How do you justify a generic, traditional feudal society in a

>>54048101
They believe that magic is weird, easy and lazy at the best of times, outright evil and corrupting at the worst. Better just stay away from that shit.

It's not hard.

>>54048101
Because magic just isn't that powerful compared to other vocations.

>>54048125
>They believe that magic is weird, easy and lazy at the best of times, outright evil and corrupting at the worst.
>They believe
They will believe what they have always been told to believe by those in power. And since everyone else is walking around with stone axes, the guys that throw actual fireballs are the ones in power.

It doesn't work.

>>54048101
Even IRL there was a caste of people who could divine weather or commune with the gods which is a form of "magic" and these people had the role of sages or advisors to the royal court.

So, maybe the practitioners are benign and have no interest in power grabs/being wealthy or they're a small enough minority there are checks and balances against them.

>>54048101
Because magic users are essentially unicorns and a magic-less populous will always prefer someone like them on top.

>>54048101
They did, then they were killed out of fear and paranoia (or maybe they really were brutal assholes), and now a pervasive stigma of magic users in leadership roles exists that keeps most from rising higher than advisory positions

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>>54048101
Magic takes time, preparation and materials, and often requires more than one person to perform. Mages rely on other people in society to keep them safe, gather materials for them and participate in rituals. As a result, they usually take a supportive role behind the chief strongman whose principle job is protecting everyone in society including the mages.

>>54048190
>Even IRL there was a caste of people who could divine weather or commune with the gods which is a form of "magic" and these people had the role of sages or advisors to the royal court.
They had this role because, at best, they practiced the art of suggestion with a bit of chemistry or pharmacology mixed in.

This is in no way similar to someone who can shoot actual fire from his actual hands. Why would people with actual superpowers settle for a position as lap dog to someone with the pointiest stick?

>>54048202
The nobility is not 'like' the common folk in a feudal society. It's better. Implying they're not is mad.

>>54048101
Make it low fantasy or lower magics power. Some of my settings have had magic be similarly taxing to physical power and requiring endurance training to have a sustained use or a sort of magic strength training to get bigger one off spells. It wasnt uncommon to see up and coming wizards woking in 3s at a forge blowing fire into the furnace all day alongside apprentice smiths or over at a jewelers imbueing minor enchantments into shitty apprentice made copper braided circlets over and over again. Being a journeyman smith in the forge had as much status and throughput in society as a journeyman caster giving +2 STR to the gauntlets coming out.

>>54048242
>Magic takes time, preparation and materials, and often requires more than one person to perform.
So do military campaigns. Strongman leaders didn't seize power all by their lonesome.

magic takes long time to research and study. If you are on the top of society you are usually a person that is required to solve every problem. Disputes, famine, ambassadors, treasury, harvest, war etc. etc. This takes time. Magic research takes time. You can't do both because you don't have time.

Second. Magic research requires resources. Time spent on harvesting is time taken from research. some things can't be harvested and you need to obtain it. To obtain it you need resources. Time required to obtain the resources it time taken from magic research. It is easier to do some magic favors or spells for a local lord and work as a advisor. He is giving you resources and your magic research is generally uninterrupted.

Third. People don't like things they can't control. People have seen a lot of crazy bastards with power in their hands. Crazy bastard with crazy magic is not a good combination to have for a person in charge.

>>54048245
>someone who can shoot actual fire from his actual hands.

I'm sure you think that's what's really happening when a "wizard" casts a "fireball"..

>>54048300

Fourth. Daily matters are least concern for magic practitioners. They don't care about social interactions, taboos and etiquette. Also they don't care what people think of them or what is generally happening around them. Only thing that really matters is magic research.

Sorcerer and wizard kings should be the staple in a fantasy world honestly. Heck with sorcery running in the bloodline it could easily be a thing of royal and noble families commonly producing sorcerers and purposely doing a sort of magical selective breeding thing where arranged marriages are set up between known mages (preferably) or people from mage rich families.

You could even have it set up with magical bloodlines being treated as the 'divine right to rule' running in their blood.

And of course you'd get the peasants who become hedgemages and witches and stuff due to horny kings and princes sticking it to village girls.

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The ability to organize people is the ability that gets you put in charge.

Some people have guns? They fight amongst themselves until someone organizes them. Some people can throw fireballs? Same situation. And the wizard doesn't have time to administer disputes between farmers, he has to spend his days doing magic. Easier to leave a king in charge in exchange for funding and supplies.

If the magic in your setting is spectacularly, drop-the-moon-on-your-enemy powerful, then maybe your leader does wind up being a magician. But he's not going to be the most powerful magician. He's going to be the magician who's the best at organizing people, because him and his fifty mage-bros can kick the shit out of the most powerful magician.

>>54048358

Even without going into sorcery, the rich and powerful would have access to much better education and would churn out more wizards and stuff anyway magic would eventually just become associated with nobility and wealth.

>>54048300
>magic takes long time to research and study.
Again, military conquest doesn't happen overnight either.

>If you are on the top of society you are usually a person that is required to solve every problem.
What? No. People delegate. They always have.

>Second. Magic research requires resources.
So does outfitting your fighting men with the pointiest sticks.

>Third. People don't like things they can't control.
Tough shit. They don't control the asshole with the pointiest stick either. It's the other way around. This is a hierarchy, not a democracy.

>Fourth. Daily matters are least concern for magic practitioners.
They're still living human beings with ordinary needs.

>>54048101
It depends on the setting and is probably rooted in real-world basis. I for one might think that if you've got an order of wizards, they probably banded together in order to cloister away from people who didn't understand their study, probably allying themselves with nobility in subtle fashions and reserving the flashy stuff only when absolutely necessary.

In regards to 'guys with axes vs. man with fireball' that'd probably evolve into people hiring assassins or some kind of ninja in order to get rid of wizards, though as a result that might lead to wizards becoming skilled in anti-assassination measures and further justifying their presence in the nobility and government positions, so it'd be really reasonable for them to be part of a ruling class.

If we're talking D&D magic classes, clerics are allied with their respective churches so they would probably become involved in politics if they were doing something that opposed their beliefs, like mass baby slaughter. Sorcerers would be pretty legit members of the nobility since princess yadda yadda got kidnapped and dicked by a dragon then four generations later prince whatever learns to cast magic. With different kinds of warlocks they'd probably have their own agenda, fiends especially would probably be super aggressive, great for the combat field for glorifying their patron.

The strongest or best Fighter never ruled our societies by that alone OP, you seem to think that.

Besides, in my game, Fighters and Rogues are just as supernatural as Magicians. Fighters can wrestle down elephants at high levels and all their HP is literal meat points, shoving swords in them DOES NOT hurt them like a normal human. Rogues have super human speed and can fire arrows faster and more accurately then humanly possible. Also I say that some societies are ruled by Fighters, some by Magicians, somd by Rogues, some by weak bueracracts, some by religious people, some by rich elites, etc.

Fantasy worlds are a big place and the 'strongest' person by no means rules every society. The commoner with no magic or fighting skill that can command an army will defeat a mid level fighter, wizard, or rogue every time. I'm not really seeing OP's point unless you're playing in a retarded 'everything is realistic minus magic' and 'magic users are over powered' style setting.

>>54048283
It all starts somewhere. OP asked

>Going right back to the first human tribes, what made people organise into hierarchies with a military strong man at the top? Why didn't the earliest magic users seize leadership roles, setting a precedent for all future leaders of tribes, nations and empires?

In that era, it really is a question of which people in the tribe can physically protect the rest of society, or physically bully them into line. If magic-users can't do it, leadership falls by default to people who can.

By time organized armies have emerged then no doubt noble wizards are nothing special, but you still have the cultural expectation that nobles should be able to ride out with their troops and show strength on the battlefield. Then it's just a question of morale and respect.

People in this society were briefly, but brutally ruled by someone with magic.
They then developed a number of Anti-Magical tactics, such as poisoning the uppity little cocksucker or bashing his head in while he sleeps.

>>54048101
Magic is not all powerful, it is not practical, it is risky, and it is not reliable.

Done.

>Why doesn't everyone in the trailer park pursue or hold STEM degrees?
That's basically your question here.

>>54048101
The gods are fueled by nationalism and hate the idea of someone ruling their country who derives power from a source other than them

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>>54048331
>They don't care about social interactions, taboos and etiquette
>implying making social connections to the right masters and nobles to secure tutelage and funds isn't important
>implying following strict taboos on magical dos and do not won't make sure you don't get strung up by your toes by angry mobs
>Implying not paying attention to etiquette while casting or even in personal hygiene won't get you blown to high hell when a spell goes horribly awry
I bet you even think mussing up a magic user's hair is okay too

>>54048507
Not really. More like
>Why is the entire trailer park so impressed by Jim-Bob's gang of dudes with knives, when Dwayne's gang has assault rifles?

>>54048549
So why don't clerics rule everything?

>>54048569
The gods are fine with the mundane holding positions of power because they don't pose the same threat as non divine spell casters

>>54048561
Because Jim-Bob snuck into Dwayne's place while he was sleeping and carved him up like Michelangelo.

>>54048587
Why would a cleric allow himself to be ruled by a layman with no divine superpowers?

>>54048587
That didn't answer why clerics don't rule everything.
Gods don't like arcane so Dwayne can't be boss, but Ralph can shoot fireballs AND speak the holy word of God so why isn't he in charge?

>>54048569

They do in many cases, thats what you call a theocracy and several settings have such things, such as the Silver Flame in Eberron where a child pope whose a high level cleric rules or in the dragonlance setting where you used to have the High Priest King whose assholelishness caused the gods to drop a mountain on his kingdom

>>54048597
That's a nice symbolic gesture, but Jim-Bob's entire gang is gunned down the next day. Now there's only gunners left to impress the trailer trash.

>>54048624
Well several settings also have magocracies, but either is irrelevant to OP's request

>>54048610
>>54048620
The religious devotion of the clerics often keeps them from pursuing positions of power

>>54048561
>Magic is assault rifles
Not in DnD. Assault rifles are your +number swords, at best.

I think this thread proves that 3/3.5/Pathfinder did the worst damage to this hobby. Now you have cuck millenials like >>54048561 >>54048632 assuming that magic is necessarily superior to martials.

>>54048101
>Why doesn't the nobility almost exclusively consist of magic users in any generic fantasy setting?

People don't already do this? I started making all of my settings have Sorcerers as the aristocracy a long time ago. The magic is even hereditary so you actually have a reason for noble families. Plus, they naturally lean towards having better Charisma, and the array of spells a household would have at their disposal gives them a nice layer of defense against any usurping spellcasters, or just assassins in general.

Prehistoric Europe is said to have had both types of society. Much of Roman mythology is said to reflect the earliest Romans' military victories over neighbouring tribes with predominantly spiritual leadership.

>>54048245
Oh gee another dnd kid who thinks the most powerful wizard is the one who can shoot the most fireballs from his hands. All that means nothing compared to a leader who can inspire hope and cause people to follow him. Or one who can underhandedly sneak their way into becoming the most influential person of the age. Ex. Gandalf and Rasputin

>>54048707
OP kind of implied it was that way in the setting

>>54048179
Except if everyone is walking around with Stone Axes, how is anyone going to realize you just need a spellbook, some hard to find materials, a specific set of magic words, and a deep understanding of the underwotkings of magic just to throw fire from your hands?

Wizarding takes a lot of knowledge that cavemen don't have.

>>54048101
Military stong man is not only good at stronging less stong men into submission, he's good at organising his band of warriors and making them strong. His roots lie in leaders of hunting parties, and he inherited much from them.
Early magic users are just particularly smart and dangerous prey, mostly lonesome and barely grasping the extent of their abilities. All of those juicy DnD spells had to be made at some point, you know.

>>54048732
Wizards were broken in DnD not because of fireball but because of their non-combat spells that could bypass a lot of problems that martials didn't have an answer for, a wizard with mind control magic could easily rule over a country of mundanes

>>54048809
Only in Birthright. Or do you propose mass suggestions on the whole courts?

>>54048101
>Why didn't the earliest magic users seize leadership roles
Wizards were less knowledgeable of the arcane and generally weaker than their feudal counterparts. They required more focus and time to on learn magic allowing the more charismatic normal folk to rise to leadership roles in the community. Eventually while the wizard could cast fireballs to protect/conquer the tribe, the chief had the support of the tribe and knew how to support each member.

>Feudal society
While learning very basic magic, e.g cast light, is demanded of noble blood, very few pursue the art beyond the basics due to the mental and time strain it requires. The nobles focus on interests such as warfare, mathematics and fashion, after all those who have pursed magic to be walking nukes and haven't gone mad are always around they tend to live much longer than normal folk and like trading favors.

>Divine Magic
The gods, both good and evil. tend to be reserved about intervening in the affairs of mortals. Too much intervention will cause other Gods to notice and interfere. There is also the risk of giving an individual too much power and becoming too weak and/or betrayed

>>54048809
You really can't

>walk up to the current king, mind control him
>everybody just watched you wave your arms and scream hocus pocus at the king
>you die faster than if you had drawn a sword

>>54048766
So sorcerors are in charge everywhere.

>>54048245
>assuming every society was a strict top to bottom hierarchy

>>54048848
Show me a fantasy setting that doesn't have its feudal !NotEurope set up that way.

>>54048864
>assuming that even in such hierarchies only the top matters

>>54048842
I mean it depends on the magic system, but if we're talking 3.5 DnD you could sneak into his bedroom while invisible, gag him and then mind control him

>>54048846
Sorcerers tend to require bloodlines to get started though. I highly doubt there were many dragons going around Fucking cavemen back then, and if there were it would take many generations before you get someone who can cast spells but isn't ostracized for looking like those sky lizards that eat people.

Other than that, yes, it makes more sense for noble houses to consist of sorcerers, but even that's less a matter of them being gods among men and more a factor of a handful of low level sorcerers having more arcane knowledge and greater means to stop a random mid level mage who thinks casting charm person allows him to run the country, at least when compared to a gaggle of low level Nobles.

>>54048846
Sorcerors need training and mastering their gift, too. They also need to know where truly are their limits lie. Which takes effort, time and study.

>>54048101

My setting is in renaissance/enlightenment and steadily advancing in technology and magitek because of wars but;

>magic is hard

Magic is like musical skill. You can teach everyone how to sing and plod along with a guitar but actually skilled magicians are rare and virtuosos like Beethoven are born once in every generation and their skill might never be discovered.

>magic takes effort and money

Functional magic is subject to a lot of factors. Aetherwinds, star constellations, seasons, require complex incantations, ritual circles and hand movements. It also needs shit tons of reagents, rare, expensive reagents, many of them needing months of alchemical preparation involving even more reagents in turn. A mage effectively needs an economy of a small town and dozens of apprentices behind him if he reliably wants to keep casting spells. You could be the best damned firemage in the Kingdoms, if your supply of deep sea scarlet pearls, japanese hornet poison and jaguar-blood infused paradise apple seeds from the new world dries up you wont be casting any fire spells without risking burning yourself to death. Advanced spells quickly hit diminishing returns on effort spent.

>wizards are dumb

Wizards are very competitve and secretive. They dont trust eachother and keep hoarding most of the good stuff(thats how hidden tomes of forbidden knowledge come to be) There is barely any communication between wizard masters which combined with the obscurantism wizards love to practice greatly hinders the accumulation of knowledge. They are also very picky when it comes to apprentices and slow in revealing the big guns to them.

>wizards are not very useful

Sure, magic is indispensable to statecraft. But as power was steadly centralizing in the hands of kings they began to employ their own wizards instead of putting up with the shit of untrustworthy wizarding orders and their politics. Wizards getting sidelined alongside with knightly orders and the Church.

>>54048878
>turn invisible
>bumble about sneaking in because your wizard doesn't know how to climb, move silently, or pick locks
>by some miracle reach the king
>he could probably overpower you since youre a frail wizard
>somehow get him bound and gagged silently
>cast your spell
>it wears off after breakfast next morning

Brilliant plan

>>54048924
>somehow, it all succeds and drags on for some time
>the castellan notices that king's acting weird
>the queen notices that king's acting weird
>advisors notice that king's acting weird
>basically, most of the court knows something's up

Now you have a ton of people to deal with daily.

>>54048904

Contd.

At the end, wizards are simply not cost effective, competitive, flexible and trustworthy enough. Sure, if youre a noble, you could hire a battle wizard, fund all his magical shit, provide him with apprentices and servants and a retinue of guards, put up with his wizard fey moods and hope he wont catch a bullet and lose all your investment.

Or just shell out the money, hire a reigment of Landsknechts who will do anything for you, no questions asked and will stay loyal to the bitter end as long they are paid. They might even bring their own cavalry, cannons and spies to sweeten the deal.

>>54048924
Wizards in 3.5 have spells to answer all of these problems, 3.5 is a shit system but you can't claim wizards aren't broken

>>54049054
* Within 3.5

>>54049054

They are only broken if the DM is willing to let them run around shitting on common sense.

>>54049101
Not really it would be perfectly sensible to take over a country if you were a wizard

>>54048924
There's spells to boost your sneaking, to fly, to pass through walls, to restrain people and mind control them for extended periods of time

>How do you justify a generic, traditional feudal society in a fantasy setting that prominently features magic and spellcasters?

Maybe magic isn't all that good?

>>54049166
It's sad that at 5th level wizards are basically impossible to detect without magic if they use 2 spells

>>54049054
>>54049130
>Wizards have answers to all of those problems
>Doesn't list any of the answers

Yeah, sure. If you're a really high level wizard with enough spell slots youll be able to make a perfect scheme to puppet a king, but it's not the sort of thing some random level 5 schmuck can do.

At that point, they could probably also just make their own pocket dimension of form a castle out of the ground if they really want to rule something. And then they also won't have to risk betrayal or being found out.

At the levels you're talking, a Fighter who invested in Charisma could take over a kingsom about as well through brute force and skill checks.

>>54049166
>Just cast invisibility and charm person
>And all these other spells instead!

I see you've mastered the spell 'Teleport Goalposts'

>>54048101
Play a game with a properly designed magic system.

>>54049294
The point is that a wizard is perfectly capable of sneaking into the bedchamber of the king with magic not to mention that it's perfectly possible for the wizard to have the mundane skills necessary to sneak, climb, and pick locks

>>54048179
They believe that magic is weird, easy and lazy at the best of times, and outright evil and corrupting at worst, because that's what the people in power told them. Because the people in power like being in power, and have no interest in facing competition should their source of power become widespread.

It's like you don't understand how to oppress the masses.

>>54049364

Because royal bedchambers are so easy to sneak in and not guarded at all.

>fantasy
I don't have to justify anything.

>>54049437
If there's a window, a door, or a crack in the wall anywhere, then the wizard can get in. Gaseous Form.

>>54049364
So what you meant to say here >>54048809 was

>a wizard with mind control magic, invisibility magic, flight magic, restraining magic, and a smattering of other infiltration spells, along with a skillset befitting a rogue could easily rule over a country of mundane

So sure, a higher level character could do that, but at that point they could probably manage it regardless of class to a degree

>>54049437
>fly
>pass through walls
Not to mention enchant or put masses of people to sleep or even summon a damn rat to scout for you.
Their toolbox is practically overflowing.

>>54048101
am I the only one bothered by all the horse anuses?

>>54049437
>>54049426
A flying invisible wizard can't be seen and makes no sound because he's not touching the ground, this is achievable at 5th level, alternatively the wizard could capture and replace a servant of the king using disguise self in order to get close to the king

>>54048101
For the same reasons it wouldn't happen if magic were real in our world. Superstitions and fear.

Magic users would have to rule the normals from behind the scenes or everything would just fall apart. And then it'd still probably fall apart because of magically assisted subterfuge and infighting. Even the Aes Sedai eventually tore each other apart.

>>54049498
fuck I meant cow

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>>54049478
>So sure, a higher level character could do that, but at that point they could probably manage it regardless of class to a degree
>He thinks a fighter can accomplish anything beyond murdering everyone in sight

>>54049499
How does a flying invisible being open a locked door without making a sound?

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>>54048101
That's a good question. The way I do it in my setting: magic users are the nobility. Magic is effectively what lifts them over commoners, the same way wealth and good armor/equipment did to nobles in our world. Noble bloodlines intermarry to maximize their effect (as mages boast heritage from dragons and fey). Shit like the French Revolution doesn't fly because, while certain social factors can create "commoner knights" (gendarmes), there is nothing that creates "commoner mages". Maybe some genetic freak accidents or whatever, but those mages often end up becoming lower nobility one way or another, and even if they don't they're not numerous enough for real social upheaval.

Magic actually makes it easier to maintain a feudal system (or at least a nobility-centric system).

>>54049531
I mean, if the Wizard can invest in Rogue skills for the purposes of goalpost moving, you could certainly have a fighter who is slightly worse at kill shot but has the diplomancy skills of a Bard.

>>54049478
Lockpiking, move silently and climb is only three skills, wizards get more than enough skill points for that, also flying and invisibility make the wizard undetectable, he literally just has to follow the king to his bedchamber

Because those are all level 5 spells

Also, a king wouldnt employ wizards or countermeasures himself, just gormlessly let everything happen to him.

>>54049559
See >>54049544

>>54049544
He looks through the keyhole and casts dimension door to the other side

>>54049574
>Also, a king wouldnt employ wizards or countermeasures himself, just gormlessly let everything happen to him.
What countermeasures does he have in place to insure his employed wizards aren't the ones trying to mind control him?

>>54049586
>Components: Verbal

Try again

Well I suppose in the past, people with the time to train and fight often become the local warlords and later legitimized lords. I dont see a problem with mage lords ruling over the population.

The only question would be how long does it take to become a respectable mage?

Is magic a direct or indirect thing? Being good at forecasting the weather is a court role claim at best (if thats your only skill) and not one of godking or knight

Can a martial concievably beat a magic user in a one on one fight? How many normies would it take to bring one down?

Does the magic require some sort of moral or social taboo like baby sacrifice or virgin blood?

Would someone who has mastered magic even give a shit about contemporary politics? If you spend all your time in the astral planes fighting deamons, why would you bother with resolving trifle disputes over how many cows peasant Hans owes merchant Frida?

Answering these questions would give you an idea if your setting could conceivably have magic users as the defacto lords of the land.

>>54049631
Feat: Silent Spell

Try again

>>54049621
The same checks and balances on everything else, like his poison taster or advisor and so on.

This whole thread pretty much boils down to two separate threads. On one side you have the people talking about legitimate things like the economy of large scale magical practitioners and the politics of sorcerous bloodlines.
On the other you've got a few people with signs that says
>Magic=win!
screaming at a few people holding signs that say
>Magic=tool
and both refusing to hear the other.

Granted, all of this does come down to the basic standard of "It depends on the system/setting." For every Birthright and Darksun out there, you've got a Greyhawk and Iron Kingdoms.

>>54049683
>Level 10 Wizard can take over a kingdom as long as they have keyhole and not any other sort of lock

Alright, I'll concede to that.

>>54049559
>Lockpiking, move silently and climb is only three skills
It's also three skills you don't have to bother with. There's spells for that. Spells that are really cheap if you get them on scrolls and wands.

>>54049728
Look through the crack under the door nigga, or even just use the gaseous form solution. Does this man sleep in an airtight vault or some shit?

>>54049782
No, but maybe he sleeps with the queen, or guards, or his mistress, or a loyal shadowdancer hanging from the rafters, or in a different room while his body double feigns sleep with a knife under the pillow, or any of a multitude of other simple and sensible precautions for a king.

>>54048101
Because in actual history, the feudal society we had believed in the supernatural. They didn't burn witches just to oppress ugly old women, whatever the feminists tell you today.

>>54049854
1. All Wizards have access to Divination if they want it.
2. They can still probably deal with those situations just fine.
3. The fact that the GM has to go to such lengths to specifically tailor the scenario to thwart the Wizard's shenanigans only proves the point that they're broken.

>>54049782
Looking under the door would require touching the ground, ruining your silence.

Of course, my point wasn't so much about it being a weak security system, but more about the fact that you need a fairly high level wizard in order to accomplish this, and the requirements only go up as the king gets more defenses.

I've never been disputing that a Wizard could take over a nation. My point has been that expecting some fresh-faced novice with charm person and a handful of other utility effects to do it with ease.

>>54049499
>this is achievable at 5th level
After magic is considered common enough. Think about it for a second. All those spells you in the book are already created, with components already known. How in the fuck does a caveman know what components to use, how to use the magic properlynothing's better then teleporting into solid rock and killing yourself and the fucking idea of doing it. You see a bird flying and you want to fly, but what components do you need to fly? How do channel that magic to allow you to fly? Going to flap your arms like a retard and hope you're channel the magic right?

>>54049854
If he's sleeping with others cast silence so that no one is alerted, the shadow dancer can be put to sleep, charmed or hold personed, the body double can't see the invisible flying wizard and after being charmed reveals he's a body double

>>54049915

They burned witches to settle petty personal grudges and get their propety. Witchcraft was just a comfy excuse.

>>54049927
>the king sleeping with his wife is tailoring the scenario

>>54049929
You could fly upside down in order to peak under the door, alternatively the sound of the wizard lightly touching the ground isn't noticed

>>54049941
So again, needing to be a very high level wizard to have enough spell slots to cast all these spells Metamagiced to be silenced

>>54049946
Because the second someone suggests a solution to that problem, you're just going to say she's an amazon badass with sixteen barbarian levels. I've argued with your kind before, and I know your tricks because you dumb fucks are stupidly predictable.

>>54049942
Sure they did. Every last participant in every witch trial was a cynical athiest making excuses to steal Granny's cottage. Makes perfect sense. And the Church drew its power from the Pope having a nice hat.

>>54049927
>1.access to Divination
I keep seeing this line, and yet I've never once had someone actually explain how this works. All the basic divination spells have failure chances and give bad odds on answers, so I guess you can base your kingdom takeover on some chicken guts, sure.
>2. and be out of spells, or discovered, or now such a high level that the point is moot.
>3. Introducing reasonable security measures against other actors in the world is not tailoring the scenario to thwart a player. Do you cry and bitch when the bank vault is locked because it means the GM is working against you?

>>54049978
>Just fly upside-down and embed your skull in the floor so your eyes are even with the crack
>Alternatively, let me please ignore the need to make this Move Silently check DM

>>54049927

And its not like Kings would have trouble accessing multiple high level wizards,rogues, psions, clerics etc. Maybe he is even a wizard himself.

You could play out the scenario with every class. If high level assassins are a threat, the king will employ counter-assassins himself. If psions are a threat, they might implement rigorious mind control checks by court psions. Why having royal wizards is such a stretch?

Also, I know this exact kind of player. Who comes with with a "smart" plan, and throws a bitchy fit when basic common sense hits him in the face and accouses the DM for thwarting him on purpose.

>>54049993
I haven't tried to alter the scenario at all really. My point has remained pretty much the same.

Do you contest >>54049929 ? Because the king can have a bunch of trivial defenses, but everything you've suggested so far that would actually work requires at least level 7

>>54050000
He could cast sleep to disable the wife and guards

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>>54050008
>Maybe he is even a wizard himself.
>hey anons tell me why wizards wouldn't rule kingdoms instead of normies?
>because the normie ruling a kingdom is also a wizard

>>54050008
Because it's not common sense. It's you pulling shit out of your ass because a player came up with a plan you didn't think was possible and you want to get them back on the railroad as fast as possible.
>Hey, y'know, we could probably just take over the kingdom if we do x to the king.
>URR NO he's got, like, shadowdancer bodyguards and counter-wizards who are TOTALLY stronger than you and his queen's got 19 levels in assassin and he has sixteen epic level barbarian bodyguards and...
Jesus Christ, just say no.

>>54049994

The church drew its power by completely dominating the cultural, polticial discourse and narrativive for centuries and having most of the literate and intelligent people snapped up. Having the power to excommunicate anyone up to entire countries didnt hurt either.

The whole witchcraft shit and ideas about the dark and superstitous medieval yokels actually came much later, when the catholics and protestants kept making shit about echother and sniffing their farts how they live in enligthened times, not those dung-smelling dark ages.

>>54050045
which is another round of saves, another point of failure, and all it'll take is one bad roll and then the jock in full plate breaks your nerdy wizard neck

>>54050008
I think the big thing here is that a level 10 character working to take over a kingsom full of level 1 nobodies isn't special or difficult.

A Rogue can easily have skills high enough to sneak past everyone, could be a master of disguise so as to gather vast info on the king's history and personality, and just generally be a suave convincing motherfucker.

A Rogue of that level could easily pull a Rasputin. Or he can bluff that he's a long lost heir with good odds. Or he can disguise himself as the king and take his place. Or he can just convince the king to let him marry the princess, then assassinate the king easily.

None of this is quite that hard for anyone.

>>54050030
I would agree that at least level seven is necessary I guess the question is what is the average level of a wizard in the setting, I've been arguing this point because I feel like people don't understand that Wizards are way too powerful in 3.5, that being said I shouldn't attack you when it seems like you aren't the one denying caster supremacy

>>54050089

>t's you pulling shit out of your ass because a player came up with a plan

>hey I could walk in and kill the king lol!
>Sorry, the king would be defended better than nothing at all.
>SCREEEEE STOP RUINING MY PLANS, YOURE A HORRIBLE DM

>>54050118

This. Any class could shit on some strawman of a scenario.

>>54050030
I'm not that guy, but I do contest it. Gaseous Form is piss easy to get and takes a 5th level wizard to do.

>>54050118
It's harder for the rogue though, wizards are just better in 3.5

>>54048384
>this is a hierarchy
>not a democracy
im not sure if you know what those words mean

>>54048358
In The Tempest, Prospero was deposed as king because he stopped attending to politics to study magic. He was apparently an excellent wizard, but it was incompatible with holding onto political power.

>>54050119
I think everyone understands that Wizards are OP. It's just a matter of them possibly being at a level where basic mundane defenses would trip them up sufficiently.

I'd argue closer to level 4 would be the only wizards you could find commonly, but that gets into a whole other mess of setting details.

One answer might be to say that the king has a relatively low-level wizard who can detect magic and cast some wards and alarms to sense enemy wizards, but doesnt have that high level toolset needed to secretly take over the king in the long term.

Either way, I don't think it's that hard to justify a setting where Wizards aren't god kings.

>>54050214
True, how prevalent and powerful can magic be though before we start seeing god kings?

>>54050135
But that's not what you're doing. You're heaping on more and more conditions when people suggest solutions, thereby proving the absolute fact that Wizards are broken, which is what this whole mess is all about.
>We could kill the king.
>URR NO HE HAS A BILLION GUARDS
>Okay, fine, I'll gaseous form up to his room through his window.
>HURR NO HIS ROOM IS AIR TIGHT
>Fine, I'll scry and teleport in
>HE'S IMMUNE TO SCRYING AND YOU'D FAIL ANYWAY
>Fuck, fine, I'll just go incorporeal and phase through the walls
>NUH UH HE'S GOT A SHADOWDANCER BODYGUARD THAT HIDES IN HIS RAFTERS ALL NIGHT
This is schoolyard level bullshit.

>>54050144
I was going off of the guy who suggested a Silent Spell feat though, whixh increases the casting level by 1. And of course, a 5th level wizard has less slots to pull off the other things he needs for this, and will also have fewer options for long term charm effects.

>>54050257

Swords are broken, I tried to stab a king and all his guards had swords.

>>54050091
We're making up shit too. For fun. If our shit roughly lines up with the old shit, it shouldn't be too hard pass our suspension of disbelief test.

>>54050254
Well, based on this thread, I'd say level 6 would be the upper cap before it becomes more foolproof for a wizard to take over. And from there as long as theyre not vanishingly rare (like, one per continent) then you would start seeing them.

Of course, that assumes 3.5. For others, I'd imagine the cap goes higher as Wizards can't do everything as perfectly. Another way to drastically reduce it is if Wizards are restricted to one school. A Diviner could see the layout, an Illusionist could sneak in, and a Enchanter could beguile the king, but at that point you have a team of mages and not one god wizard.

>>54048610
Because some gods believe in the delegation of temporal power. Dante took the pope's claim of authority over the Holy Roman Empire (in place of an emperor) to be near-heretical, because the divine order needed to be reflected in early arrangements.

>>54050298
Ah, I see you've stopped trying entirely. I'll take that as an admission of defeat then. Thank you.

>>54050257
Nobody ever tried to sat the room was airtight. At most, people have said it was locked, had guards outside, and he was sleeping with his wife. Bodydoubles and people hiding in the rafters are possible, but only likely if the king is paranoid.

Of course, at a certain point, it becomes a question of why your level 20 wizard with every spell prepared is bothering with this guy

>>54050354

I wonder how long you will keep replying.

>>54050354
Not that guy, but what's your actual point?

Why are people still arguing?>>54050313 basically answered the debate

>>54049498
Where do you think you are, son?

The entire point of this thread is that real magic with practical effects fundamentally changes the dynamic between martial and spiritual leaders, from the earliest parts of human prehistory.

If magic isn't real, a spiritual leader gets his shit pushed in by any martial leader worth his salt. If magic is real, the spiritual leader has access to a whole suite of magical options to combat strongmen.

This fundamentally changes the power structures that develop in our societies.

Just slapping a medieval European society with magic tacked on into your setting doesn't take this into account.

You can become a mage only if you have you are fucked up in the head. Like it is a nature requirment that you are not a balanced individual to have magical powers.

So no wizard was sane enough for long enough time to get the witch king thing rolling down.

Which is a shame

>>54049854
It doesn't even take that. All it takes is one friendly and loyal dude who casts detect magic on the monarch every morning (maybe even multiple times a day!) to check if there are unwanted magical influences on the king, regardless of orders to the contrary. That's a zeroeth level spell, accessible in 4 different spell lists. The court musician is capable of doing this, assuming he's at least a level 1 bard.

If there is something that there shouldn't be, and a spell like Domination is going to register a strong magical presence detectable in 3 rounds, and if he does have a spell on him, some kind of contingency plan in place for what to do with the monarch's mental soundness is compromised.

Magic doesn't grant personal power but allows the creation of objects that can be used by anyone.

So people with guns control the world but engineers that produce the guns do not.

>>54050362
>why your level 20 wizard with every spell prepared is bothering with this guy
Because he wants a kingdom? Having dominion over the resources of a powerful kingdom doesn't really ever stop being useful

>>54050474
Nystul's magic aura tho

>>54050500
Alright. Cool. Your God-Wizard takes over the kingdom. We've gone a long way from 'any wizard with a charm spell' but whatever.

What does this prove? That in this particular system high levwl characters cam beat low level NPCs easily?

>>54050257
These aren't brilliant and novel uses of spells that are getting shot down. You're effectively freaking out because your brilliant attempt to assassinate the king by slipping poison into his dinner got foiled by a food taster.

>>54050534
Works on items, not active spells.

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As a note, this sort of thing has been done plenty of times in settings with various explanations and reasons.

>>54048101
It comes down entirely on how magic works in the setting. A mage might literally just not have the time to manage a country because he's busy doing other important shit, like summoning rain or banishing spirits or whatever the fuck it is that those crazy dudes in the pointed hats do. It's hard to be a reliable arbitrator when you don't even see people for a month at a time because you're busy managing the weather.

This is kind of why supposed mystics weren't usually the heads of their specific tribes among primitive humans. They were busy doing other shit like making medicine or treating people, arbitration was for someone else.

>>54048179
>And since everyone else is walking around with stone axes, the guys that throw actual fireballs are the ones in power.
>It doesn't work.
Sure it does when skilled nappers can craft obsidian blades capable of felling the mightiest trees with a single stroke, while wizards pass out and shit themselves trying to summon a fist full of butterflies.

Magic is only as powerful as you establish it to be.

Do medieval settings with dnd level magic users make sense? No. But "stop playing DND" has been /tg/'s mantra since time immemorial.

>>54048101
>Why doesn't the nobility almost exclusively consist of magic users in any generic fantasy setting?
This anon had it:

>>54048300
>You can't do both because you don't have time.
Basically this.
This skills, attributes, and talents that make one a good leader, don't necessarily make one a magic user. And visa versa.
Sure, there will be notable Mage-King exceptions, but mostly not.

The hospital administrator is not always the best doctor in the place.
The leader of the army is not always the best fighter.
Those with magic have power.
Those who lead have control.
There is some overlap, but pretending it'd always be dominated by all-powerful mages assumes far too many things about the setting.

>>54050835
You don't need to be a good leader to murder the fuck out of the existing leader and take over their country, though.

>>54050875
You kind of do, since "I murdered the fuck out of the old leader" is rarely a sustainable claim to leadership.

>>54050875
Do you want to end up like most of Africa, cause that's how you end up like detroit.

>>54050898
It is if you've got enough power to enforce your claim. In the real world that requires a lot of military power, but in a fantasy world you might be able to pull it off just with enough personal power.

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That's kinda like asking why scientists aren't running everything IRL. Maybe the vast majority of wizards would rather be studying.

>>54048101
Someone went through the trouble to draw a cow anus

>>54051000
Sounds like a great way to get poisoned or murdered in your sleep.

A Wizard would be a shitty leader even if he rules with an iron fist, because he knows little of statecraft or politics. He could rule, sure, but the kingdom is probably going to spiral into shitsville as he spends hours of every day simply keeping the populace in line while preparing and researching spells.

>>54051000
You've got to sleep sometime.

And establishing "I killed the last leader" as a legitimate right to rule paints a huge target on yourself.

If a high powered wizard wants to blow up some orcs to establish dominance, that's a standard fantasy trope. The same doesn't get work in now "civilised" lands.

>>54051029
Scientists simply possess knowledge, not the ability to manifest effects through ritual and sheer willpower.

>>54051029
Yeah.

Science invented machine guns, hence scientists should rule the world.

>>54051144
Only if machine guns and tanks were magically bound to scientists.

>>54051029
One of the guys I play with used to play a caster that had like 50 STR. The truth is that if you build your mage chacater good you can do any role better then a someone with a role made for it by 3.5 game designers.

>>54051120
>, not the ability to manifest effects through ritual and sheer willpower.
Building an atom bomb/plane/assault rifle definitely qualifies as a lengthy ritual.

The real difference is that don't have a monopoly on they power one it's created.

>>54051166
So that sounds like a pretty good answer to me then.

They're just words on a page, anytime can use a spell book once it's pretty together. The same for wants/rings/staves/hats of power.

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>>54051029
>That pic
The left is only true for the first five levels. After that it's utterly wrong, at least for D&D.

>Access to useful spells
Per spell level they have at least one "silver bullet" spell that utterly trivializes an encounter. Spells like sleep, grease, web. They're "save or suck", often "save or die".
>Low AC
True, but not only are there spells to solve that, but given the above a wizard often doesn't need AC
>Poor combat ability outside of spells
Again, *can* be solved by spells, but their great spells trivialize the need for combat. It reduces any mundane fighters the party may have to clean-up duty.
>Muh Stormwind fallacy strawman
Yeah...nah.
>Interesting archetypes with strengths and weaknesses
Relative to eachother or other casters, yeah. Relative to mundanes? Nah.
>Strong dynamic with fighters, clerics and other classes when teamwork is properly used
True, though in this context teamwork doesn't mean working together as much as it means the wizard holding back out of politeness or player inexperience.

Spells really change that much, and considering D&D uses Vancian casting and every splatbook adds more and more spells, wizards and other full casters keep getting more powerful. Short of impossibly extensive playtesting or abandoning Vancian casting (which I wouldn't be opposed to) this problem cannot be solved.

>>54051236
Earlier and later editions than 3.5 really don't have the problem though, at least not to the same extent. Nonsense only kicks off more towards level 15 for AD&D and 5e rather than level 5, for example.

It isn't an,inherent factor of spells or even vanician magic, it's just a factor of how absolute few restrictions Wizards in 3.5 have.

>>54051144
Engineers invented machine guns. And just because you build something and understand the theories behind it and its use, doesn't mean you're proficient in its use. You big dummy.

Also an automatic weapon doesn't let you warp reality and circumvent the most basic laws of the universe.

>>54049993
Why wouldn't the king and queen be badass in a fantasy story? You sound like player who is used to his character being the only being with power in the universe.

Your problems with the setting don't stem from a desire for consistency,but from a desire to feel special.

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>>54048101
I concur.
It is only natural that magic users rise to the top of society and put mundanes in their place.

>>54048179
Magic is for faggots

You can beat magic with a big rock.

I like this subject.

>>54051000
Taking control is not the same as keeping control

>>54051356
Machine guns fundamentally changed the culture, impact, and damage caused by war. They have a terrifyingly long range, were incredibly powerful, and worked well implemented in offensive and defensive maneuvers. They destroyed the value of cavalry and forced generals to change the ideas used to build formations. If that isn't warping reality nothing could really count as warping reality.

>>54051356
>Also an automatic weapon doesn't let you warp reality and circumvent the most basic laws of the universe
You're mixing fluff and crunch. It doesn't matter if I use a point stick or summon a lighting bolt by ripping a whole in time and space if they both do 2d6+4 damage.

What if, mechanically speaking, any investment in magical ability and general leadership has equivalent returns to any equivalent investment in martial ability and general leadership?

Would two very different flavours of feudal hierarchy develop side-by-side?

>>54048101

the earliest magic users were Shaman and the spirits didnt want them in charge

>>54048101
>>54051932

also I think people forgot how rare Pc Classes are supposed to be

like one in a thousand or something like that with a world population much lower then our own

and then you spilt them up futher because most are fighters and rogues

and then high level wizards users are even rarer because learning magic is hard not that people ever seem to mention that

high level wizards are rare as Hell but with the way people talk about them you can't walk a mile without passing twenty of them

>>54051930
You'd probably have societies run by people who invested in general leadership and general leadership than people who split thier resources into general leadership and magic/martial ability.

>>54052093
Yeah. I think the general flawed assumption is that every 10th guy is a wizard and every tenth wizard is high level.

>>54052093
Psha.
Next you'll be asking why every little village isn't ruled by the local Adept.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/npcClasses/adept.htm

>>54052134
I like how Ebberron did it, with the idea that by the time the party hits 3-5th level or so, they've already done and seen more than a city guard will in his entire lifetime. Heads of state and movers/shakers were in the 10-14 range, and past that was into living legend territory.

>>54048101
Not every setting is D&D.

>>54048101

Imagine air being blown into a cow. This is literally what “chuī niú” means. Inflating oneself, which in English, is just plain bragging. You could compare it to the American expression “full of hot air.”

A few more popular, colorful variations can provide more detail on how to blow air into a cow. For example, “chuī niú bī” — blowing air into a cow’s vagina — or the less vulgar “chuī niú pī,” blowing onto a cow hide (a storied expression).

But beware. Just “niú bī” or “cow’s vagina” on it’s own is slang for “bitchin’” or “f***in’ awesome.” Add “bī” to anything and it just doubles the impact of the expression.

> Those cow vaginas reminded me of this. I know, now you must.

>>54052105
Uh, no. Pol-Sci majors don't stand a chance against battle-hardened warlords. This isn't some enlightened meritocracy.

>>54052219
I'd say it's weird that their word for vaginas is used as a general purpose intensifier, but then our word for sexual intercourse is used in basically the same way, so I guess we're all weird.

>>54052235
If the polisci major is good, the warlord walks in with the intent to kill and leaves with a dopey grin and the title "Lord protector"

>>54052388
Why the fuck does /tg/ always have to come up with some out-of-the-box C when you're trying to gain some fucking insight in A or B?

Learn to answer a fucking question, autists.

>>54052235
leaders are leaders because they don't try to play the same game as the warlord. They'd administrate things until war stopped bringing back the returns it used to then they'd restructure the kingdom and depose the warlord. It doesn't have to be enlightened, look at old myths if you want a picture of how the politician takes power from a mighty warlord, there are plenty of them. It wasn't achilles who defeated troy after all.

>>54052417
a and b tend to be pigeonholed straw-men pitting a 21 year old poli-sci major against Genghis khan

>>54052134

yeah

I mean I get that Sorcerer Kings make sense but that doesn't mean that their every where

That level of talent, skill, and luck is not something you can count on to be passed downed the bloodline

hell I like nobles with levels in bard but I don't put them everywhere

>>54052164

well of couse not

not every place is a theocracy anon

mostly kidding aside Adepts might have the wisdom to rule but you also need charisma which they might not have

and villages most likely outnumber the number of adepts of sufficient leaderhip ability that a church can afford to send
with out being understaffed

>>54052369
The same is true of Swedish in Finland, and as far as I know of Finnish as well. "Fittigt" is used as an intensifier, and in the vast majority of cases for something positive. "Fitta" ("Viittu" in Finnish) is slang for the vagina, a bit more rude than "pussy" but not quite as rude as "cunt".

>>54054047
Maybe it doesn't matter the actual meaning, but is more about the phonetics of it. Perhaps some sounds just work better when you want emphasis.

>>54048507
>>54048561
>>54048597
>>54048632

Redneck Turf War RPG when?

>>54048101
Magic came from a meteorite. The setting is in mid medieval times. Schools of magic have just started organizing and the first official magical books and shit are being spread around. The PCs are right in time for a golden age of magic users

>>54048101
>Why didn't the earliest magic users seize leadership roles, setting a precedent for all future leaders of tribes, nations and empires?
Too much effort. Being a leader takes too much time and energy you could be using to better your craft to the point that someone could just take you out with someone else who isn't similarly burdened.

Magic users just learned that it was much easier to have the people who run things indebted to them rather than trying to directly rule them.

>>54048101
Magic is not that common, and usually takes a certain kind of person to get good at it.


Conans of preshistory put an end to early mageocracy

>>54057153
neat

>>54051554
>You can beat magic with a big rock.
when their main resource is paper?
please

>>54051120
You could call the creation of advanced weaponry and feats of modern technology "ritual" of a sort. Wizards could just be the guys who know how the unseen world works. Wise, learned men.

>>54048101
The Wheel of Time books do a good job answering these questions if you pay attention to the way in which magic users interact with the rest of the world.

>>54048101
He's painted that cow's arsehole in unnecessarily lurid detail I must say. And he's a bit dressed up for just being out with the cows.

>>54048101
But this entirely reflected by real history, there would only have been one main shaman in a tribe and he was often the chief. Magic users are either so rare that they will always be in some especially prominent or marginalised position or they are so commonplace in a setting that there's nothing special about it.

> feudal society

That's your mistake. Most high fantasies are closer to modern liberal societies (e.g. many cultures mixing, many small independently-run societies, a much closer socio-economic gap than what existed in medieval Europe, etc).

>>54048358
jewing for my camp

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>>54048101
Basically what >>54048372 said. Magic is a skill, and one that takes a lot of focus and devotion. Similarly, organizing and inspiring people to get shit done is also a skill that also takes a lot of focus and devotion to THAT skill. Granted, the skills and personality traits necessary to organize a posse of spellcasters are not the same as those needed to organize a posse of warriors, so there'd be a different flavor of feudal, but still. If you'll endulge a metaphor, if magical skill were coding, then you'd need a Steve Jobs type to build a structure of casters around him. The king wasn't always the guy who could fight the best in personal combat: he has his arms-master for that, but you can bet he at-least knows how to swing a sword. Similarly, Jobs COULD code, just not that well, because his focus was really elsewhere, and he had dedicated people much better at that doing it for him. King's probably adequate at magic, but more focused on the administration of his mages.

If anything, in the "magic works" feudalism, the courtly nobles aren't all that different, but the equivalent of the KNIGHT class is replaced with the caster. Replace each fiefdom's castle with a wizard's tower, and you've still got what basically amounts to a feudal society.

>>54050582
>government
>matriarchy
Those are not humans in Bazareene

>>54048901
Yeah, but they can do that shit when they're young, and by the time they're 30 they can take over where their parents left off. And that's if they're human.

Elves reach physical maturity at the same time as humans, so they have plenty of time to study before they hit 100 and are mature enough to lead anyone

>>54048766
So in this scenario there aren't any magic users at all.

>>54064673
You know a hundred year old elf experience wise is equal to a 20 some year old human, so it seems like they don't actually spend plenty of time studying or doing anything of value really. Maybe elves all have learning disorders.

>>54048101
Magic users integrate into the Fuedal structure offering services depending on their power and magics at their disposal and the wizards with the big pointy hats end up on the kings council orginizaing all these less powerful spellcasters so that magic is being used properly to the benfit of the kingdom.

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While sorcerer kings make sense, I think they would be more susceptible to a single bad apple ending their line.
Since their power is based off of charisma, a weak sorcerer is also unlikable, while an unlikable warlord might still be physically daunting (or a weak king might still be a great leader).

>>54048101
I'm going to be a dick and say "it depends on the setting", especially so in this case.
Sometimes magic just isn't more practical then simple directed violence for securing political power.
Sometimes it requires a rare and inconsistent gift that nobody can identify and varies wildly in power and usefulness.
Sometimes magic doesn't actually work for the purposes of violence and you still have to kill people regular to get anywhere.
Sometimes it requires a LOT of effort to master, requiring so much time and effort and study that you literally don't have time for anything else like being a ruler.
Sometimes magic is flashy but mostly fake.
Sometimes it's just too dangerous to use unless you really need to use it.
Sometimes the laws of the universe fuck you over when you try to fuck them first.
Sometimes the price of magic is just too high for most people to play.
Sometimes the power of magic is not as effective at fighting dozens of people as it could be and thus a group of guys with swords can kill a mage.
Sometimes magic is basically just an elaborate con game and the trick is getting people to believe it's more dangerous then it actually is.
Sometimes a gun actually is quicker and more effective.

Literally all of these is an example of shit that happened in successful fantasy novels before that answers your question and at the same time shows how meaningless it was because you couched it in such vague and imprecise terms that if I simply breathed heavily in your direction it could be a correct answer, you gigantic idiot.

>>54048179
Wrong.

>>54048245
Wrong.

>>54048809
Wrong.

>>54048101
Because magic is misogyny. You basically get magic powers for being a dude and gain strength equal to how much of a father/grandfather figure you are. Powerful wizards are exclusively elderly white males with masculine flowing beards.

They don't rule nations because they leave that to thier surrogate son. ( And it's almost always a son reinforcing patriarchal feudal dynamics.) Look at Merlin and Arthur for the prime example.

The rare cases that break this mold are generally evil. See the "foul enchantress" trope which is even more problematic including over sexualized women AND slut shaming The prime example here being be Morgan LeFay, who represented an independent woman existential risk to the patriarchy.

>>54069611
So a dumb old man cucking his genes out of existence is better than a strong woman who takes what the patriarchal society denied her?
Keep drinking the white man Kool-aid.

>>54069694
I didn't make up the trope. Patriarchy in general is pretty dumb.

>>54048101
Maybe it's a setting where magic users aren't a million times stronger than high level martials?

Personally, I've said priestly magic requires too much devotion, arcane requires too much study, and other magic requires too much jedi training for practitioners to make good statesmen.

>>54050257
>Any monarch can easily be killed by any 5th level adventurer
So why aren't all kingdoms already ruled by high level adventurers?

>>54069611
A lot of thought went into this shit post.

>>54069611
Isn't magic derived from being Womanly though?
Which is why Loki is both a powerful magician and a sexual deviant

>>54069993
Loki was considered a "sexual deviant" because of the patriarchy's distrust of non cisnormative and genderfluid people, not because of magic.

Speaking of Norse mythology, Odin is another great example of the masculine wizard patriarch.

>>54070110
In Norse society, magic or seidr (as well as finance for some reason) was definitely considered an unmanly art.
It was even considered unmanly that Odin used divination, but he made up for it by being the all-father, yanno.

>>54070110
>Speaking of Norse mythology, Odin is another great example of the masculine wizard patriarch.

odin was specifically mocked for using magic that was regarded as womanly.

ITT:

50% of people arguing for relate-able real world examples and applying them to this concept.

50% of autists screaming about how spells are cheap and easy and filtering this entire concept through a PHB and stat optimization.

Gee, kinda feels like I'm at the game table.

>>54070110
I thought it was because he got fucked by a goat and then gave birth to a wolf

>>54070253
Yeah. It's one of the reasons I like Norse mythology. It was full of manly men doing manly things, but there was at least hobbits if feminine virtues. Odin is basically an example of how toxic masculinity needs to be mitigated with female reason.
>>54070298
True, but the criticism comes from the pantheon's "sexual deviant" as recorded by a cis white male Christian monk.

It makes me wonder how much better history would be without the misogynistic Catholic Church.

>>54070452
Loki got fucked by a lot of things. The Norse disdained the receptive partner, male or female.

>>54048101
Because the spellcasters deliberately keep it that way.
If society advances too far, their political and destructive power wanes, so they go around Men in Black style, stealing inventions and wiping minds to preserve their dominance.

In fact, black powder has been invented countless times, but all attempts to use it result in a catastrophic explosion, leaving behind not a single trace of evidence and a perfectly undamaged blast zone. I wonder how that could have happened...

>>54049554
>there is nothing that creates "commoner mages"
What, your setting doesn't have illegitimate children of nobles? For real?

>>54070406
You play at some terrible tables, my friend.

>>54072769
Noble bastards were mostly used as assets by that family, right? They weren't just dumped in some faraway village, or am I wrong about this?

Even if I am wrong, now there would be a valid reason for a family to not utterly and completely distance itself from its bastards: their very ability to use magic would elevate them above mere commoners (a lot of them would probably end up being "knights").

>>54072101
Found the backstory for my next campaign