Elves in warfare

>>53966719
>doesn't need sleep
I'm pretty sure that they would require some sort of rest getting porked by orcs all day.

>>53966719
Just because they don't require sleep doesn't mean they don't require rest.

>>53966719
>Why is this almost never pointed in fantasy games and novels?
Probably because very few of them have humans directly go against elves in warfare.

>>53966719

Probably because most authors arn't specialist in warfare/warfighting and no one really stops to think about how a fantasy race would use it's intrinsic abilities and how they affect them doing things we normally associate with ourselves.

I mean, look at most topics here. People talk about fantasy warfare as if it were bog standard medievel times in real life but who takes into account you can have war giants who are throwing boulders or some flying creature that can drop stuff on people.

>>53966719
Advance quickly against infrastructure essential to the Elves. Fighting a war of attrition is meaningless and war against the Elves should be predicated upon the existence of clear and achievable goals.

If such goals do not exist war should not be waged and is basically without meaning. This applies to all war but Elves would seem to be particularly well adapted to resistance and guerilla style war efforts.

>>53966719
About the sleeping thing, I imagine you could have a split in your forces so some of them sleep during the day and are wide awake at night. Still not ideal but it's not like sleeping at night is an unavoidable biological imperative. There are also more "extreme" forms of sleep where instead of however many straight hours of sleep you take short power naps all throughout the day. I think the most you can stretch it is sleeping eight hours a day in intermittent 15 minute naps

>>53966719
Not BATTLEs, guerrilla warfare. Go in, kill a few elves, steal their stuff, and be a distraction to a rogue sneaking past through the back and stabbing a bunch of elfs. Have half of the army sleep at day, to be alert. Dorf mercenaries.

>>53966761

Existence of magic alone would make fantasy battles much different than they were in history.

>mage calls fog = ranged weapons and artillery are now useless
>mage calls rain = say goodbye to your cavalry charge and early firearms
>mage calls earthquake = your walls are now worthless

>>53966797
I imagine the Elves would be far better than humans at that kind of war as it emphasizes individual skill and valor, traits which Elves are routinely depicted as being peerless in.

>>53966808
>having a mage advanced enough to influence the weather conditions
One properly placed assassin ruins this entire scheme.

>>53966797
>guerilla warfare
>vs elves

Dude...

>>53966797
>Not BATTLEs, guerrilla warfare. Go in, kill a few elves, steal their stuff
This usually works better when you're sneakier than the people you're trying to sneak up on. Chevauchée isn't quite so effective when you have to climb trees to get to the raiding part.

>>53966836
Thank you for pointing out the obvious more bluntly lol.

>>53966832

Calling some fog is not advanced magic. It's super low lv in almost every system.

And if assassinations were so easy the likes of Alexander or Napoleon would never survive their first campaign.

>>53966808
>both armies have a large corps of mages trained their entire lives just to be able to cast counterspell and dispel as much as possible

Don't they need to trance?

>>53966887

But then humans would get fucked vs races better at magic.

>>53966887
>>53966808
Since dispel and counterspell are relatively high-level spells that only counter one spells each use, I imagine both armies wouldn't bother to counter all the low-level spells, and it'd be a battle of feints and deception to try to trick the enemy to exhaust all their spell countermeasures before you let loose with the big guns, or to make a powerful spell seem too weak to be worth dispelling before it hits.

>>53966719
Usually elves are vastly outnumbered

>>53966943

Just few hours and they can do that any time they want.

>>53966960
Dispel and Counterspell are high level spells, so simply overwhelming them with sufficient low level spells will either force them to let some spells through or exhaust them. And the human fantasy trope is that humans will always be able to bring more mages, however weaker individually, than races that are better at magic.

>>53966863
This is another part that magic changes. (Greater) Invisibility spells, and a skilled assassin. Or an adjusted Magic Aura and Prestidigitation, to sneak toxins past Detect Poison and neutralize the taste.

>>53966832
>advanced mage
>gets offed by a meek assassin

These are mutually exclusive, anon

>>53966976

Human history shows that better trained and equipped forces can slaughter much more numerous enemy.

>>53966719
Just have Elves fight like humans. If there's a large Elf kingdom, then they fight like a large human kingdom with standards battle tactics. If they're a small group of people living in bumfuck-nowhere then have they fight like the American revolutionaries with guerrilla tactics.

>>53966719
See the Shannara Chronicles, the books.

Humans were second class citizens because magic, woodcraft, and the long memories of the elves lend themselves to maintenance of culture and technological skill gave them an advantage while humans slid slowly into a more feudalistic society - one which the elves took advantage of.

>>53967022
If the assassin is a mage as well, then you might as well as say that "the side that has the better spellcaster wins".
And honestly, that's true.

>>53967022
Magic also brings Purify Food and Drink and Detect Magic, which can be cast indiscriminately and don't require spell slots if cast as a ritual. Or See Invisibility, which is much cheaper than Greater Invisibility. Everything you mentioned has easy counters with magic.

>>53966719
It depends what the terrainbis like ans where this takes place on the turf of.

>>53967034

Even if they fight exactly like humans why won't they use the obvious advantage and force the battles to happen at night?

Imagine getting attacked by elven archers at night.

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>>53966719
>the number one killer in warfare is disease
>elfs have -2 con
interesting how people think elfs would be good at war when they are hard countered by it.

There was another good point in that thread.

With elves your entire population can fight while with humans your elderly and most women can't. Humans are good warriors only at their physical peak that is just 20-30 years.

>>53966978

This 8 hours of rest is very new an unnatural. It's not our natural sleep cycle. Before electricity, everybody had 2 sleeps, usually separated by 1 hour. You slept first for four hours, then woke for one or two hours before falling into a second four-hour sleep.

>>53967089
Fucking phone

>>53967103

Elves are immune to diseases though.

>>53966978

You can still sleep multiple times a day. It's just that Edison hated the concept of sleep as wasteful, despite the fact that he slept all the time during the day.

>>53966719
Depends on the setting.

Most elves probably just roll over and take it ass opposed to fighting, unless it's a crazy end of the world scenario, and even then they want to stand behind "Lesser races".

Even if they win a war, they lose, because they simply can't replace the loses. Diplomacy and mercenaries are how they get by.

>>53967149
bacterial infections =/= disease

>>53967149
no they arent

>>53967103
In the past the number one killer was disease because of poor medical practices and open wounds. That's really not so much an issue when magic exists and Elves are (at least stereotypically in fantasy) very good at healing.

>>53967149
Also they're twenty feet tall and made of fire.

>>53967130
Yeah, but Elves are arrogant and will soon leave out of political strife.

>>53967168
Remove disease is a 3rd level spell.
Druids and rangers have it too.

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>>53967167
>bacterial infections =/= disease
This has to be bait.

>>53967167
>The term disease broadly refers to any condition that impairs the normal functioning of the body. For this reason, diseases are associated with dysfunctioning of the body's normal homeostatic processes.[5]
>Commonly, the term is used to refer specifically to infectious diseases, which are clinically evident diseases that result from the presence of pathogenic microbial agents, including viruses, bacteria, fungi, protozoa, multicellular organisms, and aberrant proteins known as prions.
>bacteria

>>53967167

Holy shit Anon.

Also, those epidemics plaguing medieval armies were a result of terrible hygiene. Elves know how to into hygiene.

Throw a full pack of dogs infected with rabies. Rabies have no cure once the first symptoms appear.

>>53966719
Because "muh HFY"
Honestly, in the vast majority of fantasy settings where humans are inferior to every single thing that lives in the planet and are merely the "jack of all trades" races, they should be long extinct.

>>53966808

First you'd have to decide what sort of magic we're dealing with and what limitations it has or otherwise people will do what your doing and assume wizards can cause earthquaks can casually call on orbs of annihilation on a whim.

>>53967255

Elves wouldn't exterminate humanity.

They would turn them into 2nd class citizens and use them for labor.

>>53967247
>has no cure
Has no known cure based on modern scientific knowledge. Thankfully, modem scientific knowledge doesn't include magic.

>>53967247
>elves' bullshit magic cure the dogs of rabies
>elves speak/empathy with animals, and now doges are fiercely loyal to elves
>now you have elves allied with a shitton of strong doges

Not a good move, anon. Not a good move at all.

>>53967247

Send in the werewolves infected with rabies.

>>53967247
I'm pretty sure an army can take out a pack of rabid dogs, anon.

>>53966719
Swarm tactics.

>>53967302

The elves are not an army.

>>53967278
True that, but I can think of several other races that would very likely kill every human they could.

>>53966719
The real killer in night-fighting, particularly in a forest or jungle is sound. The sound of metal against metal in particular is jarring even to an untrained listener, so you're left with a choice: head inna woods knowing you're at a tactical disadvantage, or try and play a game the elves are better at by nature.

Or you could just not go inna woods at all.

>>53967322
Why wouldn't an organized, well-established civilization field an army, anon?

>>53966863
Calling fog isn't advanced, but creating a wall of fog big enough to alter the course of any battle larger than a skirnish takes a lot of power.

How do elves get any iron? Do elves mine?

>>53967348

Because they are hippies.

>>53967352
Extract iron out of the blood of living beings. Mining is for dwarves.

Stop posting these threads on /tg/ you fucking mong.

>>53967367
Even hippies would field an army if they lived next door to orcs and niggers, anon.

This all depends on what sort of elves you're talking about.

Tolkien elves are (mostly) just straight up better than humans.

D&D elves are kinda worse than humans, and I can't see a human army in that having problems with an elf one.

>>53967201
You're saying that as if it was a insignificant requirement. If the average member of the elf army is level fucking five it's better to just surrender immediately and avoid the imminent destruction of your species

>>53967201
>takes a 5th level character to cast it once a day
So you're saying it basically doesn't exist in setting?

>>53967244
[citation needed]
Pretty sure they shit in the woods and don't have running water.

>>53967403
Sweden begs to differ.

>>53967405
>D&D elves are kinda worse than humans, and I can't see a human army in that having problems with an elf one.
If you're doing a strict stat vs stat comparison, elves are worse than humans in a straight-up battle where two armies form battle-lines in broad daylight. Anything else and elves are generally better at warfare due to being better at stealth, better at shooting, better at operating without sleep, better at operating at night... Not to mention that average elf is higher level than average human. The only real advantage humans have is numbers and the fact that elves are incapable of replacing losses at a rate comparable to humans.

burn down their forests
Overhunt animals, make drums from the skin and pound them to demoralize
ask the dwarves if they would assist in slaughtering some elves

I swear you guys let your autism get the best of you more often than not these days

>>53966963
I LIKE this. It would be a mind game- like chess. Maybe ascribed openings, feints and counterfeits taught at the arcane academies.

>>53966738
Stop. I just fapped.

>>53967449
>So you're saying it basically doesn't exist in setting?
>all settings are the same

>>53967469
Be that as it may, but I'm still unconvinced that a pack of dogs is enough to defeat the entirety of elven nation, anon.

>>53967496
NO!
Elves are the best at everything. They are literally undefeatable.

Checkmate dwarf fag.

>>53967496
>making skin drums
>accusing others of having a dissociative mental condition

pick one faggot

>>53967352

Not all elves are wood elves.

>>53967524
Again, if we're assuming the elves are universally level 5 or higher there's no point in even discussing it because you're giving them a monstrous advantage. Even having enough level 5+ healers to make disease practically non-existent would be absurd

>>53966719
>how would humans deal with an enemy that can see at night just as good as during the day and don't need to sleep?
While I dunno about the "need to sleep" thing just look up how one side having standard issue night vision influenced the Falkland War and Gulf War when the other didn't to see just how big of an advantage it is.

>>53967469
inb4 analogous Sweden is the elven society in my setting

>>53967528
Not pack of dogs anon.


Now that I think about it, why would elves and humans be at war? Elves pretty much have no valuable exports except maybe elf slaves. Being a non-agrarian hunter gatherer society they don't offer a lot of loot to pillage.

>>53967496
>burn down their forests

How exactly do you do that when elves are shooting at you?

>>53967567
They like meatballs and affordable furniture?

>>53967561

Do High Elves mine, pick and shovel?

>>53967596

Why wouldn't they?

>>53967596
Well, their servants do.

>>53967616

Who are their servants?

>>53967584
You lob burning stuff in a catapult, out ranging arrows. If they want to stop you, they've got to leave the cover of their precious, now burning, forest.

>>53967584
People start huge wildfires by accident. It's not something that requires a lot of effort or precision. Are we also assuming every square inch of the forest is packed with armed, ever-alert elves?

>>53967622
Humans, orcs, and other disposable rabble.

>>53966719
Reminder that Orcs are supposed to be nocturnal.

>>53967645
>>53967656
Just pointing out that it's equivalent to saying "Defeating humans is easy, just burn down their cities".

>>53967667
Cities being burned down was not that rare.

Poison the river.

>>53967440
>>53967449
A fair point, but that depends on what level averages are around. If the lieutenants of the elven army are level 5, it would be easy enough to prevent disease from spreading.

Purify Food and Water are level 0 spells, and surely handy in avoiding contamination in first place.

But let's be honest here, if a -1 to the Fortitude saving throw meant that no one could survive a common disease, elves would never make it through their 110 years long childhood.

>>53967657
How did they get any servants without any iron in the first place?

>>53967667
Cities don't take decades to rebuild.

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>>53967584
did you know that fire can spread on its own?
i didnt belileve it at first, but its true!
you can start a small fire and it can grow to burn the whole forest?!
amazing!

>>53966719
In most human-elf wars scenarios elves have some fatal flaw which humans are capabale of exploiting to grasp victory. Or you have groups of humans who are superior to elves just because narrative reasons and their THAT good.
If you go for "realistic" super elves vs copypasted fantasy humans then knife-ears should won like 90% of time. However story with premise "humans got shat on because they are so inferior lol" are getting boring and predictable like typical HFY where it is common to have "OH BY THE STAR SPIRITS THEY HAVE A THUMB".

>>53967680

They could do that too.

And it would definitely work better on overcrowded and dirty human cities.

>>53967054

Wouldn't long memories lend themselves to bitter feuds that make working together impossible ala the split in native American tribes that led to them getting BTFO.

>>53967695
Obviously they mined the iron by themselves in the beginning, but don't need to do it any more.

>>53967728

How about "humans got shat on because elves send a group of commandos to poison water sources in every major human city with magic poison potions"?

>>53967541
I think they ment animal skin drums.

>>53967695
Magic doesn't take any iron to cast

>>53967710
If only the race famous for living in forests could somehow develop methods for fighting forest fires!

>>53967708

Are you retarded? Cities don't just spring into existence in a year or two. Especially back in the day, they took centuries to form due to the resource and infrastructure requirements.

>>53967563

But it takes 100 years to get a mature elf

>>53966719

Depends on the setting, I suppose. Stereotypical Elves are usually decedent and/or dying, and to that end it'd be rather simple for a more cunning and ruthless enemy to take advantage of knowing how your enemy thinks via traps and the like.

Assuming it's just humans fighting Elves and that magic is irrelevant (because if it isn't, that radically alters warfare in a way that cannot be discussed without setting parameters), then the best option would probably be technological advancements like the ability to just set the whole goddamn forest ablaze with substances that don't go out when you apply water. Alternatively, you can go out of your way to make Elves fight decisive battles of attrition, like making them defend their magical grove that has little strategic value but great spiritual/religious/symbolic one: at best they win a Pyrrhic victory given the rate at which they produce.

>>53967764
This whole thread has played out like a childish game of pretend. "Well MY humans burn down your forest!" "yeah but MY ELVES have a perfect magical counter for fire, and they poison ALLLL your water sources with magic poison, next"

>>53967496
>burn down their forests

Because that worked so well in Vietnam right?

And that was with napalms and planes. Against normal jungle not magical elf forests.

>>53967807
I blame the subset of HFY retards who cannot tolerate elves being competent at anything ever.

>>53967751
>>53967762
Is it really possible for a race that's forever in decline to bootstrap themselves against others like that?

>>53967783
Okay, absolutely all elves without exception are at least level 5, they effortlessly shitstomp the human invaders, force all other races to bend their knee to them and become the master race.

>>53967667
Fire was historically a huge hazard to cities.

Quite a few Mongol victories composed of "Defeating [x person] is easy, jut burn down their cities.

>>53967834
>elves are in decline because reasons

Probably the worst fantasy trope.

>>53967854

Most people really have no idea how dangerous fires were in medieval cities.

>>53967756
If you are fine with humans having zero counter measures against such thing or even completely lack concept of terror tactics it is great millitary move.
But the more you tap into one side superiority in that argument the more it is getting close to scenario of modern day millitary invading North Sentinel Islands.

>>53967862
If they weren't then the other races would have long been sidelined and we'd be reading a story about High Elf Beauregarde and his buffoonish but loyal porch human or something like that.

>>53966832

Communions, anon.

It's how Ti'en Chi makes all their astral 1 mages useful in combat.

>>53967812
It worked amazing. The elf equivalents died in droves in Vietnam.

>>53967901
My nigga.
Ermor nerf when?

>>53967890

Elves are more agile, far better at stealth and can see at night.

How exactly would human guards deal with elf commandos?

And how would human equivalent infiltrate elf cities?

>>53967834
see Melnibonéans

>>53967912
Small asians in pajamas aren't even close to elf equivalents, anon.

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>>53967946
>Elric and the Melnibonean people are descended from dragons. Melnibonean dragon ancestry is discussed at length in the novel, Heart of the Dragon, an untold tale of Elric. — skilled with magic and beautiful, though psychologically similar to cats, with a callous nature.

>>53967596

Iron elves do. Although it's more excavation equipment, really.

If they didn't have iron they'd all be dead.

>>53967912
Yeah, won us the war, am I right?

>>53967912

And yet they won. While fighting a 20x stronger enemy.

>>53968001
>>53968003
>dodging the point this hard
I guarantee you there'd not be a shred of backlash back home in a race war against the elves.

>>53968003

So who's the elf China with a billion elf army at the border? The drow?

History has demonstrated time and time again that the more disciplined, technologically advanced, trained, and elite a given fighting force is, the more it absolutely crushes opposition that can only boast a numbers advantage. Given that in traditional fantasy, magic functions identically to technology, elves essentially check every box on that list. Elven commanders, magicians, and footsoldiers will have centuries more experience and wisdom than human equivalents.

Without a strict geography and strict setting rules to go off of, Elves are going to have an insurmountable advantage in nearly all battles, even without factoring in the possibility of guerilla tactics. Humans may have a chance if they muster an army and attack while the Elves are unprepared, but that is unlikely if we are going off of Tolkein rules and Elves simply have no need to sleep every single day nor do they tire from running for days on end. It is actually more likely for the Elves to notice the humans preparing to invade due to their strong powers of observation developed by age and initiate a pre-emptive strike of some sort to prevent the battle from ever reaching their lands.

While it is true that burning down Elven forests would deprive them of much of their homefield advantage, if Tolkein is any indication this would not make Elves any less dangerous as warriors and magicians, as they are known for adventures taking them across the ends of the Earth. Moreover it seems unlikely that the Elves who have made their home in such a place and have been fighting humans and other races for eons would have developed absolutely no countermeasures for arson. But the most crucial thing is that once humans begin to burn forests down, the Elves no longer have a 'hippie' leg to stand on and are highly liable to initiate a complete purge of all humans as it has stopped being a war for supremacy and instead a war for survival. For this reason humanity's best interest is NEVER to resort to forest burning.

>>53967943
>How exactly would human guards deal with elf commandos?
By having well thought guarding system which takes into account strength and tactics of their enemies?

>>53966719
>how would humans deal with an enemy that can see at night just as good as during the day and don't need to sleep?
The same way the English defeated the Welsh. Be better at winning big battles. You can't run and hide forever and when you make your stand a larger and/or better equipped enemy will push your shit in.
>English are Humans
>Welsh are Elves
>Scottish are Dwarves

>>53967971
They also had slaves of younger races and habitually steamrolled them when they got uppity.

Which kinda was the point.

>>53968049
>my chosen people can do no wrong
Not a good platform for discussion.

>>53968027
>History has demonstrated time and time again that the more disciplined, technologically advanced, trained, and elite a given fighting force is, the more it absolutely crushes opposition that can only boast a numbers advantage
Bullshit. Numerical advantage wins 90% of the time unless the opposition has REALLY good technological advantage.

>>53968026
... now this would make for an interesting setting

>>53968029
No guarding system is foolproof t. real world.

>>53967937

They're not all that hard to fight, it's just you get fucking nothing for doing it.

Who wants to fight for a twisted hellscape, anyway? So it's a damned if you do, damned if you don't thing.

At least with elves you get wood.

>>53968027

>History has demonstrated time and time again that the more disciplined, technologically advanced, trained, and elite a given fighting force is, the more it absolutely crushes opposition that can only boast a numbers advantage.

Except when it doesn't.
> French vs Germans
> Germans vs Russia
> French vs Russia
>USA vs vietnam

There's no hard and fast rule about tech vs numbers. Strategy and context matter. Most likely elves would not want to go to total war and instead try to become some kind of indespensible economic ally, like how China is to the US now, where war is all but impossible

>>53967965
It is if you want to use Vietnam as an a comparison.
>>53968001
>won
>>53968003
>won
You keep using that word...

>>53968068
You asked "Is it really possible for a race that's forever in decline to bootstrap themselves against others like that?" and I answered yes, there are examples of such. I don't see what's the problem here?

>>53968083
And even well trained and prepared special forces tends to mess up quite a lot
t. real world.

>>53968106
Why would you want to use Vietnam as a comparison, when there is nothing elf-like about either side of the conflict? It's just pointless.

>>53968106

Burgers, still butthurt about rice farmers to this day.

>>53966719
Because humans aren't as bad at night battles as you think?

>>53968086
>They're not all that hard to fight, it's just you get fucking nothing for doing it.
That's the problem. If you can deal with the fact they're moving stacks of 500+ troops, you have to deal with fucktarded logistics in order to take the fight to them, or just deal with the fact that you'll have to occasionally deal with the occasional wave of thousands of undead on a border.

This is assuming they don't slowly spread the hellscape into your territory, or turn the sun's on off switch to off.

>>53968075
>Rorke's Drift
>Chimoio Raid
>Kabarebe Blitz

>>53968112
Generally we want to see real-world referents to draw from, not something some guy made up one time.

>>53968130
Sure, but one side can have overwhelming advantage, and in fantasy setting it goes to elves thanks to their superior abilities.

>>53968099
> French vs Germans

Germans were not more advanced. They were more advanced in 1870 war and look how that turned out.

> Germans vs Russia

Won because American industry superior to German industry was behind them.

> French vs Russia

Won because weather.

>USA vs vietnam

Political war where one side was not even allowed to invade the other country.

And all those examples were pretty modern. Now take a look at Medieval or Renaissance battles with smaller elite force taking larger but worse in quality force.

>>53968162
Why would real world references would apply to fantasy setting? That's retarded.

>>53968162
Did you miss the part where I said 90% and not 100%? Yes, there are exceptions, but unless you're using rifles against primitives, the numbers win most of the time.

>>53968139

We really are. Night vision was a ridiculous advantage even in the 90's.

>>53968099
>Germans vs Russia
Have almost equal millitary numbers, big loses shown in world war 2 on soviet side mostly contains annihilated and purged POW, soviet serfs and collateral damage civics.
>French vs Russia
Napoleon rounded up all nations of Europe before invaiding and only lost due to strategical errors and attrition.
>USA vs vietnam
In modern wars you have politics first and warfare later. It is the only reason why USA lost and them and soviets havent won Afghanistan in their times.

>>53968226
It's the only way we can ensure the discussion doesn't boil down to "nuh uh you can't do that but I can".

>>53968227
Only the first example was "rifles against primitives".

>>53968206
>Won because American industry superior to German industry was behind them.
Nice meme, amerifat. Lend lease didn't contribute to Soviet war effort in significant amounts until they were already winning.

>>53968075

Alexander the Great did not have great sweeping technological advantages over his enemies. What he did have was a small, highly trained, elite force of Macedonians that knew what they were doing and how to obey orders. With just that, he defeated enemy forces much larger than his own time and time again.

The Romans demonstrated the same principle against their opponents. Legions often battled against numerically superior armies, but they still won much more often than they lost because of their superior discipline. If you were to listen to the armchair historians here on /tg/, they should have lost much more often due to an inherent technological disadvantage from using swords, not spears, but thankfully we know better than that. Just like we know better than to think that numbers are the end all of wars.

Throughout medieval times, having larger armies turned out to be extremely burdensome on one's own economy for very little gain as most of those armies were not career soldiers, and did not have the discipline and training to fight well enough to make a difference. Many times armies of significantly smaller size, sometimes thousands smaller, defeated larger and better equipped forces. Charles Martel defeated a vastly numerically superior force of Saracens while lacking any cavalry at all thanks to exploiting a forest to break their cavalry charges. Martel himself was leading a small, elite force of heavy infantry that was able to obey his order to hold fast against overwhelming odds and thanks to that, he crushed the Saracens viciously.

>>53968136
I don't. The anon that said: >>53967812 did.

>>53968137
Not really.

It's just funny when non-burgers bring it up as an example of how superior sneaky jungle fighting is in comparison to modern weapons and mega war-crime level uses of napalm.

>>53968003
They didn't win, America lost, but Vietnam didn't win. America lost due to demoralization and propaganda, not because of force or anything of that sort.

>>53968228
D&D low-light vision isn't that

>>53968246
>Only the first example was "rifles against primitives".
You seem to have trouble comprehending what 9/10 means.

>>53968075
>Bullshit. Numerical advantage wins 90% of the time unless the opposition has REALLY good technological advantage.

Go take a look at battles with winged hussars.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kirchholm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Berestechko

>>53968247
Keep thinking that, tankie, maybe someday people will think your comments on an anime imageboard are of more value than Zhukov's.

>>53968154

I do enjoy turning off the sun as Ermor, although its' dangerous as everyone will suddenly dogpile you all at once.

You know, if they weren't already.

>>53968246
Game rules provide the reference you need for the discussion. Duh.

>>53968268
>it's okay any examples you can give are just part of the 10%
Try harder.

>>53968271
Keep deluding yourself by not looking at the facts.

>>53968247

How to detect a potato the post. Half of the food soviet soldiers were eating came from lend lease.

>>53968247
>>53968206
You both not counting that USA were selling USSR machine tools long before WW2 but for which USSR paid double price with gold because nobody else was traiding with them and commies fucked any form of industrial equpment Russian Empire had.

>>53968257
Reading the logistics book, it seems like the biggest issue of fielding an army is mostly the food. Like an army has to constantly keep moving if they want to be fed, where staying in one spot would drain resources too quickly.

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>>53968292
>"Now they say that the allies never helped us, but it can't be denied that the Americans gave us so many goods without which we wouldn't have been able to form our reserves and continue the war," Soviet General Georgy Zhukov said after the end of WWII.
>"We didn’t have explosives, gunpowder. We didn’t have anything to charge our rifle cartridges with. The Americans really saved us with their gunpowder and explosives. And how much sheet steel they gave us! How could we have produced our tanks without American steel? But now they make it seem as if we had an abundance of all that. Without American trucks we wouldn’t have had anything to pull our artillery with."

>>53968276
Ermor is easymode. I have played them a few times though, mostly so I could be a completionist and resarch/cast all of the spells.

>>53968026
You're mixing up Korea and Vietnam, the Chinese helped the Vietnam only grudgingly since they were in the USSR's camp.

They also tried to invade Vietnam right after patching things up with the US. They didn't do so well either.

>>53968247
>Lend lease didn't contribute to Soviet war effort in significant amounts until they were already winning.
Not even American, but can you cite a source for that utter and complete bullshit?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lend-Lease#Soviet_Cold_War_Characterization_of_U.S._Contributions

In the light of the Cold War, the Soviet Union deliberately downplayed the importance of Lend-Lease. Of course the American image of the superior American soldier singlehandedly saving cowardly Europeans from the German devil is utterly retarded, but economically America did singlehandedly bankroll Germany's enemies.

>>53968262
>Vietnam didn't win
The fact that you're talking about Vietnam and not North Vietnam proves you wrong.

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>>53968003
>>53968001
>>53967812

I'm going to have to chime in here, because it's clear you guys don't actually know anything about the war.

The US was absolutely shitting all over the N. Vietnamese in combat. Almost every major engagement resulted in catastrophic N.V. losses. Even the infamous Tet Offensive was a complete disaster as far as military goals were concerned.

But the ever-increasing televised coverage of the war made the folks at home think it was worse than it actually was. The N.V. were well aware of this and deliberately turned every battle into as much of a bloodbath as they possibly could. They "leaked" footage of civilian casualties and collateral damage. They used the media to blow things out of proportion.

The result is that the American public saw the war as a pointless bloodbath, and constantly pressured the government to pull out. The civil unrest at home outweighed any potential benefits of victory, so the US pulled out of the war.

The Vietnam War is literally a case of losing every battle, but still winning the war.

>>53968308
Which is where mass production of Lembas wafers or setting equivalent would be massively helpful. Compact, and one feeds a soldier for a solid week.

>>53968320

Looks like Zhukow was smarter than modern Putin drones.

>>53968366
Look at the numbers in the wikipedia article you yourself linked. The vast majority of lend-lease aid came after 1942, when the German offensive had already been stopped.

>>53968320
>gave
>lend-lease

You mean sold for a huge profit. Americans are soulless, they wouldn't give you a bucket of water if you were on fire unless you paid them 150% of it's market value + tip.

>>53968458
That doesn't mean that the amount shipped over at or before 1942 wasn't vital, simply that even more was provided afterwards.

Humans have a naturally longer than 24 hour circadian rhythm with a polyphasic (specifically biphasic) sleep schedule, with a large portion of the population tending naturally toward nocturnal habits. The "solid 8 hours of sleep until the sun comes up and work all day" bullshit is purely a product of the industrial revolution, and does not reflect natural human biology; It is perpetuated now because even ignoring the continued existence of industry, formalised schooling means most humans have to be up around the same time throughout their childhood and adolescence. So sleep wouldn't matter, in a pre-industrial setting or a setting where industry was irrelevant because of magic we would have nocturnal armies as well.

As for seeing in the dark, that's a relatively simple problem to solve. As it represents a need, undoubtedly magic, technology or a combination of the two would find a means to see at night. Pretty sure that's a simple and low-cost enchantment in most settings, in fact, so you could have a handful of wizards cast it on whole armies. On the other hand, something as simple as a lantern shield could be used both to provide humans with light AND blind their enemies, whose eyes are adjusted to the dark (the purpose of a lantern shield in irl nocturnal combat).

Now, elves with (modern) firearms are scary. They wouldn't even have to march in a group, they could hide all over the place just picking people off as extremely effective snipers. I suspect at that point it would come to a head where humans simply set their forests on fire.

Of course, in any setting that wasn't dumb flat bullshit where everything is black and white, it would pretty much never be humans vs elves unless it was actually a xenophobia-fueled race war; There would probably be both humans and elves on both sides of a political or territorial war.

>>53968458
First of all, the vast majority coming in after 1942 doesn't mean there wasn't any beforehand.
Secondly, why do you think the German offensive had already stopped? Because the Soviet Union was able to capitalize on its gains. The victory at Stalingrad would've been a meaningless bloodbath if it had exhausted Russia's industry to the point of being unable to resist. The Germans were only on the defensive because the Russians managed to seize the initiative and move offensively.

>>53968458
>“Today [1963] some say the Allies didn’t really help us…But listen, one cannot deny that the Americans shipped over to us material without which we could not have equipped our armies held in reserve or been able to continue the war.”[12] Marshall Zhukov according to Weeks even goes on further to state that the Soviet government engaged in the calculated use of propaganda to systemically demean the importance of the Allied Lend-Lease Program, believing that it distracted from the heroism and sacrifice of the Soviet soldier and people

I guess you know more than the greatest Soviet commander of the war.

>>53968393
>modern Putin drones

What's Trump got to do with this?

>>53967812
It always works NOT in a rainforest

>>53968492
>You mean sold for a huge profit.
Except it wasn't.
>In practice, very little was returned except for a few ships. Since the Lend-Lease agreement did not provide any practical mechanism for allied nations to make good on any materials or equipment destroyed in the war, the United States government was in fact implicitly conceding that it did not expect the return of every piece of material and equipment that it was loaning to its allies. Any suggestion otherwise in the part of the administration was intended more as political rhetoric to keep public opinion on its side as opposed to serious foreign policy. The intended and actual commitment the United States expected from its allies was to prevent the ravages of the conflict from reaching the North American continent. This in turn helped to ensure that the United States would be the world's strongest most prosperous industrial power by the end of the war.
Also, speaking of Zhukov, it seems like Stalin agreed too:
>Joseph Stalin, during the Tehran Conference in 1943, acknowledged publicly the importance of American efforts during a dinner at the conference: "Without American production the United Nations [the Allies] could never have won the war."[33][34]

>>53968458
>when the German offensive had already been stopped.
The offensive was stopped but that's a far cry from winning the war.

And that also discounts the impact of the lend lease before that point, without which the Germans would have pushed even further east.

the fuck does this have to do with elves?

>>53968458
If you can't continue the war then you lose it regardless of whether you managed to halt an offensive in the past.

>>53968492
>complaining about people not helping you commit war crimes and create mass graves for free

>>53968514
Your quote doesn't address his point.

>>53968206
What about Rome?

>>53967656
>>53967584
desu forest fires are a natural part of ecological succession, so either the Elves found a way such that forest fires don't occur anymore (at which the forest would probably be super flammable) or they would have found a way to control forest fires such that they aren't a problem (at which the fires probably won't matter.)

So either the Elves are going to get completely roasted or the fire won't matter.

>>53968527
>during the Tehran Conference in 1943
>won the war

seems legit.

>>53968540

Except it literally does? Nazis were stopped because Stalin threw everything he had at them. Without Lend Lease equipping new armies being drafted and American steel used to produce weapons they would have nothing in few more months.

>>53968492
>sells you much needed supplies
>forgives the debt later anyways
Americans really were bros.

>>53968458
When the German Offensive was stopped they were ass deep into most of the Soviet Union's population centers.

It's like saying the French won the war at the Marne in WWI and should have just dug in, even though Germany was literally sitting on top of most of France's factories for the four subsequent years.

>>53966808
>implying a wizard can do any of those things

>>53966719

Outside of D&D and directly influenced works, in what settings do Elves not actually sleep? I always thought that D&D was the odd one out in regards to this aspect of it's Elves.

>>53968613

They can in 90% of fantasy systems.

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>>53966719
What's going on in this thread? Where are the elves?

>>53968634

They don't need to sleep like humans in Tolkien too. They do from time to time but don't need to every day.

>>53968634
Even in D&D they are effectively just very light sleepers that sleep sitting up, aren't they? They spend less time in meditation than other races do sleeping, but they still need regular "totally not sleep meditation" periods iirc.

>>53968656
Welcome to /tg/ thread mission creep.

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>>53968656

Here's one.

>>53968656
You must be new here

>>53968656
Elves are the best because the Soviets won WW2 without American materiel, and America lost Vietnam because fire and napalm are proven to be completely ineffective in jungle fighting.

It's that simple anon. What do you not get?

>>53966738
Delete that

>>53968635
Sound like shit systems if you ask me.

>>53968656
It is a proud and noble /tg/ tradition to make sure any arbitrary thread is entirely about russian war tactics within 200 posts. Really sad that this tradition is dying out now, but good to see it alive in threads like these.

>>53968661

But they still definitely sleep. There are numerous references both to sleeping elves in Tolkein and the beds made for such.They sleep differently to Humans, but it's still always called sleep.

>>53968770

Yeah, D&D is the only one where they literally can't sleep.

>>53967031
Russia pulled it off. And half of them didn't have weapons for fucks sake.

Attrition would be the easiest way to victory. Bomb cities to dust, poison rivers, kill cattle, burn crops, scorched Earth. Assuming no OP magic however.

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>>53968830
>half of them didn't have weapons for fucks sake
Idiot.

>>53968830
>And half of them didn't have weapons for fucks sake.
Stop taking enemy at the gates literally. There were times in the middle of barbarossa where individual units might be low on supply and ammunition, but for most of the war they were well supplied and armed.

>>53968830
Do you mean firearms? No army has ever had a lack of weapons.

>>53968613
If you have a problem with wizards creating fog or rain you must have some fucking high standards for magic.

>>53968830
>Russia pulled it off

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Klushino

Okay.

>>53967352
Ironwood trees are planted over ore rich areas so the roots seek it out and extract it over the course of it's life. Elves harvest these trees and refine them into usable metal

>>53968958
Well I mean between Poland and Russia one nation got partitioned and one nation took part in the partitioning and I'm pretty sure the first one was Poland.

>>53968947
Not him and I think it's fair for weather magic to exist, but how weather magic works is a bit of a puzzle compared to other magic in most contexts. I mean, weather comes from the motion of massive amounts of air. As a natural force that requires HUGE amounts of energy to alter, it seems more like the purview of a cleric petitioning a god to change. Doesn't require high standards to come to this conclusion, just any setting where magic works with some kind of internal logic.

Of course, since the weather is pretty much constantly changing anyway, there's probably a lot of ways wizards could manipulate it indirectly but deliberately and in a predictable fashion.

>>53968509
>snipers
Snipers are not as amazing as you think.

>>53967367
>What is 1970s American terrorism

>>53968982

Three European superpowers ganging up on one and winning is how related to smaller force of elite warriors being superior to larger force of non elite warriors how exactly?

>>53969007
Average snipers might not be. Extremely effective snipers are, and pretty much every elf would be an extremely effective sniper. We're talking nearly their entire army being able to consistently pick off targets a kilometer or more away, at night, and being hidden all over the landscape in whatever numbers they could muster.

>>53969007
Individual snipers aren't because they are easily overwhelmed and outmassed by the general infantry. When every member of the general infantry is a marksman that changes somewhat.

>>53967103
Unless you think all elves died of dysentery centuries ago you'd think that their entire society properly adapted around their weaker constitution. Like proper advances in medicine and basic hygiene

>>53969044
Not really. Every marine is a marksman.

>>53969027
Elite Warriors sometimes win battles, but a sufficient quantity of non elite warriors come up on top. So eventually Russia pulled it off, which is directly related to the post you quoted.

>>53966963
This is why Cloudkill was invented. It looks exactly like Fog, but then it ruins everything it touches.

>>53968206
>1871 war
ftfy

>>53969065
>Every marine is a marksman.
No, he isn't. That's why marine squads have designated marksmen.

>>53969041
>Extremely effective snipers are, and pretty much every elf would be an extremely effective sniper.
Nope. First of all, in no game system do elves have telescopic vision to that degree. Secondly, in the majority of game systems, most members of any given playable race are comparable to average joe dirt, plus or minus racial tendencies.

>>53969103
Wrong. Marines have a specialist marksman, but they are all expected and trained to be above average riflemen.

>>53969130
So are the marines more effective than the army as infantry because they are above average riflemen?

>>53969115
>First of all, in no game system do elves have telescopic vision to that degree
This might surprise you, but modern firearms sometimes have "scopes" on the top. This is actually short for "telescope." Anyone using one has telescopic vision.

What the elf brings to the table is his freaky deaky innate elven understanding of wind patterns, gravity and exactly how they will affect trajectory over a huge distance, which along with superhuman manual dexterity is why elves with bows already function like humans with rifles (in most settings).

>>53967103
>>elfs have -2 con

...In no system remotely relevant today.

-2 Con was just a balance thing for early D&D. It's gone the way of the dodo because Wizards realized racial demodifiers were dumb as hell and usually didn't even fit the fluff.

>>53969171
In terms of numbers and logistics? No. The Army is better at that. But as the vanguard of the US armed forces, you can't ask for much better.

>>53969180
But elves are bad at math.

>>53969130
Which is why they all use carbines now right?

>>53969180
No, I think you've extrapolated far more than most games and settings do about the natural grace of elves. Most games describe them as dexterous and agile, but not as if every elf is a commando.

>>53969199
>If every member of a race's infantry was a marksman they'd be more effective as an infantry force
>not really, the marines are all marksmen
>so is the average Marine more effective than the average GI?
>yes, if not in numbers or logistics
I'm glad we agree?

>>53969130
They are not, however, all expected and trained to be Simo Häyhä. They are also considered more effective, even in smaller forces, than regular infantry, so yeah. Just scale that up appropriately. Marines are human marksman, elven snipers would be elven marksmen you thick piece of shit

>>53969259
Infantry is about more than shooting dudes good.

>>53969290
Shooting dudes good is a major part of it though.

>>53969239
>Most games describe them as dexterous and agile, but not as if every elf is a commando.

To be fair, the standard stats for elves make the average elf in D&D overwhelmingly better than the average human.

Full movement through difficult terrain, darkvision, and that +2 Dex really go far. Depending on the edition and subrace all elves may additionally have stuff like Elven Accuracy, Darkness, Faerie Fire, Levitation, Fey Step, etc.

>>53969313
>To be fair, the standard stats for elves make the average elf in D&D overwhelmingly better than the average human.
Bonus feat.

>>53969301
And as we all know, elven men are very enthusiastic about shooting other dudes good. Right in the rump.

>>53969301
Shooting dudes good is arguably the least important part of effective infantry. Shooting dudes will win a battle, logistics win wars.

>>53969318
To be fair to them, it's hard for dwarves and elves to tell whether the other fellow is a dude until they're in the rump.

>>53966960

Life isn't fair anon

>>53969115
>most members of any given playable race are comparable to average joe dirt, plus or minus racial tendencies.
This. Consider that elves practice and train for hundreds of years and at the end of it are still commoners, but with slightly better aim.

>>53969313
Also, remember, we're probably mixing a lot of different 'elf' canons here.

I mean, what exactly are the 'elves' we're talking about? D&D Wood Elves? D&D Sun Elves? D&D Eladrin? WHFB High Elves, WHFB Wood Elves? Lorwyn Elves?

There's a fuckton of different elves. If we're talking WHFB Welves or Lorwyn elves then they really are super SUPER better at commando shit. If we're talking elves from that recent vidya series by Bioware that I can never fucking remember the name of, they're basically just pointy eared humans.

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>>53969334
What? Dwarves have pretty significant gender dimorphism.

>>53969329
>Shooting dudes will win a battle, logistics win wars
Okay this is circlejerking way too far to the other side. I agree that logistics win wars, but let's not go around pretending that sending an army of quakers to war will end in a victory as long as they are issued all the right equipment. Shooting dudes is probably the most important part. No war has been won without winning battles; logistics ensure that you keep winning them.

>>53969317
We're talking specifically at commando shit.

Bonus feat or no, at character creation the elf will be better at mobility and sneaky shit if that's what he's dumping his stats into.

>>53969387
Get better at charop.

>>53969081

That's not what happened at all.

>>53969365
I talk EXCLUSIVELY about elder scrolls dark elves, the dark and mysterious stealth archers from the island of Morrowind.

>>53969401
>That's not what happened at all
Yeah?
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Russian_Wars

>>53966719
>deal with an enemy that can see at night
night vision goggles

>just as good as during the day and don't need to sleep
energy drinks

>>53969365
>There's a fuckton of different elves.
This, please. Holy fuck you guys. Are we talking Tolkien elves which are basically angels? If so, yes they are explicitly better at everything unless you're The One True King, and even then. Are we talking generic D&D elf? No, humans are the race for optimizing in D&D.

>>53969426
And as you know night vision goggles are a regular part of the average knight's arsenal

>>53969442
they wouldnt be called knight vision goggles then

>>53967187

have you seen how many different kinds there are?

i wouldn't be surpised if there are elves like that

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>>53969481
Okay I walked into that

>>53969375
This is speaking from reality, but the relative skill difference between individual soldiers isn't as big of a deal as it would be in a tabletop game.

>>53969426
>>53969481
>a horde of nights with NVGs build into their helmets which also have cup holders for energy drinks on the side leading into a straw that slips though a port on the faceguard fighting elves with sniper rifles
Is this shadowrun

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>>53969481
send help

>>53969499
But it is. Look at the Arab-Israeli Wars, where the Arab nations had equal or sometimes superior equipment, but lost because of poor communications, training, and organizational culture.

Logistics, numbers, technology, morale and training/skill can all be counterbalanced by sufficient quantity of another quality, but that doesn't mean any of them are not important.

>>53967187
>george washington was an elf
how enlightening

>>53969582
Logistics covers more than just supplies. It also covers communications and organization.

>>53969603
Training/skill also covers communications and organizations as well.

>>53966719
Most fantasy games don't deal with things like hunger, thirst, or exhaustion to any meaningful extent.

>>53969387
In 5e? Nah. As level 1 fighters, using point buy and assuming they both spec for Dex, humans and elves would begin at the same Dex modifier (16 vs 17 which is still +3, and most common soldiers wouldn't even get far enough to get their first ASI). Wood elves get an extra 5 feet of movement. The human can pick mobile, which allows him to ignore difficult terrain when dashing and gives 5 feet of movement over the wood elf, or sharpshooter which lets him ignore partial cover and shoot at long distances without disadvantage, plus getting +10 damage by taking -5 to attack roll which would be enough to at least 2-hit KO any first level character assuming they hit and then double-tapped with another shot. So they can choose to be either much more mobile OR much more shooty than the elf. Darkvision is still a problem, though.

Another issue is that most the people in the conflict won't be level 1 fighters, and elves get proficiency with certain martial weapons as a racial trait, plus the ability to hide when only lightly obscured by foliage. Although being slightly better warriors on average won't be all that relevant if they're massively outnumbered.

>>53969509
>a horde of nights
>nights
>sentient darkness moves in to defeat the elves, who cannot see darkness due to perfect nightvision
>the turn tables are turned

>>53969629
And they're all wired on taurine on top of that.

>>53969621
Humans really are the master race of 5e. Half elves are right after them.

>>53969688
Free Feat too strong. Especially since a lot of them give you a point in a stat anyway.

>>53969688
Feats are just too good in 5e for a race to get a free one.

>>53969841
Most are crap. There's just like 5 that are ridiculously better than the rest

>>53969969
Sentinel, PAM, GWF, Mobile, CBE, Sharpshooter, Lucky and Ritual Caster are all great, though.

Magical Adept, Mounted Combatant, Spell Sniper, War Caster, Martial Adept and Skulker can all be good depending on the setting.

The only absolute garbo ones are Charger, Grappler, Elemental Adept and Defensive Duelist.

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>>53966719
dark vision only works out to 30ft.
outside nights are never dark enough to be blind.
its irrelevent for war.

>>53966719
outbreeding. in all out war, elves can't cover their losses as easy as mankind.

This whole thread is the faggotiest game of pretend ever, significantly worse then D&D.
>MY humans would win!
>NUUUU, MY ELVES WOULD BULLSHIT COUNTER!
>MY HUMIES BULLSHIT COUNTER BACK!

And on and on and on in an endless circlejerk.

>>53970298
>And on and on and on in an endless circlejerk.
while you are not wrong, you are also describing 90% of this board's content.

>>53970265
same as dragons. must be some mindbreaking shit to see centuries of waves after waves of humans crashing against your ranks, just to cut you down a few at a time

>>53970265
It's more initial numbers. The war would have to last over ~20 years for actual breeding replenishing numbers to matter at all.

>>53970324
Yeah, that's why /tg/ is garbage.

>>53970340
Well on the civilizational scale, it doesn't have to be a single war. Humans would not only outnumber elves in any given conflict, they'd have totally replenished by the next war while the elves have not.

>>53970298
It's theorycrafting for the refinement of settings. Arbitrary rules don't make RPGs good, believability/storytelling gives it the context to be better than dice poker and for that we need to fully explore ideas like this.

hnnnnnnnnNNNNNN TURUK TURUK TURUK TURUK TURUK TURUK TURUK NDADAA TURUK TURUK TURUK TURUK TURUK TURUK TURUK NDADADA TURUK TURUK TURUK TURUK TURUK TURUK NNDADADA HEY JA WODEY HIMBEWODEWOJE HUMEBOWOMBE WO JE UN DE BO JE WUNDEWOBEWO JE TURUK TURUK TURUK TURUK TURUK TURUK NDADA

>>53970371
Well, yeah, there's that if the two are divided into racially distinct armies. Speaking of the Thalmor, when is /tgesg/ starting up this weekend?

>>53970334
I imagine at a certain point most dragons just get sick of it all, pretend to be killed, polymorph into a human in the ensuing celebration and then run off with the best of their hoard rather than deal with incinerating the 12th holy crusade to liberate the mines of Horath or something.

>>53970376
Except you double fail since people haven't even established a baseline of setting rules and limitations to work from.
Instead you're just pulling random and sometimes mutually contradicting "facts" out of each other's asses without establishing baseline rules or a solid ground to begin debate or discussion.

You're having a debate without rules and without subject and without even any actual objectives; so really you're just talking loudly to hear your own voices.

>>53970399
It also assumes that the victor doesn't destroy the loser, or that the war itself isn't a crippling blow that devastates the loser's ability to replenish losses.

>>53970430
How do you think settings and systems are made, retard? We're working with broad strokes and archetypes here, that people can tweak as they care to.

>>53970371
>Humans would not only outnumber elves in any given conflict
That's not really a given. Humans and Elves could have the same population, it's just that the age brackets will be different; most elves would be adults with very small amounts of the young and elderly; humans would have a larger amount of young and elderly, since a larger percentage of a human's lifespan is spent in maturation. Lower fecundity is not a barrier for a lower population when the fertility period is centuries longer than their comparable peers.

>>53966719
In most fantasy settings humans vastly outnumber elves.

It doesn't matter if you have thousands of warrior that don't need sleep when the enemy have millions that do need

>>53968529

Pushing further east would have been the dumbest thing that the Germans could do. Spot the armchair general who doest understand logistics.

>>53970476
in most human settings humans are also hopelessly divided trying to kill and conquer each other.

>>53970484
While you're right, they could also have dug in and sat right on top of the Soviet Union's breadbasket and population centers if the Soviets were unable to muster a counteroffensive. Having a larger population doesn't matter if most of them live where the enemy is currently occupying.

>>53968598

Except that's how Russia wins everytime. The further you go in, the longer your supply lines become, more men has to be diverted to feed the frontline. Meanwhile, Russian lines get shorter and faster. Besides that, the Germans lost most of its veteran forces during the fiest year pf the invasion due pure attrition that they could not replace.

>>53970467
No, you aren't.
You can't agree on anything; all the debate and "progress" you think you're making is not only imaginary, you're the ONLY one who's imagining it.
If you've made some progress, answer these questions for me and then get the majority of other anons to agree with your answers.

Elves
>Population size, population growth, physical resources, median age, age of maturity, physical capabilities in comparison to human average and human exceptional, food production and techniques, technological limitations and capabilities, magic (of any) limitations and magical mechanics, basic religious tenants, system of government, terrain of conflict, order of battle, military order and recruitment

Answer at LEAST ten of these and get everyone here to agree on those ten and you have progress.

German's conscripted army wiped out the British entirely volunteer Army during WW1 to the point that they too had to adopted conscription to replace it

>>53970536
see >>53970511
Germany didn't have to go farther in in World War I because they were in the de facto winning position, occupying almost all of Belgium and the most important parts of France. That's why they could hunker down and just farm kills up until it was clear that the Americans were coming and supplies were running out.

Germany didn't have to go further in; if the Soviet Union fled behind the urals but didn't have the American munitions, steel and trucks to push outside, Germany has still won because it now de facto controls much of the western Soviet Union. You don't win when the enemy stops advancing, you win when the enemy has retreated away from your borders.

>>53970413
I think most dragons see human attacks like bullfighting or something like that. That would also explain those settings where dragons are high intelligent, strong, tough, high magical beeings and are still killed by little squishy things. pure sportsmanship. hybris would die down after the sixed or sevened dead lizard. There might even be some divination channels broadcasting the whole thing for other dragons to watch

>>53970511
You cant dug in Russia. It doesnt work. There's far too much open field to cover with few geographical defenses. If you do it, they will bypass you and surround you or smash you with thousands of artillery shells without caring about precission (because it doesnt matter much in such open fields).

>>53970469
high live expectancy would need a low birthrate to have a rough constant. so while it might not matter in the first generations, it would matter soon after the second or third. If humanity wasn't subjugatet and either completely controlled or driven to a constant state close to extinction, war would be a loosing game for the elves in the long term.

>>53970587
Germany's conscripted army wiped out the British STANDING army. Kitchener's Army was largely volunteer as well.

It also helps that Britain's standing army was fucking tiny compared to both the French and German armies; the BEF raised 250,000 men and 200,000 reservists (the rest were colonial troops) compared to Germany's 3,800,000 and France's 3,600,000 at the outset.

>>53966808
In a world where people with these abilities existed, we would never have castles.

>>53970639
>If you do it, they will bypass you and surround you or smash you with thousands of artillery shells without caring about precission (because it doesnt matter much in such open fields).
Except that Zhukov explicitly stated they had neither the trucks, munitions or steel to do so without Lend-Lease. Which goes back to the original point, that the Soveits could not have "surrounded" or "smashed" shit without lend-lease aid.

>>53970670

What is diplomacy? Not a good idea to bad-mouth allies. Zhuckov is overrated anyway. Rokassovsky on the other hand.

>>53970571
Literally "it varies by setting, and we're considering the variables."

However, in general:
>elves have a somewhat smaller population size than humans (due to low cultural value on procreation, long gestation cycle, etc)
>elven physical resources are as plentiful as human resources, though they are more oriented toward magical than industrial manufacture
>median age is higher than human (actual natural lifespan isn't that important, but the median elf is middle aged for an elf where the median human is a young adult)
>age of maturity is later than the human age of maturity but less than proportionate to their extended longevity
>average elf has dark vision, better flexibility/dexterity/agility than the average human, are less resistant to poison and disease (this is a more contentious point based on setting), have more acute senses overall and are less hardy than the average human
>peak elf has godlike spatial reasoning, and is more agile with potentially better upper body strength but worse strength and endurance overall than peak human
>no technological limitations (except being unable to touch iron in some settings), but unlikely to use many technologies that are redundant with magic
>magic similar to humans, but a higher percentage have both the natural proclivity and time to study magic
>religion varies too much by setting
>system of government varies too much even WITHIN settings, by nation
>many terrains, all possible have to be considered; being more suited for guerilla warfare, putting them on the defencive, it must be assumed that most war with a predominately elven half will be in their homeland, usually in forests, or else infiltrating human cities
>"order of battle, military order and recruitment" are literally the things we're hashing out

>>53970653
While this is true, you also have to note that since the massive, massive majority of the Elven population are biologically adults, the proportion of humans of fighting age would be significantly smaller than the proportion of elves of fighting age.

As such, a war between an equal number of elves and humans would have elves start with both qualitative and (slight) quantitative superiority, which usually translates to significantly less losses. It'd be a lot of wars before the rate of attrition caught up to the Elven advantage in population percentage fighting age.

>>53970590

The moment they went into the attrition game they lost. It's vietually impossible for Germany to win the war that spans for multiple years. At most, they could have established a defensive line in Poland and bring the Soviets to the table of negotiations. Then their economy would have imploded in a few years because Nazi vampiric economy depended on continous expansion and land-grabbing

>>53970700
>What is diplomacy? Not a good idea to bad-mouth allies.
The statement was made in 1963. Literally 1 year after the cuban missile crisis. Zhukov had nothing to lose if he chose to badmouth the United States.

Amateurs love to talk about muh elite armies and superior tactics. What wins wars is logistics.

>>53970766
>The moment they went into the attrition game they lost.
As said before, Germany occupied most of the Soviet Union's population centers and its bread basket in the Ukraine. Unless the Soviets had the power to take back those centers, attrition would not favor them.

Of course, this assumes that Hitler was not a raging maniac and the Germans weren't obsessed with pushing deeper and deeper. But this was all theoreticals the moment we assumed the Russians would not be receiving any lend-lease aid from the US (as well as from Britain, which also made a huge difference in 1941)

>>53970795
See >>53969375
You can't win wars without winning battles. Logistics just makes sure that you keep winning those battles.

>>53967656
>walk into forest
>pick up branch for firewood
>branch is elves
>drop branch, turn around
>trees are elves
>ground is elves
>you are elves
>no escape

>>53970814

This not an a risk game. All of this territory is open field. Defending it forces the Germans to split up its forces over far too much territory. German units also were prone to run out of fuel.

>>53970852

How many batyles did the Americans lose in Vietnam? You can win every battle and still lose the war.

>>53970750
>the proportion of humans of fighting age would be significantly smaller than the proportion of elves of fighting age.
Ackshually the only thing preventing the use of child soldiers is morality. They are actually perfectly effective soldiers in every regard apart from carrying 90 pound backpacks to simplify supply lines, and in fact the lack of cultural indoctrination means it is both easier to turn children to violence and that factors like gender are almost null.

Wikipedia, I know, but as always it's a great jumping off point to read up on the subject.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_use_of_children

>>53970907
Vietnam was not a war won by logistics either, but by morale, see >>53969582, so this doesn't strengthen your argument that logistics wins wars either.

>>53970865
>no john mcmanmeat, you are the elves
>and then john was fay

>>53970868
>>53970868
>This not an a risk game.
I should say the same to you. Russia is not a blank, evenly divided slate of resources; most of its agricultural production and most of its population is in the west. Even if the industry is moved east, the USSR cannot magically bounce back and create more units than were available in Siberia if it does not take back western Russia.
>All of this territory is open field.
>Defending it forces the Germans to split up its forces over far too much territory.
And who would be attacking it if the Soviets did not have the steel to build tanks or the trucks to carry their artillery (or, in the case of the Katyushas, literally be their artillery)?
>German units also were prone to run out of fuel.
In Barbarossa, yes. Because they were advancing so fucking fast at that point.

>>53970750
>since the massive, massive majority of the Elven population are biologically adults, the proportion of humans of fighting age would be significantly smaller than the proportion of elves of fighting age.
true, but only relevant if there were no big difference in total population. as a fast(er) breeding race, humans would usually outnumber elves.
also, while a shorter maturing period in elves would even things out a little in the beginning, i still don't think they could keep up their losses since a limited birthrate lowers the percentage of fresh soldiers. unless they would only send people into war if they have children, since otherwise not every dead soldier will have children to close the gap. and thus, humans would slowly wear them down. this is of course only true in a state of constant total warfare and a lack of elves having unbelievable high magical capacities compared to humans, because then the answer would always be lolmagic wins.

>>53970912
While this is true, you are also actively removing the same people that will be producing the next generation of adults before they have any chance to procreate. It would make more sense to press-gang old people to be soldiers, since they cannot increase the population any further.

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>>53968656
Here's your cultured elf.

>>53971031
I mean, it's mostly an academic matter because religious or moral hangups will probably prevent a large percentage of the armed forces from being children, but in a perfect militaristic human society without any moral hangups whatsoever, children can also begin procreating around 12, eugenics (selective breeding, sending the lesser children out as cannon fodder) will probably be employed ensuring that the highest percentile of potential soldiers are instead breeding stock to bring the lower percentiles up and women (and girls) can be made to pump out about 1.2 children a year almost indefinitely.

Of course, perfectly amoral elves in a setting with firearms but without WMDs are probably just going to surround a city with a small number of snipers and mages and eradicate them starting with the most powerful humans from a distance, so it really goes both ways, and neither side is likely to be that way. Still a factor worth considering, though.

>>53971016
>true, but only relevant if there were no big difference in total population. as a fast(er) breeding race, humans would usually outnumber elves.
But humans don't usually outnumber elves, because their mortality rate is also higher than the Elven mortality rate.
>i still don't think they could keep up their losses since a limited birthrate lowers the percentage of fresh soldiers.
Sure, but this assumes that the population loss from war are roughly equal to each other. Given that elves are (slightly) better soldiers and that they outnumber humans initially, the losses are going to be disproportionately on the side of humans, who are also killed before they breed.

Assuming humans are ready to accept taking massively disproportionate losses for several decades of wars, yes, they will eventually, after a century or so, start to wear down elves. But most dynasties and kingdoms fall or change rulers not long after a full century of war, so it's really a matter of how long the human kingdom can grit its teeth and keep fucking.

https://youtu.be/5JxQhxOJa5U

https://youtu.be/zGTyrQaif_4

https://youtu.be/K5Cgy6oiVY4

https://youtu.be/nU8VcEw3Zno

>>53970983

Clearly it is for you given how easy is to build new factories and exploit reaources midwar according to you.

>>53971031
depends again on the birthrate. since not every able man and woman CAN fight on the frontlines since then everyone would starve in mere weeks, someone will churn out kids. and that game would be covered by humans. so without a force multiplyer like "haha,doomsdaymagic, your whole army is now snakes and on fire", or "none of your weapons can hurt me" slow breeding races would die out. then again, since communication is doable as is interbreeding (in most settings) it is more likely that elvish race and culture would be gradually assimilated until the race is extinct

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>>53966781
>I think the most you can stretch it is sleeping eight hours a day in intermittent 15 minute naps
Actually the more you split up your sleep, the less total sleep you need. See the last image where you survive on just 6 20-minute naps a day.
The big drawback is that missing even one of those naps fucks you up HARD. Forcing a fantasy military to adopt a polyphasic sleep cycle would give them more walking hours, but clever elves would use it against them, creating numerous small, loud diversions tp disrupt the naps.

>>53971180
And clearly it is for you given how you think a counteroffensive can be fought without agricultural support, artillery, tanks or munitions by merely large numbers of men.

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How did the Romans won if Hannibal was clearly the superior commander?

>>53971184
>and that game would be covered by humans. so without a force multiplyer like "haha,doomsdaymagic, your whole army is now snakes and on fire", or "none of your weapons can hurt me" slow breeding races would die out.
Only if the short-lived race can sustain several decades of losing wars without losing the will to fight or succumbing to other races.

>>53971136
>But humans don't usually outnumber elves, because their mortality rate is also higher than the Elven mortality rate.
They do during wartime, when the government tends to encourage rapid procreation and frugal spending (plus a greater focus on industry, medicine, etc), and both sides are potentially dying at approximately the same rate (assuming elves still die if a vital organ is ruptured or they lose about the same amount of blood that would kill a human and aren't like muh special snowflake orcs that can lose several times their own body mass in blood and regenerate vital organs provided they eat enough living flesh fast enough). Over the course of multiple wars or especially lengthy wars this discrepancy becomes more relevant, as both sides suffer losses but humans, as long as they are not entirely eradicated, can come back much faster than elves can (and thus become no easier to eradicate, where elven forces will).

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>>53971222
Scipio was clearly the superior commander?

>>53971236
>and both sides are potentially dying at approximately the same rate
No, they aren't, because Elves are better soldiers and significantly outnumber them in the initial war. Humans are dying significantly faster, assuming the same starting population. The fact that each soldier is also a potential father and humans need to reproduce twice every 20 years to maintain their population, humans are going to be hit significantly harder at first, and for much longer.

>>53971210

All that industry was behind the Urals. Also, it is a myth that the Soviets was some kind of huma horde. In fact, the Germans and allies outnumbered at the beginning of the war. It is not until the final years that there's a clear superiority on part of the Soviets. The same is true for Americans and British.

>>53971136
>But humans don't usually outnumber elves
That is totally up to the setting. And in an equal population setting, races with a higher adult rate need massively more ressources to keep this populaion running, compared to a race with higher fertility and less adults. so war would fuck them over more economically. Again, this could only be remedied with lolmagic

>>53971251

Propaganda. The Romans simoly could replace their forces fasters than Carthago hire more mercenaries.

>>53971292
>All that industry was behind the Urals.
It wasn't, according to Zhukov, until the Americans delivered the munitions, trucks and steel for that industry to use.
>Also, it is a myth that the Soviets was some kind of huma horde. In fact, the Germans and allies outnumbered at the beginning of the war. It is not until the final years that there's a clear superiority on part of the Soviets. The same is true for Americans and British.
I never said they were in real life, but they would have been according to Zhukov if they did not have the steel, artillery and charges from the USA..

https://warontherocks.com/2016/07/was-the-russian-military-a-steamroller-from-world-war-ii-to-today/

>>53971307
It wouldn't have mattered if the Carthagians made every Battle a Cannae. But they didn't.

>>53971230
>Only if the short-lived race can sustain several decades of losing wars without losing the will to fight or succumbing to other races.
facing extinction if you loose does that to people. And anny other setting then all out war would end in peacetimes and assimilation, and again, the fast breeding race would win that one too

One thing is for sure, the Americans land forces couldnt have beaten the Germans without the Soviets. The force was simply insufficient.

>>53971300
>And in an equal population setting, races with a higher adult rate need massively more ressources to keep this populaion running
This is true. But in an equal population setting, races with a higher adult rate have more individuals to produce the resources necessary to keep said population running, because they have fewer elderly and children who cannot operate at their full potential. A larger adult population also translates to a larger number of farmers, hunters, artisans and smiths.
>so war would fuck them over more economically.
War would fuck over a short-lived population more. If the short lived population contributed the same number of soldiers as a long-lived population, the short-lived population would have more children and elderly who cannot adequately keep the economy going, while the long-lived population would have more adults who can operate and full capacity.

>>53971335

It seems to me that Grit is what wins wars.

>>53971391
I think statistically, countries with languages with some level of latin influence have won more wars, so I think Latin is what wins wars.