Lich Depression

Whether or reality is a simulation doesn't matter to you individually. Like the opening scene of Annie Hall, how is that your problem?

Also it's more than likely an absolute certainty, not 50%. It's also a useless thought experiment.

>>53940039
Right, the laws of the universe break down into math, nothing special. For all intents and purposes, the universe is an advanced computer simulation, whether it was created by sentient beings or not.

So, after thousands of years, doesn't a Lich just feel like giving up? Realizing how pointless it all is?

What destroys more Liches?

Adventurers, or the Lich himself?

>>53940023
When nothing matters everything is possible.

Liches are hotblooded shonen protagonists that are super motivational to talk to.

>>53940023
Liches are by definition huge nerds obsessed with magic shit, now they don't get tired, hungry or feel pain and they can go full autist as hard as they want for all of time. Liches are having a fucking ball.

>>53940193
Or an Inevitable, provided that lich has that something special where he won't end himself.

>>53940023
>Neil deGrasse Tyson (and many others) give us a 50% chance that our universe is a computer simulation.
Citation needed.

Also, this is retarded. How would you even test the hypothesis that our universe is a simulation? By necessity, a simulated universe as detailed as our universe would have to be so detailed that it is effectively no different from a "real" universe.

>>53940298
But that can't last forever. Surely they would get bored, and contemplate existance.

>>53940023
OP is proof that our universe is not simulated.

Why would anyone want to simulate such a shit thread?

>>53940325
Just because it's a simulation doesn't make it any less real.

>How would you even test the hypothesis that our universe is a simulation?
Do some research on the subject. You can be sure many scientists are testing this as we speak.

>Our universe has an arbitrary universal speed limit
>The Universe breaks down into simple math
>Particles have distinct energy levels
>If you were to take a computer game and study it long enough, you would find that it's made up of basic math, and the same goes for the universe
>It's almost as if someone said "Let's make a universe, but cap the universal speed limit to 299,792,458 m/s so our computers can run it without a problem

There are plenty of reasons pointing to why our universe is a simulation, and scientists are doing research on it.

>>53940023
It's not that they're pursuing a goal for their existence. It's that they refuse to accept the inevitability of their death and that's what keeps them going. A lich can't be bored because he's in a never-ending fear of his own demise.

>>53940443
Pray tell how they are using the scientific method to determine if we are in a virtual reality

>>53940023
Lich are drive by obsessions. They have given up on everything else. There is no such thing as a depress lich unless that is their oppression. Also >>53940515

And the 50% is that God is real. 0% chance of any of this being real. 100% op is shit. 99.99% this thread hurt my head. 0.01% believe what you believe anon. Ganbatte. Faito. There are people who are so bored that they would watch people be boring for entertainment.

My current character is slowly heading down the path to lichdom, because he feels he's not strong enough to help people currently.
Road to hell is paved with good intentions and all that.

>>53940023
>I am depressed, the post
Just get over it already you pussy. You won't find any help on a Peruvian underwater basket-weaving forum.

>>53940327
That's when you get demiliches.

>>53940443
This reminds me of that episode of black mirror where the AI takes on the personality of the person it's implanted in to basically run the house

>>53940023
>Neil deGrasse Tyson (and many others) give us a 50% chance that our universe is a computer simulation.

lol the fuck

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>>53940023
>“We are asleep. Our life is like a dream. But in our better hours we wake up just enough to realise that we are dreaming.”

-Count von Wittgenstein

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>>53940023
>Neil deGrasse Tyson

ahahahahahaHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

>>53940023
>Sometimes I think about how pointless existence is.
Don't you have better stuff you really should be doing, or thinking about?

>How does a Lich not spiral into crippling depression?
The same way, that normal humans do. By realizing that even if existence is pointless, you still have to get through it, and why not find or do something to make yourself happy while you do so. Sitting around and feeling sorry for yourself, or getting all depressed for no good reason is the actual pointless thing, regardless if you are gonna live to 70, or have been around for 7000 years.

In short, suck it up pal and find your bliss. Otherwise it will all really be pointless.

>>53940443
>>If you were to take a computer game and study it long enough, you would find that it's made up of basic math, and the same goes for the universe
This analogy is flawed. If we do exist inside a simulated universe, then we cannot draw any inferences about it based on computer programs that also exist inside the simulated universe. We have no reason to assume that the outside reality bears any resemblance to our simulated universe; indeed, why would someone want to simulate a universe that resembled their own? Isn't it more likely that someone with the technology to simulate a universe would simulate one with different rules in order to study it?

>>53940023
Liches are immune to the human frailties of mortal hearts.

>>53940783
There are around 10 billion galaxies that are observable universe alone, there are practically infinite possibilities.

>>53940783
Why would you want to study a simulation with different rules than your own universe? The whole point of creating and studying a simulation is to try to better understand your own universe. Creating something totally different in a simulation would beat the entire point unless it's purely recreational.

>>53940886
But then it means that their own universe runs on similar formulism to be simulation.

>>53940023
Why do you think liches hang out in forgoten tombs? Or are asleep until woken by dark magic?

They're literally too depressed to interact with reality. And put themselves to sleep for centuries at a time to escape their depression.

>>53940023
I'd honestly say most of them at this point don't really care. They have thousands of years to do whatever they enjoy the most and there is always more magical and other forms of knowledge.

>>53940443
I think the biggest issue with the simulation theory is why the fuck would someone simulating a universe allow the things inside the sim to realize? All it would take is some basic parameters to add in a "If attempt to see if a simulation then delete and redirect thoughts."

>>53940023
If I was a Lich, I'd probably invest in a 'Charm of Non-Overthinking'

>>53940023
Lich: "Ten centuries. One Thousand Years. I have seen no point to it all. No hope. No reason. The empire of today will be the ruins of tomorrow. The newlywed lovers will be nothing in a blink of an eye. All it is... is a cold, empty cycle."

Cleric: "If you were hoping to find the meaning of life, you could have done much better than to hang around in places of *death*."

And that's how our cleric convinced the lich to go on a world tour, using his magic to fix problems, ending with him destroying his phylactery, redeemed, and moving onto the lawful good afterlife of Ilmater in peace.

Fireballs and Holy Swords have nothing on the power of redemption.

>>53940023
> give us a 50% chance that our universe is a computer simulation.

That doesn't make sense at all. We have very little opacity of what another coherent universe would operate like. We have little information about a set "S" containing the infinity of possible coherent universal mechanics.

Saying 50% is literally worthless and useless because it's a bullshit number drawn from bullshit understanding of probability.

>>53940807
Universes are large systems that can include galaxies. The set of infinite coherent universal systems treats galaxies as a subset of a type, with endless number, of universe which produces observable galaxies.

>>53941592

You have a very anthrocentric view of the psychology, or lack thereof, of simulation generators.

The entire edifice of intelligence, in our universe, might be discarded for observing how different starting conditions affect the creation of obsidian in a particular chain of islands.

We might just be a procedurally generated simulation in a chain of endless numeration of simulations.

>>53940886
>The whole point of creating and studying a simulation is to try to better understand your own universe.

The whole point might be to satisfy some system of hedonics. Like aging wine. Age a simulation so that one can jack in and engage in war and rapine on a universal scale. Or so that one can jack in and get aroused by magma flows.

>>53940023
You fool, if the universe, and life is pointless and meaningless, then it is up to us beings that can perceive the universe to make one. Instead of an empty void, think of it as a blank canvas.

Now Liches, if they have enough WIS, would have arrived at this conclusion, and filled the meaninglessness with their own meaning. Whether it be spreading undeath so that everyone could see his point of view, or teaching magic to rural kids for the hell of it, or saving the world when it needs saving - that's up for the individual to make.
Have you made your life meaningful?

You have to understand that just becoming a good enough spellcaster takes a lot of work, which in turn requires an ambitious or driven character. Becoming a lich is a means to an end, the same way you use a car: sure, you probably like driving, but you really just want to move around the world more freely.

Beyond that? It depends on the character.

Another thing to note that freedom at its core is about having a spark of inspiration within you and living with it within the void of the cosmos, full of possibilities. That's why couch philosophers like you will always be miserable, you're looking for an external source of irrefutable reason and morality while there is none. Everything is temporary, you are the only constant in your life, and at some point you're gonna have to get off your ass and do what you want. Just don't blame the cops later on if you swing that way.

>>53940023
>They probably have thousands of years to think about these things far greater than I have
And thousands of years to come to terms with it. At worst they end up like Camus, who believed the only philosophical question worth asking and answering was "why not kill yourself?".

>>53940325
>How would you even test the hypothesis that our universe is a simulation?
I can't say I know for sure what OP is talking about, but I think it's based on an extrapolation of the observer effect (whether or not something is observed dictates whether or not certain things happen on a quantum level (like in the Schrödinger's Cat example)), which has led some to believe that the entire universe is some kind of simulation observed by a "super observer" who observes everything that happens in the universe and is a neccessity for certain things to happen.

>>53941802
>might be discarded for observing how different starting conditions affect the creation of obsidian in a particular chain of islands.

That would be far easier done in another way. Pretty much in general any civilization with a ability to simulate a universe is likely working on all kinds of shit. Testing how the past could have went or seeing the theoreticals of the formation of the universe is far more likely then planetary scale stuff. My main point is trying to prove you are in a sim or not is pointless. Because the people who control it are effectively god and capable of manipulating the results you get. Making pretty much any proof unreliable.

>>53942013
>Have you made your life meaningful?

The better question is Can you make your life meaningful? People can bullshit that they have a meaningful life all they want but objectively can they prove it?

>>53942183
>but I think it's based on an extrapolation of the observer effect

It's more based around the idea that in billions of years would one group ever have the ability to do so? And if so given how many simulations we run what is the probability that that any simulation over billions of years wouldn't include a group of humans? theoretically speaking there is only a few true universe for every couple billion simulations. So the odds aren't very good.

>>53942374
>That would be far easier done in another way.

You're making assumptions about energy based on our system of universal mechanics.

What is "easy" might be far different in a higher-order universe.

>Pretty much in general any civilization with a ability to simulate a universe is likely working on all kinds of shit

You're assuming simulation generators need a "civilization". Of humans.

Hell, there's a set of universes with infinite range of starting conditions and "purposes" created solely by Boltzmann Brains. Or by the sensible analogy of such brains in the higher level system.

>>53942374
>Can you make your life meaningful?
Well yeah, of course you can. Plenty of people had. Stuff like advancing science, helping others, spreading terror, getting more cash money, sticking it up to The Man, sitting around enjoying all the experiences of life, plain old survival, just to state a few. Your life's meaning can only be found by you, and if you deem it be full of nothing, then so be it. But remember that it's because you chose to fill it with nothing.

Life's a sandbox game where you type in your achievements, and they work.

>>53942597
Oh and also if you want to say that it's not objectively proven, well, it can't. Regarding the meaning of life, it's fully subjective.

>>53940327
Then they found their own plane somewhere or play weird tricks on adventurers.

>>53940023
Because only children and their mental equivalents are seriously depressed about the fundamentally purposeless nature of existence.

>>53942735
Hedonism and self-satisfaction are the true patrician choices.

>>53942013
>if they have enough WIS
Ugh, DnD is so fucking disgusting, to both mechanically abstract that in such a vulgar way and to convince its players to think in those terms. Really does mimic some kind of brain damage.

>>53942744
I mean, you don't have choices, but sure, whatever you say, champ.

>>53940115
Math is an abstraction of the world, not the other way around.
Math not accurately describing the world would require the world not be internally consistent.

And maybe I'm inexperienced, but I've /never/ seen evidence to that effect.

>>53942759
You could worry about shit and be unhappy about everything. Stewing in one's own ideological shit is a choice, not a predetermined outcome.

>>53942856
Nah, it's either totally determined by a mechanistic cosmos or it's totally arbitrary. Either way it's out of your hands. All your thoughts are as dependent on causality as your actions and the world around you.

>>53942886
>Either way it's out of your hands.
Regardless of whether that's correct, believing that drastically reduces your chances of being successful or productive.

>>53942374
Listen up you dumb cunt, you can't objectively prove anything as objectivism is from outside interference. The only people who can objectively prove something or people who have outlived you and whom you cannot give any subjective experience toward.

Anything other than something that takes place when you were long fucking dead cannot be objectively Quantified as you yourself are a subjective being, you automatically poison any fucking choices ever made.

This is why the death of the author is a very real thing.

>>53942747
Joke's on you tho, I have never played DnD whatsoever
>tfw want to play ttrpgs but no group in your area

>>53942966
That makes you even worse.

Play online you fucking NARPfag swine.

I had the concept of a Lich who created a spell that would transport his mind into a random human when his body was destroyed, taking it over and slowly changing it into his old self.
The problem was that he himself couldn't undo the spell, and when he decided he wanted to end gis unlife (tired of dieing over and over again) the only conceivable method to end it all was to make sure there was not a single body left he could be transported into.
Would make one hell of a reoccurring villain.

>>53940023
>Neil deGrasse Tyson
Literally who gives a crap about opinions of some PR`d """"scientist""""

>>53943299
He couldn't just go to the Plane of Positive Energy and be instantly annihilated?

>>53940023
>How does a Lich not spiral into crippling depression?

i prefer to think of undead as so far removed from normal living existence that things like emotions and psychological problems just don't apply to them anymore

Real answer, if you read Van Richtens guide to liches, he notes that liches are generally immune to the mental degradation and insanity that vampires and other forms of intelligent undead gradually undergo over the centuries. Something inherent in their creation fixes them in place, mentally and spiritually speaking, so they never perish or diminish unless destroyed.

>>53942597
>>53942610
If I could actually pick what I found meaningful in life, I think I'd pick something really easy, like chewing gum or lying down. (As meaning is subjective, there is no sensible way to claim that these choices are inferior to any others.) That way, I would be nearly guaranteed to lead a fulfilling life.

However, I can't seem to do this. And I don't see anyone else doing it, either. The people who spend their lives doing trivial stuff don't seem to have chosen to find meaning in it; often, they don't seem to find meaning in trivial stuff at all.

I believe this casts some doubt on the notion that we decide what is meaningful in our lives. But if we reject that assertion, and also reject the idea that meaning exists in some extrinsic capacity-- that it's an attribute of the universe-- what then? We could assume that humans make some choices, but are barred, neurologically or otherwise, from making other choices; in this case, we'd get to decide what we do about something we think is meaningful, but don't get to decide what is meaningful in the first place. Of course, in this case, the allocation of meaning isn't much different from a food craving.

>>53940023
D&D has gone out of it's way to explain this recently but it's always been implied; Liches are irrevocably insane, one and all, with varying levels of mental stability.
This is a person who had to go to increasingly deranged lengths; the intelligence or faith or dedication and focus needed to become a Wizard or other potent spellcaster, the desire to prolong your existence so strongly that you are willing to commit multiple moral taboos just to continue existing even though most of the joys of existence would be denied to you utterly, and then the dedication needed to maintain that undead state over long periods of time.

Liches are all insane, with this madness simply taking different forms of mania among different liches with varying levels of emotional stability among them.

Moreover, it looks as if we are actually barred from making choices at all: the whole thing is illusory. Ultimately, you don't have a say in what happens to you or how you feel about it. Perhaps that renders the whole question moot: some people are going to feel "meaning" and some people aren't, and the concept is more or less void.

>>53942744
Hedonism and self-satisfaction are the easy choices. You can make them when things are going well. But what do you do when you have no realistic hope of having fun or achieving anything you would find satisfying? Under those circumstances, most people would feel better with an extrinsic source of meaning-- something beyond their own (unavoidable, inalterable) suffering.

>>53940807
Very large is not the same as infinite. In fact, because there is a finite amount of matter and energy in our universe, there are a finite number of ways in which they can interact, therefore the statement "There are infinite possibilities" is false. Or at least it may be, depending on what you mean by "possibilities".

Point is, you cannot use the conditions of this universe to prove that the universe is a simulation; what could you possibly use as a control sample?

There may be an arbitrarily large number of possible outcomes to any event, but some are so unlikely that they can be safely discarded. For instance, is possible that all of the oxygen on earth could transform into gold in the next six seconds.

>>53940023
I figure they usually find a hobby with which to pass the time, like achieving world domination, or bringing about the extinction of a sapient species they dislike for a petty reason, or painting tiny boats.

>>53943724

>However, I can't seem to do this

That's because you're a product of western society that fetishizes the individual and the accomplishments of the ego over anything else.

This with virulent marketing that pushes the idea you need to be rich, successful, have a model for a girlfriend and drive a sports car to be happy , social media which only shows you the happiest highlight reels of other people's lives and a capitalist economy that demands people constantly spend and blames misfortune on a person's actions rather than circumstance creates an environment where it feels as though life is meaningless unless we all become randian supermen.

If you take a glance towards eastern philosophy meaning is a choice that comes from within, not an external factor.

>>53943179
Tried, timezones are a bitch to follow.

>>53940023
>If life is an illusion, then I am no less an illusion.
>And being such, it is real to me.
>I eat, I drink, I fight, I love and I am content.

One of the most powerful liches in my setting is rather benign. He has outlived not only entire civilizations but even cultures and languages. Battling mortals is trivial and beyond pointless for him. He thinks in the spans of days and plans on the scale of centuries.

All he does now is follow the lives of his far off descendants in his bloodline and almost playfully torment a monastic order that swore to destroy him ages ago (he could annhilate them utterly if he could be bothered)

>>53940023
>What is their goal
To watch existence play out
>and WHY?!
Because it's something they don't know

>>53943737
Finally someone who has actually read up on what liches are. So many people on this board think they are just normal dudes who have performed a ritual to stop eating, drinking, sleeping, pissing and shitting, when that is the most superficial take on their insane existence.

When the Lich is made, he dies and his body goes through a very quick form of putrefaction where the flesh is mortified by negative energies, rotting and mummifying. Then his soul is pumped into that dead body, a body whose animus has been warped and corrupted irrevocably.

All liches are insane in some form, being fueled by a mania and obsession with a particular subject. Depression is basically the opposite of this. Their dead bodies lack the inhibitions usually placed upon them such that they eventually lose touch with their humanity, and the corrupted animus that moves their bodies subtly fills their souls with evil thoughts of death and suffering, beyond even what they did to become a lich in the first place.

In addition, in many bits of lore about liches, they must kill and feed on the souls of people, an act reserved for only the most depraved of infernal entities.

>>53944544
I could imagine seeing a lich who's mania came in the form of depression, it would just look nothing like a regular person's depression because unlike a regular person a lich is no longer truly psychologically capable of suicide.

>"Unlife is just so meaningless. I don't even know why people exist."
>"And I'll prove it's meaninglessness by KILLING ALL OF THEM TO MAKE A MOCKERY OF THEIR PATHETIC LIVES, AAAAHAHAHAHAHA!!"

>>53942183
>Schrödinger's Cat
Was Schrödinger pointing out that the entire idea was nonsensical. Kill yourself.

>>53940325
>How would you even test the hypothesis that our universe is a simulation?
Try to generate random numbers. Computers are really bad at it.

>>53940443
>The Universe breaks down into simple math
No it does not.
Math is based on the universe not the other way around.
Math is just a language used to describe universe not some magic shieet that some fags want it to be.

>>53943737
So then don't most Liches commit suicide at some point?

>>53943797
Just because you're dealing with a finite set doesn't mean there aren't infinite possibilities. There's an infinite set of points between any two points you choose, and an even more infinite set of curves which could connect those points - and that's just two variables.

>>53940313
>Maruts
>killing a lich

The toppest of keks. That thing has literally nothing that could be even potentially harmful to any lich that doesn't want to suicide-by-inevitable.

>>53940023
OP, but really, aren't you just quoting those awesome old screencaps about that lich which became owner of the world or something?

>>53945144
>>53945144
No, but I'm interested in seeing those

>>53945085
And that is exactly my point. Take my post in context with the one I was replying to; other used the number of galaxies in the visible universe to argue that "there are infinite possibilities". There may be an infinite number of points along any given line, but the universe is not infinite in space or in time. My point was that you cannot simply say "because infinity" and magically justify any supposition. As you say, there may be an infinite set of decimal values between one and two, but none of them are New Zealand.

Though, the phenomenon of infinite divisibility is more of an artefact of the way we do math than it is a meaningful statement about the universe. On paper, we can divide a geometric shape in half an infinite number of times; in reality, there is a point at which we can divide an object no further without dividing its constituent particles.

Now that I think about it, I think the simulation hypothesis may stem from a misunderstanding of how math works. Math isn't an inherent property of the universe, it's a thing we invented in order to describe how the universe works - in other words, the universe looks like a simulation because you're looking at it through the math we use to simulate it.

>>53945366
>in other words, the universe looks like a simulation because you're looking at it through the math we use to simulate it

This isn't some neckbeard couch-philosopher theory. This is a major topic in science which has millions of dollars spent on its research.

Please take 5 seconds to do a google search and maybe read an article about research in this field.

>>53945451
>This is a major topic in science which has millions of dollars spent on its research.
So is most bullshit nowadays.

>>53940345
You are probably the best philosopher of this half of the century not even memeing

>>53945451
If money spent on research is what separates quackery from serious scientific inquiry, then let me tell you about Ken Ham.

>>53942966
>Not making the group
All it takes is some friends anon

Relevant to simulated universe discussion
https://youtu.be/RrzmxmU8PxQ

How is the concept of a simulated universe different from the idea of a God?

>>53947021
A famous scientist on Twitter once said that it was plausible.

>>53947021
A simulated universe means you might be able to become God, which is much more fun to fantasize about.

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>>53947227
You might already become as god. Whether or not reality is 'simulated', it is just one of many possible realities.

>>53947227
Wouldn't the first of the meta-simulants, who necessarily has to exist, be omnipotent and thus God?

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>>53940443
>It's almost as if someone said "Let's make a universe, but cap the universal speed limit to 299,792,458 m/s so our computers can run it without a problem
You don't understand the first thing about physics or cosmology.

>>53940443
>>Our universe has an arbitrary universal speed limit
>>The Universe breaks down into simple math
>>Particles have distinct energy levels
If all of these things are evidence that our universe is a simulation, that implies that none of these things are true about the "real" universe. Namely,

>No universal speed limit means either no causality or no relativity, or both
>The universe does not break down into math, meaning the laws of physics are unknowable
>Particles do not have distinct energy levels, meaning matter and energy as we understand them do not exist

If this is what the universe is like, then how did they build a simulated universe given that everything we understand about computers and indeed simulation relies upon particles with distinct energy levels, math that can describe a universe, and effects always following causes?

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>>53940443

Pic related for why the entire theory is a massive waste of time.

Liches don't get sad. They get angry.

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>>53940115
>So, after thousands of years, doesn't a Lich just feel like giving up? Realizing how pointless it all is?

>Former Adventurer
>Raided tombs, amassed treasure, toppled world-ending, eldritch horrors
>Retired in wealth and glory
>Sought knowledge and power beyond death itself
>Attained Lich status to continue his work
>Now, with the power of the cosmos at his command, he looks to his peers
>Every loved one, dead. Every destination, changed. Every memory, fading with time
>He wants only to return to the days of wonder and adventure. When his life meant something to him and those around him
>Starts mucking about...
>Draws the attention of Adventurers
>He watches them from afar, learning their traits, mannerisms, hopes, and dreams
>Relives his old life through their experiences
>Despite being completely unnecessary, he shows up in person to "taunt" them
>It's the only way he feels part of a team anymore

>>53940023
To even consider becoming a lich, you would probably need to be capable of self actualisation in spite of such trivialities. To be powerful is to cease such petty things as 'Why?'. 'Why?' is the chain that holds one back from finding his own personal truth and enforcing it upon the universe.

A being like a lich, who willingly delved into amorality and traded his life for power and knowledge, would hardly be held back by a little existential crisis, right?

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>mfw he thinks the universe is a simulation
Oh, such a limited imagination.

>>53947923
The dreamer stirs, the world crumbles

Wake up, friends

Wake up and SEE

>>53940443
>the universe breaks down into simple math
You're fucking retarded.
There are incredibly large amounts of the world whose interactions are literally intractable in terms of math, and others whose mathematical expression is so incredibly complicated we have no idea if they even have solutions or not.

We can't even fucking predict a water wheel, much less model all of the universe in terms of simple math.

you're a fucking idiot and I hate popular science and everyone who claims to like science, like you

Stop fucking disgracing my profession

>>53945451
It's not real science. It's fucking stupid and its adherents and researchers are researching literal fucking metaphysics.

t. actual scientist

>>53940886
>I don't understand why anyone would ever research consequences of axioms or use proof by contradiction

>>53942183
That's
not
what
observation
means
you
fucking
philistine

I think immortals need long term projects or some kind of lofty goals to persue.

>>53947368
Not necessarily. Look at most computer programs as an analogy - when something's running, you're often locked out because making changes in the middle of running could glitch it up. So while the meta-simulants could create any reality through a program, they may not have the ability to edit it while it's in progress.

On the other hand, just because the program doesn't offer them that capacity doesn't mean something which arises from inside the program couldn't get access to that ability. If they did, though, then from the perspective of the simulation they truly would be omnipotent.

Hell, that might even be the purpose of the simulation - to artificial beings capable of recognizing and editing their own simulations. It'd be our equivalent of the intelligence test where a creature can recognize its own reflection and groom itself in it.

>>53949991
>Not necessarily. Look at most computer programs as an analogy - when something's running, you're often locked out because making changes in the middle of running could glitch it up
>TIL using the options menu of a program will potentially "glitch it up"

>>53950426
Think of it more like swapping mods in the middle of a TES savefile

>>53940023
>How does a Lich not spiral into crippling depression?
Their mental state is frozen, in a sense. They can obviously still learn and adapt, but in many ways their mental state is nearly static, allowing only for gradual change. So no, they don't spiral into depression. Their mental state is too rigid for that to happen.

>Wouldn't they become so jaded, so dulled to the pleasures of the universe?
That's where demiliches come from.

>>53949991
Wouldn't that creature (God) still be omnipotent as it designed the program to not be editable while in progress?

Analogous to Free will in the christian concept of God

>>53947021
>How is the concept of a simulated universe different from the idea of a God?
It comes with entirely different implications about a wide variety of things such as afterlife, morality, the meaning of life, et cetera et cetera. A god(or at least, God) means that there's some higher being with capabilities beyond those of mortals. A simulation means some kind of scientists working in some kind of laboratory.

>>53950486
Why, because you don't understand how computer programs work and that's the only analogy that doesn't completely obliterate your point?

>>53950426
The option menu is a user interface for interactive programs. Simulations aren't generally designed to be interactive, though. A closer analogy is running a large data analysis project, OCR, or something similar - where the computer is doing everything.Those will typically lock you out of making changes once you're in the process of running them, because it'll screw up everything they've done before. You want to make changes? Stop, change the settings, and start it again.

But hell, let's use the options menu as an example. It's a user interface with specific options programmed in, but there's plenty of things you can't do even in a program. Easiest example? You can't change or delete an object in use elsewhere. Why? Because it'll cause problems. So you take that option away.

>>53950642
They're omnipotent from the perspective of a prospective universe, but not a running universe. A truly omnipotent being would be able to alter a running universe. If they are incapable, or are capable but have disabled this capability in a way they cannot readily undo, then they are not omnipotent.

>>53942783
>Math is an abstraction of the world, not the other way around.
>Math not accurately describing the world would require the world not be internally consistent.

I wonder if Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem applies to the universe. As long as math accurately models the universe, you have a mapping from one to the other, and thus you probably could prove it does apply?

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>>53940023

Space.

When liches have had enough they usually just kill themselves either on purpose or via neglect, but most end up drifting off into space. Space offers a lot of unique opportunities, resources, and experiences for a lich that just can't be found on their home world.... Which, I almost might add: bored space liches are responsible for the vast majority of space, fantasy, magical, non-sense bullshit one can expect to find in space even as a 'modern' astronaut explorer type-person.

When a lich has had enough; they gather their resources and fuck off into space. Simple as that.

>>53952209
I like this idea, although I'm not sure how to use it in a way where it isn't just a gimmick.

>>53947736
stop making me feel things

>>53945221
I can't, for my own life, find those screencaps again, I was hoping some kind anon would come along and post them.
But I'm pretty sure the guy was playing Dominions 4 or something like that. The lich was pissed because he had killed off the entire world population, but somehow new paladins still showed up at his castle to try and kill him.

>>53945008
Are they? I mean there's no way to know whether it's "truly" random.

>>53940023
Probably ascendant, past petty thoughts like these

>>53941687
It amazes me how great posts often are ignored.

I always figured liches were the types of type-a personality gunners who would never stop to introspect long enough to even have thoughts that might lead to depression or an existential crisis. A super old lich would eventually lapse into a cycle of forgetting and relearning his (un)life's work over and over again indefinitely rather than stop and question why he was doing all of this in the first place.

>>53947736
Wow, right in the feels...

>>53942956
If the universe is deterministic, then that'd be the case irrespective of what he believed.

>>53962098
But if it isn't? It'll be a self-fulfilling prophecy either way, yes?
So yeah, stop believing that the universe is deterministic. If it is, you're already correct, but then what? And if it isn't, you believing that will just result in the same thing anyways, while you could achieve some other result by not believing that.

The trendy theory of life as a simulation has a sinister side. If life is but a simulation then it does not matter if I hurt you because none of it is real. I've just used my beliefs to give me carte blanc to do whatever I want.

Couple this with the zombie survival training that was popular a few years ago, and you've got a populace conditioned to kill their neighbors and friends without compunction. Now that conscription is too expensive, this is just the thing for countries to control their populations. By weeding out the young and simple, they make life better for all the nonparticipants, which is what the masses constantly clamor for under democratic governments.

>>53962724
>If life is but a simulation then it does not matter if I hurt you because none of it is real.

I never said it wasn't real. It's still "real" to us. If you hurt someone, does it matter to the universe? No. Is it going to matter to you once you've died? No. Is it going to matter to your victim once he's dead? No.

>>53963270
But if you know there's nothing behind those eyes, will you still care the same way you did before? Do you really care about an NPC in a video game, even one you're fond of, the same way as an actual person?

>>53940327
The game specifically says what happens when they get bored of it all.

>>53947976
WE WUZ CTHULHU N' SHIEET

>>53940039
It's a useless thought experiment, but I'm a strong advocate against it because I'm concerned people will become more nihilistic and less willing to help people in need around them.

At the same time, it's not like I've seen that happen anyways.

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"I have known many gods. He who denies them is as blind as he who trusts them too deeply. I seek not beyond death. It may be the blackness averred by the Nemedian skeptics, or Crom's realm of ice and cloud, or the snowy plains and vaulted halls of the Nordheimer's Valhalla. I know not, nor do I care. Let me live deep while I live; let me know the rich juices of red meat and stinging wine on my palate, the hot embrace of white arms, the mad exultation of battle when the blue blades flame and crimson, and I am content. Let teachers and priests and philosophers brood over questions of reality and illusion. I know this: if life is illusion, then I am no less an illusion, and being thus, the illusion is real to me. I live, I burn with life, I love, I slay, and am content." -Conan
Queen of the Black Coast by Robert E Howard

>>53963683
There's as much behind those eyes as are behind your own

>>53940023
>Neil deGrasse Tyson (and many others) give us a 50% chance that our universe is a computer simulation
>find a yes or no question
>say there's 50% chance one way or the other

Real science there.

>>53940023
>giving a shit about what a moron like Tyson says
>even then, thinking being in a "simulation" elaborate enough to simulate our universe is any less meaningful than being in a tangible universe would be
I strongly doubt you would ever have to worry about the trials a lich goes through, what with your 1 INT.

Anyway, the point of lichdom is to beat death. Beyond that, you find things to fill your days. If you took the unique, novel experiences of about 20 individuals living apart in ~100 year (the longest most humans can expect to live) increments and combined them you probably would get enough to fill at least a good ten lifetimes, and that's without considering the additional possibilities in a magical or modern world (eg videogames and other media offering limitless novelty). Boredom would be the primary concern, and there's many ways to attack that.

Beyond that, most people do not go to their death content with their fate. Most would prefer to have at least another year, any amount of extra time. There's even a phase almost everyone informed they're soon to die goes through where they contemplate what things they would or could trade for extra time. Considering that you're probably in your early 20s and having these thoughts, and you only rolled 1 INT, do you really think most of those people haven't either found some beautiful lie convincing enough to cling to indefinitely or seriously contemplated the fundamental meaninglessness of existence and the artificial nature of purpose? Overcoming that malaise is part of the human condition, and it's something that makes you stronger, not weaker, when you do. Lichdom is an indefinite amount of time to determine what exactly you want to be doing at a given time and then to actually do it.

>>53940023
The Lich is depressed because his gay husband left him 100 years ago.

>>53940023
>unironically subscribing to nihilism
https://youtu.be/f-wWBGo6a2w
https://youtu.be/hdrLQ7DpiWs
https://youtu.be/R_GPAl_q2QQ
https://youtu.be/Ifi5KkXig3s

The way I see it liches don't really begin to contemplate this kind of shit until they begin to experience madness, sort of like their own step in the five stages of death. Were I a capable gm or writer I would try to spin liches as cursed beings that have to constantly have something to work on or else they go mad. Imagine having to spend an eternity hopping between subjects, always hoping that someone somewhere is ahead either of you or has unearthed some ancient arcane tome you've never even heard of so that you can stave off losing everything you've ever learned to the madness. Sure it might not sound like a challenge to a human since shit gets discovered all the time, but bear in mind that a human has biological needs that can detract from study time whereas a lich does not. All the time for us could very well be an eternity to an entity with no need for rest.

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>>53940023
I had a story about a lich that I never got to put into a campaign. It's free for you guys if you want to use it.
>Celebrated playwright (just shy of being a Shakespeare-like figure) begins writing his magnum opus
>he's already quite old, but no one ever knows when the muse will strike
>tirelessly works on this project, but his health deteriorates with it, and he isn't even a fraction of the way done
>after careful deliberation, he decides to turn into a lich to finish the job.
>now has infinite time to work and perfect his play
>After a few centuries he manages to get his work published
>considering that nobody could live that long, people put two and two together
>church rapidly denounces and burns every copy they can find. But it's just too late
>the work is so good, so beautiful, and so literarily defying that the people absolutely love it.
>work survives illegally for the rest of time

Just to stay on topic, what do you think that lich would do for the rest of eternity? Everyone knows how depressed artists can get, and well...

The more and more macro you go with your perspective the more the overarching meaninglessness and uncaringness of the universe is evident, the true point of genius however is knowing and understanding that while intrinsically nothing you do matters you can still assign value to what you do. Which incidentally also explains why Litches can be extremely petty since they're ultimately devoting infinity time to vanity projects and other worldly fleeting pleasures because there really is nothing more.

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>>53979120
>not being a nihilist
Enjoying the false shackles of an ideology that is anybody's but your own?

>>53979454
It's a romantic plot, but, no offence, it's kind of incredible for me. "Pseudo-" authors who write in the style or tone of long-dead philosophers or poets are common throughout history, and people would most likely assume it was simply someone else writing under his name hundreds of years later in similar fashion.

>>53979631
>implying nihilism isn't already created by Nietszche
>implying one must adhere to one single ideology
>implying the universe means jack shit means you can deny other people to believe what they want to believe

getta loada dis guy

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>>53979631
>being an ideologue
It's possible to interact with the world without pigeonholing everything.
And despite proclaiming nihilism, you've shown belief in value/meaning coming from firsthand ideas.

>>53940023
You need projects Anon.

If you're going to live forever and have a massive fount of magical power at your disposal, why not just work on shit forever?

If I were a Lich I wouldn't invade human realms or piss people off. Seems like bad choice, people would just be looking for an excuse to kill me. Instead I would just hold up in my fortress doing SCIENCE until I figured out enough to become a God.

Well, that would be a concern on the first years. After that? I suppose their perception of time and reality around them would be different. Just like when we feel the passage of time when we are 4 year kiddos, when we are at 30 and when we are at 70.
You can't become an undead functional immortal thing without some of your perceptions being altered or screwed

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>>53940023
> Sometimes I think about how pointless existence is. Neil deGrasse Tyson (and many others) give us a 50% chance that our universe is a computer simulation.
WOW
STOP FUCKING POSTING ANYTIME, YOU WASTE OF QUBITS

DO YOU NOT FUCKING REALIZE THAT ______EVERY_____ REALITY IS NOTHING MORE THAN A SIMULATION?

SAYING "ABLOO ABLOO, NOTHING MATTERS BECAUSE OUR REALITY IS SIMULATION" IS FUCKING RETARDED BECAUSE IT LITERALLY DOESN'T MATTER AS LONG AS THE SIMULATION IN QUESTION IS PROPERLY SAND-BOXED
AND WHEN IT ISN'T PROPERLY SANDBOXED? THEN IT ISN'T A SIMULATION, BECAUSE YOU CAN INTERACT WITH THE "OUTSIDE" WORLD, YOU FUCKING MORON


"AS INWARD, SO OUTWARD" - THE NATURE OF REALITY BY DESIGN IS INFINITELY NESTING

JUST LIKE ONE IS CAPABLE OF CREATING A SERIES OF INFINITELY NESTING INWARD REALITIES, WHAT MAKES YOU FUCKING THINK THAT OUTWARD REALITIES AREN'T INFINTELY NESTING EITHER?

WHAT MAKES YOU THINK IT MATTERS?
YOU ARE LITERALLY GOING "SOUR GRAPES" ABOUT IT, EXCEPT YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW IF THE GRAPES ARE THERE, YOU ARE SIMPLY BITCHING LIKE A LITTLE CUNT

HOLY FUCKING SHIT, I'M MAD AS FUCK

>>53979656
Fair. Perhaps it would be discovered some other way

>>53945085
>There's an infinite set of points between any two points.
What's Planks length

>>53962098
People who believe that are observable less productive and less happy than people who don't.
>>53942956 is true regardless of whether >>53942886 is or is not.

>>53951959
Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem only holds for a fixed set of axioms.
If you find a physical phenomena you can't describe, you can always add a new axiom.

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As a physicist, this "our reallity is just a simulation" bullshit triggers me to no end. No scientist should ever spread that kind of metaphysical bullshit that is no different from plato's ideas just because it has some "scientific" words thrown there like "quantum computing"

>Neil deGrasse Tyson (and many others) give us a 50% chance that our universe is a computer simulation
So the retard just translated it to a simple yes or no question and, given that we have absolute no information and IT'S FUCKING IMPOSSIBLE TO PROVE OR DISPROVE he said: "shit is 50/50". QuantumSupercomputerGod bless statistics.

>the universe breaks down into simple math
No it doesn't. Our physical theories are just fucking aproximations to everything, they break apart from so many sides it's not even funny. We can't ever find (or rather, prove) a "true" theory, so stop glorifying fucking Physics to that point because it's just simple no real.

>>53940023
You need dedication, determination and sacrificing of your own humanity to become a lich.
They do that because they have greater purposes that they can't fullfil in a lifetime or are so extremely attached to their lives and would sacrifice everything to cheat death.
Not the kind of thing usually done by depressed people who thinks life is meaningless. Those people usually have a hard time dedicating themselves to anything.

>>53943861
>If you take a glance towards eastern philosophy

I bet you're one of those generic people who fetishize Eastern philosophies because you're in your rebeling traditional values phase. It's ok, we've all been there. However, you're wrong, Eastern philosophy doesn't do any better of a job bringing happiness to people either. They're idea of "radian supermen" is just an opposite unachievable ideal of stoic supermonks who have progressed beyond Earthly concerns. You could phrase it thag Western values emphasize guilt stemming from the failure to placate the super ego, and Eastern as a failure to placate the id. In reality mankind is meant to be unhappy and unsatisfied. There is no benefit to happiness from an evolutionary standpoint, those dissatisfied move forward, those satisfied stand still. Mankind has evolved a constant state of longing in order to survive and progress. The trick to happiness isn't reaching a goal or finding it within yourself, it's to continually distract yourself from the constant hunger and self doubt you feel in those moments when you find yourself alone with your thoughts.

>>53988618
>There is no benefit to happiness from an evolutionary standpoint,
Sure there is. That's exactly why we only have positive emotions when we (a) have a goal that we (b) see our self moving toward it.

>The trick to happiness isn't reaching a goal or
The trick to happiness is moving towards a goal.
If you ever reach it, get a new goal immediately.

>>53989277
>Sure there is. That's exactly why we only have positive emotions when we (a) have a goal that we (b) see our self advanced.

There is a difference fron positive emotions and lasting happiness, but I wasn't clear on that and you're right. Positive emotions are an even crueler thing, they give us a tiny glimpse at what it means to be happy, and then they fade. It's addictive and we continually seek out that feeling, but it never lasts.

>The trick to happiness is moving towards a goal.
Moving towards a goal rarely makes a person happy. Hopeful maybe, momentarily fulfilled, but really it's just a distraction from the status quo.

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>>53940443
>Our universe has an arbitrary universal speed limit
>The Universe breaks down into simple math
>Particles have distinct energy levels
>If you were to take a computer game and study it long enough, you would find that it's made up of basic math, and the same goes for the universe
>It's almost as if someone said "Let's make a universe, but cap the universal speed limit to 299,792,458 m/s so our computers can run it without a problem
Hmm. It's almost like the universe was Designed by an Intelligence of some kind.

>>53942610
So in other words, it doesn't exist, and you're bullshitting yourself.

>>53947021
It isn't.

>>53989380
>Moving towards a goal rarely makes a person happy.
Are you... using some obscure personal definition of happiness for confusion's sake??

>>53947021
Old Testament god is the idea that your surrounding are predictable, but chair is and our to get you.
You treat your surrounds with fear and respect, and you can work towards your objectives. "Look before you leap", essentially.

New Testament god is three parts, but the Holy Father is the idea that there's an underlying structure that guides your thought.
Which, these days, I only hear about when people mention brains being "hardwired."

Not sure about other religions.

>>53989530
The positive emotions you feel are not happiness, they feelings *of* happiness. Happiness is not an achievable state of existance, it's a momentary lapse in our baseline discontent.

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>>53989709

>>53989671
>chair is and our
chaotic and out

>>53940023
>Neil deGrasse Tyson
If you consider him an authority on pretty much anything you need to return to jeddit

>>53940023
but anon, undead are immune to morale effects.

>>53989435
Well, that's just like, your subjective viewpoint, anon.

>>53940443
Hardcore popular science atheists loop back around into being deists

Neat I guess

>>53947227
Becoming God is already part of the Mormon faith.

>>53979631
Existentialism is the way to go son.

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>>53940725
Fuckin Draco Malfoy wanna-be cuckspawn

>>53941687
>>53942013
>>53942374
>>53943724
>meaning
>meaning
>meaning
>meaning

The problem with these /tg/ discussions on whether life is "meaningful" or "meaningless" is YOU NEVER DEFINE WHAT YOU'RE REFERRING TO BY THE WORD "MEANING". It's like asking if someone wants an apple without clarifying if you mean a fruit or a phone. Depending on the language a box of "shite" could be stanky poo or delicious (yet still stanky) cheese.

So let's think of a few common definitions of "meaning":

> signifying something to someone
Well, sure, life does that to lots of people.

> that deep, fulfilled feeling you sometimes get, like at the end of a good novel
Sure, people feel that all the time.

> some ultimate purpose or intention we're all expected to carry out
If the universe has anything like that, it's being awful quiet about it.

> important or worthwhile quality
Well, maybe. Important to who? Worthwhile to who? Life certainly seems important to me.

> having some "transcendental" importance, being important in itself and not just important TO anyone.
I think this is just sloppy thinking. Being important in a vacuum doesn't make sense. What's important to one person is unimportant to another. So for instance Kepler's supernova seen in 1604 was VASTLY bigger and more physically significant than anything that will ever happeno on Earth, and yet to me it's far less important than smooching my girlfriend. And that's pretty great.

>>53995402
This! Meaning cannot exist alone all on its own. It needs observers to be meaningful. Ergo, if you're looking for the meaning of the universe, you'll find it, since there's you as the observer. But do not think that it is the objective truth, as the nature of meaning itself is purely subjective.

Let me tell you about a lich that exists in my world.

He's gone mad with boredom. And in his madness, he found joy in something simple: The prank.

However, having spent centuries as an undead monstrosity, he's really lost touch with his mortal side.

So that locust swarm that caused a famine that killed thousands upon thousands? IT'S JUST A PRANK BRO.

>>53992083
No, it isn't. According to your own viewpoint, what I said is objectively true.

I've just had enough of atheists who spew the "Create your own meaning" shit, but who also want to pretend they're less full of shit than anyone else, and who still want to make moral judgements even though their own worldview precludes the very existence of morality.

>>53995402
Nothing matters in the big picture. Nothing intrinsically has any meaning.

Meaning is something you as a conscious human confer onto something. The only things that matter are things you want to matter.

Through passion life gains meaning.

>>53995519
subjective != objective.
If you think it doesn't exist, it doesn't exist. If you think it exists, it exists. If I think it doesn't exist, it doesn't exist. If I think it exists, it exists. It's that simple. If it exists for me and not for you, then it exists for me and not for you.

But, if you think it doesn't exist, stop forcing other people to think it doesn't. It's up to the other person to define if it exists or not for them.

>>53995519
Morality, and to be more specific ethics, are a thing done between people. Gods and their supposed "universal" moralities were crafted by people, to effect other people. Atheists just recognize that moralities are subjective, excepting of course the few areas where they are universal to humanity and several species of intelligent animals.

>>53995475
I like this. Lots of things he could do. Make grandad leap out of the coffin and attack mourners. Its a prank! Animate the contents of a butchers shop at the market. It's a prank! Set an army of cancan skeletons against the King's armies. It's a prank!

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>>53955870
Hum?

>>53986184
You can't have a distance of 0.9 Plank's lenghts (maybe you can, but it's just impossible to use in any reasonable way as it can't be measured, I don't remember).
You can, however, have 1, or 1.1, or 1.01. There is nothing that says any distance has to be composed of a number of Plank's lengths. Therefore, you have an actual infinite number of possibilities placing only two atoms it the known universe,

>>53947271
dumb anime poster

>>53965707
was just about to post this. every time some one whines about the nature of the universe.

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>>53940325
Oh boy here we go

>simulation theory

you are like baby

mathematical universe theory is the new hotness

>>53949342
Are you going to keep throw around your insults or actually elaborate on that?

Mathematicians are fucking wizards, news at 11.
I stopped giving a fuck about metaphysics on a grand scale a LOOONG time ago.

>>53963270
In your butthurt you have just proved my point without knowing it.

Always look for convenient excuses like that just before someone's about to do something drastic. They can't circumvent their conscience without one. "Life's not real", "we're all just animals anyway", etc. They've been using tricks like this for eons to pit one group against another for the most shameful sorts of personal gain. Make sure you don't get fooled, OP.

I wanted to include a Lich that forgot a lot of his past, if he was a man or a woman or how he became a Lich in the first place. Walking around his fortress, looking up at statues and wondering if they were friend or foe. He's just been around for so many centuries that he can't remember it all.