Would advancement of gun technology in a fantasy setting led

depends on the setting

it would take more than just matchlocks to take over a country
for a long time the deadliest weapon to use against natives were disease rather than early firearms

the reason redcoats were deadly was their endless drilling and discipline with their guns, rather than the gun itself, simply having levies with guns will not exterminate anyone

Been waiting for a guns thread

How do we make guns a symbol of heroism on par with a sword?

>>54115360
Depends how bestial they are, but it seems unlikely.

They might become a slave race.

>>54115360

I would predict a rise in magic-use among monster-races.

>>54115439
By attaching a sword onto your gun.

Advancement in weapons tech would make it easier for your average joe to use it. A village completely armed with crossbows or rifles will do a lot more damage than trying to use bows. Whether or not they can actually hit a cheetah-man charging is another story, but the volume of fire would try to make up for the lack of accuracy.

No?

Using either civilizations or animals as models, it isn't necessary to have guns to cause extinctions nor is having guns going to automatically result in extinctions.

100 million sharks get killed by humans every year, 73 mil solely for fucking soup, and none of that uses or requires guns. If the races with guns have sufficient edge over the ones without, the guns just affect how it happens and how fast, not whether it occurs.

>>54115439
You can't. Guns are an equalizer. Hand a fishwife a sword and she'll get wrecked by the evil knight attacking her village every time- only someone with martial skill could prevail. Hand her a gun to defend her home from an evil gunman and she's got noticeably better odds.

>>54115488
Something something made all men tall

>>54115439
By making more monsters bullet proof

And/or the gun itself requires intensive training to use for some reason. Like the ignition is actually powered by your fucking Chi or something.

...actually that might be cool, I always liked the idea of chakra weapons.

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>>54115360
Sure, but what of the bestial races who *can* produce them?

>>54115360
When you say incapable, do you mean they lack the means to produce them or simply are unable to use them? If the other races can still use them, then I would assume an arms dealer would emerge to sell guns to these other races.

>>54115360
Well injuns and africans survived. Its a matter on how much it would be used on the beast races.

I doubt most monsters would have even survived something like the Roman Empire used to genocide any bothersome violent tribe without remorse.

Guns are pointless in a world of magic.
Obviously a modern army would beat a fantasy army.
But a fantasy world would never progress into gun technology.
Economics 101, no demand.

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The point of guns is that they are cheap to made, any mercenary can use them. Bows requires complex and hard training that last many years. It's not a matter of precision, it's a matter of being strong enough to pierce armour with your arrows. Cannons, would appear long before guns (making obsolete any catapults etc), though.

>>54115439
By attaching a myth to the weapon

See the idea of the western gunslinger

>>54116132
Guns began with canons.
If a hundred mages can cause a rain storm of meteors. Nobody would have a reason to mass produce canons, or evolve them into guns.

>>54116163
Is there a reason why cannons MUST come before guns?
Seems like people are making the mistake that technological advancement is a video game with arbitrary prerequisites.

>>54116215
>Is there a reason why cannons MUST come before guns?
Because large and crude is easier to make than small and refined?

>>54116215
Really? You're asking this question?

>>54116215
its relatively easy to make a tube that launches iron balls out the other end

its harder to make it fit in someones hand while still being practical

its seems to be natural for things to start huge and get smaller, rather than the other way around

>>54116086
>injuns and africans survived

By being enslaved and colonized.

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>>54116132

Now this is autism.

If anything fantasy setting would get guns faster since their alchemy is real and they would get exploding powders much faster.

There is literally nothing stopping mages from making magic guns and bullets. If anything break action guns could be the best magic delivery system you can imagine.

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>>54116163

There are three main reasons why muskets completely replaced other ranged weapons.

1. Ammo is incredibly easy to make and store. People often forget it's hard and expensive to make good arrows and they are large.

2. They are very easy to maintain. Much easier than bows and crossbows.

3. They counter armor. And at short range they are almost a guaranteed fast kill.

There is also the fact that a bayonet turns them into short spears.

There's no point to armour or bows. Water magic would have fucked both.

>>54115439
Have the making of a gun or magi-gun be an artform honed for generations of a family line. Each house has their own style of gun as a result, each shooter responsible not only for upkeep but the smithing of the gun itself.
Guns as a result become almost a holy thing, meaning different things to each and every wielder while also potentially being wildly unique in style and function. This also means that guns themselves or at least the good ones aren't and will not for cultural reasons become ubiquitous in the world (pcs, or villains may with to change this, boom instant main campaign plot hook).
Powder of the black or alchemical variety could also differ house to house. Whenever I run powder fantasy I always make sure people know my fire powder isn't the mundane earth stuff. Pure powdered classical greek fire and earth, the orangish powder glows softly like a flickering candle in darkness, and becomes a dull grey if wet or expired through age.

>>54116330
They were slaving each other before and ended better than if they were left on their own, cause their slave labor went to something useful, minuscule as it was. At least before they fucked shit up, more so the Africans.

>>54115439
You can because the gun is the pussy bitch weapon. Anyone can pull a tiny lever and hold a stick.
Takes a heroic mother fucker to charge a demon with what is basically a sharpened metal rod.

>>54115439
Play in a wild west setting instead of a fantasy setting.

You know I'm right.

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>>54115439
By doing pic related

>>54116670
I don't have nearly as much exposure to wild west settings as I do to fantasy.
What are the staples of the genre like how fantasy has Tolkien?

>>54116705
GURPS Old West, like many GURPS supplements, is a pretty good overview of the genre. Other than that, binge-watching John Wayne or Clint Eastwood westerns should give you a pretty good idea.

>>54116705
Mysterious lone gunmen with a code of morals helping out impoverished settler towns.

>>54116697
>whitewashing the gunslinger
That's racist you shitlord

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>>54116832
>Every black guy is a violent gunslinger
That's even more racist, you double shitlord

>>54116832
Considerign he was describved as Clit Eastwood, I think you missed the color that's being washed.

I like Ildriss, but they ruined a huge set of important interactions by making him black. Worse, Roland is exactly the kind of man they want white men to be: he judges only by action, he sees the potential good and strengths and weaknesses in everyone, and he is colorblind and unable to see handicaps otherwise.

They literally turned the exemplar of everything they want white men to be like into a black guy for the sake of 'progressive film'.

>>54116858
>I like Ildriss, but they ruined a huge set of important interactions by making him black

What exactly

>>54116858
>se, Roland is exactly the kind of man they want white men to be: he judges only by action, he sees the potential good and strengths and weaknesses in everyone, and he is colorblind and unable to see handicaps otherwise.

...wat?

>>54116858

>Clit Eastwood

Hehehehehhehehehehheh

>>54116548

How the shit is this related to the thread /pol/-kun?

>>54116697
>See my brother has some THICC "The Dark Tower" book
>See it talked about, tired of generic fantasy, lets do this shit
>It's actually the graphic novel version by Marvel

Is it worth reading the graphic novel version first, or should I find the original novel and read that first?

>>54116889
Roland's interactions with Susannah/Detta are colored (ha ha) by the fact that she is a justifiably racist bitch. She refers to him as a 'honky mafah' on several occasions, rather than 'Unca Tom'. Even after she's healed, Detta doesn't trust him and susannah can become very snide if she thinks Roland is acting on preconceptions based on her color or handicap....which he never does. He respects her, and sees Detta for the dangerous, cunning woman she is, legless and black though she may be, and is very aware his underestimation of her nearly gets he and Eddie Dean (who is of Hispanic descent mind you) killed.

Roland doesn't see color, he doesn't care about handidcaps. He see the potential gunslinger in a strung out heroin addict and a legless woman, rather than presuming they're an addict who can't get better or a handicapped woman who can't walk. He doesn't care about color, race or creed; he deals in lead, and sees what is really there, not the surfaces that everyone - such as the film's producers - gets distracted by.

>>54116928
The graphic novels tell the story of a young Roland, and have little to do with the books otherwise. They're pretty well done though..

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>>54115360
>guns are racist and genocidal

>>54116086
>injuns survived
Hahahahahaha

>>54116965
>Roland's interactions with Susannah/Detta are colored (ha ha) by the fact that she is a justifiably racist bitch. She refers to him as a 'honky mafah' on several occasions, rather than 'Unca Tom'.

So why can't she refer to him as Unca tom or be a white woman who calls him nigger in the movie

>>54117005
Black is inferior to white, so it would make sense for a white woman to think a black man would be underestimating her because of her skin color
They could make it about her gender though

>>54117035
>Wouldn't* make sense

>>54117035
>Black is inferior to white, so it would make sense for a white woman to think a black man would be underestimating her because of her skin color
... ???

>>54117005
Because white women in the 1960's weren't put in jail cells and abused by white racists assholes in the south, anon. That's the point, the interactions are based on characterization built on their personal histories, and those histories are based in timelines. You want to rewrite the storuy from whole cloth, that's fine, but don't bother pretending that the characters can even be remotely similar to the ones in the book if you want to blackwash the main character and try and whitewash the others.

Because what they did is remove an example of the kind of white man they want every white man to be and completely render pointless a prime example of a strong, powerful handicapped black woman.

Way to miss their own fucking points.

What is the difference between guns and magic?

>>54117082
>Detta doesn't trust him and susannah can become very snide if she thinks Roland is acting on preconceptions based on her color or handicap....which he never does.
This interaction wouldn't make sense if she were white and he were black

>>54117101
Physics and lack thereof, respectively.

>>54117035
can you people go back to /pol/ for race discussions
But anyways i don't think that intoduction of gun will drive them to extinction.Make them less of a threat, most likely but not driving them to complete extincion

>>54117101
Normal people can use a gun

>>54117101
Guns are supposedly easier to use and have a more limited use.

Most "magical" settings don't actually do this. Magic is common, widespread, and basically technology by any other name.

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>>54117097
>>54117108
>race relation shit
>stephen king

They would just steal/trade for the guns

>>54117141

Most setting with widespread magic also don't make any sense.

Note that it took a long time for the bayonet to be invented, a couple of centuries to be precise. Until then, it was all pike & shot.

>>54115439
Since when are they not?

>>54115360
Not necessarily. They would likely run the risk of getting marginalized, but remember that just because you can't produce them doesn't mean you can't buy them. So then you just end up with natives that had enough wealth to outfit themselves with firearms rising to prominence while other, poorer tribes are pushed to the fringes.

Also, fantasy. An eight foot tall orc using a longbow that hurls armor-piercing javelins is still relevant as hell, even if firearms become prevalent.

I run a Fantasy Western, and while having rifles and shotguns sure is useful, when you're dealing with magic and fantasy races, it's by no means some sort of silver bullet for colonization.

>>54115439
Who's to say they aren't? The Western Gunslinger, Richard Sharpe. Hell, I'd place Sharpe's Regiment right up there with the Knights of the Round Table as far as heroic bands go.

>>54116371
>Muskets counter armor
Please, stop this stale meme. Crossbows are better at punching through armor than early firearms.

>>54117496
You do realize that by the time things start being called muskets they're no longer "early firearms" right? We're talking centuries here.

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>>54116858
>Considerign he was describved as Clit Eastwood, I think you missed the color that's being washed.

Spoilers for newfags who won't get this:

>First time around (that we get to see): The Gunslinger (1st edition). Roland lost the Horn of Deschain fleeing the battle that broke Mid-World. Astrological signs are mentioned. The order of Gunslingers is approximately 600 years old. Roland is described as looking "half Cherokee, half Amish".
>Second/third time around: The Drawing of the Three-The Wastelands/The Gunslinger (2003 edition). No astrological signs, now it's the totems of the Beams. Roland is described as looking sort of like Clint Eastwood. Later on, Roland is described as looking "exactly like Stephen King".
>Fourth time around: Events at the end of The Dark Tower (book VII). Roland now has the Horn of Deschain as he never dropped it during the battle. Oy is now a dog instead of a bumbler.
>?????? time around: the movie. Roland is now a black guy. The order of Gunslingers is "thousands of generations" old. Jake and Odetta are not drawn into Mid-World.
>?????? time around minus a few decades: the TV series.

tl;dr if you're really upset then pic related but every time the cycle repeats some things are different than the last time around.

>>54117507
And you do realize that plate armor as DnD knows it only rose to prominence in the era of pike and shot where muskets were commonplace? Specifically because of the protection it gave against muskets and other weapons.

>>54117537
We ain't talking bout d&d frendo. Hell if anything its one of the worst handlings of firearms in the rules various editions have for them (pushed back into a corner somewhere where few people will see them of course).

And wrong again buddy. Harquebus were commonplace. The specialized heavy ARMOUR PIERCING variety of which became known as the musket in reference the special troops which wielded them.

>>54117560
Oh, so I'm talking to a retard. Got it. Keep living in ignorance.

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>>54115439

This is how you make guns heroic:

https://youtu.be/CTJlmlZWWHA?t=4m19s

>>54117570
Should I follow your lead then?

I always find it sort of weird that you do get to see the Gunslinger turned into a heroic figure, yet the crossbow fulfilled largely the same role -- easy to use, great against armor, even banned by the Pope for fucking up the balance of power between landed elite and commoners -- yet you rarely ever see the crossbow as the same sort of mythic weapon like the revolver or rifle. I suppose the lack of something akin to the Western helped with that, but I still find it amusing the the closest thing to the Gunslinger for the crossbow -- the Genoese crossbowmen -- are basically just remembered as hired thugs and mooks to get mowed down by English bowmen at Crecy thanks to weather conditions.

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>>54115439
Victorian big game hunters venturing into the wild to destroy monsters.

>>54116670
Do you know the concept of the Knight-Errant?Yes? Then you know the concept of the gunslinger of Westerns and the basic idea of a western, to the fucking tee.

>>54117496

Muskets can penetrate armour. You are thinking of Arquebuses. They co-existed more or less for a long time. As time when one, centuries, muskets improved and replaced arquebuses completely while armour lost the arm's race in a century or two.

>>54117717
Meant for>>54116705
not sure how I fucked up that reply.

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>>54117611
The gunslinger gets multi-shot weapons. Standing around reloading doesn't make for very action-filled, heroic scenes.

>even banned by the Pope for fucking up the balance of power between landed elite and commoners

Well, he did ban the use of crossbows against Christians, that much is true. He also banned the use of slings and bows. In fact the crossbow isn't really mentioned specifically, while the sling and bow is, it seems to have been included on assumption mostly.

That'd it'd be because of any threat to the power structures of the time is by this obvious myth and bullshit, since these power structures emerged in a setting where we already have slings and bows, so if it was threatened by such it'd never come into being to begin with.

Instead it seems people shot at each other as a game, betting on who could hit who, and this is what the church objected to.

Canon 29: http://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/lateran2.asp

>>54115360
If they can pull the trigger they'll get guns because some fucking merchant is gonna sell them guns.

>>54117097
From what I understood of the whole thing Idris Elba was chosen, not because he's black, but because he is a phenomenal actor, and I'm fairly certain Stephen King had nothing to do with the decision.

Every fucking point you're making though, is moot, because this shit is supposedly set AFTER the events of the novels as they occurred in an alternate multiverse to the books. So, this version of Roland is black and the one you know and love is still there exactly the same, in the Novel multiiverse.

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>>54117726
Well...

In the period of co-existance of musket and arquebus the former was a much larger weapon. IIRC generally served by a crew of two even.

But by the time the musket took over it had already shrunk somewhat, and it then rapidly shrank even more, until it became a weapon similar to the arquebus. So the majority of muskets are quite akin to the arquebus, and modern testing (Hall, Weapons and Warfare in Renaissance Europe) shows that the difference between them in terminal ballistics is little to none, completely overshadowed by the differences from one specific gun to another.

>>54116858
>They literally turned the exemplar of everything they want white men to be...
(((They))) want white men to be dead and forgotten as even history is rewritten to replace them with "minorities".

>>54117582
>Wick
>heroic
The man is just a solo/street samurai/gunzerker with ptsd

>>54116928
Different stories. The novels tell the story of Roland as a grown man, with the exception of the fourth. I would definitely recommend the novels to you though.

>>54116858
That's what they want everyone to be, they just run on the assumption white men are innately evil and incapable of that ideal

It is curious how early firearms were more precise than Napoleonic ones (barring jaërs and riflemen). This is mostly because in an effort to speed up the reloading, they sacrificed precision by making the ballet significantly smaller than the barrel. It's a quantity > quality thing.

>>54117860
>>54117582
John Wick is a villain through and through, a sympathetic and certainly principled villain but he is a villain or, at best, an anti-villain or a very close to the edge anti-hero.

I think he was given temporary hero status thanks to the murder of his dog and destruction of his house and now the revocation of his "assassins license" will further extend it, but if, and when, he wins he'll be a straight-up villain again.

Does anybody have any plausible sounding firearm concepts for fantasy that deviate from historical firearms?

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>>54117773
Remember, no refunds!

>>54115360
It hasnt in real life.

>>54117937

Magic bullets!

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>>54117937

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>>54117937
I've been trying to figure out a way to have specialized wands fill the role without it being too similar to either

There's also caster guns from outlaw star. Still pretty gunnish, but cool nonetheless

>>54115360

Note that many natives adopted muskets right away. It was not until the machinegun that you could slaughter thousands of natives with or without guns.

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>>54117937
Not in D&D.
If you really went Fantasy guns, man carried small artillery would suddenly be a thing.
So would variants of 1000x cape Derringers.

>>54117937
>rifle barrel magic staves
>rather than bullets (or mana crystals) fresh blood or an ambient magic field is needed
>the trigger isn't a pull of the finger but a ritual tic or a mental command in a specific mindspace
>instead of firing a bullet or fireball you shoot an intimidation or trip-and-drop-all-your-shit spell

>>54117937
gunpowder can be exploded with the use of magical talents. while this does not do much to effect the use of small arms, due to the relatively low amount of powder involved, it makes the use of canon untenable, as the destruction of a powder magazine can wipe out a surrounding company or two

>>54118207
That's why airguns would be the gun of vaguely renaiisant fantasy land.
Any elf, dwarf or gnome worth a dime could manufacture it's components, bullets are easy to make, it's easy to maintain and can't be interfered with by a simple fireball or rain spell.

>>54117537
You do realise that because of muskets, there was basically little to no advantage in wearing armor at all, hence why most armies cut costs and sent their forces in wearing nothing but colored wool and cloth.

>>54116924
I was replying to the fucker. Don't butt in, mongoloid.

>>54118207

What's stopping wizards with water magic to ruin armour, crossbows, and bows too? What's stops wizards from shielding gunpowder?

>>54118304
>replies with shit, ends with "they were better for it", as though being culturally obliterated, if not wiped out, is "better"

>>54115439
You can't. Read "The Western Way of War" to know more.

It talks about why we think war is retarded and gay nowadays, when back in the day (greek days), it was a sport.

>>54118311
That's why you hire stealth wizards to sneakily blow up the gunpowder. And anti-stealth wizards to hunt those stealth wizards. And anti-anti-stealth wizards to protect your stealth wizards. Eventually the battlefield will just be wizards attempting to blow gunpowder caches up, but no soldiers because they spent all the money on wizards.

>>54118397
>soldiers are cheap
>wizards are expensive

How about a middling-expense caste of anti-wizard assassins with a little magic?

>>54118289
Only on the army scale, and only once muskets were widespread. Individually, heavier cuirasses could still turn pistol/musketballs, and this meta existed for centuries.

>>54118397
Honestly I think a lot of military wizards would be low-grade enchanters that just churned out cheap, simple, enchanted objects and weapons that would be supplied to soldiers. There would also probably be a group of specialized intelligence wizards to gather information and higher-grade enchanters that provided better enchanted equipment to special forces. The very powerful wizards would be akin to artillery.

>>54117611
You've got to look at the cultures those weapons lived in. Firearms were highly regarded as a great equalizer in America because America was a democracy that put a great deal of moral and philosophic value on the idea of all men being equal. The crossbow had similar equalizing powers in European history, but the European nations of the time were built on explicit differences between the classes. People weren't equal and that was the way things were supposed to be. Equalization was as much an attack on the social order itself as it was on any knight. Instead, you've got that same reverence applied to swords, which were a symbol of the rights of the noble classes to bear arms as well the obligations that came with that duty.

If you want guns to be heroic, you first need a culture whose heroic values can be represented by a gun.

>>54117937
Goblins in a setting I run use what are basically thick-walled cartridges that clamp into a hammer-trigger mechanisms. Its basically a musket with a disposable, preloaded barrel assembly. They ride around on deafened hogs firing off random loads at people. They're the only ones with the mastery of alchemy required for gunpowder that works in conditions with even slight humidity.

>>54116132
>magic is too rare to focus your military doctrine around it
>magicians are cunts who refuse to serve as artillery
Or both. Now you can have historically feasible guns. Also
>hire a mage
>mage dies in battle
>no more magic
but
>make a gun
>train a peasant to use it
>peasant dies in battle
>take the gun, give it to another peasant

>>54119038
This, and also it takes years or even decades and countless material wealth to train a mage to cast even a 1st-level spell. You can train a conscript to load and fire a gun in a couple of weeks for a pittance.

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>>54117937

It takes longer to defeat armour because of magically enchanted armour and Mithril. At the same time, it is mostly concentrated on mounted cavalry.

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>>54115439
Make the gun special (eg. A revolver from a known duelist, a rifle from a huge assassin, weapon used to kill "x", etc), give the guna special mechanical or magical quirk (eg mechanical, a revolver that fires .50 bullets but you need to reload each time it fires, or gun is attached to a sword like pic related; eg magical, the gun only fires if you draw your own blood, and the more blood, the strongest and more accurate it gets).
Basically, being heroic is about overcoming odds. Guns are strong equalizers, making them very unfitting for heroes. So, the way to make a gun special and the one using it a hero, you need to bend the setting and the gun in a way that it becomes almost a disadvantage to use it.

>>54117611
crossbows never managed to replace swords or bows. by time you have the wild west gunslinger, guns were the only game in town, there was nothing else to romanticise.

>>54115360
Wouldn't go as far as extinction, but definitely a shift in power. A 4ft tall Orc can be scary when wielding an axe, but they will probably look way smaller from a few meters away from the ironsight of a firearm.

>>54115439
Give them to Dragoons and the cavalry

>>54117496
Are we comparing field weapons to field weapons here, or do you think soldiers used siege crossbows in formations or something.

>>54115417
>the reason redcoats were deadly was that they hired actually competent armies like the Hessians to fight their wars for them while the pussy-bitch Navy stayed the hell away from actual fighting
ftfy

>>54115360
The beast races would enslave each other and sell the slaves for their own guns. This will lead to a viscous cycle in which those with guns can easily enslave those without and get more guns.

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>>54115439

>>54116173
Price. Maybe canons are far more reliable and cheaper than their magic colleagues.

It all depends on the setting though. Does the magic has a price ? If yes, how much ? Can any nation use it at will ?

Because if we stay on this level of thought, there are no reason why sword exist either. Why aren't the magocrates handling anything war-related if they are so better at this ?

>>54118248
>easy to maintain
Yeah sure, it's not like I'm gonna accidentally dent this masterwork air canister by dropping the rifle right? Whoops, it's leaking air now, let me uh, swap it with a spare. Oh, I didn't top it off properly because it's a bitch to do.

Air rifles are neat but hardly reliable for battlefield conditions, and that's ignoring that the strength dips with repeated shots. Cool hunting weapons but there's a reason why nobody adopted it after the Austrians.

>>54119470
>>54116173
Mages run out of spell slots/mana, and good mages are rare. As long as you have powder and shot those 12-pounders will still fire.

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>>54119449
> filename

>>54119672
Hey man, I got that image when looking for North Vietnamese propaganda and I'm a dumb americfat.

>>54119148
>Basically, being heroic is about overcoming odds. Guns are strong equalizers, making them very unfitting for heroes. So, the way to make a gun special and the one using it a hero, you need to bend the setting and the gun in a way that it becomes almost a disadvantage to use it.
If you're building the setting around this assumption, why not beef up the enemies to the point where ordinary arms are insufficient? Like you don't want to fight Vampires that have inhuman strength and speed in close quarters, so stand back and put the silver in them at range.

>>54119545
> As long as you have powder and shot those 12-pounders will still fire.

I'm >>54119470

Yes but what happen if you don't ? I mean ammunition is for the gun what spellslot/mana points are for caster ;
Being the devil's advocate, I'd say there is more chances for a wizard blowing up the ammunition depot than for the infantry man or the twelve pounder to deplete the manapoints/spellslot

>>54119536
>Can't take care of a cannister
>Expects to take better care of powder
Bet you can't even wipe your ass correctly.

>>54119695
Because in this case, the gun is just an equalizer. The enemy is so strong that, if it wasn't for the gun, there would be no chance at all.You can make the character heroic but the gun won't be playing a part in it.
It's not easy to make the use of the gun heroic as the sword. Swords are way more personal, while guns can easily feel either cheap or just a common tool.

>>54119724
>I mean ammunition is for the gun what spellslot/mana points are for caster
A caster's spell slots are drawn from himself. In D&D 5e at least, it doesn't matter what your stats are, a caster at a certain level has a certain number of spell slots (i.e. mana capacity). You can't increase this for each individual any way. The only thing you can do is train a new wizard to the adequate level. That's expensive and a slow, potentially dangerous process if the PC leveling process is any indication.

Meanwhile, powder is cheap to manufacture, so are guns to cast, and it takes much less training to get an experienced gun crew running than cannon. While it may take decades to get a wizard up to par to know the basics needed for combat (Counterspell, dispel magic, etc.), it'll take a month at most to get multiple cannons and crews to equip them.

> I'd say there is more chances for a wizard blowing up the ammunition depot than for the infantry man or the twelve pounder to deplete the manapoints/spellslot
This assumes the side with the cannons doesn't have mages with the usual counters.
The thing is that yes, a wizard can effortlessly block a barrage with a 3rd or 4th level spell - but he has to do so, and they are using a spell that they're not going to get back. The gun battery only needs to reload. As long as allied mages can keep the enemy mage's counterattack at bay with their own counterspell/dispel magics, they're going to be using half as many spell slots in the same time, because the mages engaged with the artillery need to spend spell slots to counter the barrage, and also to launch attacks back, while the mages defending the battery only need to defend the battery from spells. When the average 6th level wizard can only cast a 3rd level spell 3 times, that's a big deal, especially if you're out of counterspell and the enemy mages still have theirs.

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>>54119545
I think cannons have a tendency to overheat if you run them too hard. Such could both make reloading very exciting, and weaken the structural integrity of the barrel with disastrous results. The copper-cored leather cannons Gustav II Adolf experimented with were at least abandoned due to overheating issues.

>>54119724
>>54119943
Ultimately in a world where magic (and spells like counterspell/dispel magic) are a normal part of warfare, war will be all about endurance; tricking your enemy into expending all their counterspells, or wasting their most powerful attacks on your counterspells, or of tricking them into being unable to counter your strongest attacks.

In that case artillery as cheap spell scrolls; sure, you're not as versatile as an enemy wizard, but as long as you're using them the enemy wizard is going to have to use spells to defend yourself against them, and you don't. That means when you start using your spell slots, the enemy will not have the spell slots to defend against them. And if you've used up all your spell slots as well, you still have artillery and they do not.

>>54119943
I quite like this discussion. It make me think.

Let's try to be the devil's advocate again... mmh...

No, I don't find any problems ; it seems adjusted for a D&D setting, and without resorting to "depends on the setting" it's rather smooth.
It include the wizard in the military at something else than just heavy mobile artillery...
I quite like it and I'll suggest it to my GM, thanks !

>>54119934
Depends on how you handle it. You can easily romanticize gunmen in that situation. Master sharpshooters wielding elegant master crafted revolvers and rifles that fire specialized wooden bullets containing garlic and holy water against brute monsters of the night that can literally tear humans apart if they just manage to close the distance. Have there be stories and rumors going around about them, like how they're master sharpshooters who could clip the wings off a fly at a hundred paces. Have the guns be a big focus, like have their emblem be crossed long barreled revolvers over a cross or something.

>>54120012
This is true, even World War II Naval Gun Barrels had only a limited amount of uses (i.e. the The USS Iowa's 16-inch gun barrels can only take 290-350 rounds). But it's still probably going to be firing way longer than a wizard will be casting.

>>54115360
Not if they are tougher than bears. The gun couldnt deal with bears


Or emus.

>>54115360
>led
>lead
Is this the latest retardation? I've been seeing this around a lot lately.

>>54117496
Considering that one bush ranger made an armor that literally made him invincible against revolver shots 10m away, no fuck you retard.

>>54115360
Extinction depends on how advanced we're talking. Early weapons wouldn't. Warhammer Fantasy is a good example. They wouldn't exterminate enemies without guns but they'd be a big difference. A handgun can take down a charging knight or rampaging giant far more easily than a sword or spear. Orcs and goblins were afraid of guns too.

They'd have an impact early on and some would be scared of them, and unless other races got guns they would eventually be destroyed or subdued if guns kept advancing.

>>54119821
Yeah sure, let's just hand a regiment of habitual drunks some delicate metalwork and expect them to take proper care of it. You're lucky if a dent is the most that happens.

>>54117496
Crossbows could pierce chainmail and leather better than bows, but it still couldn't bypass plate. Early firearms rendered plate armor nearly useless, and plate's only upside was that early guns were so inaccurate and took an age to reload.

>>54120202
He is right you retarded mongler.

Early firearms in battlalions were superior to crossbows not because of their firepower. But because of the thunderous sound they emit that made the enemy shit their pants up. Also the smoke made it harder for the enemy to aim.

Early firearms weren't better than crossbows in firepower, cuck master.

>>54118776
>that put a great deal of moral and philosophic value on the idea of all men being equal.
Which is funny because it was basically done by the colonial elite and mercenaries. The american revolution is less glorious when you realize 95% of the population sat at home, wondering why the taxman is yelling about liberty and more or less the same tax price.

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>>54120245
not necessarily. mostly because of how the bullets were shaped or what they're made of and how easily the energy is dispersed from the bullet. If we're talking anything short of carbines or muskets here, most early guns won't do much unless they're in close range, though same could be said with crossbows or even bows

>>54120276
And it wasnt like it was a big feat to deter britain, deter, not defeat. Thanks to war fatuige (which is why the taxes were so high in the first place) they didnt really send an impressive defence of the colonies, so they gave up to save money and thats one of the big reasons they still exist today.

The revolution was less a war and more a glorified slap fight.

>>54120519
It also helped that there was a significant part of the Whig party whose opinion on the American fight for independence was "just fucking let them"

>>54118352
>culturally obliterated
Speak chuckers and buffalo fuckers.
Thousands of years with no progress. How is that even worth preserving? At the end of the day what were their worth?

>>54120972
I'll shove my "progress" right up your ass and if you complain about it I'll call you a backwards bigot.

>>54117496
>Crossbows are better at punching through armor than early firearms

Now this is complete bullshit.

And even when plate did stop bullets (yes it happened) hit energy was enough to break bones.

If you got hit at short range you were done.

>>54115439
how a weapon is used and by who affects its imagery.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLOQZmjD6P2Hl3KrDBs6Vcc_5XDZbqPABC

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>>54115360

No.

Cannons would be a bigger deal as they could blow down any fortifications. And much harder to buy and use compared to guns.
Proper ships with cannons could take out boats with ease, as well as pushing around anyone living by the coast. Gunboat diplomacy and so on.

This might be enough to exploit the locals and set up some outposts.

But for a proper extinction you need the invaders to have a far more efficient agriculture and industry such that their armies alone outnumber the natives.
And a want to live on that land - no tropical diseases or similar.


And what is to stop the bestial races from being the redcoats?

>>54120972
You could say the same of any culture, really. It's not as if civilizations that have progressed really far haven't suddenly fallen, and we can't really say they were worth all that much.

>>54117815
See
>>54117524

>>54120972
Except several tribes did show progress while some were living in grass huts. It was mostly the north america tribes who lived in bronze age housing, because surprise surprise, without the settler technology developed in cozy europe and with the thousand year collected information from the natives, america is kinda a bitch to inhabit, much like serbia and africa.

>>54120972
what is anything worth anon? why should any culture be preserved?

>>54118207
Use scouts to locate the enemy and fire gunpowder filled projectiles from a concealed position then blow them up.

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>>54115360
No, they would exchange whatever they have of worth for guns.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musket_Wars
Maori culture being more proeminent than other ones nearby had to do with them acquiring guns and using them better than the europeans invading, after a couple decades of tribal warfare. Although potatoes were just as important for this to happen.

>>54116858
Uuuhmmm sweetie, he's a black man okay?

NONE OF YOU HAVE REALISED THAT THE BESTIAL RACES WILL FIND A WAY TO MAKE GUNS AND THERE IS REAL EXAMPLE OF IT
>KHYBER PASS

>>54119038
>hire a mage
>mage dies in battle
>no more magic
why would you hire only one mage?

>>54121012
>>54120972
REMOVE POL remove pol you are the worst polack. You are the pol smell you are the pole face.

>>54115439
Honestly, single-action revolver is the best route.

The single-action revolver was a HUGE step forward in gun design because it enabled (comparatively) rapid fire and a magazine of 5-8 rounds. However, reloading the weapon was slow and time-consuming, meaning that you had to make your shots count. In addition, the weapons were usually lacking in range (as all pistols are prone to be).

While anybody could pack heat, rapid, accurate fire is extremely difficult with a single-action revolver because you have to cock the hammer each time you want to cycle the round. This meant for most people you could be accurate or fast - but not both. As such, it takes significant time and practice to become accurate and fast with a single-action, and know how to husband your ammunition to maximum effect, and a man who knows how to do that can take on dozens of equally-armed thugs and come out on top.

>>54120972
>Thousands of years with no progress.

Nigga the Aztecs built a city so wealthy and powerful that even the Spanish thought it was nicer than any city in Spain, in a city that likely held over 200,000 people when the Spanish arrived. They had elaborate temples, urban districts, formal government, closed sewer systems and practiced a level of personal hygiene that floored the Spanish when they first saw them (the reason the Aztecs showered the Spaniards in incense when they arrived at Montezumas temple was not to honor them, but because they smelled horrible, and they were later quasi-forced to bathe). While the Aztec also did some pretty bad shit, and had their empire crumble because they had single-handedly pissed off everybody within a 500 mile radius of Tenochtitlan, they were a little bit better than "spear-chuckers."

That's not even getting into the Inca, who were on the track to being the next China before Pizzaro showed up at literally the worst possible time he could have done so.

>>54128509
Cap and ball, or cartridge?

>>54128638
I'd personally say cartridge, if only because by that point metallurgy and machining techniques reached the point where revolvers no longer jammed randomly or had a slim chance of blowing up in your hand. Using it at that point was all skill, not the random effects of weather or inferior metals.

who /GRC/ here?

>>54123620
When a civilization surpasses all others and propels human endeavor, knowledge and understanding. Those should be remembered, but must be surpassed. That's progress.

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>>54115360

No since niggers still exist in the modern world as well

>>54118164
Wolfwood was good too.

>>54121012
watch the edge there nigger.

>>54128616
Injuns and Africans anon. Not mezoamericans.

And in that note their culture didn't survive the clash with another, it died, trampled, almost forgotten. Just like what the Mayans and Aztecs did to their neighbors for years and years.

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Really, it was this thing + antibiotics what put a nail in the coffin of many tribes. Beforehand, it was impossible to colonise Africa in the way that Europeans were used to.

>>54115439
Hero has a handgun
Gruntss have Assault Rifles
BBEG has other kind of handgun

Yippee-Ki-Yay, motherfucker

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>>54131485

Not a single motherfucker in this thread who knows how to correctly spell the plural of cannon. I'm not gonna bother to count the number of retards who can't even get the singular right.

>>54115360
Did guns lead to the extinction of the Native Americans? You can argue for it somewhat, but ultimately it was side factor; they could just steal and/or trade for guns. They weren't exactly starved for firearms.

However, the mere existence of firearms showcases larger gulfs between the societies. Firearms may be a mere symptom, but the larger issue is that they are totally outclassed by another culture in virtually every way.

>>54115439
The same way heroic swords are mythological in games; they don't necessarily follow real life rules. As other people have said, in real life they're an equalizer, so we don't see them as that heroic. However, in a game where a master marksman should be able to blast a penny off of someone's head and be agile/perceptive enough to notice what path a bullet is going to take and avoid it, all of sudden you CAN be a heroic and badass gunslinger.

>>54131840
>plural of cannon
Is Cannon
>singular
Is also Cannon.
Are you just a retard? or are you some kind of fucking linguist who thinks he knows better than anybody else?

>>54119943
Cantrips are infinite

>>54117937
Bomb progressed faster than canons. So everyone just decided that if bows were too low power/inaccurate, and magic was too easy to block, let's just wave fantasy grenade launchers everywhere!

>>54132777
not in my day, dagnabit

get off my lawn

>>54115360
No, we didn't even manage to wipe out the bestial races in real life and we've got nukes n shit

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>>54115360
I guess summer is in full swing, since we have the same threads over and over and over again, made by people who finally hit /tg/ and started "discussions" on subjects resolved decades ago.

>>54133112
Oh hey its that one guy who doesn't think things can be discussed by different people. 50 people talked about this a week ago IT IS NOW FORBIDDEN.

>>54115731
God made men. Mr. Colt made men equal.

>>54128916
that seems a wee bit arbitary, I like how improving the quality of living isn't there, nor is stability of culture.

>>54133268
> I like how improving the quality of living isn't there, nor is stability of culture.
nah fuck that faggy shit

>>54115949
>that pic
Who is the rooster supposed to be? Portugal? Spain?

>>54116132
Silly anon. Guns ARE magic!

>>54136642
France I believe

>>54132777
Cantrips don't cut it rangewise for attack, and their defensive utility is highly limited.

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>>54115439
put it on a flag

>>54116705
watch all of the clint eastwood movies.

>>54116988
To be fair, it wasn't the gun that killed the injun, rather the pox, and that they were outbred by Quebecois fur traders who took native brides. At least, that's the East Coast natives. I'd wager the Indian Wars did a number on the more Western redskins.

What would the counter measures against mages?

Anti-mana bullets? To negate spells?

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>>54140607

>>54117101
Guns are magic made real. People already understand the principle behind it, just like airplanes.

Magic is something that most people doesn't fully understand yet.

Matter of physics is depended on the setting.

>>54116132
>magic users are the dominant political power
>non-magic races exist
>magic has limitations
>people don't like magic
>alchemists accidentally a gun
>magic is rare

Pick a reason.

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>>54116345
....Casters.....

>>54115360
I dunno, blacks are still around.

>>54131462
The bbeg has an aug tho

>>54133174
Not even him, but it takes to be a true newfag to not check archive

>>54119685
it literally says 'Chinese' at the bottom

>>54143795
Ah yes, I love how I can have an active discussion with those 50 people from a weak ago in a closed off thread on a completely different site. They're much better company than yourself though, that's for sure.