A paladin finds a new, freshly-turned vampire. It has not done

>>54025717

Offer the potion, I guess? Since you're posing this question I'm guessing it's not supposed to be that obvious and clear cut? In that case I'd say it's the paladin's discretion as to whether he wants to help or smite.

>>54025717
paladins aren't just angry smitebots, they should act with wisdom and mercy

he should give the vampire the sword to let it end its own existence

>>54025717
Is there any reason not to use the potion to cure it of vampirism? Like, does the potion have some other beneficial use that would make the paladin hesitant to expend it on curing a vampire?

>>54025754

The question came up in another thread and devolved into a shitstorm. I closed the thread after it got stupid, but OP is making this thread to ask the question without the context of that conversation, looking to gain evidence for his preferred viewpoint by having people agree with him.

>>54025717
>Another "paladin wat do?" thread
Fucking stop already

>>54025717
>>54019741
The other shitfest hasn't even been archived yet.

>>54025769
If the paladin is out hunting vampires, then presumably the potion is for if he gets bitten and starts turning.

>>54025801

Vampires are inherently evil, even if they haven't committed any evil acts, right? In that case the paladin's well-being outweighs the evil being's.

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>>54025794
>600+ posts

>>54025717
How hard is it to acquire a new potion of cure vampirism? How likely is it that the Paladin will die in combat or be turned himself if he attacks the vampire?

>>54025754
>>54025769
There's another thread going in which this caused a shitstorm. The gist of it was that a paladin comes across vampire that hasn't done anything wrong and has access to a cure for vampirism. The paladin decides to kill the vampire anyway. People were arguing for and against this. Some said that the job of a paladin is to destroy evil, not cure someone. Others said that a paladin is supposed to do good more generally, and that if there is an available cure he should use that.

>a paladin kills an innocent, a victim at that, in cold blood knowing full well it would kill them and he had the means to instead save them with little if any downside

Gee, sounds like they definitely shouldn't fall.

>>54025717

I'd say it depends on the individual paladin, as well as his order and their teachings. Some orders might preach that, once converted, you are irreparably tainted, and even if cured, you will remain evil. The kindest thing to do would be to end the vampire's existence.

Others would take a kinder stance (Think like Michael Carpenter of the Dresden Files) and believe that they have a duty to save everyone they can, regardless of their crimes, whether hypothetical, or actual.

Personally, I like that even under the most stringent interpretations, two paladins can be very different individuals, with their own ways of enacting their dogma upon the world, even if they are of the same faith.

>>54025853
For our purposes, assume the cure is relatively easily available, since in the previous thread the GM stated that was the case in the campaign where this apparently occurred.

>>54025769
The vampire is obviously lying about wishing to be cured.
It'll just destroy the potion.

>scenario 1
>use the sword
>you have defeated the vampire and still have the potion

>scenario 2
>give the potion
>vampire destroys the potion
>use the sword
>you have defeated the vampire and have no potion

If you can restrain the vampire without causing yourself harm and forcing it to drink the potion, then maybe that's another option.

>>54025894
>the cure is relatively easily available

If the vampire is recently turned and not completely evil then it would be evil, or at least not good, for the paladin to withhold the cure and attack the vampire.

>>54025870
>innocent

It's the orc baby shit all over again. You haven't even once considered the settings' universal laws, have you? For example, if the paladin is operating in a setting where there is no such thing as an innocent evil being.

Who /ethics101/ here?

>>54025869
If a vampire is so metaphysically different from the person it was before being turned that it is always evil-aligned regardless of what its original personality was like before being turned, then the vampires is essentially a different being distinct from the person that it once was.

I would argue that using the potion to cure the person of vampirism *is* destroying the vampire, so the paladin would be fulfilling their oath to destroy evil regardless. At that point, the only difference between "curing" the vampire and slaying it is that administering the cure also saves a good person.

>>54025923

I agree with that premise, but how does the paladin know if it was recently turned? How does he know it's not a trick? The safest route is to kill it. Offering to save it MIGHT risk the paladin turning himself. Offering to save it MIGHT risk the vampire attacking him. Killing the vampire risks NOTHING and is part of the paladin's job description.

>>54025929
The orc baby is somewhat different, since it's stuck being an orc no matter what. In this case, there is a way to turn the vampire back into a regular person.

>>54025941

How the fuck do we know it was a good person before they were turned? How does the paladin know? For all we know this is newborn vampire Hitler.

>>54025954
So if the paladin had a potion to transmogrify the orc into a human, he should use it on the orc babies? See how stupid this is?

>>54025949
> paladin isn't willing to put himself in danger
> not even if it might save an innocent life
What kind of paladin are you?

>>54025717
Depends on the setting
e
p
e
n
d
s

>>54025929
Except he literally has a potion that would turn them back into the person they were, not an always chaotic evil or whatever vampire. Even by that reckoning it's still killing an innocent as a result since he's intentionally not doing so when he can, easily, and is instead rendering that salvation permanently impossible. There's really no way this works out except 'you fall so hard you leave a fucking crater'.

>>54025969
> So if the paladin had a potion to transmogrify the orc into a human, he should use it on the orc babies? See how stupid this is?
I mean, not really? If a paladin could just turn something into a non-evil creature, why shouldn't he?

>>54025809
>Vampires are inherently evil, even if they haven't committed any evil acts, right? In that case the paladin's well-being outweighs the evil being's.

go to bed John Calvin...

while the creature certainly has a greater tendency towards depravity it has not fallen to temptation yet and is therefore not depraved.

>>54025929
For that analogy to work, it would have to be an human baby that was polymorphed into an orc baby, and you have the option to turn it back to normal or kill it.

From there the question becomes if spending a few minutes as an Always Evil creature makes you continue to be Evil after you've been turned back to normal.

>>54025717
Source of this shit tier thread made by a sore loser that lost an argument in another thread:

>He thought he was justified in doing every single one of these things. He was a Paladin and constantly threatened, tortured and even, as I said before killed an innocent.
>I could go into detail about every one of those but I'll explain the innocent part.
>We were chasing down this vampire cult that had infiltrated a castle town. After some runnning around and my character nearly getting buttloved by a vampire, we found an underground net of tunnels that the bloodsuckers used. We got in and killed and routed most vampires but we found the body of a victim that was just bitten and transformed into one of them.
>We tried talking to her and she was fully aware of her surroundings and spoke clearly to us. So we decided to help her cope with her unwanted vampirism. The paladin had great >Heal skill and we decided he should help her recuperate and we explicitely told him about 5 times "Don't use Lay on Hands or anything of that nature, because you'll just kill her." He looked at us nodded and told the DM "I use Lay on Hands on her.".
>The DM just looked really sorrily at us and told the table "She dies from the holy radiance". Everybody was just freaking flabbergasted at how stupid and stubborn that motherfucker was and as my character (and me) angrily chased down and killed every single vampire, the paladin huffed and had the nerve to say "Now he's going to get pissy because of that".
>I swear to god, dude had no idea of what roleplaying motherfucking means.
This GM then kicked the paladin out of the group, while the group constantly bullied him.

Part 1 out of ???

>>54025974

How do you know it's an innocent? How does the paladin know it's an innocent? The paladin is out smiting vampires, and you're going to create this incredibly inane situation just to force him to fall? That just shows how retarded the DM and this whole situation is. Imagine a video game where you are killing random rats and slimes to level up then OH GAME OVER ONE OF THE RATS WAS A GOOD GUY IN HIS PREVIOUS LIFE

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>>54025717

Did 3.5 and following drop the ability of evil clerics to turn paladins as if they were undead? Just asking.

(Especially interesting that clerics couldn't be turned by other clerics; it was only pallys that were vulnerable. Like they were Jesus-zombies or something.)

>>54026001
>If a paladin could just turn something into a non-evil creature, why shouldn't he?

You mean like killing it?

>>54026002
>yet

A ticking bomb is still a bomb and will be disarmed before it explodes.

>>54026018
Sense motive checks exist for a reason. If you think the vampire is lying, then you can roll to try and see

>>54026018
> I'm going to kill you because I'm not sure you're innocent
That's a terrible way to look at the world.

>>54026009
Honestly, I'd say that's the paladin's perogative. The characters certain are in the right to be shocked by this, but I thinkl kicking the player out is a bit extreme. I've seen rampant Tha/tg/uy activites that get overlooked for years

>>54026054

It's a fucking vampire, nigger.
>>54026053
If he fails the motive check and kills it, he still falls despite doing everything right, because this entire situation is fucking forced and retarded.

>>54026018
>if I have not seen your entire life start to finish to ensure you are pure and good I have no reason to assume you shouldn't be killed on the spot

Does the Vampire sparkle?
Wait I forgot are sparkling vampires good or evil...

>>54026049
>Innocent has a bomb forcibly strapped to them by terrorists
>They are now a suicide bomber
>Do you kill them for being a suicide bomber, or remove the vest to turn them back into a normal person?

>>54026036
If killing it happens to be the way to do that, yes. But if you've got something like a potion or a spell or whatever that can make someone no longer evil, why not use it? You'd still be removing evil from the world, and this way you potentially gain another good person on top of that.

>>54026018
>>54026003
>>54025969
Part of why this question and those like it cause such a shitshow is that no matter your answer, somebody will chime in with a new layer of "what if?" to promote argument.

It's That Guy: the Conversation, and it will always suck.

>>54026066

Y'all niggas is stupid, just have the fastest party member yell stop and roll to tackle the paladin if you want the dumb bitch to live so badly.

>>54025717
Well in the newest edition of Dnd there are no alignment restrictions for paladins.
So he does whatever the player decides is most fitting for his character.

>>54026071

Plenty of Nazis were good people.

>>54026059
It wasn't the first That Guy thing he did. He had also been torturing and terrorizing other innocent people despite supposedly being a paladin. This was just the first innocent person he straight up killed, and he did it over the strenuous objections of everyone else in the group.

>>54026068
>If he fails the motive check and kills it,

How does that make any sense?

>Roll sense motive, roll poorly
>You don't think she is lying
>No reason to kill her

>Roll sense motive, roll well
>You know she is/isn't lying
>Only have reason to kill her if she was lying, in which case you don't fall

Do you think a bad sense motive roll on a truthful statement somehow means you think theyre lying?

>>54025717
Cure the vampire.
If this is D&D (which I'm guessing it is because these questions are never imaginative enough to be anything other then "default fantasy" D&D), then vampires are intrinsically evil but only while they are still vampires, and evil can be redeemed by choosing to not be so.
In this case that choice is curing the vampirism.

Besides, all I need to do is watch her drink it. If she does right then problem is solved, if she doesn't I get my smite on.

>>54026077
Ever watch American Sniper? They shot the Muslim kid to stop the IED.

>>54026111
Yes, and?

>>54026120
>This was just the first innocent person he straight up killed
I thought you said it was a vampire

>>54025717
test

>>54026001
Because a paladin's job is to smite evil.

>>54026137
I would hope that a Paladin is better at being Lawful Good than the American Military

>>54026137
And in that case they didn't have an easy way to resolve the issue non-violently. In this case you do.

Christ there's a lot of spergy fucks on these types of threads.
No wonder nobody on /tg/ can get or hold down a fucking game.

>>54026122
There's no point in even rolling then if you're just going to railroad that hard.

>>54026120
The story centers around the one case where he attacked innocent, check the wording out yourself

>He constantly threatened, tortured and even, as I said before killed an innocent.
>I could go into detail about every one of those but I'll explain the innocent part.
See? He then went on to talk about the recently turned vampire. The owner of the story assumed the vampire was innocent, it wasn't.

>>54026137
>lie movie based on lie book by professional liar
What's that got to do with anything?

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>>54026066
>Healing is not the job of a paladin. Curing disease is not the job of a paladin.

Nice digits, Lucifer, but I can't let that shit slide.

>>54026177
>The owner of the story assumed the vampire was innocent, it wasn't.
Got proof that it wasn't?

>>54026198

IT'S

A

VAMPIRE

>>54025801
>>54025809
>sending a truly repentant soul into hell where it will be tortured for eternity / used for raw materials for demons because you *might* need that magic item later
Really gets the noggin joggin. Supposing the Paladin is infected right now, he still has a duty to hand the potion over. And then kill himself before he fully turns.

>>54025717
>>54026009
Then another poster agrees with the GM kicking and insulting the paladin by posting this:
>This is why I explicitly allow my players to "cancel" one guy's stupid decisions by unanimity minus one.
>"I kill that one NPC the other players all want to help" No you don't, this is a group game and the fun of four people is worth more than yours. I don't care if your fun is right and everyone else's is wrong, you can just leave.
This evolved into a shitstorm the size of a hurricane for GMs enforcing such power on players acting like the original story. Then this OP posted that same paragraph/situation to which he got these two following replies:

>A paladin encounters a new vampire
He smites it right away, before giving it a second thought.
>that has done nothing wrong and wants to be cured
The vampire would never get a chance to speak. If he dare to speak. To the Paladin's hear it would be the Devil's words. The Paladin would then recite his training about how he would not be tempted or fooled by the evil forces. Then, proceed to smite the beast into ashes.
>The paladin has a potion that, if the vampire drinks it, will cure the vampire
What kind of fucking shit awful setting is this?

AND

> then the paladin's job is to cure that vampire
Rehabilitation is not the job of a paladin. Healing is not the job of a paladin. Curing disease is not the job of a paladin. Paladins aren't there to brew potions or change bandages. Paladins are there to kill evil creatures.

Then This OP couldn't reply anymore and he made this thread. The End Part 2 of 2 Fixed the Reddit spacing, sorry for those that replied already.

of course you give them the potion you nimrod

>>54026215
The potion is for yourself in case of a vampire ambush,though

>>54026162

It's not the users on this website's fault - arguments about alignment, and especially the role of Lawful Good and whether a Paladin is supposed to redeem evil or kick it's ass, have been the single largest bone of contention in D&D history. I've heard about some groups dissolving over it, other groups descending into arguments and fisticuffs.

The biggest one was the POW issue. Let's say a group of Kobolds surrender, all of them women and children. Does the Paladin take them prisoner? Return them to town, where they'll be killed anyway? Set them free and risk reprisals? What is the role of Good in this world, is it to redeem and heal, or is it to cut away evil like a surgeon's scalpel?

>>54026175
What railroading? You doubted they were telling the truth. Sense motive is for detecting lies, and rolling low just means you take what they say at face value.

If they tell the truth and you rol lot confirm it, then there's no question.

What pqrt of that is a railroad, outside of the fact that the girl wasn't in some quantum state to orchestrate your fall regardless of your actions?

If you accuse the innkeeper of being a demon, kill him, and the DM makes you fall, is that a railroad?

>>54026020
>mindlessly obey
>powered by forces of good
Yup, basically good-aligned zombies

>>54026162
A non-sperg would have just walked away without saying anything. We're all spergs here, you included.

>>54025717
If a freshly turned vampire asked a paladin for help knowing full well what they were, they would ask for a swift death, not assuming they had a potion on them.

>>54026229
You can also use it to eliminate vampires by turning them back into regular people. So really it's dual use.

>>54026185
Yes, a paladin can heal, but is it his job?

A computer engineer knows about computer, his job is to put harddrives and shit into cases. He also, knows how to fix internet connections on the side. Is he a telecommunication employee? He is not, but his degree required for him to learn some telecommunication skills.

I believe that same logic applies here.

>>54026237
I really like that concept.


Maybe not as a general evil cleric turn power, but it could be a neat moment, where a good aligned party comes across some weird savant evil cleric and it Turns the party paladin because he's so aligned with the celestial realm or whatever.

>>54026234
>Sense motive is for detecting lies, and rolling low just means you take what they say at face value.

Why the fuck would the paladin who wants to smite her take her word for it?

>>54025869
>job of a paladin is to destroy evil, not cure someone

Wouldn't curing someone of evil be the same as destroying it? You destroy cancer cells to cure a person.

>>54026234

If the innkeeper was ACTUALLY A FUCKING DEMON? Then yes, idiot.

>>54026284
>Why the fuck would the paladin who wants to smite her take her word for it?

Because you rolled low on sense motive and believe what they're saying is true? Acting otherwise would be metagaming.

>>54026208
see
>>54026185

I really hope you didn't delete and repost that as a trolling tactic.

>>54025954
>>54025969
You could easily argue that the orc baby could be raised to be a good person just as much as the vampire could be cured of vampirism.

>>54026185

But he straight up used Lay on Hands on the vampire and was punished for it. He was just doing his job, as per your own implication.

>>54026229
>you are still "you" after being bitten by a vampire and just need a cure to be okay
>but anyone else who is bitten is now a vampire who needs to be slain
Either you save the newly turned vampire, or you kill them and accept that you must kill yourself if you're ever turned into a vamp.

>>54026257
A freshly turned vampire might not know what they were. They're going about their day, minding their own business, when suddenly someone attacks them, the disappears off into the night. Then they turn pale, grow fangs and claws, and start feeling these strange urges to attack the people that they thought of as their friends, family, and neighbors. Then a paladin shows up. It's pretty reasonable for them to ask the paladin for help curing this strange affliction that they've come down with. They don't want to die, but they also don't want to hurt people. So they ask for help, hoping that there is some sort of cure.

>>54026325

If he was a vampire he wouldn't want to kill himself. That's why he needs the potion to revert back to human, so he can then time travel and kill himself.

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>>54025717
That entirely depends on the oath of the paladin or the god(s) they serve.

>>54026299
>If the innkeeper was ACTUALLY A FUCKING DEMON?

He isn't, just as the Vampire is being honest about wanting to be cured.

You accuse them of lying and kill them. You fall because they were telling the truth and you acted on a wrong assumption.

Now, where's the railroad?

>>54025869
> the job of a paladin is to destroy evil, not cure someone.

Can't a paladin perform healing though? How would this be different?

>>54026268
A paladin should be held to a higher standard than some random 9-to-5 civilian. He's literally been empowered by a god to be a force for good in the world. That's a bit more than just a job title.

>>54025809
>Vampires are inherently evil
Said no one ever. Sons of Kain cannot be good

>>54026341
I think it depends more on how corrupting the influence of being a vampire for a short period can be.

Which, based on the existence of Potions that cure it, of which the paladin is carrying one, it seems logical to think that someone who has recently turned into a vampire and hasn't had to kill to stave their thirst yet could be turned back and redeemed fairly easily, or that transforming into a vampire takes a while to have its full effect.

Otherwise, why would the Paladin have a potion to cure himself if he became one? Since apparently he'd instantly fall with no chance for redemption if he was bitten.

>>54026351

Except the vampire is a vampire. You can kill them regardless of what they say without falling. This is why you're railroading.

>>54026389
>Said no one ever.

Except for D&D, which is the context of the conversation.

>>54026310
No, like I said at the end, I did it to fix the Reddit spacing, it was painful to read as I originally posted it.

>>54026389
If they weren't, why is this situation even being discussed? You would be smiting a non-evil being. This entire situation only warrants any discussion at all because vampires are inherently evil and smite-worthy no matter what, at all times, or so it goes.

>>54026351
>vetoing a valid action because you wanted to railroad that NPC's storyline
>calling a valid action invalid
>forcing falls for no reason
>not railroading

>>54026431
>>54026441
Yeah I fucked it up lol, read closely, it looks like I was disagreeing with him when we were actually making the same point

>>54026268

Paladins who get hung up on things like the exact wording of their job description make shitty paladins.

Example: A paladin sees a child drowning in a river. Does the paladin say "Well, my job isn't to be a lifeguard, so I'll just walk on by"? Hell no. A good paladin would try to save the child as best he could.

Getting autistic about what exactly is your problem versus not your problem is something that regular people get to do, not paladins.

>if curing evil/brining good into the world is more good, cure vampire
>if destroying evil is more good somehow, probably just by removing potential, kill vampire then kill everything ever

>>54026457
>forcing a fall for no reason

A) It's not forcing, because nobody told you to have that suspicion, nor act on it
B) It isn't for no reason, since you're playing the class that has a code to follow. The DM does not have to alter the world to your whims in order to make sure you can't kill an innocent no matter how stupid your false accusations.

>>54026376
> He's literally been empowered by a god to be a force for good in the world.
No, he's been empowered by a god to DESTROY EVIL. Big difference. The paladin has zero obligation to put himself at risk by expending a potion that he might need himself on the off chance that a creature literally made of evil might be telling the truth about wanting to be cured. He should smite the vampire and move on.

>>54026539
>put himself at risk by expending a potion that he might need himself on the off chance that a creature literally made of evil

How would the Paladin ever need a cure for Vamparism himself if all vampires are pure evil and not worth saving?

>>54026463
So, let's make an hypothesis

>you are a Paladin in a camp with lots of soldiers, good people but they are lead by a stubborn man that only knows one strategy "To chaaarge!". You are marching with them to cross the mountain pass to kill a Lich that is summoning skeletons and sending them on to your location
>The scouting party comes back filled with wounded men. The good hearted Paladin heals them, while he is healing them, a battalion moves forward
>by the time the Paladin is done healing, the battalion comes back with many wounded men.
>The paladin is informed the lich itself is ahead and he is boosting the strength of the skeletons, the men in arms do not have the weapons necessary to deal with it
>the paladin heals the wounded again, and history repeats itself, another battalion comes back wounded.
Should the paladin stop healing people and move forward against the Lich to stop people from getting wounded, or should he stay where he is and endlessly heal the wounded?
What is the Paladin's job?

>>54026201
Yes, and? It's not a lich or some other creature that willingly became undead.

>>54026463

Paladins who get hung up on things like the exact wording of their job description make shitty paladins.

Example: A paladin sees a vampire. Does the paladin say "Well, my job isn't to smite evil, so I'll just cure them"? Hell no. A good paladin would try to smite the vampire as best he could.

If my fujoshi friends are to be believed, rape in yaoi does not classify as an evil act.

Just my two cents.

>>54026503

IT'S

A

FUCKING

VAMPIRE

YOU'RE ALREADY ALTERING THE WORLDS WHIMS BY SAVING IT'S NOT EVIL AND CAN'T BE SMOTE

>>54026553
Obviously, the Paladin should have used his Charisma to convince the army to hold and wait to see what the wounded scouts had to say after they recovered, instead of acting like retarded meat robots to prove a point.

>>54026503
>because nobody told you to have that suspicion
The fact he is a vampire told the player he should kill it

>>54025801
That's not how vampirism works. If he paladin starts turning into a vampire he's going to be in no state to cure himself, being that he'll be dead, and if he's already turned he's not going to have any desire to cure himself, being that he'll be a vampire.

>>54026551
It obviously works pro-actively.

>>54026616
Nope, because by that logic he should have already drank it before going into a Vampire tomb, and OP wouldn't have said it was a Cure.

Why are people so opposed to even trying to cure it? If you have an easy way to help someone reject evil and turn back to normal, why not at least try that first? If it doesn't work out, you still have smiting as a fallback.

>>54026577
But curing the vampire also smites evil. It actually smites it even better, because it destroys it and replaces it with a being of good or at least neutral alignment.

>>54026605
And the fact that it said it had recently been turned and wanted to be cured should have given the player the idea to stop, consider, and possibly use a skill check if he suspected a lie, and then act upon that skill check.

>>54026598
I'm working off of the setting implied by the OP, where a cure for being a vampire exists, and is being carried by a Paladin in case he is bitten and needs to cure himself. Yes, you can stab it, but that isn't necessarily the right thing to do, any more than it would be for your party member to stab your Paladin if he was bitten instead of using that potion on him.

Why do potions to cure vamparism exist if every vampire is beyond redemption, even freshly bitten ones?

>>54026603
Let's assume you fail the check

>The stubborn man that leads the party tells the Paladin to not worry about such girly strategies like "hold and wait", and frankly tells the Paladin "As long as you are here, we can fight forever. In the worst case scenario, we are holding the undead horde back. In the best case scenario, we actually are wounding the Lich, just very slowly. Perseverance is key, young Paladin."
What do you do? Is keeping people from dying more important than stopping the source of people dying?

>>54026666
Because the girl is obviously lying and Evil, since vampires are beyond redemption, but also because the Paladin might need it later, in case he's bitten and turns into an evil lying vampire that is beyond redemption and needs to be cured of that.

>>54026666
Because, super satan, that places the paladin at risk needlessly. The most efficient way for him to do his job is simply to destroy the vampire and keep the potion rather than risk losing the potion doing something that isn't his job.

>>54026671
There is no guarantee that the person was good before.

>>54026630

It works pro-actively as in vampirism isn't instantaneous you absolute mong.

>>54026666
Satan, you are not going to fool me. You are trying to make me low my guard and stab me in the back.

I will never trust one of your kin. The mighty of God will protect me against temptation.

>>54026683
So there were no scouts to begin with? Since sending a smaller force of guys to carefully scout ahead is a pretty girly strategy.

In which case, why was the Paladin not leading the initial charge to begin with?

>>54026315
In older fluff, especially for D&D but also for Tolkien and related fantasy universes, Orcs have an inherently evil soul that cannot be bred out of them. Violence and depravity are simply in their nature.

>>54026717
A scouting party normally is composed of fast moving units, a Paladin in heavy armor going clank clank would ruin the scouting party's stealth

>>54026705
>It works pro-actively as in vampirism isn't instantaneous you absolute mong.

That isn't what pro-active means. Pro-active means you would take it before getting bitten and it would stop the effects from occuring at all. It's a cure, so you take it after.

And, since the girl has enough mind and good in her to ask to be cured, it's likely not late enough that the potion wouldn't work. And, given that OP implies it would work, it should work.

>>54026703
>thinks being a paladin is about minimizing risk to self

>>54026703
> that places the paladin at risk needlessly
> destroy the vampire and keep the potion rather than risk losing the potion
So you give up on a chance to help a victim of evil... because you want to keep a potion for yourself? That doesn't sound very good. And if you were worried about risk, why even become a paladin in the first place? It's an inherently risky profession that basically requires that you repeatedly place yourself in danger in order to protect others.

>>54026731
But we already established that there are no scouts, since the commander only knows how to charge forward and doesn't tolerate any girly strategies like gathering intel.

So in conclusion, the army has no scouts and no tactics, and the Paladin leads from the front so he is the first in any sort of danger

>>54026760
"A paladin can't smite the undead, if he is dead himself" - Me

>>54026718
Tolkien disagrees, but okay

>>54026553
Your thought experiment is retarded, even for thought experiments.

The paladin does its best to alleviate and heal as best it can and still accompany the idiot battalion, tries to defeat the lich asap, heals there, returns to camp, heals there, atones for failure in not being capable enough to do both and/or convince people to wait.

The best application of Lawful Good, because life isn't a Pure Universal, is to do one's utmost, fail due to inconsistency and variety in life, and hope your god understands.

>>54026775
If you're not willing to tolerate even a little risk in order to help others, why are you a paladin?

>>54026666
Good Guy Super Satan gets it. The question straight up says they've done nothing wrong.

>>54026773
No, you are missing the point of scouts, which is to find traps and the enemy location. Then the main battalion charges heads on, confident that in a head-on encounter they will always win due to superior armor. Which of course offer little advantage against an undead horde.

I based them on Greeks. Who used chariots to scout and then send the phalanx head on.

>>54026747
>And, since the girl has enough mind and good in her to ask to be cured, it's likely not late enough that the potion wouldn't work.

Wrong. The premise is that she is a full vampire. Full stop. A fucking vampire.

Clearly in this setting the paladin could drink it even if he was a full vampire.

>>54026775
Just stay at home steve.

>>54025762
kek

>>54026810
>help others

It's a fucking vampire, not an innocent good-aligned human.

>>54026814
It doesn't matter what it has or hasn't done, it matters what it IS. It is a vampire, and thus it should be slain.

>>54026816
>which is to find traps and the enemy location

Meaning that the army has to stay and wait for the scouts to be healed in order to listen to where those traps and locations are.

Which we already established that the commander thinks is girly, so by extension he thinks scouting is girly, so he would never bring scouts to begin with.

Which again, means that the Paladin is the first one to fight any skeletons.

>>54026771
It doesn't sound very good because you're mincing words. You know what else does't sound very good? A paladin not doing his fucking job and seeing an evil creature and not smiting the shit out of it. Wonder what his fucking patron deity of smiting the shit out of evil things will think about that?

You can't even protect her anymore because she's already a vampire. Now you're just being grossly negligent and endangering not only yourself, but the others you could have saved in the future, all because you wanted to be derelict in your duty.

>>54026843
>Meaning that the army has to stay and wait
no, the army always advances. Horses move faster than walkers

Why did you make such an autism riddled thread OP?

>>54026817
>Clearly in this setting the paladin could drink it even if he was a full vampire.

Yep, so the fact that she's asking to be cured and hasn't done anything Evil as a Vampire yet means the cure should work just fine.

So you use it and save this innocent victim of a Vampire attack, right?

>>54026831
But it was once, and can be made that way again through little effort on the paladin's part. Being unwilling to even try to cure it is either laziness or cowardice, neither of which befits a paladin.

>>54025762
The paladin only has one sword, and one potion of cure vampirism.

You hand the vampire your sword, and not it holds you at swordpoint and demands the potion.

>>54026831
So you're willing to bet on the future possibility of harm coming to you, but not on the future possibility of the vampire being cured and becoming good? Convenient your assessment of the potential greater good benefits you personally.

>>54026840
>It is a vampire, and thus it should be slain.

Then why is the Paladin carrying a potion that cures vamparism?

>>54026862

No, you kill the evil vampire.

>>54026867

You better go around resurrecting corpses of good humans who were murdered then to save their innocent lives.

>>54026862
No.
1. It's not innocent, it's a vampire.
2. Paladins aren't there to save evil, they are there to destroy evil.

>>54026853
>Paladin is busy healing the scouts
>Army advances forward
>Army didn't stay and ask where the scouts actually found the enemy
>Goes in the wrong direction

Right, so in conclusion, the commander refuses to bring scouts because they're girly AND useless with how he operates

>>54026871

There is no assessment. Only smiting of evil, word mincer. Should a fellow good human be bitten along with the paladin himself, who's to say the paladin wouldn't kill himself and give the potion to the other human?

But this is a fucking vampire.

>>54026888
You can just say you want to kill bitches man. Like, you'll fall, but antipaladins are edgy. You seem to like that.

>>54026867
>But it was once
Just like any other vampire that isn't the original one. The entire race was human once before being turned by an asshole. So are you saying in that dumb setting, vampires shouldn't be killed?

Is the Paladin jobless then?

>>54026888
>>54026898
See >>54026879

>>54026703
>There is no guarantee that the person was good before.
Then smite them, and get two smites for the price of one.

>>54026907

Maybe you shouldn't make the girl an evil being if you don't want to be killed by the guy whose entire existence is killing evil incarnate.

>>54026879
Because OP is a faggot who made that up when it was never in the original argument. The whole thing that started this shitstorm didn't feature any fucking potion.

>>54026902
Haha, that conclusion is hilarious but you are right, I see the flaw no

>>54026906
>Should a fellow good human be bitten along with the paladin himself,

This is exactly what happened, except the Paladin showed up later and wasn't bitten himself.

But somehow, it's wrong to use the cure for vamparism on a vampire that was turned 5 minutes ago instead of 5 seconds ago?

>>54026925

But you lose the opportunity cost of potentially infinite smites should you then fall to a vampire attack in the very likely vampire-riddled area which necessitated you to carry a potion of cure vampirism.

>>54026929
The existence of the paladin is to do Good. Lots of ways to do that. But you can't. Because you fall. You can still smite as an antipaladin though. That's the part you want. You want the smiting.

>>54026941

1. She has already turned. She is no longer good.
2. You don't know whether or not she was good in her past life.

So yeah, it IS different. It's ENTIRELY fucking different. I don't know how you're so fucking retarded that you can't see this. Why don't you go back to posting about how the vampire is innocent some more?

>>54026208

>>Healing is not the job of a paladin

What is lay on hands.

>>Curing disease is not the job of a paladin

What is remove disease.


The only thing the GM did wrong was not saying the Paladin fell for his earlier dickery long before he encountered the vampire.

>Cast Detect Evil
>Evil
>Kill without remorse


I don't get what's the debate.

>>54026703
>There is no guarantee that the person was good before.

Sure there is, OP's question says they haven't done anything yet. Not that they haven't done anythinh since being a vampire yet.

It's like you can't even willfully abuse syntax to your own moral benefit.

>>54026930
No, it just mentioned that there was an available cure for vampirism, but didn't elaborate much on what it was.

>>54026957
>smiting evil isn't good

Then why do paladins do it? QED all paladins are just anti-paladins, by your logic.

>>54026945
It's not like the potion is going to help you if you get bitten. Vampires aren't zombies, they have to kill you first, and when you're dead you're not going to drink it.

>>54026969
>OP's question says they haven't done anything yet.

They're a vampire, idiot. You morons don't seem to understand this fundamental premise. Being unlucky enough to fully turn into a vampire is already grounds for smiting and evil-hood.

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>>54025809
>>54026018
>>54026068
>>54026201
>>54026299
>>54026428
>>54026598

Replacing every instance of "Vampre" in this thread with "Nigger" or "Jew" is most instructive. More people should use wordfilters.

>>54026539
>He's literally been empowered by a god to be a force for good in the world.
>No, he's been empowered by a god to DESTROY EVIL. Big difference.

This is the entire argument, distilled down to two lines. /pol/ vs Tumblr basically.

>>54026993
I think you might have austism

>>54026960
So, do paladins in your setting work at a hospital?

Normally, I would think I could find priests or clerics there, instead of a paladin. But what do I know, I guess I'm just a dick for torturing goblins for information.

>>54026977
>It's not like the potion is going to help you if you get bitten

It clearly is, otherwise why does it exist? You can't just make shit up like "the potion doesn't actually work" to help your non-argument. This is obviously a scenario where you take the cure after being bitten but before being turned.

Otherwise you would be forcing the vampire to chug the potion, which is equivalent to rape, which makes the paladin fall regardless.

>>54026975
Smiting evil isn't innately good, though. There's plenty of evil creatures that go around smiting other evil creatures. You ever hear of this thing called the Blood War?

>>54026965
>failing the int requirement to become a paladin

>>54027006
It's the Australian strain of Autism

>>54027003
>the paladin is out smiting niggers and jews

One of the posts even already has the word nigger in it.

>>54026975
Smiting evil isn't the ONLY way to do good you mong.

If you're going to pretend you logic, at least read the full predicate.

>>54026959
>1. She has already turned. She is no longer good.

Think of it this way. Say the Paladin and his Good aligned friend are chained up in a dungeon. A vampire bites his friend, and then wanders off to torment the paladin with watching his friend turn into an evil beast. The Paladin manages to break free after several hours, thanks to a lose link of chain, but by now his friend is a vampire.

His friend is coherent enough to ask for a cure, and say that he doesn't want to be a Vampire. The Paladin, fortunately, hid a potion that cures vamparism in his boot.

Should the Paladin A) give a potion to his friend so he can stop being Evil and start being Good again, or B) beat him to death with a rusty chain?

If the answer is B, then why the fuck to potions that can cure them from being a full vampire even exist?

>>54027023
I'm not making anything up. Vampires create new vampires by draining their victims to death. You can't take a potion if you're dead. Clearly, then, the potion is for use on someone else.

>>54026957
Seems like their are two views:
1. A paladin is a warrior for good.
2. A paladin is a crusader against evil.

If you believe in #1, then give over the potion. If you believe in #2, then you are still a jerk if you don't give over the potion but technically you won't fall. Your priest might give you a ton of Hail Marys though.

>>54027024

But do they solely smite evil creatures? And for the sole reason of because they were evil?

No. No they didn't. Try again.

>>54027019
Clerics and priests work in hospitals because they are better at healing than paladins are, not because paladins shouldn't heal people. But if you're in a scenario where you have ill or injured people and the only healer you have on hand is a paladin, then that paladin should roll up his sleeves and start healing folks. Just because a paladin isn't as good at something as a cleric doesn't mean he should completely neglect it. You need to be flexible to deal with what the world might throw at you.

>>54027046

Smite the vampire and kill yourself for failing to save your friend in time.

>>54027046
>If the answer is B, then why the fuck to potions that can cure them from being a full vampire even exist?

Who says the potion works on fully turned vampires?

>b-b-b-but the girl is asking for it

Isn't this the same circular logic as "why does he carry the potion then"?

>>54027058
Yes of course a paladin should heal people when he has the chance.

But the debate remains, should a paladin prefer healing to smiting, or smiting to healing? Or does the paladin malfunction and just stand still given such scenario?

>>54027051
I mean, they might smite only evil creatures. Evil vs. evil is a thing after all, and sometimes you'll just never get your chance to destroy something good. As for their intent - who cares? Intent is a meaningless concept.

>>54027048
>not training your body to move on muscle memory to pop a pot at the moment of your death rattle

You deserve to fall.

>>54027073
>Who says the potion works on fully turned vampires?

>>54025717
>The paladin has a potion that, if a new vampire drinks it soon after being turned, will cure it of its vampirism.

>>54027062
>failing to save your friend in time.

Nope, still time. If you give him the potion he'll be 100% back to his healthy, normal, Good-aligned self and be saved.

Still sticking with that answer?

>>54027077
>But the debate remains, should a paladin prefer healing to smiting, or smiting to healing?
The Paladin should prefer whatever does the most good. If that's healing the sick, that's what they should do. If it's killing monsters, that's what they should do.

>>54027081
>Intent is a meaningless concept.

I'm glad you admit that the vampire's intent is irrelevant and it deserves to be killed.

>>54027028

>Equivalent to rape

Well... That's the stupidest shit I have read today. Right next to anti-vaxxers

>>54027023
INT requirement - nigga what game you playing?

>>54027077
If healing achieves a better outcome, he should do that. If smiting does, then he should do that. Be flexible. Paladins can do both and they should be willing to use both.

In this case, curing the vampire both removes evil and saves an innocent victim, whereas smiting only removes evil. Therefore, the paladin should have the vampire drink the potion.

>>54027046
I would kill the vampire based on personal assumptions.

What makes the Paladin think the potion will work? What makes the paladin think the potion works permanently? What makes the paladin think his friend won't be possessed and just pretend to be his friend for the rest of his life? The reality to the Paladin is, he saw his friend die, and by heaven's will he will let his friend rest in peace.

So I beat him to a pulp.

>>54027104
It does. And it deserves to be killed with the magic potion of making it into a human.

>>54025717
>The paladin has a potion that, if a new vampire drinks it soon after being turned, will cure it of its vampirism.
If I had said potion and I knew it'd work, I'd be obliged to offer it to the vampire
every creature is entitled to redemption if it seeks it, full stop.

not giving it because I want to save it for myself is unacceptable, if there is a choice between me and another, the other must come first. the lord will provide for me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tROcKHO6nE

or that's how I'd play it.

>>54027049
#2 and acting righteous about it is a good way to fall. The focus on the smiting, the violence, lose sight of the good. If its #2 and some signs of conflicted remorse, penance, and other virtues they can probably sort it out with their god and we can do some cool quests and character development. Someone could play righteous wrath as a way to fall too, that'd be neat. But bitchbois who want to feel Good about it are the least morally complex and lest interesting to play with.

>>54027092
>Nope, still time

No, he's already an evil, full vampire.

>If you give him
>him

Your friend? He's dead. The only thing here is evil.

You're shit at this, and you don't even know it. The only reason you think you're good at weaseling out of things yet still failing at it is because your morals and logic are shit. You have absolutely no lines drawn in the sand. You call evil beings innocent and assume people have the same weak wills and double standards as you yourself.

You would make a shit role player and probably "identify" with your characters.

The paladin should do what his God tells him to do. If he is supposed to kill undead creatures then he should kill the vampire.

Morality is defined by God. Not by man.

>>54027116
>What makes the Paladin think the potion will work? What makes the paladin think the potion works permanently?

It's the Paladin's potion, he knows how it works

>What makes the paladin think his friend won't be possessed and just pretend to be his friend for the rest of his life?

The Paladin has knowledge of vampires and knows that's not how they work

>So I beat him to a pulp

Failed those Int checks pretty hard, eh?

>>54027103
>>54027114
> utilitarians
The only thing that deserves smiting more than a vampire.

>>54027110
>not vaxing against vampirism so you can smite big pharma

>>54027118

Unfortunately the paladin doesn't carry transmogify - human potions.

>>54026906
Clearly the Paladinish thing to do is to let the other person turn into a vampire, then smite it. Gotta smite all the evil.

>>54027123
>No, he's already an evil, full vampire.

>>54025717
The paladin has a potion that, if a new vampire drinks it soon after being turned, will cure it of its vampirism.

But please, continue on about how this potion that cures vampires doesn't cure vampires.

>>54027119
Undead aren't living creatures - you don't owe a spawn of a vampire anything.

>>54027122
>"I just want paladins to fall" the post

Yeah, we already knew your true colors without you showing them. If you were gonna be remorseful about smiting evil, don't become a fucking paladin.

>>54027136
He does, though. We call it a "cure vampirism" potion, but that's exactly what it is.

>>54027125
So what gods do we have here? I think we are talking about DnD, or not?

>>54027110
>thejokeurhead.gif

>>54027145

You mean the potion OP added into the situation that never existed at all to begin with?

>>54027152
If you choose to smite evil when you could prevent that evil from existing or return it to goodness, you don't deserve to be a paladin.

>>54027152
>I just want to feel good about killing bitches, the post
If you have no crisis of faith, you have no faith.

>>54027130
>It's the Paladin's potion
The fuck? My Paladin is an alchemist?
>The Paladin has knowledge of vampires and knows that's not how they work
How in the name of god could he know that's not how it works?
>Failed those Int checks pretty hard, eh?
Yes, but then again because the whole idea of undead turning to alive is retarded to me.

Alive -> dead -> undead
A potion to cure vampirism to me, it would only return you to dead, not into a human.

>>54027048
mutlclass into barbarian and take the 1 action on death thing, I forget the name.
and you can

>>54027168
>You mean the potion OP added into the situation that never existed at all to begin with?

I'm working with what's in this thread, not trying to dig up some old thread with a different situation.

Yeah, if you don't actually have a way to cure Vampirism, then you should end their existence. Ideally, doing so in a way that preserves their soul and isn't painful.

But I'm operating off of OP's premise where you have a cure in hand and the means to use it.

>>54027210
Assuming the setting have those potions, and you get attacked by a bunch of vampires, but you have no potions in hand right now. Is it okay to kill the vampires? If so, why? Wouldn't incapacitating them and then give them a potion be better?

>>54027189
>The fuck? My Paladin is an alchemist?

His, as in, in possession of it and read the helpful label on the back and knows that it does what it says

>How in the name of god could he know that's not how it works?

Because he went to Paladin school and the high cleric who has tons of divination spells and the word of god himself told him that isn't how it works

>A potion to cure vampirism to me, it would only return you to dead, not into a human.

Seems to me that'd still be preferable, since then you could also resurrect them to being alive once more. At the very least, that means the potion is more just useful for putting vampire's souls to rest, in which case you should still use it.

>>54027151
I feel the Parable of the Good Samaritan says other wise.

>>54027186
>If you have no crisis of faith, you have no faith.

Are you serious? You are literally edgier than the strawman you're accusing of being edgy with your fedora tipping.

That sentence doesn't even make sense. Just because you never doubt something doesn't make it false.

>>54027183

Smiting it prevents it from existing. If you refuse to smite evil because you want to play 20 questions every time you encounter something evil, you don't deserve to be a paladin.

You must both promote virtue and prevent vice. Doing one but not the other is doomed to fail. If all you do is promote virtue, then there is nothing to stop evil from spreading and dominating. But if all you do is prevent vice, then there is nothing to ensure that the evil you stamp out won't simply be replaced by more evil.

Curing the vampire accomplishes both more effectively than slaying it. Instead of merely preventing vice by destroying the vampire, it both prevents vice by removing the vampire and promotes virtue by restoring an innocent victim.

>>54027276

The Samaritan would be the vampire in this story, you dumbass. The paladin would go around smiting vampires, and then one day, he'd be dying, and a vampire helps save him, and he goes "oh, all vampires aren't so bad after all". That's what "the good samaritan" means you fucking idiot.

>>54027235
>Is it okay to kill the vampires?

Yes

>If so, why?

Firstly, they're attacking you. Likely out of hunger, which means they've already embraced their evil ways, and have likely been doing so for a long time.

Secondly, the potion in the OP only works on those turned recently. I'm assuming maybe a 24 hour period on this, but unless you know they are freshly turned and that you could get them a potion soon, then it's better to end their suffering and threat now than prolong it.

However, if you are in the situation where a Vampire A) isn't attacking B) was recently turned, and C) you have a potion, then yes, turning them back to a human is the correct choice.

Just because I think that curing the vampire in this case is the right course of action, doesn't mean I'm going to insist that the Paladin spare every single vampire he meets on the off chance that some alchemist will develop a better cure that can heal them entirely.

However, in a case where help is asked and help can be given? For sure

Alright let's close this thread down.

We will agree under the following terms

a) We all agree in this thread, that OP's situation is retarded, and his setting is most likely shit
b) We all agree in this thread, that there is some autist that doesn't actually care about the philosophy of this thread, and just wants Paladins to fall and make their lives miserable
c) We all know a setting that allows for resurrection is retarded for the sole reason that it makes death meaningless for everyone involved, ruining a lot of risk and mystique of the setting

This is our manifesto. Agree or die.

>>54027297

That's not the issue here. He can promote virtue and prevent vice at other times. Why, specifically, in this one specific instance, does simply preventing vice cause him to fall? It wouldn't, and it shouldn't.

>>54027308
>Agree or die.

Pffft, I can just get resurrected, fag.

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>go out vampire hunting
>only bring a meagre amount of curing potions
>didn't even bring 2 per person
Had it coming

>>54027311
I never said that it causes him to outright fall, just that he should take the opportunity to cure the vampire in order to more effectively accomplish both goals. This would be true even if he wasn't a paladin.

>>54027277
Holyshit you're actually retarded.

Have fun feeling nothing but goodness about killing and somehow not being edgy.

>>54027357
>spouts stupid shit like "you don't have faith unless you have a crisis of faith"
>accuses a player of feeling his PC's feelings
>calls others retarded

>>54027301
perhaps you didn't hear the same story as me.


It is about a traveller who is stripped of clothing, beaten, and left half dead alongside the road.
First a priest and then a Levite comes by, but both avoid the man.
Finally, a Samaritan happens upon the traveller.
Samaritans and Jews generally despised each other, but the Samaritan helps the injured man.

in essence to love one's enemy.

when I play paladins I like to put all that Sunday school I was forced to go to, to use.

>vampires hear all the clinking of your 200 bottles strapped to your person
>get ambushed
>can't defend yourself properly because you're a walking mass of glass bottles
>die

>>54027308
>R;220 I:5

Nah, let the guy scream "It's a VAMPIRE guys, what the hell?!" for a hundred more posts. It'll keep him out of the other threads for a bit.

>>54027277
>Thomas Aquinas
>Kierkegaard
>Jesus
Must have been pretty edgy and had nooooooo idea about faith.

>>54027386
>not putting it in a ye oldey squirt gun

>>54027404

Jesus never doubted God

Also no one said having a crisis means no faith, only that the opposite is not necessarily true

Your logic is complete trash

>>54027438
> "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

>>54026304
But rolling low just means that you cannot tell whether they're lying or not. It doesn't mean your character believes what they hear as the truth. You don't let dice decide what your character thinks, after all.

>>54027438
I can't even you don't even.

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>>54027438

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>>54025717
>What should the paladin do?
Check if the person became a vampire willingly.If it did,smite and cleave.If it didn't,chain/shackle/bind it and give the potion.

God,i hate summer.

>>54027395
>literal newfag namefag talking shit about someone else

wew

>>54025717
>Paladin meets daemonic entity
>Daemonic entity swears it has not done any wrong, and wants Paladin to waste rare potion to cast out it's daemon
>Paladin kills the inherently evil creature, banishes it back to the warp

I'm more inclined to think the paladin will kill the vampire and give the anti-vampire potion to an alchemist, who actually knows what is going on.

>>54027438
"Father, if it be Thy will, let this cup pass from me."

I supposed it depends on what kind of Paladin and what flavor of Vampire. If this Paladin can Detect Truth it isn't hard for him to figure out if the Vampire is legitimate in wanting to not be a Vampire. If she is, give her the potion. IN this way you A. Save an Innocent B. Deny the forces of evil a soldier C. Give the forces of Good a new soldier and D. Conserve smite power. Presumably curing Vampirism is the reason you brought along a potion of Cure Vampirism and because Vampirism is a disease and Paladins are immune to diseases it's not like you'll need it.

Seems like there's no reason not to give the vampire the potion. Turning em human again makes smiting unneccesary, and if the potion is easily acquired, then the paladin probably either has more than one on hand, or can just just go get more and come back. If the vampire is lying and doesn't drink the potion, then the paladin still has the sword.

>>54027807
This.

You don't even need to let your guard down, just fucking toss/roll it to them and keep one hand on the sword.

The very worst case is the vampire laughs at you for giving up your potion and runs off with it.

>>54025869
>>54026352
What kind of retardedness is this? Paladins have (to my knowledge) always had the ability to remove disease - assuming we're talking about DnD Paladins, otherwise all bets are off.

>At 6th level, a paladin adds the following mercies to the list of those that can be selected. Diseased: The paladin’s lay on hands ability also acts as remove disease, using the paladin’s level as the caster level.

From PFSRD, 3.5 and 3.0 paladins could do it as well. This >>54025769 >>54025801 is the only sensible answer to this question, and then only if it weren't possible for the paladin to obtain a second potion. Otherwise, the paladin would do all he could to cure the vampire, no questions asked - wisdom and grace and all that...

>>54026917
>So are you saying in that dumb setting, vampires shouldn't be killed?
If they haven't assaulted anyone, pretty much yes.

They should at least bang the vampire

The answer is:
Whatever they decide to do.

They get to decide what they want to do, and regardless of their choice, as long as they can rationalize it, they don't fall. Then, they have to live with it. They killed the woman? Well now you have to explain to her family why you decided to do that, instead of giving her the potion. Decided to give her the potion? Well, this could go several ways depending on whether the vamp was telling the truth, and then afterwards the paladin has to fight off additional vampires without getting bitten, because that potion is gone.

The DM should be smart enough to know, the object of the game is not to get the paladin to fall, it is to test that paladins faith. He might not fall right then, but if afterwards he feels that he made a wrong choice, then the paladin must then decide whether to repent, or to fall. It's his choice. The DM is here to facilitate the paladins growth as a character.


Is this really a difficult concept?

>>54028384
>Well now you have to explain to her family why you decided to do that,
"Ma'am, she was a bloody vampire. Here, I brought you her fangs"

Then I move on, never tell her about the potion

>>54025772
>I closed the thread after it got stupid,
Wait! Wait, wait, wait... What do you mean by this?

>>54026870
>The paladin only has one sword
What kind of a warrior is he with only one weapon? Give the vampire your dagger.

paladin finds a fatally wounded child as he gets close the child screams at him to get back and go east from here to a small village

the child tells the paladin to hurry da fuck up before the undead dire wolf murders everyone there

should the paladin heal the child and then move to the village? or move to the village right away and abandon the child?

bear in your mind you don't have any healing spells left, so you have to heal with the old way, with bandages and shite. And the child will die, he literally did nothing wrong and he was here in the outskirts because he was helping his grandmother hunt a rabbit

what do

>>54028408

He was OP, and deleted the thread.
I think you can still do that?

>be smart enough to carry multiple potions on me
>happen across freshly-turned vampire
>beat it within an inch of its life in order to ensure it doesn't resist
>strip it of all personal effects and clothing and smash its teeth out in order to prevent a surprise attack
>violently rape it in every orifice
>force a potion of cure vampirism down its throat once I'm done
>leave
At no point have I committed an evil act according to the idiots in this thread.

>>54028403
Consider that maybe you were brought into town to discover where all these people were disappeared to, find all the vanishing people. You collect clues, and figure it might be a vampire cult or something. Maybe you let it slip that you needed supplies to deal with vampirism, and collected supplies to make potions to cure that shit.

Or maybe you're right, maybe you did it just like that, sure. It'd be less interesting though. Perhaps the family responds afterwards, one of the family members becomes a hunter of vampires, travels around for a while, gets friendly with your paladin's order. You'd better be real tight-lipped about that potion forever, because the family member might find out, and then instead of hunting vampires, they're hunting you.

>>54028454
The child literally chose to sacrifice himself to save his village; the god(s) of the setting will sort his soul out just fine. No shit the paladin should respect his dying wishes and go kill the dire wolf.

>>54028454
Back off, draw your weapon and cast dispel on this thing. Sure as fuck it doesn't behave like wounded child would.

>>54028474
Closed the thread as in stopped reading it. Which, amazingly, is a thing you can do.
The thread got over 600 replies and fell off the board naturally.

>>54028454
Patch the child up enough that he won't die immediately, then move on to check the village.

The status of the wolf and the village is unknown. The wolf might not even be at the village yet. It might take a bit of time even once it is there to attack people. Hell, the child might simply be wrong and the wolf isn't as big a threat as all that. Or it might not even really be heading to the village.

There's a lot of uncertainty in what's happening over there. But right here, right now, I know that there's a innocent person who is dying and I can do something to stop it. So I do enough to stabilize the kid so he's out of immediate danger, then move to investigate the village.

>>54027077
>does the paladin malfunction and just stand still given such scenario?

Considering how mindless and outright robotic some people play their paladins that might actually happen.

>>54028487
>It'd be less interesting though.
I could spice it up, but you never know what kind of GM you face, so I thought that would be the safest choice that wouldn't get me in trouble.

You sound like a kinda good GM, unlike OP.

In my 20 years of gaming I have never had anyone try to tell me that my Paladin smiting evil was an unPaladin thing to do. /tg/ gets really weird about what they think Paladins ought to be.

>>54028508
>I try to hedge my bets
Fucking hell I'm glad I beat this mindset out of my players. The dire wolf shreds half the village because you were delayed getting there and the child is stabilized but crippled for life.

>>54028489
Sorry pal. But the child was actually the prodigy son of a rogue necromancer, with the abilities of illusion and undead rising. He led you to a trap, your paladin got fooled by bait, he will die in his sleep tonight.

Should have checked >>54028491

Morality of the story, the best way to Paladin is to not play one.

>>54028535
Then that's how it is. Your point?

>>54028555
If you're okay with it then I'm okay with it. Had too many players spread themselves thin and then bitch that they didn't get their golden ending where everything ended up perfectly.

>>54025717
Cure her, make her you squire. Maybe fuck her later.
Why are so many people so bad at being paladins?

>>54028570
This, give her some holy semen.

>>54028567
All you can ever really do is make the best decision you can with the information you have available at the time. It's called "trying." If you want to call that "hedging your bets" and beat down people for trying, then you're not a particularly good GM.

>>54028489
>>54028491
>>54028508
>>54028553
>>54028535
I like how many stories you can make out of one situation, thanks for your replies guys.

Now, about of all of these which one would be the storyline the events should have gone? Or does that depend solely on the GM and there is no correct way?

>>54028487
Do I have to be the one doing the healing? The obvious answer would be to have one or two of the other party members stay and tend the child while the rest of us move on to the village and deal with the wolves. And yeah, that means splitting the party which, despite what some gamers think, is not unreasonable if the situation would logically call for it.

>>54028570
Because people seem to think that self-interested utilitarianism is the default moral philosophy for all adventurers, and also think straying away from it is idiocy.

>>54028639
>Do I have to be the one doing the healing?
According to people in the thread if you don't heal people you fall

>>54028603
It's not about beating them down for "trying"; it's that when you try you have to accept that you might fail. They kept expecting the result to be all the good parts of both options and none of the bad parts and it's that attitude which I eventually ground out of them.

>>54028639
I don't think you meant to reply to me, but I agree with your decision.

>>54028683
If the simple act of spending a few minutes disinfecting someone's wounds and bandaging them is enough to let a dire wolf exterminate half a village, you're either dealing with a mythical teleporting razorwolf or you'd already be late to the proceedings.

>>54028678
Very few people have talked about falling if you make a choice aimed at saving lives.

>>54028678
No, you fall if you murder a victim in cold blood.

>>54028714
Monster attacks can definitely fuck up a small village in the span of minutes and I've actually researched what it takes to stabilize a person after they've been mauled by a wild animal; it's not a simple process.

>>54028603
Not that guy but I understand that often you want players to raise the stakes, not spread them evenly.

>>54028744
So it IS a mythical teleporting razorwolf! Thank you for the confirmation, that changes everything.
Also, it's not like you can't just have the Cleric magically heal this kid or give him a potion.

>>54028767
Granted I am exaggerating a little bit but the difference between making sure the kid lives or letting him die definitely does give a dire wolf enough time to maul several people. Closing someone up is a matter of minutes but opening them up in the first place is a matter of seconds.
And well yes if you have a convenient method like that then you'd be an idiot not to use it but the scenario as postulated states that you don't have that out available to you.

>>54025809
But if the Paladin gets bitten and starts to turn, he's inherently evil you dumb nigger

>>54028824
And because he's inherently evil, he'll do the cowardly thing and drink the potion instead of doing the righteous thing and smiting himself. Genius!

I think it's pretty simple give the potion to them, after it has been consumed just stab them. It's the only way to be sure.

>>54028861
Then why is he carrying the potion?

>>54025717
Depends on the deity. I get the "muh alignment" tax and the "paladin morality wat do" but paladins make decisions with the evil depending on what deity they follow. God of the sun and happiness and summer and patron of good? Potion. God of humanity, smiter of all undead, and patron of those who want to keep their bodies living? Probably doesn't like vampires anyway. Sword.

Just make sure it's silver or what even is the point?

>>54028873
Because without the potion, he'll instead go off to victimize someone. He's cunningly outsmarting his own evil self by using its evil nature against it!

>>54025869
>Some said that the job of a paladin is to destroy evil, not cure someone.
they were just pretending to be retarded

>>54029020
Pretending to be retarded is really fucking retarded.

If I offer her the potion, will she let me fuck her?

If I kill her, could fucking her vampire corpae cause me to fall in the eyes of say, Heironeous or Iomedae or whoever is the go-to paladin god of this universe?

This is the real question.

>>54025929
>universal laws
There are no universal laws in settings. There are universal laws in games.
If you're gonna resort to that shit le's stop roleplaying and start metagaming the DM's shit out.

As a necromancer wizard looking to become a Nosferatu, paladins scare the shit out of me

>>54029267
Fucking anything for pleasure, let alone a corpse, is generally not encouraged. However, if you are just trying to exorcise the evil from it, with your penis, then it's fine.

Any two-bit paladin can smite evil, it takes a real man of god to turn the tables and fuck evil until it's Lawful Good.

>>54025717
Do what you want, it's not MY character dammit !

>>54026077
suicide bombers deserve the death penalty

t. britbong politician

Any real paladin would offer the potion. This is a stupid question.

A Paladin operates in the name of good, and always does what's ethically best for everyone involved, not himself. A paladin would not care to know if the vampire is recently turned or doesn't really want to be cured, or was already an evil person before. A Paladin does not need a motivation to do something charitable, but needs a fucking good 100% there-is-no-other-way reason to use violence, even if the reciever of a good deed is an evil person, because good is always mightier than evil. If a paladin ended up in front of a burning building with an evil person trapped inside, the paladin would save said person anyway, because you don't fight evil only with the sword, but also showing everyone that good can be found everywhere in every action you do


Everyone who disagrees with this is a faggot with the idea that alignment are fixed things that can't change overtime, therefore is wrong

>>54026159
>disrespecting ARE TROOPS

we need another mccarthy

>>54026463
if a child is drowning a paladin of a sea god would not save them, for it would be denying their patron his tithe in exchange for which the catch is good and the seas calm

>>54029602
0/10 bait try harder

Just scanned through both threads.

This is an interpersonal problem, not an RP one. RP allows for a lot of latitude in how a character would handle a situation, even a character with as strict a moral code as a paladin. The problem here is that the guy was being an asshole to the group. You need to talk to him about not being an asshole, not tell him what his character would do. If he refuses, then reconsider whether he is a good fit for your group.

>>54029573
That's what they want, anon. They will get their reward one way or another. To deny it and discourage them you should give them life sentence.

>>54025717
This thread is exactly why I don't allow alignment masturbation in my settings and the gods don't interact with mortals in any way.
No inherently evil, no inherently good, no fallen paladins, no angels, no demons. Only people living life and making choices in a world of supernatural mysteries.

If you can be Superman but chose to be The Punisher instead, people will not threat you like Superman, they'll threat you like The Punisher. And it's not my fault, it's your choice.

>>54029633
What is the bait?

Those who die by cruel misfortune are just the god taking his tithe, and if a paladin saved them he would be interfering with the natural order

>>54029711
>>54029602
>In 1991 during the filming for 'Point Break' Keanu Reeves (whose role involved playing rookie FBI agent 'Johnny Utah') was surfing with co-stars when a small child was dragged under the waves and began to struggle to stay above surface. As his co-stars rushed to help, Reeves held out an arm in front of them, stopping them and was reported saying by Lori Petty (who played the character Tyler Endicott in the film) "The waves have claimed her, let her fight for her own life". The crew, dumbfounded, proceeded to watch her struggle until her body disappeared beneath the waves, lifeless. He was later spotted outside the child's house, making drowning gestures and thanking the family for their child's sacrifice to the great ocean.

>>54029916
Okay, you made me chuckle

>>54029679
You can use angels and demons without bringing in moral absolutes but point taken!

>>54027680
>back to the warp

I want Autists40K to leave.

>>54029654
Yeah I think that's right.

Not as interesting to discuss though.

>>54027573
>chain/shackle/bind it and give the potion.
thank you, t really bothers me how many gullible fools would just give the potion when there's no guarantee

>not lubing your cock with the potion and fucking the vampire to cure it with your dick

>>54025717

I enjoy dilemmas like this as either way I can justify that the Paladin will fall and lose all their powers which is funny from my perspective and provides good opportunities for the paladins player to roleplay better in future.

So if the Paladin chooses to cure the vampire I'd say their god abhors undead and make him far.

And if he kills it is say his god is a merciful one and abhors vengeance and he'd lose his powers.

>>54031953
8/10

>>54025717
I don't fucking know. Paladins shouldn't be able to lose their power after being elevated, because morality shouldn't be measurably true...

>>54028425
>The vampire now has both your sword and your dagger.
>The vampire continues to demand the potion

>>54031953

Used to be, Rangers could fall, too. The rules were a bit looser, but they still had to stay Good-aligned, and they had some rules about how much they could own, and where they could operate.

I'm guessing 3e just dropped that, like they did a lot of other stuff. I've certainly never seen a "Ranger falls, everyone whines" thread here.