How do we fix Chaos?

>>53850040
Bait thread. Hidden and called the police.

>>53850040
Stay consistent with their supposed weaknesses like the Shadow in the Warp or Necron tech. Expand on duality of each of the Gods and what they represent but also stop using them as fucking characters when they should be background plot devices.

>>53850047
Try to deny that any of the shit mentioned in OP isn't true. Chaos is fucking. Boring. They ruin the setting by being so damn overpowered, it's ridiculous.

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>>53850099
>muh endless numbers

The number of Bloodthisters is a set number. Get rekt. Now delet this.

>>53850040
crash a tyranid fleet into the eye of terror

WHF: Revert everything starting at the End Times going forward. Bring back the Law Gods as their antithesis.

40k: Revert to what others have said. More consistency, more logic, more akin to how things used to be several years ago. Get rid of this "lol ex dee chaos is chaotic so it never should make sense lol ex dee chaotic evlulz"

>>53850125
Over 16 million bloodthirsters? Each capable of commanding millions of lesser daemons? For all intents and purposes, those kind of numbers drown anyone, they're practically endless. Orks, Tyranids and guardsmen all get described as endless and we know there aren't infinite amounts of them

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>>53850099
>They ruin the setting by being so damn overpowered, it's ridiculous.

this right here, and this is why older Warhammer will always be the best. starting with the end times in fantasy chaos in that universe became absurdly overpowered, and then it rapidly spread to 40k. in 2007 chaos was still powerful in both universes but it wasn't omnipotent, it had powerful enemies, and it could be beaten. fantasy's golden years ended with their largest invasion getting smashed and their strongest chosen leader getting human, elf, dwarf, and greenskin boots up his ass. 40k the chaos gods used to fear the necrons and the emperor and were outright terrified of the tyranids.

i'm not going to be a faggot and say make chaos weak. they need to be powerful and threatening, they need to stand on their own like any other faction. but since the end times they've simultaneously lost weaknesses and and have been made more and more powerful to the point of stupidity.

>>53850232
>those kind of numbers drown anyone

I don't think so. The number of Necron Lords, Ork Warbosses, Tyranid Hive Tyrants is far above 16 million. Daemons are outnumbered.

Why aren't you delet this?

I've heard that in WHFB back in the day their Knight guys were rare and powerful units that stood head and shoulders above most Chaos or Chaos allied units. I think it'd be pretty interesting of Chaos Space Marines were like that: a rarity rather than the basic backbone unit and significantly more powerful than normal SMs and other Chaos units to signify their status as First Founding badasses who fought alongside the Emprah and the Primarchs before giving themselves over.

Unfortunately that would not be compatible with most existing fluff and would require a radical redesign of their army. Oh well.

Make them more Lovecraftian. Don't characterise them as simple things like characters. Make them forces of nature. Don't anthropomorphicize them. Make them just be. Monolithic but mutable. Emphasize their multifaceted nature.

>>53850125
>The number of Bloodthisters is a set number.

Wrong.
That's only the number in the eight hosts.
Others exist outside it.

>>53850255
CHAOS. Limited numbers? Fuck you chaos makes more. Because Chaos Chaos Cahos Hacoos!

>>53850282
>Make them more Lovecraftian.
Not everything needs to be lovecraftian. Its so overplayed and overdone and ALWAYS misses the point of lovecraft.

Lovecraft isn't a big spooky alien monster. Its entropy. Dark holes are more lovecraft the 99% of all "Lovecraftian" work in the past 20 years.

And Oh sure, fix Chaos being dull because of no hard limits by going the MOST "No hard limits we win anyway fuck you" direction.

>CHAOS ISN'T INTERESTING BECAUSE IT COULD KICK MY ARMY'S ASS.

Cry harder jellybabbies.

>>53850171
What's the recommended number of survivours?

>>53850288
Each GD is a shard of his or her god. If the god creates too many he dies.

>>53850283
Where is your source?!

>>53850321
The gods sent their GDs after an elf king in Fantasy fluff because they were too afraid to fight him in person and that's official, not even made up or interpreted. A knife-ear had the gods of all chaos too scared to come fight and this knife-ear madman killed all 4 GDs in a 4 v 1 duel. GDs really are extensions or avatars of the CGs themselves, so even the death of a single GD is a significant loss.

>>53850330
Slayer.
The Gods have a dumping ground of daemons and Be'lakor takes command of them.

>>53850321
Chaos Chaos Chaos Fuck you doesn't have to make any sense!

And tell me that's not how it functions?

>>53850342
>The gods sent their GDs after an elf king in Fantasy fluff because they were too afraid to fight him in person and that's official

Bullshit.

>>53850343
>Be'lakor

Nufluff is not Trufluff. Argument invalidated GW shill.

>>53850342
Not really. The Chaos Gods fear nothing. It's just near-impossible for them to cross into the material world.

When Slaanesh attempted to enter the Material World in the End Times, it was said that his entry would unmake everything.

>>53850357
The Eight Hosts in nufluff though.

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>>53850354

Turns out it's actually not, and it turns out the same Elf killed demons like Yarrick killed orks. http://warhammerfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Aenarion

>mfw this is probably no longer canon

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>>53850364
>in the End Times

>>53850377
>Turns out it's actually not,

It is though.
I've read the story of Aenarion many times and the Chaos Gods were never scared of him.

>>53850385
Actual fluff defeats fanfiction, not matter its origin.

as a person who likes what chaos stands for in 40K, I agree with>>53850265
I think that chaos marines should be more powerful. they are GOD sponsored super humans vs regular super humans [no the emperor does not count he has not taken an active role in his angles directly]
and as a point they should be fewer because in the eye on of the key tenents is "survival of the fittest or, pic related

and for fucksake make slanesh less a whore and more of a civilised person thing like the old world one

Simple. Drop the "Chaos is united against the Imperium" theme. Focus on Chaos being a fractured mess of groups of varying sanity pursuing their own goals and/or serving whichever god they serve. Working together when it suits them, fighting among themselves when that suits their goals better.

Have followers of the same god sometimes fighting each other because they disagree on how to best serve their god. Or maybe because they agree that killing each other serves their god the best.

Sure, they will still hurt the Imperium. Left unchecked they will destroy it. But the destruction of the Imperium is not their goal, only a side effect. Maybe have some who want the Imperium to survive, eg Khornites who want it to keep providing foes for them to kill.

>>53850436
>Simple. Drop the "Chaos is united against the Imperium" theme. Focus on Chaos being a fractured mess of groups of varying sanity pursuing their own goals and/or serving whichever god they serve. Working together when it suits them, fighting among themselves when that suits their goals better.

>I didn't read the new 8th ED lore

The infighting and suddenly breaking up of the united Chaos forces is the only thing that prevented the Imperium from collapsing fully. Read the new rulebook lore section.

>>53850232
>16 million bloodthirsters
You can't simply calculate 8^8 based on that text. A full command chain is (8^0+8^1+8^2+...+8^7), roughly 2.4 million. But it doesn't say how many Bloodthirsters there are in the 1st Host, and how many of those chains there are.

>>53850040
>muh endless numbers

Daemons aren't infinite. Each daemons created takes away from the power of its patron.

>muh just as planned

You mean "I totally meant to do that, you didn't win"?

>muh yoir stakes don't matter we already won lmao

See above.

>muh so much more powerful than anything else in the setting nothing stands a chance

Just like every other faction. Tyranids are just a vanguard, the real thread is yet to come. Orks just need a strong leader to unite them and they could wipe the galaxy. Necrons haven't even fully woke yet.

>muh can nothing personal your entire defenses and army with warp bullshit

Apply system wide null field matrix, like in IA vol. 12.

>>53850436
>Simple. Drop the "Chaos is united against the Imperium" theme. Focus on Chaos being a fractured mess of groups of varying sanity pursuing their own goals and/or serving whichever god they serve. Working together when it suits them, fighting among themselves when that suits their goals better.
>Have followers of the same god sometimes fighting each other


This shit happens all the time.
Like in the brand new edition when the Rift tore the galaxy a new ass crack the various warbands told Abaddon

>BYE

and went off to do their own shit.

Then you've got Typhus and Mortarion arguing how best to serve Nurgle.

Do you even read Chaos fluff or just complain about it?

>>53850040
Chaos has never been interesting because the Chaos they were plagiarized from was uninteresting, only "on purpose" to "make a point."

Moorcock is a fucking hack is what I'm saying, a pinhead who is contrary for the sake of it. I bet he posts here.

Anyway, the best you can do is let them lose, often even. Chaos's shtick is inevitability, after all. They can afford losses. Make the big names actual characters with flaws who can lose, and when the fans roundly reject a char - like Archaon the Nuthin Personnel or Failbaddon - get rid of them.

The long defeat is difficult to use as a literary device, since it tends to disinterest and disinvest fans.

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>>53850301
Entropy isn't Lovecraft. An inescapable sense of of immeasurable smallness is Lovecraft.

To make Chaos Lovecraftian is to make them truly the inevitable. Make the chaos gods these things that will subsume the whole of everything. It doesn't matter to them if it takes a day or a week or another 40,000 years. It will happen and they neither want nor care to speed it up.

With that you then must wonder why men and Space Marines follow then and push the galaxy further down that inexorable path. Some do it for power. Some do it for the thrill....

But some... Some do it because they have surrendered to the inexorable. Some do it to hasten the inevitable. To drag the galaxy kicking and screaming into whatever the forces of chaos will do with it. What they do with it isn't necessarily bad, but it will be different, new, and most likely painful for all, even them. At least as whatever amounts to pain for something like them.

>>53850265
I always use them that way.
Old Lost and Damned rules supported that list and in 8th you can do it again.
But CSM feel like regular marines with spikes, not 10k yo veterans. I want them to be rare as fuck and badass like custodians. We chave cultists zomies and lesser deamons to fill troop choices anyway.

>>53850471
>Orks would wipe the galaxy if united
Already proven completely false, they tried this and had their god emperor ork and primorks, eldar level technolgyl, and managed to get to terra itself. They lost to an imperium that was far more incompetent than the current one, and didn't have to deal with Necrons, tyranids or major daemon attacks. Orks BTFO

>>53850040
One thing I'd like to see for CSMs specifically is more weapon and wargear options. Right now, way too much of the CSM armoury is just the loyalist Marine armoury with half the shit cut out of it. Maybe tap that Forge World well and bring some more weapons from 30K to 40K, like how Volkite weapons were adaped from 30K for the Cult Mechanicus book. And then add some more bizarre warp tech and Dark Mechanicus fuckery, stuff that doesn't don't have any obvious Imperial roots.

Make chaos more insidious. Less "OMG WE CAN'T DEFEAT THEM EVAR!!!111onetyone," and more "Don't look straight at it or your eyes will grow teeth."

Stories about people whose blood won't clot after coming near a khornate daemon, or whose nerves are too sensitive to function on the day-to-day because of a secret slaanesh cult nearby. Make it an existential threat, because the imperium's normal response of overwhelming military force does dick against an insidious threat.

Make the very act of being near chaos more corrupting, but in an all-out war, chaos should get its shit kicked in due to poor supply, infighting, poor discipline, etc.

>>53850040
Reboot the entire setting, with a commitment to giving all factions reasonable and genuine weaknesses as well as strengths, not playing favourites with any particular faction just because they're popular, and slapping down power-creep as much as possible.

The only reason 40K's fluff is such a clusterfuck right now is because it's been going through DBZ-style power creep for the past decade. If the setting didn't take itself so desperately, laughably seriously, this wouldn't be a problem. But it does, and so we're forced to choke down terrible melodrama between character with all the depth of a puddle and all the likeability of a chest infection.

>>53850040
Easy. Each time a god empowers one of their servants, it's an investment of a small portion of their power. If said servant takes a melta blast to the head, that power is gone and their god diminished by the loss. Yes, they can invest more power to bring them back in hopes of recouping their investment, but that carries the risk of it just happening all over again. In other words the Chaos Gods lose when their servants do, not "hurr durr Chaos winz even though they got massacred".

>>53850125
>each an incalcuably vast throng of blood red killers
>incalcuable

Yeah, that's totally a set number that we can figure out with a little math.

>>53850524
Well hey, I think one of the biggest problems with Chaos is the idea that they'll always win in the end with no serious hope for survival, so making them 'inevitable' doesn't make shit better for me.

Basically, get rid of ADB and everything he wrote. He's literally the source of everything wrong in 40k that isn't Cruddace's fault.

>>53851136
Go to bed, Ward. You're still awful.

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>>53850040
make their contradictory moral nature more prevalent

make their unity less prevalent and goals more futile

make their numbers and powers not limitless

make the interactions of the gods less personal

make the pantheon more populated and varied

make their endgame not completely inevitable

actually make their endgame more like a side effect of their own natures than a goal they strive for; this chaos apocalypse bullshit should be reserved to just the guys that want to use chaos for that (like abbadon and archaon) not what the entirety of chaos should be about, as it fits more as the other side of the coin that is reality

also spend a few lines to explain how chaos is not a force that manifests in its absoluteness in every corner of the multiverse ever but only surfaces as reflection of the relative situation both in qualitative and quantitative terms

finally give them more advanced looking stuff like guns and daemonic biomechanical shit, fantasy is dead and buried, they might as well drift off from the necessity to keep an appearance that fits both settings

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>>53850040

>when Nidfags call Chaos 'boring'

>inb4 OP responds saying he isn't a xenos player

>>53850428
>>53850456
"Actual" fluff doesn't beat old fluff, not when the "actual" fluff is total horseshit. It's also not even fanfiction if it's lore that was lore at a previous date, and I think a lot of people who dug the old lore will disagree that the new lore is anything to follow or admire.

>>53850389
>please don't come fight us just go home we'll leave you alone -chaos gods
>fuck you assholes i'm done and we're closing the warp -aenarion
>shit send in the armies send in the demons send in everything -chaos gods
>ah shit you have my sword and just killed a ton of demons -khaine
>oh shit he has khaine's sword and killed a ton of our demons yeah greater demons time aspects of us assemble please stop him or we're dead -chaos gods
>fuck you -aenarion + how to tame your dragon
>fuck we lost and almost died fuck elves -chaos gods
>nice work buddy too bad i gotta curse you -khaine
>fuck -last words of aenarion

That's pretty much exactly how it went down.

>>53851296
Tyranids are meant to be boring, though. Chaos isn't: Chaos is supposed to be interesting, and in doing so it ends up being even more dreary and stupid.

>>53850040
The funny thing is almost every suggestion here aside from rebooting the franchise is how Chaos actually was in older editions.

Fuck End Times, Fuck Age of Sigmar, Fuck Modern GW. They ruined it.

>>53851162
he's right tho

you could tell ward had fun while writing the fluff, but ADB daddy issues are destroying both him and his work

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what is this shit

>>53850099
That's the nature of GW selling strategy - each new release has to be more over the top and uber than the previous models, or people wont buy them. Thats why they have to reset the game with a new edition every couple of years, to start the cycle again.

>>53850232
>>53850255
i'm going to concede on the fact that such high number actually make sense on the scale of the galaxy (not in AoS though)
but that mean there is more bloodthirster than there is space marines in the galaxy, which is ridiculous

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>>53851421
one game play thread, one newfag baiting a discussion by trying to apply logic to 40k and one thread questioning the quality of the fluff.

also
>not surpassing the panda

>>53850255

What is the source for there being over 16 million Necron Lords?

>>53851457
Those three seem like they were made by the same person for similar trolly reasons.

Just ignore everything after the Overlord left. It's how you get all the best 40k lore.

>>53851478
The Necron codex says that there are hundreds of Necron lords populating each of the Tomb Worlds. The tomb worlds are said to be millions.

You do the math.

>>53851335
Nice fanfiction you got here.

Aenarion opposed the Caledor's plan.

>>53851421
welp I geuss I'm reading both of those now
and i don't mean the threads

>>53851552
>Aenarion opposed the Caledor's plan.

Yet eventually reasoned that it would be the only answer since killing the Chaos Gods would upset the natural balance and break the world.

>>53850733
>this

>>53851561
Wrong, Aenarion had no intention of killing the Chaos Gods. It's impossible. He just wanted to protect his people until it was clear that even with the sword his people would eventually be consumed by Chaos.

Stop with the headcanon. The Elf, dwarf, and other Gods of Order were crushed by Chaos.

>>53851558
Just so you know, Pink Sniper is straight mostly, it's femdom-orientated and there's some gender switching and futa. Pink Sniper Maniax is gay or well, bisexual.

Gas Carnac.

>>53850040
A warp entity that represents order?
Or maybe make Chaos a bit more ambigious, and not entierly evil.

Or both, and maybe make the ip more morally ambigious, chaos space marines reject the constraints and laws forced upon them which ultimately reduces their identity to nothing more than soldiers, while ordinary space marines accept it, perhaps as to something they believe to be an necessary evil?

>>53851610
>Stop with the headcanon. The Elf, dwarf, and other Gods of Order were crushed by Chaos.

Except they weren't.

Your only basis for this is "Yeah well everything you said happened but it was clear that Chaos would win." No, it wasn't. Aenarion defeated four Chaos invasions and later four Greater Daemons, alone. Chaos lost when fighting him.

The only headcanon here is your own, and if Chaoswank headcanon is your thing then feel free to move on to End Times, Age of Sigmar, or recent 40,000.

>>53851402
>ADB
Yeah it's reall fucking sad to see what that guy is doing to the fluff. I don't understand why he has so much influence over the lore nowadays.

>>53851853
>A warp entity that represents order?

Those exist or at least they did before GW dun fucked up.

Fantasy had Gods of Order and the Emperor in 40k was hinted at becoming a God of Law. Granted that in Fantasy the Gods of Order were much less malevolent than the Gods of Chaos but their end goal of destroying Chaos and having eternal order didn't actually look as good as you'd think.

I'd give a bit more focus on the non-marine forces of chaos to make it less purely marine on marine action.

That and make it more concrete that faith, purity and exorcisms do actually do very good work against the forces of chaos. Make it more clear the role of the ecclessiarchy in such things. Helps make chaos a bit less constantly overwhelming in fluff and also helps the ecclessiarchy feel like it has more purpose after a lot of time where it's just the 'And Zoidburg' of the Imperium.

>>53851972

It would be nice to bring that sort of idea back.

With the whole 'The emperor is less and less there' you could do something cool with St Celestine on that front. Have her empowered as the avatar of this growing god of light and order the emperor has given form.

That + New Eldar God + Maybe rescue Isha and you've got a pretty nice trio of gods of Order to oppose Chaos.

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>>53851972
>>53852026
>chaos gods encroaching
>trio of order gods desperately fighting
>but they're outnumbered
>tzeentch cackles as his plans come to fruition
>just as the day seems lost a blinding light flashes across the galaxy
>another entity emerges and impales tzeentch's skull
>the light fades and the entity can be seen
>it's motherfucking S O L K A N

>>53852073
You really think Tzeentch would be so basic as to have a skull?

You guys are arguing about fluff strength, and none of you are even in the same lore spheres. It is like comicbook nerds arguing about 7 different batmans without ever realizing the batmans are different except to say the one they like is the only true batman, then going right back to being retarded.

>>53852229
You're not wrong.

>>53852073
>>53852146
And behind Solkan another flash of light appears.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_9SsX7HJhE

>>53852229
Warhammer fluff has always been incredibly inconsistent to begin with, bordering on comic book levels. Everyone has their own idea of canon and even official canon has always contradicted itself or had thematically nonsense shit happen to the levels of continuity breaking. Arguing Warhammer lore is possibly worse than comic nerds arguing who's more powerful out of 19 different Spidermans.

>>53852073
>distand laughter of a feathery nature
>wisper bearly heard by psykers around galaxy
>"Just as planned"
You lost again.

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>>53852341
Tzeentch is truly unprankable.

>>53851881
Fuck off with your heacanon. I got the Elf lore here with me. The Elf Gods INCLUDING KHAINE were defeated by the Chaos Gods.

In fact, the bulk of the Daemons were attacking the Elves. They were busy with Be'lakor's wars and the Lizardmen extermination.

Eat a dick you lying bastard.

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>>53852073
We have been through this a thousand times. Solkan is a lie. He doesn't exist and never existed.

>>53853138
>uses 8th ed lore
>gets extremely defensive and angry when people discuss lore otherwise

I like Belakor memeposters like >>53853163
but people like you just come off as weird. It's like every 8th+ ed player is in denial that nearly everyone who played older editions hates 8th+ ed.

>>53850040
Just start reading other stuff than Warhammer fluff. Soon you will see how poorly written Warhammer is.

>>53853220
I have plenty of the old material already. Please lets fact check you. Cite where Aenarion was going to destroy the Chaos Gods in personal combat.

>>53853220
It's Carnac.

>>53850099
Just a few years ago, people were regularly joking about Chaos being the least important threat in the setting. Hell, your OP post could be damn near applied to the Imperium at the time, since they were never threatened meaningfully by anything.

>>53853220
You can't reason with Carnac because he is autistic. Non of your arguments will stick with him and he probably thinks he is trolling you.

>>53853276

>Cite where Aenarion was going to destroy the Chaos Gods in personal combat.

Probably when he took the cursed sword of the God of Murder and set out to destroy the Chaos gods in personal combat.

>>53853345
You mean your lack of evidence and headcanon will cause all your arguments to fall on their face.

Notice that when threatened with fact checked, that bitch of an anon stopped talking.

>>53853373
kek

>>53853378
Carnac thinks that Warhammer has canon. It's best to just ignore him.

>>53853279
>>53853345
>it's carnac

Who?

>>53853373
Wrong, he didn't do that. After his wife died, he delivered himself to Khaine via the sword and returned to his kingdom protecting it from the constant onslaught from the daemons that never ceased until he eventually realised that not even the sword can protect his people and went with Caledor's plan.

You are so shit at the fluff. Go losten to Aenarion's audio, read elf novels, or for fuck sake just read the army books.

The only dude who set out to slay the Chaos Gods was Grimnir and he failed.

>>53853424
A resident autist that thinks he is the shitposting king. He will show up and ruin any fluff discussions with an avalanche of sperg posts.

It's the reason I stopped talking fluff on /tg/.

>>53853425
Continued....

Notice that there is no citations. Speaking about the "oldie" lore and yet fails to deliver anything to support himself. A total poser, I say.

>>53853425
>The only dude who set out to slay the Chaos Gods was Grimnir and he failed.

Grimnir slew a Daemon Prince which severely pissed off Khorne, recovered from lethal injuries, then went into the Chaos Wastes and was never heard or seen again.

The outcome is ambiguous, much like Sigmar wandering off into the north.

>>53853452
Actually, Carnac is anyone who is right going by what we have seen in previous threads and here. People just call anyone who they cannot argue against Carnac.

>>53853452
Oh, so he's the guy who likes to use the word "poser" alot. I never knew he was a chronic spergposter to that extent. Now I know to ignore.

>>53853462
The outcome is not ambiguous. We get to see his fate in "Gotrek and Felix : Slayer".

He realised that his quest to slay the Chaos Gods and was a fools errand and was struck fighting against the daemonic refuse of the Realm of Chaos until he was found by Gotrek.

>>53853477
This is like the first time I used that word ever. Nice to see that mistaking other anons for other anons. Goes to show strawmanning and being feeble minded is your thing.

>>53853492
>We get to see his fate in "Gotrek and Felix : Slayer"

End Times canon doesn't count and isn't canon, Carnac. We've been over this.

>>53853518
Your opinion doesn't matter. Canon is canon like it or not.

Getting tried of your fallacies. And STILL NO CITATIONS.

>>53853467
Carnac is just synonymous with That Guy. He is any asshole that lacks self awareness.

>>53853549
Not really. A lot of anons were called Carnac for simply stating fluff. Ask around in the 40K general.

>>53853549
He's just your typical "I was only pretending to be retarded" troll that was entertaining in 2009.

>>53853582
Those guys really ruined /tg/.

>>53853575
>called Carnac for simply stating fluff

No, called Carnac for constantly and angrily using new fluff in fluff arguments pertaining to older lore.

Fuck, you've even posted in the Warhammer Fantasy general discussing Age of Sigmar fluff and calling people posers when they tell you to leave, then saying you've beaten them in their discussion.

You're trying just a little too hard.

>>53853614
Yeah, a Carnac is annoying because he is a fluff lawyer and he refuses to entertain other peoples thoughts.

So they are attempting to derail because they lost the argument.

Lets go with what's written in the fluff. Aenerion was no threat to the Chaos Goda. He was a threat to their conquest of the world and even not directly. Caledor's ritual was the real threat to the Chaos Gods plan's.

Aenarion defended the ritual until the end but his efforts weren't the thing that sealed the deal. Be'lakor daemon prince wars in the north and the Lizardmen wars drew most of the Chaos armies away from Elven Island giving Caledor enough time and room to enact the ritual that created the Vortex.

Aenarion and his dragon eventually died from their injuries after putting back the sword back to its place. Despite the essences of both Elven Gods in him, Aenarion died like a bitch. I mean compare Nagash and Sigmar greater daemon tally with Aenarion. Disgraceful. Cool guy though. His angst is sexy.

The old lore doesn't differ much from this. You can just drop the Be'lakor line.

To me chaos is just edgy marines with spikes and baby punting

Tyranids have more character imo

>>53853614
Different anon and again it seems you want to strawman.

>>53853658
You mean entertaining their headcanon. We have a total bitch here who ran away when threatened with citations. A minute ago he was so cocksure about Aenarion and whatever. He disappeared!

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>>53853138
>>53853276
>>53853378
>>53853425
>>53853453
>>53853467
>>53853492
>>53853502
>>53853540
>>53853575
>>53853658
>>53853684
>>53853722

There he is. There he goes again

Look everyone he posted it once again! Isn't he just the fluffiest guy around?? Oh my god.

I can almost see your pathetic overweight frame glowing in the dark lit by your computer screen which is the only source of light in your room giggling like a little girl as you once again type your little 'LORE' post up and fill in the captcha. Or maybe you don’t even fill in the captcha, maybe you’re such a disgusting NEET that you actually paid for a 4chan pass so you just choose the picture. Oh we all know the picture, the uh Be'lakor fanart, isn’t it? I imagine you, little shit, laughing so hard as you click it that you drop your Doritos onto the floor. But it's ok, your mother will clean it up in the morning. Oh that’s right, did I fail to mention? You live with your mother! You’re a fat fucking fuck up and she’s probably so sick of you already. So sick of having to do everything for you all god damn day, every day, for a grown man who spends all his time on 4chan posting dumb pretend retarded memes. Just imagine this, she had you and then she thought you were going to be a scientist or an astronaut or something grand and then you became a NEET. A pathetic chaosfagposting NEET. She probably cries herself to sleep everyday thinking about how bad it is and how she wishes she could just disappear. She can’t even talk try to you because all you say is "POSER, BITCH".

You became a parody of your own self. And that’s all you are. A sad little man laughing in the dark by himself as he prepares to indulge in the same old dance that he’s done a million times now.

And that’s all you’ll ever be.

>>53853722
One of my favourite parts of the fluff was the speculation. The objective canon in itself is rather boring compared to the implications.

Whose self-insert is Be'lakor, anyway?

>>53854011
Tom Kirby

>>53853870
tl;dr

>>53853891
There is speculation open ended fluff. And there is objective fact fluff.

The things being discussed are the latter.

>>53852408
Well the only thing that can mess the Tzeentch plans is something like Tyranids or old Necrons. An unstoppable force driven by single goal that will never relent.

No matter what you plan it will just roll over it's own defeats and victories without any care.

>>53854272
I dunno, the tyranids aren't that hard to manipulate. The imperium managed to start the entire Octarius war just by steering them in the right direction

OP here. Those of you autistically clinging to new lore and those of you saying new lore isn't canon, you're equally retarded. Stop shitting up the thread with your pointless arguments

>>53854272
>>53855003
That wasn't necessarily manipulation of the Nids, it was manipulation of the Orks. The Hive Mind doesn't really have any truly solid plans. It'll infiltrate with Genestealers and such but it's not like being steered the wrong direction hinders its progress. All it desires is to completely devour the galaxy to feed and grow its horde. Sending it to the Orks was a beneficial thing for the Imperium, but also for the Nids. The Orks may be more numerous than any other faction in the galaxy, but the Nids' full strength vastly outnumbers them, and every dead Ork gives strong Ork genetic material that empowers the Nid horde. The Hive Mind was probably pretty happy that the Imperium sent one of its fleets into Ork space once it realized that its horde could gain plenty of strength by eating at the Greenskin Buffet. It takes some seriously heavy losses, heavy in Nid terms, to really hinder the Hive Mind's plans. Even 1000 - 1 losses against Humans or Orks is still a tactical victory for the Hive Mind by sheer attrition.

I wonder if there's any non-cringe art out there personifying the Hive Mind. It's got a personality, it's got goals, it can talk to its Nids and to others. What would it look like? A gigantic Nid? Something like a Brainbug from Starship Troopers? Some kind of microscopic individual?

>>53850040
>adding "muh" makes it uninteresting

>>53850342
don't they, like, respawn?

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>>53850312
Shit fucking blows up everywhere forever

>>53850040
>How do we make them interesting again?
Troops that don't look like old dogshit would be a great fucking start.

>>53853870
Jesus mate, calm down. Want some tap water or something?

>>53855914
In pre-fucked Fantasy lore daemons could die fairly easily. The respawn element was still there but it was harder for them to come back, took longer, and required power from the Chaos god associated with them, so while your small daemons could be brought back bigger ones took a lot more effort. Greater Daemons were exceptionally rare, as in around Aenarion's time those were probably the only four, since in Fantasy GDs are much stronger than in 40k as they're extensions or aspects of the CGs and possibly controlled by them directly. Those four getting killed was equivalent to them losing several armies of lesser daemons. Being slain by Khaine's sword I think it's reasonable to say they couldn't come back - in Fantasy magical or spiritual weapons like that usually mean a permanent death, which is why the Chaos gods were a little nervous when they heard Aenarion was coming for blood - so the GDs probably had to be remade from scratch, which would be even more time and power consuming.

In 40,000 I think it's a similar deal, but the forces of Chaos are much more numerous there along with every other faction so even if a daemon doesn't respawn it's really not that big of a deal since lesser ones can be created on a daily basis with ease.

>>53850040
Retcon chaos being the base state for the warp. Make it the product of the fucked up mind of every species in the galaxy. Confine the chaos to this galaxy with warp beyond being quiet and untraversable.

>>53856342
>as in around Aenarion's time those were probably the only four,

Dude, fuck off with your headcanon. Come on cite sources. Let me fact check you.

>>53853870
Sounds like a personal problem.

>>53854047
Because neither should have ever had anything to do with Warhammer ideally?

>>53858316
That works for me.

>>53850594
>Orks BTFO
>implying everyone didn't know the Orks were going to lose from the beginning due to the Beast's Waaagh!! taking place in the past
>implying the Beast actually united the entire Ork race in the first place.
You're fucking dense.

>>53854099
Carnacs sucks because they think canon matters more than head canon in a game that is entirely about your dudes.

If I could I would travel back in time and make sure that Black Library never existed. Those guys have shitted up the fluff beyond recovery.

>>53860372
Every time Carnac starts shit, just remind him Be'lakor's entire book line and Canon literally doesn't exist outside of his own shitty books and Be'lakor's biggest achivement in Fantasy was being Archaon's bitchboy.

>>53860372
>Carnacs
Wait, there's more than one Carnac?

Gah.

Also, the other reason they suck is they think that new Chaos-fanboy lore completely overrides the other non-Chaos gods in the Warp.

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>>53855499
>I wonder if there's any non-cringe art out there personifying the Hive Mind. It's got a personality, it's got goals, it can talk to its Nids and to others. What would it look like? A gigantic Nid? Something like a Brainbug from Starship Troopers? Some kind of microscopic individual?
Pic related is the best I could find.

>>53856342
>In 40,000 I think it's a similar deal, but the forces of Chaos are much more numerous there along with every other faction so even if a daemon doesn't respawn it's really not that big of a deal since lesser ones can be created on a daily basis with ease.
I remember from what I heard in Einserhorn and some Grey Knights/Ultramarine fluff that you can permakill deamons, but it needs:
>Have a powerful Blank.
>Being full of Holy Fury.
>Being Emps or being blessed by him.
>A long arse ritual involving psykers and knowing the True Name of the Daemon you want dead.
For that, most prefer either seal the biggests jerks or just banish them with enuff dakka.
>>53860451
Don't forget the rock (Fantasy/AoS) and the Imperial Fisting (40K)

>>53860520
What I love about Carnac is he takes the Liber Chaotica books at face value.

When they're in Canon the raving ideas of a Lunatic who was lead through the Warp by the chaos jokes as a cruel joke.

Just like he accepts everything Be'Lakor, the great fool of chaos, on his every word.

The Irony is palpable that the chaos gods were basically all powerful infantile creatures, given only to their whims that will eventually end them.

>>53851939
Makes me sad because he had a pretty good start with his earlier books, and the more recent have been hit or miss

>>53851077
Then maybe 40k isn't for you bud.

>>53860680
No he's quite correct. Chaos was at it's heart always the eternal laughter of cruel gods.

But making it sound like Chaos is actively planning or having a goal defeats the point of them.

>>53851881
You are delusional. The only one I see wanking about anything in your discussion is you and your elf wank.

>>53860732
Actually, he's not delusional. Aenarion managed to fight back chaos so hard, there was an uneasy peace over Ulthuan. It's right there in the High Elf Books since like 6e.

As for "Oh but the gods of order were killed and BTFO by Chaos"

That's End times stupidity, and not true because Grimnir was fucking chaos up for eternity and the Dwarf gods survived.

>>53853684
There you go now stop your sperging.

>>53860762
I pretty much agree with everything you just wrote, but Anerion being a threat to the chaos gods and them not showing up out of fear is fucking fanfiction.

>>53851077
You miss the point. They are inevitable, but they don't care. What's more is followers aren't. They don't care about the followers either and the further they go down their dark path the less the followers care. Hell, that could even be made a plot point with Abbadon. Both the reason fails the time and the reason he refuses to become a Prince.

>>53860694
>But making it sound like Chaos is actively planning or having a goal defeats the point of them.
This, its fucking stupid that the gods have this great game they're all competing against each other in, yet they unite faster than the imperium whenever the prospect of invading the material plane comes up. It would be bettering the great game was their only real agenda, and occasionally the spill over into the material world because it's more fun there.

>>53860556
Oh yeah, it's basically like with the Necronomicon in the Cthulhu mythos. It's not meant to be objective at all and it's just a bunch of references and observations when it's not used for summoning shenanigans.

Nerf chaos gods to be on par with gork/mork or eldar gods pre-fall. Having them orders of magnitude more powerful than any other entities is both pointless and stupid

>>53853870
Stop feeding the trolls dude

>>53855499
>I wonder if there's any non-cringe art out there personifying the Hive Mind. It's got a personality, it's got goals, it can talk to its Nids and to others. What would it look like? A gigantic Nid? Something like a Brainbug from Starship Troopers? Some kind of microscopic individual?
There is no personification of hunger.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ep_1k-lOto8

>>53865120
No it's not. Chaos represents power without limits that disregards the laws of physics. To nerf them in the fluff would ruin the point of why Chaos is a threat.

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>>53850040
Chaos needs to be chaotic, unstable, and not quite so omnipotent. More attention should be given to the lesser-known chaos gods, and the big four should always be under threat from underlings trying to displace them.

Just make chaos beatable.

You don't really need to change chaos in itself, but as all villain, it must be self-hindering.
Despite being the most powerful thing in the galaxy, chaos by its own nature turns on itself at the worst possible moment.

Maybe you can't defeat chaos entirely, but heroes should be able to exile it, destroy its minor manifestation and close the access it has to rhe world for good.

Speaking of fantasy, you know how end times could end better? With Gotrek and Grimnir teaming up and actually closing the Chaos Gate forever.

To be a compelling character, chaos should be a terrible yet beatable threat. Furthermore, chaos worshipers should be shown as actual believable individuals who know full well what chaos is and its nature.
Less archaon and bel'akor, more lord mortkin

>>53867052
>it must be self-hindering.

Chaos it totally self hindering, do you even read the fluff?

>you know how end times could end better? With Gotrek and Grimnir teaming up and actually closing the Chaos Gate forever

Then it wouldn't be the End Times, would it? It would be ignoring all the fluff from before, not serve as a catalyst for the new game they were launching and be a decidedly ordinary "and the heroes won" story. The End Times was refreshing in that the bad guys actually won for once.

>Less archaon and bel'akor, more lord mortkin

Archaon and Be'lakor are far more believable than Mortkin.

>>53850524
>It will happen and they neither want nor care to speed it up.

Then why should they have armies and demons?

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>>53850040
Make Chaos less "Chaotic Evil Mega-Satan" and more "Unknowable and Inscrutable cosmic horrors intrinsically linked with every human desire and emotion"

Chaos should be WIERD. It shouldn't make SENSE. We should know LITTLE about it, beyond snippits that suggest at greater horrors.

Chaos should be the primordial soup. The origin of everything but also the dissolution of all we know. And it's calling us back into it's depths like a siren.

I get that Chaos is/was supposed to represent the fiends and devils seen on metal album covers, but that is at odds with the sci-fi parody/kitchen sink elements of the setting. Either go full metal, or don't go metal at all. The Metal demands commitment.

>>53867209
>refreshing in that the bad guys actually won for once

Point of order sir, this is warhammer. The bad guy ALWAYS wins.

>>53867367
Nope. The bad guy is supposed to win in the end, but for the sake of continuing the game he always loses.

>>53850099
The setting is not intended to be heroic or inspiring. The point with Chaos is that you can't win even if you by some miracle would beat everyone else.

>>53867558
The point is that it won't matter in the end. Everything that ever was will be consumed by Chaos and the Imperium will just be a footnote in whatever will be left of history. That last stand will just be reduced to a meme for the Dark Gods to laugh at.

There is no glory in being the loser.

>>53867209
>archaon or bel'akor
>more believable than Mortkin

Carnac go kill yourself

>>53867893
Not Carnac but how is Mortkin more believable than Archaon or Be'lakor?

>>53853870
This is one of the cringiest things I've read in my entiremonth
If you want to complain about autistic shrieking don't surpeg the autist you are complaining about

>>53860762
>Grimnir was fucking chaos up for eternity and the Dwarf gods survived.

You idiot. I hope you get run over by a truck. The 8th ED army book of all Elf factions says that the Elf Gods were smashed so hard by the Chaos Gods that they fell into the mortal plane and became mortals (again).

The dwarf gods disappeared one sleeping. The other nowhere to be seen until AoS. And grimnir failing his mission and being stuck fighting in the pit of failure where Chaos throws its failures and exiles at.

>>53867922
Then how can we drive him off?

>>53867988
You can't.

>>53867893
>>53867911
I don't think he knows himself what supposedly makes Morkin believable. He just hates Archaon and Be'lakor so much that he will come on any bandwagon which makes him one of the pathetic anons I know. I mean not being able to defend your position and running is beyond weak.

>"OP: Do you remember when Chaos was cool?"
>The thread can't decide when or why Chaos was cool and there is a lot of sperging out because of it
>Just as planned
Tzeentch, I already know you're OP. Why do you posted three similar threads in /tg/?

>>53868005
Not with that attitude.

>>53867911
Mortkin was one step from becoming the everchosen instead of archaon.
He stroke pacts with all the four gods and went on a crusade to avenge the destruction of his village by hand of the empire.
But immediaely after achieving his vengeance he decide to die a man instead of becoming a pawn of chaos. Mortkin knew exactly well what chaos was and what chaos is all about and decided to flip them the bird once the chaos gods allowed him to achieve his goal

No autistic tantrums or stupid "hurr must kill world" like archaon.
No fanwank about incredible and absolutely idiotic plans about twisting fate and come out asthe victor.

Mortkin tricked the chaos gods the only believable way one can actually fuck with omnipotent beings, depriving them of their prize


Say what you want about chaos in fantasy and suck archaon or belacuck's cock as much as you want, neither of them got shit on Lord Mortkin

>>53867626
Why would Chaos want to destroy the Imperium? It gives the Chaos gods a galaxy full of potential psykers that routinely pumps out enough war, misery and all those other great emotion to feed off and fight against.

>>53850040
Are you talking about tyranids? Your points sound like tyranids.

>>53868055
The Chaos Gods don't require humanity or this whole galaxy. They have an all consuming desire to destroy the galaxy and move on its their next victims.

The galaxy after all is just one speck of dust in an infinite multiverse.

>>53868048
Okay, but how is Mortkin more BELIEVABLE than Archaon or Be'lakor?
You've told me why you think he's cool, but not how he is believable.

To my mind Archaon was driven mad and is bitter and hateful. Be'lakor is power hungry, jealous and arrogant. To me these characters are far more believable than a guy who essentially won the lottery but on his way to collect his winnings decided that money wasn't for him.

>>53868093
It's implied Chaos will actually erase itself if all its plans come to fruition.

>>53868161
No it's not.

>>53868161
Not really. Time doesn't exist in the Warp. There is no after or before. There is only now. Within the Warp, the Chaos Gods will exist forever even if every universe was consumed.

>>53851939
Unlike most writers at GW who can write worth a damn (King, Spurrier, even Abnett has over gigs outside of BL), ADB stayed because he's a 40k nerd through and through. I mean, the guy brags about his 40k cred (I played 40k when it was released as the Space Crusade boxset). ADB is just a fanboy who now gets to have a huge say in the canon. Which is how he can bitch about Blood Ravens being more or less confirmed as 1K Son loyalists, saying how it ruins the mystery and makes the universe feel smaller, while at the same time say how "Chaos is the Chaos Gods, there is no Chaos Undivided", or how he made a huge chunk of his writing career writing out Lorgar and Angron into these Byronic anti-heroes while making the Emperor be 100% pure dick.

>>53853424
Autist or shitposter who pretends to be an autist that cherrypicks lore to push his certain view, especially if said fluff contradicts earlier material. Has probably existed in some form or another since 2010 or something when he was trying to push the whole Blood Feud angle with Craftworlders and Dark Eldar because of Soulstorm. Also was likely TIDF.

>>53868093
What? Chaos is intrinsically tied to the galaxy and the creatures in it, as they were created by them. the Warp is essentially a mirror dimension, where the strongest emotions of the sentient races created the gods. They can't move on from the galaxy any more than the stars can. Khorn literally looks a bit like an orc because the orcs are so warlike that they influenced the god of war. Without sentient emotions to create echoes in the warp the gods, and all of chaos, would be nothing .

>>53868235
>They can't move on from the galaxy

They can. They're multiversal creatures.

>>53850733
this shit right here

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>>53856249
>>53856419
>>53865262
>>53867922

Can people really not taste the pasta?

>>53868189
How will they feed themselves? Even if Chaos can't technically win because there are probably infinite universes they would not have any kind of food

>>53868256
They really can't. The warp outside the the galaxy if occupied by immensely powerful beings that view the big 4 as squabbling children. think of the warp and the universe as the opposite sides of a coin. The current chaos gods are manifestations of the emotions of the sentient creatures of the milky way.

>>53868112
That he actually had a purpose to fulfill. He had a set objective he wanted to reach and was forced to make more or less binding pacts with terrible entities to reach it. To me, it's far more believabale than the supposed anti-christ and a daemon that loses his own consistency between the books he's featured in.
These two guys literally have everything granted to them. They are predestined entities that can do whatever they want and even the fanbase doesn't have a say in it when they're specifically asked to decide how things go (storm of chaos).

Mortkin was a literally who that lived in his hut fishing and enjoying life, then the empire arrived and literally razed his home to the ground and killed his family, so he embarked in a journey of revenge because by his traditions he had to reap wergild for the empire's crimes.
Mortkin actually shows that chaos worshippers aren't plain saturday morning villains but actually can have motivations beyond RAEG and "just as planned". Human motivations that one can more or less understand

>>53868235
Nope, The Aledari even debated escaping the galaxy and going to another one. They dismissed this because Chaos knows no limits. It will follow them to the next galaxy or be already there waiting for them. (source Beast series)

The Chaos Gods are not tied to this universe and that tiny galaxy. They are eternal and omnipresent in the multiverse.

>>53868313
The Wars in the hellscapes of the Warp and the countless enslaved souls will do.

Or they can just create a new universe/plane of existence. Nurgle is adept at creating life you know.

>>53868329
>aeldari

Just stop breathing

>>53868321
>They really can't.

They can.

>The warp outside the the galaxy if occupied by immensely powerful beings that view the big 4 as squabbling children.

The Dark Brothers are specifically the most power beings in the Warp. Do you have any source for this?

>The current chaos gods are manifestations of the emotions of the sentient creatures of the milky way.

They are the mental manifestations of creatures across the multiverse.

>>53868354
Aledari is their true name. Eldar is just the corruption of that word.

>>53868388
No they're just some shit GW came up with to copyright the name
I'm all right if you want to follow the new fluff. Just avoid supporting its most idiotic aspects

>>53868322
>That he actually had a purpose to fulfill. He had a set objective he wanted to reach and was forced to make more or less binding pacts with terrible entities to reach it.

Archaon and Be'lakor have purposes as well. Archaon wanted to destroy the world and Be'lakor wanted to become a god.

>Mortkin was a literally who that lived in his hut fishing and enjoying life, then the empire arrived and literally razed his home to the ground and killed his family, so he embarked in a journey of revenge because by his traditions he had to reap wergild for the empire's crimes.

No, Mortkin was a Chaos Lord long before the Empire raised the village he was born in. Them doing so caused him to invade the Empire, but he wasn't some bumfuck peasant before hand.

>Human motivations that one can more or less understand

How can you not understand Archaon or Be'lakor's motivations? They're entirely human. There are plenty people who lust for power.

...Maybe it should have remained what it was before it even was called chaos.

I know the original set "Sorta" created predators that fed on Psychics and such, but fuck chaos as a whole concept. It's a shitty villain.


The Tyrannids already do the whole "Oh shit an unstoppable doom force is coming" aspect well enough. And I also hate the tyranids for its utterly bullshit non-understanding of how evolution works, and its almost calvinball application of "We adapt".

But Chaos is like Tyrannids but with all their lazier elements amplified by 40(K).

>>53868329
yah, remember the coin analogy? there will always be chaos as long as there are sentient beings. There will always be the warp. But, what happens to the specific part of the universe called the milky way if all sentient life is gone? no more emotions, the chaos gods in the milky way go to sleep, the warp calms down and stops trying to kill everyone. If the elder go to another galaxy, they literally take the problem with them.

>>53868371
>The Dark Brothers

who the heck are the dark brothers?

my source is my ass and some BL book or fluff piece i read. I definitely know I read it, but you might not consider BL to be proper canon.
But getting back to my point, the 4 chaos gods we know live in the milky way and the milky way only. There may be other chaos gods in other galaxies, but they are the other galaxies problem and as far as we know the nids ate their source of emotions. So, once again, why would chaos destroy the very thing that feeds and creates it?

>>53868490
>who the heck are the dark brothers?

Khorne, Nurgle, Tzeentch and Slaanesh.

>my source is my ass and some BL book or fluff piece i read. I definitely know I read it, but you might not consider BL to be proper canon.

I do, but you need to tell me where you read it. Just saying that you have is meaningless because to my eyes you're just lying.

>the 4 chaos gods we know live in the milky way and the milky way only.

Again, wrong. They're multiversal beings.

>>53868490
>but you might not consider BL to be proper canon.
It's Carnac.

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>>53868490
>yah, remember the coin analogy? there will always be chaos as long as there are sentient beings. There will always be the warp. But, what happens to the specific part of the universe called the milky way if all sentient life is gone? no more emotions, the chaos gods in the milky way go to sleep, the warp calms down and stops trying to kill everyone. If the elder go to another galaxy, they literally take the problem with them.

Nope, that's your fanfiction.

The Warp doesn't work like that. The Chaos Gods do not require sentient life to exist. Their goal is to destroy all life, time, and space. Remaining as the only thing standing.

>my source is my ass and some BL book or fluff piece i read.

You mean misread or didn't read at all.

The Beast Series confirms that the Chaos gods are not tied to this galaxy.

Getting tired of newfags.

>>53850040
you are the wire guy, aren't you?

>>53868055
Because Chaos being straight up insane can not act in a practical manner. This is why they require champions like Horus to unite them. Otherwise they just do a lot of random damage all over the place. This is what Abaddon is doing. He is basically the babysitter of countless insane egomaniacs.

>>53868586
Actually, Horus was just a puppet and didn't unite shiz.

The Chaos Gods used him as a distraction to complete their real objective which is the destruction of the Imperial Webway.

Abaddon is the uniter, Horus was weak. Horus was a fool.

>>53850283
Do 8 to the power 8 that's the number of blood thirdters

>>53850288
But if chaos kills everyone then there's no emotions so it just stops

>>53868672
Nope.

>>53868528
>The Chaos Gods do not require sentient life to exist.

Yes they do.

>>53868688
Prove it.

>>53868692
>"The Realm of Chaos was formed as the emotions of mortals (be they anguish, desire, hatred, or pride) pooled together in the psychic mirror-reality of the material universe known as The Warp. Such was the power of these emotions that they eventually formed creatures which over time gained sentience, resulting in the Gods of Chaos. As the races of the material universe grew, so too did their hopes, dreams, rage, wars, loves, and hatreds. All of these raw emotions served to fuel the growth and power of the Chaos Gods. Eventually the gods reached back, into the dreams of mortals, and since that time they have been working to influence the physical realm and its myriad races."

Without that mortal life, they can't exist. Because no emotions.

Source is the Daemon's codex.

>>53868692
see>>53868528

Also we have seen daemons from the End of Time where all life have ended. Like The Nurglite Dragon who fought Girlyman and that Tzeentchian time traveling daemon that Abaddon met.

>>53868513
>I do, but you need to tell me where you read it

I genuinely don't remember where I read it. I'd give you my source if I could, but that specific part is stuck in my memory

>>53868528
Yeah I've read that paragraph too. but I've also read all the other stuff that runs completely contrary to that. Killing the emperor might be their ultimate goal but the nature of chaos is generally self defeating and contrary. However, I haven't read this beast series, maybe it sheds some amazing light on the matter, maybe it is just another conflicting source in a pile of conflicting sources. Either way you are a retard for thinking that the chaos gods weren't created and sustained by mortal emotions.

>>53868717
My Mother gave birth to me.
I don't need her to live now though.
See >>53868528
All life can end and Chaos will still exist.

>>53868717
Linked wrong post. See >>53868719

Nope, Chaos does not require mortal life.

>>53868724
>I genuinely don't remember where I read it. I'd give you my source if I could, but that specific part is stuck in my memory

Well I'll tell you now you're misremembering, because I've read very broadly and can say I've never read that.

>>53868724
>I'd give you my source

Dude, fuck off and don't waste everyone's time, you coward. Yo have nothing to offer but your fanfiction.

>>53868761
>>53868755

Believe me or don't, at this point in the argument I'd love to find the source and tell you to kiss my dick. Give me a few minutes

>>53868848
I don't believe you.
I won't until you can provide a source.
Where are you checking that could give you a result in a few minutes?

>>53868875
google, what else? I'm not going to skim through every 40k book I've ever read to win an argument against a retard on the internet

>>53868922
Then kindly fuck off.

>>53868922
Surely you must have a more precise idea than that?
Was it a novel, a codex?
Was it old or new? Do you remember any character names? Any specific factions mentioned?

>>53868938
fuck you its 1:00 am on a Sunday here and I just spent my night arguing with someone that thinks chaos isn't fueled by emotion

>>53868965
Best bet is the inquisition war series, followed by Harlequin.

>>53869001
>Best bet is the inquisition war series, followed by Harlequin.

It's not in there and they are Heretic Tomes. They are removed from canon.

Sir, you are a liar.

>chaos isn't fueled by emotion

The point is that they don't require mortals to exist, you cuntbag. I meant you lost the argument thoroughly at this point.

>>53869001
>Best bet is the inquisition war series, followed by Harlequin.

Harlequin is part of the Inquisition Wars.
I don't recall it saying what you're proposing.
It's also sadly not canon even if it did.

>>53867206
Since when are they entropy? They're malevolence , greed and other emotions and concepts personified. Entropy doesn't strive for things, fight, keep armies, try to invade things, hate, have followers, or any of those other things. This idea that they are some inevitable, unstoppable force of nature is what's wrong with them. They aren't nids, or gravity, they're just selfish, petty beings that feed of the wants, fears and dreams of sentient beings.

>>53868625
Black Library was a mistake.

File: 1432771087006.jpg (49KB, 479x725px) Image search: [Google]

49KB, 479x725px

CSM need to drop the renegade BS and focus on Legions. They should have stat lines and abilities that reflect an army made of veterans that have fought for 10,000 years but have limited means to replenish their numbers.

A small elite army of expensive units that are highly capable of fulfilling their role surrounded by a ton of cultists that are there for nothing else but fodder.

There wouldn't be a standard CSM unit anymore. You'd have the 4 cult units and Chosen and that's it. Each of which would be much more badass than they currently are.

Berserkers should be there to crack hard units of melee specialists. Noise Marines should be repurposed to be the more agile fighters with a lot of base strength attacks. Nurgle should be the resilient guy meant to stand infront of a lot of fire with heavy bolters and such. Tzeentch should be the type to take huge hits and keep fighting and designed to take out larger targets like vehicles with missile launchers and las cannons etc. Chosen would then be the mix of this able to take combi weapons or power weapons.

All of the above would have an option to upgrade to terminator armor.

Effecively turn CSM into what Eldar should have been with specialist units surrounded by guardians.

>>53850733
I could become a pretty big fan of chaos if this was utilized.

The best way to fix Chaos would be to just remove anything that makes them even vaguely understandable. Remove all of human personalities that have been superimposed upon them, make them truly alien and unknowable. Chaos at the end of the day is supposed to be this all-consuming primordial force of evil that can drive men to madness should they learn even the slightest thing about it, so they should act the part. People need to stop presenting them as being entities that can be understood by the mortal races, as creatures that converse with them and threaten them, as creatures that seem sensible and logical, and start portraying them as the cosmic horrors they really are. No more of this stupid super-villain, saturday morning cartoon-esque crap.

>>53850040
Add Malal/Malice.

If Chaos wins too much, it loses.

If Chaos wins the game or loses too hard, it kills itself.

>>53868672
Age of Sigmar addressed that.

Infinite universes in a multiverse tied to one Chaos. They can destroy as much as they can and never run out.