Primarchs

>>53965618
Russ. Has no reason to be a cunt. Is a cunt anyway. Only gets away with said cuntyness due to having brothers who are justified cunts. At the end of the day they were all cunts to some degree barring the Khan, Sanguinius and Vulkan. Russ was just my least favorite flavor of cunt and Dorn conversely so. It's not even the wolf part that gets me, it's the viking part which gets played out with shallow iconography and themes, kind of like a bunch of frat boys playing dress up. The only fluff I like about the cunt is when he stops pretending to be drunk at his legion feast and tells the wolves he has shit to do and he must leave.

>>53965618
Mortarion is far and away the worst Primarch, in every way. He's not only a dick, he's a fuck up and a hypocrite. He only became Chaos because he sucked Horus' dick too hard even though he hated Chaos.

>>53965618
The Khan. Other then being at the seige of terra there is nothing notable about the khan or scars

>>53965618
Angron

>>53965951
Doesn't that mean he's the best by default?

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>>53965618
>Inb4 some bitch nigger says Lorgar

All he wanted was the truth, and he is the truth.

>>53965618
Mortarian. The Primarchs are basically extensions of their Legions, and the Death Guard have very little outside being Nurgle marines. So until he goes traitor he has to sit around without a unique personality or motivation. And even once he's a demon prince he has nothing to differenciate himself from the wider range of Chaos. He's a piece of background fluff masquerading as a character.

>>53965886
Tasty pasta/10

>>53965997
Erebus and Kor Phaeron are the one to blame anyway.

>>53965618
Objectively Lorgar.

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>Chaos is truth
>Not C'tan

You sound like a gay.

>>53966133
Meant to reply to >>53965997

Can we at least agree that Fulgrim is one of the better Primarchs, top 5 easily. He didn't do anything wrong and the only reason he fell to chaos was because he came across a chaos artifact which he had no comprehension of at the time.

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>>53966133
No you're a gay

>>53965618
Curze is pretty crap, he was basically renegade even before the Heresy, cut off from the Crusade except for occasional resupply and terrorising already-loyal planets

Also he had terrible hair

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>>53965618
Easily Fulgrim; anyone who would kill their own husbando (who also happens to be Best Primarch™) is scum of the earth.

>>53966176
Neck thyself, anon.

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>>53966238
>Ferrus Manus being cute

Absolutely rancid and a disgrace to Best Primarch.

>>53966238
You literally can not name one fault in pre-heresy Fulgrim

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>>53966176
Preheresy I'd agree, or at least very high (I'd reckon him 6th, personally, though there's at least 1 in my top 5 I know a fair number of people would dispute), but during the heresy he did go mad and lose control of his legion for a while, try and kill Perturabo, and abandon the important bits of the Siege of Terra in favour of buttfucking civilians to death

>>53966312
How did I forget "and killed his bff, who Horus wanted him to get on-side"

>>53965618
Perturabo is merely autistic while Lorgar is also incompetent.

>>53965618
Curze.

If not Curze, then >>53965915


You can sorta see how Perturabo might've gone loyalist instead if he'd had a little more attention paid to him but I honestly don't have a clue wtf Mortarion's problem is.

>>53966291
His colour scheme

>>53966291
Exactly. That's what makes him the worst primarch:

>>53965915
I thought Mortarion went Chaos because his ship got trapped in the Warp or something.

>>53966291
But heresy happened.

Im still fairly new to 40k, been getting heavy into the horus heresy and loving it. It seems like all or the majority of the primarchs have a real world historical analogue i.e. guilliman is like alexander the great and khan is like ghengis, what other primarch/history comparisons do you see?

>>53966723
That in combination with the fact he was more loyal to Horus than to the Emperor.

>>53966752
Personally I see Guilliman as more like Julius Caesar than Alexander since he's the jack of all trades, being just as good a politician as a general. Also he is from space Rome and the ultramarines are space romans.

There is however one interesting character in the lore who bares a resemblance to Alexander the Great which is Macharius. He was essentially a normal human who conquered a lot of planets and only stopped because his troops wouldn't go any further.

>best Primarchs

The ones that got lucky with good writers in the HH series

>worst Primarchs

The ones that got writers that made them man children with daddy issues and spent more time bickering with their brothers than they did waging war

>>53966752
Sangiunius is Jesus.

>>53966857
interesting take... thinking about it maybe rowboat is more of an augustus, his ward was unJUSTly rekt and he takes it upon himself to try to pick up the pieces of broken fucked up empire and try to forge some growth and peace

>>53966904
>Augustus
Augustus was Caesers heir and protégée but his comparison to Guilliman would make more sense. The emperor on the golden throne is similar to the idea of March and Guilliman is the one fixing and stabilizing stuff.

The only reason ferris manus has not been said to be the worst primarch more is because everyone forgot he existed.

>>53966827

>he was more loyal to Horus than to the Emperor

This was pretty much it with Perturabo and Mortarion. It wasn't so much they fell to Chaos overnight as much as they just trusted their brother more than their distant father who clearly favoured other Primarchs more. At some point in the Heresy there was just a point where they had gone too far and ended up going full Chaos.

>>53965915

Mortarion being a hypocrite was always intentional to push that dramatic irony. He pushes so hard to learn how to defend himself and his legion from sorcery that he is unconsciously forced to unlock that hidden potential within himself. Mortarion is fully aware that he had become what he despised the most, and knew that there was no turning back at that point.

>>53965618
>why is it Perturabo?
That's a weird way to write Mortarion.

>>53966365
>Lorgar just took longer to come into his own then the other primarchs. And then when he did he tore down the Imperium and played the Warp like a goddamn fiddle.

Curze or Morty. I'm a big death guard fan but Morty is basically a brooding, shiny trophy Nurgle likes to look at sometimes. Typhus is much better than him in all regards save for being a primarch.

>mfw I really like Perturabo and Mortarion
>mfw this thread

I understand why people would dislike them though. They're not particularly fleshed out compared to some Primarchs and their personalities are the generic "cold and brooding" archtype.

I've always liked them because they're a great example of the real flaw with the Emperor's plan with the Primarchs. The Emperor wanted tools, but through fate and the whim of Chaos he got sons.

So of course the Primarchs who get the gruelling shit work and get little praise relative to others get disgruntled and vulnerable despite being literal demigods.

I never really like the HH series because it sort of trivialised this issue and made it seem like some Primarchs were just being portrayed as whiny babies when in reality they were seriously used and abused by the Emperor. When reading the 3rd edition lore, I always liked just imagining how brutal it must have been to have a Primarch like Perturabo, Mortarion, or Curze pushed to that point that they would betray the Emperor... but now that we know, it's fucking stupid.

>>53967162
Yeah Ferrus Manus was basically the same way but also knew what the fuck was up.

>"Rest? We were not made to rest; we go on, unflinching, unstoppable, unending in our strength. The Emperor did not make us for such mortal concerns as hearth and home, vanity or contemplation; we are his engines of war, his hammers, beating out the fabric of existence into a vessel fit for Mankind to inhabit."

>>53967162
You think that's bad, picture being a Guilliman fan.

Horus.
Even though the Heresy's named after him, he's so inconsequential to the plot that he falls because someone else just shot him up with enough Chaos to make him fall.
Weak-willed as shit.

>>53967293
but didnt lorgar and his fuckboy word bearers legion put the chaos ball in play?

>>53967293

Abaddon please.

>>53966133
>C'tan
>Truth
>Truth got fucked by metal skeletons

>>53967293
I agree with the sentiment that Horus is the worst Primarch as a character, however I think the problem is the reverse of what you said.

Horus is central to the plot. Loyalty to Horus is a motivating factor for most of the traitors. The problem is they use him more as a plot device than as a character. He never gets to actually do anything consequential for his own reasons. Instead his big moments are used to make other characters more important.

>>53967154
Morty's also an excellent soldier (damaged and brooding as he was, he was still arguably Horus's top general), but pretty much - he was loyal to Horus so he rebelled, while the chaosification of himself and his legion wasn't really anything to do with him

>>53967211
Manus was a great primarch pre-heresy, easily top 5 or very close, it's just that he dies on the eve of the main event (which is a largely ignored tragedy, but there you go) and thus has to sit out all the stories.
Easily one of the best primarchs at actually being a primarch though

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Here's power levels, not quality levels

>>53965618
Magnus is the only objective answer

>>53967154

Same. Death Guard player who has no liking for his primarch.

I'm a big fan of Perty. He's one of the primarchs that's most easy to identify with.

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>>53965618
But it was that red fuck Magnus.
At least Perty's IW were one of the best conquerors of the crusade.

>worst primarchs
III
XIX
Lorgar
Magnus

the rest were at least acceptably competent, even complete washouts like angron and kurze

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Sanguinius, his legion was flawed to begin with, he already knew what would happen due to visions and he still let it happen.

>>53966891
I thought he was the Angel, Gabriel.

>>53969083
Underrated answer great points

After Dark Imperium gave more characterization on Mortarion, he's objectively the worst primarch in all respects.

Curze and Angron were liabilities: Emps should have put them down immediately, as they contributed nothing--- but had nowhere to go.

Lorgar and Magnus were shits. They were well meaning, but loved themselves way the fuck too much even when it was messing up people they were supposed to be on the same side of.

Perturabo got dealt a bad hand. Hard pressed in war, he just ended up following his CO.

Mortarion's the worst because he could have had an identity: Being an enforcer of purity, single minded and relentless. Like a more spiritual Ferrus. But instead, he fucking becomes an evil wizard, which he hates up through M42! He can't even use a chaos Skype-call without despising 'foul magic', despite being a fucking demon prince practicioner.

His first captain, Typhus, laughs in his face, calls him a fool and says (rightly) that Nurgle likes him more and that Mortarion is a trophy. Greater demons just mope around with him, as he sulks and is repeatedly shown to be a complete loser, both in life and daemonhood.

Truly, Mortarion is the worst.

>>53969607
wait, dont take me seriously, i was just shitposting

Shitposting or not I just finished fear to tread and while maybe not the worst I could see what you say being points against him

>>53969771
what did my little hawk boy do now ?

>>53969794
Just the fact that he knew what he knew as you say and still kept it a secret from the rank and file astartes... pride comes before the fall but that seems to be a pretty heavy theme in this setting

Russ and Magnus gets the tie for me even as a TS fag.

Russ is just an asshole and as more people defend him it ironically becomes worse and worse for it.

Magnus is just way too fucking weak willed. He gets verbally bitch slapped by everyone.

>>53969872
well, that is correct, but maybe he knew/thought that telling them would have been even worse and he had to carry this burden alone, not being able to tell anybody ?

Of course this is just a what if scenario, either your are correct and he was less noble that we thought, or i am right and he was even more space jesus than we already thought he was.....

>>53969687
When your shit post goes too far anon

>>53970105
I will learn from this mistake. I wont ever shitpost against my Husbando again

>>53970164
It's not shitposting if you raise a good point.

Because too many tubes and no peripherical vision.

>>53970192
fuck, you are right, i am so bat at shitposting that i accidentally managed to make a valid point

It seems i managed to roll critical failure while shitposting

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>>53970260
>tfw no clue how to shitpost
>tfw only know how to make decent points
>tfw too smart to shitpost

>>53967006
Ferrus Manus was a top-tier Primarch. He was a brilliant warrior-general who did his job without doubt or hesitation and had no illusions about his purpose.
See >>53967211
He was everything the Emperor could hope a Primarch to be (except alive, of course)

>>53970320
is that a compliment ? Thanks i guess....

Anyway, i dont think that there is such a thing as a " worst primarch ". Sure, some were definitely worse that others, but most of them had excuses for being bad and thoose who had no excuse dont need an excuse because they arent bad at all, like Sanguinius and Vulkan

>>53969646
Can you tell me more about Mortarians character in Dark Imperium?

> God-tier

Horus Pre-Heresy
Sanguinius
Jaghatai

> Good-tier

Fulgrim Pre-Heresy
Ferrus Manus
Corax
Vulkan

> Okay but kind of a cunt-tier

Fulgrim
Horus
Rogal Dorn
Leman Pledge
Lionel Johnson

> Worse versions of their brothers-tier

Perturabo
Konrad Curze
Angron

> Shit-tier

Mortarion
Alpharius/Omegon
Lorgar

> The one person whose fault it is that the 40k setting is fucked up-tier

Magnus

>>53969646
Nah, I'd still say Pert is worse, he's so mopey, and unlike, say, Ferrus, he doesn't exercise enough will or determination to be the commander he should be - he's one of the top generals in the crusade, he could refuse to garisson shit with his legion if he so chose

>>53970420
He gets a chapter which starts with the guy aboard his flagship's inner sanctum, which is all now warp-corrupted of course. He's playing with the soul of his alien father, who he spent 1000 years hunting down right after the Heresy. He talks to it, gloats about how he's going to try a NEW poison, and basically acts like a little weirdo.

Then he gets a warp conference call with Ku'gath and Typhus, which is basically a bunch of chaos fungus spreads, and forms mushroom holograms of them. He gets a 'chill at disgusting warp sorcery', which he hates (still) and doesn't see the irony of him being a warp sorceror daemon.

Typhus mocks him on the call, and says Mortarion is an idiot. Mortarion goes 'No, this is brilliant! I slowly attack Ultramar, very slowly, so that Guilliman can bring out all his forces. Then, I destroy them all at once! You'll see how good this plan is, and Nurgle will approve'.

Typhus laughs in his face at how (obviously) fucking stupid it is to give Guilliman of all people, huge time to prepare. He refuses to help out. When Mortartion calls him out, Typhus tells the daemon primarch to fuck off, and that Typhus is the true chosen of Nurgle, having been the one to turn the Death Guard, not Mortarion. And that Mortarion is a trophy of Typhus and Nurgle's victory, and is too pathetic and weak to really serve chaos. Typhus cuts the call, after deciding to fuck off and not throw good money after this shitty plan.

Mortarion sulks, and Ku'gath shrugs and basically goes 'Yeah, we're both failures'. The Mortarion turns off the call, goes to punch his dad, and grumbles about how he'll show everyone he can beat Guilliman.

Basically, expect Mortarion to be fucking humiliated in the next arc.

>>53970527
In Perturabos defense, he was a space schizophrenic who constantly had visions the eye of terror, space hell, watching him. Seriously, that's a big part of his character and a important reason why he did what he did.

>>53970676
Wow. Typhus really sounds like a dick and Mortarions life sounds like it really sucks.

>>53966067
why? He's objectively the most successful. He's not only the only primarch to get what he wanted out of the heresy, he also managed to accomplish his original goal of getting emps deified.

>>53969957
That's definitely viable I was just thinking why not give your guys a heads up about this flaw and try to collectively come up with some protocols or defenses but then again another theme we see in this universe is that knowledge is power both for good and bad things

>>53969083
Nigga knew what happens when you ignore or fight prophecies. Dont blame him for doing the best with what he had.

>>53969957
if i remember theres a bit where one of the primarchs asks him specifically about why he didn't tell emps about the red thirst and his visions. His response was along the lines of "i don't want daddy killing my sons like he did the lost primarchs and their legions"

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>>53965618
>Tfw Pert and the Iron Warriors virus bombed the Space Muslim Home-planet, and proceeds to land with tons of armored vehicles to lay siege to it
>Tfw he still loses to a bunch of bombed out Muslims jury-rigging tanks together, even after getting Horus to send support
>Tfw the IW is the flat worst and most useless Legion, and Pert is the worst and most useless Primarch

>>53971169
How will the Iron Warriors ever recover?

>>53970676

Man, now I just feel bad for Mortarion. Guilliman re enters the stage and is so influential he revitalizes the Imperium. Magnus re enters and he fucks up the Fenris system.

Mortarion finally returns and he's getting mouthed off by his former first captain and is already getting set up to get fucked up by Guilliman.

>>53970725
Fuck, i want Death Guard to win now just to spite Mortarion.

>>53965618
Perturabo is based. Worst are:

Khan
"I'm so mongol"

Mortarion
Fucking scythe, jesus...

Russ
Vikings and furfag wolves

>>53969083
I have been reading the HH novels and I have gotten through some but not all... So far Sanguinius is the only non retarded primarch.

>>53971384

>dissing on Jaghatai

You are alone here, friendo.

>>53971396
Khan is pretty based. His books are some of the best BL stuff.

>>53971396
Where are you at? Just started angel exterminatus yesterday. it's why I started the thread, perty a dickhole

>>53965886
Fpbp

>>53966967
who would be Mark Anthony?

>>53965618
>Magnus
>Two eyes
Absolutely disgusting.

>>53971503
The lion?

>>53970509
Excuse me anon, you forgot to put Alpharius/Omegon at the bottom in the "We're literally so ambiguous that nothing we do actually has relevance in any way at any time, we are less than even a plot device, merely Handwavium Incarnate for shit writers to use as needed" tier.

>>53971433
Not him but khan is super uninteresting and probably can't read.

>>53971463
Just finished fear to tread. I am way behind so far

>>53971731
Did you read Scars and Path of Heaven? If not it isn't surprising you find him uninteresting considering he has appeared in zero other books. He's a cool dude.

>>53965618
>Not Russ
>Not Lorgar
>Not Dorne
>Not Mortarion
>Not Corax
Perturabo isn't even bottom 5 out of the 18

>>53965997
>he only wanted the truth
which is why he believed everyone every time they told him what it was.
>takes chaos on it's word
>>53966133
suck a massive D-cannon you metal faggot
Nigger's dumb

>>53965886
He said worse, not best primarch.

Did his fucking job unquestioningly without doubting his orders or angsting about his fate, like a Primarch is SUPPOSED to do.

When he has to go all out, he goes all out. He doesn't toy with his enemies, he doesn't needlessly waste his men, he doesn't underestimate the foe. If you're his target, he's gonna give his all to waste you.

He has a good sense of humor. That unfortunately got wasted on autists like Lion. Seriously, when you're having a brotherly fist fight over trivial matters, it's not too far fetched when one laughs at the idiocy of the situation.

The only primarchs better than him are Sanguinius and Vulkan, and that's because nobody is as bro tier as them.

>>53965991
Yes. Yes it does.

>>53965618
Rogal Dorn. I haven't read all of HH yet but so far he is the only one to actively and intentionally destroy the efforts of is own side. Not counting Alpharius, of course.

>>53971396
Guiliman is pretty good in Know No Fear

>>53972013
>doubting his orders or angsting about his fate
After Prospero (where he failed to capture or kill Magnus) he defies orders to return and defend Terra and locks himself in his room for days to pout. Then he gets absolutely btfo at Yarant by the Alpha Legion and his unconscious body has to be literally dragged to safety by Corax. Then his forces get fucked up again in the Alaxxes Nebula and this time he needs the Dark Angels to bail him out. Russ was a retarded incompetent.

>>53971503
Fulgrim
>Having rejected his living father the emperor, Fulgrim has coupled himself to the daemon Slaanesh, promising her dominion of all man! He worships dogs and reptiles. He blackens his eyes with soot like a prostitute. He dances and plays the sybils in vile neurotic rights!

>>53972571
I know fulgrim is a psycho too far gone in chaos but that music murder orgy scene in the books is awesome

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>>53972571
*swings arms*

>>53965618
>Not Russ
>Not Lorgar
>Not Angron
>Not Mortarion
Pert is one of the few good ones.

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>>53970509
>Leman Pledge

>>53971276
Mortarion has a really shit life - when Malcador met him (and showed him part of the webway project to try and get him to chill a bit) he notes that he's up there with Curze and Angron for being damaged in mind and body.

And there's being betrayed by your first captain, finding out you 10000% picked the wrong side, getting exploded by Grey Knights using your True Name...

Mort's basically a big punching bag

Oh well, at least he gets to be Plague to Guilliman's Justinian

Also Perturabo : Hammer of Olympia is an enjoyable read, he's just a poor maniac that got fucked by shit orders and the fact he's too autistic to truly understand humans.

I always thought Angron got a pretty raw deal in the grand scheme of things

>>53972271
He is good but is a little sociopath. Not as much as Lion for example but a little.

>>53973197
Sure, but he also should have just been put down the second the Emperor realized he couldn't remove the Nails without killing him.

>>53972984
Mortarion should never have surrendered to nurgle, when typhus infected the legion mortarion should have executed him and suicided the death guard. Giving in to nurgle was a massive moment of weakness.

>>53973164
Come to think of it, Perturabo sounds kind of like the Emperor. He's of a higher status and therefore doesn't comprehend the emotions of those beneath him, ordinary humans, even though others such as Guilliman and Malcador do. Perturabo also has a very literal view of things, pointing out to an eccentric Fulgrim that they were simply born in a lab and not the sons of a God which is probably how the Emperor would view and talk about things as well.

>>53973309
Out of all of the primarchs I always feel the most sympathy for perturabo, he was really great and got screwed over so much

What function did even Lion El'Jonson serve?
Besides falling to chaos I mean.
Seems pointless..

>>53973206
That's mostly called 'Leadership' in Guilliman's case. Being an expert politician and organizing humanity requires a lot of understanding, and what comes to manipulation. So he was a good general, but mostly liked to spend his time making planets awesome which would always be useful.

Horus's problem was that he DIDN'T do this, and thought having a fucking administrator show up meant daddy didn't love him and would someday be tired of toy soldiers.

>>53972293
It's amazing how low the standard for victory is for chaosfags

>>53973309
Yeah, there's a bit of that in Hammer of Olympia, his foster sister tells him something like "You build perfect cities and societies, but the perfect human that will inhabits them doesn't exist."

>>53973412
The Lion was apparently an awesome leader and general, being good at everything. He's ranked 3rd in number of planets conquered, and generally did a good job of it, with Ultramarines and Lunar Wolves beating that out.

It's mentioned that only the Lion, Guilliman, Horus, Dorn and Sanguinius were ever in the running for Warmaster.

>>53973412
Meat for the grinder probably

>>53971859
>Corax
>Bad
Elaborate.

>>53973494
>Dorn
>in the running for Warmaster
Yeah, no.

>>53973494
>It's mentioned that only the Lion, Guilliman, Horus, Dorn and Sanguinius were ever in the running for Warmaster.
We don't know who was in the running. The Emperor picked Horus. All those other names are just rampant speculation.

>>53973513
>does the Primarch equivalent of slitting his wrists in the bathtub and quotes edgy emo poetry as his last words

>>53965618
Angron is clearly the worst primarch. I mean holy fuck, the Emperor did a lot of shit wrong with that lot, but not killing Angron like, immediatley proves he was a defective retard.

Nope. The contenders to the position would be Horus and Lorgar. Horus for being duped so hard, to be literally possessed. Abby was right about him. You rely to much on the 4 freaks you got screwed.
Lorgar? With all that talk about knowing the truth and merging humanity with the warp, making everyone living in a symbiotic relationship with daemons... he did fucking nothing, his Word Bearers' a bunch of punching bags. Abaddon being just a space marine with some chaotic boost managed to do more than a daemon primarch. And unlike Mortarion, who never was an active chaos believer or anything, Lorgar have no fucking excuse.

Clearly Lorgar

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>all this shit taste

>>53968664
>Lorgar not in top at least

Wasn't he confirmed to be near Magnus in psychic power? In The first heretic?

Alpharius

>hurr durr no I'm alpharius
>better listen to these xenos

>>53973940
>Rowboat Girlyman
>Not the blandest primarch

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>>53974135
>actually came back
>kicked ass all the way to terra
>has his father's mighty sword
>made advanced space marines
>leading the Imperium to glory
>writing a second book on governing so the civilians of the Imperium don't have it as bad.

>>53966752
-Sanguinius is Saint Gabriel had he had fallen in battle against satan
-Dorn is some High Marshall from the Hospitalers
-Russ is viking werewolf fanfiction
-Alpharius is the freaking USs intelligence
-Horus is satan (omg it´s super obvious: god´s favorite son, lider of the fallen angels, tried to fuck up heaven, battled his husbando gabriel.. the list goes on and on)
-Curze is batman
-I think the Lion is related to Oscar Wilde fluff
-Corax is Jeronimo
-Dunno about Mortarion, but I don´t hate him unlike those hipsters
-Vulkan is GWs appeal to the black community, there were no black´s civilization near the fire belt's volcanoes so I don´t think there´s some real world inspiration
-Angron is that angry guy that led the 2nd slave revolt in ancient Rome

>>53973466
>implying only Chaosfags can recognize how shitty Russ is

>>53974282
>Vulkan is GWs appeal to the black community
Fuck off you 1d4chan memester. Vulkan and the Salamanders have never been portrayed as African. They're just literally black.

>>53974282
>I think the Lion is related to Oscar Wilde fluff

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lionel_Johnson

You idiot.

>>53974282

This post gave me cancer

So all the Primarchs and their legions had a gimmick right?

Russ is wolves and drinking.
Angron was angry
Khan was bikes
Dorn and Perturabo was defense and siege
Salamanders like flame
etc etc etc

What was Horus and the Luna Wolves's gimmick?

>>53967154
>I'm a big death guard fan but Morty is basically a brooding, shiny trophy Nurgle likes to look at sometimes. Typhus is much better than him in all regards save for being a primarch.
It's funny because Typhus actually calls him a trophy to his face in Dark Imperium and then says that Mortarion isn't shit, he was the one who recruited the Death Guard then did all the work. After that he tells Mortarion to summarily piss off and wanders off to do his own thing.

Mortarion is worst Primarch.

>>53974451
Gangs.

>>53970833
Lorgar wanted Horus to win and that didn't happen. Then he sat on his ass for 10,000 years because he's a lazy retard.

>>53965618

Worst Primarch as in what? Bad person? Least developed character? Worst motives? Are you asking for quality of character, or action?

Worst character development wise:
The character with least development has to be the Khan. In both 30k and 40k, the White Scars are some of the least played factions, and there is very little literature on them or the Khan himself. I read Hunt for Voldorius, and the Khan was so damn generic. Its also a terrible read btw, so mediocre.
Alpharius Omegon is also underdeveloped, but that's more out of intention. In Legion, dude was a mega cool guy. I'd prefer there be little info on them.
Ultimately, GW has botched the White Scars and I honestly do think he is the worst Primarch because of this. We don't know enough about him.

Worst primarch because of character:
Toss up between Angron and Russ. Both blindly charged, regardless of right or wrong. For Angron, its understandable, but Russ was so amazingly mindless. Didn't really exact personal reflexivity or enacted his own agency on the grand scheme of things. He even gloried in his legion's role as mindless executioners. His wants and desires were so boring. Perty had a desire to prove himself due to the mistreatment of his peers at least. Russ did stuff because he was told to.

Worst character because of their own action (and therefore best and most interesting characters):
Horus and Fulgrim. Both had so much good in them, which was ultimately corrupted by those they trusted. When they realised what they had become, it was too late - they had betrayed those that they had loved. I'd think Fulgrim takes the case for being more tragic, because he tried to clone his beloved brother so many times, and so many times he failed.

tl;dr GW fucked up the Khan, Russ is worst primarch, Fulgrim is best primarch

>>53973197
He had my sympathy right up until he decided he would fuck over his own sons with the exact same raw deal for no reason.

>>53974706
>he decided he would fuck over his own sons
To be fair he never liked his legion or considered them his sons. He hated the Emperor and thus despised his "gift". Angron never made a secret of it either.

>>53968664
why does Sanguinus look like somebody hit 'skew' on his face in photoshop?

>>53973778
Horus himself stated that it would have been Sangy if not him.

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All primarchs are beautiful.

>>53966563

checkmate, you queermoes

>>53974959
>Horus himself stated that it would have been Sangy if not him.
Horus stated it "should" have been Sanguinius instead of him. That's meaningless though, because like I said nobody knew what the Emperor was thinking. Nobody saw his shortlist.

>>53974972
i honestly cant tell who most of them are, i wish the artist made this a front facing pic

>>53975142
L-R: Dorn, Curze, Fulgrim, Ferrus, Vulkan, Sanguinius, Horus, Lion, Corax, Alpharius/Omegon, Mortarion, Russ, Magnus, Angron, Khan, Perturabo, Lorgar, Guillichad

>>53974972
>>53975231
It would be better if Perturabo had diagonal hazard stripe pattern boxers.

>>53974804
He still decided to fuck them over just as he was for no reason.

>>53966238
God dammit anon because of you pic I am sad now.

Angron is the only primarch that failed to conquer his world and would have been killed if not for the Emperor.
Clearly the worst primarch.

At the end of the outcast dead a left over thunder warrior successfully steals gene-seed, why include this subplot? Are they going to do anything with that little plot thread or was that just for shits and gigs?

>>53975401
being oppressed as a slave and being labotamised with litterally no help from anyone and having to work your way to the top from les than nothing will do that. gullimen, the lion, mortarian, they were adopted in, angron was discarded by everyone and given nothing but a damaged brain. he could still murder the fuck out of every primarch in a one on one fight because murder is all he knows, hate him for being one track minded, like he for the circumstances that brought him their

>>53975555
quads confirms my post,

>>53975555
>I am literally suffering every moment from the nails and I just want a way out of the misery.
>BETTER FORCE THEM ON ALL MY MEN

>>53973778
That was from other Primarchs speculating on who could be Warmaster. If your name wasn't on that list, you had nothing particular to make you a legitimate choice
>Horus
Emps' favourite and oldest son, downside is he's a meathead who isn't actually that smart
>Lion
Probably the best general, downside is he's a complete fucking turboautist
>Guilliman
Best administrator, best balance of military and political abilities, downside is probably only that he isn't as brilliant a general as some others and he has his own little ant farm to run
>Dorn
Primarchs aren't very clever so they forgot who Dorn was. Alternatively, GW was supposed to write some good achievements for Dorn but they forgot.
>Sanguinius
The most virtuous and thus the most trustworthy making him a good unifier, he's a beast in personal combat which justifies his choice a bit but his downside is his average military leadership

The rest are too dumb or too crazy. Lion was honestly too crazy as well, he just kept it to himself.

>>53974451
Barbarians? Bikies? They had topknots and recruited from gangs.

>>53974451
Daddy issues

>>53975555
Yeah no. He had it no worse than Konrad or Mortarion. And he was not the best in personal combat.

>>53975615
>sanguinius
>beast in combat
Russ, Angron, Horus, Magnus and fulgrim would kick the shit out of him, he is not even in the top 5

>>53975555
The only thing Angron had to deal with that was unique was the Red Nails and they were catastrophic. If they were enough to handicap him they were enough to necessitate his euthanasia.

If Corax was on Angron's world, he would have led a successful slave revolt and taken over the planet.
Lion was completely and utterly alone through his entire childhood in a living chaos jungle full of monsters. When he was "adopted" he was already an adult, his mind was already shaped, he just had the flexibility to embrace civilisation.
Mortarian was poisoned constantly and psychologically abused by a creature almost as powerful as a primarch and he still managed a successful revolution.

Angron is easily, easily the worst Primarch. Is it all his fault? Probably not, but he was a gigantic hypocrite who repeated every terrible thing he ever complained about. He could only ever justify it as 'might makes right', but then that justifies his mistreatment.
Without the Nails, Angron is a dog. With the Nails he's a broken dog.

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>>53966752
This

>>53975142
>>53975231
Wrong

From left to right:

-Leman Russ
-Curze
-Fulgrim
-Ferrus Manus
-Vulkan
-Sanguinius
-Horus
-Lion El Jonson
-Corax
-Alpharius/Omegon
-Mortarion
-Angron
-Magnus
-Perturabo
-Khan
-Dorn
-Lorgar
-Guilliman

>>53975655
ADB basically retconned it in Betrayer that the Highriders of Nuceria were top-tier techologically and far more powerful than the other peeps the Primarchs had to fight, except maybe Corax.

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>>53965997
The thing is, the Emperor has a different perspective from almost any other being (maybe he shared some common ground with the old ones but it's too late to swap notes now so lets move on)

The Emperor genuinely didn't think of the Chaos powers as gods, just as very powerful primordial interdimensional beings.

Lorgar wanted something to believe in so badly, wanted a god, a perfect answer, one who could do no wrong, an ultimate power he wanted it so badly he turned to the chaos gods.

In the Emperor's perspective there were no gods, just very powerful beings.
In Lorgar's perspective there was no difference between a very powerful being and a god. He thought that beings as powerful as the chaos powers were gods by definition.

>>53966176
>t. Fulgrim
get back, vile centipede

>>53975681
Russ is a mediocre fighter. Lion, Vulkan, Corax and Curze are all better at personal combat than him.
You can say Magnus was distracted, but at the end of the day Russ beat him so I'd say their abilities were comparable.
Fulgrim was said to be one of the most deadly primarchs.
Horus was thought of by enough of the others as being the single most physically dangerous primarch.
Sanguinius was in the top 5, he was probably No. 2 or 3, depending if Angron was actually a good fighter or just had tard strength.

>>53965886
fuck off Magnus, Khan was a faggot.

>>53966752
A lot of tyhem don't have pure historical parallels.

Leman Russ is Romulus/Remus and a bit of Fenrir from Norse mythology

Guilliman is Augustus

Angron is Sparatacus

Jaghatai Khan is the most obvious

Sanguinius is Jesus

Some argue that Lorgar is Constantine and Ferrus Manus Crassus

>>53975681
It's all but confirmed that Sanguinius is the 2nd most powerful primarch after Horus, maybe stronger. The issue was he never went 100%

>>53974451
Originally it was a sort of a weird blend of hunting lodges, wolves, and street gangs

>>53975764
This is so fucking cringe it's cancerous

>>53975991
I know, right? I mean, clearly Trump is Dorn.

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Was it autism?

>>53976005
trump isn't worthy to even be considered.
Without his fathers money he'd be a used car salesman.

I wonder if its possible to have a discussion about the reason for a primarch existing WITHOUT actual discussion of the primarch.

Why was Magnus created? Seriously why create a giant monstrous psychic power house like Magnus? We know that Emps went out of his way to create the Thousand Sons as a psychic legion with their earlier recruitment. But why risk all this?

The webway project is the obvious answer however that doesnt seem to check out. Emps didnt recruit or seem to use Magnus for this purpose. If Magnus was supposed to be used for this then he should have been trained for it at as soon as he was found. Why let your most needed tool jump head first into the warp if you know your going to need it later? For all we know the Throne might not have been as deadly to those who sat in it if it wasnt holding the webway gate closed so were not even sure if Magnus was needed there. I dont think this holds water.

So why a psychic Primarch? Why a psychic legion?

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>>53966133
>We exist because they allow it.
>We will end because they Demand it.

lol jk they're just pokemons guys! they get kept by all the wacky metal skeletons, who have kooky personalities and sometimes blow up planets on a goof!

>>53976146
We sorta know this already.
Magnus was supposed to sit on the Golden Throne instead of Emps.
Can't remember, but I think someone would need to sit on it even to use the Webway, not just for the Astronomicon.

>>53976099
According to 4chan, it's always autism.

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>>53975861
>Russ is a mediocre fighter

>>53976314
>Magnus was supposed to sit on the Golden Throne instead of Emps.
I covered that in my post mang.

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>>53967162
Agreed. I dunno, in modern context it's important to remember that the Iron Warrior's specialty was essentially "Fight WW1 in Space" and "Counter-Insurgency".
When they weren't taking horrible casualties in the most grueling, monotonous form of combat imaginable, they were keeping newly conquered worlds in line while badly undermanned and under supplied. It's no wonder they wound up being a bunch of creeps with no loyalty to anyone but themselves.
I also always liked the fluff about how they're still fairly coherent as a Legion, even though they're all twisted, and that they cut off mutant limbs and replace them with cybernetics.

>>53976372
>loyal to themselves
Uhh... the 4th legion had the biggest split between those loyal to the Emperor and those to Horus

>>53976431
Ah but you see, that was all planned by Perturabo. The fracturing of the legion happened with the intent of weeding out the weak and purging the unworthy scions of Perturabo.

>>53966176
> betrayed Best Primarch
fuk u
fuk ur mama
fuk ur daddy
fuk ur trans am

>>53972117
what the fuck are you talking about? Are you fucking retarded? Dorn Turned the Imperial palace into a fucking invincible fortress.

>>53966270
Fuk u 2 fagit

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>>53965618
Russ is the worst. Just remember all those times that Russ acts like a retarded barbarian he is only pretending.

>Getting in a shit fight with the Lion because he's a better commander than Russ.
Only pretending to be a barbarian.

>Ignoring the Emperors orders in Favour or Horus's.
Only pretending to be a barbarian.

>Suiciding half his legion 1v5 against Horus and having to be saved by Corax who only has like 2,000 marines left
Only pretending to be a barbarian.

Just imagine if Russ didnt pretend to be a retar... I mean a barbarian perhaps the loyalist might have stood a chance defending Terra.

>>53973412
>falling to chaos
You memers never change.

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>>53970350
Mah nigga.

Pic related to haters

>>53976938
t. transexual son

>>53976938
Russ was one of, if not the most reliable Primarch you retareded retard

>>53977498
>>Russ was one of, if not the most reliable Primarch you retareded retard
>Ignores the Emperors ban or psykers
>Ignores the Emperors orders during Prospero
>Ignores the orders of Malcador to suicide into Horus
What did he mean by this?

>>53977552
1. The emperor trusted Russ. Thats why Rune Priests were allowed
B. Malcador was against Russ planning to board the Vengeful Spirit but the Emps told him to STFU and that Russ was one of the few Primarchs who would never betray him
3. Rune priests get their power from Fenris not the warp like those transexual son faggots

>>53977673
>Thats why Rune Priests were allowed
Lol. Yeah cause thats why the rune preist had to lie to Malcador and his agents to get on Terra. Because they were allowed. But ok maybe theres some lore that you can source that backs up this claim. You stated it pretty strongly so you must have source right?

>few Primarchs who would never betray him
So hes loyal but wont follow orders. Real reliable fellow though.

>Rune priests get their power from Fenris not the warp like those transexual son faggots
>Rune priests get their power from Fenris not the warp
>not the warp
XD. Please enlighten us to the realm in which SW psykers get power from if it isnt the warp?

>>53977744
Uh... bro not him but do you even read the fluff? You might want to know what you are talking about before writting a wall of text that no one will read

>>53977819
>but do you even read the fluff?
Yes. But good '''''argument'''''.

>>53977819
Furfags not even once.

>>53969933
In defense of Magnus, he's the most "Odd out" of the Primarchs, being a giant mutant nerd chucked in with a bunch of frat boys. He's loyal up until he sends the Emperor a message saying "Hey pops, shit's going down" and then suddenly that fag Russ shows up and starts being a teamkilling fucktard.

>>53977744
Keep up with the times gramps

>>53977847
>>53977901
>>53977910
samefag or magnus internet defense force?

>>53977918
Thank you for addressing the contents of my post! And for the impressive amount of supporting information for you views!

>that one Khan fanboy posting again and again in autistic rage

I know it's just you.

>>53977953
t. Australian shitposter

>>53973197
>>53973800
Angron gets a pass due to the Nails though. Also, Angron the only one that has a decent reason to be mad at the Emperor.

>>53977953
Wrath of Magnus shows Russ was right all along, Fenris has a world spirit and it really does supply the Space Wolves with power. It also hates Chaos and fights back against the taint Magnus and his boys try to bring to the planet.

Russ did nothing wrong.

>>53978006
>>53977918
>>53977486
This is the defense of Russfags against arguments. Fitting followers for the worst Primarch.

>>53978020
Wrong sweetie. Mortarion is actually the only one with a good reason to be mad at the emperor, whinny faggot though he is he saw thru the emperors imperial "truth"

>>53978045
Based Russposter

>>53978045
>Russ was right all along
About what? Seriously are you qualifying something here?

>Fenris has a world spirit and it really does supply the Space Wolves with power.
Excellent so the Space Wolves are sorcerers now. I thought seeking power from warp entities was WORSE then being a psyker but Wolves gotta Wolf I guess.

>Russ did nothing wrong.
Yarant? You'd think even SW would be annoyed about that one.

>>53977673
>the Emps told him to STFU and that Russ was one of the few Primarchs who would never betray him

I mean, he kinda fucked up with half of them, so that doesn't prove a thing.

>>53977940
Nah I just started reading the thread a minute ago. but it doesn't really make sense to call out Magnus as being bad, since he's demonstrably more loyal than a bunch of the others and gets shafted by the Emperor and Russ, and still doesn't use his god-level power to BTFO him but fucks off. Hell, he still doesn't bother the rest of the Imperium, just fucks with the Wolves.

>>53978096
>About what? Seriously are you qualifying something here?
About his Rune Priests being different from Magnus' witches (who literally kept daemons as pets).

>Excellent so the Space Wolves are sorcerers now. I thought seeking power from warp entities was WORSE then being a psyker but Wolves gotta Wolf I guess.
SW channel natural forces from their homeworld that hate Chaos, TS literally bargain with daemons because what could possibly go wrong? Surely these are equivalent.

>Yarant? You'd think even SW would be annoyed about that one.
Vis-a-vis Magnus, you autist.

>>53978057
lolwut

Angron's mad because the Emperor lets all his bros get slaughtered for nothing. Pretty justifiable.

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>>53978150
>Magnus
>Literally beaten by normal Marines on three separate occasions as an even more powerful Daemon Prince
>"god-level"

>"Doesn't bother the rest of the Imperium."
Pic related.

>>53978204
That was kinda my point though, Magnus doesn't use his full power because he's not a dick.

Re: pic - desu I'm not fully up on the latest 8th fluff, but isn't that fight a result of Gulliman coming to help out the Yiffs?

>>53978170
>About his Rune Priests being different from Magnus' witches
So you demonize the Sons for consorting with warp entities but when the Space Wolves do it its fine? This isnt even defending the Sons here but justify the different reactions to the same thing. Because

>Surely these are equivalent.
Yes they are as they're both sorcery.

>SW channel natural forces from their homeworld
Through the warp.

>Vis-a-vis Magnus, you autist.
Wait am I thinking of the wrong SW defeat. I meant the one where Corax finds and saves a comatose Russ after him and most of his legion get rekt trying to 1v1 Horus.

>>53978231
All three of those times were him losing to regular Space Wolves, without a Primarch or full Legion to back them up.

That fight is Magnus attacking Guilliman on the moon. He tried to follow him to Terra through the Webway to kill the Emperor but no dice, so he decided to just settle for killing his brother instead. No SW involved.

>>53978276
>So you demonize the Sons for consorting with warp entities but when the Space Wolves do it its fine? This isnt even defending the Sons here but justify the different reactions to the same thing
Easy. One of those spirits is a natural part of a planet and is wild but essentially benevolent, whereas the other is literally a cosmic force of pure dickery. One desires to turn all reality into a demented playground of mutation and madness, the other just wants to chill at home.

>>53973799
.....That was Curze, dumbass.
I know they're both the 'stealth' guys, and both start with 'c', but for fuck's sake, there's only 18+1 of them, it's not that hard to keep them straight.

>>53970676
>>53970725
Typhus was always the driving force of the Nurgle warping of the DG
Frankly how BL have handled Morty is a joke

Easily could have gone
>Morty loves purity/clear purpose, trusts his sons to do the same and usually delegates
>hates warp fuckery
>Delegates to Typhus a few too many times
>Typhus forces Morty to constantly compromise on purity due to leading him into bad situations
>When all the DG apart from him have turned to Nurgle he starts culling them (hurr durr Reaper)
>The collective is too strong and Morty finally embraces Despair once he learns that Horus, his bff, wanted him them all the turn and his favoutire son instigated it
> Once he does he becomes a hateful shell of who he once was "Just send me into battle i don't care anymore" - he turns into the demon cus Nurgle approves of such despair
You could even have people call him the "Hollow Ange/Sonl" because he's basically just a rotting shell of crusade era Morty

>>53968121
It's one of those really unfortunate side-effects of the direction they've taken the Heresy lore.
I mean, yes, I have no problem with the decision to portray it as uber-dramatic stories of flawed demi-gods bringing the dreams of a better galaxy crashing down because of their own failings.
But the specific way that it's been done creates, well, basically the exact opposite of what existed before.
Previously, the God-Emperor was just a macguffin, a Force for Good that got betrayed by Horus, an incredibly active Force for Evil.
Now, it's just reversed. The Emperor made bad decision after bad decision, causing everything to happen; meanwhile, Horus has no fucking role in the plot whatsoever, he might as well be a glowing statue kept on an altar somewhere, for everyone else to visit and soliloquy to.

>>53974687
Ok but hunt for voldorius has Kor'sarro Khan the captain, not Jaghatai Khan the Primarch

>>53978330
>Our sorcery is different to your sorcery because reasons
>Our pskers are different to your psykers because resaons
When did the Wolves become such Mary Sues?

>>53978330
>>One of those spirits is a natural part of a planet
>The Warp
>Natural
Hmmm.

SUMMER
SUMMER
SUMMER TIME

>>53978204
Well against Guilliman at least there are 2 arguments you can make:

A.) Magnus still isn't at full power because of his shards

B.) Sisters of Silence were there to limit his powers

C.) he was winning until the eldar sucked him back into the webway

>>53978057
Lorgar and Angron have pretty legitimate reasons.

Curze I dont' blame, he was broken and could see the future

Magnus was just being a retard who forced himself into a corner

Fulgrim was mindfucked by a daemon

Horus, Perturabo, and Alpharius turned for dumb reasons though

>>53978403
Nevermore.

>>53978231
New fluff is an action movie of the old fluff, so Magnus now wants to wreck the Imperium for reasons instead of work on gaining all knowledge and trolling the Wolves.
GW want to sell 40K primarch models so fluff's getting a bit...different.

>>53978330
Regardless of where their magic came from the Space Wolves still violated the Edict of Nikea. It was a ban on all Astartes pysker use throughout the legions, not just Warp sorcery. Rune Priests use psychic powers, are referred to as psykers by third person narrators, and call themselves psykers in the fluff. They even know they are breaking the rules because they have to lie to Malcador who was acting regent at the time, so they hadn't been granted any special authority by the throne.

Magnus did everything wrong but the Space Wolves, as a legion, were just as guilty as the Thousand Sons.

>>53979061
Trying to reason with SW players is impossible, it's always been like that.
They're mentally incapable of understanding that their faction is designed to be hypocritical, ignorant barbarians armed with the self-belief and institutional power of moral righteousness.
You can literally list off all the caps lock obvious ways they're designed to be like that and they just go nuh-uh we're different and its okay it's everyone else who's a little baby nerd loser.
It's something inherent in the design of the faction that attracts people incapable of empathy or self-analysis about their own flaws.

>>53979236
>that their faction is designed to be hypocritical, ignorant barbarians armed with the self-belief and institutional power of moral righteousness
There's no way to prove that they were designed to be anything but cool Spess Vikings with a wolf fetish. Don't make claims you cannot support.

The Space Wolves are my least favorite legion but don't be retarded.

>>53979256
Turn your brain on for goodness' sake.

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>>53973469

>>53979220
>Magnus did everything wrong but the Space Wolves, as a legion, were just as guilty as the Thousand Sons.
10,000 years of practicing Rune Priests later, the Space Wolves have yet to sprout tentacles and pledge their souls to the Dark Gods. Unlike, you know, the Sons did the moment they seriously faced the threat of extinction. Logan Grimmar wasn't begging Chaos to save his Chapter when all hope looked gone.

That's called loyalty.

The Khan kept getting his kills taken away. Fulgrim mouthed off to him on Ullanor and the Khan told him exactly what would happen if they fought and was prepared to back it up.

‘You would lose because you would treat it like a game, like you treat everything, and I would not. You would lose because you know nothing of me, and I know everything of you because you shout it from the turrets of your battle cruisers. My prowess remains unknown. You have some reputation as a swordsman, brother, but I make no boast when I tell you I would leave you choking on it.’

He also very nearly killed Mortarian but Morty teleported out before the final blows could be struck.

The Khan does not fuck around.

>>53979322
Not that guy but what you just said didnt address his point at all. All you basically said was SW are loyal because they're loyal so they did nothing wrong.

Them doing the exact same thing is ok to you because of DM fiat?

>>53979322
>10,000 years of practicing Rune Priests later, the Space Wolves have yet to sprout tentacles and pledge their souls to the Dark Gods.
The flesh change was due to an issue with their geneseed. It was around before Magnus. The Wolves have their share of mutations. (see the wulfen)

You're missing the point. THE THOUSAND SONS DON'T MATTER. The Space Wolves broke the law independently of them. Their legion was just as deserving of censure under the law but they just kept to themselves. The Thousand Sons would also have gotten away with it if Magnus hadn't koolaidmanned the Throne Room.

The Wolves are blatant hypocrites. You can argue whether the Sons were worse until you're blue in the face but that doesn't prove the Wolves were innocent.

>>53979236
Trying to reason with TS players is impossible. It's always been like that.
They're mentally incapable of understanding that their faction is designed to be arrogant, disloyal, cowardly blowhards dressing up their own self-obsession and quest for power in the rhetoric of enlightenment. You can literally list off all the ways their Primarch is shit-tier and their current state entirely their fault, but they just go nun-uh it's ok to swear their souls to the service of evil because their shiny glass pyramids got smashed.
It's something inherent in the design of the faction that attracts people who relate being persecuted for being unnecessarily creepy and arrogant bastards.

>>53978506
Eh, Mortarion's got a fairly decent tragedy, having become the thing he most hates - the fact that his legion was, on the whole, very loyal to him (he's basically Jesus on Barbarus) makes it sting all the more, as does the way that he, toughest of the traitors (and possibly overall) gets taken over by the most painful god, and his phenomenal endurance only makes it all that more painful.

Despite the memeing I'd say he, Angron and Magnus all have decent tragic arcs, unlike Horus and Fulgrim who both basically fall to "lol daemon weapon".
Curze and Perturabo are somewhere in the middle to me, in that they do both have fair reasons for falling, but these are mostly eclipsed by their terrible actions, and they pretty much constantly compound on their problems with everything they choose to do.

>>53966133
Why is there a table hanging from the ceiling?

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>>53965951
God damnit, I wish I could argue against this but you're right.

>>53974687
This has been fixed a little bit. Two of the absolute best HH books are Scars and The Path of Heaven, both of which tell the story of the White Scars and the Khan as the Loyalist and Traitors try to recruit them. It tells how Horus sent them way out in the middle of nowhere because he didn't no which way the Khan would go for sure, which is why the White Scars weren't in much of the early Heresy.

The best part is, they don't make the Scars into Mary Sue Marines. They are awesome but they get fucked over a lot. They make the antagonist marines look pretty awesome too, while also showing all of their faults. Damned good books man, damned good.

>>53979380
>You're missing the point. THE THOUSAND SONS DON'T MATTER. The Space Wolves broke the law independently of them. Their legion was just as deserving of censure under the law but they just kept to themselves.
Literally everyone broke that law, including the Khan, Sanguinius, the Lion, and of course Guilliman when he overrode the thing entirely post-Heresy. The difference is that, yes, they were loyal and didn't poke around with daemons.

>The Wolves are blatant hypocrites.
Except the rational they gave was entirely true.

>>53968121
It's going to stay that way until they get into the Siege of Terra. Up until then, all Horus pretty much did was do a lot of talking, trying to consolidate his power and recruit as many of his brothers and allies as he could. He doesn't really get his warface on until the end.

>>53979441
>WERE NOT HYPOCRITES BECAUSE EVERYONE ELSE DID IT TOO
Jesus man this is inane. Stop redirecting the blame to everyone else. Whats so harmful about saying the barbarian bigoted vikings acted like judgmental hypocritical savages? Its absolutely fine for the SW to says 'Its fine because we did it' but to actually believe that is just... wat.

>>53971169
Tallarn was a clusterfuck tho

>>53966133
What's the source for this?

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>>53965951
>Take one of the greatest conquerors in the history of the world, who took scatted clans of savage nomads and toppled the most advanced civilizations of his era
>Put him in space with motorcycles and super warriors
>Still can't make it interesting

Goddammit GW

>>53979441
>Literally everyone broke that law, including the Khan, Sanguinius, the Lion, and of course Guilliman when he overrode the thing entirely post-Heresy. The difference is that, yes, they were loyal and didn't poke around with daemons.
You keep on making the same fallacy that somehow other people being guilty doesn't make the Wolves guilty. Those other legions only disobeyed the Edict (still unlawfully and legally deserving of censure) AFTER the Heresy broke out and they felt the need to fight daemons. The Wolves disobeyed it from day one.

>Except the rational they gave was entirely true.
Whether it is true or not is irrelevant. They punished others for breaking a law that they themselves broke. Leman, just like Magnus, thought he knew better than the Emperor. For all we know he Emperor didn't care where The Space Wolves got their power. He didn't trust psykers. It doesn't matter if Rune Priests psykers are powered by Fenris, the Emperor said NO ASTARTES PSYKER. Period. He didn't just say no sorcery, or no Warp fuckery HE SAID NO ASTARTES PSYKERS.

>>53979504
Seriously whats not to like about Khan? Apart from 40ks horrendous bike models

Before the whole BL and 30K retcons the HH was over pretty quickly so being at the siege was pretty important. If I remember correctly Khan retaking the landing bays was critical to holding Terra. Besides he's basically the 'scout' primarch left to do his own thing which he was highly successful at. He never needed help or supervision yet at the end there he was holding the wall against chaos.

Khan is one of the most bro-teir and successful Primarchs from any measure imo so I dont follow.

>>53979504
The Khan is one of the most rational and least retarded Primarchs during the Heresy. The alienation of the White Scars from the Imperium due to their self-imposed independence is super interesting. Jaghatai actually cared about who was in the right instead of blindly declaring for one side or the other. Have you read the BL White Scars books because if not you should stop memeing about things you're entirely ignorant about. Fuck off.

>>53979548
>BL

I know what it stands for but every time I see that acronym I think "boy love"
Makes black library threads really weird

>>53965886

Literally everything Russ did during the heresy was justifiable.

>>53979628
TAKE THE BAIT

Russ is a braindead, violent mary sue and the worst primarch by a mile
Space yiffs are hypocritical shitters
Autistically shrieking about TS many, many fuckups does not diminish this
What is it about wolves as an animal that makes them universal autist bait?

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Beep beep best legion coming through

>>53966176

Fulgrim is the best Primarch because he's by far the most entertaining

>villain-sue
>plays the other Primarchs like a fiddle and completely ignores Horus 80% of the time with zero consequences
>is the only Primarch who LITERALLY got everything he wanted out of the Heresy. Fulgrim is the only traitor Primarch besides maybe Magnis who never even one time expressed any actual emotional investment in defeating the Imperium. All he wanted was to become one with Slaanesh and he got it
>is bishounen as fuck

Truly the best Primarch

>>53970350

That's bullshit though.

The HH rulebooks make it explicitly clear that Ferrus is almost uniquely responsible for the drop-site massacre. He's an emotional fuckboi who got played.

>>53979653
It's the "dude vikings in space that's so epic and wolves are badass too" that attracts kiddos.

The Thousand Sons are also the worst. They attract autists who think they're smarter than everyone.

TS/SW are two sides of a shit coin.

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>>53979707
relevant

>>53979721
Thats so damn try hard it hurts to look at. Delete.

>>53972293

>he defies orders to return and defend Terra and locks himself in his room for days to pout

The text explicitly says that the Fleet was in a holding pattern because it for mauled so badly at Prosper that there was a slew of repairs that need to be made

>Being SO deep on Magnus' cock that you have to actually lie to try to justify your autistic hatred of a fictional character

>>53979699
>The HH rulebooks make it explicitly clear that Ferrus is almost uniquely responsible for the drop-site massacre.
That's total bullshit. Book 2 does nothing but praise his strategy and deployment during the assault. The attack was going according to plan until the four backup legions betrayed them. There was litterally no way Isstvan V would have gone any other way.

>He's an emotional fuckboi who got played.
Yeah, he overextended his legion's position because he was fucking pissed. The traitors would still have been completely crushed if the reinforcements had actually been reinforcements and not turncoats.

The ones who can be blamed for the Dropsite Massacre are the traitors. None of the loyalists could have done anything to avoid it.

>>53979745
>The text explicitly says that the Fleet was in a holding pattern because it for mauled so badly at Prosper that there was a slew of repairs that need to be made
Not what I'm referring to. When they are engaged with the Alpha Legion fleet Russ gets depressed and hides in his room. He makes comments about how pointless everything is. His men are totally confused and directionless until some of them manage to talk him out of it.

>Being SO deep on Magnus' cock that you have to actually lie to try to justify your autistic hatred of a fictional character
Fuck Magnus too.

>>53979707
>Its an anon simplifies things he doesnt like down in the stupidest way possible so that he can feel superior episode
Bet youre a IW-fag.

>>53979785

>Not what I'm referring to. When they are engaged with the Alpha Legion fleet Russ gets depressed and hides in his room. He makes comments about how pointless everything is. His men are totally confused and directionless until some of them manage to talk him out of it.

If he's engaged in a fucking fight with enemy forces who are actively doing everything they can to prevent him from leaving the system then that's hardly "defying orders"

>>53979809
Even after he gets rescued from the Alpha Legion he chooses to keep fighting instead of obeying persistent orders to return to Terra.

>>53979751

>That's total bullshit. Book 2 does nothing but praise his strategy and deployment during the assault.

Wrong. Book 2 explicitly points out that before the fight even started both Vulkan and Corax advocated to wait in orbit and continue to scout out the planet while waiting for the rest of the legions to arrive. It then says that Ferrus was so pissed that he told then to both fuck off and so they went along with his plan soas to not piss him off further.

It's Ferry's fault they got fucked by the betrayal as hard as they did. If they had waited for the rest of the legions to arrive then the betrayal would have likely happened in space (or if it still happened on the ground at the very least they wouldn't have been sandwiched between both groups of traitors), which is a much more favorable position to be in.

>>53965618
It's Lorgar.

>>53965618
Mortarion and Russ are the worst.

Mortarion is a retard hypocrite. Russ is just deeply unlikeable.

>>53979861
>If they had waited for the rest of the legions to arrive then the betrayal would have likely happened in space (or if it still happened on the ground at the very least they wouldn't have been sandwiched between both groups of traitors), which is a much more favorable position to be in.
The traitors would still have positioned themselves in a way that was most beneficial before striking. The loyalists had absolutely no clue.

He did make mistakes but I don't think the Dropsite Massacre is a fair judge of Ferrus's character. He was normally pragmatic and rational in his approach to war but he had just been betrayed by his closest friend. He was emotionally in tatters.

>all this defence of team yiff in poorly-spelt gibberish.
now look, i use sw rules for both 30&40k but not for one moment would i ever argue russ isn't a titanic asshole, and a hypocritical one to boot, in addition to his legion being made up of dumbass savages who turn werewolf at the drop of a scooby snack.
russ is hands down the worst loyalist primarch.

From the Emperors perspective its would have to be between Lorgar, Angron, Curze and Magnus. All of these guys were bad at being Primarchs for one reason or another.

The Emps wanted generals that would conquer the galaxy. Not a preacher or a scholar. Angron was a slave on his homeworld so perhaps he's the most disappointing initially but both him and Curze were at least good and conquering.

Horus was he's favourite for a reason. Horus was a winner and a conqueor the same as the Emperor was.

>>53977673
>3. Rune priests get their power from Fenris not the warp like those transexual son faggots

All psykers and sorcerers in 40K get their powers from the Warp. No exceptions.

The spirits of Fenris are just minor Warp entities. The Ruinous Powers aren't the ONLY things in the Warp, just the biggest things.

>>53979995
>Horus was he's favourite for a reason. Horus was a winner and a conqueor the same as the Emperor was.
This makes me imagine the censure speech Emps gave to Lorgar
>You're not a winner Lorgar, you're a loser
>I've got no time for losers
>I want Primarchs who are winners, like me
>Be like Horus- he's a winner, like me
>Plus Roboute said you're a faggot, are you gonna let him talk to you like that?
>Now watch this drive

>>53975142
>Fulgrim is naked and proudly thrusting his probably-erect dick forward for all to see

yes please

Lorgar.

What a fucking retarded piece of Mormon Jehova Witness Evangelical shit.

Serious question, though - why did Emps think that pulling Angron off of his homeworld was a good idea? It only lead to more suffering.

Really, I think, the Horus Heresy was a big example of the Emperor getting what he deserved.

>>53980447
I believe that the Emperor despised Angron for become crippled. Its the only explanation.
As for why keep him around? Because even a retarded Primarch can be useful. And Angron was useful during the Great Crusade.
From the Emperor perspective even if Angron or Curze got too out of hand tho others/Horus was there to deal with them. Legitimately if Horus had stayed loyal everything would have worked out in the long run.

>>53965618
Bro-tier primarchs
>Sangy
>Fulgrim
>Vulkan
>Ferrus

Cucked by the gods tier
>primarchs who where dealt a poor hand
>Angron (literally set up to fail)
>Magnus (made a series of the worst decisions for the right reasons)
>Lorgar (only wanted the truth. Would have 100% supported Big E if he was wrong)
>Peturabo (Poorly characterised and inconsistant. Plus Horus might have broken him)
>Horus (via Erebus)

Unremarkable tier
>Kharn
>Corax
>Alpherius?

Useful tier
>Mort
>Lion
>Dorn

Trash
>rowboat
>curze

>>53979441
The only other advocate of the ban who broke it was Mortarian. Leman Russ is on the same tier as that idiot who smells like shit and is notable these days only for getting his ass handed to him and then getting wrekt by his own first captain.

>>53980447
>why did Emps think that pulling Angron off of his homeworld was a good idea? It only lead to more suffering
He didn't know about the nails at that point or that they couldn't be removed. It would have been fine but the Emperor fucked up by leaving all of Angron's friends to die instead of scooping them up too. Jaghatai and Ferrus had their mortal warrior bros made into Astartes. There's no reason Angron couldn't have had friends too. That might have settled him down. (No, there's nothing in the fluff about Angron's gladiators being Khorne worshippers. That's headcanon fanfic)

>>53975764
That pic will always make me laugh

>>53965997
Lorgar didn't want the truth.

He wanted a god-figure to worship, to be the bitch of, to surrender all responsibility to.

Instead, he got the Emperor, who expected him to promote the Imperial Truth which said no worship, and also expected him to take fucking responsibility that's what he was made to do.

So instead he got down on his knees and sucked that Chaos cock.

>>53980665
>Ferrus
I meant to type Russ but that works too. The Emperor really should have put Angron down when he discovered the Nails were terminal though.

>>53970509
>t. furfag

>>53980673
>Instead, he got the Emperor, who expected him to promote the Imperial Truth which said no worship
The Emperor allowed the Mechanicum to worship him as a god and proselytize their faith. Did Mars get burned to the ground in response? The Emperor was a hypocrite.

>>53980673
do you even read? Lorgar had no love for chaos. Not to begin with, this was a sentiment echoed by First Bro Argal Ta. They preach t hat the truth is horrible, repulsive and downright evil. But it IS the truth and cannot be denied and ignored. Big E's scheme to Fedora tip chaos either to death or below the problem threshold where both doomed to failure

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>>53973494
Dark Angels were second in victories, Ultras pacified more planets though.

>>53973778
It's implied that Dorn was in the running, but was made Praetorian of Terra instead because Horus was better at managing his brothers. Dorn and the Imperial Fists were basically his favourites while he was actively part of the Crusade.

>>53976146
No point training him until the project reaches a stage where Magnus needs to get started on it. While the Emperor is leading the Crusade, he won't have time to sit on Terra with Magnus and show him how things work. Instead, he retires from it after Ullanor, goes back, and starts setting things up.

If Horus hadn't fallen, he'd probably have sent for Magnus sooner or later. Ironically, that might have been why the Chaos Gods made their move when they did - if the Emperor had the time to ensconce Magnus on the Throne, that would free him to personally put paid to anything they tried, while as things turned out Emps was stuck on the Throne during most of the Heresy because of the webway war.

>>53978204

Out of interest, does Magnus actually have all his shards back together? Or is Daemon Primarch Magnus just part of his fractured mind/spirit/soul?

>>53980745
>Dark Angels were second in victories, Ultras pacified more planets though.
Which shows how pointless trying to compare victories and compliances. Planets and tasks aren't made equal. Let's take the Iron Warriors for example. They were purposely given the most grueling and entrenched opponents so it makes sense for them to have less compliances than say the Ultras. The Imperial Fists spent a great deal of time fortifying planets so it makes sense that they have less victories than the Sons of Horus. They all had their separate tasks and fields of specialty.

>>53980793
This gotta catch em all! retcon is the worst change so far added by Black Library. Prove me wrong.

>>53980812
Not denying that at all, just mentioning that the order of campaign victories basically went Luna Wolves --> Dark Angels --> Ultramarines (or whoever's in third, sometimes it's said to be Space Wolves). Ultramarines had the most worlds made Compliant, whether that's because they didn't encounter absurd resistance as much (e.g. Iron Warriors), or because they were better at diplomacy, or any other reason, isn't really given.

>>53980819
I still think it's an excuse to have a shard of Magnus be loyalist.

>>53979721
Perturabo could be in Paranoid, Dorn in masochistic.

>>53968664
Some of them are hard to place.

Vulkan, for example, never really gets a proper action scene, for example. He's stated to be the physically largest and strongest, and held back in sparring out of fear of hurting the others - but where is that proven? He literally knocks land raiders and tanks around with his hammer but you don't get to see his actual strength level. He's a perpetual, but you never see that utilised in battle until he's driven mad by Curze and his fighting effectiveness goes down.

Then there are inconsistent power levels.

Aparently Curze can take the Lion AND Guilliman two on one, but then the Lion beats him one on one later. Equally, Curze is shown to take both of them on, AND a shit load of Astartes, but then get his shit wrecked by an insane Vulkan who previously was fucked up by Curze repeatedly in the last book.

It makes my head hurt. Who's best with the sword? Isn't it meant to be the Lion? But no wait, it's Fulgrim. No, it's Jagahti. Everything is contradictory.

Goddamn

>>53974282
>that angry guy
Do you mean Spartacus

>>53980793
>Out of interest, does Magnus actually have all his shards back together?
No, going by either The Crimson King or the Ahriman novels he still hasn't been made whole.

>>53980864
>I still think it's an excuse to have a shard of Magnus be loyalist.
They could just have Magnus find all his shards and regain his personality. It's stated that before being shattered Magnus still loved the Emperor and was loyal to the Imperium even while Prospero burned. He was just an arrogant fool.

>>53979676
>is the only Primarch who LITERALLY got everything he wanted out of the Heresy. Fulgrim is the only traitor Primarch besides maybe Magnis who never even one time expressed any actual emotional investment in defeating the Imperium. All he wanted was to become one with Slaanesh and he got it
I belive you might be brain dead.
He was eten by demon from sword, his soul was sealed in painting made by possed artist.

>>53980917
>But no wait, it's Fulgrim. No, it's Jagahti.
This one isn't hard to explain.

Fulgrim strives to be the best, most perfect swordsman.

The Khan will strive to win.

>>53980926
>>53980926
Problem with Magnus regaining his personality is that even if he does find all his shards, he'll still be a Daemon Primarch. It doesn't matter if he wants to be loyal, he'll still be trapped.

>>53980998
>Fulgrim strives to be the best, most perfect swordsman.
>The Khan will strive to win.
I like Jaghatai but let's not jerk him off too much. Jaghatai thought he could beat Fulgrim because he was familiar with the Phoenician's fighting style. Nobody had ever seen Jaghatai fight. I personally think Fulgrim is the better swordsman.

>>53978403
Thats not Curze dumbass

>>53981007
>It doesn't matter if he wants to be loyal, he'll still be trapped.
Yvraine freed some Thousand Sons souls from the Rubric. It's not unreasonable to think she might be able to "cure" Magnus. This is nu40k after all.

Is Sangiunius the best all around primarch?

>>53981066
Allegedly. At least, without any Chaos buffs.

>>53973494
Lion also saved the Imperium from the Rangdan.

I think of Lion as the baseline, unaltered Primarch. He's what happens if the Emperor doesn't make alterations to produce a specialist. He's a clone of the Emperor with the psyker bits replaced by super-soldier bits. Not a prototype, but the first of the line after all the tests and dry-runs. That's also why he's kind of a cunt. I also think he has the Emperor's unaltered personality.

>>53981283
>with the psyker bits replaced by super-soldier bits
All the Primarchs are psykers

>>53980931
He got out of the painting and then got Lucius to shove a Pear of Anguish into his asshole.


I shit you not.

>>53978506
Why was Typhus so into because a disease-ridden ass-pustule anyways?

There are four gods to follow, who the fuck chooses Nurgle?

>>53979707
>They attract autists who think they're smarter than everyone.

Hey, I just like magic and golems. Also the models and paint scheme are bitchin'.

>>53980704
>The Emperor was a hypocrite.
I mean, yeah, all the newfluff has gone as far as possible in making the Emperor a colossaly inept and autistic retard.

>>53981045
>Yvraine freed some Thousand Sons souls from the Rubric. It's not unreasonable to think she might be able to "cure" Magnus. This is nu40k after all.

Wait what

>>53981449
again, wait what

BTW, has all this BL drivel touched on the two "missing" legions and their primarchs?

>>53981463
His daddy was one of these alien demon necromancer things.

>>53980716
It was only "doomed to fail" in the sense that Lorgar actively destroyed it because obviously soul-eating monsters from a hell dimension are totally trustworthy.

>>53980774
Then the Emperor was really an assburger psycopath. There was no guarantees that Magnus would happily accept being entombed in the Golden Throne and became a living battery. He would really be a dick at Tzeentch's level and trick the red cyclops into sitting in that chair.
For all we know Magnus would say "fuck this, i'm out" and rebel, leave, whatever.

>>53982610
You don't have to be entombed in the thing, if the Emperor had been then he wouldn't be able to actually work on getting the thing going in the first place because he'd be too busy sitting on it. Likely Magnus would just need to be there in the lab, sitting down 24/7 is only AFTER it was broken.

Also,

>hey son, you want to usher in psychic humanity in a new age of enlightenment?
>yeah dad, that's what I always wanted!
>well, *explains Webway project*, and I'd like you to be the one powering our secret hideaway in the webway while we usher in psychic humanity secretly and away from the temptations of those powerful xenos intelligences in the Warp and so it isn't a horrible explosive one

>>53979256
They were designed to be Space Marines with a cool name.
Christ, every time I think I like the 'War of Twenty Metabarons' that the HH has turned into, I see Fenrisfags and Magnusfags bitching at each other, and suddenly wish that nothing had changed since the old, old days, that the Primarchs were just badasses and not demigods, and that Russ was a good enough guy to justify the Guard naming their tank after him.

>>53979548
Same problem as Ferrus Manus - none of the authors have felt like doing much for him (possibly because he can't help them advance their cause of bitching about daddy issues), so no stories are told with him. Plus, the White Scars have never enjoyed the kind of popularity that other Legions have enjoyed (and whether that's just because GW never been pushed them front-and-center gets into the same tired argument we have every three days when it comes to 40K faction popularity), so there was never much reason to expand the fluff.
An unfortunate consequence of these things is that he matters less, which makes him 'boring.'
It wouldn't be that hard to tell stories that make him the badass he deserves to be.
Then again, it wouldn't be that hard to write a story about the flawed fall of the Imperium that WASN'T just 'SPACE DADDY DID EVERYTHING WRONG!!!", yet, here we are.