Warcraft General

Sounds fun.

>>53943212

While the setting itself contains interesting ideas, much of the lore is a giant clusterfuck and in bad need of a rewrite.

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Sucks that they take dragon power away.

>>53943310
They've been going over it pretty seriously with the Warcraft Chronicle retcons. The next book will cover WoW itself, so I imagine it will have some heavy, heavy retcons in it to make the story less of a miserable labyrinth.

You weren't kidding when you said Illidan has a crippling habit of making bad decisions. "Warping Argus to within spitting distance of Azeroth" has to be one of the dumbest.

>>53945621
he just opened a permanent portal to it (which is not much better, of course, but this is the man who wanted to destroy the polar caps of his world to smelt a single glacier)

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>>53945621
It's not warping, it's "making a permanent portal to Argus"
But yes, FOR FUCK'S SAKE, ILLIDAN, THIS IS WHY NO ONE TRUSTS YOU WITH ANYTHING.
BECAUSE YOU PUT EVERYONE IN DANGER WITH WHATEVER HARE-BRAINED SCHEME YOU MADE UP WHILE INJECTING DEMON-JIZZ AGAIN.

>>53943453
Sucks that they made dragon gods into hot girls. It's almost like they're gooks in disguise.

>>53945878
Illidan's character traits since he was made
1. Chosen for a great destiny
2. FUCKING MORONIC EXECUTION OF EVERY PAN HE MAKES

>>53945878
Well I guess the scourge has to help now. Someone get kel'thuzad on the phone

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>>53946916
Kel thuzad is such a cool motherfucker. Why are liches so good?

>>53946916
But Bolvar is already ordering every Ebon Knight to aim their gryphons skyward and form the vanguard. I really like that we can see Argus from almost anywhere in the world now also, it's really cool. Do we have any idea what the landscape of Argus will be like? I'm pretty sure it'll be black rocks and green lava everywhere and I really don't want it to be. The Legion have been there for thousands of years though, I can't imagine the Army of the Light have made much progress.

>>53947071
>implying as soon as we leave he aimt getting the graveyards raided

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>Sometimes, the hand of fate must be forced.

>>53943212
Argus restoration/terraforming initiative when?

>>53946249
at least, blizzards is consistent

>>53943212
Legion is inching closer and closer to wod levels of garbage. Mechanical and balance issues aside the burning legion is about at threatening at this point as the iron horde.

We should have lost, or at the absolute least be consigned to needing to pull an orc- and find a new world. I want to load into stormwind and see endless armies laying siege to every settlement while burning everything else. If we mannage to BS our way to a win we need to turn around, realize that pretty much all the fresh water and viable farmland is ruined, and invade somewhere else

>>53943212
There must always be a retcon

>>53947772
Not going to happen, because apparently Azeroth has a one-of-a-kind world soul, arguably the most powerful world soul in all the cosmos. If anyone can beat the Void Lords, it's Azeroth, but if Azeroth ever gets corrupted, everything is fucked forever. This is why Sargeras is so focused on destroying Azeroth: because he doesn't want to take that chance.

>>53947904
It would've been nice to take some losses beyond Varian. We've seen worlds scoured clean of life by the Legion, some token invasions outside cities don't cut it. It would've been a great time to pull a new Cataclysm style world-update. You don't need everything to be Legion centric either, defias make their play while the armies of Stormwind are distracted, the Orcs move into Ashenvale some more while the Night Elves pull back to defend Hyjal once more. All sorts of stuff. I get that there are abstractions for the purpose of gameplay, but it doesn't feel like a huge apocalyptic invasion at all.

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Summer is indeed upon us.

Could you people, kindly, fuck off to another board?

>>53948069
You know we had these threads all through Autumn last year right anon? A lot of lore discussion, we're currently discussing the events of the last patch that have made the doom of the world a little more likely.

>>53948069
No. Go ahead and carry on in your autistic crusade to destroy /tg/ by making it "pure" though.

Salafist scum.

>>53947071
>yfw Death Knights have gotten more and more metal as Legion goes on
>yfw Death Knights are going to siege a fucking demon planet, literally raining undead onto the hordes of the Burning Legion

>>53948106
>You know we had these threads all through Autumn last year right anon?
I know, and they devolved to utter dogshit.
Warcraft's lore is currently in rotten state, and discussing it here will just add more pollution.

Please, go back.

>>53948232
I really like that while Blizzard fucked up most classes campaigns they were 100% spot-on with the Death Knights. The Warriors dick about in Valhallah because that's what all Warriors wanted right? Rogues form a special secret club in the sewers and Warlocks build an army they can't use. DKs go around and resurrect every cool character they can get their hands on, nearly start a civil war and have nothing but disdain for pathetic mortal-kind who can't get their thumbs out of their arses.

What is it about DKs that makes that fit them? I'm not alone in thinking it makes more sense for Warriors and Paladins to be at the forefront of this fight I'm sure, but the DKs are the ones getting shit done.

I had fun reading the old RPG source books until they all got retconned.

We actually had a fun spring time game going when the books were coming out. I played an Orc Barbarian / Gladiator (Blademaster) / Savage running around with a huge sized thorium greatsword. He skipped off into a portal with a human paladin bro he made friends with (another PC) and the rest of the party didn't feel like following.

So next my friend and I made twin pandaren samurai. They were like by a liche

W-What happened post W3:FT? everytime theirs a Warcraft thread people keepshitalking Warcraft universe and it's basically an indecipherable mess because I have no idea what anyone's talking about considering I never got into WoW.

>>53948282
>nearly start a civil war
>a civil war
>one
I'd count at least three. Horde, they go and rezz Nazgrim, cut their way into Undercity, and go and kill Galen and his guys. Paladins? Sure, they got that win because muh Light, but every single one of them knows that they would've gotten pwned there otherwise. Oh, and Odyn's Storm Dragons looked nice. They look nicer undead.

>What is it about DKs that makes that fit them?
Because it was three things that made the DK class fantasy up until Legion. Undead powers, being the elite hero class, and the edge. DHs took the last one, and undead powers are more a flavor descriptor, which remains the fact that DKs are the elite. There are paladin and warrior heroes, sure, but by large the class is composed of lower level weaklings. Death Knights? All of them badass mofos, as every single one of them has been constantly fighting level-relevant threats all the way to Legion levels.

>>53948450
You've missed a LOT.

>>53948282

The Paladin order questchain winds up turning into the Paladin-Priest tagteam to beat down a dreadlord, which fits the themes for the two classes, really.

We also get a female Night Elf Paladin. Not too shabby, all told.

>>53948462

That's true. I was only counting the Paladins for Civil War purposes. I guess being the coolest motherfuckers does count for something afterall.

>>53948482
>We also get a female Night Elf Paladin.
At the expense of the priests. All priests seem to talk about is how paladins are better than them.

>>53948504
Heck, make it four with the Wyrmrest Accord. DKs just wiped 90% of the remaining Red Dragonflight while passing through the Ruby Sanctum, and it's worse now that dragons can't even breed anymore.
Alexstrasza's gonna be pissed.

>>53948532
I've not actually finished their campaign yet, my DK is stuck in levelling hell where I can't bear to go to any of the zones again.
>>53948482
I forgot about the Priest finale, I was more weirded out by the fact that their best decision is to hide away in a space-ship rather than instance the Cathedral of the Light in Stormwind or something.

>>53948106

Not the guy you were responding to, but yes, I do remember them. They were fucking awful.

>>53943212
Post TFT pre TBC or Vanilla as depicted in the Warcraft rpg sourcebooks is a very viable tabletop rpg setting, honestly. there were lots of cool adventure ideas scattered through them.

>>53948482
>role up a priest on a new server to play with friends
>quest through legion with paladin friend
>stay relatively in the dark about class hall stuff for when I level my alts
>class hall campaign; legion finds out we stole there temple and plans to come take there shit back
>call up paladins to save us because the only damage spec we have is shadow, which is about as useful as having a bundle of purple fireworks
>shit goes south fast, demons kicking down the door
>suddenly a HOLY DREADLORD flys down on a magic flying saucer, saves the day, and steals a night elf to teach her to be a paladin, a class nelves can't even be
>paladin friend says it makes sense if you go through his class hall

Being Meguka is suffering

>>53948948
I was initially outraged about the holy Dreadlord. But when I thought of him as a Nathrezim and not a Dreadlord it started to make a bit more sense. I've still not done the Paladin campaign as I feel blizzard might shit on my headcanon, but the Nathrezim as a race might not all have been corrupted by the Legion like all Highborne Elves didn't become Naga, so it makes sense that some of them might fight back and use the Light.

>>53949002
Nathrezim ARE Dreadlords, and the one thing they are famed for amongst the Legion is being professional liars.

>>53949002
Still some bullshit.

On the topic of this thread being /tg/:
If you convinced your play group to play a Warcraft Campaign, and you could do any combination of race and class, what would you play in each era? (E.g. Warcraft 1; 2; 3; Vanilla and each expansion being a separate era)

>>53948025
>beyond Varian

Fuck Blizz for killing off Vol'jin.

>>53949079
All elven reclamation of Quel'thalas post WC3.

Outlands after TFT: Illidan is unconcious or dead as fits your purposes, the fragile alliance between the Naga/Blood elves/Broken draenei is looking shaking, you are the pointmen of each major grouping. Work to conquer Outlands, ensure those orcs don't rebel now that Illidan is in a bad way, close/open Dark portals to different worlds, keep the alliance united, or abuse it for the agenda of your own race. Players could be naga, high elves, draenei and even former Maghteridon fel orcs now in servitude to the gang.

Also one campaign during the heigt of the troll wars would be dope.

>>53949002
The paladin campaign is pretty much just you being told you're the greatest of all time. The DPS pally spec is more or less playing out a shounen anime.

Source: Ret pally main.

>>53945878

>retcon him into a dindu nuffin good boi from the community, tryna turnin his life around
>he still manages to fuck up everything

>>53949079

Human paladin travelling the world, meeting new races and genereally acting like a noble knight to make a good first impression of humans.

>>53948450
Don't bother with it. Post W3 lore is spinoff at best, fanfiction at worst.

>>53946947
>>53947071
Because he is literally the best. Has the sexiest voice, 2 time raid boss, is still alive and is like one of the most powerful magic users in the setting. Why wouldnt you ask him to come over, make snappy quips and blast some demons?

>>53948450

Several retarded writers pushing their shit independently of eachother.

Also, the entire storyline reeks like something a shitty DM would whip up, something bigger and badder coming up and threatening the world just to raise the steaks and characters act without reason just to enable it.

>>53949077
I figured Dreadlord was just their given name, but they were the race Nathrezim? Least that's how I understood it.
>>53949079
God dammit Blizzard.
>>53949079
I'd love to play a campaign set in Lordaeron during Warcraft 2, heading to Amani territory, following those damn Orcs through Arathi. I'm not sure exactly when Lothar established the Silver Hand, but I'd play a Human Paladin. Warcraft has a neat 'good god' in that it's just good. There's no "vengeance paladin" rubbish, because Vengeance must not be part of what we do Arthas".

>>53949079

Either an Orc Warrior seeking a Good Death or an adventurous Dwarf Hunter in search of great riches and titan lore.

>>53943212
So, will Illidan betray us again soon? Because I can't wait to stave the head of the stupid prick in again.
And while we're at it we could also take prime fangirl Xe'ra and toss her into the void. Make A'dal boss of all Naaru.

>>53945878
What better way to get the entire world to fight the demons than to bring the demons to them and give them no choice about it?

>>53950211
7.3 will end with Illidan teleporting Orgrimmar and Stormwind onto the surface of Argus to better fight the Legion.

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>>53945878
I absolutely love this moment. You can see that Illidan did this purely to drop another dank meme. Just look at that smug fucking face.

It has the secondary effect of pushing the people of Azeroth to fight against the Legion or perish. The stakes are as high as they ever were. Legion isn't just in some locations somewhere being circled by troops. Every single person on Azeroth can see Argus now, the giant sword of Damocles hanging right above them. Absolutely reckless, but it gets shit done.

>>53949515
"If we allow these passions to turn to bloodlust, we will become as vile as the Orcs..."
"...lost your mind Arthas? How can you even consider..."
"Forget this business, lead yer men home!"
"...lied to your men, and betrayed tha mercenaries that fought for you. What's happenin' to ye Arthas?"
"Your young prince will find only death in the cold North."

>>53950520
He's put countless innocents in danger, and there's only so many champions to go around. In case you forgot, civilians are still a thing on Azeroth.

>>53948482
>>53948520
Its pretty insulting when you follow the events as a priest, with the High Priest of the Conclave begging the Paladins to help, even more insulting is that the Paladins consider not even helping at first.

>>53951065

The concept of all the priests of the holy light, forgotten shadow, loas, elune and whatever the fuck shadow priests are now peacefully sitting together praying is ludicrous to begin with.

Priest order hall should've been an ancient reclaimed temple of elune on the broken isles with each of the faiths/races having their own sections.

A witch doctor styled room for trolls, cathedral styled hall for humans and dwarves, maybe tauren would be on the roof or something to be closer to the sun, naaru themed section for draenei etc.

>>53951472
>imblying night elves would ever allow lesser races, especially smelly tauren to bring their heathen faiths into a temple of elune :DD

>>53951396
We aren't really given much insight into the workings of the conclave could easily just be desperation of the burning legion invasion making them willing to work together, same way the Blood Knights, Sunwalkers, Hand of Argus and Argent Crusade band together to reform the Order of the Silver Hand.

The soul of the high priest legendary also describes the conclave as "the masters of the Light and embracers of the Void - for light cannot exist without darkness, and darkness without light." so could have recruited more esoteric/reformist sects of the various faiths who won't kill eachother for using the light and shadow.

>>53951396
it should have been presented as 3-4 factions working together rather than just a big unified bunch of priests. the different races flavour were always one of the cool things about priests, that's why they had racial spells. play up all the weird religions and how some get along and some really don't.

>>53948232
This makes me want to go full unholy again. Should I abandon the light again?

>>53952130
>>53952184


>Blood Knights, Sunwalkers, Hand of Argus and Argent Crusade band together to reform the Order of the Silver Hand

Which is still a fucking retarded copout.They have nothing in same! Different cultures, different organizations, even different sources of power. I can get armies and factions grudgingly getting deployed together but priest? Fuck no. Just imagine how deeply ingrained culturally and personally into a draenei anchorite or a night elf priestess of Elune must be. Remember that old class thing "priests are spiritual leaders of their people etc." They are the absolute focal points of the values, beliefs, rules and culture of a race. Just mashing them up to be minor NPCs together cheapens all those shit.

Also sunwalkers are not even paladins. They are a walking talking le holy cow :DDD joke taken too far and an aberrant concent further ruining the game. And sun druids.

>>53952184
Shadow priests are the closest thing to psionics in Warcraft, I'm pretty sure.

>>53947904
>so focused on destroying Azeroth
>raids it just to get some kool-aid once and then half-asses it a couple of times after 20,000+ years
Truly, fierce dedication from the leader of the Burning Legion.

>>53952310

Cause that wordsoul thing is yet another retcon.

>>53952292

Regular priests can use psionics all right.

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>>53946916
>>53946947
>>53947071

Kel'thuzad dropping everything and aligning himself with the forces of good just so he can pull one of those, "I'm helping you now so I'll still have something to conqure when we're done here/Nobody is allowed to destroy the world but me!" would be pretty VIOLENTLY cool.

But I doubt blizzard would do something like that.
They're about as bad as Toriyama is with forgetting characters and piecing together their old, more interesting plot points and just improvising as they go along.

>>53948645
100% this, though I will say that there was some cool shit up through Wrath. Signs of the end, but still some neat shit. Scampering around Outland and the ethereals and everything beyond the Dark Portal getting some screen-time again. Even though it was massively axed, Wrath's interpretation of Northrend was written alongside early development. After Wrath, the game and its setting is dead to me, though.

>>53952279
Oddly enough you can find the odd Pandaren priest within Netherlight as well even though their race worships the august celestials and has no cultural conception of the Light (and by extension presumably the shadow which if they encountered would probably associate the shadow priests with the Sha)

>>53949325
You expected a dindu to make wise and rational choices?

>>53952461
Making terrible choices is one of the only things that defines Illidan. The other is trying tirelessly to fuck Tyrande, although he's supposedly over her by now.

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>>53952379

Why is KT so cool?

>>53952431

>Oddly enough

Inconsistent writing is not that odd anymore.

>>53950520
You are the reason these games are now bland, uninspired and easy-as-piss capeshit. Neck yourself.

>>53952555
No little WoWautist. ANYONE who has at any point supported WoW is the problem. Just because your autismal job simulator was more focused on grinding before doesn't mean it was better.

>>53952882
MMOs were a mistake

>>53952899
Except RuneScape quests. Those were sick.

>>53948232
>Shove a bunch of retard DKs into saronite drop pods
>????
>OLD GOD BLOOD RAIN WITH ZOMBIES

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>>53949270
IDK what class campaign you were playing Pally's got BTFO'd

> Broken shore happens and Tirion is murdered
> Through the class campaign you find out Turalyon got Rekt'd by the legion
>Naaru hate you for killing Illidan and considers the opportunity to help him "your" chance at redemption
> And to rub salt in the wound, 5 DK's literally walk into Light Hope Chapel and fuck up all the paladins there including Maxwell and Liadrin in an attempt to raise Tirion, only to be stopped by the light itself
>After the beat down at Light's hope the Highlord goes to Acherus to get the Ashbringer corrupted

>>53953094
>>Naaru hate you for killing Illidan and considers the opportunity to help him "your" chance at redemption

I hate this one especially since it was a naaru who sends you on the quest to kill him in the first place back in bc.

>>53952512
>>53952379
Only thing I want now is:

Dynamic entry saronite pods
Kel'thuzad 2.0: The king is dead, praise the king! (with undead kitty)

>>53953094
Except that's not how any of it goes.

>Tirion remains alive and gives you Ashbringer and tells you that you are the greatest paladin ever before dying to break you free from a Dreadlord and then sticks around to speak to you through Ashbringer. So even in death, his pally prowess still gets sucked off.
>Xe'ra treats you like anyone who isn't a DH, so that point is moot.
>DKs do evil shit, but you don't see any of this if you play a pally so again, moot point because the pally campaign still sucks you off.
>last bit doesn't actually happen in the paladin campaign.
>Turalyon "rekt" by the Legion except that the Army of Light shows up anywhere so you can bail out priests and be told about how the power of the Light is still the greatest ever.

Lets not forget that the paladin class hall is the only one with two random shmucks dedicated to talking about how great you are everytime you walk by.

Half the shit you mentioned doesn't even come up in the paladin campaign at all and the other stuff is still played at an angle to make it seem like you're the last and best hope of all time. Even if we count Xe'ra(who is class-encompassing) you're still being told that DA LITE is still this uber powerful force.

Tirion was given a bigger send off than the fucking Horde warchief.

>>53953779
Moreover, just for kicks.

>Pally order hall from the outside looks like this humble little chapel
>actually has a giant batcave underneath it with all these massive statues and edifaces glorifying the class
>paladins all just sit around talking about how great they are

Basically, the NEET class.

>>53953779
>Tirion gets rekt'd by Krosus only to surviving by the skin of his teeth and is then Killed by a dreadlord
>Turalyon admits that the army of light can't beat the legion
>and the fact that a Naaru hates Paladins the one class that truly serves them is hilarious (Most priests do too but shadow priests make up to much of the population to say that they all do)

>>53945691
He wanted to shatter northrend not just melt its ice.

>>53955764
>Tirion tanks a fucking raid boss and then saves the player from a Dreadlord, talking about how great they are.

That's how it actually goes. Moreover, Tirion's death is something everyone gets to see and is made out to be a big deal.

And yet the Army of Light still shows up to save the paladins in a big and glorious "WE'RE AWESOME AND POWERFUL" moment. You're acting like the brief moments of the campaign saying that the situation is shit is more than the entire rest of the campaign talking about how powerful you the player are and how awesome the paladin class is.

>Priest playerbase equals lore population.

Now you're just reaching.

>>53947449

Make Argus Great Again.

>>53948282

Mages, Warlocks and Death Knights are the only ones getting shit done.

>>53943310
>>53943552
The main reason WoW's lore is such a clusterfuck to begin with is because they retcon shit so often.

>>53955764
Why do Naaru hate paladins now?

>>53956854
They don't.

The other poster is being dense.

One Naaru shows up to tell you that killing Illidan was a bad thing, she does this for EVERY class in the game, save Demon Hunter. There is nothing special about it happening to a paladin player.

Oh, except for the part where only paladins get to keep her vessel in their order hall, so they actually get more out of the chain than any other class.

>>53945878

So Maiev was right then?

>>53956895
was it ever in doubt?

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Do shamans get anything out of the deal? They became my favorite class as time went on, and I love the idea behind them: striking deals with the elements and spirits so that they may send their power coursing through you.

How strong are shamans in the grand scheme of things, anyway?

>>53957921
Lore wise it generally goes
Warlock
Paladin = Death Knight = Demon Hunter
Mage
Powergap
Shaman = Priest
Druid
Hunter
Powergap
Rogue = Monk
Warrior

It should be noted that individuals can be much stronger than their class would suggest, take Broxigar for example, he is a warrior yet also the most powerful mortal

>>53956888
she likes demon hunters, tho

>>53958177
I feel like warlock would be on the same level as mage, Considering that the alliance needed to make a whole new class to combat the new horde Death knights, yet not there warlocks.

>>53959177
Yeah, I mentioned that in "save Demon Hunters". Because while the Xe'ra line ends with DH's being praised, the general...well...everything of Legion praises Paladins/DA LITE.

I don't really like Legion's handling of lore at all. Paladins are reduced to what human paladins are like, DKs are basically preparing for a future expac Lich King 2.0, 3 out of the 5 zones are centered around Night Elves and one of them features Tyrande and Malfurion screaming about how in love they are, Baine got removed from Highmountain. Alpha shit had Vol'jin going to get the Loa on our side but Alliance players bitched too hard about losing Varian so Vol'jin got killed off by a random demon while the Alliance Broken Shore looks like this glorious battle. For all the stuff about the Draenei on the Exodar(which makes no real sense if you play Horde), they basically have nothing this expac besides Velen being FAITHFUL(because Blizz forgot Draenei only worshipped the Naaru post leaving Argus). Half the Alliance and Horde races might as well not exist at this point for all the focus they get. It's all just...guh...I take it out on paladins because I play a paladin and I hate seeing the class be reduced to shounen anime characters

>>53959407
Uh I don't fully understand what new class your talking about.
If your refering to Warcraft 2 those death knights were actually undead human knights with warlock power (servants of the shadow council) and very different from the 3rd generation DK's

>>53958177

lorewise we went full capeshit at this point, in every zone ever the PC is the heralded chosen one, commander and leader of his class and faction

I miss being just regular adventurers/sellswords

>>53945878
>>53943212
We have to blow up Argus before the Void Lords return to Azeroth. Illidan knows we dont have time to stand around jerking each other off.

>>53959559
To be fair about the Paladins, there's not much distinguishing Dwarf Paladins from Human Paladins. Both were, and are, part of the same organization.

>>53960428
Not him, but that might be true. Doesn't mean that the Hand of Argus and draenei paladins, the Blood Knights, and the retarded Sunwalkers are indistinguishable from Human Paladins.

Or rather, they weren't. But now they are~!

>>53960428
Dwarf paladins and dwarves in general just sorta got...ignored...

>>53943212
Pre-BC sure.

>>53960519
Even pre-BC WoW lore was pretty bad. It's never been explained why Night Elves hate Orcs, despite them have a mutual respect for one another at the end of WC3. Nor has it been explained why they opted to join the Alliance when they arguably had the largest and most powerful standing army of any single faction in WC3 from a lore perspective. They also ignore the fact that Night Elves are largely xenophobic and refused to help "lesser races"

Stormwind somehow not only had enough people to rebuild itself after being sacked and burned to the ground, but also had the political clout to do it, while also fielding one of the largest military powers in the game. This would be like if WoW started and Lordaeron was the human capital, despite it being completely raised and conquered by Sylvanas.

Forsaken ally themselves with the Horde to get help to combat the Scarlet Crusade. Orcs, Trolls, and Tauren never send even a single troop to aid in this, meaning that the Forsaken allied with the Horde for absolutely no reason.

Humans and Gnomes could inexplicably be mages and warlocks, despite the fact that Magic is a closely guarded secret that Dalaran, a city that's canonically thousands of miles away and sealed off by an impenetrable arcane barrier, outright refused to share magic with outside parties. Humans were also never warlocks and neither were Gnomes, and Mages didn't you "fire" magic as it was considered to be too close to fel, yet there's a whole spec centered around it.

The list goes on and on.

>>53960074
>I miss being random adventurers/sellswords
Pretty much why I stepped out of WoW. After the Cata patch even the low level quest givers go on and on and ON about how amazing you are. You're pretty much the best thing since sliced bread once you a two out of the newbie area.

I miss when the world could take care of itself and you cut your teeth doing menial jobs and hunting bears. I guess it's a consequence of having no real endpoint for a heroic quest: things just keep going until they're stupid.

>>53960590
>It's never been explained why Night Elves hate Orcs
>Night Elves are largely xenophobic and refused to help "lesser races"
Well there's that answered. Also they're probably less than thrilled at the Orcs large-scale deforestations.

>Nor has it been explained why they opted to join the Alliance
For fuckall reasons. However:
>when they arguably had the largest and most powerful standing army
This is merely specilation. The finale of RoC definitely has them extremely weakened in every way. So them seeking allies is not totally unreasonable.

>Stormwind somehow not only had enough people to rebuild itself after being sacked and burned to the ground
Wasn't that in WC2 though? Or am I misremembering?

>Forsaken ally themselves with the Horde to get help to combat the Scarlet Crusade. Orcs, Trolls, and Tauren never send even a single troop to aid in this, meaning that the Forsaken allied with the Horde for absolutely no reason.
Yeah, that should probably be handled like the loose alliance it probably is.

>Humans and Gnomes could inexplicably be mages and warlocks, despite the fact that Magic is a closely guarded secret that Dalaran, a city that's canonically thousands of miles away and sealed off by an impenetrable arcane barrier, outright refused to share magic with outside parties. Humans were also never warlocks and neither were Gnomes, and Mages didn't you "fire" magic as it was considered to be too close to fel, yet there's a whole spec centered around it.
It's inconsistent, but can be explained away. Maybe there were other (probably secret) magic traditions outside of Dalaran? Maybe people got inventive after humanity's only source of magic got an undead army to the face?

>>53960400

>HE WUZ A GUD BOI

>>53960590

>It's never been explained why Night Elves hate Orcs, despite them have a mutual respect for one another at the end of WC3.

cause the orcs chimped out and continued to invade Ashenvale while the humans fucked off to Theramore and Jaina was Tyrandes personal friend too

>Nor has it been explained why they opted to join the Alliance
>They also ignore the fact that Night Elves are largely xenophobic and refused to help "lesser races"

There was no reason NOT to join the Alliance. Their immortality was gone, might as well take the best current deal and adapt to the new situation with allies.

>Stormwind somehow not only had enough people to rebuild itself after being sacked and burned to the ground, but also had the political clout to do it,

They had like what, twenty years to rebuild and gorillions of refugees from the northern kingdoms for manpower. That should have been enough to scrape their shit together.


>Forsaken ally themselves with the Horde

IIRC the old lore was about Magatha Grimtotem buttering their way into the Horde while every other leader categorically refused to deal with undead. Then the Earthen Ring stepped up and told 'guise dey r totally misandastood and we have to redeem them!" Then they go full scourge, plague, reanimation, genocide, retarded invasions benefitting no one etc. Bet those shaman fucks feel stupid now,

If you really want to make sense of it I guueeeeeess it could work as a realpolitik thing, a desperate attempt to stop the Alliance laughably outscaling the Horde in every possible way but even that is stupid, the newly freed orcs would never accept a fucking DREADLORD as a racial leader


>Humans and Gnomes could inexplicably be mages and warlocks, despite the fact that Magic is a closely guarded secret that Dalaran

wrong

>and sealed off by an impenetrable arcane barrier,

Only since the third war.

>outright refused to share magic with outside parties.

Just like the elves before but magic finds a way

>>53960590
>>53960650

The faction system was a mistake let's be honest. So were the Forsaken.

>>53960650
>Also they're probably less than thrilled at the Orcs large-scale deforestations.
The explanation for this is so fucking terrible too though.

>Can you give us some lumber to help build our city? Teach us how to build.
>No, we're going to go to war over some trees again and ally ourselves with a group of humans that are thousands of miles across the sea instead.

>This is merely specilation.
No it isn't. In WC3 the Horde was made up of a POWs, a band of nearly extinct trolls, and a single tribe of Tauren. The alliance consists of some Humans and dwarves that made their way over to Kalimdor on a small galleon of ships. The Night Elves on the other hand could canonically field enough martial power to stop the Burning Legion, and were also wise and powerful enough to blow up Archimonde.

>Wasn't that in WC2 though? Or am I misremembering?
It was. The point is, how is it even on the map? In WC2 the city was literally razed to the ground, it's armies were completely wiped out, and most of the nobility was dead.

Come WoW Stormwind is suddenly a powerhouse. Apparently every female gave birth to quintuplets or more, and the nation is wealthy enough to not only field the largest standing army the alliance had available, but also had the manpower to rebuild a city from literal ashes while also brokering political agreements with other races, one of which they'd never even seen before.

>Maybe there were other (probably secret) magic traditions outside of Dalaran?
No. Because per-WoW lore stated that anyone who practiced magic too much tore small rifts in the fabric of reality, which allowed things like the Fel and small demons (imps, succubus, felhounds, daemons,) to get to Azeroth and cause all kind of mayhem. Magic was kept a closely guarded secret for this exact reason.

>>53960590

>Humans were also never warlocks and neither were Gnomes

Thats right but the whole warlock thing was really expanded for WoW to make space for a new class and I guess it makes sense in a way. There always would be some wizards who fell for the siren song of fel and easy power and become cultists. The vanilla class quests really sold that feel to me, you were constantly dancing on the razors edge seeking out magical crack dens and cultist hideouts for more and more power.

>and Mages didn't you "fire" magic as it was considered to be too close to fel

It was considered dangerous but not unknown and not banned outright like necromancy. The Archmage autattack is a fireball in WC3

>>53960747
>There always would be some wizards who fell for the siren song of fel and easy power and become cultists.
They were all from Dalaran. This is a pretty simple thing that Blizzard glossed over just so mages could be a thing.

The Guardian of Tirisfal was made because of demons weaseling their way into Azeroth through the holes magic ripped in the fabric of reality.

>It was considered dangerous but not unknown and not banned outright like necromancy.
It wasn't "banned" but it wasn't taught extensively enough to be an entire school of magic. The old lore specifically refers to the Blood Mage as being regarded with caution specifically because Blood Elves had started using uncontrollable destructive powers like fire.

>>53960729
>The explanation for this is so fucking terrible too though.
Th ORC<->NE part fits though. The NE<->Human part is wank.

>The Night Elves on the other hand could canonically field enough martial power to stop the Burning Legion, and were also wise and powerful enough to blow up Archimonde.
And they used it to stop the Burning Legion and blow up Archimonde.

>Stormwind
Well they had some ~40 years if I'm not mistaken. With enough political support and some magic handwaving I can see how you could build a city in that time.

>No. Because per-WoW lore stated that anyone who practiced magic too much tore small rifts in the fabric of reality, which allowed things like the Fel and small demons (imps, succubus, felhounds, daemons,) to get to Azeroth and cause all kind of mayhem. Magic was kept a closely guarded secret for this exact reason.
Why would they have a rule against it if there weren't people who violated it? It's certainly not unthinkable.

>>53960747
>The Archmage autattack is a fireball in WC3
And WC2. Though I think he's just called Mage or Wizard there.

>>53958177
>Warlock
>Stronger than DHs lore-wise
did you miss the part where Kanrethad Ebonlocke tried super hard to match demon hunter strength but failed?

>>53953839
Prepper class.
DK is evil police state

>>53960729

Neithers of the factions should be as strong as they are. Or at least the Humans and Orcs shouldn't be the lead Races.

By Warlords of Draenor, the factions are strong enough to fight a war that trots the globe, invade another world where they fend off an Iron Horde, and will apparently chase away the Legion again, in no more than a decade.

It's been how long since the carnage of the First to Third Wars?

>>53960808
>40 years

Not even that, anon.

Everything from WC1 to Legion has taken place in about 35 years. Meaning that Stormwind recovered not in 40 years, but between the events of WC1 and WoW, which is closer to a decade and a half tops.

That's...practically no time at all.

>>53960794

Dalaran was THE magical power and authority but even in WC2 other nations had some wizards.


>but it wasn't taught extensively enough to be an entire school of magic.

You cant tell that. They obviously had fire spells, it wasnt banned and it seems entirely logical they would use more dangerous techniques, especially after the leejun has already invaded(again) and Dalaran was gone as a federal bureau of fire magic, mana crystals and forbidden knowledge.

>The old lore specifically refers to the Blood Mage as being regarded with caution

Its only logical, if you lose control over a water spell, you get a splash, if you lose control over a fire spell you get burned and and start a forest fire.

>>53960846

Reign of Chaos's manual says Stormwind was a prosperous millitary power under Varian though.

>>53960846
>Everything from WC1 to Legion has taken place in about 35 years. Meaning that Stormwind recovered not in 40 years, but between the events of WC1 and WoW, which is closer to a decade and a half tops.
To be fair, the entirety of WoW takes place in about 5 years or so (barring time travel shenannigans). So that leaves 30 years to rebuild a city. That is reasonable amounts of handwaving.

>>53960794

> It wasn't "banned" but it wasn't taught extensively enough to be an entire school of magic. The old lore specifically refers to the Blood Mage as being regarded with caution specifically because Blood Elves had started using uncontrollable destructive powers like fire.

The lore you're talking about had the Blood Elves by large being demonic instead of just Kael'thas' followers though (and that the BEs were the only remnants of the High Elves in at least the Eastern Kingdoms).

>>53960893

Rebuilding is one thing. Being a superpower is another.

>>53960893
>years
In 5 years:
Scourge+lelementlals+old cunts
Invading another planet
Scourge hometurf
Angry dergon+old cunts
Invade another continent+old cunts
Invade another planet. IN THE PAST. Less awesome than it sounds.
Lelgion daemons.

Azeroth is a hell hole

>>53960937
>Azeroth is a hell hole
Well if you have to keep escalating threats to keep players with short attention spans paying monthly subscriptions, the writing kind of tends to suffer.

So if you had to keep 7 things introduced in WoW or its connected Expanded Universe for a reboot/reimagining/whatever, what gets kept?

>>53960893
You don't understand.

Stormwind wasn't rebuilt in 30 years, it was rebuilt in less time than that. Closer to 20, if we're being generous since it was 20 since the city was burned, not since the city was retaken.

WoW has been a bit longer than 5 years, closer to ten. And in that time, the world has had invasions, wars, famines, disasters, and all manner of shit, and none of this ever matters, people have armies when it is convenient and casualties never count.

>>53960885
Which is still a bullshit thing since it was burned to the ground just years before.

>>53960949
Ebon blade world police seven times.

>>53960948

It wouldn't be so ridiculous if there were bigger time gaps between events.

Actually, the lore might have turned out better if they stuck with the plan to have a century pass between TFT and WoW.

>>53960932

Its nowhere near as bad as what happened during WoW, especially with the Horde. They went to shamanistic tribal refugees in a desert tryna turn their lives around and get good jobs in the community into some sort of global juggernaut pulling out fleets, armies and airships out of their ass.

>>53960840
daily reminder that Sylvanas is putting blight in the water to make the living gay

buy AlexiosPur water filters and visit infocrusades.epl

>>53960968

>Which is still a bullshit thing since it was burned to the ground just years before.

I wouldn't say that. It's not stretch for Stormwind to maintain a lead in the southern areas of the EKs. Obviously the High Kingdom that lords over everybody else in the Alliance is junk but we can ignore that.

>>53961025
The new scourge is the old globalist scourge

>>53961040
But the Southern areas of the EK has the Gurubashi, which Stormwind couldn't beat at its height without Medivh coming to bail them out.

The same trolls who beat the Horde at its height. (But honestly, most troll lore can be summed as "We wuz kangs")

>>53961084

I wish There Must Always Be A Lich King never happened.

>>53958177
fucking wrong

warlock > death knight (saronite armor deflects divine magic) > mage=demon hunter > paladin=druid > shaman=priest > monk=warrior (because they both use magic anyway. warcraft isnt mount and blade. heroic leap is a thing) > rogue > hunter

All this WoW talk, and no mention of the OFFICIAL Warcraft TTRPG? What cads you all are! I mean, sure, it's either an edition or a rip of 3.5, depending on the edition you're looking at, but it exists! (And it has some neat ideas that have never actually shown up in a proper Warcraft game.)

That said, recent WoW expansions have stomped on some of it, but. Well.

>>53961162
I dont.
Bolvar is best.
Go kill yourself living shit.

>>53961341

We already talked it out dozens of times and even launched a few campaigns. The setting is just absolutely great, billions of plot hooks and directions to go. My favorite thing is how they statted out absurdly powerful shit like The Lich King, Elune and the titans. Even shit like Frostmourne or the Armor of the Damned are perfectly lootable items.

>>53961375
>statted Frostmourne
devours 1d4 souls per round?

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>>53943552
Chronicles is half the reason the writing's such a clusterfuck.

The other half is that the writing is plainly garbage.

>>53961713

This. Retcons everything into stupid shit. You dont lay out cosmology like this.

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daily reminder that if the tol'vir hadn't stabbed Lei Shen in the back, we'd have destroyed the Legion and Old Gods by now

>>53961753
the tol'vir are those stone cat people that did fuck all in uldum from what I remember.

>>53961945
they are cowardly traitors to the titans who deserve everything Al'Akir did to them, and more for destroying the only titanforged race that didn't degenerate into flesh

>>53961959
who did they destroy? It's been a while since I did that zone.

>>53961976
Lei Shen's mogu
it was never brought up until Chronicles, but the actual reason that Lei Shen died was because the tol'vir activated the life-erasing weapon in the Forge of Origination to stop the mogu and Zandalari trolls from taking it over and building new armies of titanforged to burge Azeroth of its corruption.

The activation of the weapon killed all life above-ground in Uldum, Tanaris and Silithus; including Lei Shen, most of the mogu military, and the entire noble class of the Zandalari Empire, who'd come with Lei Shen to observe his army in action. Which destoryed the Mogu Empire and damned Pandaria to be overrun by the spawn of Wild Gods and Y'shaarj

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>>53962018
Thanks. Haven't go around to reading Chronicle yet. Lei shen was a cool dude and this only further confirms it

>>53962033
Lei Shen was based and did nothing wrong. If he'd won, the titanforged would be decursed, the trolls and their descendants would unify into a grand vassal kingdom, and the lesser races would be enslaved to build the works that would save Azeroth from corruption, within and without

>>53960932
To be fair, it only became a super power because it was the last intact-ish Human kingdom after W3. WoW makes a lot more s named if you view it as basically a cripple fight.

>>53962290

In vanilla their troops were stretched so thin they could barely garrison their own land, thats why you had to help out militias like the Night Watch or the Westfall Militia. Everyone was hammered down to the ground in vanilla.

Orcs were a bunch of refugees in the desert.
Trolls were the beaten remnants of a single tribe.
Tauren were nearly exterminated by centaurs and only lived because of the orcs.
The forsaken were squatting in abandoned human ruins.
Gnomes even lost their city.
Humans have just rebuilt their shit from the second war then had to deal with refugees from Lordaeron.

The dwarves were the only ones who had their shit in order, sitting tight in their factory-city and controlling loadsa land.

D K W O R L D P O L I C E

>>53962352
>The forsaken were squatting in abandoned human ruins.

You mean their own homes

>>53962401

No, the forsaken completely abandoned any rights to the land when they turned on the army of lordaeron. Even in vanilla you keep massacring the few surviving civilian settlements.

>>53962439
>the Army of Lordaeron
>existing
>having any authority after the death of King Terenas
nice try Balnazar

>>53962470

You know, Grand Marshal Garithos and his field army of Lordaeronian soldiers. Of course it doesnt count because he was an eeeeevil racist who said mean things to bitch boy kael and hurt his feelings.

You start out by murdering some pumpkin farmers who are mentioned to "desperately cling to their land" as a forsaken newbie.

They attacked and genocided Hillsbrad and Southshore, both Lordaeronian towns witt Lordaeronian flags still displayed.

Also, heres a list of the nations the forsaken have attacked

>Gilneas
>Dalaran
>Stromgarde
>Stormwind
>Lordaeron
>Wildhammer Dwarves
>High Elves

>>53962541

>said mean things
Strange, I thought he ordered the execution of an allies royal prince.

>>53962579

>what is a court-martial

>>53962623

>no trial
>on a royal prince
>on your only ally against the scourge
>unironically defending garithos' blunders

Scourge really did nothing wrong

>>53962650

The joke is how Garithos was obviously set up the biggest Racist McEvilbadguy strawman in the galaxy yet he eventually came out right.

>>53962670
Admiral Proudmoore ended up being right, Garithos was wrong and a failure

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Daily reminder that the Forsaken fought only defensive wars against human aggressors after breaking free from some of the most inane mind control ever introduced in any setting.

>>53960714

>Then they go full scourge, plague, reanimation, genocide, retarded invasions benefitting no one etc. Bet those shaman fucks feel stupid now,

Nothing wrong with the plague and reanimation of Alliance wanting to take back Lordaeron. Garrosh was the one who forced the Forsaken into 'retarded invasions' (like Gilneas for a port). Otherwise pushing the last Alliance hold out of Lordaeron (South Shore) and bringing down the last of those Stormics is all good for the Forsaken and their borders; especially because for years these people have been trying to wipe them out.

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>>53962439

The Forsaken tried to rejoin the Alliance prior to vanilla but were hated and treated as enemies to be purged from Lordaeron. Later on, the Alliance is A-OK with having Death Knight's.

Which human settlements are you talking about? The ones allied with the Scarlet Crusade?

>>53962702
>>53962741


Dont even try to start up this stale shitposting

>>53962470

>They attacked Hillsbrad and Southshore.

Yeah because these settlements attacked them first, and were murdering Forsaken civilians or sabotaging basic trade vital to keeping a hold on their land.

>Gilneas

Garrosh's orders

>Dalaran

In Silverpine? Rogue agents that were aiding the Alliance and attacking the Forsaken. Later on Metzen claimed (via Red Shirt Guy) that it wasn't canon.

>Stromgarde

A nation of traitors with a prince who killed his own father, fell into ruins but for some reason began fighting the Forsaken. Now the kingdom belongs, and their capital, belongs to the undead.

>Stormwind

When?

>Lordaeron

Um lol.

>Wildhammer Dwarves

Gee this list is now just sounding like things the Horde and Alliance have engaged.

>High Elves

Traitors who actively aid the Alliance and attack the Horde.

>>53962776

>The Forsaken tried to rejoin the Alliance prior to vanilla but were hated

No they didnt.

>and treated as enemies to be purged from Lordaeron.

They attacked Lordaeronian troops and civilians, what else they were?

>Which human settlements are you talking about?

Literally every single one of them in the northern kingdoms. Even that dinky Dalaran settlement in Silverpine. Dont even try to claim Southshore or Hillsbrad had anything to do with scarlets.

>>53962827
Maybe you shouldnt shit all over your ancestors after they were killed, raised to fight against their will, mind raped and had their souls trapped in some kind of limbo between this world and the next only to break free from it all.

>>53960817
Can't Demonhunters just use the power of the Demon they bond with? Every DH can't be bonded with a Pitlord, Infernal or Dreadlord right? Some must be connected to something shitty like a Felhound or a Voidwalker. What makes them more powerful than the Warlock that can enslave a small army of Demons?

>>53962863

>No they didnt.

Sylvanas sent emissaries to various factions in search of allies. The Alliance refused them but the Horde took them in.

>They attacked Lordaeronian troops and civilians, what else they were?

FYI Lordaeron no longer exists as a nation at this point, they are merely the Alliance. Regardless these settlements were funnelling troops into Hillsbrad and even the Scarlet Crusade (vanilla Scarlet Monastery questline). During this period Southshore and Tarren Mill weren't actively attacking each other but were engaged in sabotaging one another:

http://www.wowhead.com/quest=567/deprecated-dangerous

In the end, Garrosh ordered the Horde expansion and thus the Forsaken followed suit.

>Literally every single one of them in the northern kingdoms. Even that dinky Dalaran settlement in Silverpine. Dont even try to claim Southshore or Hillsbrad had anything to do with Scarlets.

Southshore was Scarlet sympathisers who funnelled recruits through its town towards the Monastery initially until the quest giver becomes redeemed and instead warns people of their corruption. Dalaran is sketchy because it's 'canon' status is disputed, but also because these Dalaran agents were rogue, and not actively part of the order (aiding the Alliance as so-called neutrals).

>>53963133
because DHs can consume as much demon energy as they can get their hands on, and it's implied that the demon the initially consume is felguard/doomguard tier

>>53963153

>Sylvanas sent emissaries to various factions in search of allies. The Alliance refused them but the Horde took them in.


Wrong.

>FYI Lordaeron no longer exists as a nation at this point, they are merely the Alliance

>soldiers and citizens of lordaeron under the lordaeronian flag somehow have less rights to stay on their land than the undead trying to genocide them

>During this period Southshore and Tarren Mill weren't actively attacking each other but were engaged in sabotaging one another:

Another factually incorrect bullshit. As a a forsaken player you just fucking genocide Hillsbrad off the map even in vanilla and its even worse in cata.


>Dalaran is sketchy because it's 'canon' status is disputed,

No, its not. You attack that Dalaran village in Silverpine, you attack the Dalaran Internment Camp then you go and attack Dalaran itself and hunt survivors among the ruins.


Getting real tired of people defending a pitch black evil faction just because they are waifuing their whore of a leader.

Ethereals are cool as fuck. Too bad they got completely ignored after BC.
Energy mummy space jews are a cool as fuck concept but fuck cool shit right

The seven "kingdoms" are pretty much just city-states?

>>53963282
Hang in there anon, if we got more lore on the Arrakoa there's hope for the Ethereals yet!

>>53963291
Alterac and Dalaran are the only City States of the Seven Kingdoms.
And Altarac had another Town as well.

>>53962381
>when HS accepted the EBPD meme

>>53963470
>Sergeant Sally is a shit card that's only playable in wild warlock decks
I bet the Light did this

>>53963483
I wish that post lelgion they update wow as a whole.

>scourge world police mugging about in the slummy parts of azeroth
>paranoid prepper paladins with Alexionus Johanes

>>53949487
>raise the steaks
Tauren dks?

>>53960074
>>53960601
That's what happens when your career becomes as long and storied as the PC's is. You've survived every single campaign and incursion thrown at you. It's at the start of Wrath when the game starts taking you seriously as a character because "holy shit, you survived the Outland campaign. You're a badass."

Isn't the Army of the Light on Argus?

>>53963532
>tfwywn be a leading member of the Bolvarberg group

>>53952921
>rw nw prt m hrw names this manoeuvre blud rehn

>>53963582
yes
the thing I'm most looking forward to in Legion is finding out what the Army of the Light is actually doing
>tfw Chronicles confirms that the Apexis didn't join the Army of the Light with glorious sunships

I'm concerned on how the map is going to look.

Already crowded with Outland and Dreanor, where the fuck are they gonna put Argus?

>>53963222

>Wrong.

Cite me.

>Another factually incorrect bullshit. As a a forsaken player you just fucking genocide Hillsbrad off the map even in vanilla and its even worse in cata.

Cite me.

>No, its not. You attack that Dalaran village in Silverpine.

Yeah I have done the same quests, I'm telling you, according to Metzen at the time, the situation in Dalaran isn't canon and the guy who even designed the quests got fired.

>>53963705
it'll probably be sectioned into the Broken Isles I imagine

Is Sylvanas going to avenge Vol'jin like that human guy, or is she going to just muck about in Undercity, not giving a shit thanks to her "I'm scared of death, time to enslave all the val'kyr" plan went tits up when angry wolf people showed up?

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>>53963845
Most likely the latter. The only folks who would stick their neck out for Vol'jin are the Darkspear trolls themselves. Maybe the orcs and tauren, but given current events, that might take a bit of doing.

Which is a shame, because a) the Darkspears have been shit on for a long while, and b) the Horde lost a not-insignificant asset in Vol'jin, arguably the greatest Shadow Hunter of all time.

>>53963845
Sylvanas joined the Legion and is currently waiting to stab us in the back when we go to Argus

>>53963889
>>53963889
Being friends with the god of death doesn't stop you from getting killed by fel poison apparently.

Only reason he died was because the Alliance were being big babies about Varian's death and wanted the Horde to suffer the same thing.

Why Sylvanas' secret mission into Stormhime would make sense, she's not suppose to be there she's suppose to be fighting the Legion. Not to mention that if you controlled the entire Horde, you would have brought a lot more ships on your immortality mission. Not just some undead scrubs.

Would also cause conflict with Vol'jin so we would have our Horde side bout and not just watching Andwyn cry over his dad's ashes about him being too pussy to lead.

>>53963970
Varian got an entire monument to him in Stormwind as well. I'm not aware of Vol'jin getting nearly the same treatment.

>>53963890

Honestly this would be a better storyline than anything else they could come up for her.

>>53964037
if Gul'dan's dialogue for Horde raids actually means anything, it's fairly credible
>only death will inherit this world... and she will be waiting

>>53964031
We just burnt his body and moved on.

Varian's ghost is more relevant than Vol'jin at this point.

Now we're gonna have to kill Sylvanas for bring s cunt and replace her with Lo'thremar thanks to his advisor mentioning it during the Isle of Thunder.

>tfw no alternate alternate universe where Garrosh waited until Draenor was completely under the control of the Iron Horde before attacking Azeroth

>>53964795
>no alternate universe where the horde supported Garrosh and made azeroth great again

>>53964888

>this tired old meme again

>>53964888
>azeroth great again
You mean before the dark trolls stumbled upon the well of eternity?

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>>53958177

>hunters
>rogues
>monks
>death knights
>paladins
>all stronger than warrior
>mfw

I guess you forgot that time that one of the best Warriors defeated THE best Monk, eh?

This isn't D&D. In Warcraft, epic-level martials are essentialy Herculean demigods and can easily fuck up an epic-level spellcaster. Spellcasters in Warcraft can't Wish someone into nothingness. They have to blast people apart or swarm them with fire/ice/whatever.

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I was the first, you know...

>>53965708

The wheel spins again

>>53965656

Yeah, there is no linearityin the power levels between classes in warcraft, especially how many of the epic-level named characters and faction bosses are multiclassed. Take Tyrande for example, she has been high priestess of Elune and a master huntress with 10k years of experience. Or Thrall who was already a season gladiator even before he first spoke to the elements.

So could 4e be used as a system for all this setting info?

>>53965844
Yeah it works pretty well, the classes match up poorly though, and you should probably homebrew up the races, since the 4e standard races don't really encompass Warcraft races that well, even the ones that you think would, like half orcs to orcs, or eladrin to blood elves

>>53958177
nah. The Light, The Void, Fel, Arcane, Life, and Death are the fundemental forces of the (nu-) warcraft universe. The classes which draw directly from them are all basically equal, with huge variation among individuals

>>53956825
>The main reason WoW's lore is such a clusterfuck to begin with is because they retcon shit so often.
This. They change their story every time they need to shit out a new expansion.

What have they retconned after warcraft 3?

>>53966271

>introduce whole bunch of new shit
>hype it up as the MOST IMPORTANT THING EVAR!!
>clumsily retcon around to make it fit
>drop it like a used ten dollar whore after the expansion pack ands
>never bring them up again unless they are trying to rehash it on purpose, and in that case they retcon it to shit anyway


its unironically capeshit down with demigods and "epic moments" instead of a world you can wander around in

>>53966392
archimonde's death

>>53960590
were the azerothian conjurers not independent of Dalaran?

>>53962685
will garrosh also end up right?

>>53960590
>Humans and Gnomes could inexplicably be mages and warlocks, despite the fact that Magic is a closely guarded secret that Dalaran, a city that's canonically thousands of miles away and sealed off by an impenetrable arcane barrier, outright refused to share magic with outside parties. Humans were also never warlocks and neither were Gnomes, and Mages didn't you "fire" magic as it was considered to be too close to fel, yet there's a whole spec centered around it.
Uh, Khadgar mentioned being best at fire.
>>53960590
>Stormwind somehow not only had enough people to rebuild itself after being sacked and burned to the ground, but also had the political clout to do it, while also fielding one of the largest military powers in the game. This would be like if WoW started and Lordaeron was the human capital, despite it being completely raised and conquered by Sylvanas.
The refugee fleet in WC2 was *Huge* and there were probably people hiding in Redridge caves or down in Stranglethorn.


>>53961090
>But the Southern areas of the EK has the Gurubashi, which Stormwind couldn't beat at its height without Medivh coming to bail them out.
>The same trolls who beat the Horde at its height. (But honestly, most troll lore can be summed as "We wuz kangs")
Wait what? Was that in Chronicles Volume 2?

And trying to beat the Gurubashi on their home turf seems like a bad idea.
>>53961738
>>53961713
>>53943552
Yeah, part of the reason I loved The Last Guardian so much is just how much fog of war there seemed to be over the entire setting, the whole world was a mystery with only little pieces coming into focus at a time.

>>53966855
Yeah, it's in Volume 2. The Gurubashi fought both Stormwind and the Horde to a standstill.

>>53967350
No wonder they seemed so depleted in Vanilla.

>>53966085
The new ordering of magic is so awful. It's like they just took a bunch of random fucking schools of magic and threw them together and set they were fundamental parts of the universe.

Like what the fuck is Arcane doing under "Order" when it was and still is, constantly said to be inherently chaotic and difficult to control?

The Chronicle is basically a bunch of fan fiction trying to tie together a bunch of broken pieces.

>>53967473
Again, troll lore is basically that X troll tribe used to be really strong and powerful and now...just...isn't.

To be fair, trolls are also used as fodder for extra raids during expacs, even ones like the Zandalari who Chronicle describes as being some of the most powerful magic users/shamans/warlocks in the world.

>>53966855

>Yeah, part of the reason I loved The Last Guardian so much is just how much fog of war there seemed to be over the entire setting, the whole world was a mystery with only little pieces coming into focus at a time.

This is how lore should be revealed. Crypic, messages, ancient tomes, contradicting legends of races etc. They should be OH SHI- reveals, something for the dedicated followers of lore to slowly piece togehter. Not some shit they just whip out on the table and go "here, this is how the universe works"

At this point, a reboot would unironically the best option.

>>53967721
Yeah, they seem to try and answer every single question and explain every little detail without giving it a whole lot of thought. A lot of the origin stuff in the first chronicle is pretty terrible.

>>53967625
And the PCs are members of the Darkspears, one of the smallest and most insignificant troll tribes who also break with a number of troll conventions (no cannibalism, more careful with voodoo, etc).

>>53963165
Ohh right, so the Demon they bond with is more of a conduit for further Fel? I figured it was more a catalyst affair, they could channel all of the power of said Demon, but only that much which is why Illidan needed the skull of Gul'Dan to level up.
>>53967955
I both agree and disagree. I think clarity can be a good thing, but what Chronicles feels the need to clarify isn't necessarily always the right thing. And the things left vague feel like maybe they should have some clarity. C1 gives us all the information on most of the races of Azeroth, but the Tauren are just "well they went north and called themselves Tauren I guess".

>>53968202
There was a lot of information just given in the books that had never really been eluded to anywhere else. The one which sticks out is learning that sargeras actually killed the other titans when he turned against them, until then it had been assumed they were possibly still around

>>53968429
That was a real kick in the pants, wasn't it?
>Where are all the other Titans?
>I KILLED THEM ALL
>What?! Why?!
>I PANICKED OKAY

>>53968674
Was pretty underwhelming just reading it in a lore compilation though, it was never hinted at in game or in any of the other material. They just needed a reason to explain why the titans had been gone for so long.

>>53968689
It appears to explain why the Titans have seemed so hands-off in their work and why all local data on them seems out-of-date. It also takes the sails out of the Algalon fight back in Wrath, because there's no one to phone home to.

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Humans were a mistake.

>>53968754
I mean Cata explained that it was actually a satellite network and the Halls of Origination dungeon in Uldum...

If you can get past the Indiana Jones stuff.

>>53968674
>>53968689

The titans coming back was some real menacing shit, slowly building up over the expansions like a tsunami. We knew how hardcore they were, algalon alone almost reoriiginated our shit and he was just a construct.

All that mystique, all that looming presence, gone, retconned away to build up Sargeras as a bigger and badder boss for WoD like he needed it

>>53961350

>The Scourge is somehow more dangerous without all its major commanders

Go away Blizzshill.

>>53962352

All that went out the window in Cataclysm and beyond when the factions could fight a world war.

>>53962401
>>53962702
>>53962741

>Forsaken Dindu Nuffin

The Forsaken being playable was a mistake.

>>53962541
>>53962623
>>53962670

>Garithos dindu nuffin

Garithos is just a strawman there to make the Blood Elves hostile towards the Alliance. He's not any better than Garrosh.

>>53964888
>>53964795

Reminder that we could have avoided the garbage now if Varian let Thrall kill Garrosh.

>>53966392

The Lich King being a fusion of Arthas and Ner'zhul. Among other cases.

>>53967508

The Lore from WC3 to early WoW didn't a hard line between Dalaran Magic and Demon Magic

>>53969330

>Garithos is just a strawman there to make the Blood Elves hostile towards the Alliance. He's not any better than Garrosh.

He is bettter because its depthlessly funny on some level how obvious of a strawman he was. Garrosh went through several flavors of retarded and had plenty of chances of development but in the end nothing stuck.

>>53969330
>Reminder that we could have avoided the garbage now if Varian let Thrall kill Garrosh.
It was the pandas who insisted on the trial. Varian only stayed Thrall's hand because he wanted to kill Garrosh himself.

Reminder that according to the War Crimes novel, Garrosh had absolutely no regrets about what he did and would gladly do it all again. Also, the Celestials were going to declare Garrosh not guilty before the trial even began, because forgiveness is the greatest revenge.

>>53969330
>The Forsaken being playable was a mistake.

Sylvanas was a mistake. Everything would have been fine if she blew away with the wind. Or was never raised.

>>53969476
The problem with that is that Sylvanas is the glue holding the Forsaken together. Without her asserting her free will, the Forsaken would've never asserted their free will.

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>>53969501

>>53969501

Then have her die or some other character take her place. Its so tiresome to see all the waifufaggots defending the forsaken because of sylvanas.

Putress would have been ten times the leader.

>>53969463
Not declare him Not Guilty, but they WERE going to commute his sentence from the Death penalty to Life imprisonment.

>>53969463

>War Crimes novel

Please stop triggering me I'm trying to forgot.

Everything about that novel is fuckinng retarded on so many levels

>>53969619
Putress also wanted genocide against all living races and was being strung along by a dreadlord.

>>53967350
Wasn't that because the Horde didn't have time to throw their full military might at the Gurubashi? The Gurubashi were still reeling from the pounding Medivh gave them, which made Stormwind the greatest threat to the Horde.

>>53969619
The only character that would've been a decent leader was Nathanos. I said would've because they ruined him in Legion, turning him in a mustache-twirling retard that makes stupid snarky remarks and is obviously bedding Sylv.

Where's Jaina?

>>53971545

Being prepped to be a raid boss.

>>53971545
she's a dreadlord now

>>53971545

Dead in Thralls arms, causing him to come to his senses and lead the horde to better things.

Oh wait. Nevermind.

>>53968781
they literally are. If Lei Shen had won, the Curse of Flesh would have been eradicated and the world would finally know peace.

>>53969463
>implying there was anything one could regret
Best warchief ever

>>53971728

>The Horde Dindu Nuffin Poster

>>53971764
Ostracizing the trolls and tauren - the orcs' two closest allies - was pretty bad.

>>53968429
didn't we learn that all the titans were dead in Pandaria? Obviously you can't directly jump to "Sargeras killed them all" but it wasn't entirely unexpected

>>53971856
the orcs are actually also tianforged
>tfw no misunderstanding where Lei Shen initially enslaves them but then realizes that they're a product of Aggramar's last great creation, and decurses them into glorious never-before-seen stone bodies

>>53945912
Only two of them are girls.

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>>53943453
>tfw alexstrasza's death is going to be really shitty and they'll just give us a raid mechanic where she helps us on the final boss like ysera

also since kalec could become the new blue aspect why hasn't there been a new greenie announced? they probably just don't care i guess

>>53972728

Dragons all lost their power at the end of cata. Technically they are no longer aspects.

>>53972784
What power, though? It seems like they can still fly around and breathe fire and clearly Ysera has some power over the dream since even while dead she can influence our fight with Xavius.

Although that really brings up what Aspects are other than leaders/figureheads of their flight, and whether it really matters whether there is one or not any more.

Still, rip Ysera.

>>53972784
Correct. The dragons willingly depowered themselves in order to render Deathwing vulnerable back at the end of Cataclysm. The dragons are no longer aspects, just immensely powerful beings. They are also all sterile now.

>>53972859
The dragons were appointed by the Titans to keep watch over core concepts of Azeroth, like Life, Magic, Nature, Time and Earth. Strictly speaking, they are divinely-appointed guardians.

>>53972914
they were appointed by some of the titan keepers against the direct wishes of the Prime Designate Odyn. Considering all the shit Deathwing did after, and how little the other Aspects did to make up for it. He was obviously in the right

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>>53960590
>It's never been explained why Night Elves hate Orcs, despite them have a mutual respect for one another at the end of WC3.

They wanted to split up the Horde/Kalimdor and Alliance/ Eastern Kingdoms mindset and try to incite faction conflict. Same reason Draenei landed next to Darnassus and the Blood Elves went Horde.

>Stormwind somehow not only had enough people to rebuild itself after being sacked and burned to the ground, but also had the political clout to do it, while also fielding one of the largest military powers in the game

Blizz is obsessed with Human vs.Orc narrative to the point of autism. That's how SW can with 'Rule of Cool' shit out as many soldiers/money/resources as needed for the Narrative. Even when Ironforge never got sacked or lost any of its factories.

>Forsaken ally themselves with the Horde to get help to combat the Scarlet Crusade. Orcs, Trolls, and Tauren never send even a single troop to aid in this, meaning that the Forsaken allied with the Horde for absolutely no reason.

See point #1. Same thing.

>Humans and Gnomes could inexplicably be mages and warlocks, despite the fact that Magic is a closely guarded secret that Dalaran, a city that's canonically thousands of miles away and sealed off by an impenetrable arcane barrier, outright refused to share magic with outside parties. Humans were also never warlocks and neither were Gnomes, and Mages didn't you "fire" magic as it was considered to be too close to fel, yet there's a whole spec centered around it.

MMO's tend to water down established lore for the masses. See ESO for example.

>>53972914
Right, I suppose my question is what does this actually entail, since it seems like they still have these abilities? They just aren't immortal and aren't as strong, which seems like an excuse to be able to kill them off.

Clearly the Bronzes are still able to control time fine, per the Chromie scenario, Ysera is able to interact with the Dream fine, per Emerald Nightmare, Kalec is still super magic but I suppose that could just be through natural skill.

My point is that although we're told they're no longer Aspects they haven't really shown any big change, so why even do it?

>>53973230

Blizzard hires great artists and hack writers.

>>53971856
>genociding humies is wrong
They're the literal runt of the litter of the titan races m8

>>53965656
Let's also remember a puny warrior wounded Warcraft Satan

>>53950381
Id resub if this happened.

>>53952913
>dragon slayer
Fuck yeah that shit was intense

>>53973806

>MMO Champion

>>53974443

>Knaak Writing

>>53973030

> Same reason Draenei landed next to Darnassus and the Blood Elves went Horde.

They went Horde to raise its playerbase.

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Is it true that lorewise, paladins are just stronger priests?

>>53974934
they're priests that decided to get swole to be better at killing bad guys

>>53974934
Paladins are just more fervent in their pursuit of the Light than priests. Priests are moral centers and guides, while paladins are the sword of their faith.

>>53972989
>>53972914
>>53972859

Reminder that the Dragonflights are garbage put in by Knaak who have never worked in lore from WC3 onward.

>>53975221
Borrowed from Dragonlance imo.

>Chronicle mentions that the universe was formed by the clashing forces of light and darkness, which made the universe a place of never-ending conflict.
>The constant retcons were the setting fighting against itself
Pottery

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Why dont they go back to basics and focus on Horde vs Alliance in an ever changing campaign that redraws the borders? Whats the point of Horde vs Alliance anymore?

>>53976671
>Whats the point of Horde vs Alliance anymore?
pleasing PvP fags

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>>53976671
>Why dont they go back to basics and focus on Horde vs Alliance


They tried that in Cata and Mists, and failed. You can't have a total war in a game where Status Quo is God.

Face it, PvP was an afterthought in WoW, and will never amount to anything more than one.

>>53976671

> Whats the point of Horde vs Alliance anymore?

>impying it had a point after WC3

>>53947904
I'm honestly failing to see the connection between this post and mine. Yes Sargy wants to kill the planet, and that is apparently something he needs to kill everything else before doing- so why is he fighting every civilised power at once in piecemeal conventional warfare?

We also know Azeroth is not capable of shrugging off corruption, it took some of the most powerful pallies a good deal of time to begin un-fucking the plaguelands, and Fel corruption is at least as ruinous as the plague. Are they gonna build new light's hopes on every farm and freshwater source? defend it against infernals primed to crash and explode just to deny us production?

Illidon't is doing some stupid things. But if time where any kind of factor then his position would be a little better. Imagine for a moment- and forgive me, but imagine ME3, how many stunning victories did you achieve there? With the legion we should be holding positions at an unsustainable cost of lives. The closest to this we've seen is EN, where we lost a depowered aspect and a few druids to completely shut down the nightmare

>>53977355
>Illidon't is doing some stupid things. But if time where any kind of factor then his position would be a little better. Imagine for a moment- and forgive me, but imagine ME3, how many stunning victories did you achieve there? With the legion we should be holding positions at an unsustainable cost of lives. The closest to this we've seen is EN, where we lost a depowered aspect and a few druids to completely shut down the nightmare
Illidan says this after you kill the Avatar of Sargeras and chase Kil'jaeden out of the Tomb. It's either follow him and hope we win, or seal the portal and postpone the Legion's invasion until an unknown later date, where Illidan, Khadgar, Maiev, and us might not even be alive to save Azeroth

>>53977108
>and failed
What do you mean?

>>53977628
Right. now imagine being told this when every week costs you more farmland, more water. You're on war rations and the window for being able to "win' AND recover afterwards is getting smaller and smaller.

Illidon's actions right now seem reckless to the point of insanity because there's just not that much the legion is doing to threaten us. We could surrender the broken isles to them, withdraw and hold them while we recovered. I want to stop feeling this safety. I want to honestly believe that the idiot "Nice Guy" cuck brother has forced our hand because there's simply no time.

>>53977768

>MMO CHAMPION

Illidindu talk there.

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>>53977844
What even? I'm not up to date with /tg/ hate-memes

>>53977768
You're holding your standards too high for blizzard.

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>>53977655
At the end of Wrath and the start of Cataclysm, New developers took over as the older (better) ones moved to work on project Titan. Said D-team devs were fanboys of the the unrepentantly evil WC2 Horde but forgot that the Alliance back then were a bunch of barely organized, back-stabbing cunts who merely tolerated each other.

The Horde fans did not approve of Garrosh and his WC2 Horde, and Alliance fans hated being pigeonholed into a Lawful Stupid HFY overdrive (the Blue Warchief arc). Blizz tried destroying Theramore to provoke Blue to hate Red, but Blue instead blamed Blizz for playing favorites, and Red was asking what happened to the noble savages of WC3 that they joined and loved.

Add laughable PvP balancing and the Blizzard failing to convince fans that either faction had a chance of upsetting the balance, as well as the legion threat making PvP look like a total waste, they scrapped the Faction war and resumed the a lukewarm war between furries and undead wiafus.

>>53978007
>but Blue instead blamed Blizz for playing favorites, and Red was asking what happened to the noble savages of WC3 that they joined and loved.
and then Alliance players spent the next 3 expansions telling Horde players that being told to kill their own leaders and sack their capital was "Horde content" that deprived the Alliance of their own story

>>53978007
I never really got the garrosh hate, you would think that the horde would be proud of having a leader that was actually taking ground and having a no-bullshit stance towards alliance.

>>53978042
To be fair, the rebellion storyline was a good deal better than the breaking down faction leaders to make Varian the Blue Warchief so the devs can mirror horde storylines. Honestly, the factions poisoned a otherwise great expansion.
>>53978094
Garrosh undid all the progress thrall made and alienated non-orcs. He had no business being a warchief, he even admits it. But Thrall was too obsessed with the Hellscream bloodline to see reason.

>>53978094
Because hordefags dont want to be evil, they want to be the noble green alliance.

>>53970081

Yes. But people wouldnt defend him for being misunderstood because he has no tits.

>>53978094
What >>53978235 said. Garrosh was not a Warchief for all the Horde; he was a Warchief for the orcs alone (and whatever goblins he could pressgang into his service). He ostracized every Horde race that wasn't an orc (or goblin), threatening the entire organization to fall in on itself. Thrall may not be the keenest judge of character, but he knew the big picture and was willing to play ball with the Alliance if it meant the security of Azeroth.

>>53979083
And what >>53978877 said, to an extent. Horde PCs wanted to serve in Thrall's New Horde, the Warcraft 3 Horde. They didn't want to serve in Hellscream's Warcraft 2 Horde.

>>53978235
>Thrall was obsessed with the Hellscream line for some reason

I think this is a major part of why Garrosh was never accepted by the Horde, accepting Garrosh requires accepting that Thrall is supposed to be that fucking stupid, it's far easier to assume that the new writers are stupid and are just fucking up writing a previously established character

>>53978877
To be evil is not a issue... But to be autistic evil because the other faction want to be autistic heroic was not what I signed for. Metzan specific said that he wanted the Alliance to feel that they are The Good Guys!!! I can't describe on words how retard was this sounds.... Worse... To be the "good guys" was not even enough for the Alliance player base.... They canonically invaded Orgrimmar and won the war but could not even notice this because they were too occupied complaining about Horde favoritism.

Usually Horde players just wanted to be very different than humans. To experience a story with other values and other cultures... to be a "funny human" like a Dwarv or gnome was not enough.. and yeah.. NE are alien enough, but they are purple, for god sake....

>>53979436
Not to mention how since Vanilla Night Elves have consistently been made more and more human-like across every expansion

>>53974842
Still canon

>>53979436

>They canonically invaded Orgrimmar and won the war but could not even notice this because they were too occupied complaining about Horde favoritism.

Cause it was the most unstatisfying, weak ass shit possible.

>voljin shit talks everyone like he is in a position of power
>we capture ogrimmar
>he shit talks varian
>he goes 'p-play n-nice guys" and leaves
>none of the fucking NUMEROUS grievances of the alliance gets adressed
>we just leave and let the horde rebuild
>not even the forsaken get slapped down
>not even executing garrosh
>the entirety of war crimes


It was downright insulting. It speaks volumes on blizzards shitty writing, how they managed even taking the enemy capital an unfulfilling hollow victory.

>>53979521
>tfw no timeline where Sylvanas unleashes the plague on the Alliance troops in Orgrimmar

>>53979521
Would have been nice to see Thrall throw Garrosh down at Varian's feet. Declare "Do with him as you will" or something along those lines, then have Varian execute him like the criminal he was.

Oh, and have war reparations involving a whole lot of the disputed land in Arathi and Hillsbrad returned to the Alliance, that would be nice too

I say this as a Horde fan

>>53979368
Garrosh wanted to be warchief... He nearly killed Thrall for that before WotLK and become a pain on the ass on Horde politics in just a few months.. he was also famous and the orcs saw him as a potential successor. Thrall just did what everyone (the orcs at least) wanted... Choosing Caine for example, would result on the orcs being pissed, some internal strife and Garrosh would probably require a mokgra on the first opportunity where one of them would die (yeah.... The irony..),...

When garrosh noticed the shit he got he started to have second thoughts, and Thrall said that everything would be fine and he could just trust and listen the other wise leaders of the Horde.... That he nearly killed later.. but this is another story...

Despite that... Thrall is very smart regarding politics, the way he treated Sylvanas, choosing Voljin as a successor (that was really smart and even Varian noticed that).

>>53979531

That would be a pretty good way to bring down both the horde and the alliance on her. Remember how the allies alone sieged undercity in wotlk and if not for jaina teleporting them out they would have killed thrall here.

Hell, they already need a generous helping of author fiat to keep the combined argent/cenarion forces in plaguelands coming down on their plague brewing, reanimating, expanding asses. Fighting undead is what they do.

>>53979586
But you know what would make more sense?

Thrall remaining warchief, it would probably be more beneficial to the world, even the natural world, for him to remain in charge of the orcs rather than going off to do shaman shit alone and leaving someone divisive in charge

>>53979604
Ever since Cataclysm I've wanted a Forsaken civil war.

The new undead, fanatically loyal to Sylvanas, vs the old, those who remember being under the lich king and fear seeing their queen turning into their old tyrant

>>53979586
>Choosing the most qualified man in the horde to lead it would have pissed off the orcs

Good, the fucking swinekin need a hard lesson in not getting their way- this goes for horde players as well. Vol'jin died because horde bitched and moaned, held their breath and shit their pants because "muh orcs!" So the horde lost its only other viable leader and in its place you've got waifu bait. Now, curiously nobody is complaining bout sylvanas not being an orc.

the greenskins need to learn they are Only part of the horde, they don't get to flex majority rule anymore and still expect to achieve anything.

>>53979537

>Oh, and have war reparations involving a whole lot of the disputed land in Arathi and Hillsbrad returned to the Alliance, that would be nice too


Ironically.. I believe the only mention about a agreement is Tyrande talking about letting the orcs use ashenvale...

And I think there's no one left to live on Hillsbrand or arathi.. even the bg there don't make sense anymore...

>>53979485

>defending bad writing

>>53979652
Who the fuck bitched and moaned?

Everyone I talked to freaking loved Vol'jin, and was shocked when he was so unceremoniously swept under the rug in favor of the lich queen.

I suppose it's that weirdly huge group of horde edgelords who think that murdering innocents and permanently destroying land is "cool"

>>53943212
>>>53979586
>But you know what would make more sense?
>
>Thrall remaining warchief, it would probably be more beneficial to the world, even the natural world, for him to remain in charge of the orcs rather than going off to do shaman shit alone and leaving someone divisive in charge

I think it is canonical that Thrall was full of that warchief bullshit... Garrosh was a pain on the ass, he tried nearly everything to achieve peace (endured all kind of critics) and Varian started a war anyway.

Also the people that complained that he built their city on a fucking desert.. but these ones may be correct...

>>53979652
By the Green Jesus...

You really take your racism for a imaginary race to another level.

>>53979772
He built his city in the middle of a highly defensible valley with a port nearby and a river running through it, that's about as good as building a city in the desert gets

>>53979720
Remember earlier in the thread when somebody screamed

>MMO-CHAMPION

Well that's who I'm talking about here. Ever since the end of org forums there and across the offical site where in a state of semi-ongoing uproar about the insult of having a three-fingered, filthy troll as warchief. People claimed it should only ever go to an orc, as the title was formed during the first orcish horde. Players where more in favour of dragging saurfang senior into the role, the man who never wanted it, and might actually have refused- instead of vol'jin.

Now he or Cairne would have worked wonders. They might have made Thrall's noble savage dream a reality. Instead the non-orc is replaced with the next best thing. Tits

>>53979476

> Not to mention how since Vanilla Night Elves have consistently been made more and more human-like across every expansion

They even designed out the gender roles in NE society where women were Sentinels and men Druids.

>>53979772

They build in the city in the desert because they LIKED the desert, it reminded them to draenor.

>>53979675

> I believe the only mention about a agreement is Tyrande talking about letting the orcs use ashenvale...

Which isnt even neutral, its a retardedly huge concession for nothing. Why negotiate, they owned their fucking CAPITAL!

>>53979823
Well, to be fair, Saurfang senior may have refused, and may not have wanted the position, but it's hard to deny that he'd do a good job of it

He's certainly better suited for the role than Sylvanas, who we probably should have killed two expansions ago

>>53979862
True. But Vol'jin or a cow would have felt more comfortable with the role. Besides, aint saurfang basically done with the horde as a whole after ICC? I can't source this or guess its accuracy, but I vaguely remember hearing or reading somewhere that the death and re-death of his son pushed him to the fringe of the horde. still loyal but no Longer willing to put himself out there for it so much.

>>53979860
Thrall clams it is also penance. A harsh and mostly lifeless land is all they deserve to wring a living out of. This can also be skewed to mean he didn't want his people going soft. But resources out in durotar are scare as fuck and that was a big part of Garrosh's platform. He was going to take what the elves would sooner see them die then share

>>53979851
Well that was obviously just to allow players to play male night elf warriors and priests and female night elf druids. It was a mechanical decision, not a lore decision

>>53979860
>They build in the city in the desert because they LIKED the desert, it reminded them to draenor.
that got mostly retconned. Before the Horde formed, most orcs lived in either dense jungle or grasslands. Only the Blackrocks and the unnamed clan that Gul'dan destroyed lived in a desert before Tanaan Jungle and Faraholn were destroyed by the Dark Portal and Kael'thas

>>53979909
A bugbear of mine. These decisions and more hold down lore and rape it. But everyone STILL draws some impossible line at draenei warlocks. So many other idiotic things are handwaved by "game mechanics" but THIS is the one thing nobody seems willing to budge on?

>t.triggered

>>53979922
Why must the writers destroy everything good about WC3?

>>53979860

The Alliance are cucks.

>>53979862

Reminder that the Horde having so few options for Warchiefs is bad worldbuilding. It's like how War Crimes insisted on having the faction rulers attend Garrosh's trial even though they should have plenty of subordinates to handle it.

>>53979928
Why draenei warlocks?

Not saying that some don't exist in-universe, but none of them are loyal to Velen, or really could be loyal to Velen.

The only race/class combo I can think of that would be harder to justify would be gnome druids

>>53979971
>The only race/class combo I can think of that would be harder to justify would be gnome druids
tauren rogues

>>53979934

I honestly suspect Blizzard (or just Metzen and Co.) regretted WarCraft 3 outside of Arthas, Thrall, and Illidan. That would adress things like Jaina's use (going from a shill for the Wrynns to a strawman for the Wrynns), Alliance VS Horde still being around, etc.

>>53979898

>Thrall clams it is also penance. A harsh and mostly lifeless land is all they deserve to wring a living out of. This can also be skewed to mean he didn't want his people going soft.

Which is a cool piece of worldbuilding, it sounds a very orcish thing to do.

>But resources out in durotar are scare as fuck and that was a big part of Garrosh's platform. He was going to take what the elves would sooner see them die then share

So reckless expansionism and gibsmedat. Its not like, there were oodles of fertile, unclaimed land in Feralas, Un'goro, STV, or many others. No, they wanted to directly invade the land the elves considered holy because they wanted a gudfite, the lumber wasnt even the prime goal.

>>53979862

They had to sideline him because Saurfang was literally the PERFECT choice for warchief and the paragon of the honorable orcish warrior fantasy.

>long serving veteran of several wars
>decades of command experience
>even commanded alliance troops as the supreme commander of the Might of Kalimdor.
>old,levelheaded, wise and honorable
>actually shows regret for his actions and tries to actively atone for it, especially genociding the draenei
>one of the strongest and most skilled warriors alive
>unimpeachable position within the horde
>distrusts warlocks, undead and other unsavory shit
>fully committed to thralls dream for the shamanistic horde
>he doesnt hate the alliance
>even the alliance respects him
>beloved in game
>beloved by players

>>53979971

>The only race/class combo I can think of that would be harder to justify would be gnome druids


Tauren paladins.

>>53979928

>But everyone STILL draws some impossible line at draenei warlocks.

Cause a draenei warlock would be just your regular Legion eredar and would feel no need to stick around and be a playable character? Just like how Othar/Socrethar and his butt buddies defected in WoD.