hold because he said he didn't want to pack a bunch of models up.
>lives 5mins away
I told him he was going to go get another army or i'm not going to waste my time placing models only to pick them up

>>54142810
Stun instead of Immobilize, I mean. Mondays.

>>54142810
>I would argue that Land Raiders got worse overall in 8th. Yes, they're tougher to kill or neutralize overall. However, they got a notable point hike without as much of a corresponding increase in damage output.

Literally everything you said is wrong.

Land Raiders got the LEAST point hikes (read: nearly none, except for the wargear costs like everyone else) despite getting tougher, unlike Rhinos or Drop Pods or RBs or Predators which all got massive price hikes percentage wise, and the basic Land Raider is now extremely good at killing things in shooting unlike before. Four lascannons that each can do 6 wounds isn't better than 2 TL shots?

What do I spam as Orks to win?

>>54142287
I take (and have always taken) a maxed out infantry platoon exactly because I like laughing as I roll a shitload of dice. Eat shit fag.

I hate that its "meta" now. At least everyone knows Ive been doing it for years.

>>54140457
But WHFB players are still around. They're even on this very board!

>>54143056

10/10 creepypasta

>>54139580
I largely think 8e is an improvement of base rules but the change to template weapons does bug me to no end. I also dislike how even the most powerful psykers have barely any options.

>>54142926
The other things I'm mentioning are not necessarily wrong though. Nobody (unless you met that one player that insisted on using the Land Raider Ares) really cared about the Land Raider as an MBT (I suppose you "could" pull a Creed with a Crusader with a Lucifer Taskforce if you were feeling cheeky). They cared about it as a delivery system (though this is a holdover from 5e when Thundershield Terminators were more viable). Considering the changes to Deep Strike and Transport disembark though (no more 6" move + 6" disembark), that part also got relatively nerfbatted, even before you bring up the fact that driving your Land Raider to deliver units into melee ironically makes it more vulnerable to being assaulted and surrounded, preventing said disembark in the first place.

>>54143184

You should probably play a game of 8E before randomly talking about stuff.

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>>54142985
Killa kans, squads of 30 orks, Weird boys , kustom force fields. Gretchin and Big guns

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>>54142985
also try to take up your entier deployment feild with bodies

>>54143319
At that point your opponent will probably get tired of you rolling dice.

Bonus points if you just take a bucket full of die.

>>54143198
I've tried it. The game is full of bugs and I'm not talking Tyranids.

>>54143341
If you have the points, one Ghazkullthrak

daisy chain each indivutal squad to thraka in a flower blossom formation one second let me draw a picture.

heaven or hell mode
all gretchin no boys, they still get the extra attack from gazh

>>54139580
>7th
>>artillery guns and tanks were powerful weapons capable of destroying hordes of enemy infantry if they are clumped together
>8th
>>mortars, artillery guns, and tanks now will only kill about 2 people from a 50 man horde standing in the open on average
Anyone got a source for these mad ravings?

>>54143389
No need for daisychaining. Just take advantage of 8e squad coherency RAW.

>>54142771
Can confirm. Have thousands of dollars worth of models, love the lore, never played a single game.

>>54139580
>t.Assmad Taudar player
Literally the only "people" who miss 7th.

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>>54143419

>>54143510
I miss certain things about 7th like blast templates.
armor facing instead of toughness
measuring from the weapon.
tanks shock and ram.

>>54143821
Wait they removed Armor facing ENTIRELY?

WHY? That's such a cool mechanic!

>>54140620
>>54139580
as someone who started playing in late RT and continued through 2E without pause

I find it bewildering that they've simplified this much and yet brought back movement as a stat, because that was always one of the most overcomplicated, unnecessary parts of the game

having said that, i remember feeling shock and a little disappointment about the simplification of vehicles into facings (as opposed to the insanely overcomplex systems that RT and 2E had used) and the change of bikes and jetbikes into their own type of infantry-like things instead of vehicles

but looking back on it now i can't imagine why we wanted to play those older rules at all, because they were time sinks in the middle of any game and either severely favored the tank or destroyed it in like one hit, with no middle ground where you could force it to slow down murdering you by constant attrition

so i do like the new profile changes when something has taken lots of damage, even if i've got a natural knee-jerk aversion to Wounds being allowed to go over 10

>>54143948
>hur dur let's insert as many cool mechanics as we can

7th Edition

>>54144046
>Let's remove a mechanic that's been in since the inception

8th Edition

>>54143821
>I miss a bunch of bloated unnecessary rules and endless arguments over templates.
Opinion discarded.

>>54144078
>he doesn't know about 3rd Edition

Newfags would love 7E since they probably started in 6E.

>>54143948
don't know if that is sarcasm but i'm going to just play bolt action to get my fix of that.
>>54144122
well that's like your opinion man and I agree they where over bloated but that was 7th as a whole. armor facings and templates aren't all that bad and would work nice with a better simpler over all system.
oh and i only miss tank shock and ram because I don't like that my leman russ can be stop from shooting because 1 lone nid survived long enough to touch it in close combat.

>>54144150
I personally started playing at around late 3rd Edition and 4th Edition, quitting around 5th. So a lot of my knowledge is far behind.

>>54144237
No it's serious. I think Armour is a much better mechanic for vehicles than toughness. More tactical too because you have to think about how your vehicles are facing and have the opportunity to attack from the rear.

>>54144270
>wasn't there for the 2E to 3E shift, which was basically like 7E to 8E
>wasn't around for the most balanced edition of 5E before Wardex creep and the stupidity of 6E and 7E happened

Well that explains it, you literally have two gaping holes at precisely the most relevant eras to this discussion.

>>54144270
if you really like it then check out blot action its rules were written by people who wrote 2nd edition 40k it even has armor values for the top of tanks.

>>54142264
this escalated quickly

>>54139580
tl;dr

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>>54139580
7th
>average game 4 hours, 1.5 of which is actual playing, 2.5 of which is figuring out what the fuck the rules want you to actually do
8th
>2 hours to play the game, 1.5 spent playing and .5 hours learning a new ruleset

7th
>Initiative was entirely fucking random with no skill or strategy influencing it for 1st turn
8th
>Large, ponderous forces like infantry IG, ork hordes, or tyranid swarms usually take 2nd turn, as they should as large unwieldy forces, while small elite forces are granted 1st turn to help represent their fast to deploy nature

7th
>Most template weapons taken purely as "barrage snipers" because even a mouth breathing simpleton knew how to space his models, also templates and blast weapons could only do a single point of damage to MC's, tanks, and characters
8th
>"template" weapons are now immensely faster to play and can potentially damage even a single target multiple times. No more "sniping basilisk" bullshit

7th
>Taking troops for most armies was considered autolose, 99% of all fluffy armies got their teeth kicked in by flavor of the month shenanigans like taudar
8th
>most of the most "OP" formations are armies taking what they're supposed to in the fluff, IG with hordes of infantry backed up by tanks, orks running green tide, tyranids going for aggressive charges, etc

7th
>most armies required $150-$200 of books and supplements to even pretend to be competitive, massively scattered and conflicting rules
8th
>5 fucking books at $25 a pop that cover the entire goddamn game and are more balanced than 7th ever was

7th
>Invisibility
8th
>no invisibility

Comment too long, I could do this all day sadly

>>54141200

>
If this was true in 40k, then the basic Bolt gun wouldn't have a maximum of 2 shots, at close range.

Bolters use 4 round bursts so "rapid fire" is obviously an abstraction.

I'm guessing you're bitching about this because you used a supposedly godly deep strike list and you couldn't roll 9s to charge and think this is a design flaw because you are shit at math.

>>54144765
>5 fucking books at $25 a pop that cover the entire goddamn game and are more balanced than 7th ever was
the only reason I haven't even played 8th is because i don't want to by another fucking book.
one thing I think age of sigmarines got right was free war scrolls

7th
>Invisibility
8th
>no invisibility
yes

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>>54144865
Holy shit that strawman anon,no actually I played renegades and heretics.

>Bolters use 4 round bursts so "rapid fire" is obviously an abstraction.

Post source

Also if you had read all of my reply you would see me describing how it makes more sense, even in the games abstractions, to get one over watching attempt.

Also, for real though I don't know where this "salty deep striker" meme came from, but even if some did run an assault deep strike army and "couldn't roll 9s to charge" they would still prefer this edition, since last Ed they would deep strike, then stand around for a while, till next turn, when they can charge and get shot up tons during that whole thing since their opponent would get a full round of shooting.

Seriously WTF are you on about here anon? Was this just a burst about your local fags complaining or something??

I honestly think 8th edition is so so much better, but I too would like more complexity, some special rules for Chaos Legions/ Space Marine Chapters, woud be really nice, flamers being unable to fire at Flyers unless the user has flying, make the psychic phase a bit more interesting and that'd be good.

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>>54145094
The one good thing FW did was add in a rule about when you shoot flyers they count as being an extra 12" away, so flamers can almost never hit them.

>>54142907
What a fucking intolerable whiner you are
>you chose an army you wanted play that was totally legal within the pre-approved rules of the game just like me but you should change because I don't it!
Is it possible to be more entitled?

>>54145092

You want a source about a logical fucking conclusion? Or did you want a source that boltguns shoot four round bursts? In the latter case I will cite: all of the boltgun fluff for the last 30 years.

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>>54145202
>I will cite: all of the boltgun fluff for the last 30 years.

What the hell are you talking about, I have literally never heard or read about this.

Just because someone who got you into the game told you it doesn't mean it's official fluff anon.

Honestly I think Warlord traits and Psychic powers need to just be bought instead of rolled for
>Why the fuck does my psyker know different powers each fucking game

Have the choice of a few diciplines, pyromancy telekineis etc. Then psychic powers are 15-30-45 points, up to your mastery level. Everybody still knows smite,

Warlord traits are an upgrade, kinda like relics, you can only take 1 per army and only on your warlord, each army has like 5-6 army specific traits. These would usually be either situational, or tailored to a specific style of commander.

Deep strike does need some risks, Tau are really the only people who can threaten them right now

Most armies could use 2/3 more big rules, and a lot of units need some upgrade options they are missing

ALSO, Fucking random shots and damage is annoying, either have a random number of shots, or a random damage, having both is a little annoying tactically, while from playing it isnt too bad, its still annoying enough to mention

>>54145252
>instead of rolled for
that doesn't exist this edition anon, you can just choose

>>54145252
you know that rolling for powers and warlord traits is optional now right?
the cost of the power is included in the cost of the unit,you just choose.

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>>54145263
>>54145273
Damn, i just kinda assumed when i saw the D3 thing, ok my bad

>>54139580
7th

>Melee worthless

8th

>Melee not worthless

The only things I find highly questionable in this edition are flamers hitting flyers, and that flamers and "large blast" weapons don't have some sort of scaling mechanic for hitting larger squads.

I would do this as an additional attack for every five models in the targetted squad that are within weapon range. It would be so easy.

>>54145298
WELCOME TO 8TH NIGGA

YOU GET TO ACTUALLY HAVE FUN

>>54142907
>knight household
>cheese
are you like an idiot
it's annoying to deal with, i fought one today that used a techpriest and a forge world super knight.
Even then it was pretty balanced.

>>54139580
Not gonna lie, there are a few things that piss me off:

>No more Templates
The way they treated it was a bad idea. Flamers, which used to be able to hit multiple targets, now barely averages out to 3 hits. Battlecannons and other weapons that were once used to help mitigate large troop formations getting randomized shots and hits was also a bad idea.

>Deep Strike

Deep striking Melta vets/Raptors/etc. is absurdly easy, and so hard to completely zone out. There is no risk in having a Melta Squad wait in Reserves any more. I would have preferred at least the possibility that they can't deep strike at will, and still needed a dice roll.


Also, while I don't mind the loss of HP, facings, AP value, and BS, I do mind the loss of things like WS and initiative.

>>54142907
dude knights are way more inline now

Fuck, I saw a chaos player running nothing but shit from Dark Imperium starter set kill a gun knight the other day by just smiting the everloving shit out of it and swarming it in close combat.

He lost because he was unlucky and drew the killpoints mission, but I think he could've won had it been objectives or something.

>>54145422
flamers being stuck at 1d6 autohits is fine for me.
That was kinda where the range of models hit was, even if you did get into a large squad just because of how positioning was.

Also, there are a lot of units with multilple flamers so adding extra rules could start getting complicated.

Large blasts I'll give you, because there are already large blasts which get bonuses if the unit is above a certain size. Doesn't need to be on every former large blast, but some could use it.

>>54145454
>now barely averages out to 3 hits
>Barely
>3.5 hits
uh
>Also, while I don't mind the loss of HP, facings, AP value, and BS, I do mind the loss of things like WS and initiative.
some people are idiots or malacius.
I know a guy who played melee armies for 12 years and maintains that his bloodthrister should hit on a +2 because he's 2 higher than the thing he's fighting. and of course you can't hit him.
Initiative was always a bit weird, i can dig it in WHFB but not so much in 40. it feels fine to me because you get a more ebb and flow in cc.

>and so hard to completely zone out.
more than you think
>tfw lost last game because base size of a knight

>>54145454
>deep strike denial

You'd be surprised how much room even just a ten man squad can deny from deepstrike, remember they have to be MORE THAN 9" away and need to fit their whole model on the table.

>initiative

I'm glad they changed it. Melee before was really hands off and had no real skill or tactics to it other than getting across the board. Now, you have actual incentive to maneuver and attempt to make sure that you get the charge over your opponent. Getting a crucial charge off can swing the game in your favor even with less than ideal melee units thanks to hitting first. I'm honestly kind of mad that it hasn't been a thing until 8th now that I've tried it.

As for WS it's still basically in, except in fringe cases where extremely skilled opponents are fighting one another. Shitty units like conscripts still hit on 5's, good units like space marines still hit on 3's. It's just more streamlined as a straight value on the profile and honestly that WS thing was a pain to remember because it almost never mattered. You needed insanely high/low WS's to even have it matter in an average game. Usually all you saw was 3+/4+

I keep seeing the 'you can kill an entire squad by shooting one guy in a unit who's not in cover'thing in every 8th edition thread, but the rulebook is explicit that you roll and resolve each attack separately, and rolling multiple attacks at once is a shortcut. This means that for a squad that was obscured, your have to resolve each shot on the unonscured models in the unit first, and you opponent would allocate each wound as it was generated (likely on the models that are outside cover) until none remain. All other attacks would then be made at the unit with cover bonus. The recent FAQ specifically addressed this situation. This could actually result in a squad during at another, killing all visible units, and being unable to shoot the rest because they are behind a building and out of LiD, for instance.

>>54145711
Posted from phone, sorry for typos

>>54141760

Absolutely. Vehicle rules as they are almost perfect- the only things I don't like are that they're treated like infantry in certain ways, like close-combat and shooting penalties.

imo anything with the vehicle keyword should automatically fire at full BS after moving (but maybe not advancing) and should be able to fire their weapons after leaving a combat.

>>54139580
8th is amazingly fun. I'm having a blast and my games are long and full of exciting moments. I don't know what game you're playing.

>>54145768
I like the -1 BS on the move. It makes sense, but it does penalize BS4 and BS5 armies a lot. I would say it should be -1 BS re-rolling 1s to hit.

The mechanized/deep strike goes first does make sense.

Who's going to be faster at deploying onto a fresh battlefield, a swarm of guys on foot or dudes in APCs?

Dudes in APCs have already taken position ready to fire/charge while the other army is still waiting for the back line to get to the battle.

>>54141409
>it was always better to kill a squad on your opponent's turn

See this is why that was weird. In actual combat, don't you WANT to wipe out the other side's troops as fast as possible?

>>54141697
I say 8 circles are 51% in the circle.

You say 4 circles are 51% in the circle.

Now what?

>>54141712
True. If you could just keep hitting a tank with a missile every turn to prevent it from firing, you at least should be able to do the same to a carnifex.

>>54141740
>>54141835
>>54141972
this would be cool for stuff like Ogryns. The base size thing might work IF GW included base sizes in the unit profile (to settle shit once and for all).

And I'm saying this as a guy who owns a fuckton of metal termies on old slottabases.

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>>54141409
>the whole stuck in combat thing

That worked wonky and I think just about everyone hated it. Being able to break from combat absolutely needed to be in in one way or another.

The problem is there is literally no risk to falling back as an IG player, and really for anyone. You really mean to tell me that a unit turning its back on a unit its in close combat with is going to escape with 0 issues whatsoever? My conscripts can turn their back and run from a khorne daemon prince and he can't do a damn thing to make me pay for it.

I really feel there should be an attack of opportunity whenever you want to break from melee, say perhaps every enemy unit that you are breaking from gets a free swing. It makes sense and honestly wouldn't change IG tactics in the slightest, since we write off anything that ends up in close combat anyways. It would give an actual reason to stay in even for armies that can fire after falling back, which is the kind of thing that makes the game more interesting and have more depth. Wouldn't even be hard to implement either.

It would be about the only tweak melee needs in my eyes. It's already been drastically improved and feels like a legitimate tactic now, hell I'm even countercharging as IG, I never did that before. It's fun and takes a lot of clever maneuvering, making the opponent have to sweat out the decision to fall back would be the missing piece it needs to be great.

YOU ARE ON A QUEST!!!!!

Your ship arrives through the warp, into the dark confines of the Tiab system.
Tiab II is a Hive World, where the unrest of the populace threatens to boil over.
Tiab IV is a toxic jungle world, said to be infested with horrible creatures, but also containing ancient secrets of technology.
Tiab VI is supposed to have a garrison outpost on it, but now word has been heard in some time...and the last known communication was a cry for help...
What course do you set?

>>54141143
Dark Eldar Raiders are toughness 5. That's what he meant.

>>54140457
Fucking whfb general is more active than AoS general and that speaks volumes of how GW fucked up with that "game" that is AoS

>>54141579
this

>>54145427
>fought one today
>7th edition

>>54141418
The problem is that 7th was so fucked up that it gave us higher tolerance to bullshit, but after reading some post I realized they're kinda right in most points.

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>>54139580
>lasguns wound Raiders on *6s
Unless I've got a 100 shots (granted not an unrealistic assumption) I would be better off trying to kill a Terminator or a Riptide.
Yeah Lasguns CAN wound an LR but I'd doubt it would really accomplish anything.

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They took the fire ports off my Chimera in 8th!

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>>54146390
And the amphibious rule, and the command tank rule!

>>54145111
>The one good thing FW did was add in a rule about when you shoot flyers they count as being an extra 12" away, so flamers can almost never hit them.
Wait what, where?

>>54146390
It's still an amazing transport. The Lasguns are even better than they were before since it can be from anywhere on the tank. It's durable, and has tons of weapons.

>>54140633
>preferring literally 7 books for a single game rather than an attempt at making a passable rule system

>>54146402
>And the amphibious rule, and the command tank rule!
Did they really?
Or did you just overlook something?

>>54146500
no they're definitely gone, most things across the board lost little rules like that, not just IG.

Hell you think that's bad, IG lost their platoon structure as well.

Here's hoping little things like that come back with our codex.

>>54146164
Makes sense that lasguns and bolters ought to rip those things apart. I mean look at them. Seriously. Do they look tougher than a freaking Sentinel?

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>>54146473
The shit truck thing with track is better now. I could place my weapons teams or vets in chimeras and fire potentially at four different units in a turn. Now that's gone, replaced by Scions and shit trucks being better for mech lists.

Its not as bad as all the stuff OP mentioned, but its the little things that get me going the most. Why can't we just make 7th easier to understand and less redundant instead of "lets just remove shit tournament fags don't like (templates, niche rules like command tank and amphibious, platoon squads, fire ports, firing and facing angles ect.) My friend was a Tau player, I fought the BS riptide shit, my other friend was an ork player who got his trucks exploded by plasma guns on turn one. 7th had problems, but there are better ways to fix them than just gutting the system of things.

>>54146390
>>54146402

I'm just annoyed that they keep NOT putting in the perfectly good autocannon turret option.

>>54146473
agreed. T7 W10 sv3+ makes it way more survivable now *and* it can concurrently transport 3 command squads or 2 special weapon squads. Not bad.

>>54140145
>this Product is shit!
>no it's not, you just need to fix it yourself!

>>54146590
>having a ton of guys shooting heavy weapons out of the top of a chimera

Let's be honest here, that was always dumb and never should've been allowed from firing points to begin with.

Also, these indexes are intentionally simple. GW intends to rerelease proper codexes with all the little details since there was no way they could've fit all the relics, army specific warlord traits, and other odds and ends that would've taken up space otherwise.

It's annoying yeah that I'll need to buy another book, but it's not the worst thing in the world, especially if the codexes are cheap too.

>>54146149
Exterminatus on II and VI and frost IV by throwing an asteroid into nerby ocean or plains and cause a mayor ecological collapse

>>54141494
>9gag watermark
Christ

>>54146590
>7th had problems, but there are better ways to fix them than just gutting the system of things.
7th had more problems than any other edition of 40k, ever.

8th has some problems too but it just came out and GW is being pretty quick with the FAQs and balance adjustments. As someone who has played this game through every single edition since the beginning I can say honestly that 8th is already in the running for the best the game has ever been and it doesn't even have any bloody Codexes yet.

>>54146729
>They can't mount the weapon on the hatch in the back
>You don't think people would possibly fire weapons out of a hatch despite the fact GW literally loves selling tank models with the crew doing just that.

>>54146779
I think you missed the part where I said heavy weapons

Lasguns, shotguns, meltas, plasma, etc. that all made sense. Heavy crew served weapons mounted on tripods do not make sense to just pop out of a man sized hatch and shoot.

>>54146779
And if there were rules for the guy exposing himself out the hatch to fire getting shot in the head, that would be fine, but that adds in a bunch of unnecessary complexity.

>>54146804
>Man sized
>He doesn't know about the two door hatch on the back

>>54146778
Watch as the codices ruin it instead of making it better.

That said, I played 3rd, 5th and 7th and I must say, 8th is by far the most fun I've had.

>>54146808
There aren't rules for guys in open topped transports with fire ports currently in 40k getting shot, why does it matter? If anything they can at least duck down back into the hatch.

>>54146188
>this much denial

The archive have 400 more threads for aos than whfb in the last 6 months.
For each whfb thread theres 3 to 6 AoS thread. Thats a fact everybody can look up.
Just wait fir a new AoS release, most of the talk in whfb is also About total war and "muh strigoi headcannon" copy and pasted in every thread, only the name of the thread has anything to do with Warhammer Fantasy Battle

I've been playing since 3rd edition. I think comparing editions misses the point as the game needs to stand on its own , not just 'fix' perceived issues in a previous edition.

The question you need to ask yourself is why are you playing 40k?

Are you trying to have a narrative game that reflects the fluff ?

Then 8th edition fails at this. The unit selection is bland and multiple units essentially play out the same way with jarringly little difference between say a heavy tank list and a list with a lot of.monstrous creatures.

Multiple rules further go against what would Intuitively make sense such as flamers being strong anti air, cover not actually providing any cover to units , and multiple units not having rules that represent what they do in the fluff. For example Genestealers have no.means to infiltrate the enemy positions. This is narratively disengaging.

So then is 8th edition a good tournament game ?

The answer is no. The games rules are still a confusing mess due to there being no USR system and rules instead being spread over hundreds of unit entries which aren't cohesively written themselves. There's few tactical elements such as positioning , risk/reward units,l and use of cover. While wider strategic elements seem to boil down to spamming units. With the latest tournament won by an army consisting almost entirely of flyers.

So does 8th edition provide a good casual 'beer and pretzel' game.

I'd say no. The rules are still overly complicated and unintuitive to run even a simplistic game. People don't play something basic like checkers for the game to be decided by a dice roll due to an argument over if a king can capture another king. While the game itself is actually really bland and boring to play, it fails to engage in any real exciting level.

So what exactly is the purpose of 8th edition ? I can't see one.

If you want to respond please defend the merits of 8th by the edition itself not by saying 'well it was just as bad/worse in 7th'

>>54146836
Rising power creep could probably be made less of a problem if the each codex was worked on by a team of writers rather than just primarily one guy so we don't get instances of some dick writing the new codex for a faction he doesn't like.....and that all the codices are written at about the same time so that obvious power creep isn't so blatant with later books just being better than earlier ones.

>>54146521
They loss of platoons is great. It makes it easy to farm those command points.

>>54145471
IMO killpoints should be awarded based on power level.

>>54141676
>>54141712
if only big tanks had facings and were -1T at the sides and -2T at the rear. basically everything that is supposed to stay backfield.

other vehicles (APCs) shouldn't

>>54145427
Did you not read the part where i was trying to run a fluffy infantry list.
3 knights vs an army of mostly s3 sorry at 40$ for 3 i didn't have 20 las cannons.
so what was your list?

>>54147119
killpoints are important for keeping MSU in check

>>54146820
That two door hatch on the back allows you to shoot from the front.

What if they are both shit and homebrew is master race if you have any friends.

>>54145145
I don't really play to win so I build competitive lists I like to have thematic list I also wont run a named character under 3000 pt.
but no i'm not going to spend 2 1/2 hours watching the guy kill my 3 lascannons (the only units that could hurt his knights) then just roll dice so i can pick up my models.
he can go home and roll dice by himself if that's what he calls fun.
If you don't like it I just find a game with someone else.

>>54147224
MSU already has a bunch of drawbacks this edition and is much less of a big deal than before given universal split fire.

ITC is already houseruling Kill Points based on PL instead of 1 per unit and it makes the game a lot better. Some lists are literally unbeatable without tabling them with kill points RAW.

>>54145145
>>54145427
why not look at the post I was originally replying to.
Ever here of a friendly game? are list with a theme and not just a spam of special characters and god tier units wrong?
should I be list tailoring on a pick up game?

>>54147258
>any friends
This is the problem anon

>>54147263

Yeah, my major issue with 8e is the whole 'Based on number of models' stuff. As you could wipe out 90% of a guard list and still have less models than the other guy.

>>54147327
yeah, that is one factor that they simply did not properly price in for hordes

Jeez OP, while i agree on things that you have about artillery being ineffective, i feel that you have ignored a lot of the good coming from 8th, such as the new ap system, buffs to units that really needed them (Termies getting 2 wounds and tyrannides as a whole) as well as many other benefits, besides its not like they don't have a chance to fix it when the individual indexes come out. Though the FAQ doesn't give me much hope

>>54146741
SUCCESS!!! The great cities of the hive world burn in a cleansing fire; whatever fate befell the outpost on VI shall not live to escape.
While you await the ecological collapse of IV to run its course, you get some hint of what may have happened to Tiab VI - a Necron fleet suddenly arrives in-system, bearing a course towards the now-ruined Tiab IV.
You could confront them, flee, or something else.
What course do you set?

>>54140620

wew lad. I'm not saying 8th is a perfect system, but you are certainly remembering 7th with some rose colored glasses.

Your "powerful but risky" psykers were actually utterly broken and utterly random. It completely boggles my mind how anyone could possibly defend Invisibility, of all powers. Perils was barely a risk at all.


Reserves was a shitty mechanic forever. It was never the kind of tactical, game-changing move that it should have been. Instead it was something players used to keep fragile objective keeping units out of the game for as long as possible. Transport flyers were a joke in 7th, taken by Necrons sometimes and nobody else.

Essentially, a casual game of 7th was a non-stop rules lookup festival, and a competitive game of 7th was List Building: the Game.

8th has a lot of problems. But it is a far, far better game than 7th.

>>54142135
>that perfect expression

>>54141550

You mean the rule, the concept or the videogame?

>>54148291

Yes

>>54144122
>Four grots pinning a tank in place

>>54144150
Only one of those not in 3e was ram.

>>54144357
>the most balanced edition of 5E
You mean, go mech or go home edition?
If you can't into metal boxes why bother edition?
MinmaxmeltaMSU edition?

>>54145422
Grots moveblocking tanks?

>>54145934
It penalises low bs armies much more. Orks halve their firepower, marines lose a quarter.

>>54146908
This.
7th was garbage, better than it doesn't mean good. If it's better than 6th and 7th, it could be worse than more than half of all 40k editions thus far. If you must compare it to another edition, compare it to something that succeeded in something, and on that front.

>>54146908
>So does 8th edition provide a good casual 'beer and pretzel' game
>I'd say no. The rules are still overly complicated and unintuitive to run even a simplistic game. People don't play something basic like checkers for the game to be decided by a dice roll due to an argument over if a king can capture another king. While the game itself is actually really bland and boring to play, it fails to engage in any real exciting level.

I disagree.
The games my friend and I would play were very drawn out for him as a newish player. Having to constantly remind him what key words do. Lots of headaches as he was trying to remember what BS4 hit on compared to WS4 being a comparative table etc.
Then me as a veteran player having USR confusion between what they did across the past 2 editions I had learned.

The handful of games we have had in 8th have been a breeze where w ehad a lot of fun and bashed them out in half the time without the mental fatigue at the end.
We even did a 3 player game with the rules for multiplayer with a friend who hasn't played 40k in 8 years. He picked it up and was making moves and rolls autonomously by the end.

The new index format is utterly retarded

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>>54139580
Quick reminder there's now a /tg/ 40k discord

>>54148725

https://discord.gg/VcZNNd4

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The only things I find a little questionable in 8e are that they seem to have overnerfed blast weapons, and that flamers shouldn't be AA.

Everything else has been a really solid set of changes, resulting in a more tactical game overall. Instead of just spamming OP formations and rolling dice at each other until one side wins, people are actually taking fluffy TAC lists and using their brains to win.

Movement, positioning, and unit spacing are all way more important in 8e than they ever were in 7e, and the assault phase is now a game unto itself that requires some thought about what would be the most beneficial, both in terms of choosing what order to resolve your attacks, and in terms of deciding how to move and consolidate with your assaulters to get the biggest benefit possible. Melee isn't an auto-lose for armies like Tau or IG, either, I've actually seen IG players deciding to charge with infantry squads as a legit tactic, for instance.

The abstractions are different, and you might not like them, but as far as being a good game goes, 8e is a massive improvement. I've played since 3e, for anyone wondering.

>>54147205
mechanized infantry guard.
i.e. the steel legion and how it was meant to be played
As much as it sounds stronger than yours remember multi lazers are trash and he alpha striked my big guns.
so two lemans, two lisks. 50 something infantry and 3 chimeras. the avenger rottery guns fucked me dude

>fluffy
>no hwts?
look man i don't expect you to break the bank but with cadian's don't you get heavy weapon teams now? at the very least you can pick up the gene stealer neophyte guard who do.
And it works better than you think because you can throw in one of those rapiers that come with the search lights by getting a heavy weapon team.
it's what makes your army work because your special weapons don't even come in the box anymore

>>54147304
>why not look at the post I was originally replying to.
nigger that's the only reason i replied.
>Ever here of a friendly game?
of course i have.
>are list with a theme
His list is a theme, and a valid one at that.
This isn't imma cram ripetides and other things in it because they are optimal.
This is 2-5 big guys (4u). Slow if you're playing 7th, sustiable to laz guns if you're in 8 (i joked with the guy was playing, laz guns were able to widdle him down quite a bit).

>and not just a spam of special characters and god tier units wrong?
Spam is the least efficient form of WAAC but even then you've just declared this man OP and WAAC without giving any indication of his character.
And you also because of your own choices have chosen not to supply yourself with the tools you'll need to defeat armour.
You have a lot of advantages over knights being infantry. Most of it body count and cheap weapons.
Hell if you also want to be fluffy, lisks and cores are artillery. It's not like Infantry do not get divisional artillery support. And again the leman Russ is a infantry tank nothing wrong with having a couple.
But with all that you still want all blobguard, fine but then why aren't you picking up some support weapons, getting some metla vets, pyskers or scions.
You have so many tools you can fit in your army to keep it fluffy that it sounds like your wallet is a hard limit.
creativity too.

>should I be list tailoring on a pick up game?
Make all comer lists.
You've got shit anti in with guardsmen but you don't have anti amrour or MCs or Heavy Inf.

>>54139580
Oh come on OP, give GW a chance, they need to release stuff as fast as they can, looks like Cevin still believe 40k could get throne back.

>>54145111
I only know about this being for the Manta, but more flyers really should have had this, it also makes them immune to most melta.

>>54150478
they are 40$ for 3 and i had 18 heavy weapons
3 being lascannons and 6 being auto cannons
and i was going for no vehicles because i was disgusted by a guard player that ran nothing but vehicles.
even if i all my heavy weapons were lascannons the rest of my army would have been pointless and boring.

>>54147717
Invisibility was too good, agreed.
The point though was "more Warp Charge"=greater odds of success, but higher chances to perils. The problem was the system is all or nothing. Did you roll 5 successes to cast Invisibility? Your opponent needs to roll 5 6s or else not bother.

8th has a similar problem to a lesser extent. Roll a 11 to Smite with Magnus?

I think the 7e system itself would be a *lot* better if:
-Each Psyker got 1 + ML Warp Charge, but could only use their own Warp Charge.
-Psychic Powers didn't have fixed costs, but had degrees of success. Casting Scouring Flame with only one success is S5 AP 4. With 4 successes, its S8 AP 1.
-Deny the Witch subtracts successes, rather than being "deny or eat shit."

I seriously doubt the Tzeentch lists of "I hope you like spamming smite" are an improvement.

>>54148351
To be fair, the 5e Space Marine armies could all do different flavors of "no mech" builds and the runnerup at Nova 2011 was Blackmoor's Draigowing (the only vehicles being Psyfledreads).

What was more irksome for 5e was that it was the edition where planets ate Tyranids. :)

>>54150665
>You have so many tools you can fit in your army to keep it fluffy that it sounds like your wallet is a hard limit.
no its because I wanted infantry first
I was disgusted with the over use of tanks, people bringing flyers and superheavies at 1000pt> desu when I did this was about a year ago. I joined a much better group that has rules against what was mentioned above.
I also added tanks after I finish collecting all the infantry.

>You've got shit anti in with guardsmen but you don't have anti amrour or MCs or Heavy Inf.
again this was a year ago and part of my reasoning was i played tau before guard and i felt sick of being a max cheese army.
>And again the leman Russ is a infantry tank nothing wrong with having a couple.
just use tanks in my infantry only army?
never got around to earth shaker cannons because I hate forge world

>>54149273
>Movement, positioning, and unit spacing are all way more important in 8e than they ever were in 7e

Is this bait?

Units don't need to be in coherency anymore. The only 'tactic' is endless daisy chains. Cover is almost entirely meaningless so positioning units in it is pointless. Positioning is pointless as units don't have firing arcs anymore Rana your land raider can fire everything from its treads) and you can pick who dies in a unit fired at.

Combat is a confusing cluster fuck and not particularly skillful to work out in terms of order, once you've worked out the relative strength of units it's fairly trivial to go I'll fight with this one first. I never saw what was wrong with intiative and how this method is somehow simpler.

>>54146884
Are your search parameters correct? The Warhammer Fantasy general goes by /whfbg/, /whfg/, /wfg/ and all sorts of other permutations.

>>54140358
Nuh, I'm trying to win free shit.

>>54141697
People are dicks. That's not a very hard concept.

>>54152053
Let me guess, you still think AOS is an unredeemable pile of garbage with no tactical depth. Fairly simple changes like varying movement, better assault, and units disembarking before the vehicle moves make movement that much more important, as you often need to think a few turns in advance as to where you want your units to be. Daisychaining recklessly makes it very easy to outflank strings of boyz and position your units right next to the buff characters, so tactics are required on both sides to maximise the effect of characters while not abusing them so much that you leave an opening. Cover was always broken, TLOS has always made cover complete shit and I'm glad to see the game moving away from it. And combat is only "a confusing cluster fuck" if you're bad at the game, gitting gud really opens the phase up. The problem with initiative was that only dedicated close combat units ever stood a chance in melee because otherwise they'd be raped without recompense, and initiative was generally army-based rather than unit-based, so even crappy eldar shooty units would hit before dedicated ork close combat monsters, completely fucking up unit purpose.

>>54152302
>Let me guess, you still think AOS is an unredeemable pile of garbage with no tactical depth.
>implying there is tactical depth in "buy Stormcasts/Sylvaneth/Tzeench/ whatever new release and wipe enemy out of table"

Watched game between Iron hands and IG few days ago.
Durring the whole game they've moved only 4 miniatures

>>54144951

I honestly don't mind 25 bucks for what was 5 or 6 codices worth of rules before. Imperium 2 is great. All the books are right there for you, and it's easy to make a big, fluffy, unified force. Same with Eldar or Marines. Kinda the only bummer is for Tau or Orks, but fuck Tau.

>>54152429
Nice

>>54152521
And the conscripts blown up Land Raider

>>54152430
My real problem with the indices is how shittily they're written. I was initially planning on buying all 5, then I saw that all the armies had been gutted, equipment lists are barebones, several units have been removed, army special rules were reduced to a shadow of their former selves, and they're filled with typos and wied rules errors (3 wound acolytes, infinite celestines, etc.)
Same deal with forge world. I would buy index xenos if half the units in it weren't broken.

>>54152545
Nicer
It sounds stupid but for me it do has some logic that small arms fire can damage vehicles (destroying optics & weapons)

>>54152591
>damage vehicles (destroying optics & weapons) I've said destroyed, not damaged
The unification of monsters and vehicles is one of the laziest game-design decision of GW.

>>54152302
Initiative was the least of Ork problems and still is. Their weakness is the Ork army has really weak support, and tactical variance once you actually get in-game. In an edition where everyone could do reserve manipulation, psychic shenanigans, orders, canticles, move-shoot-move or other shenanigans, the only option they got was "Waaagh this turn?" Only it wasn't an option. It was either always ("Green Tide") or never ("Zhadsnark").

>>54152591
Damaging optics and stuff is one thing. Causing a Land Raider to explode because you threw enough rocks at it is another.

At the risk of overcomplicating the game further, I always felt vehicles or monsters should either have multiple profiles ("target the tracks!"), or a WMH-like damage grid, maybe modified so flanking lets you dictate where you start removing damage from.

So if you shoot a vehicle from its right flank, you're not going to destroy its sponson on the left, etc.

>>54152895
That, while fun in a smaller game, would slow the game down even more. As it is it is abstraction for the sake of making the game playable.
As for the lasguns destroying a land raider, eventually the land raider will become completely unoperational. All the cables powering the lascannons have been slagged, the heavy bolters can't fire through a deformed barrel, every possible optic has been melted, and the tracks have warped. At that point it is a box waiting to be pried open and captured. And since we don't want to have rules concerning guardsmen or orks entering the land raider to capture it (Ok I actually would), we just say it is destroyed, and roll a dice to see if the crew hit the self destruct button, because they can't see or get outside.

>>54151737
>no its because I wanted infantry first
yeah i find that a reasonable thing, even if i hate the current plastics.
My point is being guard you have so so so many tools between fw and gw that can be dreamed of in their philosophies. even as a footslogger.

>I was disgusted with the over use of tanks, people bringing flyers and superheavies at 1000pt> desu when I did this was about a year ago.
I was always a big enemy of formations as opposed to units, some act actually just too point efficient mostly super heavy walks.
as such 8th has been my favorite edition since 4e

>just use tanks in my infantry only army?
Inf only is a bit of a weird thing, i mean there are things as support tank, see the churchhill, Matilda 1-2, t-26, valentine and i think the char bt (it was designed for infantry divisional support) which the leman russ is inspired by.
my point is if you don't want to have a krieg boner for HWTs then go for some of that. Or do something, there's a whole bunch of tools we can use against folks.

>never got around to earth shaker cannons because I hate forge world
you can just grab a basilisk, take the carriage and place it on a base and use the hull for a centaur or something.
Lods of FW things can be replaced.
I was talking about the saber weapons batteries or as i call them guard marker lights again something pretty easy to kitbash/convert
I've got one left over from my medusa so i was planning on giving it the old kit bash

>>54139580
It's always amusing to see 40kids trying to paint any edition of Warhammer as tactically intricate.

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>>54153131
40K is a game for intelligent people!!!

Therefor I, by extension, am intelligent!!!!

Go play MONOPOLY if you disagree!!!!!

>>54140474
If you think a game system needs to make it clear that flamethrowers can't shoot down airplanes, you are medically retarded.

>>54152895
I highly doubt that IG player killed the land raider with only lasguns.

Odds are most of the wounds were taken off with anti tank weapons and it just happened that the lasguns got the final wound or two.

>>54146024
well real life also doesn't operate on a turn system. especially not the "one army does all their actions, then the other side does all their actions" that has traditionally defined 40k.

>whole community is satisfied
>even salty 40kg likes it
>lgs reports people feeling free of horrors of 7
>shit's all fluffy now
>but muh realism!

>>54153765
if people want realism they need to go play a historical war game like bolt action.

>>54153812
It's not about realism, it's about rules quality, it looks like GW made 7th ed. so shitty just to make new one look way better, while being totally braindead-ruleset

>>54152714
>The unification of monsters and vehicles is one of the laziest game-design decision of GW.

Yes but it made no-sense that one luck lascanon shot could blow up even the most armoured vehicle yet only scratch bio-monsters at best

>>54154188
personally I wished we would've seen Monstrous creatures treated more like vehicles, if only to reel those damn tau walkers into line. It made no sense that they were CLEARLY VEHICLES and yet followed none of the rules for them when everyone else did

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>>54142985
>What do I spam as Orks to win?
Orkfag here.

Haven't gotten in a game of 8e yet, but I have watched a couple other Ork players win a match or two recently, so here's my two cents/tips for winning:
>Full mobs of boyz. Try to get at least 2 mobs of 30 boyz if nothing else. Even if you had a bunch of smaller mobs in 7e and need to reorganize your army to do so, the special rules that come with having the maximum number of boyz per mob are worth it (especially since you're only allowed 1 'eavy weapon per 10 boyz in the mob now).
>Also, 8e lumped the old Shoota/Slugga Boyz into one big unit of "Boyz", so you can pretty much merge 15 Shootas & 15 Sluggas into the same mob.
>Weird Boyz are a really good thing to have. Not quite a must, but they will really up your chances at victory
>Mekboyz and Kustom Force Fields
>If you like running MegaNobz or your Warboss is in MegaArmour, make sure you stick them in a transport like a trukk or Battlewagon (not sure if you can lump 'em in the same trukk or not[probably not] since unless I'm mistaken HQs don't have bodyguard's anymore)
>Grots are surprisingly dangerous now (hell, the name of their special rule "Surprisingly Dangerous in Large Numbers", where if you have a mob of 20 or more models you add 1 to their hit rolls.)
>Big Gunz are useful again (holy shit, I never thought I'd actually be using my Lobbaz in a game again) Although since my Looted Basilisk is now a Battlewagon (damn it Geedubs), I don't have much choice I guess
>For Fast Attack, take Deffkoptas over Warbikers, but if you can field both, do it.

>>54154361
Riptides are still classed as monsters
this triggers me even as a taufag

>>54154188
Realistically though, it was far more likely for vehicles to die by HP removal than by actual explosions. This became even more true after 7e. A more ideal fix (for streamlining sake) would be: Add a few extra HP to everything, but make vehicle damage mods start at AP3 instead of 2. Replace vehicle destroyed and instant death with "lose an extra d3 HP/wounds" where vehicles explode if this causes the last HP to die.

Really, fixing 7e should have been a more gradual process, one of gradual changes to both internal and external balance (ex, making the HYMP Heavy 2 Blast instead of Heavy 4, or making SMS 2 shots but precision shot, etc.), paring back redundant USRs (gb Soulblaze), etc.

8e is one step forward, 3 back, and most of the defenders of it are going "at least its not 7e."

I remember the start of 7e was just like this, and you had the GW JIDF saying the 7e Ork Codex was a sign it would be a "more balanced" edition.

>>54154663
>Although since my Looted Basilisk is now a
Battlewaggon or Bigtrakk with 60" heavy 2d6 S8 -3 Supa-kannon

>>54141673
4th edition? Ha! We still play 1e Rogue Trader with all the micromanagement that holds (grenades for only some of my Marines to save points, did I remember that knife?). Last game my friends Eldar War Walker destroyed my heavy weapons marines quickly so I had nothing that could penetrate that T10 powerfield. Still, previous game I virused his entire Harlequin troupe first turn, save for the sealed Death Jesters. How fun! Still love it.

Oh, and we had save modifiers then, so what's all the fuss?

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>>54146102
>IG writes off anything in close combat
>3+ WS Kriegers with Pistol 2 lasguns

I'm not locked in combat with them, they're locked in combat with me.

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>>54155192
There was no saving or salvaging 7th edition. Had superheavies, fliers, pysker bullshit, ally abuse, and the insane formations that appeared later on not shown up, maybe it could've been saved. However, it became a hideous mess and only a complete reboot could've saved the game.

Play 8th, seriously, its a much better game even if it's a bit simplified, the "game" part of it functions far better and most units act just as fluffy as before, if not more so. People complaining about it being too simple need to remember just how damn big your average game is. Most of the shit you guys want in this are fun mechanics and great ideas, IN A SKIRMISH GAME. 40k regularly has multiple vehicles and dozens of infantry per side. Blast templates, vehicle facings, random damage tables, scatter, random terrain movement, etc. etc. etc. became way too clunky at 2000pts and drastically slowed the game down. 7th edition as a setting would've been fine if the biggest game you ever played was 1000pts, but that just wasn't the case.

Yes, tournament play is a clusterfuck. Anyone seriously going into 40k for tournament play is insane, you should be looking for damn near anything else to get your tournament fix, because most games actually support their tournament scene and are built with it in mind.

For casual play, I have seen more "correct" and fluffy armies succeed than ever before, ever since I started in 5th edition. Players are rewarded for bringing TAC lists and in general troops units actually have a purpose to existing as compared to 6th and 7th. Superheavies and the like have been reeled into line a bit so that your average army actually has a chance against them, pyskers got a desperately needed sledgehammer to the kneecaps, and character deathstars built by overlapping special rules got thrown in the trash like it needed to be. Watching your average game actually looks like something from the books now, and that is a good thing.

>>54139580
7e achieved shitty gameplay via a lot of rules. 8e achieves shitty gameplay via less rules. Ergo 8e is less bad.

>>54155477
Flyers sucked in 7th, especially for scenario play. FMCs were another story. Maybe half of this has to do with how FMCs ignored restrictions on LOS targeting, the same way MCs like the Riptide ignored LOS? Hmmmm?

Terrain should just be "move half distance" like 2nd ed. Now, it does jack, except if you want to charge into cover. (The fact terrain is an "advanced rule" is also sad).

7e Psykers were alternately powerful or shit. You either ran them as a shriek vector if you had low psi rating, or for invis fishing if you wanted to play a deathstar hammer. Armies like 1k Sons/Grey Knights got to eat shit. Guess what, they still suck in 8th, and the best psi is finding the cheapest ways to get Smite off, or using a single power to slingshoot your biggest beatstick into melee.

The first notable 8e tournament winning army had as many fliers as it had troop models. Other counterlists are including Dark Eldar with Doom and spamming Voidraven flocks, to ca-caw said Stormravens dead. I seriously don't see how this is an improvement, either from a army-building standpoint or from a fixable standpoint.

There are...three notable problem formations in 7th: The Riptide Wing, Aspect Host (though this is mostly because Warp Spiders were the real MVP for Eldar) and the Fenrisian Pack. By contrast, the pseudo-Unbound of 8th means the moment one unit is better than the rest, guess what gets spammed without restriction?

As for alphastrikes/nullhammer in 8th, all you really need to do is get a single Imperial Bastion, and load it down with as many solo Astropaths as you want. Because each astropath is one unit, you can reserve something else for each one you bring, and because they're all going in the Bastion, it counts as "one drop", and so you're practically guaranteed to go first. (Ynnari could do something similar with solo Llhameans or so if you want).

>>54156075
Gladius, Skyhammer, OSC, War Convocation and Unending Host also demolished basically everything that wasn't an optimized tournament list.

>>54156075
Competitive 40k is cancer. I'm sorry it just is. I'm putting this up front because if you are a competitive 40k player then I just want to be up front about it because we're never going to agree in that case.

>Flyers
Mainly just in that if you didn't bring very specific tools to counter them you either got destroyed by them or just destroyed them yourself. There's no real tactics there, just rock paper scissors. Now everyone just suffers a -1 to hit, and dedicated AAA gets a +1, meaning there's a point to AAA but if you don't have any you're not immediately fucked.

>Terrain being half movement
I actually agree with this, I think that would be a good addition as well.

>Pyskers
Invisibility alone just proves that 8th's pysker rules are better than 7th, if only for that. I however will say that a main reason 7th's psychic bullshit was so bad was the hilariously dumb IC rules that allowed for such insane death stars in the first place. Maybe it's just me but while there are only a few psychic powers for each army, they seem to be much more tactical in use except for random buff stats.

>1st 8e tournament winning army was flyerspam
Congrats, the first tournament not even a month into a completely new edition won on a gimmick, color me surprised. You act shocked that people who are still coming to grips with their own codex will be blindsided by others. If it consistently crushes tournaments 4 months from now you'll have a point but it is way too damn early to be calling shit like that.

>There are 3 notable problem formations in 7th
The number is way higher than that and you know it. The sheer amount of formations that gave you free shit, extra rules, or other such shenanigans were becoming depressingly common.

>alphastrike bastion
all of those pyskers have an 18" range that can only target the closest unit and only go off on a 5+, that's hardly broken, especially since all your deepstrike stuff still "deploys".

>>54154663
>(especially since you're only allowed 1 'eavy weapon per 10 boyz in the mob now)
That was always the case
>(not sure if you can lump 'em in the same trukk or not[probably not] since unless I'm mistaken HQs don't have bodyguard's anymore)
You can
>>Big Gunz are useful again
Not as useful as KMK mek gunz
>>For Fast Attack, take Deffkoptas over Warbikers, but if you can field both, do it.
What kind of advice is this? Why would you prioritize one over the other but also get both? Neither's very good in any case

>>54156338
>won on a gimmick
It isnt a gimmick every single competitive 8th list is copy/paste of the same unit or unit block over and over as it is the most efficient way to run any army now

>>54155192
7e would've been more balanced if they stuck with the power level of the first few codexes, but the new CEO had to impress his board so codexes went into maximum power creep from Necrons and onward

I just want to complain that Haywire weapons have become COMPLETELY worthless in 8th. Yeah, they were maybe too good before, but right now a, say, Arc Rifle puts out half as many wounds on a transport as it did hull points before, which considering that most vehicles have triple or quadruple the hit points means that you want to be bringing 10x the number of haywire you did before to do the same damage.

There's rebalancing, and then there's just turning things into total shit. Riptides were broken in 7th but increasing their price to 1500 points would just be retarded.

>>54156245
War Convo by itself was mid-upper. People quit taking it as seriously for tournament play after GW FAQ'd against starting in BB transports, and Flesh Tearers were no longer Space Uber.

OSC was good, but not *that* good. For the cost of the Stealth Suits, it was easier to just buy another Ghostkeel. Of course, for the same cost as that many Ghostkeels...you were almost halfway to a Riptide Wing. Funny how that one goes, huh?

Gladius was the best powergame formation, simply because "Free Razorbacks" and universal Obsec were so incredibly good. You had a formation that was all-bonus, with no drawback/no tax.

For every breaker formation like this though, there were far more "what the fuck is this shit" formations that just simply weren't workable. Look at what a piece of shit Wrath of Magnus was for example. Likewise, I don't think I ever saw anyone take a Daemonkin formation that wasn't a Gorepack. The Ork Decurion was very phoned-in, and I heard a lot of complaints that Blood Angels got hosed because they got a gimpier Battle Demi-Company that replaced Obsec with Red Thirst...when the BA Decurion's main bonus was Red Thirst. Likewise, every Marine army had some form of "techpriest + tanks" formation with dreadfully uninspiring bonuses. (The CSM one in particular was...the vehicles get a 6+ Invulnerable. Wheeee)

Don't get me wrong, GW can't into balance one way or another. However, most formations in 7th at least had "some" theme behind their copypaste.

>>54156338
I'm...in the middle. Like, I lean more "competitive" (because this *is* a Wargame), but I'm not going to be a dick about it, and I honestly don't have the stamina for playing so many 40k games in a row. Let's be honest, there's more to whether a gamer is That Guy besides the list they bring. I'm a fan of the "switching phases" test. Like, if you forget to move a unit before going to the next phase, This Guy would go "hey, weren't you going to move X", That Guy would go "hehehehe."

I'm the guy that posted >>54151603 btw. Truth be told, this is more from a "fluff" angle than anything resembling competitive play, but I played Wurrza in Deffwotch, so I've been super-ingrained on the idea that Psychic powers should be a calculated risk, or that Pushing = lots of power, but you're going to blow up. I like the idea that more Warp Charge = More Power + More Perils. 8e made the system less immersive, yet it still isn't balanced enough to feel like it's worth it.

As for Flyers, I played a Chaos Warband since Traitor's Hate, and before that I ran MSU Rhinos with a Gorepack; I skipped on 6th, so I never bothered with Heldrakes, and I didn't get a Chaos Knight. I always preferred focusing on the actual SM part of Chaos Space Marines, despite "the meta" saying "hurpdurp, Typhus Zombies and Drakes" or "hurpdurp, Gatling Knight" or so. I just generally *ignored* flyers, and went straight to capping objectives, using some solo Obliterators for "troubleshooting"/secondary assault support.

7e tournaments had more variance than one gives credit for. 8e tournaments are showing a pattern of "spam A, vs Spam B vs Spam C". Granted, there's also some "new edition syndrome" and some armies have been illegal, but I'm really skeptical about claims by Reece and co (personally, I always viewed Reece as a fuckwit ever since he boasted in 5e that he was "undefeated" with Footdar) that people will gravitate away from spam so they're not playing rock-paper-scissors.

>>54152053
In 8th ed I've seen people just put down a heap of Ork Boyz or gaunts because the positioning doesn't matter anymore and it's too much time to set them up individually.

>>54157605
Which makes for faster game. Positions start to matter for casualty removals. I've broken combat chains by getting things killed in the ways I wanted it and have seen tau players flub due to poor casualty assignments.

>>54156338
>turning a clearly non-competitive thing into a competition is cancer

No shit. It's no different from competitive Smash Brothers, competitive sex, or competitive shoe tying. The only bad part is 8E seems to have legitimized the concept.

>>54153131
Its all about perspective.
If you play x wing it is compared to that.
If you play a thousand hour war game campaign in North Africa its not.
This is where the disagreement comes from. Strop trying to deflect from the fact some people feel the game isn't as complex by implying there are more complicated games than 40k, its irrelevant.

>>54160180
Did anyone actually play Campaign for North Africa seriously though rather than for "lol, le pasta" meme?

>>54160269
No idea, its a meme game from what I know, but I assume some people have.

>>54155477
This nigga right here. I can actually get through multiple games during my weekly meet up. I can take weird or silly lists and not get stomped turn one. 8th has been the best waac fag repellent. I had one of my friends cry like a bitch when he couldnt kill my leman turn one with three las cannons.

>>54162740
I've had the opposite experience as Orks, but I've mainly played against Necrons. All my non-'cron games have been good. Mainly playing at 500pts against blobs of warriors buffed by characters.

>>54160564
Here it's seen as a way to cure a hardcore simulationist of the delusion that more simulation is always better. If they enjoy it, they're beyond saving.

>>54155192
I'm with you in this.
I'll be playing some 8th but I'm getting ready to set into a bigass campaign with a bunch of my friends and we are going to be using some heavily modified 7th style rules (including borrowing some that we think are neat from 8th) only because we feel it has more potential narrative and tactically speaking. We've gone through and corrected what we thought were some glaring issues and have compiled a seven page book of our own rules and will probably stick with those.
Some changes:
>glancing does not remove HP, rolls on damage table, unmodified by AP; against buildings non-AP - glances reduce AV on that facing by 1
>units can charge after running
>deepstrike and transports can make disordered charges but only on 1d6 distance
>only AP1 and - modify vehicle damage
>superheavy gets a modified damage table
>MC/GC halve movement, WS, BS, and attacks at half wounds
>Skyfire has -1BS against ground targets to make them more useful and not a waste if there are no flyers
>most armies have a unit with "Grenadiers" rule allowing them to use multiple grenades in assault (Demo Vets, ork tankbustas, etc.)
>pinning back for sniper, barrage, -1Ld for Ordnance barrage, stacking -1Ld penalty for multiple sniper wounds after first
>no armor save for dangerous terrain
>flakk universal for MLs
>one formation per CAD
>various points and mechanical adjustments per codex
Some stuff we decided to jack from 8th:
>full split fire for everyone
>-1BS on moving HW
>Necron reanimation protocols
Possibly some more if we like it

File: concern.jpg (31KB, 300x300px) Image search: [Google]

31KB, 300x300px

>>54139580
Hey everyone look its 90s nick.

He doesnt like new things. He things that the most perfect and flawless game is the one that went just before the one that just came out.

>>54165095
Look at this redditor who loves changes by default

>>54145237
The Boltgun in the 40k RPG fires 4 bolts in full auto.

>>54165057
One formation per CAD is a bit harsh. Some armies get more out of formations than CADs. Ironically, Eldar are better in a CAD than not, at least without the FW Pale Court. I like the DS/Transport bit, though why not just make it another -2 to charge distance for simplicity's sake?

Some thoughts:
>Give every vehicle +2 HP.
>Vehicle damage mods start at AP 3. However, Vehicle Destroyed - Explodes is simply "extra D3 wounds", with the explosion only happening if it results in the last HP being removed.
>Replace Instant Death with "extra D3 wounds".
>D is simply "D3 wounds/HP. -2 penalty to Invulnerable Saves". Remove Deathblow.
>An Invulnerable Save cannot be "improved" to better than 3++. You can only get 2++ from rules that explicitly allow it.
>May choose a Warlord Trait. If you can "reroll" your Warlord Trait, you get a 2nd trait.
>Dark Angels are Allies of Convenience with the rest of the Imperium.

I would enjoy looking at any mechanical adjustments you're making too. Maybe make a "40k 7.5" thread?

>>54165497
will try out the +2 hp
ID we already modified to that pretty similar on Destroyer as well. Never had issues with invuls but then again I play with friends who are narritive focused. Like I said, those were just some changes we made.
We are regularly adjusting things that we feel are out of wack.