Do you like making your players solve riddles and puzzles?

>>53886885
I don't see how anyone can find that "riddle" hard, even a caveman could do it.

>>53886885
Last night I pierced your sister's buns

>>53886912
ikr, everyone can see he bonded with his sister last night after taking her out to a burger joint.

>>53886885
In my experience I've found you need to be incredibly clear in describing the puzzle and to include diagrams too otherwise it's just too hard for the players to understand it.

>>53887172

When players fail to understand a puzzle and therefore fail to save it they are punished accordingly. Any confusion I take as their characters being confused.

Stupidity must be punished. Expect better.

>>53886885
>Last night I bond burger your sister
>Last night I james food your sister
>Last night I spy meal your sister
What?

>>53887208
>dm poorly explains riddle
>players are confused by dm's poor communication skills and autism
>dm punishes players

/tg/ everyone!

>>53886885
Ah the good ol' Remington Steele quarter pounder. That's one lucky lass

I do, but I always make sure to include some alternative solutions which will have some kind of cost, just in case they don't share my enthusiasm. The ol' Gordian Knot standby is always a good option.

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>>53886885
>Do you like making your players solve riddles and puzzles?
I view the entire adventure as a puzzle of sorts. If the plays just run up and attack everything, they probably won't stay alive for very long, especially if they aren't tactical in combat (so there's sort of a puzzle there too). But as far as proper puzzles and riddles go, I tend to stay away from them because if they players don't get them, that can be a problem. Even if getting past them just gets you to a bonus area of some sort, the players won't necessarily know that and might feel shitty anyway.

I think it's lazy and stupid unless puzzle arises natural from game's rules.
ie You see a giant door of dwarven steel, what equipment and spells are you going to use to break it? Good
Here's a sudoku, solve it - bad

>>53887208
Characters usually can see puzzle and can examine it in various ways. Players usually can't.

>>53886885
No, I like presenting them with complications and watching them come up with solutions for them.

>>53887341
>That pic
>Anti-plastic can't melt slitheen

>>53886885
you bondburged my sister?

>>53887439
Realistically anti-plastic should melt everything organic, probably.

Narratively, Slitheen are not plastic.

>>53887349
>Characters usually can see puzzle and can examine it in various ways. Players usually can't.

>Not painting a picture with words. What kinda shit tier dming is this.

Puzzles and riddles can be fun, but more often they're just a slog that grinds the game to a halt. I think the biggest issue with them in a tabletop setting is that too many GMs become really inflexible in terms of solving it. Every time I've seen it used it's just tv r players sitting around playing a game of "what am I thinking" and getting any answers that also work but that the GM didn't plan for shut down

>>53886885
Mhhmmm, anon... I only have a brother.

>>53886885
I still have no idea what the answer to this is.

>>53887223
Bong Americaned

>>53887765
Is he a brother (female)(male)?

>>53886885
Last Night I Brosnan Hamburger your sister?

>>53887843
Honestly?
He's six feet tall, broad-shouldered, barrel-chested and loves to sing while cooking.

>>53886885
fuck this image, every time it comes up I can't stop myself from giggling like a retard, everyone in the office is staring at me

Secretly pounded

>>53887898
I want to date your brother anon.

>>53887908
What kind of ignoramus calls a sandwich and "pounded"?

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>>53886885
Pierce Brosnan, who is in the image, was the 6th actor to play Bond. The burger in the image was the 9th burger on McDonald's menu back in 2007. = Last night, I 69'd your sister.

>>53886885
>man sandwiched

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>>53887959
I know. If that was their intention, they should have used something like pic related, or an image of a one-pound weight.

>>53887990
>The burger in the image was the 9th burger on McDonald's menu back in 2007.
I don't believe you. It looks like a random fucking burger.

>>53887990
FUCK IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW

>>53887959
Well, there are many places that call them quarter pound, third pound, or half pound burgers (depending on the size of the burger) so i could see "secret agent" and "half-pound burger" turning into "secretly pounded." Similarly it could be "silently pounded" from the suppressor on the pistol.

We all know the real answere is "Bond Burgered" though.

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>The sentinel looks down at the dwarven warrior and solemnly asks;
>"What is more dangerous to this world? Ignorance, or Apathy?"
>The dwarven warrior looks back up and bellows;
>"I don't know, and I don't give a shit!"

>>53888100
Not "James Beefed"?

>>53887990
Good job using GIS to find the Reddit article that makes this claim.

>>53886885
Last night, I took your sister out to a Bond movie and we stopped in McDonalds for a couple bites.

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>>53888287
>going to McDonald's after a movie
>not Steak 'n Shake

What's wrong with you?

>>53888441
As long as it's not Steak'n'Stir

>>53887898
I didn't know you were a ca/tg/irl, sis!

>>53887898
> He's six feet tall, broad-shouldered, barrel-chested and loves to sing while cooking.
I don't have a sister, though.

>>53886885
You James Bond Hamburger my sister? That spawns questions such as, how can one James Bond someone? How can one Hamburger someone? And lastly since when did I get a sister?

>>53887341
Why would you worstbest my sister, Anon? ;_;

>>53886885
I always try to make puzzles involve game mechanics, having random "locked doors" blocked by arbitrary riddles feels exceptionally videogamey, at the very least at that point it should be a passcode that needs to be learned. I also try to be open to alternate solutions because you can't plan for PC logic.

Logic puzzles can rot in he'll though. They're always based on misinterpretation of grammar or an exceptionally simple solution obscured by multiple objects to tract or outright tedium.

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>>53887990
Except that isn't a fucking Big Mac. There's no lettuce and Big Mac's don't use ketchup or mustard, but Thousand Island.

Pic related is a fucking Big Mac.

>Party arrives at the gate to the deeper parts of the dungeon
>Gatekeeper is a sphinx
>Sphinx asks the player to solve OP's pic
>Mage with highest INT comes forth and says:
>"Last night, I tuxedo-beefed your sister!"

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>>53888667
Don't be daft. It's obviously "Last night I twat doctored your sister."

Though if you wanted worst-best, it would look more like this picture here. Granted, Tom Baker and David Tennant are both acceptable substitutes for Patrick Troughton as they are in a three-way tie for best. Still, Christopher Eccleston is definitely on the high end of the Doctor scale, while Colin Baker is on the low end (I do, however, appreciate him more after listening to his audio stuff, where he does the best job out of all of 'em.)

>>53887990
While that could well be the case, if I had to lay money down, I'd bet on it being apocryphal. Regardless, it's clearly the message behind the Doctor pic remake: >>53887341

>>53888837
~TECKNICKALLY~ they use a custom Big Mac sauce that is very similar, but less tangy than Thousand Island dressing.

>>53886885
gun burgered?

>>53888877
>David Tennant above Christopher Eccleston

Seriously? Tennant is the worst of the new Doctors, and I'm including the Time War Doctor in that.

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>>53887956
You'll have to learn portuguese first.

>>53888524
Heh? I'm not. What gave you this idea? /tg/ didn't change me that much, although it can affect people in weird ways.

>>53888625
?

>>53889574
That's some genuinely dreadful taste.

9 > 10 = War >>>>12>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>11

Destiny is destiny.

>>53887662
>but more often they're just a slog that grinds the game to a halt
bingo

>>53889574
Tennant was fine.
He just had the misfortune to have the worst scripts

>>53886885
No, no one likes playing "guess what esoteric line of thinking the DM is using". Instead I just create complicated scenarios with lots of variables and opportunities for the players to be clever.

>>53889983
>>53889574
Tennant pretty much had either god tier episodes or "What the fuck am I watching" tier.
>weeping angels episode was his
>daleks and cybermen argument was his
>That really weird episode where the doctor became Jesus was his.

>>53886885
James Bond hamburger?

>>53886885
Bond #6

Meal #9

Not difficult.

>>53886885
Oh fuck. I get it now.
>Last night I bonded quartered and pounded your sister.

>>53890276
secretly (quarter)pounded

>>53890338
That's a painfully dumb riddle.
See >>53887260

>>53888877
Sylvester McCoy is mid tier. I don't know why you'd put him below Colin Baker even if you count audios (the best Big Finish story, Master, is a Seventh Doctor story after all).

Troughton is definitely top tier though, good taste there.

>liking doctor literally who
bunch of plebs

>>53887341
>You who who'd my sister?
>YOU MONSTER!

>>53890485
>liking something where the third and fourth iterations are the best

I can see why /tg/ has trouble with this concept.

>>53886885
I took a page out of my old DM's book.
I make up a riddle or puzzle, but don't worry about a solution. If the players figure out something that MAKES SENSE given the information I provide, then I say, "Yeah, you guys solved it!"

>>53886885
Not really. Generally it's annoying, coming up with riddles I'm not blatantly stealing from the internet takes too long to be worth it, and it's just testing the player instead of the character which is a bit immersion breaking.

The only riddle I really threw at my players was some half-assed one I thought up in the 10 minute drive to the game and didn't really have an answer.

Which was the point. They were going through the ancient testing grounds of a long extinct Paladin order to find some artifact said to be there somewhere. One of the "tests" involved being given the above riddle, while informed that a wrong answer would result in death. The trick is the Paladin spirit testing them (as he assumed they were new recruits sent there for testing and they were fine letting him believe that) wasn't looking for any specific answer. He was looking for them to give any sort of answer and stick by it, to reflect the possibility of Paladins being put in difficult situations that have no clear-cut or "good" answer, and that the job is more about making the best choice you can at the time and sticking with it, in spite of whatever consequences may happen.

It's important to come up with three solutions and be prepared for the players to find a fourth.

The best advice I ever heard on /tg/ for dming, and life, is that after a situation where the other party was confused or didn't understand what you wanted (ie- didn't get your puzzle) that you need to think "how could I have communicated better?" Don't focus on how dumb the players are or be annoyed that they didn't pay attending l attention. Think of ways you could have conveyed the information better. You can't go back in time, but you can do better in the future. Not that you did anything wrong- it's not about selfloathing or feeling like you fucked up. It's about improving and catering your future challenges to the party you're playing with. How do they think? What do they value?

Anyway, think about the puzzles your players failed at, the clues they missed, the lies they didn't sense motive on. What could you have done differently to make sure they got it?

>>53887349

Sometimes the puzzle is an abstraction, like combat. Things aren't always literal in the game. Like in d&d. You're not literally having that exact combat. There's a fight, and to determine the winner we cut to a mini game to see what happens. Like if we were to play a quick game of netrunner to see how your hacking goes, or one hand of poker to determine the entire tournament your character is playing in.

>>53890592
What if the answer to that is always that everyone just tunnel visioned on something that has no sense being looked at in the first place?

I mean, I'm running out of things to remove from the equation. Eventually I'm just going to have to say "You have now reached a puzzle encounter: Solve this puzzle". Which will probably just confuse everyone as they wonder where they are and why this is happening instead of getting it over with.

>>53889983
>He just had the misfortune to have the worst scripts
I don't know. 1st season was really weak and there really isn't a single episode in it that I can wholeheartedly recommend. Don't get me wrong, I quite like Eccleston and am a big enough fan that the coolness of Doctor Who carries me through the rough spots,* but it took a while for the show to find its feet.

>>53889574
I think there is an understandable tendency for folks to dislike Tennant due to how much fanboyism (and fangirlism) there is about him. But I think he did an outstanding job and is easily the best Doctor in New Who, which is saying something, because they've done a really good job finding good actors for the role. Yes, Matt Smith got a bit old by the end, but it's the way he was being written, and I still think he was a great pick. The only one I'm not sold on is Capaldi, and I can't render an objective opinion on him, because I really don't like what the show has become.

>>53890474
>Sylvester McCoy is mid tier.
He's far and away my least favorite. Back in the day, I actually gave up on Doctor Who during his reign and only went back and watched through it a dozen years later. Granted, that was more about the writing than him, but he certainly didn't help. I don't particularly care for Ace either.


*Until now, anyway. I've had to swear off it for the time being. I'll jump back in once Moffat's gone. It's too bad, because Moffat has real talent, and many of the best episodes of New Who were written by him, but somewhere along the line, the show got lost up its own ass. I suspect I'll eventually go back and watch the stuff I skipped like I did for the McCoy stuff.

>>53890592
>It's important to come up with three solutions and be prepared for the players to find a fourth.
I usually just do two (and prepare for a third), but otherwise, I'm right with you.

>>53891458
Yea, sort of exaggerated but that's the idea.

>>53891323
If they get tunnel visioned you need to tell them that or have it lead back. Ask yourself why they thought that was important, and why it wasn't. Come up with ways to reroute them.

You describe the town and mention the large church. It's just a description. They actually need to head to the school. But they visit the church instead.. There's nothing there, noting planned, it has nothing to do with the murders! But why can't there be a grieving mother praying? Maybe she tells the party that everything was fine that morning when she dropped her daughter off at school. She blames the school. The school knew what was going on. School school school.

After that if they don't head there, you need to move some clues around.

>>53890296
>check reddit
>assumes they're correct
>"This was easy guys"

>>53888757
>random "locked doors" blocked by arbitrary riddles feels exceptionally videogamey

Hah! You're not wrong, but this is definitely a case of bad (video) game designers stealing bad content from bad (rp) game designers because the shitty riddles have been around in rpgs since forever.

>>53891414
Got any hopes for the new showrunner? I haven't personally watched Broadchurch but I hear it's pretty good

>>53892187
>Got any hopes for the new showrunner?
I think Chibnall's stories for Doctor Who have been rather meh overall (42, Hungry Earth/Cold Blood, Dinosaurs on a Spaceship, The Power of Three), but Moffat wrote great episodes and ultimately disappointed me as a showrunner (even if he did start off strong), so I'd say it's hard to judge. I am hopeful in the sense that I'm so dissatisfied with the way the show is now that I quit watching it, so I've got very little to lose and am inclined to embrace change.

Broadchurch *is* pretty good, at least if you're into that kind of thing (which I partially am, though not like I'm into sci-fi).

>>53889753

9 > 12 > War > 11 > 10. That said, Tennant did have the fortune of having the best companion in the form of Donna Noble.

>>53889983

Eh, the problem is that I feel like some of the scripts were targeted to play up certain aspects of the actor rather than the character (i.e. his attractiveness). Compare Tennant's arcs to the other new Doctors, they kept throwing the whole "I'm in love with the Doctor" thing to Tennant (and to a lesser extent Matt Smith) and no-one else, and that reeks of leaning on the actor rather than the character.

>>53890233

Thing is though, you could do most of those scripts with other Doctors, because what made those episodes special wasn't the Doctor, it was the enemies. The Dalek/Cyberman argument in particular felt so natural because it seemed to spring from the personalities of those races, and again it had nothing to do with the Doctor in question.

I dont like giving them any scenario where there is only one possible answer, though I do like to make them think outside the box by putting them in clearly unfair situations.

>>53887959
What kind of ignoramus calls a burger a "sandwich"?

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>>53886885
I dont get that riddle... is the answer pierce pounder?

>>53889574
>Tennant is the worst of the new Doctors
Nah, that's easily Matt Smith, but I put the whole blame for that on Moffat for being a complete hack.

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>>53887223
Last night I 69'd your sister
>6th Bond
>9th item on dollar menu
What's my prize?

>>53896087
>Thing is though, you could do most of those scripts with other Doctors, because what made those episodes special wasn't the Doctor, it was the enemies.
This is true for all the best Doctor Who episodes.

>>53896482
>9th item on dollar menu
It isn't tho

>>53886885
>Last night I bad trigger discipline undercooked burger your sister?

>>53890296
Idiot

>>53896482
>dat logic
Found Batman.
Adam West didn't die, he is right here.
Justice is its own prize Batman.

>>53888477
underrated

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>>53889574
>>53896087
It's cool to hate on Tennant these days, like the reaction against a band that gets too big. I value this contrarian tendency as a counterbalance against mainstream bandwagonism / fanboyism, but I do think there is danger of overcorrection, and at a certain point, the countervailing force can rival the one it's reacting against, which somewhat diminishes its usefulness. In any case, I think that placing Tennant as the worst of the New Who Doctors is crazy, regardless of whatever movements of popular opinion are involved in the issue.

>>53896835
Eccelson just didn't get enough character development, he always feels a bit plain. Tennant or Smith generally seems to be whichever you started with. Capaldi has huge swings between episodes. In some he's a classic grouchy old man, in others he's riding tanks, playing electric guitar and wearing sonic fucking sunglasses.
So best capaldi > tennant = smith > eccelson >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> worst capaldi

>>53896835
>1st
>Weak
He's like the fourth best

>>53897002
Dude was constantly tripping over his lines. Sure, there were reasons for that, but it doesn't change the performance. Overall, he doesn't come across as natural. He comes across as an actor playing a role, which is exactly how you don't want to come across if you're an actor playing a role. He wasn't terrible or anything, and I don't dislike him like I dislike McCoy, but he's definitely a bit weak.

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>>53886885
>reddi/tg/ doesnt know how to bondburger stacies

>>53890546
but what was the riddle?

>>53898720
I wish I remembered. I wrote it on some scratch paper whenever I was waiting at a traffic light and tossed it when the game was over. I basically took whatever random "smart things" I thought of and jumbled together something that sounded like a riddle out of it.

>>53890533
This is the best way to do puzzles.
People aren't mindreaders. They aren't going to know the exact trains of thought you're going down when you think of something, and quite possibly never will, because they aren't you. What is logically connected to one person could well be only so for them and nobody else.

>>53886885
I am okay with it, and actually welcome the chance to shut down for a few minutes while players debate a puzzle and I can sort of relax, but I have a couple recurring issues with them.

One, several of my players don't like puzzles, so they end up left out, and while the other two love them, they cannot play nice together when trying to solve them. So puzzles often create slow and frustrating asides.

Two, I myself hate puzzles, mazes, and riddles of all kinds with the heat of a thousand suns, and have absolutely NO aptitude in solving them. This means I can't make up my own, am not able to effectively judge their difficulty, and sometimes present them in ways that make them more difficult to solve.

So I have had a lot of bad luck using them and have kind of eased off on them over the years.

>>53886939
No, no, no. He KILLED and ATE her.

>>53899998
So the only reason you are introducing something that annoys both you and half the party, a thing that you are deliberately making more obtuse is to get a bit of a break? Why not just get five minutes of 'GM time' instead? You'll get a bit of a break when you need it and the players will be able to use the time to either plan or, I don't know, go to the toilet or get something from the kitchen. It's a win-win as opposed to what you are doing with puzzles.

>>53896482
The knowledge that you're a grotesque enough human being to know which number is linked to which food item at McDonald's.

>>53886885
Last night I "Pierce Brosnan with a gun in a thoughtful pose" "sandwhich with too many ingredients" your sister?

>>53901706
what a waste

>>53901501
No, I was introducing them because half my group loves them. Puzzles don't annoy me at all as a GM, I just can't really judge whether they will be easy or super time consuming and difficult.

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>>53886885
No, puzzles/riddles a shit

The only difference between a puzzle/riddle, and all other obstacles the party must overcome, is that a riddle limits the number of possible answers to only the things you thought of. Which is entirely the opposite of the point of role-playing.

The party comes across a giant metal door blocking the tunnel. It's too heavy to force. How do they proceed?

A creative application of their abilities and the items they have on their person? A temporary retreat to acquire more resources or information, or to pursue an alternate route?

Or do they have to figure out that the runes on the door all spiral in a certain way, and if they twist three knobs in the right order and direction, then the spirals will align and a smaller door inside the main door will open, revealing a note upon which they must scribble in blood the the name of a thing that has different numbers of legs at different times of day?

Riddles are exactly the sort of thing role-playing is bad at. Heavily contingent on DM's imaginative and descriptive ability, heavily restrictive of the players' creativity and agency.

>>53896835

I want nu-who tumblrites to leave.

>>53896087
>Thing is though, you could do most of those scripts with other Doctors, because what made those episodes special wasn't the Doctor, it was the enemies

Pretty much, they wank off to the doctor way too much now anyway. There were some episodes that Tennant could act pretty well in, the Library with Donna is good, then a few episodes with the Master and then the Mars episode.

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>>53887990
"Easy Riddle"
>Don't like James Bond, Haven't eaten at a western McDonalds in about five years, much less was a regular.
Ooh, next do a riddle using the names of pro athletes and pop-stars. Yes! More shit laymen know but I don't.

>>53889753
Early 11 was great. Moff just kept trying to keep the character arcs going after they ended, then shackled him to Worst Companion.

>>53905231
Do tumblrites hate or love Tennant these days? I don't follow these things.

>>53906024
>Early 11 was great.
Agreed. I'd have him as top tier, but he didn't wear well. And while I think a lot of this is due to the writing, I think at least some of this comes down to the fact that the character wasn't as versatile as he could've been. Honestly, I have trouble figuring out where to put him because of all of this, especially as my getting sick of him towards the end gives me a knee jerk reaction against him even in his earlier episodes.

>then shackled him to Worst Companion.
Of New Who or all Who? Because if we're talking all Who, you're being much, much too harsh on her. Let us not forget Victoria or Dodo. Or Jo Grant. Or Tegan. Or Peri. Or Mel. Or...

>>53886885
Last night I pierced and pounded your sister.

>>53888477
If noone else will appreciate that comment anon, i will. Kek

>>53886885
Ah, the ancient "Last Night I Bond Burgered Your Sister" puzzle.

>>53887990
Man, I really wish someone developed a filter based on image content.

I would filter all the pepes and wojacks shitposters forever.

>>53906387
Agreed. I also think a lot of it came from him being written as more and more of a parody of himself as time went on. It's a common downfall in TV and movies - you have a great character, but when you try to capture what makes them great, you just overdo it and snuff it out.

>Of New Who or all Who?
Just New Who. I know she's got a lot of competition from the entire series, but so far there's nobody in New who even comes close to competing with her.

>>53906708
Same, although they'd just come up with new ones. If there's anything frogposters like more than beating a dead meme, it's trying to resurrect the corpse of that meme with minor variations.

>>53907563
Yeah but with a well designed algorythm you could feed it with a standard pepe image and it would detect any variation of it based on pixels color and distribution.

It would be more or less like iqdb.

>>53907550
>Just New Who. I know she's got a lot of competition from the entire series, but so far there's nobody in New who even comes close to competing with her.
I'm not sure about anybody else not coming close, but there's a decent argument for her being the worst. The thing is though, she's not actually bad. I think she was misused and the dynamic she had with the Doctor -- especially 12, who she weirdly overshadowed -- was flawed, but you can have a bad dynamic between two otherwise good characters. Mostly though, I think that New Who has done an exceptional job overall with the companions, something you can really see when you compare it to Classic Who. Don't get me wrong, there are things I definitely prefer about Classic Who, and there are some great companions in the mix with outstanding dynamics (Jamie and 2, and Leela and 4, for instance), but overall, the companions are of significantly lower caliber than in the new show.

So while I think Clara's impact on the show has been negative, and I would rather have had a different companion in her place, I don't actually think the character, herself, is honestly that bad. She didn't work, but under different circumstances, maybe she could have.

>I also think a lot of it came from him being written as more and more of a parody of himself as time went on
Yeah. He became more narrowly defined -- stuck in a rut. And the opposite needed to happen. When you first meet a character, you obviously don't know much about them, and it's only over time that they get fleshed out. 11 was great in the beginning but ultimately needed more meat on his bones to the point where I feel like he never was truly fleshed out. And I think that this was starting to be a problem in his second season, and not just his third (though obviously it was worst there).