>some people will defend this

>>54034867
ROGUE WAZ A GUD BOY HE DINDU NUFFIN

>>54034867
To be fair, it says "example" rather than "good example."

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>>54034867
Wait hold on. How is that showing consequence? What am I missing, because if I'm reading that right he just blackbagged a PC and said "Who knows" sessions after the supposed crime with nothing to connect them for the PCs.

It's basically the same as just kicking a character, only it's incredibly passive aggressive about it

>>54034867
Well, yeah, it's useless for "showing consequences" because it sounds like the player had no idea what happened, not even a, "your character is pulled into the alley and never heard from again". But I'm pretty sure the passage of the book is just poorly written.

>>54034867
Is this from a parody Game Manual? Like the Onion but for TTRPGs?

>>54034867
Is this from John Wick's shitty book on GM advice?

>>54034972
I'm pretty sure it's John Wick, but I don't know if it's from "Play Dirty" or some other thing he wrote

>>54034867
I dont hink anybody will defend this.

>>54034905
Its an example the same way cheese is meat.

>>54034867
This is one of the stupidest things I've ever read. Literally the GM decided the player was having wrong bad fun and thought the best option wasn't to go up to him and say "hey man that isn't really the tone we're going for with this game, could you try things a little differently in the future" like a full grown adult, but to just totally remove all agency from the player and just disappear his character from the game like he's punishing a child. The moral of consequences doesn't even make sense because the action and results have no discernable connection to each other. The GM just got booty blasted and decided to be a passive aggressive faggot.
I'm unnecessarily rustled about this.

>>54034998
>>54034972
L5R 4e core.

>>54034867
> Hey, that doesn't sound bad, having the guards comrades come to back to have the PC face the consequences of his ac....
> "You dead lol!"
Yeah no.

>>54035032
How would they even find out that it was the rogue? The situation doesn't specify witnesses.

>>54034867
Game? So i know what not to buy.
Its terrible.
he could have made the parents of the guard dry themself in search of revenge targeting everything dear to teh characters, adding a nice sub-story.
Could have simply made him invetsigated later for the assassination.
Could have made ANYTHING that resembles real consequences and make the player question his character's morals

Instead, we have "im a fucking retarded asshole and i killed your characters because I felt so"

Im terribly rustled by this and now i need to punch someone

>>54035052

it's L5R. Boycotting it means shit because it's propped up by its card game

>>54035052
I think it isn't from a game, but John Wick's "Play Dirty".

The troll trying to tell you it's L5R, well, "Western-style fantasy".

>>54035231
Why else would he even introduce a story by calling something "Western-style fantasy" if it wasn't from a book about something else?

>>54035231
It's L5R. Page 313.

>>54035006
fuck that player. entitled prick

>>54035231
No, it's from L5R's 4th edition.

https://www.pdf-archive.com/2014/06/05/l5r-legend-of-the-five-rings-4e-core-rules/l5r-legend-of-the-five-rings-4e-core-rules.pdf

As the other anon said, jump to page 313 of the PDF.

If anything, the screenshot doesn't expose the full stupidity of the process, continuing onwards

>The morals of a society are ultimately made by the people living in it. If you live in a neighborhood where crime is rampant, people do not look down their nose at thievery the way someone in a peaceful suburb might. The PCs, as the "stars" of the story, define and magnify the morality of the game world like no one else (except perhaps the villains). If the PCs do not respect others, this is reflected in the state of the world those PCs live in.

>If the world is crumbling around them, and the PCs choose mercy over vindictive slaughter, their actions can change the world. But if the PCs choose to murder in the name of the Emperor simply because the law says they can, their code of Bushido is meaningless, and Rokugan fills with people who espouse the principle of "Might makes Right." The PCs should slowly and subtly find themselves face to face with NPCs exhibiting behaviors very similar to theirs. When the PCs encounter poor manners and negativity flooding every corner of the Emerald Empire, they may begin to see causality.

tl;dr THE PCS SHOULD HAVE MAGICAL MIND CONTROL INFLUENCE OVER LITERALLY EVERYHTING BECAUSE REASONS!

>>54034867
Yes, it really is from the L5R 4e core book, and the writer was trying to figure out ways to get players into the spirit of playing L5R if they wete used to being total dungeon-crawling munchkin sociopaths. The idea was something akin to The Chicago Way: the NPCs behave honorably as ling as the PCs do, but every time the PCs bend the rules to get their way, the NPCs do the same thing but even worse. It's not a great idea because it treats all the NPCs as a single hive mind, not to mention that it's overkill to kill a PC as a substitute for talking to the player about campaign themes before it starts.

>>54035394
Yeah, he's basically saying games should run on Fable logic or something

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>some people will defend this

>>54035438
At least he bothers to say that it's better to just kick the shitty player, but yes Gygax has said some sketchy advice over the years. Even his ideas on good vs evil in terms of mercy are sort of surprising

>>54035462
In his day, they weren't telling a story, they were just playing a fucking game.
Hell, the reason so many powerful NPCs in his campaigns were neutral was just so that the 'board' would get reset over time, so that whoever was winning wouldn't keep winning.

>>54035438
>If a player is being a fuckhead he loses 1 charisma.
I see nothing wrong with this.

>>54035394
>>54035426
Actually, this is fine. It's not so much that the culture is changing, but rather that the players, as they become seedier and seedier, begin dealing with the darker sides of that culture, due to their reputation for being honorless curs, and the fact that the seedier parts of the Empire are the only parts that can help them do what they must. This is just preaching tone matching.

Essentially, it's a logical consequence of murder hoboing. If you act like a murder hobo, eventually the only people willing or able to associate with you will be murder hobos, and you can see how fucking annoying you are you twats.

>>54036476
But that's literally not what was said or even implied by the author's statement. Hell, he even talks about cases where the PCs are acting within the bounds of the law of the society they're in, so can't be facing social censure. He's talking solely in terms of dramatics, that the actions of the PCs influence or even control the moral tone of the society they're part of, without ever really explaining why they should have that kind of effect.

>>54034992
>>54034998
>>54035231
It's from the L5R core book, and it's NOT written by Wick. I've read Play Dirty, and the advice in the book is more about making the players work than about being straight up dicks to them.

>>54036816
Wick wrote L5R, just not sure if that specific version.

>>54036847
I'm pretty sure he left AEG before 4e released. He's not credited as a writer at the very least.

>>54036862
The credits on the PDF mention a "special thanks" to John Wick, but don't list him as an author of the rulebook.

>>54035006
Found the rogue in the example.

If your idea of fun is to be disruptive, please leave the table.

>>54036944
>Rob would like to thank
>John Wick, for creating such an amazing world and game for all of us to play in.
It's basically just an acknowledgement that he created L5R.

>>54034867
That makes no sense. The Rogue kills a guard, sees no consequences, and then has his character brushed away into an alley and vanished without a hint of why or what.

An example of showing consequences would be to have something occur that is very clear and links the two events. Right now, the Rogue has no way of knowing that their character was handwaved out of existence because they killed that guard a few weeks ago.

>>54036974
>kill a guard
>get no consequences
>DM randomly kills your character off weeks later

This is a shitty way to handle it regardless of how disruptive you think killing a guard is. If that's your outlook, then at least kill off his rogue right away and tell him what it's for instead of dawdling for weeks.

Honestly killing someone you interrogated is almost never needless, if you interrogate someone you may as well kill them in most circumstances considering, they can identify you and probably know what your after given the nature of your questions.

if you interrogate a city guard you should kill him since hes going to blow the whistle on any attempts at shenanigans.

>get an item the GM regrets giving you
>it gets stolen in the middle of the night

Can it be done well?

>>54037285
No. Man up and let the PC have something good.

>>54037285
If its a magical item of great renown have the original owner come to retrieve it, they first offer to buy it back from the PC's at a verry generous price, if the PCs refuse a fight breaks out, if they win they deserve to keep the item but it wont be an easy fight, though it needs to be winnable to just make an encounter that cant possibly be beaten.

>enemies who might have had nothing to do with a rando guard kill a PC with no fight off-screen in vengeance

this is bad, at least let him go down fighting if you're gonna punish him. this doesn't teach consequences, this teaches that the dm can be vindictive and kill you off without a roll if he wants to, which doesn't make the players have fun.

>>54034867
I think the most objectionable part there is the "You don't know" bit. It completely violates the basic premise of a roleplaying game, ejecting the player from the game entirely.

>>54037285
Yes, but circumstances matter a lot. If the PC got it entirely on accident, then you can safely have it leave "by accident." If it was a reward/result of PC effort, then you should offer some suitable replacement reward.

Regardless of context, they should be able to investigate and at least try to retrieve the object.

>>54037285
>>54037299
I've had the PCs get something cool, show it off in public, then have a guy come and beat him unconscious before taking his stuff including the item.

Shouldn't have been walking around alone in the part of town where he knew the guards don't go because folks will eat a horse from under you. Also shouldn't have done so much bragging to random people in bars. Also should have bought insurance. Only one PC had ressurection or property insurrance. He's seen the benefits, others have gotten buttmad when they lose shit and it isn't insured.

>>54034867
Consequences of dealing with That GM for sure.

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>>54037647
I like it, reminds me of the Batman animated episode The Man Who Killed Batman.

Flaunt that kind of power and people will challenge you.

>>54037647
Sure showed them.

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>>54035038
>how could an organization that investigates crimes investigate a crime?

>>54037735
>"investigate a crime" means magically find out the killer and track him down when there were no witnesses to the crime
Fuck off.

>>54037776
If they have magic, sure.

>>54037776
>what is speak with dead

Murdering anyone is really fucking stupid when magic exists in your setting.

>>54037794
They could have had access to 21st century forensic technology too.

>>54035324
If your players decide to murder an NPC, you have NO right to refuse them. Now, I know what you're going to say:
>>B-b-b-but muh morals
>>B-b-b-but muh consequences
>>B-b-b-but mommy, forceful interrogation make me scared
Shut up. You shouldn't be DMing. Your players are trying to make something interesting out of your generic, rational setting, and you're throwing it back in their faces. You have NO right to be DMing - just give your notes to one of your players, they can do a better job than you can.
>TL/DR, if you can't handle a murder in a modern setting, you shouldn't be a DM.

A murder is just an extroverted suicide.

>>54037835
This is true, though.

>>54037835
>implying one out of twenty players will step up
I GM because when I suggest someone else doing it my players fucking recoil at the thought. They don't want to put even minimal work into playing the game. If I have to explain how to calculate a save one more time I'm gonna off one of them.

>>54037835
This.
As the GM your work is to guide and immerse the players in an interesting world where they can do what the fuck they want(hopefully staying true to their characters).

the best thing you can do is putting out something interesting from their actions(like, in this, make some shit like a revenge substory of the guard's friends and parents)and definetely NOT killing the player because you didn't liuke how he plays.

This guys should die and the fact people like him can publish shit like this and make money makes me angry.

its literally everything that's wrong in Bad gming.

>>54034867
>Being passive aggressive as a GM

Nigga, you call out dumb shit. Players are monkeys that need to be taught to play well.

>>54034905
That's not even an example. There was no showing going on. There is no way to connect the disappearance of his character with the murder of the guard earlier. No one learns anything.

I would have also killed the rogue. However I would have had the guards who were the guy he murdered's friends parade him naked through the streets and have rioters throw stones at him. Would have been funny as fuck.

>>54034867
Shitty way to do it. Put him against horrible odds due to his previous choices yes, just randomly off his PC like that? Nah. Result would be the same, but the method is very important.

>>54037735
It wasn't even the guards who killed him though

Quite literally no better than saying "Rocks fall, you die" because a player did something you didn't like.

>>54037285
As a total beginner DM (5e), I once gave my Rogue an item that permanently gave him advantage on all DEX checks, at level 2. To say I had zero foresight would be an euphemism.

Here is what went down:
>[Approach the player in private]
>Hey dude, sorry but you know I'm a newbie at DMing. Turns out I really fucked up the game balance
>I need to nerf that ring you have.
>>"Oh. Well fuck, really?"
>Yeah.
>>[Player does not throw a fit, because I do a little bit of screening to not pick total autists.] "That sucks. You just gave me the ring and I was starting to like it but okay."
>The new effect is that you can add 1d4 to one DEX roll, once per long rest, and it can't stack with other d4 bonuses. But trust me, it should still come in handy.
>>"If you say so."

His character woke up to notice the ring's color had dulled a little. And then the problem was solved. The best way to steal an item from a PC in-game is to not do it at all.

>>54034867
>playing in a new campaign
>roll up a rogue
>mostly generic city campaign, interrogating and killing some guards, creating a riot etc
>play for several weeks, we're having fun
>nearing the end of the campaign
>the DM says my character was pulled into an alley and never heard from again
>have no idea where he's going with this
>pretty bummed
>campaign ended pretty badly because of that
>several years later
>read book written by my DM
>writes that he killed off my character because I killed some random guard in an adventure game
>mfw I have no face

>players complain when stupid shit kills them

I think I've talked about before the time my players while traveling talked about killing a camping hill giant (one that told them he just wanted to be left alone) within earshot of the giant and subsequently had their shit pushed in by him. Killed one of them as an example then continued running to make his escape, going back to an area farther down the road where the terrain was to his advantage. The players followed (for some fucking reason) and he butchered the lot of them.

>>54036766
>without ever really explaining why they should have that kind of effect.
I don't know about L5R, but I know decent level characters in D&D are expected to have an impact on local society. As their power increases, more powerful people notice them, same with their fame or infamy.

The whole example OP shows is poorly worded though, or at least should have more building upon it. Say killing the guard understaffs local law enforcement, and crime rises over several sessions. When the riots break out, a group that sees the PC rogue as a rival in their territory decide to take him out, and he knows in part that he's to blame for these guys to even get as powerful as they did in the city. Hitting PCs with karma is GREAT... if they understand it. Otherwise you just come off as an arbitrary dick.

>>54038587
Sounds like you engineered a scenario where you would definitely get a tpk.

Don't act like it's the players' fault for considering killing an NPC. Every single group ever has discussed fighting when it seems necessary. Saying "OH YOU DIDNT SAY 'I WHISPERED IT', ROLL INITIATIVE" and then acting like they asked for it is bullshit. You're a bullshit dm.

>>54037285

No, because that's solving an OOC problem IC. The better choice is to say after a session "I'm a little worried about <item.> I intended it to have <this effect,> but it's having <that effect,> and because of that we aren't really able to do <certain thing.> What can we do to <get back on track>?"

Every time this has come up, the suggestions have been change the effect on the troublesome item or replace it with a more limited item and a sack of gold or smaller item on the side. Which worked great for me because I had buy in.

Secretly, I somewhat hope to someday hear "let's get more stuff that does unintended thing because it's awesome and we want to play in that campaign" but so far the quick, reasonable answer has carried the day. C'est la vie.

>>54038650
Nigga u dumb. It is the players fault to discussing killing an NPC they just met in front of him without even trying to properly hide their intentions, an NPC who hadn't so much as lifted a finger in hostility towards them.

I asked them where they went to talk about it. They moved twenty feet away behind a tree, as a group, right after one of them antagonized the giant (which is why the giant told them he just wanted to be left alone). Of fucking course the giant was trying to listen in, they were acting like a massive group of suspicious fucks and the giant wasn't a retard (hell I even had a full character sheet for him with a part of his backstory involving why he had 12 int, which is extraordinary for a hill giant).

So what? The giant should have just gone "well, they walked 15 feet away and are talking behind a tree right after one of them antagonized me, it's probably nothing, I'll just sit here and not listen in". Even then I told them they could hear the giant moving around his camp and metal clanking while they were talking (he was putting on his gauntlets and helmet to get read for a fight, the players assumed he was messing with his soup pot and didn't even bother to look).

The giant even gave them a second chance by downing one of them before moving on, under the assumption the PCs wouldn't give chase. The PCs followed anyway, dragging a dead body with them, after a guy who just showed he was capable and willing to kill them if need be.

>>54034867
No way do I defend this. Killing off the character rewards the shit player by allowing him to make a fresh one. The PC should have been allowed to continue with a serious permanent handicap, that way he'll never forget.

>>54038752
You engineered and asspulled a situation to fuck over your group. Don't try to justify it. You can't.

>>54038549
>years later
>ambush your DM and pull him into an alley
>put a knife to his throat
>"I'm going to kill you now."
>"W-Why?"
>"You don't know."

Nothing personnel, kid.

Forgetting rule 0 of tabletop gaming: it's about having fun with your friends.

>>54038587
That's the headband of intellect giant right? You are still that guy

>>54038961
>>54039125
reeeeeeeeeeeeeeee why should players receive logical consequences

>>54039142
>"We walk out of earshot to discuss group matters"
>Omg his giant ears heard u with his giant brain. He's giant so he has giant hearing, I wrote it on the sheet, see?! U guys deserve to be tpk'd!

>>54039179
Are you actually unable to hear whispers 20 feet away from you? I have hearing damage and that shit's easy, anon.

https://boards.fireden.net/tg/thread/44523899/#44525272

That was over a year ago and he's still mad players didn't want to roll with his giant character.

>>54037835
Why wouldn't a sizeable town be equipped to take down one murderous adventurer?

Not necessarily disagreeing with you, but this is where game mechanics get in the way of common sense.

>>54039231
That's pretty reasonable.
What isn't is waiting weeks for something to happen to that character, maybe wait a session or two at best.

>>54039125
And you're still a whiny poo baby.

>>54038961
Explain where the asspull is. Explain how being attacked was not their own fault.

>>54039200

No, you can't.

If you can hear it from 20 feet away then it isn't whispering.

I mean you might be able to hear that something is being said, but if it can be parsed from 20 feet away with normal hearing then it not low enough to qualify as whispering, it's just speaking with a lowered voice.

>>54039200
YOU need a headband of intellect because you're a fucking moron.

If you honestly think a 9 Wis monster should be able to automatically hear people whispering out of earshot and behind a tree, then you should have your DMing license revoked. The more details you give, the more you show that you're "that DM".

A -1 modifier to perception rolls would make it pretty hard to pass even a DC 15 check and it shouldn't have been any easier than DC 15. You suck.

You didn't even roll lol.

>>54039179
>20 feet away
>out of earshot
That's not how it works.

>Omg his giant ears heard u with his giant brain. He's giant so he has giant hearing, I wrote it on the sheet, see?! U guys deserve to be tpk'd!
Hearing details of a whispered conversation is DC15. At the distance they were it is DC 17. Hill giants naturally have a +6 to perception before being higher level and further investment. You can retry perception checks as long as the stimuli is still there. This means the giant keeps listening and catches roughly half the conversation. That's EASILY enough.

Base hill giants would have heard them.

>>54039320
>>54039294
Hill Giants have a perception of +6.

Hearing a whispered conversation 20ft away is a DC17, meaning they will hear details on an 11+, or 50% of the time. They have to attempt a perception check each round and can keep doing it to catch details that round (action None + retry rules for perception). So the giant, if he is trying to listen, catches roughly 1/2 the conversation.

You guys are dumb.

>>54037820
>yfw organized crime is the real reason necromancy is illegal

>>54039320
>A -1 modifier to perception rolls would make it pretty hard to pass even a DC 15 check and it shouldn't have been any easier than DC 15. You suck.
Hill giants have a +6 to perception checks.

>>54039214
The majority of the responses in that thread are agreeing with him though. I don't see what your point is.

>>54039320
Nice assumptions there fagtron, I'm not the person you think you're responding to.

>>54039320
Hill giants have 10Wis and +6 to perception, I remember this guy's story, the hill giant was also like a level 3 fighter, so that's even more ranks in perception

>>54039440
>>54039391
>>54039376
>>54039360
Their stats are MUCH worse in 5e and that's what I was referencing. I didn't realize anyone even played Pathfinder anymore. It makes sense to me now why he's a "that gm".

>>54039200
>We want to whisper out of earshot.
>INTENT: Party wants to talk in REALLY, REALLY HUSHED whispers so no one can hear them.
>Obvious outcome: Party talks in barely audible whispers. Giant notices suspicious little men making weird mouth shapes.
>Your shit GMing: Party talks in regular loud whispers everybody can hear, because they're too retarded to know how audible a whisper is, so the giant hears them, roll initiative lol.

When your players do something, and there's a sensible way and a less sensible way to do it, assume it's sensible.
If a character who isn't a literal retard secures his rope to something, don't go "ok, unfortunately you only did a overhand knot and that's not enough". They're adventurers, they know how to fucking whisper silently and how to make simple yet secure fucking knots.

>>54039520
He literally used the rules for hearing whispered conversations. You're saying "the rules shouldn't matter when they hurt PCs".

>>54039540
I'm not a part of that long conversation chain, but I do think whispering is a pretty good example of where rules don't really line of with intent. No matter how high the person you're whispering to's perception is you still set the DC at the same number despite how much more quiet you could have been.
However they already agreed to play a broken game, so whatever

>>54039540
???

He didn't specify a system so I didn't make assumptions. If hill giants do have a fuckmassive bonus to perception in PF then sure, why not, he could conceivably hear whispers this subtle, this far away.
I'd still make him roll, though. And if the players don't know about this ability, also probably give them a chance to notice the giant getting angry. Otherwise that sounds like they're getting dicked over for no conceivable reason. And I think a GM certainly shouldn't punish the players for shit they couldn't have possibly known.

>>54039540
>>54039594
It's more about why does it even need rules?

It's trivial in real life to whisper without someone hearing. It doesn't require skill checks.

>>54039604
So in both cases I specified the players heard the hill giant gearing up and getting ready to fight, and didn't check on what the hill giant was doing. The giant didn't start raging, but started getting dressed (helmet going on, gauntlets going on, etc.). The guy was relatively calm because he was used to folks not taking kindly to giants. I personally thought the PCs would not be shoot first ask questions never on a stranger who didn't so much as try and hurt them.

>If hill giants do have a fuckmassive bonus to perception in PF then sure
They have above average, much better than a human's, but not insane. He could heard bits of the conversation, enough to know he was in danger.

>And I think a GM certainly shouldn't punish the players for shit they couldn't have possibly known.
I am not seeing what information they did not have. They knew the hill giant was a hill giant, they can make knowledge checks to know about hill giants. Heck, they could just try to not immediately act enormously suspicious.

>>54039648
A hill giant's hearing is better than a human's to start (a normal human is gonna have somewhere between -1 and +2 to perception, a hill giant +6, this hill giant +13 because he had full ranks in it). Counting what you can hear vs. what it can is not a fair comparison.

>>54039704
>A hill giant's hearing is better than a human's to start (a normal human is gonna have somewhere between -1 and +2 to perception, a hill giant +6, this hill giant +13 because he had full ranks in it). Counting what you can hear vs. what it can is not a fair comparison.

Then wouldn't that be obvious? Ignore the numbers for a second, think about what the players want to do and what the characters would do. >>54039179 hit the nail on the head.

Overall it sounds like a stupid gotcha. "Haha, you only said you were moving 20 feet away and had but a +4 bonus to your stealth checks! The giant hears you!"

Just tell the goddamn players: "Okay, you want to move far away enough so the giant definitely can't hear you? You do that."

If you still want to keep it mechanical, keep that clear. It doesn't need knowledge checks or anything, just let the players know that whispering so close runs the RISK of the giant hearing. Don't let them do a thing then pull the rug from under them.

>>54034867
And this is one of many reasons I'm glad FFG got L5R away from AEG

>>54039780
Why should you play with training wheels like that, all you want to do is turn the game into 'mother may I'. Players should be able to take actions and suffer consequences of actions without the GM going 'are you sure?' constantly. Better they learn to look before they leap than constantly rely on a meta-danger sense from the GM.

>>54039780
I get what you're saying and agree with you, but you're asking a pathfinder player to not do use the defining trait of pathfinder. I always hated treating skill checks like superpowers (and couldn't be happier with how 5e treats them), but that's what he and the players signed up for

>>54037835
Man, I missed this pasta.

>>54039825
Because whether that's what the player intended or what the character knows, it's trivial to do. There's no need for random chance.

I haven't played 3.x or Pathfinder in years, but this is how I'd handle it in older systems and how I'd handle it in 5E. This is some freak anomaly where there's a very precise obsession with numbers ("How many feet away do you whisper?! I NEED TO KNOW FOR THE DC!")

>>54039895
Players succeeding just because they intend to succeed seems like it defeats the purpose of dice rolls and planning.

>>54037285
If you were going to do that, it would be better to have it broken so it functions at a lessened state, and make getting it fixed a quest that reveals this is actually an artifact of great renown.

Having it stolen feels like its gone. Having it broken feels like its fixable

>>54039912
Well what's the worst case scenario if a player says, "We move out of earshot and discuss it", then they move out of earshot and discuss it?

They came up with a good idea and nothing bad happened as a result. They succeed because they did something that would allow them to succeed.

It's not like you require an Appraise and a Diplomacy check to buy an ale at the tavern, or a Geography check to walk the road back to town.

>>54039958
You must take every opportunity to fuck over the players. Otherwise, you're a bad GM.

>>54040118
You must let events play out based on your player's actions and not take a bias. If they make bad decisions then bad things happen.

Most people are very biased towards not letting bad things happen to PCs.

>>54039440
The most 'That GM' thing from the story was that if I recall, the Giant was also Evil and the party detected him as such, hence the reason for the debate on killing him to start with.

>>54040233
>immediately murder everyone evil no matter the situation is a good position for PCs to take
Hell they don't even know who the guy was. The guy explained he was a mercenary employed by the state or some shit.

>>54039231
Depends on their level of technology, things aren't that simple.

>>54040207
This goes in both directions.

"The giant walks out of earshot to talk with his friends. What do you do?"

"You walk out of earshot to talk with your friends. What do you do?"

Neither takes a whole bunch of rolls to see whether the party knows about giants or the giant knows about humans/elves/dwarves or if they can hear each other or if the +3 terrain bonus matters.

In either case, the intelligent creature(s) would just walk out of earshot of the enemy. As the players or GM intended.

>>54040270
Yeah, whixh was what the whole debate on that other thread centered around. Believe it or not, there's not such thing as an Evil aligned character who's actually good and dindu nothin.

It's an Evil Giant, even if he's minding his own business and the only reason he's Evil is because of war crimes, it's still baiting the PCs into assuming he's some sort of marauding bandit or something.

Having random people be Evil for the sake of it is what makes the thing dickish at all. Evil people are EVIL. If they were good or neutral, they wouldn't be, ya dig?

>>54034867

But...Why not just kill him?

Like, the annoying part is the "You don't know" part. Not "They slit your throat and dump your corpse."

>>54036974

That's some fun b8 there chummo. :)

>>54040361
Yes, but you should investigate rather than shoot first and ask questions later. The guy could have been an evil tax collector, better murder him too.

>>54040439
It's a poor example of cause and effect because the two are almost entirely unrelated. It's trying to to be GM advice and failing.

Why is the cause of this killing one guard? Is that why there's a riot? One guy not being there?

It also doesn't specify that the guards, or the murdered guard's friends, or any of that killed him. Just "enemies of the rogue". It would, in fact, be quite unlikely that it was the guards. How is the rogue's death caused by killing that one guard, instead of anything else? Where's the connection?

>>54040586
Yes, because if they're capital E Evil, then they've done something that by middle ages standards would certainly warrant death, barring some weird magical effect that's only making them appear Evil.

It's blatant bait. You cant weasel out of this by insisting 'Not all Evil people are Evil!'

It's like describing a fire at an orphanage, and then getting upset when your players dump water on it, because it was actually a friendly fire elemental bringing gifts to the kids.

It's extremely misleading, and I don't know how you can't see that it's misleading.

How is that showing consequences if he really railroaded the game to make the player character die?

Actually he railroaded the thing so much that the player was not able to know what happened with his character when the character was not unconscious, a totally stupid thing since the player IS the character.

"You dont know." How the hell someone dont know what happen at his life when he is not unconcious or something like that?

>>54037835
>our players are trying to make something interesting out of you....
>rational setting
How the hell not allowing the player characters to kill npc make the setting rational?

>>54040672
Anon, by pathfinder's standards a malicious j-walker is capital E evil.

Evil for mortals is not that evil. You can actually by pathfinder's standards be evil and a perfectly functional and beneficial member of society. Evil mortals are skirting the edge of the big evil block.

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>>54040810
>Anon, by pathfinder's standards a malicious j-walker is capital E evil.

>>54040823
>>54040823
No but actually, being a hedonist even if you don't hurt anyone but yourself makes you evil. Anyone suffering from addiction is also by definition evil in pathfinder's rule set.

>>54040810
>Evil Evil implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master.

>Neutral People who are neutral with respect to good and evil have compunctions against killing the innocent, but may lack the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others.

Unless this jaywalker is jaywalking specifically for the purpose of causing someone to either swerve and die or possibly hit them in an attempt to swindle money out of them, then no. More likely, they're neutral, or chaotic neutral if they really hate crosswalks that much.

Evil means you are a blight on society and everyone is worse for having you around. That Evil mecenary giant might be fine now, but once the war is over, he's still going to be Evil and willing to commit those war crimes, but now he won't have an outlet to do so.

>>54040865
Post the definition from the rule set.

>>54040865
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/alignment-description/additional-rules/

This page only speaks of harming others as being Evil

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/gameMasteryGuide/drugsAndAddiction.html

This page doesn't mention Evil once.

>>54036183
>if the player skips leg day he loses 1 strenght

what makes this even dumber is that there are so many god damn good ways to handle consequences in this scenario that flow naturally from the situation

guard withheld information/told false information, killing him ensures you'll never know the truth

guard only gave his testimony to the party but for it to count he has to repeat it in court, which he cannot do on the count of him being dead

guard is now dead and was last seen alive in the hands of the party and now the authorities want to know what's going on

or heck even dropping a subtle hint to the more moral party members that there will be no ooc repercussions if they decide to uphold said morals even against a fellow PC

>>54040913
Unless you're a soldier, then you're probably a net benefit for all the killing you're doing. For one nation at least.

>>54041020
Yeah, I'm not arguing with that. A nation could certainly tolerate a few Evil soldiers in its ranks, since they'd be focusing most of their Evil on the enemy during the war.

But of course, for someone like a Paladin who could easily detect Evil, he shouldn't be as tolerant of things like excessive brutality, rape, or torture, even against people from another nation.

And again, it becomes a matter of what they do during peacetime. Someone who is Evil won't stop being Evil just because there isn't a war at that moment. The willingness to harm others just to get what they want still exists there. Unless they make a serious commitment to reform, they're still going to be a very, very bad person.

There are no 'good' Evil people. This should be really easy to understand.

>>54037438
This.

There should be consequences, but if these consequences are simply "your character dies arbitrarily," then that's shitty.

If his behavior is really that disruptive, tell him straight up instead of wasting both of your time. Spending weeks to have your ebin revenge seems retarded.

>>54041071
This hill giant apparently traveled as a representative for his tribe to hire themselves out with the "there is always a war somewhere" attitude.

>>54041103
Meaning that some day, he might align himself with another nation and start brutalizing your countryside. Certainly a good reason to consider killing the war criminal.

You're trying really hard to downplay the fact that this guy is an Evil giant and that the party had every right to be suspicious and biased against him.

>>54040970
Found the fuckhead.

>>54041152
Nah yeah eventually killing him would probably be the end state of affairs. Killing a guy or talking about killing him within earshot and not expecting the guy to retaliate is dumb.

>>54041202
Yeah, I'm not arguing that they weren't dumb to discuss killing someone nearby, or that the giant was wrong for attacking them. That's fine.

It's only the idea of this being some poor innocent giant that they had no reason to hate that I draw issue with. Unless you make it very clear beforehand, players are going to rightfully assume that someone pinging as Evil is bad news and act accordingly.

>>54037647
>not having the BBEG steal it from the players and laugh in their face

>>54041252
>BBEG

None for me, thanks.

>>54041185
>if the player misses an obvious joke he loses 1 intelligence

>>54041387
>not having recurring rival characters
I mean mowing down nameless mooks forever is cool I guess. Compelling stories of conflict need a face for the enemy.

Players need a Red Baron, or a Moby Dick. You should be trying to write Star Wars for your players, not Crime and Punishment.

>>54041581
He's memeing you.

>>54041252
Ugh.

>>54034867
>implying I would ever defend John Wick
Fuck you, OP. I consider that to be a personal insult!

>>54039780
>blaming DM for not equipping party with "Talisman of not overlooking the bleeding obvious" to force them to make appropriate lore check to determine what they know about giants' hearing so as to move far enough away...

>players know they're wanted men
>players know bounty hunters are after them
>PC goes off alone with a child after the kid tells him that he knows where to find a safe safe in the town
>reveal, it wasn't a kid but a childlike halfling
>halfling pulls a gun, says don't shut up
>before he can even finish his sentence the PC tries to initiate combat
>halfling fires with a named bullet he was saving for his threat
>was gonna tell the PC he had a named bullet and it could shoot him dead, character didn't wait
>PC dies
>halfling shoves body into bag of holding and runs off before the rest of the party shows up
>PCs worth more alive and as a package, planned on gentle reposing the corpse for a while
>player furious I would dare use a named bullet against him

>>54045261
Any setting where instant-kill bullets are a cheap enough commodity to be used by random bounty hunters sounds stupid. Did the Halfling have named bullets for every member of the party, or was the just a massive coincidence (read asspull)?

>>54034920
>How is that showing consequence?
They had a campaign that turned dark because a player wanted to throw murder into interrogations and so on. This went on for weeks, culminated in city-wide fires and riots, and as the threads of the game were tied up, the GM let them reap what they sowed.

>>54045894
What exactly is the point in making up a bunch of balogna to justify a shitty anecdote from a shitty RPG manual?

>>54036816
>is more about making the players work than about being straight up dicks to them

>PC is superhero whose player paid points to make him immune to all disease and poisons
>Wick still has him get affected by the special plague but the super-immunity only makes the cure ineffective and the PC dies
>Wick writes this like he's the most clever person ever
Fuck off. Wick is a cunt and his advice belongs in the trash.

>>54045943
Not everything in the book is good, but some of his advices are good, especially in interactive local worldbuilding.

>>54045935
>making up
Mate. Read it. There's baloney here, but I didn't bring it, and I ain't eating it.

>a PC rogue needlessly murdered a guard he was interrogating
>didn't even say anything about it over the next few weeks
>as the story threads were coming to a close
>and the city was burning from an internal riot
>enemies of the rogue PC pulled him into an alley during the chaos

>If the world is crumbling around them, and the PCs choose mercy over vindictive slaughter, their actions can change the world. But if the PCs choose to murder in the name of the Emperor simply because the law says they can, their code of Bushido is meaningless, and Rokugan fills with people who espouse the principle of “Might makes Right.” The PCs should slowly and subtly find themselves face to face with NPCs exhibiting behaviors very similar to theirs. When the PCs encounter poor manners and negativity flooding every corner of the Emerald Empire, they may begin to see causality.

None of it was sudden, and while none of it was explicitly and out of character mentioned to the players that their actions were affecting the world around them (who the fuck needs this reminder, anyway?), NPCs responded as the PC rogue dragged the world into a darker place.

>>54047141
Mate, there's one big fucking problem.

The rogues player didn't get to know what happened to his character. From the players perspective, his character just stopped existing. He wasn't told he was pulled into an alley and shanked by the guards friends. He wasn't told he had a rag stinking of chemicals shoved over his face, roll a fort save, fail, your character never wakes up.

His player was just told the character didn't fucking exist anymore, and that's bullshit of the highest order.

>>54047182
>From the players perspective, his character just stopped existing.
Yeah, at the very end of the campaign. Everything was being wrapped up, characters included. Murdering and edgelording just happened to result in a less favourable wrap up.

>>54047141

Doesn't that seem kind of nonsensical? Like, in a game where you're playing mostly normal people, your actions don't affect the mood of the world.

I mean, Lone Wolf (and cub) honorably slaughters his way across most of Japan, and it doesn't become a blood-soaked battlefield. It's still Japan. (To use an example.)

It sounds more like the GM getting upset the players aren't toeing the line.

>>54045943
>I could maintain the same strategy for the Champions game, or I could adopt a much more heroic mentality. I decided to do both. Inspired by Frank Miller’s Born Again series (a book that every superhero fan should read), I decided to keep the rules the way they were (meaning characters were very difficult to kill) while hitting them in places they never knew they could be hurt. But I wouldn’t kill them.
Maybe read the fucking book? I'm not saying that part was gold, but it was like 5 sentences and very vague. You sound overly butt mad about this forgettable paragraph. As >>54046974 said, it's not all good, so I guess gratz on cherry picking something that should have been left on the editing room floor and interpreting it as "how to kill your players' characters" and not "how to make your players sweat."

>>54045943

I agree. The GM, in this case, is not playing fair.

The most fun I've ever had as a GM is being completely objective, and letting players do absolutely whatever they want while the world responds accordingly.

It sounds silly and reductive to go "Actually, your super-immunity KEEPS YOU from (this positive thing)." I mean, there's a lot of stuff Wick does that smacks of railroading to prove a point, while the real fun of GM'ing is seeing where your players end up.

>>54034867
>Showing consequences
>The consequences had literally nothing to do with the action taken, and there was no explainable link between cause and effect
>The player has not been shown anything
Really activates my almonds.

>>54048176
>Doesn't that seem kind of nonsensical?
Depends on the game and setting. Note that the example was "Western-style fantasy campaign" - not a game of L5R. It's not hard to assume there was an alignment chart involved, too.

>>54048366
See >>54047141, almond activator.

>>54036476
>>54036766
I see what both of you are saying, and I'm going to present my own opinion.

There's nothing wrong with adapting the theme of an ongoing game based on the actions of the players. If they act hardcore and gritty, going with the flow and making shit more hardcore and gritty isn't bad by default.

What makes this author retarded, however, is the absurd notion that there's anything even remotely related to """causality""" going on here. Adapting the tone to the players may be a justifiable move, but jerking yourself off and pretending like you're educating them on cause/effect or some shit is ridiculous.

I'd say what he advocates for isn't wrong, but his perspective on why it isn't wrong is absurd.

>>54048442

I agree with this anon.

>>54048442
The problem with saying there's nothing to show cause and effect is that you have the initial turning point, the end point, and the reasoning on how to go from one to the other. You don't have the minutia in between because it's assumed the reader is more capable of figuring out what works for them, given a the seed of an idea.

>>54045375
> Did the Halfling have named bullets for every member of the party, or was the just a massive coincidence (read asspull)?
He had one because he targeted one of the party members then cast the spell to make the named bullet once they were alone.

When you're level 10 expect a few level 10 bounty hunters to come after you.

>>54037776
>Magically find out the killer
In a world with magic? Seems fuckin' likely.

>>54038521
This is a damn good example of how to properly handle ANY situation that comes up between a GM and his players, thank fucking god for you.

I hate the idea that a GM should resolve issues with passive aggressive horseshit all without uttering a single word or explanation.

If you need the player to cooperate, just fucking tell them. Jesus.

>>54034867
>"hey, what happened to my character"
>"you don't know"
Kek.

>>54048548
Explain how killing the guard had a tangible and large enough effect that karma itself warped the city around fucking the player open.

Yeah, we have "reasoning on how to go from one to the other", but it's fucking stupid reasoning.

If you're going to ramble about cause and effect, there needs to be an actual correlation between the cause and the effect, or else it isn't logical.

If I swat a roach in my kitchen and then later on get crushed by a giant, you can say there is some thematic correlation, sure.

But the idea that swatting the roach had ANYTHING to do with my later demise is idiotic. Maybe it's a semantic argument, but pretending like any of these situations portray "consequences" or "cause and effect" is where the issue lies. That's the whole point. The problem. Get it?

What you're attached to in this situation is the idea of thematic cohesion and parallels being drawn, but that still has fuckall to do with direct consequences from the player's actions.

>>54038961
Go out and try to discuss how you should attack someone when you're 15 feet from them and see if you don't get your face caved in. You play stupid games you win stupid prizes. The group should have had more situational awareness when dealing with a potentially hostile giant. They should not have given chase. Why go to such lengths to defend dumb behavior?

>>54040586
What the fuck is wrong with murdering an evil tax collector if he pings Evil? Are you defending Evil, son?

>>54040913
Evil in the terms of these games literally just means that you're willing to sacrifice the good of other people for your own gain, it does not necessarily correlate with being a fucking serial killer.

You can be a psychopath that genuinely sees nothing wrong with making other people suffer for your own amusement and ping evil. But that doesn't mean that you're also by default walking around deserving of a straight up fucking death sentence, because you may not have actually done anything wrong.

Your argument is basically that it's okay to murder someone for the content of their character rather than their actions, which is "THOUGHT-CRIME BAD" territory.

>>54045375
For reference named bullets auto threaten a crit so with his weapon he was shooting at 4d8+96 on the crit. He was shooting at a sorcerer with 70HP.

>>54048741

Yeah, if someone pings Evil, HE'S REALLY FUCKING EVIL.

You need to be about 5 HD, a worshipper of a dark god, or some horrible abomination to ping evil from a casual use of Detect Evil. This is exactly the kind of shit a Paladin's supposed to be forewarned of.

It's the whole "I sense a great disturbance in the force. He's really evil!"

>>54034920
It shows the consequences of playing with a terrible GM.

>>54048637
You start with a misconception.

This isn't about how some GM finished a campaign by killing a PC weeks after they killed a guard for no raisin.
This is about how a PC started off by killing a guard, and progressively took the dark path at every moral intersection, until the campaign ended weeks later with riots and fires citywide, and that PCs death.

If you're going to ramble at all, you need to get that one straight, at least.

>>54048973
>and progressively took the dark path at every moral intersection
Where exactly is this said? Or even implied?

>>54048973

But that still seems nebulous, because he was referring to a specific incident, not a long series of evil behavior. Also, his comeuppance isn't really related to what he was doing.

Like, the impression I got was that the world became worse because the PCs were generally bad people, not that the PCs actively made things worse. It's like level-scaling in Skyrim.

>>54037835
t. An entitled piece of shit.

>>54048973
You're making shit up to argue for your point.

Reread it. The example was explicitly about showing the player the consequence of that act.

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>>54049005
>But that still seems nebulous, because he was referring to a specific incident, not a long series of evil behavior.
Nope. Started with a single incident, but it's retarded to take that single description and run with it, then ignore the rest of the entry when it says things like;

>The PCs should slowly and subtly find themselves face to face with NPCs exhibiting behaviors very similar to theirs.

>>54048231
"How to make your player sweat", Wick-style, slightly exagerrated:

1) Tie them to their chairs
2) Take out pincushions
3) Make rolls for them, on an arbitrary number they get a needle stuck somewhere in their body

Ignoring the rules, character abilities, the setting, any and all of the good manners there are, introducing a precious little psychotic DMPC to every game you run, bullying your players into accepting your bullshit when you can get away with that - fuck that shit, it's very similar to what happens when an edgy teen plays pretend with his pre-schooler sister and her friends.

>>54034867
>you die
Can I roll for initiative?
>no you die
Can I make a dodge save?
>no you die
Can I use uncanny dodge?
>no you die
Why not?
>because I said so
Could I have prevented this?
>yes but probably no and I'm not going to tell you how

>>54048822
What's wrong with that? DnD has objective morality, therefore, destroying any evil is objectively good.

>>54049534
Torture is also good if done by a good deity. We've seen this before.

Good and evil are defined by gods who don't give a shit about you.

>>54049489
>Ok, you manage to dodge and escape. That was still the end of the campaign.

>>54049558
Too bad, they get to define reality.
Also, "Selflessness is good" leads to things like Orwellian party being full of good people, since they all deny themselves to keep the party at power, or Borg being good since they literally destroy selfishness.

>>54049660

Here's how I know you haven't actually read any of the books.

>the players are working for a gang
>have been participating in a gang war
>been fucking up another gang
>various things have happened but they decide to betray their current gang for the one they've been fighting
>they make contact with the gang
>get a letter back saying "If you wish to speak, come here, just you lot."
>they arrive (it's an abandoned warehouse district in the docks)
>arrive at the correct warehouse
>a guy outside asks them to give him their weapons before they meet the gang leader
>the players just hang over their weapons (with no back up) and agree to have the wizard put on anti-casting gloves (gloves with rigid fingers)
>arrive in
>door shut behind them
>gangleader is there with his men
>tells the men to kick the PC's teeth in
>players freak out, ask why
>for reference the PCs had killed the gang leader's brother already and dumped the body to prevent resurrection, they knew they had and the gang leader knew it was them
>gang leader says "I'm getting revenge for my brother, I'm surprised you agreed to unarm. I was expecting you all to put up a fight and try and run." (he had men in other warehouses near by to try and ambush the PCs if they refused to disarm)
>PCs say they were just doing it on orders
>gang leader goes "Traitors and cowards to boot, won't even own up to what you've done."
>the PCs get their teeth kicked in
>gang leader plans on stringing them up publicly as an example
>end session on them being put into holding cells
>players enormously pissed off

Shit man, I don't fucking know what they expected.

>>54034972
No but now I want that. Is that a thing and if so does anybody have links?

>>54035438
You dare question Gygax?

Dweomer, dweomer.

>>54049638

> "Great, I flee the city and live like a King off my ill-gotten gains."

I mean, that's the point of wanting to survive, right? To get a happy ending.

>>54055194
Shit GM detected

>>54037776
>"investigate a crime" means magically find out the killer and track him down when there were no witnesses to the crime

In a Fantasy world that's most likely D&D because "rogue" is written like its class name, Rogue?

Yes, that's exactly how it works. Very astute of you to notice.

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>>54034920
I think the GM would fail this test

>>54036974
>>54035324
Please you don't have to be a troll 24/7

>>54057729
Looks like one of the butthurt players arrived.

>>54037285
Talk to the player about it?

This item was a bit overpowered, can we solve it somehow? Like it gets stolen, or it's cursed?
Say it's cursed then you and the player can plan in secret a plotline for it for the rest of the party.

>>54045894
>>54047141

Give up Wick. You're a bad GM. That's all there is to it.

>>54055194
You played the gang enormously stupid, anon.
Gangs don't put revenge before profit, and why would they ignore the opportunity for the wealth of information they could bring AND the chance to use them on their rivals for petty vengeance?
I have problems with GMs playing criminal elements like they are stupid, it shows just how much they don't know about how they operate. If the gang leader was so stupid as to put personal shit before the gang, then he would not be leading it and the gang would not be anything of consequence.

>>54037647
insurance in a fucking fantasy game. Fucking resurrection insurance. You're the kind of person who makes fantasy stifling and stupid. fuck you.

>>54058226
>thinking the god of commerce wouldn't run insurance rackets
Come on m8.

>>54058150
I'm not him, but that's insane. Of course gangs put revenge and petty shit over profit. Gang members are typically fucking idiots.

Look at Aaron Hernandez. Guy had millions and a position on the best team in football, but he had to prove he was hard and kill people over petty shit. So he ended up hanging himself in his cell.

You can say corporations or scheming nobles don't take petty revenge over profit, or even a particularly intelligent kingpin. But for your average gang that kind of shit is to be expected.

>>54058150
Did you not read what I wrote? That's why they didn't kill the PCs and imprisoned them instead. They're going to pump them for information next.

Also:
>a gang will always choose profit above revenge
That's retarded. That's saying a gang leader will never act emotionally even in the face of his brother's murders.

Even then they're still gonna make use of the PCs before they die by pumping them for information then stringing them up to serve as an example.

>>54058150
Fucking what? Are you retarded?

Do you have literally no connection to reality or don't know anything about mob history. Shit like people ruining their leadership position in pursuit of revenge actually happened, fucking constantly.

>>54049534
It's objective morality, but you can still switch sides. Your morality can always change, and they haven't done anything.

Someone pinging evil definitely means they're a possible hazard, for sure. But it has no bearing on whether or not they deserve death, because they may even easily be able to become reformed. When you just strike them down like a rabid asshat, you remove that possibility. Sure you've killed someone evil, but you also may have killed someone who hasn't done anything wrong and may have been able to become good with nary a splotch of sin on him.

The point as that you don't know either way until you actually investigate.

By the way, guess how I know you're a communist.

>>54058432
>Evil
>Hasn't done anything wrong
How does that work then?

>>54055194
I had something similar happen to a player.

He was part of an undercover police unit, investigating an underground casino. He ended up murdering one of his teammates because the mole in his unit that actually affiliated with a different gang convinced him that his other, clean comrade was responsible for the other members of the unit getting discovered and picked off one by one. Obviously the player didn't try and talk to the innocent guy, he just killed him and played into the mole's hands.

The mob that ran the casino restrained the player's character, basically told him that they don't ban weapons for a reason, but that he needed to be mildly punished before they'd let him leave the casino. Player agreed, reasoning that allowing himself to be punished and then being let go would be way easier and more civil than trying to fight his way out.

Player gets there, allows himself to be tied to a chair, gang enforcer is just planning on hitting him with a rod once or twice. Just then, a message from the mole (The last guy in the player's unit and pretty much an evil piece of shit.) arrives. "Check his phone." is all it says.

Player had been having open communications with the mole in the casino about the operation, and hadn't been erasing the sensitive messages off of his device. The mole actually checked his phone earlier to confirm this under the guise of getting up to speed on the player's previous conversations.

Gang leader asks the player for his phones password after taking it. Player gives the password to him instantly because he's got a short ass memory for the stuff he outright said over text message.

Next thing you know, the player is getting full blown murdered, ends up freeing himself, but ultimately succumbs to his injuries and can't escape.

He was pretty upset, but not angry, he was just depressed. I told him he should be paranoid and maintain attention to detail because that was the kind of situation he was in, but he dropped the ball.

>>54058554
Evil is literally just a moral perspective. It's objective in-universe, but it is not a permanent essence that gets imbued into people.

I don't know why this is so hard for you.

>>54058150
>Gangs don't put revenge before profit

You don't know shit about gangs. Whatever the opposite of a gangbanger is, you're it.

>>54058432
With morality like D&D, communists would be objectively good, since they're selfless, altruistic and all that jazz. And people pinging evil aren't a "possible" hazard, they are "very likely to happen" hazard - the lower hazard level is reserved for neutrals. You can check the rest of the thread on that.
While the possibility of evil people reforming means that good may be maximised by somehow causing them to, elimination of evil is, by itself, a good act. It's only a question of what you see as more effective in service to good - smiting more evil people till they are dead or turning less evil people to good in the same timeframe.

Do I evoke the urge to kill jewish commisars in you, anon?

>>54058682
Why would you have to tie up a guy who's willing to undergo punishment though

>>54058754
How do you ping Evil if you haven't ever done anything Evil.

>>54058763
A lot of people spaz out when they realize that they're going to get their shin whacked with an iron rod. It's easier to walk into that room than to not freak out when you actually see the pipe coming.

>>54058783
Let me outline a scenario to you.

There is a 15 year old in a village that is neutral evil. He's neutral evil because he's a bit of a rancid asshat that is extremely bitter about being a peasant, and the only thing that really makes him feel better is to bully the younger kids around town and constantly ditch his chores and insult his parents. He pings as Evil because he is genuinely incredibly selfish and has contempt for other people.

A Paladin who is passing through town pings him as evil.

QUIZ TIME! What does a non-retarded Paladin do?

>A. Whip out his greatsword and strike the teenager down as quickly as possible because evil needs to be purged
>B. Walk up to the kid, explain what the Paladin noticed, and try to resolve the problem with words because the teenager doesn't deserve to be murdered just because he's a cunt

Pinging evil does not mean you're literally fucking Aku.

>>54058789
But it's a test of loyalty. Staying when you see the pipe is part of it. Also at that point the door would be locked, the torturer would put his hand on your shoulder, and as you turn around he'd ask with a grin if you're not having second thoughts before going to work on your kneecap. And if you do hit back there's a squad of goons outside the door ready to make things worse for you.

I dunno, seems like the chair tying was a bit of a dick move.

>>54058878
No, that kid is neutral, because he's just a dumb peasant who hasn't done anything of note in his life.

>>54058878
Okay but in this scenario the kid is Evil because he HAS done things wrong.

>>54058884
All that shit is true, but it should also be noted the enforced was a bit of a sociopath and was meant to be a minor antagonist, and also that the punishment was simply taking place in the torture room because GENERALLY nobody agreed to do it willingly. Strapping him in was almost like tradition the enforcer didn't think about.

In addition to that, the point I was trying to get across to the player was that he was being incredibly submissive, and that was what was landing him in hot water. He murdered his teammate because the traitor simply asked him too, he let himself be strapped down just because the Enforced asked him too, etc. He wouldn't argue, he just did as he was told. If he had said one sentence in his defense asking to not be strapped in, I would have allowed him to make an easy social roll to not be put in such a bad position. But he consistently didn't ever stand up for anything.

>>54058762
>communists
>selfless
>altruistic

Christ. And all that self-fellating while also advocating for the wholesale murder of "evil" people? Do you lack even the tiniest shred of self awareness? Nice assumption, BTW, that the guy advocating for reason must be a soulless murderer like you.

Is this how it works, though? An insidious Evil religion makes Good people ping as Evil for its useful idiot rabble?

>>54058998
That does make sense.

>>54058991
Well, obviously you're going to do SOME shit wrong if you're evil, because your actions are going to correspond with your personality.

What I'm getting at though is that not all evil is created equal.

You can be evil just by being a soldier that enjoys killing too much, but that doesn't mean you're totally fucking diabolic and need to be struck down on sight.

The issue is that what's being argued for is that being evil should be an automatic death sentence; I believe that to be totally ridiculous, and if I had a Paladin carry on like that they'd drop down to Chaotic Good and then to Chaotic Neutral incredibly fucking fast.

And I'll reiterate again that morality can change, obviously it can. Even if someone IS a murderer, if they're defenseless and you could simply restrain them, it's very questionable to just strike them down with no chance at redemption unless you're just that ruthless and bloodthirsty.

>>54059005
Oh, please, do tell me about how you spared the orc baby. All of that seemingly milquetoast hesistance in the face of evil, together with doubt in Gods-given power to discern it from good, tells me all I need to know about silver-tongued demagogues like you. People like you think they know better than Gods themselves, and this sort of hubris is what feeds the evil.

>>54059107
>Even if someone IS a murderer, if they're defenseless and you could simply restrain them, it's very questionable to just strike them down with no chance at redemption unless you're just that ruthless and bloodthirsty.

This is where playing a Paladin is actually pretty good. Because a Paladin must not only serve Good, but also the Law. And the Law demands that the murderer be put to death.

But yes, I really loathe this two-dimensional view on alignment. I'm glad I have players who get that, too. I've had one guy play a character who was "too dumb to know he's Evil", and basically did everything he did just to get more "shinies". Now I have one who's basically a follower of Khorne crossed with a Jehova's Witness. The blood must flow, but they're not stupid enough to antagonize people who would happily hire them to make the blood flow.

>>54059276
You suck at roleplaying.

>>54038961
Nigga you really dumb

>>54057695
Now we're just wandering into pure conjecture and assumption on what the rogue has available.

>>54058148
And you're forgetting that this wasn't written by Wick.

>>54058878
Being a bit of an asshole does not make you ping as Evil. Partly because that's not drastic enough to shift your alignment away from neutral, and partly because you have to actually get some levels or be important to register on the thing.

Assuming the kid did ping as Evil though? That probably means he's done some pretty drastic stuff. His bullying has likely put other kids at severe risk to their lives, like locking them in a shed during winter until they almost died of cold, or shoving someone down a rocky hill and breaking their arm. He feels no remorse for these acts, and on top of that, he would still feel no remorse if one of these kids had actually died from his actions, since their life is less important than his enjoyment of their pain.

That's what being Evil is, and that's what you're not understanding.

There are not Evil people who are decent people. If they were alright, they'd be Neutral.

>>54037820
>setting where every podunk guardsman death has a legion of spellcasters going full csi
Not even FR has magic that proliferated.

>>54039361
that should seriously be used as a plot point

>>54034867
>I told him "You don't know"
Yeah, I think he would GM, because he is that character. Does the GM think that all people who are kidnapped get their minds suddenly erased Men in Black style? When they pulled him into the alleyway did they break his spine, pull out his eyes, and stab his ears? Because then I'd have a much easier time accepting "Yeah, you were just dragged off into an alleyway, but you don't know what happened to you"

>>54058878

But that's not enough for him to ping Evil, by RAW. If he pings Evil, he's likely a diabolist, a murderer or a rapist. Or Damien from the Omen.

>>54058682

Wait, is that from Weaver Dice Miami? If it is, I like the artist guy in that campaign. The Neil Gaiman one.

>>54063284
Not to mention it was literally weeks later
The only person, the ONLY PERSON who would think of this as showing consequences in this scenario is the shitty gm

>>54060686
That line of crap could only spill from the mouth of John Wick. I don't give a shit if it first spilled out of his mouth and into the ears of an idiot dumb enough to think it was good before spilling from said idiots mouth onto that page, it's Wick's fault that atrocity was ever printed in that book.

>>54063377
Yeah, I run it. Surprised to see it recognized, but I guess Worm is a thing on /tg/.

Not trying to talk shit about Amphitheater or anything, just citing it as a pretty similar example of cause/effect in a gang scenario.

Not a specifically calling out that player in particular, but a shocking amount of people roleplay without a clear understanding of theory of mind, IE, the fact that it's not a video game with video game AI, and therefore NPCs come up with their own plots and ideas, which, because I'm a devious fuck that likes writing devious fucks, are pretty involved.

In his defense, his planned character arc was essentially that he wanted to start out super naive and get harder as time went on, but unfortunately that was a really poor idea. I even warned him his first session was going to be particularly hazardous.

My plan for his character arc was essentially that, depending on how things went down in the casino, I was going to have him embark on a journey to root corruption out of the PRT, either within the PRT itself, or as a vigilante if he managed to not catch the mole and got framed (Which is what would have happened if actually survived.)

Alas, I'm pretty bloodthirsty as a GM, and he really maneuvered himself into a bad, BAD spot.

By the way, in private messages the guy that plays Oberon pretty much outlined his chuuni fictional universe as something Michael Moorcock would write. Oberon is definitely my favorite to run, I'm actually really glad I rolled some background dice to have the PRT show up quick, or else he would have been splattered across the sidewalk, most likely.

>>54035462
>the concepts of objective morality and non-relative truth are surprising to me
Wouldn't happen to frequent tumblr, would you?

You come across a sleeping man at the side of the road wrapped in his cloak. He appears to have nothing besides a rucksack. From what you can see he has a shaved head and appears to be human. For some reason you cast detect evil. He pings as evil.

Is the correct course of action to murder the man in his sleep? He was wearing an evil medallion under his clothes over his heart, those who murdered before investigating murdered a good man (a priest in fact) taking an evil spirit trapped in a medallion to be exorcised.

>>54064578
It would ping the amulet, not the man.

>>54064877
Presumably wearing the amulet suffuses your aura with evil.

>>54065347
What a weird presumption.

>>54064578

But the amulet is the one that pings evil. Even at a casual sweep, it would be obvious.

>>54065714
This isn't a videogame, the spell doesn't apply colorful outlines to things.

The first round of concentrating, all you get is 'yup, there's evil in the direction you're looking'
Second round gets you 'there are X sources of evil in this direction and the strongest one is Y strength'
Then finally on the third round and beyond you get 'here is where the evil is coming from'. Which is the sleeping guy.

>>54065788
This, damn.

It allows people to sense evil, but unlike in Baldur's Gate or whatever the fuck, it's not like it makes people look like they're glowing red to you. Glowing red outline is just a visual indicator because the player needs an indicator to be able to use the ability, because they can't feel the evil resonating off their fucking skin like a Paladin can.

You just feel something sinister emanating from them. When you look at them, you get the sense that you're looking at something fucked up. It's a 6th sense that makes you feel powerful instincts about what you're observing.

They don't get a blinking red outline or some retarded shit.

>>54065486
Right. Word of hypothetical is, "He pings as evil."

Going with that rather than railing against the given circumstances is being weird? No.

>>54065788
So what? A person is going to feel different as "evil" than an amulet on someone's person. You wouldn't mix them up when detecting evil.

>>54067841
Unless you're told you do. Which you have.

>>54068145
I don't care about DM fiat when it doesn't make sense.

>>54064877
>>54065714
You get number, direction, presense, and strength. You literally sense evil in the direction of his heart. Detect evil doesn't give you exact location and never has.

>>54067841
It literally doesn't. By the spell evil from spells, objects, and creature give the same results.

>>54068363
You're the one wanting the rules to change to help you not have to think before murdering a sleeping man.

>>54064578
Ha, fucking got'em! That'll show those idiot players!

>asked what happened to his character

Motherfucker if he's at that table he is his character. If he's no longer controlling or see through that character he's either dead or in a coma

If a DM wants to kill of a character okay go ahead but that doesn't mean they get to do it by taking away player agency. If that rogue is alive that player can control him.

>>54058150
revenge sounds like something many kind of mafias would do and it's not like the PC group made themselves look very reliable and trustworthy from what that DM said.

>>54064578
Congrats on making an even dumber trap for the playera than the 'dindu nuffin' Evil giant guy.

A Good aligned preiest should also know muxh better than to go around wearing an Evil medallion, since it's probably cursed and also would cause misunderstandings such as this.

So sure, I still kill him, since somebosy wearing an Evil amulet while asleep might just be possessed by it or something. My Paladin falls. You got me with your little trick. You feel like a big man now?

>>54064578
Killing someone in his sleep seems kind of evil though.

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>>54034950
That's John Wick's thing.
He acts like he's an alpha male, but he's really the same fat unattractive nerd with a literal neckbeard as we make fun of on here all the time and tries to compensate for it with "nerd macho" behavior.

As one anon so succinctly put it;
>"This is his picture. You know the kind of person he looks like? Well he is EXACTLY the kind of person he looks like."

>>54069201
>>54068953
The guy isn't a priest, he's a carrier. He's meant to carry it because he is pure of heart. You just murdered Frodo.

>>54069695
Frodo wasn't wearing the ring all the time. Sure, he had it around his neck, but that just means he has the sense to not wear it in the way it's supposed to be worn all the time.

That medallion would be better off in a pocket or a locked box held somewhere else on their person, at which point it should be clear from the direction not pointing towards their center of mass that it isn't indicating them.

But sure, you can have your cheap 'gotcha' moment. After all, a Paladin should instantly assume every random sleeping hobo that pings as Evil is actually a Good guying carrying an Evil artifact of extreme Evil

>>54069836
>After all, a Paladin should instantly assume every random sleeping hobo that pings as Evil is actually a Good guying carrying an Evil artifact of extreme Evil
The point is that murdering random travelers in their sleep with no investigation beyond 'detect evil, evil coming from body' is absolute buttfuck retarded. This sort of 'shoot first, ask questions never' attitude will fuck you over eventually because of situations like this guy who are carrying evil things, or because someone cast an evil spell for some reason, or because an anti-paladin died several days ago where ever you're detecting.

>>54069836
Doesn't have to be extreme evil. Even a CL1 evil item pings as evil.

>>54069868
>This sort of 'shoot first, ask questions never' attitude will have the DM fuck you over eventually because he thinks its so clever

>>54070034
Bonus points for him fucking you over if you try to be less shoot first and more investigative because hahaha you dumbass why did you think you could trust them at all.

>>54070067
I love when that happens.

>>54069868
>Carrying an evil item for some reason
Why would an unqualified hobo even carry such an item, and why wouldn't this item be identified as the source of the evil aura?

>Cast some evil spell for some reason
Why is someone who casts an evil spell not evil? Did the hobo cast the genocide spell by accident or something?

>Anti-paladin died several days ago wherever you're detecting
And the paladin only noticed it when the hobo happened to pass by there? Because of course an innocent hobo would choose an alley that is tainted with unholy aura to the point where even the rats avoid it for his afternoon nap, right?

The "detect and smite" attitude is entirely seemly for a paladin and that's exactly what makes them scary. The innocent have nothing to fear, but nobody is truly innocent. They're just less guilty.

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>>54058150
I'll echo all the others in this thread in saying that you are *ABSOLUTELY WRONG*.
Sure, gangland "honor" is mostly a bullshit concept. But reputation is huge, and the kind of guy who lets his blood get murdered and then cuts a check to the killers is not gonna last long.
Hell, this guy is being remarkably smart, he's horribly punishing the pcs in front of the gang to show them that anyone who messes with him pays the price, but he's also keeping them alive for later use. A lot of idiot bangers would have just offed the pcs.

>>54070426
We're not talking about a homeless guy in an alley, we're talking about a traveler on the side of the road wrapped in his cloak. Presumably the paladin only tried to detect evil after seeing the random guy.

>>54070426
>Why is someone who casts an evil spell not evil? Did the hobo cast the genocide spell by accident or something?
Let's say he cast infernal healing because it's the only healing spell wizards can cast. There are also several combat spells that are evil and no more harmful than other combat spells (making someone experience enormous pain is evil vs. blowing them up which isn't).

>>54070584
>He cast infernal healing
>Because he's a Good aligned Wizard and not a priest
>And he's carrying this dangerous Evil amulet to somewhere to destroy it
>Anf he just finished killing an anti-paladin trying to stop him before pausing to rest.

Well, then maybe this Wizard should use his incredibly high intelligence to realize that he would ping Evil in 50 different ways for sleeping there, and do something to avoid that.

Alternatively, since he did all of this, that means the Paladin would detect 3 sources of Evil in range, which would be a very good cue that something was up.

It doesn't stop being a cheap 'gotcha' by the DM by the way

>>54072036
Now you're just purposefully being obtuse to try and justify murdering someone in their sleep with absolute minimal effort investigation.

>>54072071
Just like you're being purposefully convoluted to try and engineer scenarios where people ponging as Evil aren't actually Evil, no matter how little sense it makes.

But you want a concecion? Fine, my Paladin wakes him up, tells him that he detected him as Evil and is thus going to kill him unless he has a good defense. Then this guy has his free action talking to try and explain himself.

Paladins should be honorable anyway, so waking them up from their sleep is the least you can do to make it 'fair'

>>54072370
>frodo is now a contrived situation
>frodo makes no sense

>>54070426
>and that's exactly what makes them scary. The innocent have nothing to fear, but nobody is truly innocent. They're just less guilty.
wew kid, I hope this is bait
this reads like someone who jacks off over bad watchman rorschach fanfiction

>>54072960
There are countless other scenarios that expose how stupid "detect evil, smite, and ask questions later" is even if the person is evil.
The townspeople are going to be pissed if you murder their fairly elected and popular mayor in the night even in you say he pinged as evil at the festival feast.
The gaurds aren't going to react with words of thanks as you're pulling your sword out of their comrade of ten years and explaining that you could tell he was a baddy but the rest of them seem ok.
The king isn't going to reward you for beheading his young heir who is being influenced by the evil ex-court wizard.

>>54077474
In a setting where paladins are acknowledged to be evil detectors with 100% accuracy, they probably would be okay with it.

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>>54078603
But how can you tell a paladin with 100% accuracy?

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>>54038521
>>54048579
Who would have thought that talking to your players like mature adults was the solution to anything?

>>54048973
Wrong. Read the fucking OP.

>>54078888
I'm now imaging a psychopathic Fighter going around killing random people claiming he detected evil on them

>>54058432
>you also may have killed someone who hasn't done anything wrong
Then they wouldn't have pinged Evil.

Killing Evil creatures is a Good act. You lose nothing by it.

>>54037835
If your players decide to rape an NPC, you have NO right to refuse them. Now, I know what you're going to say:
>B-b-b-but muh morals
>B-b-b-but muh consequences
>B-b-b-but mommy, sex make me scared
Shut up. You shouldn't be DMing. Your players are trying to make something interesting out of your generic, rational setting, and you're throwing it back in their faces. You have NO right to be DMing - just give your notes to one of your players, they can do a better job than you can.
>TL/DR, if you can't handle a rape in a modern setting, you shouldn't be a DM.

>>54064578
That depends. If I am Good and my intent is to commit Good actions, then killing the Evil man is a Good act. If I have some kind of personal compunction or religious ordinance against killing sleeping me, then I'd probably hold off.

>>54078888
He has divine powers, and if they don't work properly, then he's not following their rules. If he can't smite evil, then there's no evil to smite, or he isn't a paladin.

>>54069329
>kill being in their sleep
>evil
>kill being by stabbing their vital organs while they're awake and armed
>A-OK

>>54079141
>what are magic items and ranks in bluff
Divine powers can be faked kiddo

>>54070584
>magically torturing someone to death is no worse than blowing someone up
This is what they believe.

>>54079011
>Wrong
Educate thyself, trumpette.

Read >>54049095, which is the text that follows. Or open up the Legend Of The Five Rings 4e core book and read the full thing.

>>54079172
>setting has a bunch of people walking around pinging as Evil
>none of them are actually Evil, theyre all just carrying low-key Evil items in their pockets to seem cool and excuse their finish behavior
>setting has no Paladins either
>just a bunch of knights who got some basic enchantments casting healing spells
>thry go around killing people who are dickheads or brag about being Evil

Brilliant. I like this setting of lies.

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>>54037285
This is why I make every single magic item a charged item. Can it break the game? Yeah, sure. Can it break the game forever? Nope, only for 1d6 charges!

Players get to have fun running around with differant powerful magic items, and I don't have to worry that they'll permenantly be immune to damage from metal weapons or something.

>>54037947
If a dm decides to murder one of their players, you have NO right to refuse them. Now I know what you're going to say:
>but mah morals
>but legals consequences
>but I should call the cops
>but mommy, it scares me when friends ask me to hide a body
Shut up. You shouldnt' be dming. Your players are having to deal with this one guy, and he's throwing it back in their faces. You have NO right to be dming-just give your notes to one of the players who is STRONG enough to do what NEEDS TO BE DONE and KILL THE WEAK.
>tl/dr, if you can't murder someone irl to make your game better, you shouldn't be a dm

>>54078603
You're refreshingly naive if serious.
Even with objective detectable evil, the world isn't so black and white. People will still consider evil justified for any number of reasons and will make compromises just in the course of everyday life. People will sooner come to the defense of the pillar of the community who gives them jobs and helps their daily lives than listen to an outsider accusing them of some vague evil.

Would you have no complaints if some stranger accused your best friend or closest family member of being evil and sentenced them to death?
Even if objective, by what measure is this evil judged? Is any theft punishable by immediate execution? Should such justice be dealt out irrespective of local laws?

>>54079096
>You lose nothing by it.
Besides having to deal with the potential consequences of randomly killing strangers. Not everyone will accept "but they were evil!" as an excuse.

I mean assuming some sort of generic d&d setting good and evil are not the only forces at play, there's law and chaos and neutrality and every mix of them and good and evil.
If you ignore all the nuances of real life day-to-day interactions and just go around murdering everyone who "pings as evil" you're going to be treated like the autist you are and probably outlawed and opposed by various non-evil lawful forces and even potentially some good ones depending on how much collateral damage you cause.

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>>54038521
I once created a choatic evil character at the start of the campaign. My group hands out xp at the start of the session, and I was upset to learn that my caracter recieved a large XP penalty for not working well with the party, and being a coward.

I talked to the dm about it, and he said "Maybe he can learn his lesson from this, and play better with the team from now on."

I didn't like that idea, as there was no real reason for my character to have learned, other than experience loss, and I'd already fleshed out his personality as a bad dude. However, I didn't want to disrupt the game, so I asked the dm if I could change characters.

He let me roll up 2 other characters, and play them instead. My original character got arrested for something off screen and was never heard from again. The other players most likely don't remember him.

I'm happy with how things turned out, all because me and my dm talked to each other.

>>54041252
I run a lower fantasy world, where there isn't a single, powerful named npc who is secretly organizing evil schemes.

Instead, there are factions, and characters must eventually lead an army to defeat bigger evils

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>>54048741
If you go around killing people for no other reason then "the magic voice in my head said they were evil," you might not be behaving like MR. Rogers thinks you should be.

>>54079716
Why is Miscellania and Etceteria unshaded?

>>54057966
wtf is this

>>54058054
I've done this before. Has to be done with care, but you can deal with an overpowered item by deciding that it was "secretly cursed this whole time."

It makes sense to the players, because the item seemed too powerful. I, as the dm, don't have to admit that I screwed up.

Of course, I caution you not to do this very often at all, but cursed items are a fun part of the game. Just teach the players to be cautious before throwing any really mean cursed treasure at them.

>>54058150
>You played the gang enormously stupid, anon.
>Gangs don't put revenge before profit...
>I have problems with GMs playing criminal elements like they are stupid, it shows just how much they don't know about how they operate.
This is almost certainly the finest bait I have seen in years.
Kudos anon.
You ticked all the right boxes without going overboard, making it subtle enough that I can't even be 100% certain that you don't actually believe the words you typed.
Fabulous work.

>>54068953
Yes it will. Specifically, it will teach the players that this particular dm doesn't want them to rely on detect evil do do this stuff.

>>54079154
This is TRUE, though, and a big part of some 5th century codes of honor.

Think a man is evil? Don't stab him in the back! Wake him up, tell him his doom is upon him, and let him die facing you and knowing his crimes!

If he is a knight, he even has the right to trial by combat, which means he gets a weapon. If you are truly in the right, god will give you strength to defeat him.

>>54079598
Ideally, if there is a benevolent god that can detect evil objectively, I would have no reason to object. I would have to acknowledge that the god and the paladin know better than me.

>>54079801
>wtf is this

One of the simplest tests for Autism. Young kids get it wrong because they aren't developed enough yet to fully understand the idea of "other people" and think that because they know something the character will know it, too. Most normal kids grow out it pretty quickly but it takes Autistic kids longer, and some never do get it.

It's not the most scientific thing ever, but as far as 1-question tests go its better than most.

If it takes murders and rapes to ever ping Evil unless you're a demon or something, wouldn't you have to be a literal saint to ever ping Good?

Just respecting your ma' and dad, paying your taxes and treating your missus right puts you in Neutral, at best.

If you're not sacrificing all your income to the poor, running an orphanage, organizing a peasant uprising to remove oppressive feudal rule, you're not Good.

>>54079603
Please let this be bait. Your DM shouldn't be docking XP because of the way your character is acting in character. He's arbitrarily deciding what kind of behavior and personality your character should have by penalizing you heavily for ones he doesn't like. That's not cool.

>>54080740
>if there is a benevolent god that can detect evil objectively
Even if "objective evil" can be detected there's still the question of what is evil and the threshold for "pinging evil".
Most d&d settings have multiple benevolent gods with different goals motivations and focuses.

>I would have to acknowledge that the god and the paladin know better than me.
So you'd just let a stranger kill your friends and family as long as they assure you they and their god of preference know the baddies from the goodies?
You aouldn't happen to be on the autism spectrum?

>>54035006
I more got the impression that the Rogue wasn't punished for just being a cunt, but rather for being a cunt to someone with friends willing and able to avenge his cold-blooded murder.

>>54035006
>>54036974
>>54083723
>The PCs should slowly and subtly find themselves face to face with NPCs exhibiting behaviors very similar to theirs.
Funny. I didn't get the impression it was a punishment at all, but rather the final point of the campaign. Something the rogue had earned - a dark mystery for weeks of dark choices.

>>54079231
The evil spell doesn't actually kill you, just causes debilitating amounts of pain. Fireball does in fact kill you, which is generally pretty painful because it involves burning to death.

>>54057966
She put a blanket over it in the basket and didn't seem to remove it before the question was posed. Probably basket first to see if the cushion sort of deflated and let the ball sink or something. Then the box because Anne is a thieving whore. My first response is to try and give the benefit of the doubt.

>>54034867
I rather like playing L5R. But I do not condone this way of thinking.

>>54083961

Neurotypicals say basket because that's where she remembers leaving it. Severe autists and little kids say box because they know its in the box and can't fathom her not having the same information they have.

>>54045375
>When you're level 10 expect a few level 10 bounty hunters to come after you.
Because when you are level 20 you would expect level 20 bounty hunters?

>>54058150
Very tasty bait

Once again /pol/ shits the bed and we have to bear witness. fucking hell.