MP

>>54096975

It isn't? It depends on how you're using it and the context involved.

Magic points can be interesting, but they involve extra bookkeeping and resource management, and can lead to someone spamming a single option endlessly rather than using a variety. All of these can be worked around, of course, but they're just a couple of design issues it can have off the top of my head.

File: 1hp.jpg (82KB, 475x500px) Image search: [Google]

82KB, 475x500px

Same reason why HP for injury is a bad idea: as long as it's above 0 it has no effect.

File: 12219490_10153930132545934_3731112224194993354_n.jpg (77KB, 678x960px) Image search: [Google]

77KB, 678x960px

>>54097135
Same applies to Vancian casting, it's not a real problem.

>>54096992
I think it was something to do with min-maxing an optimal magic points formula that made these systems so easy to game.

>>54097135

But that's not a bad thing, it's just another design trait you need to consider for whether it's appropriate.

Plus remembering that HP isn't meat points.

>>54097170

That seems kind of confusing to me. The whole idea of magic points, spending a point based resource to activate abilities, is so broadly applicable in many different ways that an 'optimal formula' is meaningless, unless you're talking about a very specific implementation of the concept.

>>54097135
False. You halve move and dodge at 1/3rd HP, and losing any HP means shock penalties. Play more games.

File: 33822228693_b5c3fcefda_b.jpg (351KB, 779x1024px) Image search: [Google]

351KB, 779x1024px

>>54096975
They... aren't?

I mean, burying small explosive devices in the ground is a very bad idea if you are organizing a garden party and a very good idea if you are organizing a war.

Question is far too broad to answer effectively. Post weird spellcasters instead.

>>54097236
A magic point system implies differing MP costs for various spells or effects. Since these effects have numbers, the effect numbers can be easily crunched against the MP costs to derive optimal damage spells. Hence min-maxing. If the designer makes sure that all effect numbers are precisely balanced against MP costs, you get...D&D 4E...just kidding, a bland system wherein the spells are just different names on the same boring mechanic.

>>54097288

Except that's a stupid false dichotomy that assumes the only things spells can do is damage?

Even then, that's no different to spell slots. It changes the optimisation game a little, but you can still evaluate how to get the maximum damage per slot just like you can get the maximum damage per spell point.

>>54097288
>a bland system wherein the spells are just different names on the same boring mechanic

As opposed to 3.5e which gave us fireball, ice ball, lightning ball, acid ball, fire cone, acid cone, lightning cone, ice cone... All scattered around at different levels with no fucking explaination as to why they should be different

>>54097242
in anima low mp causes you to be tired. acting like hp can differ by system but not mp is foolish

File: dungeon fighter rogue.jpg (150KB, 850x871px) Image search: [Google]

150KB, 850x871px

Hey guyz...what if...stick with me here...what if MP = HP?

>>54097363
better idea, what if mp=stamina and you gave both casters and martials a resource to work with

and then allowed martials to do cool things

>>54097419

This is a good idea a lot of systems use.

Unfortunately it makes a lot of D&D players mad. Martials aren't allowed to have nice things.

File: 1476849466404.png (221KB, 720x1368px) Image search: [Google]

221KB, 720x1368px

>>54097419
But martials can already do cool things. Look at all of this damage I'm doing. Do you see how much damage I'm doing? My damage is so big! I can do all of the damage!

File: final_fantasy_yoshitaka_amano_wallpaper-825.jpg (671KB, 1280x1024px) Image search: [Google]

671KB, 1280x1024px

>>54097285

File: 1486538073063.jpg (57KB, 570x900px) Image search: [Google]

57KB, 570x900px

>>54097500

File: 1480304093630.jpg (688KB, 1200x1600px) Image search: [Google]

688KB, 1200x1600px

>>54097519

>>54097170
>Same applies to Vancian casting
No, you can run out of one kind of spell but have several other spells available.

>>54097419
Then everything magic has to be balanced against martial damage...and you end up with the blandness of 4E again.

>>54097560

Can you expand on this? Why exactly did you think 4e was bland?

>>54097560
Hardly true. You can get Melee classes powers or maneuvers or "Special called attacks" or what have you- without resorted to the extreme flattened level 4e used.

>>54097545

Unless you're a spontaneous caster. Or just prepare the optimal spells in all your slots.

>>54096975
They're not.

File: tumblr_np0ov3Nxan1rih1gbo1_1280.jpg (591KB, 878x1200px) Image search: [Google]

591KB, 878x1200px

So which games use magic points (well)?

>>54097475 >>54097430
The main reason I object to a martial "stamina bar" is that I don't see why, having swung my sword in X way once, I can't do it again.

>>54097617
Cause you're tired.

>>54097617

Well, depending on the way the system is designed, you might be able to.

If it isn't, though, it's that the system isn't thinking about it in the same terms you are. Whether it's Book of Nine Swords style actually supernatural swordplay, or whether it's a straight up narrative abstraction, there are plenty of ways it can make sense, but not from within a purely simulation/realism perspective.

>>54097617
Do it how GURPS does it. All combat options are available, and fatigue can be spent on extra effort, which soups up your options for defense, offense, mobility, and control. If you want really fancy stuff, you can make powers that cost fatigue, like being able to jump great distances, throw things really far, channel your "martial might" into a bladestroke that lets it pierce solid rock, etc., and you have a decent amount of fatigue to start with (about six or seven uses per combat), and can just buy up your fatigue or get an energy reserve that doesn't fatigue you to power stuff with.

>>54097633
But there's no mechanical effect on my normal attacks, run speed, dodging ability, etc?

>>54097616
BRP based games for example, call of Cthulu and runequest. They also tend to have localized damage so PC aren't hp sponges.It also means it's a lot more lethal so your average player can be overwhelmed be mooks if he is stupid enough.

>>54097617
Because you get tired and expend your Ki, faglord.

>>54097560
A Stamina bar is far better than limiting martial powers by encounter like vancian spells.

Have Stam/MP Bar. Regen half on short rest. Full regen on long rest.

>>54097586
This. What about a martial who cuts the air so quickly, they create a vaccume blade? Or who can split iron and stone with a single strike, negating hardness or armor DR? Or split the earth? Or shout so loud it stuns nearby enemies or inflicts terror? Or who can brace and withstand the charge of a fully armored warhorse?

>>54097671
Running out of Stamina completly applies light encumberance to you. Fixed. Wooow.

>>54097691

Martial encounter abilities can work, it just needs to be in the right context. If you're not going full supernatural martial arts, then the way the system is set up needs to make it clear that it's a narrative abstraction.

Not everyone is okay with that sort of narrative mechanic, but I honestly prefer it. I think it creates variety and allows more interesting options rather than trying to balance spammable abilities against one another, which often just leads to using the same thing over and over. Yes, it's 'realistic', but it's less interesting game design wise and, at least for me and the groups I play with, means there's less interesting choices involved in combat.

Then again, I play in groups who dabble in storygames and boardgames, so taking cues from those two angles makes our acceptance of such mechanics make more sense, I suppose.

>>54097135
Holmes Basic didn't *provide* penalties for low hp, but it did tell the ref to dole them out.

>>54097691
>Because you get tired and expend your Ki, faglord.

Rude. I never said I objected to the idea of martials getting nice things or the powers of demigods. I just specifically object to the idea of making what should be mundane things rely on a stamina bar.

Like, I've got no problem with a martial's ability to cut a mountain in half being restricted by some kind of stamina bar. I'm less keen on letting stuff like tripping or sundering be subject to a stamina bar.

However the issue with NOT putting them on a stamina bar, if there is one, is that it's clunky from a game design perspective. Particularly if everything is supposed to be on basically the same system with the serial numbers filed off (martial stamina/arcane stamina/divine faith/roguish luck/whatever).

>>54096975
I implemented a very crude one for my players when we played with a few new people, and half of them were drunk. I thought it'd be easier than keeping track of days, and fit the scenario for the session well.
Ended up as just magic missile spam with an occasional turn for healing for the whole thing. I think if somebody spent the time to plan out it, it'd definitely work though.

>>54097671
Fine. Normal attacks, movement, and evasion now cost stamina.

>>54097285
Someone hosts shit garden parties

>>54097560
>>54097617
Wrong, this only happens if you take vancian casting and slap melee maneuvers on it.
Riddle of steel and it's family use a combat pool which refreshes completely every other round. And melee maneuvers have different activation costs. On top of that you choose how many of your dice you are throwing every time you choose a maneuver.
Magic works similar, but on a different time scale. Their spells take longer to complete than it takes for a melee character to make an attack, and the sorcery pool refreshes slower. But in turn magic is fucking powerful. Unless you have a javelin through your chest, of course.
Roughly speaking.

>>54097616
not exactly magic points but quite similar. See above

>>54098754
>I think if somebody spent the time to plan out it, it'd definitely work though.
Das schwarze Auge / The dark eye does do magic points. I have never looked much into the system though. Not sure how well it does it.

File: 1436691554560.jpg (156KB, 864x646px) Image search: [Google]

156KB, 864x646px

>>54097170
>>54096975

the two reasons are:
Tends to make vancian casters jealous
can be a pain to keep track of compared to vancian casters

>>54097135

dammit you've made me come up with a Magic Point system that works like a wound system now:
casters have 10 "minor" spell points plus one "major" spell point per caster level (max 8).
Minor spell points are used for 1st level spells and recharge after short rests.
major points recharge after a longer rest and are used for 2nd level+ spells. Those spells cost one major point per spell level -1, so a level 2 spell costs one major point, level 3 costs 2, 9th lvl costs 8 etc...

Once out of minor or major points, a caster can continue to cast spells, but each additional casting (regardless of spell level) gives them a negative penalty to casting rolls, and the caster must make mental fortitude saves (DC: spell level +10 +casting penalties); on successful rolls, they merely recieve the penalty, which are cumulative, but on a failure they get the penalty & gain a derangement.

Penalties are removed at the rate of one point per long rest, as do derangements.
So if a PC cast 4 spells past their spell point allotment and so had -4 penalty to casting and had failed their save throw 2 times and gotten two derangements, the next time they take a long rest they would awaken with only a -3 penalty and 1 derangement (derangements are removed in reverse order of obtaining them, so if a caster got madness1, then madness2, then madness3, madness3 would be removed in the next rest, then madness2, then madness1)

>>54098169
This is why I like the idea of settings that outright state the PC's are abnormal in some way. A game where everybody is a vampire uses blood powers to go superhuman. A game where someones a demi-god uses demigod powers to perform superhuman feats. A "human" uses mastery of the human body to be 100% efficient, and then be 110% efficient in their actions and movements, which the "normal" human body doesn't like, so they can only do it so often.

Sure there are other people like that around, and if you don't abuse your abilities then you might just be equivalent to normal, but it's easier than coming up with "okay, we need to give martial classes something at X level that transcends them above the others and says 'you are no longer one of the normal people' " (which honestly would be setting dependent most likely rather than something a generic system could do).

>>54096975
Because most of them allow you to cast more of powerful spells. It needs more book keeping and will make spell caster even more deadly.

>>54096975
They're only a bad idea in D&D/D20 systems. If your system has terrible spells like Magic Missile and awesome spells like Solid Fog spell points aren't going to work, because there are no amount of Magic Missiles that would be as impactful as one solid fog. Spell points work best in systems similar to Final Fantasy, where spells are simply improved versions of previous spells (fire->fira->firaga->firaja, poison->bio, etc)

>>54101357

This doesn't even need to be specific to the PC's. Wuxia settings have a universal assumption that mundane skill, through enough training, can achieve impossibly potent results, and that informs the scope and tone of the setting.

>>54097288
>the effect numbers can be easily crunched against the MP costs to derive optimal damage spells
As opposed to crunching the number for the optimal damage spell of that spell level?

Actually, with a MP system you could have more tactical options:
For example you could either do a Fire Cone for 5 MP and 6 DMG, Fireball for 10 MP and 10 DMG or a Meteor for 25 MP and 20 DMG or something like that.

But to be honest i am kinda playing devils advocate here, i myself prefer systems that are way lighter then that anyway.

>>54097363
That's called Vitality points. It was in 3.5 UA, and was the default in Star Wars d20.

>>54097741
I prefer setup abilities. So the more powerful the ability the more you need to do during combat to activate it. It may just cost you X actions to activate, maybe you must take a penalty to some of your stats or maybe it works like a combo power and you must activate some other abilities before you can use your trump card.

>>54101845

Set ups are nice ideas, but they can be very restrictive in terms of playstyle. Instead of weighing your options against the encounter, instead you'll always be trying to repeat the exact sequence to get to your big move.

I think the big asset of 1/encounter abilities is the opportunity cost they present. Because you can only do each big thing once, choosing to use it is a meaningful tactical choice, the implicit limitation making the decision more interesting. Stimulating interesting decisionmaking is, at least for me, one of the most important parts of a combat system.

File: 1492974076267.gif (879KB, 500x400px) Image search: [Google]

879KB, 500x400px

>>54096975
They're actually fine, assuming there's a logical design to the system and magic has some limitations or drawbacks.

Check out Hackmaster 5E for a system that does it well. There's vancian casting for clerics, and spellpoints for mages. The spellpoints allow for the flexibility of amping up spells to get extra effects, as well as having the right spell for the job.

File: !dark elf by gongcheng.jpg (403KB, 1000x1332px) Image search: [Google]

403KB, 1000x1332px

>>54101673
Speaking of tactical options, I once had a MP system where you multiplied the level of the spell by how powerful you wanted it to be, so you a mega-fireball to take down a giant might cost 40 MP while a small fire globe to take down a kobold might cost only 5 MP.

That presented a lot of tactical options in combat and strategic options in long-term resource management.

But it was a lot of paperwork.

>>54097173
>>54097242
>hp isn't meat points meme
Explain poison damage then

>>54103841

Because HP is an abstraction that includes meatpoint. It also includes luck, stamina, minor magical protections and anything else you'd care to fold under the umbrella of 'shit that lets you keep fighting'.

>>54103841

>>54097242 here. I have no idea why you pinged me, since I'm not even talking about D&D (hence "play more games"), but whatever.

>Explain poison damage then
D&D's game "designers" can't design something internally consistent to save their lives. They say that HP "represent a combination of physical and mental durability, the will to live, and luck." If that were true, why doesn't Int or Wis add to HP? Only Constitution does. Why is Cure Wounds curing wounds, and not "Restore Fighting Spirit," or some other ham-fisted interpretation? Why can a level 10 fighter take 5 blows from a great axe before worrying about their low HP? It's a big fuzzy mess that's unsatisfying no matter how you look at it.

>>54097135
hp is stamina

>>54097323
Just kill yourself. 3.5 is best

HPs are the things anime characters have that keep them from getting broken bones when they get punched through buildings. You're not dead once they're gone, but you're winded and vulnerable.

>>54097419
>and then allowed martials to do cool things
Fuck your shit weeaboo. Martials shouldn't behave like an anime.

File: 1482895906446.png (176KB, 1586x1130px) Image search: [Google]

176KB, 1586x1130px

>>54104085

>>54103953
>"Restore Fighting Spirit," or some other ham-fisted interpretation
and when they tried doing that, people had actual sperg outs for 10 years

>>54097419
in my last 3.5 game I gave my fighter Hero Charges that basically gave him a number of times a day where he could do something remarkable. Way overpower physical skill and ability checks, pull of crits at the right moment and make them more potent, get an extra move action so he could move and full attack, stuff like that. The player really liked it, and he thought it felt pretty powerful, but there weren't any full casters in the party to weigh against it.

>>54104159

It's such a shame. 4e was good, but it was cursed by more than just the ridiculous fanbase reaction, which was mostly based on lies and false assumptions.

>>54104106
>ignoring Roland, who cut a mountain in half with his sword
Nice magical sword.
>ignoring King Arthur killing a thousand men with a sword strike
Nice magical sword.
>ignoring Heracles shooting a arrow at the fucking sun
Nice magical bow.
>ignoring Thor flattening a mountain with a hammer blow
Nice magical hammer.
And some of those are literally anime. Gilgamesh, Lancelot, King Arthuria. Are all anime.

Die, weeaboo scum. My Glock 37 can kill all of those meme characters, some of them are even literally whos

>>54104180

>And some of those are literally anime. Gilgamesh, Lancelot, King Arthuria. Are all anime.

3/10 got me up until then

>>54104180
>Nice magical bow.

Hercule's bow is never stated to be magic in his myths. Heck, it barely gets any mention at all outside of Herc doing impressive things with it and it being too heavy for most men to use.

>>54104159
It's fucking tragic, because 4e was a real step forward for D&D, and 5e is twelve steps back.

Also, I just remembered something else that'll make people endlessly confused (e.g. poison):
>Dungeon Masters describe hit point loss in different ways.
>When your current hit point total is half or more of your hit
>point maximum, you typically show no signs of injury. When
>you drop below half your hit point maximum, you show signs
>of wear, such as cuts and bruises. An attack that reduces you
>to 0 hit points strikes you directly, leaving a bleeding injury or
>other trauma, or it simply knocks you unconscious.

Why didn't they make this fluff represented mechanically in the system, like bloodied did in 4e? Why does poison work before you're at a certain threshold of HP if there's typically no signs of injury? Why not have poison kill you outright like it did in the older editions, or do attribute damage, or literally anything else? Who knows! Can't have good game design and gotta pander to a crowd we lost a decade ago to an even shittier version of our game.

>>54104238
If it was a regular bow, Hercules would have broken it with his bare hands, come on bruh

>>54104277

So Hercule's wife was also magic because he didn't break her? How many +s did she have?

>>54104242
There is a hard limit on what you can do and track with pen and paper before it gets easier just to go full digital

>>54101588
>If your system has terrible spells like Magic Missile and awesome spells like Solid Fog spell points aren't going to work, because there are no amount of Magic Missiles that would be as impactful as one solid fog.
Until you first run into a ghost.

>>54104298
What do you mean by that? Is it too hard for you to remember to halve move and doge at 1/3 or less HP? Do you need a computer to do that for you?

>>54101588
>Spell points work best in systems similar to Final Fantasy, where spells are simply improved versions of previous spells (fire->fira->firaga->firaja, poison->bio, etc)
Until you get retarded balancing issues like spell point inefficiency across spells where a stronger spell is less efficient then just spamming lower level spells, or using a big spell is always better than using a smaller spell as long as you have the spell points to spend.

>>54104344
Me? maybe

Jonny averageplayer? possibly

The lowest common denominator that must be designed around least your venture fail? Absolutely

You know its true. Any complexity haemorrhages players

>>54104242
>leaving a bleeding injury or>other trauma
Got a table for that? Post injury tables. The ones I have seen go from bruises to death, and that's no fun

>>54104426
The sad part is that I know it's true. I've had the misfortune of playing Pathfinder with several people, not one, that didn't know how to roll their attacks. And they had played in multiple sessions of it.


>>54104498
Fuck no. I don't play D&D. I just bitch about it when people accuse me of playing it. If you want injury tables, go play the abortion that is Dark Heresy and its ilk. Savage Worlds also has a decent injury table.

>>54104540
>go play the abortion that is Dark Heresy
Or I can just check their pdf and steal the table.

Thanks, gonna look up the catalog.

Slots are like capitalism. They're not perfect, and they don't always work, but it's the best we've got.

I imagine there's a way to let people cast their spells infinitely by forcing them to hyper focus on 1 school and disregard all others

>>54104631
how about slots + magic points?

>>54098169
So make mountain-cutting cost a significant amount of stamina and tripping cost a small amount, but have basic attacks cost nothing. Basically the idea is that only special maneuvers cost resources. Then you just have to define what counts as a maneuver and what doesn't.

>>54104540
You might not like it but stupid tends to win. You cannot ever assume little enough about your fellow man. To be more blunt and possibly more cruel. If second edition is so perfect why are we on 5th?

At least the dumbing down is spread out

>>54104644
5e sorcerer does this and the system is pretty cool, but sorcerer blows. If you don't know, they use slots to cast spells and points to modify them. They just need more options and access to a few more spells known and they'd be great.

>>54104729

Or to be the playtest sorcerer, which was a fucking awesome idea that I'm still mad they got rid of.

>>54104644
How about you just outlaw casters then?
Or add weapon breakdown to meele?

You know how seemingly too many people will horde items in rpgs? Never use one of their 99 stack of buff or healing items. Add MP and slots and your wizards will simply horde most of their spells. Every round will be a nightmare trying to convince yours that its not a waste to spend his precious MP on any given fight when the GM could drop something worse any second.

Or to use a more /v/ example. Dragon age mages used mana and CD's for their spells. Nothing is worse then auto-attacking as a fucking caster because your magical powers are out of breath

>>54104745
I never looked at the playtest sorc. Got a link or pdf or something?

>>54104754
>being this mad
Casters have to be nerfed, this is FACT

>>54101262
>can be a pain to keep track of compared to vancian casters
I find it easier to keep track of one MP number than to keep track of several different numbers for several different spells. "Okay, I have 75 MP left" is much simpler than "Okay, I have 4 Magic Missiles, 2 Hastes, 1 Stoneflesh, 5 Greases, and 1 Improved Invisibility."

>>54101357
I don't see how that's functionally different from using mana/stamina/whatever for more mundane maneuvers. It's just flavored differently.

>>54104778

I don't have it unfortunately, but tl;dr they used an MP system for spellcasting, and unlocked traits as they spent MP.

The playtest example was the Dragon Sorc, where spending MP on spells also let them unlock passive draconic manifestations that lasted until the end of the day, shifting gears from a full spellcaster to a decent second line fighter, meaning even when you'd spent all your resources you still had a role and some cool things you could do.

It was a really cool idea for giving them a very distinct identity and playstyle compared to wizards that was entirely abandoned.

>>54104782
Perhaps. I would support dragging them closer to something like clerics. You want the wizard to be less of a party-ending god? Allow him to do something other then die when removed from his spells. /tg/ rarely gives ideas here. Only bleeding anus punishments, you don't want class balance, you want casters to be worthless until 10th edition because petty revenge

>>54104869

The problem with Wizards is that they don't actually have a role or identity beyond 'do magic', and 'do magic' might as well be 'do anything'.

It's why more limited casters in D&D tend to work a lot better, because they have a stronger identity, a smaller but more thematic and focused spell list and features to support that. You're able to build them to be interesting in themselves rather than the bland and overpowered mess you get.

I think fixing Wizards particularly very much starts with nailing down an identify for them that's both more interesting and more limiting than just 'do magic'.

>>54103841
Poison makes you tired -> reduces fighting spirit.

>>54104923
See that actually makes sense. I might suggest simply rolling a lot of the more support oriented magical sub-classes back into wizard. The caster should be utility backed up by a few hard hitting murdercasts. Sure he might be as good as a dedicated trap whore, might be a tier 2 face vs a social character but that's the point.

"Wizards use magic and wit to support their allies and help direct the flow of events"

The wizard identity should be that of a magical everyman. Able to tune his study and spells to cover a groups shortcomings. Leave DPS magic to the sorc or warlock

>>54104986

That kinda infringes Bards niche, though. Then again, I've never quite been sure D&D blends Bard and hedge-mage together.

>>54104869

For D&D, not that wizards are crazy broken anymore.
Drops wizards completely.
Break it down into Conjurer, Evoker, Diviner, etc, they can only naturally learn spells of the school they know.
Create a series of Minor School feats that allow them to have lower level spells of their minor schools available to them.

As for not dying in combat when out of spells, give them a class feature that lets them bind a spell to a weapon and as long as it's bound that weapon deals increased damage. The bound wouldn't count as a spell/day, more of just a permanent weapon enchant that can be swapped around and have different effects.

I'm just throwing shit out there. I think the biggest thing is a focus on a particular school above all others.

>>54104923
>The problem with Wizards is that they don't actually have a role or identity beyond 'do magic', and 'do magic' might as well be 'do anything'.
The real problem here is that magic in D&D doesn't really have well defined (or any) limitations. There's pretty much nothing you CAN'T do with magic if you're high enough level and have access to the right spell.

>>54101362
>It needs more book keeping
How does MP need more bookkeeping than Vancian spell slots? It's a single number. You've got your list of spells, their mana costs, and your total mana. Cast a spell, subtract the mana cost. Very simple.

>>54104367
>Until you get retarded balancing issues like spell point inefficiency across spells where a stronger spell is less efficient then just spamming lower level spells
But if you're fighting something tough, you may not have time to throw ten low-level spells at it before it kills you. You need to hit it with two high-level spells instead.

>or using a big spell is always better than using a smaller spell as long as you have the spell points to spend.
"Using the best ability you have is always the best choice as long as you can spare the resources" would be true in any system.

>>54105060
there's a lot of class overlap right now. With generalist taken by other classes the mage kinda has to go full ham into spell domination. I would say push for -broad- architypes with plenty of customisation. bit I donno how I feel about a world where druid, bard, sorc, wizard, warlock, thuge and Other magic heavy classes are all developed out from the umbrella "mage" category

>>54105134
People would complain about being pigeonholed, discriminated against and "NPC wizards don't have to do this!" and those complaints matter- as trash as they might be.

I do support the idea of swapping out a familiar for some kind of basic magical weapon. Wizard wont be cutting niggers up but his floating blade would at least do consistent damage and require attention to control when spells are exausted

>>54104754
"But I might need it later!" is a problem in any system with any kind of limited or consumable resource.

>Or to use a more /v/ example. Dragon age mages used mana and CD's for their spells. Nothing is worse then auto-attacking as a fucking caster because your magical powers are out of breath
I'd say that depends. Am I forced to autoattack with a melee weapon or a crossbow, or can I autoattack with a magic staff that shoots generic magic blasts and that only mages can use? If it's the latter, I'm okay with it. How does Dragon Age do it? I bought it recently in a GOG sale but still haven't played it.

>>54105134
>For D&D, not that wizards are crazy broken anymore.
>Drops wizards completely.
>Break it down into Conjurer, Evoker, Diviner, etc, they can only naturally learn spells of the school they know.
>Create a series of Minor School feats that allow them to have lower level spells of their minor schools available to them.
I think that would work quite well. People could still do what they want with wizards as long as what they want to do isn't "everything", and it would go a long way toward fixing the balance issues.

>As for not dying in combat when out of spells, give them a class feature that lets them bind a spell to a weapon and as long as it's bound that weapon deals increased damage. The bound wouldn't count as a spell/day, more of just a permanent weapon enchant that can be swapped around and have different effects.
Also a good idea, but increased damage doesn't help if you never hit, and a wizard's stats aren't usually conducive to hitting things with weapons.

>>54105165
"Using the best ability you have is always the best choice as long as you can spare the resources" would be true in any system
There is a difference between "always most efficient" like use 5 SP to deal 30 damage vs spend 4 to deal 20 and a more circumstantial "Enemies cannot move" vs "enemies can move but they take damage when they do it"
The former is the kind most videogames go for, which is the source of my criticism.

>>54105414
>The last bit
This is true. Could maybe add like half your casting stat added to hit rolls for the weapon since it is technically enchanted. Would keep it at a +2 forever which isn't so bad. 5e got rid of a ton of item creation rules (for damn good reason) and this could maybe bring a little of that feel back without breaking things.

>>54105533
Sounds like a good idea, as long as I can make it into a staff that shoots magic bolts.

>>54105414
After a game or two it went exactly as you said. Every spell had a cooldown and between casts you twirled your staff around shooting pathetic little jolts of magic until you where allowed to have fun again. Some people might enjoy this, but I found it frustrating enough to look into bow rogue and warrior because then my basic attacks felt more meaningful

>>54104923
>I think fixing Wizards particularly very much starts with nailing down an identify for them that's both more interesting and more limiting than just 'do magic'.
All wizards should be specialists. Generalist wizards should not be allowed for the reasons stated.

>>54105060
You know, the bard has always been a meme class, maybe we should just delete it

>>54105134
>Break it down into Conjurer, Evoker, Diviner, etc,
This. Always bothered me why the fuck does the wizard can learn and use spells from different schools of magic. What the fuck? Its like a character innately knowing how to use greatswords as good as bow and arrow. Makes no fucking sense, they are different types of training and learning involved.

"Oh but its magic I ain't gotta explain shit" <-- This is the problem with casters.

>>54105827

Nah, there's plenty of foundation in fantasy fiction and mythology for bards, you just need to straighten out the blurred mess of overlap that is D&D's cliche classes.

I always thought that harassment of wizards (via monsters and exhaustion) was a fun way to balance against them narratively.

If the wizard can escape and prepare, then excellent, she feels like she outsmarted the enemy and used the toolkit of spells properly.

But once she's out of spells, I try to make them fight to get them back.

Most wizard-dickery stems from metagaming type players having too ready an access to all the spells they want whenever they want it.

>>54106220

But if the whole game has to be warped around the GM fucking with wizards specifically, isn't that a sign that the options they have are unbalanced?

>>54105892
>a character innately knowing how to use greatswords as good as bow and arrow
Well, that's technically true for fighters. But it's not on the same level of overpowered bullshit potential.

>>54105134
To this day I still adore making Transmutation Wizards in 5e and taking absolutely nothing but transmutation spells, it really balances them out.

>>54106220
Plus it's really funny to have kobolds or goblins smashing pans in the dead of night or spamming Ghost Sound to keep wizards up so they / the entire party can't ever sleep. Why use necromancy to inflict exhaustion when goblins can do it on their own?

to say nothing of using actual ghosts for haunting and harassment.

>>54105892
Because spells are not as complex as weapons? How you swing a longsword is different to a greatsword. Spells on the other hand have never worked like that, so long as you have the components, know the spell then you can theoretically cast.

Being a fighter is like being a doctor. Once you've made the decision you can choose to specialise in skills that don't transfer over. Magic is like learning management. Different groups are well, different. But the same skills transfer over

I've been working on my own system and health and magic points is one of the mechanics I've still not made up my mind about.

I decided I want at least two different kinds of health. One represents surface, non-lethal and "cosmetic" damage. Another represents potentially lethal and more impactful issues, such as losing an arm or pneumonia. Sources of damage are different from each other not only based on numbers, or what kind of damage they deal, but also other effects related to the damage (for example: a sickness can prevent you from healing up to your maximum normal health until you get cured). Really powerful effects can leave wounds that work differently from simply being dealt damage (although that can be a part of the effect), and I'm not going to detail those. Losing all of your normal HP leaves you helpless and unable to take actions temporarily (you're unconscious, tired, bound, etc.). Losing all of your tougher HP may force you to retire your character (you're killed, put in a coma, captured, etc.).

Now, I wanted to make healing classes useful without making them necessary (i.e. increasing the lethality so you either have a healer or you die). I decided to make some effects, be them magic or martial arts, cost you your normal HP to cast. Usually they would have a cost the first time you use them, and an increased cost every other time until you rest.

Opinions? Suggestions?

>>54106545

Except that is entirely arbitrary and only works that way because you say it does.

>>54106301
Oh, totally. I don't necessarily want to squish wizards into the same power tier as fighters per capita.

I advocate playing up the whole magic = trouble-magnet angle, and the wizard who distorts the world too much also gets his annoying weaknesses played up... stealing their spellbooks is a huge setback for them, or messing with his sleep and focus.

Wizards are designed to be riddle solvers, with the perfect solution at hand (in theory) if they can get access to it, so I try to fiddle with their access if they get too uppity.

Plus players have a lot of fun when you let them cut loose and explode stuff occasionally.

>>54097363
Numenera does this and I actually like it. Abilities cost points from your three pools (tricky rogue things cost Speed, tough fighty things cost Might, and magic stuff costs Intellect, though there are some exceptions), but then things that do damage will damage Might, then Speed, then Intellect in that order (some things like poisons or magic may affect other ones first). Once all three run out, you die.

>>54096975

Magic points are often doled out in a linear fashion. But spells as they usually exist are best described as scaling exponentially in narrative fashion.

I'll assume you're using a system with Vancian spellcasting as your base frame of reference, so let's recap:

Level 1 spells: Hurt a guy a little, create a silent image, make friends with someone
Level 3 spells: Hurt a bunch of guys a lot, fly, scare everyone in a 30' cone
Level 5 spells: Create an impenetrable shield, dominate someone's psyche, teleport through a network of trees
Level 9 spells: Incinerate everything, open a gate to Hell, stop time, Wish for anything you want

Even if you're doling out points cost on an exponential level -- say, equal to the level of the spell squared -- you still have to address the fact that one casting of Wish is not the same as casting Magic Missile 81 times. Wish is better in all cases. There's no comparing the two. So you get spell slots in 5th edition, with the option to increase the power of a spell by burning a higher level spell slot. Metamagic in previous editions did the same thing.

For what it's worth, I think you can do it right, if you design the system with power points in mind. But you have to start with that as the sole end goal, rather than slapping it on top of an existing system.

>>54106804
I think you could manage a system where levels = MP cost and give MP at a linear fashion. You would just need to figure out a scale and rate that works.

And it would have to address the problem of if you use big spells, you won't have enough MP to do anything lesser.

>>54106804
Things like Wish shouldn't even be a spell. At least not one you can cast every day with relatively little preparation and cost.

>>54107025

It's something I saw highlighted a while ago that really nailed one of the problems with D&D's approach to magic.

Genies can grant wishes. It's a core part of their identity and themes, and how they're used in stories. And how does D&D deal with that? By giving them a copy of a spell. The single most powerful, unique aspect of their nature... Is just a spell that Wizards can get anyway.

>>54106570
Well, me and the system. Hell we could just go back... give wizards severe xp penalties. Balance the power with a severe curve or just dick move and lock raw damage spells to higher slots. Let wizards learn group mechanics early on by limiting them to utility and less spotlight hogging spells

>>54107071

>He thinks damage spells are the problem

>>54106545
>Because spells are not as complex as weapons?
Why? As the other anon said, its just because you say so.

> Spells on the other hand have never worked like that, so long as you have the components, know the spell then you can theoretically cast.
And this implies a fighter should be able to learn them. He is a character that has spent +5 years refining his manual arts. I think he can take a few minutes on the side to also gather components and cast spells then.

And seriously, I would think learning this spiritual, abstract shit, called Magic, should be way more complex than learning how to swing a longsword or greatsword.

>>54107067
Technically RAW, don't you have to actually LEARN the spell in order to cast it? It's not like you're supposed to be able to cast wish the moment you get access to level 9 spells. And something as powerful as Wish would be incredibly difficult to find and learn.

>>54107215
In 3.x you get two freebies per level. Wish has rather large XP cost attached to it, so no-one is going to be casting it casually.

>>54107025

In 5e, there's a ~33% chance that it's the only Wish you'll ever be able to cast. Each time you cast it, you roll the dice. You also have to rest and recuperate after casting it, so you can't spam it and it has to be the last thing you're going to do that week.

>>54107148
> And seriously, I would think learning this spiritual, abstract shit, called Magic, should be way more complex than learning how to swing a longsword or greatsword.

Unless wielding a greatsword properly is like magic.

Really, the way they're depicted in most fantasy art, grandmaster swordsmen are kind of like the way Monks are written in the fluff. They spend their lives mastering the art of the sword, until they can do amazing things. Look to the Wheel of Time and the Elder Scrolls for some examples of that.

Remember, by Clarke's law of fiction, any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. If complex applications of human knowledge are indistinguishable from magic, then it must follow that sufficiently advanced martial arts can be included in that category.

Book of Weeaboo Fightan Magic 5e when?

>>54107537
A lot of people don't want fighters to reach the mages' levels.

And I agree, I don't want this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hs2QcokiYkI
This is dumb.

>>54104238
>>54104106
speaking of hercules, one of the tales for the formation of the constellation of cancer is 10/10
>hercules fighting the hydra
>hera sends a crab down to distract him
>crab gets kicked with such force that it's propelled into the sky
it's like hearing about a fucking dwarf fortress combat log

>>54104180
Thors hammer has three enchantments. It does not break, it can grow and shrink and if thrown it returns to his hand.
He is described as having a strength enhancing belt in his full battle gear though.

>And some of those are literally anime. Gilgamesh, Lancelot, King Arthuria. Are all anime.
What the fuck. Read a book you plebeian.

File: 1479834509033.jpg (86KB, 600x600px) Image search: [Google]

86KB, 600x600px

>>54106545
>Because spells are not as complex as weapons?
>Being a fighter is like being a doctor.
we've did it
we've hit the stupidity event horizon

File: 2022e4d9-e564-4def-a54d-91c1e24e649d.jpg (394KB, 670x900px) Image search: [Google]

394KB, 670x900px

>>54096975
No idea. If it's an efficiency thing then you just adjust the math for the value of a spell slot instead of points. And if lower level effects are more efficient, then they likely run into "you need to kill that thing in two rounds before it gets to you but those efficient spells will need ten castings, vs spending more power to get the job done NOW"

Really, I prefer the way Spheres of Power handles it. Not perfect, still needs some balance work between different spheres/schools, but casters end up much more focused and thematic, able to contribute all day without running out of magic, but they only get so many points to enhance spells for big effects.

File: 1430153746138.jpg (251KB, 900x1145px) Image search: [Google]

251KB, 900x1145px

>>54104631
I hate people like you. Like with Capitalism, it's shit, it's always been shit, and just because you like living in shit; eating shit, sleeping in shit, etc... doesn't mean the rest of us want to and it sure as hell doesn't mean we cant do better. We can always improve something. Perfection is an attainable thing but if all you're going to do is sit there and settle, die and get out of the way. You're wasting resources. Resources like MP.

>>54108756

Go cry more dirty commie.

>>54106220
My problem with "prepare" as far as wizards go is that they don't really get too many options to prepare and/or it takes a long time. Most spells aren't the kind that let you booby-trap areas. One concentration spell at a time means you can only ever have 1 magical defense, buff, or debuff spell active anyway. Most spells don't have powerful subtle effects like creating the equivalent to a "somebody elses problem" field or whatever to prevent civilians getting in the way of a fight which allows the wizard to throw fireballs in a city during the day. Escape options are typically limited to high levels, no illusionary copies of yourself that run in different directions to allow you to escape. The lowest level is invisibility or short range teleportation, or just super speed.

Maybe I just see it more as a GM, where it seems like in 5e when I'm planning for the players to attack a wizard/mage hideout, there either needs to be lots of strong mages to keep up spells, or they've employed some mercenaries they can support with illusions and divination to use powerful guerrilla tactics, except the "general" divination spells like Augery aren't on the wizard spell list so I need to play around with some other methods like magic items and summoning. (I usually don't have a problem with making NPC's different to PC's, but I feel like the spell lists help make the distinction between casting types, and I like the idea).

Maybe I just want to play a system built around different kinds of mages instead of something that tries to do everything.

>>54107067
>That wizards can get anyway
I see what you're talking about, but it is a 9th level spell. In 5e at least that's 17th level. Typically most games never get that far, and if you've been playing a game long enough (or starting a game that high a level) then it's either a reward or you know what you're getting into.

The problem is that damage doesn't scale the way spells do. A wizard gets a spell that lets them alter reality to have a mountain become halved. The Martial can hit really really hard, but they still can't cleave a mountain in half because it's got DR 20 and has 300 HP and you can only hit a small portion of it. This is important because damage is based around combat and not story, otherwise you would need high level enemies to literally have thousands of HP to allow a high level martial to deal enough damage to be able to balance out with a high level wizard in out-of-combat situations "damage" potential.

>>54105144
Hows and whys are important about that but you don't ACTUALLY want to limit magic. Because if you do that without giving lore reasons then you'll get shit on for "putting arbitrary limitation on the game" and "making wizards worthless". That being said putting in-lore reasons is worse. It set's precedent. If the lore has a reason for it then the lore gets expanded upon, then there's an exception, then there's an out flow of "characters who are the same" as the exception, then this exception becomes a rule in later editions. Do you really want Wizzt running around?

>>54108756
>having your own stuff instead of renting it from the state
>shit

No-one is stopping you from traveling to Venezuela m8.

>>54108756
Perfection is highly fucking subjective.

File: bloodmage_concept___sigantium_by_2blind2draw-d86ruvg.jpg (220KB, 1024x1448px) Image search: [Google]

220KB, 1024x1448px

>>54104923
>>54105774
>>54104986

Gods forbid you have the player actually do some of the heavy Role Play lifting, wouldn't want them figuring out who their character is on their own. "Do magic" is in and of itself a pretty powerful identity. We have those in real life. They're called "People with PhDs".

Part of the problem here is we have an inherited mentality from 1e grognards who saw the wizard go from a next to worthless class that could do cool stuff on occasion to attaining their rightful place as the most powerful class in the game. They saw their muggle fighter get swiftly outpaced by the one class they knew they were just better than and they got butthurt about it and stayed that way for forty years. At this point hating wizards in this community is like hating "them damn niggers" in the south. It's an old nonsense grudge that got passed down through the generations by ignorant morons.

I maintain that the thing we should be doing is filtering magic to the other classes instead of pretending like there's something wrong with wizards. It isn't wizard's fault your punk ass fighter is a one-trick pony with no reason to be a player class.

I also think we should divide wizard up a bit. My two biggest gripes about 5e was no Universalist and no Elementalist.

>>54109888
>It isn't wizard's fault your punk ass fighter is a one-trick pony with no reason to be a player class.

Exactly. Swinging a sharp stick isn't heroic. It's for mooks keeping the peasants down while the wizard-king is away, which is why most heroic mythological figures were wizards.

>>54109514
That's why I was saying using the inbuilt restrictions (needing their spellbook, messing with sleep/study time thereby shorting their potential) to balance the wizard narratively offsets some of the degree to which a wizard can break open the game.
It keeps the wizard aware of his limits. A properly paranoid wizard who spends spell slots on Alarms and Energy Resistances to keep his spellbook from being stolen or incinerated, assorted scrys and counterscrys, and the normal suite of solutions to other shenanigans is a wizard who isn't putting 100% into munchkinry.

>>54106301
Not any more or less than the DM having to plan around the asshole who made the uber-tank or the guy who power-attacks with a greatsword. At least the DM can whittle down the wizard without having to stat up something that TPKs the party once it's target goes down.

>>54097323
They're different because enemies at different CRs have resistance or immunity to various things. When you start fighting demons you want cold damage, not fire.

>>54104288
Easily a +5 Adamantine wife. She got past his DR didn't she?

>>54108829
Ad Hominem more wage-slave. I'm a Libertarian Socialist.

>>54097170
Not exactly, if you use up a prepared spell in the vancian system, you can't use that spell any more.

>>54109536
no u
Capitalists are the ones in love with corruption and greed.

>>54109922
That's just uninformed... if you like wizards better thats cool, but there are way more knights and warriors. A comprehensive list would not support your hypothesis there

>>54097671
There's no reason there can't be. Combine it with the "magic points similar to a wound system" thing that was already posted in this thread. Getting overly tired penalizes your actions.

>>54110135

I'm pretty sure that and the former post were intentional shitposting.

File: 1496953053247.jpg (109KB, 750x750px) Image search: [Google]

109KB, 750x750px

>>54110135
That was sarcasm anon.

I thought it brutally obvious, but given the level of cultural illiteracy on display, I suppose I can't blame you for skepticism.

>>54104180
You had me hooked until the anime bit.

>>54104288
He did break her.

>>54104298
>hard limit
I don't think you know what this means.

It's a soft limit, you can always do more, it just becomes a massive fucking hassle and isn't worth it.

>>54110155
Lol, touché

>>54096975
Its not.

>>54097616
Barbarians of Lemuria, because they're rationed to shit and how many you have left can effect how you choose to cast spells.

>>54109922
Swinging a stick isn't heroic, but swinging a stick so well you can kill a dragon despite using a wooden stick is.
Swinging a stick quickly isn't heroic, but swinging a stick so quickly you strike 7 times in a single move is.
Throwing a spear isn't heroic, but throwing a spear with pinpoint accuracy beyond the horizon line is.

It would probably require a different system, but I think there's something to say about "Wizards are legendary people, Fighters make legends around them." in a "Fate/X" type way or in a way that makes fighters a special kind of artificer.. While the wizard is altering physics, your weapons/armour/body starts building a legacy through modifiers and titles. That sword you've been using? It becomes magic, because heroes have legendary swords, because it's a hero using them. Since you just hit level 5 that sword of yours is now a Sword of Goblin Slaying. When you hit 20 you can give it the mountaincleaver legend and have it not have any damage reduction against non-living creatures, and autocrit for x4/5/6 damage.

>>54096975
It's fine. But personally I prefer "cast as much as you want, but with consequences" approach.

>>54114161
Yes. This is exactly what I'm talking about. Give magic to the damn muggles.

>>54104010
No, stamina is stamina. There are several games with an explicit stamina stat which is separate from HP.

>>54115831

Not all things that transcend physical limits are magic. You can have a setting where that kind of supernal skill is entirely mundane within the metaphysics of the world.