Become a necromancer today! >"It's a living."

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>>54067502
No thanks.

> Become a diviner in 2 weeks, 3 days and 14 hours from now! See you there Francis.

>>54067502
Become a Rogue today!

>After three easy payments of 100 gold.

>>54067502
>The Bartender and Inkeep Association is now hiring!
>Must be a former adventurer or level 20
>Insurance covers adventurer-induced property damage*
*rules and regulations vary, consult your local legalmancer for details

>>54067689
>someone suggests a deviation from standard fantasy tropes
>throws a hissyfit

>>54068240
Maybe because that deviation is stupid, pointless, and almost as overdone as the original trope itself?

>>54068276
Not really. Necromancy is less about just death magic, and more of life magic.
If you go old school, most healing spells and resurrection spells were necromancy.

>>54068276
There are ways to have non-evil necromancy that aren't cliche edgy guy with misunderstood powers

>>54068320
>Necromancy is less about just death magic, and more of life magic.

The root of the fucking word proves that you're full of shit, and if you actually believe that it should be related to healing and life energy then you are ignorant of what words mean and don't know what you're talking about.
>>54068333
Yes. Absolutely. And yet nobody seems to do it and defaults to farming with zombies and running skeleton orphanages.

>>54067502
Become a necromancer today!

>"It makes it so much easier to raise a family!"

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>>54068320
>Not really. Necromancy is less about just death magic, and more of life magic.
>Necromancy
>life magic
>Necro - Mancy
>Death - Magic
>word means Death Magic
>must be life magic

>>54067689
>Don't use those parts that are just lying about which are literally fucking free and not being used by anyone to improve peoples lives!
>You have to throw trillions of gold pieces into extremely expensive golems which can't be produced at any reasonable rate so that only a tiny number of people can benefit from it.
>Also if you're trying to improve peoples lives in the most efficient way that makes you lazy!
Admit it.
Necromancers are the Libertarians of fantasy, in the free market of magic they win out and out.
So the fucking (((Gnomes))) have to regulate that shit and give them a bad rep so they can keep the plebians down.

>>54068492
You're not a true libertarian unless you're socialist

>>54068492
Man, if undead even mindless undead didn't arm themselves and form militaries for the singular purpose of destroying all life when left to their own devices then maybe they're allowable.

It's like saying let people use chemical weapons for pest extermination. Sure it works better, but fuck is it more dangerous than the job requires.

>>54068525
They only do in generic fantasy settings, besides a responsible necromancer would have safety precautions

>>54068386
>>54068457
>[The Complete Book of Necromancers] sorts spells into three color categories, each linked to a particular ethos:
>Black necromancy, encompassing spells that bring physical injury or spiritual annihilation, is associated with evil practitioners
>gray necromancy, to which the majority of necromantic spells belong, are appropriate for neutral wizards
>good wizards are drawn to white necromancy, with spells that restore life and fortify living bodies.

>>54068320
>>54068386
Y'all both befuddled, Necromancy's roots lie in people who speak to the dead. Whether it be talking to ghosts or ancestral spirits, it's the true root of necromancy. None of these evil alignment or raising the dead bullshit, the latter is more of Vodoun's schtick.

>>54068525
I blame Orcus. He created necromancy and holds monopoly over spells, and all new shit is made from his. Spells made by a fat chaotic evil fuck who killed his world will, of course, be shit.
That's why we need to break his monopoly. Make new necromancy from ground-up.

>>54068554
>They only do in generic fantasy settings
It's the standard for how undead operate in many published settings. If you want to change that sure, but if we get into 'in muh homebrew setting' then literally this entire argument is pointless.

>besides a responsible necromancer would have safety precautions
It's basically uses a live grenade to exterminate rabbits. Sure, you made sure to wear oven mitts, but it's still a live grenade.

>>54068568
The word "necromancy" is adapted from Late Latin necromantia, itself borrowed from post-Classical Greek νεkρομαντεία (nekromanteía), a compound of Ancient Greek νεkρός (nekrós), "dead body", and μαντεία (manteía), "divination by means of"

>>54068511
>You're not a true libertarian unless you're socialist
Now you stop that shit before you violate my NAP.
We know what you're up to you wily Marxist.

>>54068525
The way I see it and have always seen it is thus.
Fire is very, very useful.
It can also burn your god damned house down.
You treat it with respect, you don't let it get out of control, you don't give it any chance to become a danger.
Meanwhile you get people who go
>Hurr durr how can you want to use fire to improve the lives of people when beating cold iron into shape with a bit of wood is so much safer? Also eating raw meat isn't so bad, sure dozens of us die from worms each year but at least no ones house burns down. Why would you want fire in the camp when it might burn us all!

>>54068320
>necromancy
>Necro coming from the Greek word Nekros meaning corpse
Go fuck yourself with your shitty ass fan wank that compels you to project and see everything in your own way.

>>54068559
>good wizards are drawn to white necromancy, with spells that restore life and fortify living bodies.
Kurtz can eat my fucking dick. That's not necromancy. It's healing. You can have a healing domain or whatever.

>>54068612
Libertarian socialism predates capitalist libertarianism, it's not really meant as a serious criticism though, I am just fucking with you

>>54068612
The dangers don't outweigh the benefits. If the fire is explicetly malicious and will attempt to end all life and if left unchecked will rip a hole in reality to let powerful extra planar super undead through then it isn't worth it.

There are cheap ass constructs you can make. Both require level 5. Heck now in some systems you can start making constructs at level 1 for copper on the gold piece.

>>54068612
>Necromancer gets bullied by other magic users
>retaliates by raising the local cemetery skellingtons to give the bullies atomic wedgies

>Old-school Necromancer gets bullied by other magic users
>retaliates by throwing bones and calling their ancestors' voice down
>"Your late father doth declare thee a mistake of his loins!"

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>>54068594
>It's basically uses a live grenade to exterminate rabbits. Sure, you made sure to wear oven mitts, but it's still a live grenade.
Having a labor force that never has to stop is exterminating rabbits is it?
Literally building roads from one end of a nation to another through the worst conditions in months rather than years is rabbits?
Totally expendable workmen who can go into the deepest, most uncomfortable mines (A job that historically was The Worst Job) to bring up ore 24/7, 365, with nary a fuck given about flood, firedamp, needing good ventilation or logistics beyond 'So we need to get all this dank ore down from our mine up in the most shithole mountain in the Kingdoms where nothing else can survive' is rabbits?
God damned soldiers who fight longer and harder than any man, don't need to be trained, don't have any logistical problems and who the death of won't leave widows, orphans and children is fucking rabbits mate?
What the fuck are you smoking? Because I want some.
Like it or not Necromancy is a school of magic that's the equivalent in terms of life saving and suffering ending potential of a universal cancer cure.

>>54068649
I know, I'm just fucking back.

>>54068662
Totally agree in those circumstances where you can make cheapo robots that it isn't even worth it. If it's literally copper pieces to make a construct them party hard.

>>54068662
>DnD

>>54067502
Necromancer's a good job, mate. Out of doors. I guarantee you'll not go hungry.

>>54068703
>You're only allowed to use DnD as an example if it proves me right, otherwise I will mock you for it :^)

I see we've abandoned all pretense in this argument.

>>54068698
Semi-related, does it bother you when in a setting a civilization is basically a marry sue? Like it's fine if eclipse phases authors are into anarcho-socialism but if you believe a form of government is perfect it shouldn't exist in your setting

>>54068748
There are multiple people arguing against you, I never cited DnD

>>54068703
Ok what system do you want to talk about instead for necromancy stuff?

>>54068789
>respond to a post that all it says is "D&D"
>someone else says "that isn't me, *I* never said D&D"
why did you even reply to that post then?

>>54068793
I mean I am more interested in necromancy for worldbuilding but I also like golarion

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>>54068770
Just a disclaimer I'm not actually a libertarian.
But I think any civilization being too good to be true is retarded in any setting because it removes all the conflict and isn't realistic. Unless the government has total control (In which case fair enough) or no control (In which case it wouldn't be a nice place to live) then there's always going to be assholes that work around the system.

That and it's pushing a political point which always rumbles my bumbles. I'm not a fan of Eclipse Phase specifically because they've gone out their way to make anarcho-socialism come off as Da Best and ignored all the interesting plotlines that could come out of the fact that humans aren't perfect.
That and Transhuman Space took things further along the logical path for 'oh shit this is kinda fucked up'

Basically any Mary Sue civilization in any game only exists by ignoring the most vital fulcrum of story telling, that being that people are human.
Wonderfully and gloriously and irrationally and selfishly human.
Doesn't mean you can't include things you love in your setting.
But you have to pick at them just as hard as anything else.

>>54068698
>the cure for cancer is injecting a bigger cancer
>these desecrated corpses puppeted by eternally suffering souls enslaved with demonic energy are morally neutral meat golems, honest!

This is why necromancers should be executed on sight, like they were in the stories that inspired D&D, and often in 2e fluff.

>>54068815
Read further back in the chain

>>54068930
>Taking obvious propaganda at face value

Bet you're an asshole who argues for killing all who ping evil on sight.

>>54068930
>Hundreds of people should die of black lung just so that I don't have to spend an extra 40 years stuck on this mortal plane in a bit of a shit situation before going on to my eternal reward of getting my dick sucked by angels, waah!
Three things.
Demonic =/= Necromantic.
Negative Energy isn't evil in and of itself.
And if you think others should die a long, drawn out death of the black lung just so you can fuck off to eternal paradise a few years quicker then you're a bit of a selfish cunt.
Even in settings where you end up trapped in your own meat puppet that is.
Wouldn't force you since hey everyone has the right to be a selfish cunt, but going
>Anyone that tries it should also be executed
Is the fire argument
>>54068612

Can you play a necromancer in 5e adventurers league? I want to play in an evil campaign so I can be a necromancer but with less edgy shit. I accommodate my groups retard character concept constantly when I forever GM but the one time I get to play and want to run a necromancer I get roadblocks at every turn, the GM changed his homebrew to fuck me over and the other party members attacks me. Fucking cocksuckers.

>>54069020
>Negative Energy isn't evil in and of itself.
Yes it is. It absolutely is. It's quite literally anti-life.

>>54069072
Life doesn't equal good, that and I'm pretty sure there is some weird race in an old supplement that was both not evil and negative energy based

>>54069111
>Life doesn't equal good
In the D&D cosmology, yes, yes it does. Things are very black and white here.

>>54069164
DnD is multiple different settings you're going to need to name one, that and I am pretty sure there are good undead like those elvish ones

>>54069072
>Negative Energy
>Titles The Void
>Sphere Inner Sphere
>Alignment Unaligned
>Unaligned.
More importantly, life in and of itself isn't good.

>>54069164
Is a serial rapist good aligned just because he's fulla that positive energy?
Or a Drow?
How about Owlbears, those fuckers are full of positive energy.
Know what else is full of life, animation and explosive growth?
Cancer. Big ass tumours. See Ragnorra for proof of that.

Negative energy is entropy, it is an ending.
That isn't wrong. All things come to an end Senpai.
It isn't necessarily cruel, it isn't necessarily bad and it most certainly is as natural as living.

>>54069199
Eberron has the unliving and Balenorns are a thing in most settings.

>>54069208
99.9% of undead are evil. Also lets say we're talking about Golarion. Undead being around causes other corpses to start spontaneously rising from the dead. If left to it they eventually rip a hole in reality and let extra planar undead through. Necromancy causes the unquiet dead to happen near it.

>>54069262
Right, if we're talking Golarion then evil undead actually make sense.
Not because undead are intrinstically evil but because the first undead that defined what all other undead are since, the Archetypical Undead.
Is a Cunt.
A massive, massive, selfish, evil, greedy Cunt.
Basically you've got the Cunt goddess of being a Cunt who makes sure that anyone who follows her path must also be a Cunt.

There are exceptions still though
>Burning Crusader
>A few mentioned Liches
>Fair few mummies early on
>The Burning Child
ect, ect. Which still goes to show there are exceptions and thus hope for the undead as a concept beyond just Urgathoa and her tyranny.

>>54068636
>Harm kills living cells of the body

Gee nigger, can't exactly jack up retard's metabolism to bring em back, or heal the foot long gash or internal bleeding, because it'd burn his bones out to the point of making em hollow so what do I do?

OH I KNOW, ILL FUCKING REVIVE HIS DEAD TISSUE YOU LITERAL MANCHILD.

Necromancy historically, literally has all been about GRANTING LIFE. God's of death typically when not associated with males or judgement have been female, who also represented fertility, because to give life where there is none was associated with birth.

Even in the entamology of it being negative is flat out wrong. Taken literal it's literally Prophet OF the DEAD, NOT of DEATH.

>>54069262
Sorry, I meant glorantha, also I don't see why the majority of undead being evil precludes the ethical use of necromancy

>>54069350
Because of the fact that you using it means that animal corpses around everything down to insects, may raise and start an undead uprising. There is no safe way to use it.

>>54068457
What makes you think mancy means magic?

>>54069377
Depends on setting

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Absolutely depends on the setting. Can the undead have sapience? Can they choose not to be evil? Then your necromancer can actually be the greatest good ever.

The necromancer(zombie) in this image can, if they choose, just travel the world raising the dead and granting immortality to everyone.

There is more to necromancy than fucking making undead you ignorant stupid fucks. Just went through PFs database of spells, 5 or so spells out of 204 necromancy spells deal with the creation or maintenance of undead.

And undead are evil because they are an abomination of unlife, fueled by malicious and corrupt spirits of hunger and death stuck into corpses. Just having them around causes the material plane to be slowly ripped apart from the plane of anti life, creating more undead, causing hauntings, withering crops, causing stillbirths and deformities, and a whole bunch of other awful shit for animals, plants, and people.

It's like having a walking fuel rod from a nuclear reactor, it's spreading dangerous energies inimical to life everywhere, and if you're not extraordinarily careful, it can get loose and kill a fuckton of people.

Its not a robot made of flesh, its a spirit of death shackled to a corpse, waiting for you to make a mistake, and then it can feed its unnatural hunger that it can never sate.

>>54069334
It not granting life. Just stop with your fan fiction already. It's cringe as fuck.

>>54070729
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Heal
>Heal was a conjuration, evocation, or necromancy spell that cured many ailments and restored health.

>2nd Edition
>Healing

>1st Edition
>Necromancy

You're cringe as fuck.
Why wouldn't healing be part of the school that's all to do with the body and, and I fucking quote.
>manipulate the power of death, unlife, and the life force
But no, in 3e some pleb decided that it had to be part of conjuration because Reasons.
Reasons being the brand of lead paint they were drinking at the time.
>Hurp, can't have any benevolent spells in necromancy, durp, better change it to the summoning school instead.

>>54070988
I'm just going to chime in here, nobody says that all of necromancy must be evil, 100% of the time. We are talking about raising the dead, the thing that necromancers tend to do, and why they learn necromancy in the first place.
Because people say "necromancer", they don't typically mean a guy who casts, say, Speak with Dead or Cure Wounds. They're talking about people who raise corpses.

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>>54067502
Dying ain't much of a livin' boy

>>54067502
>"Hm... I could learn to read the strings of fate and, with time, to weave them. The past, present and future as my playthings? Nah."
>"Or I could harness the power of the raw elements, to freeze and burn all who stand in my way. Power overwhelming? Nope."
>"What about delving into the secrets of conjuration, to always have myriads of creatures at my beck and call, to protect and serve me, and learn how to manipulate space and time? Fuck that."
>"I wanna be that creepy guy with no friends who always has to run from the law and who has to dig up stinking cadavers for company. Yeah. That's who I'll be."

>>54070988
>Fanfiction
lame

>>54068511
that's like saying you can't be a socialist with being a marxist.
tons of schools of thought between those two. no?

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>>54068929
Basically that second point is my whole problem with it. I'm fine with handwaving weird societies if it's for the sake of the plot to happen, but if it's to prove a point I hate it.
In your own setting you're god. You can make anything happen or not happen. You can prove any ideology or metaphysics to be true. You merely have to write your characters all agreeing on it.
I hate it. I feels like a poorly constructed argument that I'm not allowed to respond to.

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>>54072983
The dark arts are supposed to be easier right? That's what's so seductive about them.
Not such a big step from saying they're too lazy to do the more respected kinds of magic to saying they're not able to.
The elite have always looked down on the dealngs of the lower class. It sounds sort of believable that necromancy could be one of those lower class professions, looked down upon because it can be achieved without studying for decades in an expensive wizard's college. I'm sure there'd be plenty of reasons they'd be able to come up with as to why these lower class dealings are actually distasteful and harmfull, without ever actually utter the words "poor people".

>>54068386
The ancestral tombs in Morrowind do. Family members are resurrected and serve as guardians for the family tomb. It's necromancy, but good because it's done to stop tomb robbers and necromancers from looting and defiling the tomb, and the resurrected guardians do it voluntarily. Standard nercomancy is strictly prohibited and hunted down mercilessly.

>>54067689
I never understand people who insist on good necros all the time. It is not like being neutral or evil necromancer automatically makes you hostile to everything, have zero charisma and dead fish personality. And it is not like people oppose necromancers just because they belive guy is aiming for world domination, resurrecting someone dead grandma so she could work in factory is more jarring.
Not to mention that sending waves of corpses and incorporeal abominations upon your enemies is the best appeal of necromancy and great fun.

>>54067502
>tfw having a whole nation of Goodboy Necromancers
>tfw /tg/ autists can't do anything but complain.

>>54067502
Resurrected the king of some shit-hole empire and made him order his servants to give me the treasury. This derailed the entire plot and we have not gotten back together since.

>>54074050
I'd say i told you so during the undead uprising but you know.
Golems masterrace baby

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I came here to post this.

>>54067502
the only good necromancers are ones that hang out with ghosts instead of gross smelly dead people

>>54067502
There's always good necromancers, but never good demon summoners. Why is that?

>>54074652
A corpse is just a corpse, their evilness is usually based on what magic or spirit is propping them up - demons are more often seen as being literally made of evil.

But even then you've got Solomon and others who bind and force demons to do things

>>54073800
I could see that as an aspect to it, might be quite a cool thing - adding class aspects (in the more conventional sense) to magical politics.

Sorcerers have the oldest blue-blood deal going on, while Wizards have had to study and maintain a library at considerable expense, Warlocks have a nouveau riche thing, holy magic users are somewhere in between but have considerable prestige as gods are a lot more selective than daemons, Alchemists are basically high-end magical craftsmen, Shamans and Druids are seen as savage but fairly noble, etc.

All this is underpinned by the fact that they are all chucking around magical firepower to some degree or another (and there may or may not be other (D&D) classes intermingling there as well), so things may tend towards social battles, lest things turn to actual battles and that warlock you insulted for getting his powers via a summoned daemon burns down half the city with hellfire in a sacrifice/rage.

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>>54067689
>"Just make Golems"
>"Just enslave the spirits of a sentient elemental, and trap it in a body that's a living weapon"
>"Just ignore the fact literally every single golem inevitably goes berserk and needs to be destroyed before it causes too much damage"

>>54074995
Summoning demons used to be a fairly run of the mill thing to do for wizards. It's only with recent dnd settings with equally powerful and easy to summon elementals/djin/fae/angels/whatever that it's become more associated with evil. It used to just be dangerous, but potentially highly useful.

>>54068240
>has a believably in-character response that fits the vast majority of fantasy iconography in a conversation that is obviously being had for funs sake
>neo-/tg/ cries, knee-jerks, and flings shit

This board has seriously gone down hill. I remember when the autistic stupidity was kept in the edition wars threads.

>>54075544
>the vast majority of fantasy
>Everything is the same and should stay the same
>New ideas are bad!
New /tg/ really is shit.

>>54075379
Yeah, that's true enough.
Wonder why the shift towards that being seen as evil, maybe the rise in Clerics and Inquisitors perhaps?
(did the original D&D have it as evil? I'd would find it kind of hilarious if the moral panic over "muh satanic games" caused that shift)

Though spirits have long been an option, and I think Djinn fall into that as well

>>54075641
You're welcome to voice new content. Even shit content.
You're allowed, but not welcome, to shit on quality content.

>>54067502
Become an Italian necromancer today!

>"It's-a living!"

>>54068666
I like this. Let's do more this

>>54076557
> I'd would find it kind of hilarious if the moral panic over "muh satanic games" caused that shift)
It's this and the ability to summon them becoming easier that made them have to effectively "ban" it by only letting capital E evil characters use it

>>54077209
Even 1st edition AD&D, published well before the satanic panic, pointed out that Raise Dead is only frequently used by evil characters.

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Either way you look at it, Necromancy isn't inherently evil.

If we're using the 3.5 viewpoint of "Good and Evil are objective forces like heat and entropy," then the argument quickly destroys itself.
In this form of morality, Good and Evil are entirely ends-based; it'd be perfectly okay to genocide Goblins by the millions, because Goblins are Evil and brutally slaughtering Goblins creates a quantifiable net loss in Evil present in the world.
With this frame of reference in mind, it's clear that Necromancy is Evil, but not evil. Remember, Evil and evil are two different things; the former is an intrinsic force of the universe, and the other is a human social fabrication.
Necromancy spells have the Evil descriptor because they literally create Negative Energy. But, not all Necromancy spells have to be used for evil, even if they are all Evil.

And, of course, if you're using the standard viewpoint that evil is based on actions and not on physical Negative Energy, then it's just the fire argument.

>>54068929
That logic is positively horrendous, unless he's talking about virtue in harmless small animals.

What's a decent name for a necromancer?

>>54077676
I would say that objective good and evil makes social constructs meaningless, that being said good aligned undead are literally canon in the DnD so people complaining about good necromancy are kind of missing the point

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>>54075226
>"Just enslave the spirits of a sentient elemental
>they go berzerk
the fuck are you on about?
they are literally automatons, unless you put a piece of paper or give them direct commands they are incapable of doing anything.
thus the name, from yiddish means helpless.
there is only a magical animating vitae, no problems with spirit lingerings.
Undead however are capable of complex tasks. Without orders they are known to revert to base animal tenancies.

>muh elementals
you don't see them complaining when you make fucking houses out of rock, wood, and mud and what have you?
clearly they aren't in the components.
Perhaps flesh golems, but that's a weird nother matter.
When you raise the dead you are filling a void in a god damned husk, somethings going to get crossed in that fucking brain.

stop being a fag and work on golems, at least i can smell of something other than embalming fluids and rot all day long.
Fucking necrofags

>>54079567
>objective good and evil makes social constructs meaningless
I wouldn't say so.

To my great shame, I'm actually a fan of how 3.5 handled/implied the allignments; they were less about how you acted, and more about which fundamental part of reality you've sworn alegiance too. A fire and brimstone inquisitor who rules with an iron fist is still Lawful Good, even if he acts evil and chaotically. Similarly, an honorable Demon samurai who only fights fair is Chaotic Evil, no matter how lawful or neutral he really is.

>>54079688
You're forgetting about the canon good aligned undead

>>54079704
The thing is is that the inquisitor is right, like objectivity right because the universe itself supports his actions as good, to be evil in a world where morality is objective is to be wrong

>>54068644
but an death cleric can still use healing
fucking double standard

>>54079768
Not my concern really.
Golems are the shit and necrofags need to stop.
>but but it's just like golem making
fuck you, golem raising takes work

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>>54074367
god damn you op i didn't ask for these feels

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>>54079688
Let me tell you in excruciating detail why every single thing you just said was wrong.

As a kike, with a grandfather who literally studies Kabbalah, I've grown up hearing the original version of the golem myth, undiluted by fantasy tropes. Lots of things people like to forget about that myth, like how the golem was sentient, intelligent, had magic powers, and even fell in love (according to some versions).

People also always like to forget about the ending, also: the Golem went berserk and Rabbi Loew had to destroy it.

I don't know where you heard that Golem is 'helpless' in Yiddish. The Yiddish word for helpless is 'ofentik;' Golem comes from the Hebrew word meaning "raw [substance]," which can be found once, in the bible (psalms 139:16).

---

As for the Elemental stuff, keep in mind that there are exactly 2 fantasy settings that go in detail on a golem's creation, and both of them are from DnD: Forgotten Realms and Eberron. Eberron in particularly goes really into detail on the construction of golems, how elementals are summoned from the inner planes and bound to physical boedies, and how this process incredibly painful for the innocent and sentient elemental, and is often the cause for the elemental going berserk.

Compare this to Undead, who are so fucking tame when they're controlled, it's almost scary.

here is a valid question, necromancy is seen as evil because it goes against natures design of life to death to rebirth in other things (Dirt).
But healing is among holy magics which ALSO go against nature by circumventing a mortal wound, and holy magics can literally bring people back from the dead... and is ok??? I fail to see the logic, undead can act on their own accord doing complex tasks. good and evil are both sides of a coin that toys with life and death, saying one is bad for toying with it while the other does the same is just wrong.

>>54079977
>Let me tell you in excruciating detail why every single thing you just said was wrong.
fuck.
well can't argue with that.

>>54080043
Because most undead in DnD are tied to objectively evil forces, there are undead that aren't though, just fluff your necomancer as using the same power source that baelorns work off of, alternatively just as fiend pact warlocks can be good, necromancers drawing from an evil power source can be as well

>>54079819
Who gives a flying fuck about the universe's morality? The morality of the universe is the state of nature, where might makes right and lives are nasty, brutish, and short.
Nature is a terrible moral guide, and I choose to live under _real_ morals.

>>54080382
That works in real life but it doesn't work in a fantasy setting, nature is without any inherent moral value in the real world but in a fantasy setting it's possible that god, the universe, or something else creates a system of morality that is objectively true

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Even if necromancy doesn't actively destroy the land around it or torture the souls of whatever's put inside it, isn't it evil by the metric of ethics?

Forcing someone's corpse to rise up and perform manual labor is very much working against their inherent dignity, and even setting up a system where people will sign contracts to sell off their dead loved ones to your control is so open to exploitation and rife with potential loopholes that you might as well just smash open coffins in the dead of night and leave a handful of coins in the grave as payment.

Effectively, the only way to play an ethical necromancer is to contact the spirits of the dead, ensure they want to be raised, inform them of all the risks and benefits of raising versus simple resurrection, and keep them working under you as well-paid and cared-for as you would a hireling or other mortal worker.

But then again the only people who would ever consider leaving the afterlife to go do hard labor for some asshole are the people who have gone to absolutely horrible afterlives for being sinful assholes, so HAHAHA WHOOPS.

>>54080686
The undead could be willing to work for altruistic reasons that and in depending on the setting you could just be animating the body

>>54080497
"Objectively true" doesn't matter. Nature in fantasy and real life are both objectively true. That still doesn't mean that it's a good system. As it stands, the system of our universe and the system of DnD's universe both suck.

>>54080943
For the sake of explaining what I am getting at suppose the Christian god exists, if you disagreed with him about morality you would be wrong as god created the universe, you, and your ability to think morally, god is objectively right, to disagree with him would be wrong , for reference I am not religious but I would imagine that objective morality in fantasy settings would work the same way, nature in reality sucks because nothing justifies it as a moral system, in a fantasy setting the meaning is baked in

>>54081036
Ah, I see. The difference is that I'm looking at this from a Jewish point of view, not a Christian point of view.

One of the big things in Judaism that was never really carried over by Christianity is the important of Human free will, and how it is often a force for good. There are MANY cases in Judaism where it is acceptable (if not the correct action) to disagree with God.

A perfect example of this is the binding of Isaac. The binding of Isaac was a test for Abraham by God, to see if he was following God blindly, or if he was following God out of the same sense of justice that made him discover monotheism in the first place. Despite popular belief, Abraham failed God's test, because he was willing to sacrifice Isaac right up to the final moment. This is why God never speaks to Abraham again in the bible, and from that point on only speaks to Isaac.

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>>54080686
Shit man, even here, on Earth where the dead aren't useful at all we can't agree what is the right way to treat them, with cultures around the world doing all sorts of weird shit that you'd consider "violating the dignity of the dead."

In a place where you could actually get useful labor out of corpses? Shit, you could come up with thousands of justifications for it, humans are very good at that.

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>>54069482

-mancy - "divination by means of"
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=-mancy

necromancy - "divination by communication with the dead,"
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=necromancy

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>>54068457
>>54069482

>>54068457
>He thinks Life and Death are two inherently different things.

>>54069334
historically necromancy was about using the dead to speak to and make prophecies and portents and omens. you don't actually know jack shit about where necromancy comes from. it had nothing to do with restoring life to the dead. also your homebrew is ass.

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What if Necromancers just raised things like chimps or make flesh constructs from animals. No ones soul would have to be pulled from the afterlife.

>>54081704
>Undead gorillas used for construction of atudy/lab. Undead wolves keep watch. Undead animals for more odd jobs.
Sounds interesting.

>>54067689
Golems are too fucking expensive and time consuming to make. Corpses are a dime a dozen.

>>54081704
Guard dogs might be okay, but there tends to be difficulties with getting non-sentient undead to do what you want (which is why using a human skeleton and a human spirit is such a common shortcut), and even assuming they can be instructed (though its probably more like programmed) you've still got the issue of a non-human body - aspects of dexterity may be lost.

Still doesn't help against the "bleeds negative energy into the world around it" issue that usually crops up though.

>>54082689
And that's one of several reasons necromancers are looked down upon, the materials are pretty common - add what >>54073800 says, it's easier too, being a dark art, and hey necromancers are the "lazy untalented poorfags" of the magic world

>>54069976
>Don't spend any points on worthless immortality.
>25 Large 4 topping pizzas from Papa Johns.

I'd call this was a win.

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>>54083788
This man's a proper wizard, he knows the importance of big dinners

personally I prefer Dominoes, though it might just be habit. Better than Pizza Hut though

>>54069036
Yeah, you can. Lawful Evil is the only allowable Evil alignment in AL, and you should also be aware you won't get skeletal minions or whatever til you hit tier 2. Also, the upcoming season (I think August) set in Chult will deal heavily in necromancy, so have fun!

>>54067502
my latest character is a necromancer

perpetually flanked by skelly bodyguards, he seeks to unravel the secrets of life and death
he hates people who run away at the sight of his skellies, and so doubles his PR efforts, making every attempt to make the exploits of the party he is with known far and wide, if only so that he isnt stopped at every library

despite his simple goal of sitting down and reading and experimenting, he cant stand anyone trying to dominate the world, and reluctantly puts away whatever he is reading to join his friends in stopping evil

he is quite aware of how most necromancers are perceived, and while he hates contributing to the stereotype, he isnt above scaring small kids

over time, people have started to see his skeletons, usually garb in bright blue outfits and wearing parade hats, as a sign of salvation, since many a would-be victim was saved from more common evil skeletons by his own skellies

>>54067689
Oh, come on.
Zombies and sentient undeads eating living beings is a simple mistake in the spell formulas.
You can call it 'dark magic that's only passed on from master to apprentice', I call it 'clerical transcription error'.
The second half of the formula is MISSING, the part that opens a trickling portal to the positive energy dimension and lets the undeads be self-sustaining... and also completely immune to clerics turning them.
Now necromancers have to redo the work from scratch, but as soon as someone hits the jackpot and makes less hungry (but also resistant to turning) undead, the so-called good churches go on a fucking crusade to stop them!

It's all a powerplay from the aggregated churches, if it wasn't for them we'd live in a golden age, powered by unstoppable, docile zombies - but who'd pay their tithes then?

>>54084660
Proofs?

Do you have ANY examples of these "perfect" undead and this formula existing, or are they just wishful thinking and flimsy justification from a buttmad necromancer who got his abominations burned by the righteous forces of Good?
I think we all know the answer

Also I notice you say only LESS hungry... so what you're saying is that these """non-evil"" (and conveniently resistant to turning) still hunger for the flesh of the living? Just a little less than the ever-hungry zombies that plague our lands.

Honestly I do like the idea of perfect (possible mummy-like) undead in a setting where most are evil generic undead as a sort of magical "lost technology", and those that do exist being very rare, ancient and nigh unstoppable - possibly taking inspiration from Shrike from Mortal Engines, if you've read that

>>54068405
Underrated post.

>>54081132
And I thought that Jews held obedience to God sacrosanct, since his word is Law.
Abraham failed because he wasn't a good lawyer. OFC your interpretation is far more charitable

>>54085193
Have you not heard the old joke about rabbis having an argument, and when God himself intervenes on one side they (in some cases just the stubborn rabbi, in others all of the rabbis) tell him it's the Law they're arguing over, his words don't change that?

>>54068333
My necromancer is a cheery fucker who just wants to help people with the magic he knows

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>>54068559
>find people on the verge of death
>heal them, but only partly so they will survive but have severe issues / ongoing chronic pains / etc
>not like mending them wrong maliciously, just doing a half assed job
>still aligned good

>>54085193
Jews hold obedience to God's 613 commandments, not (necessarily) to God himself. Obviously God can make new commandments, but the age of prophets ended a long time ago, so...

This obedience to the Law, by the way, is not because of any particular Truth or Righteousness inherent in the commandments. It's not more righteous to eat chicken than it is to eat pork, it's just something we do because it's one of the tenets of the Covenant (which has already paid us in dividend).

>>54084911
Zombies don't eat he flesh of the living for its calorific content. Neither do Vampires gain calorific content from the blood they drink.
Zombies, and other undead, are sustained by the power of the Negative Energy Plane. The consuming of the living in some way (either through blood or flesh) is a "symbolic" consumption, which serves the purpose of renewing their connection to the Negative Energy Plane.

Of course, controlled undead feel no hunger, because they are not actually connected to the Negative Energy Plane anymore: they're connected to the necromancer who raised them. This is why zombies disintegrate when their necromancer is killed.

Interestingly, Mind Flayers act similar to zombies and vampires in their consumption. Mind Flayers are sustained by their own psychic powers, which are renewed by the "symbolic" act of eating a brain.

>>54085780
>they're connected to the necromancer who raised them
Is the necromancer in turn then connected to the Negative Energy Plane? If he is, should he himself drink blood and eat people to keep his undead going? If he isn't, then how are his undead automatically evil if they're not even tenuously connected to the Negative Plane anymore?

>>54085780
>Of course, controlled undead feel no hunger,
Yet they consume anyway!

Necromancers either lack the control they claim to have, or are using their zombies to attack good people with wilful maliciousness.

And even if these necromancers are sustaining these abominations as you claim, where are THEY getting the energy to do so?
Oh right they're channelling the ENTIRELY EVIL plane of Negative Energy!!!

>>54069072
Yea and the positive energy plane kills people for spending time in it.

Meanwhile an undead can chill in the negative energy plane forever.

Makes you think doesn't it?

>>54067502

Good Necromancer being a possible thing requires alterations to the basic setting and the way magic and undead work.

If you're using the standard tropes where Undead are evil, soulless abominations crafted from corpses animated with dark powers, that hate the living and when not controlled will seek out and attack people, then Good Necromancers are not possible.

In particular I see this one a lot
>but I use them to do good!

There's a bunch of reasons why this excuse is invalid.
1) if you die, your undead are free to do all the murdering your control was stopping them from doing.
2) You could have spent the same amount of time studying anything other than dark magic in order to do good.
3) You spend your days desecrating the dead, something that is forbidden in most cultures IRL, and in a setting where Undead is a real thing, I imagine it is forbidden in ALL cultures.

>>54085810
Yes. No, he can connect to the NEP with his magic alone.
Ever noticed how Liches never eat? That's because they have their own arcane magic to sustain them.

>>54085876
A Zombie commanded to stand still will stay unmoving until it dies, it's master dies, or until the end of time, whichever comes sooner. You've obviously met some truly incompetent necromancers, or you are lying to support your point.

>>54085876
>Yet they consume anyway!
Sometimes.
And sometimes, the brazier falls over and a building burns to the ground. Doesn't make Fire itself evil, just dangerous in the hands of people who don't know what they're doing. And it's a hell of a lot harder to know what you're doing when all the knowledge those who came before you keeps on getting confiscated and/or destroyed.

>>54085885
Honestly having the negative energy plane pop in would be a good thing for society.
>neutral aligned
>humans can chill in it, tomb tainted soul
>kills all the living enemies
>effectively makes all the people who are undead, or tomb tainted immortal.
>Undead can be controlled, and so a cleric could run around rebukeing undead to work for him.


Perfect utopia. Make all the clerics followers of a neutral or good aligned god, such as evening glory, and you've go a good society

>>54068525
> A party of murderhobos assaults a necromancer with a zombie horde
> Hurr Durr zombies are a weapon

If necromancer raises zombies, he's either a farmer or engine dealer.
Shit, they were designed to be slow and weak so if they go feral, even child could take them out by throwing stones or using torch on a stick.
When necromancer wants to fuck shit up we use flesh golems, wraiths and vampires.

>>54086087
For sure Wraiths, level drain is ridiculous, one wraith can make an entire community into wraith

>>54086133
Problem there is infighting. The Wraiths of the recently dead tend to go after people who killed them. And some of the nastier ones don't stop there, going after the ones who've wronged them in life.
So depending on how tight-knit the community is you get this macabre mudfight in the middle of town square. Assuming it doesn't just go after you yourself.

Nice thing is, it leaves corpse you can work with, at worst at least use the parts to repair an existing Zombie or Ghoul. Or Augment if you go for that sort of thing.

>>54086004
time to play a necromancer who scolds those who improperly use it

like a proper gun nut, he is obsessed with summoning undead and using them for every ache and pain in his life, but he is incredibly intolerant to people who treat them like toys or would use them to harm another human

he also endlessy campaigns and lobbies for his right to bear skeletons

people used to hate him, but after saving the world a few times with his skellies, he became skub rather than hate, with people saying that "as long as he uses skeletons he is evil" and the other side claiming "he saved the world with skeletons, he is a hero"
>>54085979
how many lives must a necromancer rescued, or how many times must the world be saves before he becomes good?

if he sets up an orphanage and legitimately puts his life on the line for others without expecting anything in return is he still evil?

>>54086271
YES, HE'S EVIL, BECAUSE HE USES SPELLS WITH EVIL TAG! THAT'S HOW IT IS, STOP TRYING TO TAKE YOUR IRL ETHICS IN THE WORLD OF JOLLY AUTISMO!

>>54080686
You can get consent before person dies.
> Not wanting your descendants have an undead servant after you die, forcing them to spend 3 premium zombifications worth money on funeral instead.
> Saying that necromancers are immoral

>>54086354
>autistic knights invade wizards realm for the crime of necromancy
>the local villagers see him often, usually sharing his books with children and teaching children mathematics and grammar
>is frequently consulted for his vast knowledge not just of the arcane, but also for his expert knowledge of anatomy and physiology, letting him heal without the use of magic
>skeletons were only seen when they helped defend the town from bandits, who were then raised as more skeletons
>skeletons are occasionally seen scaring small children or dragging supplies into the castle
>knights charge the castle anyways, believing the villagers are being bamboozled
>gates are unbarred and there are welcomed by servants
>the knights assault the great hall weapons at the ready
>the necromancer, who had been having dinner with his former party members, fighter, ranger, bard, and barbarian, is enraged that people would dare use violence at a sacred occasion
>then next day, armored skeletons are seen cleaning the front yard
>all this could have been avoided if the knights read the sign at the village gate "come see one of the men who slew the evil lich, 2cp to pose with, 2sp to have portrait with"

>>54086271
>playing a ne/k/romancer
Stealing this idea

3.5 gurus: how accurate is this? It's been my go-to on necro morality

https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Tome_of_Necromancy_(DnD_Other)/Morality

(I forgot where the big pdf is)

>>54086591
The Tome Material home brew is often... Imbelished. It acts at the same time as if it were detailing established lore, and creating new/better lore; it never indicates just what it's doing.
That being said, the new lore that it does create is pretty good, very well written, and (almost) never clashes with other established lore.

The section you posted is pretty accurate.

>>54079381
Gorgorth

>>54079381
Gorgorth

>>54079381
Gorgoth.

>>54083788
Then you would need the immortality.

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>>54086354
>Pro-Skely people with picket signs saying "Evil, not evil!!"

>>54091300
>slaymate_foraging.jpg