What is wrong with Pathfinder players?

>>53876574
Imagine you're in a club, and there are other clubs but yours is the biggest. Your club gets so popular that even other clubs adopt some of the same practices of your club.

Then the organizers of your club announce that the club needs to be updated with new bylaws. And you think that's fine, because it'll be the same bylaws but tightened up a bit, right?

But it's not. They adopt a different set of rules and bylaws and tell you they're better than the ones you had. But some members of the club decide to start their own club, and proudly announce they're using the exact same rules and bylaws. You flock to them, with plenty of people from the old club, as new people start joining the "other" club. They're the enemy now. You know they are because when they say they have fun with their club, it makes you angry.

Skip ahead a couple years. It's obvious the people running your club have no idea what they're doing. But you're stuck in this club. You've been complaining so loudly about how awful every other club is that none of them will take you. So you stop questioning the people in charge of your club. You just accept whatever they say.

Lastly, a few more years down the line that club you started out in announces they're redoing their rules and bylaws again, and you feel a brief moment of hope. Then you see that they've put Mike Mearls in charge.

>>53876574
Is that image supposed to be indicative of a problem you're perceiving? Because it sounds like a rad character concept to me.

>>53876574
I would personally what is wrogn with you that you need to bash PF players os badly you made this thread, and 15 others like it in the past few days. Or is that months now? Oh, sorry., YEARS.

You hate a game SO MUCH you can't stop talking about it.

That's unhealthy, anon. Get help.

>>53876574
>wrong
But anon, that's a wonderful character concept.

>>53876828
fpbp
/thread

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>>53876574
You tell me.

Yeah, I don't see what's up with this one. Out of all the bullshit to call /pfg/ or /pgg/ on thats fucking benign.

>>53878963
>oral from a hydraggon
>Mary Sue shitpost

>>53878984
>REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE PLAY A STRAIGHT WHITE BROWN HAIRED FIGHTER REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Here's your (You)

>>53879000
One of these days I'm going to run a all-fighter, all-white, all-male, all-brown-haired group and it will be great.


Parties where everyone is the same class turn out surprisingly well IME.

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>>53879000

>that hyperbolically excessive defensiveness

Please, by all means, tell us about your character, anon. I'm sure she's very creative.

>>53879030
>REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

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>>53879033
We're waiting with bated breath, anon. Don't deny the world your creativity!

>>53876828
Pretty much this, except you forget the part where so many people in the club are used to managing the current bylaws and fuckups that they simply know how to navigate the system and get it to do what they want for the most part, and some people even find some charm with the club's general screwiness.

Going to another club and having to relearn all the hangups, the meta, the community... The investment might pay off in the long run, but short-term having fun it just seems like a slog, especially if the current club is anything to judge by. Not to mention that everyone else is always saying their club is better, so there's really no way to tell who's right until Joseph Smith comes in with his DMG made of solid gold and preaches about an otherwise decent club with a screwy development history that doesn't seem real, but is supposed to be utterly believed and to be honest I've completely lost what the subject matter was.

Also GURPS is probably Buddhism or Taoism or something.

Problem is that all those options (esp. races) mean they have to try harder and harder to differentiate themselves from each other. Case in point: FIRST fucking Pathfinder campaign I ran, out of six players only one played a core race, and only one played a core class. All of them wanted 3rd party bullshit which I nixed. I did allow some classes and shit that I shouldn't have. The SRD is a blessing but a fucking curse at the same time. They are incredibly vindictive about power curves and similar shit, will laugh at your build that you try to put together for consistency's sake and suggest you multiclass into eight different shit classes. Which is necessary for the builds, don't get me wrong.

I like 3.5. Pathfinder is okay. The system does produce the players, but holy shit does that go overboard with Pathfinder.

>>53879143
The gurps people are the accountants who exist outside of all laws due to legal loopholes.

>>53879219
No, they're not entirely outside of all laws, they just have to observe a couple different ones at any given time, as wells as the core mechanic and honestly bringing religion and morality into the mix was a bad idea because now the whole thing just seems so subjective that none of it really matters unless you're a good person and a good player just trying to have fun and relax in those momengs between the rest of your life happening.

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>what's the problem of this group of players all dedicated to one of the worst d20 systems ever conceived that is 3.5 d&d with a ton of unneeded stuff thrown ontop of it full of balance and gameplay problems and massive power creep made by people explicitly devoted to preserving all the flaws and issues of 3.5e because that adds to the experience and making new ones just makes that experience better so players can play anthropomorphic fox girls that are both supported by and officially canon by the developer's standards which includes harshly shutting down and criticizing anyone who criticizes their system or makes suggestions on fixing issues because fixing issues wouldn't be true to the spirit of 3.5e or the spirit of releasing 5,000 supplements with very similar content and power creep and lack of balance or testing at full price each?

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>>53876574
Here, have this post that I saved from a random 5e general thread. I'm certain that it's indicative of the whole community

>>53879437
>a shitpost vs thought out and very lengthy character backgrounds for lesbian kitsune cannibal ninjas

Which one is more autistic, anon

>>53879468
I don't particularly care, truth be told. I'm just interested in which one is more indicative of the community.

>>53879332
I don't disagree with you, but your alternative to "give money to Paizo for a shitty game" is literally "give money to WotC for a shitty game." You're aware that there are other options, right?

>>53876888

Yeah, I have something similar in my homebrew setting - there's an order of monks who are "sacred cannibals" because their immunity to poison and disease allows them to get rid of a particular phyrexian black oil-esque contagion that is otherwise extremely virulent.

>>53879603
>phyrexian black oil-esque contagion
Man I hate how nuPhyrexia made kids think glistening oil is Phazon.

>>53879694
It's always been horribly toxic. Mutating, no, but being a biohazard is not new at all.

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>>53879143
>>53879219
>>53879273

GURPS is love, GURPS is life

>>53879565
>"give money to Paizo for a shitty game" is literally "give money to WotC for a shitty game."

WotC and D&D aren't perfect but DND5e is infinitely superior to Pathfinder. They're not even remotely comparable.

I'd rather pay for a few meaty supplements for an enjoyable system with flaws than for a million barebones supplements for a broken system that just keeps rotting and bloating.

>>53876574
Paizo's run by a bunch of politician-tier liars that are, somehow, at the end of the day, also morons.

>"We're going to release an updated, fixed version of 3.5!"
>"Actually, what we meant is that we're going to reinforce the existing balance, as-is."
>"Actually, what we meant was that we were going to be incredibly biased against classes we don't like, and exclude or gimp pretty much any non-core mechanic that the majority has ever expressed a displeasure towards in favor of ivory tower design where full casting progression is literally the only indicator of a good class."

The warlock, for example, was never the best class; if I remember right, even a really well-built warlock was a very high tier-three/very low tier two, simply because of the amount of utility having a bunch of decently high level invocations allowed it. They stripped that out, gave it access to nothing but cantrips and, if I'm remembering right, lowered the total number of damage dice it gets for eldritch blast. Just as an example.

I don't ever plan on using it, but I still refuse to look at their version of psionics and the tome of battle.

>>53879059
Very well then, here is what my next character will be:

My next character is an animated dick. But not just any peasant's dicks, but a DRAGON DICK. An ancient dragon got into a battle with an ancient knight, and the knight managed to cut the Dragon's dick off with his sword. The knight won the battle, but also died due to his wounds shortly thereafter. The knight swore an oath to never again allow any part of the dragon's soul to ever corrupt the lands. So the knight's soul entered the dragon's still-squirming dick and it magically came to life!

The dragon dick now bounces and slithers around the realm seeking to destroy all other dragons it encounters. It has lots of magic and a natural bludgeoning attack.

My character's name is Dick the Daring.

>>53879855
Their psionics are just spellcasting with spells that scale with level and different components

They don't have a Tome of Battle, PF Tome of Battle is a third party supplement that is a hell of a lot better than the vast majority of stuff Paizo releases.

>>53879855
They're also half-truthers too, like how they constantly promise and keep promising huge class variety and versatility, yet you can count the number of useful classes and archetypes on one hand.

I remember the rant a Paizo dev game when someone criticized them for making ranged weapons too weak, which they sure as shit are, and compared Paizo's statement that reloading a crossbow couldn't be fast because it'd be unrealistic to how insane Paizo mages can be with the very easy powergame methods. Said Paizo dev mostly just mocked the guy and acted like a bratty shithead while talking about how powerful magic was and how it's supposed to be more powerful than anything physical ranged weapons can do.

If you're a crossbow lover, enjoy hitting for a max of 10-12 damage at level 10 once a turn when everyone else is hittting for 35-50 damage multiple times a turn.

>>53879926
The fucked part about their ""psionics""" being vancian is that monsters used a point based system for it.

>>53876574
d20's tend to cause cancer, which in turn weakens the mind and soul of a man, turning him into a faggot.

>>53879855
Warlock never got anything powerful enough to keep it T2. It had bullshit good low level tricks (swarms, anyone?) but nothing that scaled. It was a solid, and nearly impossible to fuck up, T3.

And pathfinder's got a "psionics" system that's just retarded fullcasting with a coat of paint, but the third-party publisher Dreamscarred Press did Ultimate Psionics and Path of War, which are both 100% gold.

>>53879875
>Dick the Daring.
God dammit anon.

>>53879961
Go play Gurps, Bazingafag.

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>>53879875
>Not Chong the Chode.

>>53879999
How's your chemo going anon?

>>53879828
>WotC and D&D aren't perfect
Well my friend, have you perhaps considered literally any other RPG on the market?

>>53880036
He's scared. It's hard for losers to leave their safe spaces.

>>53879961
>d20's tend to cause cancer
EXCEPT for Mutants and Masterminds. It's existence is literally the only reason you can's say "every d20 system is shit" and be right.

>>53879950
How about the whole thing about nerfing shit because they themselves couldn't catch a mouse tied to their wrist?
Because if a bunch of nerds sitting in an office can't do it, it must be impossible for a strong, in-shape adventurer to do it. Unless it's MAGIC.

>>53877583
Seriously what is up with that

>>53879950
Remember the Holy Gun? A Paladin archetype for use by Paladins who want to use a gun which is strictly worse in every way than an ordinary paladin using a gun without proficiency?

How the fuck does something like that even get made?

>>53879926
I'm assuming that you mean spells that don't scale with level...

>>53879960
...unless they went off the deep end and completely lost what made psionics even remotely well put-together as a system, which was that the powers didn't scale with level and you had to use up more energy making them more powerful.

Because of course they did.

>>53879950
That's interesting to hear. I'd be interested in reading that, if you've got a link.

>>53879964
Yeah warlock builds that peeked into T2 were always gimmicky and needed the exact right set of circumstances to function at their best. Which means that, most of the time, they're T3 anyway.

And I think it says some really bad things about your system when the best part of it is third-party content. Things along the lines of, "you don't know how to do your jobs."

>>53880106
Basically everything Paizo does involving guns is horribly underpowered. Aside from the gun wizard archetype, which is OP because WIZARD, I'm not aware of a single thing that guns are good for outside 3pp.
I'm not sure why, but for some unknown reason they either fucking hate guns despite dumping loads of focus into them, or are batshit retarded at evaluating their own game. I mean, they're already retarded at their game, but this is EVEN FURTHER BEYOND.

>>53880108
No, I mean that psionics in Pathfinder get spells that level up

So you have Mind Thrust I as a level 1 spell that deals 1d6 per caster level max 5d6, Mind Thrust II as a level 2 spell that deals 1d8 per caster level max 5d8, Mind Thrust III as a level 3 spell that deals 1d8 per caster level max 10d8 and so on, and if you know the a higher level variant, you can cast all lower level variants at their respective levels

>>53880058
Okay, I'll give you that. M&M is pretty dope.

>>53880196
That feels, somehow, worse.

>>53880163
How about the Kineticist? A class that seems to function as if they had somehow forgotten magic items even exist at all?

>>53880225
Oh, my bitching about guns in 1PP is by no means my only objection.
Haven't actually looked that hard at the kineticist, though I've heard it's a trainwreck. How bad IS it?

>>53880248
It's actually great, a really inventive class that lets you do really cool things with varying levels of power depending on what you invest

The problem is that it reads like it was designed by two people at once with no idea what the other was doing. So you have this "burn" mechanic where you can spend hit points to power your abilities, and another mechanic that powers you up depending on how much you've burned, and then there's this thing that lets you save up excess burn to be used later, BUT IT DOESN'T POWER YOU UP UNLESS YOU ACTUALLY TAKE THE HP HIT SO IT'S USELESS.

On top of that, the class functions as if it's main damage feature can be buffed with magic items, because it scales just like any other 3/4 BAB classes attacks, but you can't, so it's fucking garbage

So you're left with a class that can't do what it was designed to do, and can't do any damage regardless.

>>53880336
When you say burn, is that the same "only heals from rest" mechanic from 3.x?

>>53880163
>the gun wizard archetype, which is OP because WIZARD
It's pretty meh, actually. Well, at least compared to base Wizard.

>>53880336
Can confirm that Kineticist is pretty dope. I'm playing one right now, and I never thought I'd have so much fun playing Pathfinder. The healing option is actually surprisingly powerful.
Internal Buffer isn't that bad. You have to accept Burn, but the Burn heals overnight, while the Buffer lasts day after day until it's used.
IIRC, there are some magic bracelet-things that buff Kineticists, but I haven't gotten them yet in this campaign because they're pretty expensive, so don't quote me on that.

>>53880522
>It's pretty meh, actually. Well, at least compared to base Wizard.
It's straight-up better than a baseline hurr-fireball evoker. I mean, that's not an accomplishment, but at least it's good at SOMETHING unlike damn near every other gun-class and gun-archetype.

>>53880567
There's a surprisingly good Barbarian gun archetype

By which I mean there's a Barbarian archetype that you're supposed to use guns with, but the features actually favor making a straight melee dexbarian thanks to how it changes your rage (you gain strength and dexterity instead of strength and constitution, you also don't take an AC hit)

>>53880737
>There's a surprisingly good Barbarian gun archetype
Excuse me?!?

>>53880163
>made the mistake of playing a pf game
>one character had a gun
>the other was a swashbuckler
>same level
>gun character was hitting enemies at a max of 18 damage or so with crits
>swashbuckler was hitting for a max of 60 or more without crits because swashbucklers get a dozen bonus modifiers to damage
>sit there dumbfounded and notice the gun player is visibly frustrated
>check paizo forums later for topics on this
>paizo devs and users all agree swashbuckler is fairly balanced

>>53880770
Oh no, swashbucklers suck

Just, gunslingers suck more, especially if they aren't using a revolver

>>53880770
Swashbuckler is actually a little underpowered.
It's just that guns have literally no viable support outside 3pp.

>>53880036
>>53880047
Plenty. D20/D10 is in my mind the best baseline system, and currently 5E is the best D&D iteration we've yet seen. As flawed as any other, but it's more enjoyable than any and even fellow oldfags I've talked to often agree. It isn't PERFECT, it isn't FANTASTIC, but it's definitely the best.

I have played other systems though and they're fine, but D20/D10 will always be the best option for a conventional tabletop RPG.

>>53880064
>>53880106

I think Paizo balances content (on the extremely rare occasion that they actually do balance content) based on their own favorite classes. Seeing as how most Paizo devs claim to play magic characters first and straight damage melee characters second it'd explain why everything that isn't a very specific magic or melee build feels woefully underpowered and useless.

>>53880787
>>53880788

>swashbucklers suck or are underpowered

how in the nine hells did you arrive at this conclusion

gunslingers definitely suck but swashbucklers are probably the most overpowered melee class i've ever seen. not that i have any interest in playing PF anymore or its balance.

>>53880844
At what level did you you guys start out, and how exactly did your Swashbuckler deal 60 damage? We are going to need more concrete math on your end, because the consensus is that the vast majority of PF melee classes are underpowered.

>>53876574
It's Stockholm syndrome for a game. If you go into any "nerd store" you'll find Pathfinder and D&D and nothing else so if you're just starting out with tabletops you have two options and are stuck with them because that's all you'll find. So you play the game and get used to its massive flaws and buy all the books and by the time you know there are other games you've already dropped hundreds of dollars on the vast library of shitty Pathfinder books and it seems like a massive loss and new investment to try a new system.

They catch people new to the hobby who don't know any better so the players literally think that Pathfinder is the be all and end all of tabletop games. If you're lucky you get out and realize that new games require little cost to start and little time to learn because they aren't an abomination of corporate greed and terrible game design.

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>>53879000
>>53879028
what's up with the brown hair thing? Does that colour not exist in English or is it a coolstory meme?

>>53880844
>how in the nine hells did you arrive at this conclusion
By actually understanding the game. Having action jams because everything wants your swifts/immediates and being stuck with the worst combat style in the game doesn't help them.

>>53881253
I think it's just to make the generic human fighter even more generic. Brown is about as average as a haircolor as you can get. It isn't bright like blonde, it isn't cool like black, it isn't fiery like red. It's just brown.

>>53881310
>worst combat style
No, the real worst is not-a-monk unarmed.

>>53881383
Being able to TWF and/or use style feats makes that more questionable than you'd think.

>>53881323
Black isn't cool, it's boring as shit even moreso than brown.

>>53880091
No fucking idea, not even anima/exalted threads get as weebtard as /pfg/.

>>53880091
It's a shitposter, and one who likes to make really early new threads with really shitty OPs.
That's also the reason for all the weebshit OPs pathfinder threads get, and the unnatural obsession with kitsune.

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>>53877583
"Bro, your eyes" always cracks me up for some reason.

>>53880844
Oh man you would SHIT yourself if you saw a Barbarian or even a goddamn fighter that wasn't retarded.

>>53880844
M8, if a character can't kill themselves in two rounds, they're shit.
The good ones only need one round, but two is the acceptable floor.

>>53881219
But Pathfinder is, for all intents and purposes, free. Thanks to stuff like PFSRD

The only reason to buy anything is if you're playing with the Pathfinder society, which is fucking stupid, because the Pathfinder society is godawful and does not understand their own game

>>53877583
Now I like Pathfinder more.

>>53882818
There are people who buy the books regardless of whether or not the content is free. There's also the buy-in of people with massive 3.5e book collections and the fact that Pathfinder is mostly compatible with them, trading in one abuser for another.
It's a damn shame there's no other free RPG with as much popularity and staying power as Pathfinder, I'd love to play something different for once.

>>53882818
Does society have some stupid "you must bring physical copies of every single book you're taking options from and they have to be signed in your blood" rule or something?

>>53883412
Aside from the signed in blood bit? Yes, you must either have physical copies of the books you're using with you, or pdfs with a digital signature.

It's really fucking stupid, even if Pathfinder wasn't practically all available online, no one who ever plays an RPG in a normal group expects every single person in the group to own the books, usually you only need one guy who owns the books

>>53883903
I never did PFS so I could be wrong, but if I remember correctly wasn't the rule that someone at the table had to have the appropriate book? So you and your roommate can just share a book and cut down on the weight, but if you're playing with randoms you can't assume they have it.

Still kind of a shitty cash grab when most of the stuff is free online though.

Part of the problem is people that start with 3.PF and then assume all systems are just as complex and full of crap

These people will never believe you when you say there genuinely exist games that work when you run them 100% RAW without exceptions.

>>53883903
This sounds like some kind of weird, highly stupid, "cash investment," kind of gatekeeping. Like, they think you'll be a bad player, that you won't be invested in the game, you won't be there to, "actually," play the game, or whatever, if you haven't shelled out enough money to buy the core books and all the other books you need for your build.

>>53879796
Nvm Gurps is cthulhu cultists

>>53879143
>>53879219
>>53879796

Gurps is Satan. Gurps says YOU decide which rules to follow at your own peril.
Gurps has age-old evil tomes you risk your own sanity to read, but the crunchy crunch and well researched fluff rewards the inquisite and stalwart mind.
Gurps is not for the weak. Its not for the GM's who can't say "no" to the 80GUNZ demons. Its not for GM's who can't limit themselves, or who can't resist the lure of adding a little more crunch.

TLDR; GURPS is the club that promises absolute freedom at the small price of both your sanity and immortal soul.

>>53883412
>>53882818
how is that bad that if you want to play on their official circuit you have to own the source material?
that only makes sense.

you can always play with your friends for free without even having to pirate the books, which sounds insanely good.
both the official and unoficcial PF websites are very functional too.

>>53880567
It's a ridiculously potent 1 level dip for basically any full caster class. The ability to add to your DCs just by havign a magic weapon is insane (and the 3x crit on rays can lead to some shenans).

>>53880743
Savage Technologist

>>53880737
It works best as a CQC expert using gun+knife (or rapier). Use Opening Volley for one hand to buff your to-hit with the off hand massively and just smash things.

>>53884217
I never said that was what was stupid about PFS

The stupid thing about PFS is that their rulings are fucking retarded. What they ban and what they allow is so disconnected from the actual balance of the game that it becomes totally arbitrary.

>>53880058

Every edition of M&M is deliberately further divorced from the D20 system.
3e wouldn't even need to be published under the OGL in my opinion, it's just there for branding at this point.

>synthesist outclasses 99% of martial characters
Tll me about pathfinder balance; its always fun

>>53885133
Synthesist outclasses 99% of martial characters, and yet a baseline summoner outclasses synthesist

>>53884183
>not mortaring 80GUNZ

>>53885169
And that is what makes it all the mpre hilarious!

>>53884309
You say that like PF has any semblance of balance.

>>53885687
Sure it does

Shit balance is still balance, a scale that lilts at 80/20 is still a scale

>>53885881
That is retarded reasoning and negates the meaning of the word balance.
Say it what it is, an imbalanced piece of shit system.

>>53885881
Are you a literal fucking retard. By your reasoning, any shit poorly balanced shitstain of a system is now balanced.

>>53879273
Wayne, you're alright.

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>>53880108
I actually enjoy playing 3.pf

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>>53886598
I feel like I should also mention that the second SKR was no longer on the paizo payroll, he span on a fucking dime. Turned out he was being used as a scapegoat for Jason Bulmahn (the weapon cord = mouse guy) for years.

>>53886598
>bows are better because you can shoot more arrows in the same timeframe
>claiming to reflect reality
Then why aren't crossbows shorter-ranged, high-impact weapons that blast through plate while longbows are as tall as the user and pretty much need to be fired from a stationary standing position, typically being used as massed volley weapons for their superior range? Why can people use longbows for half the acrobatic rogue shit you'd realistically need a shortbow to pull off?

Why is SKR such a consummate faggot about things he knows fucking nothing about?

>>53886711
See the next post.

He had to defend the company he was working at.

I still think he's an idiot, and am actually sorta proud my comment got immortalized in one of the "SKR is an idiot" screenshots.

>>53886736
I'm not convinced. He lost his position with the company, and the people who don't like that company's decisions would have a field day with what he was saying. Of course he turned, it's the only crowd he can get pity points from while biting back at the people who 'betrayed' him.

You don't get to act like a huge cunt, switch teams and pretend you're not still a huge cunt.

>>53886777
Nobody ever accused SKR of not being a cunt, but if I was being used to publicly represent a viewpoint I vehemently disagreed with for years, I'd imagine I'd be a cunt about it too.

>>53886304
>>53886343
Different meanings of the term "balance"

A shitty game with ridiculous character tiers has a "balance", but that doesn't make it "balanced"

Again, the scale metaphor, a scale that sits perfectly level without anything on it is "balanced", a scale that lilts dramatically to one side isn't, but the second scale still has "a balance", it's balance is just shit

>>53877583
5e is the most normie system to ever exist. I've tried to play so many games and both the system and the people who play it are so fucking terribly boring.

The mechanics are simple at best, vague at worst to the point "Ask your DM" is the only actual god damn rule. Character options are limited and restricting, and the people who play are the same. Nobody's had a character who didn't fit exactly into the little corner their class branch led them in to.

Meanwhile Pathfinder, its fairly deep, admittedly easy to get in to but hard to master. And the people tend to be shitters but at least its creative and lets people do interesting things. Seriously man, last month I had a guy playing a level 9 kobold cavalier. Want to know what he did? He got leadership, for another kobold cavalier, who he rode. That one also took leadership, for a kobold wizard with the instructor archetype for yet another fucking kobold. Four kobolds, and what he did was amazing: They all had undersized mount and rode each other. It was a god damn tower of 4 kobolds with lances that could cast some shitty spells.

>>53887370
I like having fun more than fiddling with a towering stack of rules to create the most quirky or overpowered build.

>>53887448
Some people have fun playing with the rules to make unique builds. For better or for worse, chargen in 3.x is a game in and of itself, that a lot of people enjoy, and that 5e just doesn't offer.

>>53887370
>5e is the most normie system to ever exist.
Stopped reading right there, your thoughts and opinions are invalid.

>>53887448
But fiddling with a towering stack of rules to create the most quirky or overpowered build is super fun.

I enjoy building characters for Pathfinder far more than I'd ever enjoy playing it

>>53881253
Anyone have the source on that image?

>>53887448
>WotR gestalt, make quirky acid ball blaster because fun
>mfw acid damage coupled with resistance bypass/deal half on immunity literally melts anything on the way
>mfw I had to end up changing to a standard 2handed weapon build

>>53887370
Simple is not synonymous with bad, neither is complex synonymous with good.

>>53876828
To be fair, the guys putting together the new club used to be in charge of the old club, until the owners of said old club fucked them over - and not even to save a couple of bucks, just in the name of 'corporate IP protection'.

>>53889428
I think the issue is that it's so simple the options barely feel any different. Any warrior feels to similar to the other one, as do casters, and the characters that do have potentially interesting flavorful mechanics have certain limitations to them, like how warlock has plenty of invocations that really help you feel like an eldritch mage but you have boring stuff too good not to pick up like agonizing blast.
3.PF on the other hand has a lot of awful but mechanically unusual choices, that you can try and force to work through stacking various modifiers and finally playing the character concept you want. It doesn't always work, of course.

The thing is, to solve 5e's blandness and simplicity dragging it down you're counting on your GM not being a fuckup and rolling with what you want, while to solve 3.PFs brokeness, you only depend on your own ability to try and force the system to work like you want. Ideally you'd play neither with a system that helps you play the characters you want, but I can see how people might prefer a complexity that allows them to be self-reliant.

>>53889659
The problem with pathfinder is that it tries to give mechanical rules to little changes in style and type and it winds up shitting over everything. There's no reason to every play anything other than a 2h fighter; Yeah, there's a huge line of feats that let you try and sword-and-board with shield bashes, throws, and styles, and some rogues can get use out of two-weapon fighting to deal bonus sneak attack damage. But one feat (power attack) invalidates all of that and it's never been nerfed or given a halfway decent alternative.

Then there's shit like the Monk, which looks like an option but is really just a trap for players, in direct contrast to Druids and Wizards that shit all over the rest of the party.

If you're having trouble with 5e being boring, it's because you're boring for having to have a specific mechanical feat or effect for every single possible build, which is a terrible habit that 3.pf encouraged for a long time.

>>53889769
Every game has options that are better than others, but the idea is that you can try to make the subpar ones work and sometimes they grant you nice results. I'll admit not every concept is possible, but they're not that pointless. And if you want to compare them against casters, 5e casters also shit on the other guys, you can make a 4 caster party and still not miss the fighter or rogue just like in 3.PF.

What I'm saying about mechanics is that 3.PF enforces some of them for roleplaying purposes, which isn't the case for a lot of 5e shit, where you can use many things in unusual ways, but the GM has the final say. Try to compare both game's version of spells or abilities to see the difference: grease, for example, is too simple of a spell in 5e, it just creates a layer and people fall. In 3.PF it's certainly too good and that is the actual issue with the system, things not being balanced. But it has rules if you try to get creative with it like targeting weapons or escaping chains, it only depends on the player thinking of it. If you try one of those uses in 5e, you need to get your GM to agree on them which takes away some of your freedom, might waste time with arguments and eventually he will say some class ability or spell can't be used that way.

>>53890093
Have you tried playing with a DM that isn't shit?

>>53887370
FUCKING NORMIEEEEES REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

>>53887370
autistic

search for help

>>53890211
Yeah, you can't always get one of those and it's good to have a backup plan.

>>53888316
Google's not turning up anything, but I recognize that as Sparrow's art style, and the cop looks alot like Richard Belzer from those old crime dramas.

>>53890093
>3.5 is better because more rules means better defenses against shitty GMs

That's an argument that's been being made for years, and it's always been a shit argument, no matter what system you use.

Yes, a shit GM is going to shit all over your game, but that's a given in any system. 3.PF's grease isn't even that good - The saving throw is low enough that you can ignore it with a good roll, so just run right the fuck over that or jump over it or whatever.

5e uses simpler rules that are up for interpretation because it remembers that roleplaying is a game you play with other people, not against other people. There's no specific saving throws or exact details of what you can use grease for, which is a healthier spell for creating a dialogue instead of having unbalanced Wizards that can say "No, I do this, because the spell says that I can, and there's nothing you can do about it."

>>53887739
but that's a problem precisely
having players be more interested in building their little alter egos over playing the game should tell you how bad things are.
they made character customization the most important thing in the game, it made battles extremely slow and boring

>>53876888
His character is designed backwards like all pathfinder characters. Its a character based on rules, not rules selected to suit a character.

>>53877583
Dont kid yourself bro, 5e isnt nearly that cool.

>>53884887
I haven't actually looked at 3e much. The only difference between them I was able to see was that 3e made the powers a lot more broad and generalized (and boring). How exactly is it less d20 than 2e?

>>53876574
Pathfinder players are much less annoying than the people constantly butthurt about them having badwrongfun.

>>53887219
Your definition is still fucking hugely retarded. This means that every shit game has balance, which is simply not true.

>>53881568
I mean, having seen how blatantly some of the bait threads have been, yet they still consistenly reach bump limit, I'm more inclined to blame the fanbase than one supposed boogieman.

>>53884183
D&D causes brain damage though, there's even proof of it.

I made a barbarian/witch in PF thinking it would work well and playing it for the flavor. I was literally the only useless character in the party, except for the swashbuckler who felt he was useless because his attacks were fucking boring as shit.

Pathfinder is a piece of shit system that promises a great deal but doesn't deliver at all, unless you're a full caster.

>>53892072
Not that guy, but here's another example:
All food you eat is part of your diet. But that doesn't mean you're "on a diet," because being "on a diet" means something more specific than just "happens to eat food".

They're referring to the game's balance, not to whether it "is balanced" as a self contained statement which means its own thing. It is imbalanced, but just because his phrasing uses the word balance doesn't mean he's is saying it "is balanced".

tl;dr: you're actually agreeing

>>53876574
They play Pathfinder.

>>53892116
If you make another thread, it often gets deleted by the moderation.
If you don't make another thread, then there's only one venue for conversation about the topic, and people will bite the bullet and decide that shit thread is better than pretending there's no thread.

>>53892372
And that comparison too also sounds fucking retarded.

>>53892337
>I made a barbarian/witch in PF thinking it would work well and playing it for the flavor

This is where the character building minigame comes in. A Barba-witch can be made to work. (harder now with the rework of scarred witchdoctor), but it's going to take some very specific race, feats and archetypes for both.

>>53892600
It depends on how barbarian he wants to be.
Barbarian 1 or 2 / Witch X is perfectly viable, since being a bit worse fullcaster is still fullcasting, but anything more than that starts crippling your casting and hexes too badly unless you know exactly what you're doing.

>>53892600
But I didn't want a character building minigame and I didn't want to fiddle to make my concept work, I just wanted it to work.

>>53892542
I know this is gonna sound catty as all hell, but I mean it honestly: how much RPG stuff do you play? Because that end of the hobby leans pretty hard on rhetoric and wordcraft, so if this is rubbing you the wrong way I would think a lot of what comes along with pen and paper games would be frustrating.

>>53892691
Yeah, that's why PF is a shitty game for most normal people.
>>53892669
Could go white haired witch and do a natural weapon attack build. Could have gone Urban barb + Scarred witchdoctor. Could go Valet familiar (or one of the other ones that you can give team-work feats to) + orc + sympathetic rage build and savage someone with a familiar tag-team.

Best option would be to redefine "witch" as the potion brewer witch-doctor kind and go alchemist.

>>53879926
>Their psionics are just spellcasting with spells that scale with level and different components
The whole point of psychic magic was that it's NOT psionics. They literally said "Hey guys, DSP already did psionics for Pathfinder and they did an amazing job, so we're gonna do a different take on things instead."

>>53892861
>Yeah, that's why PF is a shitty game for most normal people.
It's a fine game for normal people if a veteran walks them through everything.
It's a clusterfuck when the most experienced player in the group offers to help anyone with anything anytime over spring break and NOBODY FUCKING TAKES THE OFFER AND HALF THE GROUP DOESN'T HAVE A CHARACTER COME SESSION 1 AND THE OTHER HALF BITCHES ABOUT BEING TOO WEAK AND/OR THE SUMMONER BEING OP.

>>53893004
I'd say having traps like that makes it shit for normal people. Needing a guide for a game because shit isn't obvious is definitely a mark against it.

No game is perfect about this, but PF is pretty damn bad in this regard.

Also note that probably none of my suggestion fit in what vision that guy had for his character so it's kinda stupid to say "oh you could do this!". This is how you start with "Sword and board fighter who wants to protect his allies!" and end with a whip magus.

>>53893004
Why are you this autistic.

>>53892861
Heh.
>>53892787
>>53893004
>>53893062
I had been building things in Pathfinder for a while, but decided to try to actually go for a flavor first concept. That backfired.

Pathfinder is better off as character building minigame but that is also absurdly useless and disingenuous, because its main game fucking doesn't work.

>>53893062
>Needing a guide for a game because shit isn't obvious is definitely a mark against it.
Oh, I'm not contesting that. I'm just saying that if you do have an experienced guide, it's far less of a clusterfuck.

>Also note that probably none of my suggestion fit in what vision that guy had for his character so it's kinda stupid to say "oh you could do this!". This is how you start with "Sword and board fighter who wants to protect his allies!" and end with a whip magus.
Yeah, but there's not much you can do to "protect allies" in 1pp short of tripspam and/or magic.
With 3pp, you could make a damn solid Golden Lion / Iron Tortoise / Silver Crane using Warder, or GL/SC Zealot. Those would both work fine with sword-and-board and permit effective team-defense.

>>53893170
>>53893207
>flavor first
Yeah, that's one of the primary flaws of 3.PF, you can't start with fluff unless you're playing a caster or already know you can make it work.

>>53893238
I'd have to DM a PF game to have one where 3rd party is allowed, and then the non-autistic players would be in even deeper shit because now there's like double the material to chew through, and anything they want will be probably met "how about DSP?" which can be really infuriating and off putting in the "how about you just play the game by yourself way.

And if I want to play a tight T3-4 game, and I need to run it, I may as well play 4e and just sidestep this whole shit.

>>53893238
And then are retards who won't allow PoW or the psionics mechanics.

>>53893301
>>53893311
I've had a lot of luck getting PoW approved by presenting it as "doing cool things without being a wizard" and "having options that aren't DUDE I FULL ATTACK", openly acknowledging that it can be OP as fuck compared to unoptimized martials, and showing character-math that demonstrates that my planned character isn't going to break everything forever.

>>53893393

I can't even imagine how infuriating it would be to do all that work to prove that a martial class isn't over powered in a game when the DM is already allowing wizards, clerics, and druids.

>>53893588
It's honestly not much work if you already have a character ready. Just ask "at this level, three levels higher, and six levels higher, what would a 2hand power-attack fighter be doing, what would I be doing, are they comparable?" and show that to the GM.
Having to do it at all is irritating, sure, especially considering how much easier it was in 3.5 when ToB was 1pp. But hey, it's generally at most 10 or 15 minutes of talk for hours of being able to have double plusgood fun as a martial instead of just going conjuration spec wizard #19.

But what really pisses me off is the retarded nerf paizo gave to Stand Still for no apparent reason.

>>53889629
Considering their creative output thus far, I think that cutting them out of D&D forever may have been for the good of the hobby.

>>53886598
>the illusion of choice
>false options

Little did he know it but he 100% perfectly summed up all of Pathfinder in one sentence.

>>53876574
Can someone actually explain to me what's wrong with the OP's screenshot? I'm not seeing anything that weird.

>>53887370

Yeah, gotta love the versatility of Pathfinder where only a few classes are worth anything and you have feat investments, often required, that give you a single +1 bonus to something, and by later levels you're rolling to beat DCs of 40 or 50 and it's fine because your skills are all at +35 and one of your 4 different ACs is at 25-30 and enemies have CMDs of 95 thus nullifying the dozen feat investment you need to become good at combat maneuvers.

Holy fuck, I hate Pathfinder. People say it's more mechanically advanced than 5E, and granted in a very few ways it is, but the rest of it is just absolute clunk. Useless bloat. False options and illusion of depth. When you play it long enough and realize that you can literally count on a hand all the viable options for the game and that everything is catered towards hyper minmaxers and munchkins, it loses all its appeal.

5E is a lean steak with delicious meat. Pathfinder is an alright steak with 9-foot thick layers of fat on the sides. Technically the PF steak is bigger but no one is going to go with it when almost all of its mass is disgusting or meant to be trimmed off.

>>53892691
>>53892861
Not even shitty for normal people.

I've played what you could call "hardcore" RPGs for years, before I even heard of Pathfinder.

When I got into it not too long ago and before I subsequently got out of it I was baffled at how much stuff there was, but not because of complexity, but because the meme isn't a meme. PF really doesn't have that much choice or option to it. I've heard vet players say the first thing new players have to learn is that 95% of the character options are completely useless. To make a character requires the exact same feat path and the exact same focus on everything to get good and optimized and not feel like a floundering salmon by level 5.

Every game I played the only versatility would be in names, roleplayed personalities (and for some reason most PF players don't enjoy roleplay), and skill sets. Otherwise, feat trees would be the same. Ability Scores would be allotted similarly. Classes would take the same options.

More than even the hardcore numbercrunching RPGs you could find in the 90s, PF relies so heavily on optimization and fooling you with choice that it's insane. Even in the old games you could make anything viable if you were good enough.

In PF it doesn't matter. If you don't follow the exact parameters far outside of your control predetermined by Paizo to achieve your character, you will be unoptimized, contribute nothing, and will lose.

>>53887370
>Nobody's had a character who didn't fit exactly into the little corner their class branch led them in to.
Ironically this is what always happens in Pathfinder games. Even 5E has loads more character variety probably because its archetypes don't suck shit and actually make the classes feel unique, then you get Pathfinder where every archetype is "lose 75% of your basic abilities to gain a single situational ability that isn't even that good" except for the handful of good ones hidden for minmaxers that everyone takes.

>>53892470
Which means that the problem lies in the fanbase rather than some perceived lone agent of chaos as you (or the anon I was talking to) was describing.

>>53879755

Used to give you general health and nanemachines

I'm all for shitting on pathfinder, it's an awful game, but half the people in this thread shouting about how butthurt they are know so little about pathfinder it's making me question whether they ever played it or are just parroting opinions.

>>53889629
>in charge of
No, Paizo published a supplemental magazine. They were in no way in charge of D&D.

>>53876574
Are you actually so butthurt that you opened pathfinder's general and just screen capped some random post to try and get people to complain? Why the fuck do you care? I'm always astounded over how butthurt people get over pathfinder when the fucking pathfinder general themselves will tell you the game is shit and to avoid getting into it because it isn't worth it.

>>53877583
that seems to imply pathfinder is better, though.

>>53894577

Look at this salt. Only the guilty fear the light of day.

>>53894577
Oh boy, another 3aboo proclaiming that his system is perfect and everyone who hates it just doesn't understand how the system actually works.

Can't wait to see how you sperg out for a good 150+ posts desperately defending your shitty system even though 5e already dethroned it from the top of monkey mountain.

I'm even going to do you a solid friend since the last bait thread was so good, I'm trolling you. If you respond seriously to this reply, you have nobody to blame but yourself.

>>53894297
You seem upset. Maybe you should give us some examples instead of whinging at no one in particular.

>>53894117
Agree with the analogy for 5e, would add to say PF is a burnt steak full of pus-filled cysts which you desperately try to season but still ends up tasting like garbage.

>>53894876
Jimmy over here >>53894249. There are some useless archetypes. 80% of archetypes are usable however. He's trying to hyper exaggerate a problem that's only minor in order to draw a contrast, or he actually things 99% of PF archetypes are unusable which is simply wrong.

>>53894966
Most PF archetypes are as usable as the base class. That means there's a giant pile of archetypes for unusable classes that are unusable by virtue of the class they're for.

>>53894966
Give me one good Fighter build that's usable outside of a T3/T4 campaign.

Hard Mode: No ToB/PoW
Nightmare Mode: No supplements

>>53895021
Chaingun tripper.
Wow that took 3 seconds of thought.

>>53894966
While he may be exaggerating a little, what he has said is actually correct, your apologist nature aside.

>>53895058
How does it work?

>>53895058
This is basically noise, it doesn't tell us anything worthwhile.

>>53876574
Everything.

>>53895021
I'll give you two in Nightmare Mode:

>Mutation Warrior Opportunist Fighter VMC Sorcerer (choose which ever bloodline gives the utility you want)
Gives you a bag full of options and preserves Weapon Training for AWT
>Lore Warden Fighter VMC Bard w/ Eldritch Heritage
You have become the resident knowledge monkey by a wide margin.

Both do fine around tier 2 character as long as you don't have those tier 2 characters doing planar binding/blood money/simulacrum cheese which is a problem with the system as a whole.

>>53877583
wtf i like pathfinder now

>>53895010
There are very few actually unusable classes. It comes down to base monk, base rogue, samurai, and base ninja as the actually useless lot. The majority of pathfinder's classes are perfectly useable. Over 80% at the very least. Please prove me otherwise by providing your 'useless' list and we'll analyze it.

>>53895163
So you're using spellcasting classes and claiming the martial is perfectly viable. Good to know.

>>53895010
Which classes are unusable? I can only point at 3-4 and two of them have unchained versions which are usable.

>>53895086
Standing from prone provokes attacks of opportunity, you can use attacks of opportunity to make trip attempts.
A reach weapon gets you attacks of opportunity when bitches try to get close, unless they take lots of tiny 5ft steps which you can counter by backpedaling the same way.
Result: Anyone who tries to melee you has fallen and can't get up.

And at 6th level you get Greater Trip and now falling down provokes attacks of opportunity from you and your allies, so now the enemies are falling and getting stabbed for it.

L1 build would be a guisarme, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes.

>>53895193
Four classes worth of archetypes is a giant pile, anon.

>>53876828

Wait, are you serious about Mike Mearls?!

>>53895213
So you don't know anything about pathfinder, eh? Neither of those builds can cast a single spell. Eldritch Heritage on the second is for a Sage familiar.

Try again.

>>53895234
And quite literally base rogue/monk had fixed versions released called 'unchained' which made them usable.

Now the only things that are actually garbage are the alternate version of base rogue (ninja) and samurai. Ninja and Samurai don't form a 'giant pile'. Between the two classes they have ONE archetype.

Why? Because they're alternate classes, basically more in depth archetypes.

>>53895283
>And quite literally base rogue/monk had fixed versions released called 'unchained' which made them usable.
And quite literally not everyone uses those versions, has that book, or even knows it exists.
I'm currently playing in a group with a core monk and a core rogue.

>>53895245
You're stealing class abilities from actual spellcasting classes and tacking them in and claiming the martial is perfectly viable as a martial class.

Basically you're using convulted workarounds.

>>53876574
So what's so bad about the post OP screen capped. Seems like a decent character concept.

>>53895327
Not having the book isn't an excuse because all the rules are free online. You obviously have an Internet connection because you post on here.

Not knowing was an excuse until now, now you know, tell those two and have them rebuild. But not knowing something was fixed isn't a great excuse for using the broken version.

Not using it if you know it exists has no excuse because you're purposefully using a version the creators said "yeah we goofed here".

>>53895234
So how is this supposed to work against creatures who are immune/resistant to tripping? Also, wouldn't this be useless against creatures who can hit you at ranged? To say nothing on spells that would allow you to safely get into your face or escape the trip-locking.

Overall, not really impressed mate, I could see it working in a low-level T3/T4 campaign but the challenge was making a fighter who could go beyond that.

>>53880822

>d20/d10 is the best baseline system

You fucking retarded fuck. Dice pool mechanics are better, because you have far less of a random distribution. If you want to reliably succeed in a check, you need a bonus that's high enough, because until you do, it's literally down to whether you get a 1 or a 20.

Whereas with a dice pool system, the peaks and troughs get smoothed out, since there's multiple tosses. lrn2statistics. No wonder people laugh at D&D players if you all think like this.

>>53895245
>>53895163
Y'know, adding caster levels to a Fighter doesn't make a viable Fighter, it just makes a shittier caster.

>>53895411
So /pgg/ has an example fighter who can solo literally every creature in the bestiary including the CR35 mythic ones while not being mythic himself. Do you just want that one? It's referred to as autism fighter.

>>53895381
>Not having the book isn't an excuse because all the rules are free online.
Okay, how many people do you think are going to go online just to find out how badly they fucked themselves over at higher levels.

Hell, even on /tg/ you'd be hard pressed to find a majority who actually reads the books, and we're talking about an age where most books are on .pdf's and can be downloaded for free.

>>53895436
Honestly curious, link him.

>>53895436
I'm just waiting for you to give me a viable Fighter class, so by all means.

>>53882017

Yeah?

Celerity+Time Stop. Twinned Maximized Energy Drain x3, Bestow Curse, Dominate Person. Plus whatever Quickened stuff I have.

>>53895334
Archetypes take class features from other classes a good portion of the time. You want one that doesn't touch another class's features?

High Guardian Fighter w/ AW&AAT

>>53895498
Oh boy, can't wait to see how disappointing this is.

>>53895381
I'm >>53893004. I OFFERED help, they declined. It's between them and the GM now.
And the monk's actually doing fine, since he's pulled a third attack per round out of his ass at level three. I'm 99% sure he's not following the rules and doesn't know it because he's still thinking 5ed, but I'm not telling the GM because it's making him relevant.

>>53895411
>So how is this supposed to work against creatures who are immune/resistant to tripping?
You have a two-handed weapon and can grab power attack at second level.

>Also, wouldn't this be useless against creatures who can hit you at ranged?
You can get close to them and trip them. If you can't get close, every single melee build has the same issue but can carry a longbow and plink with it.

>To say nothing on spells that would allow you to safely get into your face or escape the trip-locking.
Magic is OP, news at 11. Also see above RE untrippables.

>>53895283
>>53895327
>>53895381
Do you guys realize how insane this conversation sounds? You're arguing about class tiers and broken classes being later made less broken in alternate books.

This shit doesn't happen in other RPGs! In other games the developers don't fuck up their game and make you have to buy new books that are "fixed" while leaving the same broken content in the game. People who play other games don't have to create their own tiering system so they know what options are boring and which ones will break the game.

Why the fuck do Pathfinder players think this is an acceptable, normal thing to do in a tabletop game? The easiest solution is just to play a game that does not have these massive flaws. Why do these players cling to their pile of shit like madmen?

>>53895431
None of these builds have caster levels.

>>53895480
>>53895491
It's affectionatly referred to as Autismfighter

>https://pastebin.com/YA3rRptE

>>53895540
>You have a two-handed weapon and can grab power attack at second level.
So does every other Fighter worth playing, it still doesn't help them be a viable class.
>You can get close to them and trip them. If you can't get close, every single melee build has the same issue but can carry a longbow and plink with it.
So that's two strategies that completely shut it down and you still consider this viable?
>Magic is OP, news at 11. Also see above RE untrippables.
Cool, so now you're admitting that the build is unviable, at least you're being honest.

I don't know whether you have misplaced optimism or crippling retardation, but I hope the next attempt is better than this one.

>>53895563
>This shit doesn't happen in other RPGs! In other games the developers don't fuck up their game and make you have to buy new books that are "fixed" while leaving the same broken content in the game.

That because in most other RPGs all the broken garbage never gets fixed or even addressed. Just because pathfinder's shit is toxic doesn't make other's game's shit smell like roses.

I can point out horribly broken shit in a number of RPGs that are only fixed in later editions not in same edition supplements. That's the only real difference we're talking about here.

>>53895422
>muh statistics
>if you don't have a doctorate in statistical mathematics don't play rpgs

>>53895563
It doesn't happen in other games because other games don't fix their fuckups.
Except wait, look at any RPG that's done well enough to get a second edition, and look at the balance changes.
And look at all the games that have errata.

Whoops, it's a lot more common that you thought, huh?

>>53895589
I'm still not seeing the argument that a fighter is not viable when a fighter can handle literally every creature in the bestiary by himself when built properly. Not even using archetypes, just base fighter.


Give me a level and I'll make you a fighter build that is competent in combat and does well enough with his skills out of combat.

>>53895563
>>Why the fuck do Pathfinder players think this is an acceptable, normal thing to do in a tabletop game?
It's literally the only game they've played in depth most times and they're too lazy to branch out and experiment with other systems because they think that it'll be just as tedious as learning PF is.

Also, if you want to see cognitive Dissonance at work look no forward than
>>53895593
>>53895607

>>53876828
Can you imagine the absolute anal annihilation that would come of Pathfinder 2e being a D&D 4e clone?

>>53895625
>does well enough with his skills out of combat
Ok, I gotta see this. You've gotta be doing something crazy with that shitty class skill list and fuck you + int points per level.
3rd, 10th, and 20th levels, please.

>>53895193
>>53895222
Most PF classes are either unusable or horribly unoptimized in comparison to the others. You only need a Rogue for traps and rare diplomacy, a Barbarian for hitting, and a Mage for AOE and control. Healing spells are never needed as you can buy wands. Tactics don't matter in PF either. Your best bet is pure, raw damage. If your class isn't outputting max raw damage per turn consistently it is not worth playing.

PF can barely even be called an RPG. It's a combat slog with optional characterization elements designed for people who think sifting through 700 pages of character options for the 7 of them that are worthwhile is fun.

>>53895636
You haven't even made an argument, you're trying to avoid an argument because you know you don't actually have a defendable position on this point.

I will reiterate. I think pathfinder is a garbage system. However, pointing to the fact that they came out and updated two classes they thought were too weak is not a good reason to point to as to why it is a garbage system. In fact it's one of the few good things Paizo did.

>>53895674
I'm going to ask again. Which classes are unusable. Commit to a list for your argument.

>>53895573
That shit is approaching Pun-Pun levels, no wonder it's called an autism fighter, because everyone involved would have to be on the spectrum in order to let that shit fly.

Sad thing is, it'd still probably get shat on by a mage.

>>53895704
It actually shits on most wizards who try the herp-derp "i heard this was gud" tactics.

It's absolutely trivial to beat with a wizard, but 99% of wizard players don't see the most obvious flaw.

>>53895700

Bards and Cavaliers for starters are fucking jokes

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580KB, 1879x1879px

>>53895678
>You haven't even made an argument
You're right, I'm insulting you.

Here's a trophy for exercising that stunning Wisdom check. Go ahead champ, you've earned it.

>>53887370
>The mechanics are simple at best, vague at worst to the point "Ask your DM" is the only actual god damn rule.
It's been the only rule that matters since 1974.

>>53895704
>Sad thing is, it'd still probably get shat on by a mage.
There have actually been several threads on the viable strategies to kill Eobard as a wizard. You need to give him more than 20 negative levels in 1 round from sources he isn't aware of. A wizard can do this by mass planar binding and teleporting in invisible en masse to try and hit him. It takes a lot of effort/supplies/etc. but can be done.

There are ways, but it's much easier to come up with a plan to defeat a static target and not really viable unless you've planned and built your character around killing him.

So since we're actually talking pathfinder mechanics, could somebody explain to me how you're supposed to get any utility out of teamwork feats if you're not in the 1% of groups that do group chargen?
As far as I can tell, they're 100% useless if nobody else has them.

>>53891343
what did he mean by this?

>>53895726
>It actually shits on most wizards who try the herp-derp "i heard this was gud" tactics.
So shitty wizards, gotcha.

>>53895674
>as you can buy wand
every fucking time.
These are the people that criticise systems.

>>53895764
>There are ways, but it's much easier to come up with a plan to defeat a static target and not really viable unless you've planned and built your character around killing him.
Yep, another braindead who can't see the 0-effort way to kill the autism fighter.

>>53895563

Because the average PF finder is a number-crunching autist who unironically thinks it's fun.

>>53895764
To be fair, how many people do you think are going to use Eobard in practice without the GM going "nuh uh, too broken, GTFO!"

I mean, I once got barred from making a gunslinger because the GM thought that they were busted, I can't imagine how much dick you'd have to suck to let the GM let this shit fly.

>>53895726
If you're thinking of the need to breathe that doesn't work, that was fixed in one of the later versions.

Also if you're thinking of negative levels they need to be all at once from invisible sources more than 120ft away.

>>53895732
>Cavaliers
Cavaliers more than anything suffer from not their design but from campaign's design due to mounted combat not being viable in tight spaces, and most people designing campaigns around tight spacing. That being said there actually are unmounted cavaliers like Disciple of the Pike w/ Order of the Hero which are perfectly viable in all style of campaign.

>Bard
Not seeing your reasoning here unless you tried to build for archery and did it badly.

>>53895794
I'm not seeing it, what's the strategy? Mage's Disjunction to deprive him of his gear?

>>53895573

Okay.

TK + Orb of Annihilation. gg no re.

>>53895788
I'd love to hear your (shitty) explanation for why a wand is less viable to invest in than a dedicated healer. Should mention how healing in PF is one of the most unviable means to play a Cleric, especially when a wand of CLW already does the job for the added bonus of literally anyone in the party being able to use it during a pinch.

>>53895839
Funnily enough even if you Mage's Disjunction him he can still cut enervation rays out of the air

>>53895756
Some things are better left vague or up to the DM.

In 5E you can say "I want to jump up onto this ledge and kick this pile of barrels down, sending them rolling over this alleyway full of bad guys to give us a better chance of escape" and at most you may make an Acrobatics check or the DM just thinks it's cool and says sure.

In PF to do that you need to make an Acrobatics check, a Climb check, a Strength check after burning a class feature for an additional action, then an opposed CMB vs. CMD against all of the bad guys and/or they must make Reflex saving throws each and/or opposed normal AC checks and if even a single element of that sequence is not successful in the player's favor it just doesn't happen.

Even ADND offered more creativity and flexibility than Pathfinder does. Pathfinder is anti-creativity. Everything you could possibly do has a roll, skill, and save associated with it and to even succeed you need a specific allotment of feats and traits.

It's why no one never does anything but "I attack and end my turn" in Pathfinder. Trying to do anything else other than direct attacking with no thought, flanking being the most complex thing anyone does, will invariably result in failure, or it will be less efficient than just directly attacking the enemy.

It's not an RPG about characters and adventures. It's a statistics game testing your minmax abilities in combat crawls.

>t. someone who played pathfinder for 5 years and desperately tried to defend it before giving up and admitting it was a shit system

>>53895601

But if someone unironically makes a claim that a single-dice system is the best one, then they're a fucking idiot. I don't have a doctorate in statistics, I didn't even finish my undergrad, and even I know that.

>>53895674
It sounds like you have suffered through shitty DMs, and I pity you.

>>53895849
>Orb of Annihilation
So an artifact? An artifact the wizard has no way of creating? I mean yeah, that's just on the level of GM fiat and not actual play because the wizard has no way of acquiring a Orb of Annihilation short of the GM handing him one.

>>53895811
The GM was right to ban gunslinger, it is broken and doesn't work right.

Speaking of gunslingers, anybody here had a gunslinger explode his starting firearm at level 1? Shit's hilarious, they literally lose all their class features because they rolled poorly.

>>53895839
Line 5 of the pastebin, CRB page 169.

>>53895907
>Line 5 of the pastebin, CRB page 169.
Oh, the fact that's he's old. What are you actually gonna use to age him further. I don't have the CRB on me so just fucking link the rule in one of the online sources if you're referring to a spell.

>>53895788
>every fucking time making valid criticisms holy shit haha

What's your point, fuckhead?

>>53895931
Spell? I'd wait 2d20-8 years. He's harmless if he doesn't ever get within ten miles of me, and I can trivially ensure that never happens. Meanwhile, I can do all my wizard things from the comfort of anywhere.

People defend this shitty system religiously yet they somehow think that this shit
>>53895907
>Speaking of gunslingers, anybody here had a gunslinger explode his starting firearm at level 1? Shit's hilarious, they literally lose all their class features because they rolled poorly.
is somehow acceptable.
>"Well Billy, you rolled up a character and spent an hour or so building him, but because you rolled shit, you get to spend the rest of the campaign as a lump until you either kill yourself or roll up another character."
Like holy fuck, they aren't even viable.

>>53895967
That's not really a victory, that's just avoiding the fight. Would be more of a draw because not as if he's trying to hunt you down. You were the one set the task to kill him. If anything that's a loss on your end because you didn't do anything to impede him.

>"I let him live out the rest of his natural life."
Is a really fucking stupid response to 'how do I defeat X'.

>>53895901

Locate Object, Scrying, Divination, Wish just all off the top of my head, considering I haven't played PF in years.

I mean, as a lvl 20 wizard, I'll always win. Because I can cast Time Stop and Wish. Also, he's not immune to mental effects? Great, so, Bestow Curse + Dominate. Or, TK him into the sun.

>>53895878

What do you think is the best system?
Going off your posts something dice pooled.
Unless you've got other ideas.
Regardless I'm interested to see it.
Please educate us plebs what your system is.
Seriously.

>>53895851
You assume wands can be found like mushrooms.
>muh item guidelines
those exist to let the DM estimate if it makes sense an item is found in a city of that size.
The DM has no obligation to make you find wands. Generally if none selected an healer he will probably do, unless the players and the GM together agree that is the difference in tone and danger the campaign demands.

You are so focused with "muh cleric has better stuff to do" that you did not step and looked at things with a wider perspective. You are limited in imagination, this is why you are so mad at a clunky but nice RPG.

Also, "the cleric never heals" is a gross overgeneralisation and when someone states that I assume the GM is not challenging enough. Or more probably is repeating GITP or RPG.net -tier memes.

>>53896002
It worked in Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater.

>>53895992
Even good gunslingers aren't viable. They rely too much on arbitrary grit points to do anything and their guns hit like fucking wads of toilet paper if you run out of said grit points.

>>53895936
see >>53896031
also, is still a stupid statement. The cleric is powerful, can work very well for the party just with buffs/heals.
I suggest you people to play more and try more combinations of classes and campaign.
Assuming you can find people that play with such repulsive individuals.

>>53896008
>Locate Object, Scrying, Divination,
Unfortunately he's non-locatable by any of these means.

>Wish just all off the top of my head, considering I haven't played PF in years.
Wish for what?

>Also, he's not immune to mental effects? Great, so, Bestow Curse + Dominate.
Unfortunately -7 won't be enough to put him into the save range where you can reliably dominate him. Dominate maxes out at DC 43. With -7 from bestow curse you're stuck at him having a +41.

>>53896031

>wands arent broken the dm just needs to not give them to players!!!

What kind of logic is it that a game flaw isn't a game flaw if the DM just ignores it? In any Paizo-published adventure or campaign wands of healing take huge precedence over healing classes. It's how they intended their shit game to be played. Saying the DM can just not use them and acting like that means the system isn't flawed is just dumb, anon.

>>53896057
When the wild Pathfinder shill is confronted in his natural habitat, he often resorts to namecalling and denial to defend himself. Such evolutionary mechanisms have long been the lifeblood of fellow Pathfinder shills.

>>53896016

To fill D&D's niche?

Earthdawn 4e.

>>53896040
>arbitrary grit points
>arbitrary
>>53896008
>TK him into the sun.
Range long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)

>people saying clerics are healers
I can tell you people don't play the game. Clerics have a class feature that let's them heal, a class feature that barely matters compared to the fact they're a prepared full caster. People who say clerics are healers are people who have never actually even looked at pathfinder's rules.

>>53895872
This guy gets it, and while he didn't actively say it, he has also pointed out why 3aboos say 4e has no roleplaying: They are so used to a system where you need to have specific things to be able to do stuff that they look at a system without those things and assume that the lack of actively investing in being able to do something means you can't do it.

>>53896031
>>53896057
>You assume wands can be found like mushrooms.
A wizard can just MAKE the damn things as a class feature and after a certain point, the XP costs become drops of piss in the ocean because you can easily make it back (and more) from one encounter.
>You are limited in imagination
Yeah, because most times, going with your gut leads to unviable classes who become worthless after 5th level.

>>53896098
>a gun only works when it has intangible points attached to it
>Sorry Timmy, I know you just blasted that Orc in the face with a shotgun point blank, but you didn't use a grit point so you deal a nice total of 4 damage. Luckily the Rogue can freely stab it and deal 24 damage to kill it. Don't you wish you were playing another class Timmy?
>t. paizo

>>53896097
>Earthdawn
It's like Shadowrun, but worse.

>>53896070
You wish to have the Sphere of Annihilation transported to his location from wherever it is, or vice versa if your DM rules that the 9th part of the spell doesn't apply to objects.

>>53896073
They allow it so you are not FORCED to play healers. This is such a simple concept that even a limited person as you are would grasp it, if you were not blind for the hate.

>>53896093
You started with the namecalling. Control your rage and reread your posts.

Also, I find amaze the amount of acid this board spreads concerning anything 3.X. As if a 3.5 wizard raped them in the ass or something.

>>53896131
You know none of gunslinger's deeds add damage right? Damage is a static thing for gunslingers and doesn't rely on grit.

Shit like reload speed and trick shots rely on grit, and trying to hit touch AC from far away.

>>53896097
>>53896134
I obviously thought he'd say GURPS but his answer was even more hilarious.

>>53896108
They also get good BAB, heavy armor, and armored casting, making them much better spellswords and fighters than actual spellswords and fighters.

>>53896070

You locate the Orb of Annihilation, fucktard.

You wish for him to die permanently. Or to auto-fail the next save he makes. Or to have all his equipment disappear. Or to send him to the heat death of the Universe. Or literally whatever the fuck, because Wish is OP.

Bestow Curse can make him auto-fail the next roll. Or maybe it's not Bestow Curse, but whatever spell does do that.

>>53896157
I honestly thought he was a closest grognard and was going to go full-on OSR shill while posting about moral degeneracy.

>>53896131
4 damage point blank means that you have no idea of how to build a character. And I don't mean tough stuff, I mean basic retard ranged feats.

>>53896153
The point is guns function as weaker crossbows without grit points. There's no point to using them unless you have grit points.

>>53896152
I don't know where I namecalled you, so I'm sorry if I did.

A lot of people on /tg/ hold 3.pfers in contempt because Pathfinder players tend to be incredibly self-righteous and elitist pricks who grasp at straws to defend their awful system while at the same saying every other system is inferior and only retards would play anything but Pathfinder. 3.5 itself is often held in high esteem too.

>>53896134
>>53896157

>Pathfinder shills stumped by my argument
hurrr it's bad

Burden of proof is on you shit-for-brains. Prove to me how Earthdawn 4e is inferior to Pathfinder.

>>53896008
Picking Wish is a poor move, as that easily turns into a "who does the GM like more" fight, just like any variable spell.

Bestow Curse + Dominate sounds good, but relies on getting past his will save the first time (for Bestow Curse), and even then caps at a -3 to his Will Save. If he's got decent will its unlikely that will actually take effect until after he's gotten in at least a round -- and if you didn't Quicken that Bestow Curse he's likely to get a round regardless.

As for telekinesis: if he weighs more than 375lbs (the cap) it doesn't work. If he makes his will save or you fail spell resistance, it doesn't work. And best case scenario, you can't move him more than 1200' from you, which means most likely he's risking at most 20d6 damage from the drop -- unless you're flying with him, at which point you better have already cast your "survive in vacuum" spells (you can't after you already cast or you'd lose concentration on Telekinesis), you'll have to stop around 2000' up, when you start to run out of air (and he's probably got a higher con score than you, so it'll be a while before he's concerned), at which point you do... 20d6 damage.

Wish still works, but Wish is expensive and relies on GM fiat. Don't bet on Wish.

>>53896177
There are easy ways to kill someone with Wish, but just so you know they get a save to resist those effects. It's easier just to move the Orb onto him since the Orb has no will save.

>>53896137
>Sphere of Annihilation
So you need to use an artifact? The things that are literally supposed to be GM fiat level of power and often do not exist due to being specific to settings. Literally that is not under the wizard's power, but making use of something he has no way of making or guaranteeing having around. Even then you fuck up with the use.

>Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.

The test from the spell.

> or vice versa if your DM rules that the 9th part of the spell doesn't apply to objects.
If the GM ruled it did it would be against Wish's rules. Objects are not creatures.


>You wish to have the Sphere of Annihilation transported to his location from wherever it is,
He gets a save, you need around a DC 45 to reliably make him fail it, which is essentially impossible for a wizard to obtain.

>>53896152
>As if a 3.5 wizard raped them in the ass or something.
Many people came from games where either the party or the GM was a fucktard who ran the game as intended, leading to an unhappy situation for everyone else involved.

It's hard to feel excited for a system where your fun is measured in levels and spell slots as opposed to hours.

>>53896124
>the XP costs
wew lad I even took you seriously
my bad, utter retard

>>53896098

Fine. Quickened TK+ Gate to the Sun.

>>53896195
>The point is guns function as weaker crossbows without grit points. There's no point to using them unless you have grit points.
That's entirely wrong, you're a retard if you think this.

A level 5 gunslinger is FAR better at dealing damager than a level 5 crossbow fighter, even without grit points. Crossbows are the bottom of the ranged totem pole. Guns are below bows however.

>>53896189
Sorry, if you eat up 5 ranged feats you might deal 8 damage then. Meanwhile Larry the Barbarian is hitting for 40 damage in a single attack with multiattack and obliterating the entire mob before you can even reload.

>Because remember kids! Ranged weapons have to be weak because that's realistic. Magic needs to be strong though because we say so! -Paizo

>>53896202
Wish has written rules for what must be absolutely allowable under the conditions of the spell. One of them lets you remotely move any person anywhere on any plane to any other place on any other plane.

Sure they get a Will save, but you don't have to even be in the same plane as them. You can keep doing it until you win.

>>53896200
>pathfinder shills

Are you alright anon? You seem confused. We're tearing Pathfinder apart.

>>53896212
>"As you can see, the wild shill has detected danger. Emptying the contents of its bowels while wailing at the top of its lungs, it flees into the warm caress of the paizo forums where it knows it'll be safe."

>people using 'I have a sphere of annihilation' as an argument
That's on the tier of just asking the GM to jack you off under the table. The wizard can't make the SoA, how is he gonna get one?

>>53896195
>A lot of people on /tg/ hold 3.pfers in contempt
Nope, every time 3.X is named 2-3 noisy spergs of /tg/ cannot restrain themselves.
I am actually a big critic of PF and its designer because I think that even 3.X is my favourite system the "quality fixes/amount of time" ratio is abysmally low.
But I hate the raging autists like the ones in this thread. For them, only 1 game style is the good one, and then they complain.

I hate the mechanical complexity of Pathfinder, but I just can't get behind the level of open-endedness for some things in other systems, like 5e. Some people in this thread have said that "The DM just decides" works great and is preferable to having rules for everything, which I kind of get...but only if you have a good DM who isn't biased.

I can list countless times that i've been told no to "DM decides" bullshit while other people who manage to have a more quirky 'hilarious' characters are allowed to do the most ridiculous bullshit ever.

Not saying that this can't happen in systems with more rules (LOL YOU ROLLED A 20, YOU JUMP ALL THE WAY TO THE MOOOON!" happens regardless in terrible groups), but it helps a bit.

>>53896231
A level 5 gunslinger is going to be hitting for more than the local barbarian actually.

If your gunslinger was low damage you build him REALLY poorly.

>>53896248
You can just divine the location of one and go take it. You can even use conjuration to ask a celestial being where one is if you're truly desperate.

>>53896231
gee I do wonder if there is some advantage is engaging the enemies at a distance
but no I must be wrong.

>>53896200
First, I haven't played Earthdawn 4e and neither has anyone else. I played Classic and it was garbage filled with bloated garbage rules and a case of caster supremacy that paled in comparison to anything 3.x/PF ever had.

>>53895768
A few classes can grant them to teammates or animal companions.

>>53896205

Nope. RAW only if you're replicating a spell or if you're transporting someone against their will.

So, okay, 2 Wishes. The first one is that he fail the next save from a Wish spell cast by me. The next Wish spell is to transport him to the heat death of the Universe. Since I have a 3rd Wish spell, I'll conjure up the most tasty beverage in existence, and relax.

>>53896210
Nah, most of that bullshit is counterable and it comes out only if the wizard player is an asshat that reads forums, looks for spell combos and then spergs if the GM does not allow that specific
favorable interpretation of the spell.

>>53896294
By RAW those are just the only wishes that can't have their intentions subverted by fate. If you wish for something that's simple as well as impossible to subvert, it must still occur.

Basically, your Wizard should brush up on his contract law first.

>>53896231
>level 6 gunslinger
>attack routine
>Pistol/Pistol/Pistol/Pistol
>1d8+11
>average 62 damage
>hits touch AC

>level 6 barbarian
>Axe/Axe/Bite
>1d12+19 (for axe)
>1d6+12 for bite
>average 64 damage
>hits normal AC

>>53896219
>the sun is another plane
>the sun is a creature

and please don't say "fire elemental plane". The moment you quick telekinesis, the fighter has enough stuff to resist that fire.
Also see above for the weight.
AND you have to go vs the fighter CMD.

Good luck Theorywizard . You people are pathetic.

>>53887370
>Nobody's had a character who didn't fit exactly into the little corner their class branch led them in to.

This is exatcly how I like it. Fuck off if you want to be a special snowflake kitsune shaman who talks to spirits because she is lonely (I saw this played before I swear to god)

>>53896281
And that's under the assumption that artifacts are lying around without people already owning them.

You first have to steal a Sphere of Annihilation, if one exists, from whoever currently owns it.

>>53896246
You are just humiliating yourself. You are incapable to interpret the game in a manner different from the worst RPG.net spergs, and then you are perma-mad that your bullishit is countered and you have no actual arguments.
And every time even by accident 3.PF is named in a /tg/ thread, we have to hear your bullshit all over again. Is tiresome to be honest.

>>53896288

See, I know you're lying out of your ass, because it had no caster supremacy.

And yes, 1st edition ED was bad, I'll agree with you. Which is why I said 4th.

But it wasn't my main point. You asked me a statistically better system than PF, and I gave you one. It's a very good system for modeling heroic fantasy that uses a dicepool mechanic.

>>53896333
Ah-ah-ah. We're going RAW only. Therefore, I can Wish for it, and we're assuming a permissive DM (because otherwise the autism fighter won't work). Therefore, I can wish for whatever the fuck I want, and the implication is that it will happen, because the DM will always say yes.

>>53896294
Pan-Galactic Gargle Blaster?

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>>53896288
>and neither has anyone else

Once in a blue moon you read a burn on tg that makes you giggle.

Thanks anon.

>>53896376
Wishes are dangerous. Are meant as last resort or narrative tool, not for spergs that failed to use properly any other wizard spell in an hypothetical scenario.

>>53896337
>attack routine: quad attack
>attack routine: bite

Notice how the only way to get good stuff out of the classes is to follow a very specific routine and buildset.

Pathfinder shills themselves proving that none of Pathfinder's options matter and that you must follow strict parameters to every single character you make and each of them must line up with the three useful build types.

>>53877583
Where are all of the negros in 5eg?

>>53896305
At the same time though, even though every system has exploits, only 3.PF has exploits that are so bad that a single player can warp the entire campaign around themselves while the GM is forced to focus on them just so everyone else can STILL end up sitting on the sidelines waiting for a turn that will never come.

Like one time we had a campaign where the GM was dumb enough to let someone play a master summoner and the two sessions we played, everyone in the party was forced to roleplay as a pack of dogs because he summoned dozens of monsters each round and we never got to play our characters.

And no, saying "well you can just ban the class" doesn't cut it, the campaign is already ruined, and it's because paizo thought that having a class that can summon so many creatures that he BECOMES the action economy was a good enough idea to leave beta-testing.

>>53896289
And if you're not one of those classes?

>>53896413
Those were the first builds off the top of my head. I could come up with others that do similar damage. Really you're just trying to strawman to distract from the fact you were BTFO.

>>53896281
That is if the sphere exists. First your GM needs to decide you know spheres of anhilation are a thing, then he needs to decide there is one in his setting and finally, that the sphere is somewhere you can reach and get it.
At this point you're not relying on your character being better but the GM allowing you to get one.

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>>53877583
Ahahaha

>>53896337
Going to have to justify getting 4 shots in a round, pal.

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>PFags will defend this

>>53896376
That's a ridiculous argument, because the spell description of Wish literally says what I just told you.

>You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment, at the GM's discretion.)

There are only two negative outcomes: literal but undesirable fulfillment and partial fulfillment. If you formulate your wish simply and clearly so that there cannot be either, it succeeds. Those are the rules.

>>53896416
But you can use the class solo.
Anon, you got a toolbox and used the hammer to screw and the screwdriver to hammer.
And now you complain.
Can you suggest me a polite answer? Because I have none.

>>53896340

Okay, fine, Plane of Positive Energy, which will kill you dead due to your body getting double HP.

>>53896281
So unless you specifically research Spheres of Annihilation you by RAW have no idea what they are or how they work.

>>53892938
That didn't matter. They changed "occult magic" to "psychic magic" in a very calculated move to damage DSP's sales, and wouldn't you know it? That's what happened.

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>>53896447
>>53896451

>>53896376
>See, I know you're lying out of your ass, because it had no caster supremacy.
Caster Disciplines are inherently superior to others. That's a fact. Prove me wrong. I don't know if 4e does it any differently, and I don't care because it's garbage in, garbage out.

>>53896449
>Bab +6/+1
>Two Weapon Fighting
>Rapid Shot

Done.

>>53896375
The only time anyone has an issue with 3.PF is when retards like you come in to claim that it has no issues or that the issue is with us for bringing up the system's faults.

There are plenty of objectively WORSE systems out there that make 3.PF look like a nice romp through the bubblegum forest, but you'll never hear about them because anyone who actually plays those garbage systems aren't stupid enough to DRAW ATTENTION TO THEMSELVES and earn the ire of the tabletop community.

It also doesn't help that most of the community has the mental age of a spoiled toddler due to diagnosed mental problems.

>>53896465
And unless autismo's setting has all of the precise magical items and class features he chose, and unless his character knows how to acquire and use all of them properly, his build doesn't work.

>>53896452
If we're going by setting raw off book wishes also cause Aeons to come try and buttfuck you for even thinking about making off book wishes. Because that's just what Aeons do.

>>53896452
Well, go on, try to make a wish that can't be fulfilled literally or partially.

>>53896484
Except you can't, you know, reload. Since both your hands are full. So you only get two shots.

>>53896458
>But you can use the class solo.
And somehow this is acceptable in a COOPERATIVE TABLETOP RPG?

Like fuck man, what kind of sad human being do you have to be to make a class that can be played without the aid of a fucking party?

Are we arguing about if Pathfinder is bad or not?

Also I'm not seeing anything wrong with the character concept. It sounds like some bizarre tribal superstition.

>>53896459
You still have to explain the CMB roll.
You can quicken true strike, but in that case you will not quicken telekinesis.

>>53896406

>NUH-UH YOU CAN'T BEAT MY SPESHUL SNOWFLAKE WITH A BASIC SPELL

As I said, there are other options. Locate Object = Sphere of Annihilation+Teleport + TK. Gate to Positive Energy Plane + TK.

But why would I do that? That requires me bending the rules of the game OOC. I would rather bend them IC, because that's what I am. I am a wizard and I break reality by my existence. You have your cheap tricks and magic items, whereas all I need to do is cast 2 of my 9th level spell slots to literally kill anything in existence ever. Hell, by the virtue of our hypothetical permissive DM? "I wish I am the DM now." I become the DM, and I immediately ban all the things that make your autism fighter work. I win. Again.

God it's great being a wizard.

>>53896097
>Earthdawn 4e
It takes all the worst aspects of Shadowrun's mechanics and WFRP's lore, blends them in a setting that's RIFTS levels of moronic and calls it a game. Luckily, no one plays it.

>>53896511
So this can be solved in over a dozen ways, including but not limited to:
>pepperbox pistols w/ quick draw
>prehensile tale
>extra arms
>slate spiders
>a familiar

>>53896452

The key words there are
>at the GM's discretion
And for the purpose of this, we're assuming a GM that always rules in favor of the player, because otherwise the autism fighter can't work, because any sane GM would say "Fuck off."

Ergo, I can wish for whatever I want, and I win, because the GM is always going to say yes.

>>53896485
>claim that it has no issues o
never claimed that, just that they are over exagerated by people that take as a personal crusade bashing 3.PF at the minimum chance.
I would discuss happily improvements and simple GM strategis but there is no room for constructive criticism here.
If one says that PF is perfect I will laugh.
If one says wands are always available, I will laugh.

>>53896540
>TK
How are you going to be his CMD?

>Sphere of Annihilation
It's an artifact, by raw you don't know how they work or what they are.

> Teleport
How you gonna teleport him and make him fail the save.

>>53896592
>by people that take as a personal crusade bashing 3.PF at the minimum chance

That's a persecution complex if I've ever seen one.

>>53896526
What are retarded human bean you must be to select that specific variant of that specific class?
Use it if you solo. You do have friends?
Don't be a smartass because I bet what happened was no accident.

>>53896582
> because otherwise the autism fighter can't work
Why? Because he has big numbers? Literally your argument of why he should be banned is being afraid of big numbers.

I know it's shit but it's all people around me play.

I'm going to buy Starfinder, too. Maybe they've learned something after all these years?

>>53896479

>I'm going to ignore any argument about the new system because I have a bias against it

Blow me. It fixed that issues, and in fact, some caster disciplines are now weaker than some of the martial. However, the point is that you can't have caster supremacy where everyone is a caster.

>>53896592
You sound like a butthurt SJW
>"It's not that PF is flawed, it's just that everyone else loves to shit on it for NO REASON BAAAAAAAAAAW!"
If one says that someone disliking their system is a personal crusade, I will laugh, then worry about your mental health.

>>53896540
You are repeating the same points and not addressing simple stuff like what people asked about CMD.
Overall, you are the basic "3.X dos not work" retard; you use the most favourable interpretations for spells, ignore some detail like the CMD above, then complain spells are broken.

>>53896604

I don't. I cast it on the Orb. And I know about it because I'm a Wizard and have a stupid high Knowledge: Arcana.

>>53896564
Pepperboxes just delay the issue.
Quickdraw means you need to sink absurd amounts of WBL into your guns, AND you're dropping valuable guns on the floor for literally anyone to take.
Your familiar can't get rapid reload, so enjoy gagging on +2 misfire from shitty ammo.
Extra limbs require being a freak of nature using custom race rules.
Slate spiders aren't available at 6th level's WBL.

You know what Pathfinder is really good at? Getting people to the point they froth at the mouth with rage. Holy shit everyone in this thread is fucking butthurt.

No seriously, even making this thread highlights how fucking butthurt people are. Pathfinder 90% of the time stays in their own thread, and yet someone has to shit up the board with a thread specifically about being butthurt about the game?

>>53896621
>What are retarded human bean you must be
Are you having a stroke?

>>53896627

No, because at this point, as GM, I would not consider him a pure fighter.

>>53896655
You fucking retard, you cast TK on the Orb.

>>53896681
3.PF is only good at two things, turning roleplayers into number-crunching robots and generating unprecedented levels of salt.