How did we go this...

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To....this?

>>53845351
codification of a power curve which Bolt was way, way above, along with an encouraged emphasis on creatures and, by extension, a weakening of spells.

I'm really not clear on the point of this bait. Should someone be angry that newer direct damage is weaker than what is pretty inarguably one of the top 5 efficiency cards ever printed, and the only one to make it out of Unlimited?

>>53845585
The moxen and black lotus need to get reprints.

>>53845585
>inarguably one of the top 5 efficiency cards
Well first let's bring up the power nine, followed by much better removal like Swords and Push.

>>53845585
Fatal Push is better removal than lightning bolt, and the format is better because of it. The majority of creatures played in standard have ETB effects, or recursion, or on-death effects, or efficient stat-lines, or any number of things that make them perfectly fine in a format with one-mana removal.

old magic cards are stupid overpowered... magma spray is still better imo

>>53845585
giant growth was in Return to Ravnica

>>53846985
better than open fire that is

I remember my friend's big brother's deck being something like tons of mountains and 4 each of lightning bolt, disintegrate, fireball, ball lightning, and another direct damage spell.

>>53845585

I think the idea was that every color had a "broken" 1 mana for 3 somethings card so it balanced out. Black had dark ritual and so on.

>>53846908

Fatal push can't kill players.

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>>53847025
Killing players isn't removal. Although, on that note, there is nothing wrong with pic related

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>>53845342
>>53845351

It could be worse...

>>53847042
The point is that Bolt's versatility gives it some advantage over Push.

>>53847004
>I think the idea was that every color had a "broken" 1 mana for 3 somethings card
yeah Healing Salve is so broken

>>53845585
>make bolt way better then most creatures
>nerf a bolt to 2 mana and make creatures better
>2 bolt sees a fair amount of play
>nerf 2 bolt anyway
>frontload creatures so much that they vomit value the second they hit the field and give them amazing stats too
>nope 2 bolt still too good

Fuck you

>>53847104
You're right, but that isn't the reason they use for why bolt will never ever see a reprint. No, bolt can never see the light of day again because it's "format warping," and is "too powerful as one-mana removal."

Burn/aggro is an underpowered archetype that deserves to have it's place in the sun. The claim that bolt is 'too powerful' is nothing more than a way to hurt this archetype, even though they keep printing powerful one-mana removal - one mana removal, I might add, that only makes the format healthier instead of more degenerate.

>>53845351
I remember reading an old expression of the rules in the long-defunct magazine The Duelist that mentioned the original thinking behind Lightning Bolt. I believe it was rulesmaster Tom Wylie who explained it. Originally they thought these five cards were ideally balanced to one another: Healing Salve, Lightning Bolt, Dark Ritual, Giant Growth, and Unstable Mutation. (The original idea was that you would use Dark Ritual to pump Pestilence 3 times.) Because they saw the game as a casual game rather than in a professional competitive environment, they completely overlooked the fact that 3 of those 5 cards required a second card to work as advertised. The damage prevention phase hadn't even been created yet, and banding was still not properly understood in its offensive and defensive senses. So Healing Salve was only really good if you had out another creature with 3 or more health, which White did not have, apart from Serra Angel and walls.

After Arabian Nights came out, a friend of mine won a tourney using an all black/artifact deck with Dark Ritual/ Juzam Djinn, and won the time magics and a bunch of other loot. That's when they realized they would eventually have to kill Dark Ritual like they had killed the Black Lotus. Lightning Bolt hung on a little longer because Blue was extremely formidable at that time and they wanted to balance to that.

>>53847259
>Unstable Mutation
It was actually Ancestral Recall as the blue card of the Boon cycle. Once they realized how completely wrong they were, they "changed" it to Brainstorm, which was still wrong but less so.

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>>53845351
You missed a step.

>>53847738
This and Searing Spear were perfectly balanced.

>>53847753
The game was better when you had lightning bolts for 1 and counterspells for 2

>>53847080
That at least draws a card. It's playable in limited.

>fw came back to MTG during the alara/zen standard and everything since felt like total scrubcore in comparison

>>53847042
What is your Spark Elemental going to do against turn 1 Tundra Wolves?

>>53845351
Direct Damage is no longer a supported style.
Hasn't been for years.
It's all about your summons, and things that modify them.
The game has moved more towards other CCG styles which focus on creatures exclusively.

>>53845351
Why are people getting angry over this card like it is the new baseline for direct damage spells? It's not like they've printed this card for five sets in a row or something.

>>53848021
Open Fire is playable in limited just fine.

>>53849002
This, not to mention its easier to balance a creature than a spell. We still get cool spells, look at Cruel Ultimatum, Approach of the Second Sun, etc... but efficiency like Lightning Bolt probably isn't going to happen anytime soon.

>>53847080
Tempted to run this in Mizzix edh

>>53849063
because no matter what color you play, you will bitch when you get even the slightest nerf that makes it imposible to do your turn one win

>>53849097
Cruel Ultimatum is still about creature management.

Approach of the Second Sun is just... Well... It's funny to see a delayed blast win button especially with the current deck management options.

>>53849002
This wouldn't be so bad if direct damage wasn't literally Red's only way of dealing with planeswalkers.

I guess it's not that much of a problem in most formats, but it still triggers my sense of fair play.

>>53847080
I pulled this in a chaos sealed, it wasn't even close to playable.

>>53849442
>This wouldn't be so bad if direct damage wasn't literally Red's only way of dealing with planeswalkers.

Creatures with Haste, turning sideways. ;)

>>53849962
Yes, planeswalkers have zero ways to defend themselves built in and the entire game is incapable of interacting with creatures, the most common card type behind basic lands.
I know you're just messing around but you're still getting to me because this is what people actually say to me.

>>53847304
would brainstorm still be playable as a sorcery? I just want a way to get the bad stuff out of my hand, which i think is something modern and standard really need

>>53850762
playable? probably not, Ponder fills that Niche already
If Wizards was able to retcon Brainstorm to a sorcery they probably would though

>>53847148
Now we just have to wait for a R 1/1 creature with lightning bolt comes into play effect for that full circle.

>>53847167
Bolt makes them have to design everytning around the bolt test while also someone finding out a way to balabce a metagame witg an insane tempo kill spell thats super cheap and can wipe out 60% of your life for 4 mana.

>>53849987
That you for pointing out the inherent flaw with the mtg combat system.

The whole threat/answer matrix wouldnt be needed if creatures could deal eith creatures inherently. All you can do is offer trades really.

It means if you are screwed on board, you have to draw an out card, you cant really stitch togetger the resources you already have on the field to get out of tough moves.

>>53851960
There needs to be an Ambush keyword for creatures or whatever, that lets the creature attack a chosen creature directly instead of a player.

>>53845342
Because red is it's red headed step child.

When red does get something nice, is a creature, because is been decided that burn is "unfun"

>>53851960
Eh, I don't really think that's the answer. There's enough games out there that are Hearthstone style and the idea of just smashing creatures into creatures over and over seems incredibly boring to me. Probably why I've got like three hours total into a well-made f2p game and hundreds into various forms of subpar digital Magic.

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Here's a list of passable burn spells in Standard right now

>Burn from Within
>Chandra, Torch of Defiance
>Dynavolt Tower
>Fiery Temper
>Incendiary Flow
>Shock

Here's some red creatures creatures with Prowess too if you feel the need for some blockers

>Nimble-Blade Khenra
>Soul-Scar Mage
>Stormchaser Mage

And a few spell-focused cards in Izzet colors to help fill the boat

>Enigma Drake
>Mercurial Geists

The question is, is it possible to make a workable burn deck in the current Standard environment? Keep in mind Burn from Within, Fiery Temper, Incendiary Flow, Stormchaser Mage and Mercurial Geists rotate out with Ixalan

>>53847957
yea it makes the deck build more about trade

>>53852039
Yeah, I agree.

I play MTG specifically for weird-ass combo moves. Like Mycosynth Lattice turning everything into artifacts, and then playing Mirrorworks to make duplications of artifacts I play. Obelisk of return to bounce lands into my hand, play them back over again to dupe my lands, etc. It's the weird quirky stuff I like, not just smashing creatures into creatures repeatedly.

>every piece of red Limited burn/removal must be as good as Lightning Bolt

>>53852041
>>>>>>>>burn from within
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>mercurial geists
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>nimble blade khenra

>>53845342
>>53845351
I think it's a punishment for your terrible grammar.

Burn is shit tbqh, good riddance. 12 damage to face for 4 mana is ludicrous.

>>53852264
Yes that's why burn dominates legacy.

Get gud scrub.

>>53852302
>Yes that's why burn dominates legacy.

So play legacy.

>>53850762
Of course it would be. I'd say almost 75% of the time you cast Brainstorm as an instant anyway. Sure it would hurt the card, but honestly it would just make people play the card better. I love when people go end of turn Brainstorm with no fetches in play.

>>53852375
He was being ironic and you're missing the point. Weird how it's the most unintelligent players that are always crying about burn, you'd think they'd flock to the cheap and efficient strategy.

You can't make a card that's more efficient than Bolt. It kills design space and warps the format around it. This is why every creature is Modern is either really good or passes the Bolt test.
Besides, this is draft chaff. Can you imagine having Bolts in Amonkhet draft? I don't think there's enough support for 8 R/W Exerts on the table.

>>53845351
It's so the uncommon Abrade isn't strictly worse in limited.
They could've added a rider of some sort, but nope, just overcosted piece of shit

>>53847167
There's also the fact that Black SHOULD be the best at creature removal.

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>>53845351
I think you forgot this.

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>>53855087
Which is pretty funny because, if we add an "S" to "lash", we get a very decent red removal.

>>53855106
>>53855087
MEANWHILE

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>>53855126
FUCK

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>>53845342

>>53855135
That is even worse than >>53855087 . And I always considered it a trash card, lol.

>>53855177
It's only effective removal in limited. If you're drafting to win, it's a pretty good pick for removal suprisingly.

>>53855929

Limited fucking ruins everything.

>>53855969
I've done my part, explained to a couple of kids why this thing is shit yesterday :P

>>53845342
>>53845351
>why is a Modern / Legacy staple no longer printed in Standard
Hmmmmmmm.....

>>53855141
Shouldn't "Bolas' Defeat" be G/W?

>>53856198
>Jace's defeat is U
>Nissa's defeat is G
>Gideon's defeat is W
>Liliana's defeat is B
>Chandra's defeat is R
>Shouldn't "Bolas' Defeat" be G/W?
How dense are you

>>53856198
Really though, it should be 'multicolored' instead of listing all three of his colors individually.

>>53855969
How dare people play the game in a way I don't like

>>53856363
well it impacts the standard format as well as prohibiting beneficial reprints

>>53851916
>finding out a way to balabce a metagame witg an insane tempo kill spell thats super cheap
We already live in a world with Fatal Push. It's not that hard

>and can wipe out 60% of your life for 4 mana
And 4 cards and a hell of a lot of luck.

>>53847957

Also dark ritual dor T1 lurking evil

>>53854145
They are the best at creature removal, because they're the only colour with sure, 100% guaranteed creature removal.
Blue is the best at countering spells, but that doesn't mean that cards like Guttural Response or Dash Hopes shouldn't exist.

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>>53845342
>There is people that actually like a format without bolt, counterspell and dark ritual

>>53852018
It's called fight
Unless you mean that they still can be blocked

>>53852018
It was called Provoke. But they prefer to use fight effects as a one-time thing.

>>53852426
Burn's fun though, even if it's fucking brainless, you'll never hear me defend it as a cerebral deck.

>>53857879
It would be cool to have a creature with a fight ability like that.

"At the start of your combat phase, ~ fights target creature an opponent controls. Cannot attack or block an opponent that controls one or more creatures.

When a creature that ~ dealt damage to dies, attack any equipment or auras that were on that creature to ~."

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>>53845351
Eh, it's a decent common removal spell for limited with the intention of going against power creep; makes me long for pic related in that it can at least help deal with X/+4's.

>>53852041
a u/r burn deck already exists, it's fevered visions/ thing in the ice

>>53857931
Get out of here with your Hearthtrash inspired ideas.

The people who bitch about burn are the same people who bitch about counters and discard and everything else mildly inconveniencing. These playstyles being in the game and forcing players to confront them winds up making better players.

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>>53858224

>>53848021
>paying 6 mana to draw a card
Red mages, everyone.

>>53852041
>Mercurial Geists
>Stormchaser mage
>le 1/3 Prowess
>le blaze
This... is the power... of red.

>>53858469
>paying 3 mana to deal 3 damage
Modern Red everyone

>>53855141
>goatballs
kek

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>>53845342
>>53845351
what is time passing?

>>53849442
Red needs better cards. There's an argument for having a red centric set.
It's the color with the least abilities and least play styles,

I think the playable dragons they printed and that angel with haste is a good start but the drawbacks are too great.

They can never print a "all good" red card without nerfing it with a terrible drawback while they print all good blue and white and green cards, even black gets stuff that doesn't hurt you as bad as red.

Red can't go all smash, destroy, damage crazy without paying a huge prize.

Blue can go all intellectual, read draw and stall, for no real loss of tempo.

>>53859494
>that angel with haste
You mean Goldnight Castigator? Really interesting design that could have been a great card but they were too safe with it. Being a 4 power hasty flyer for 4 isn't enough upside to balance the downside of doubling all the damage you take. It should have had 5 or even 6 power.

Prove that red is a shit color for shit people according to wot

>>53859581
I agree they could have even been more aggressive with the cost. If the problem was the stats. At mythic 5/x flying for 4 is not too pushed. But Gods forbid red gets a "chase" card that's worth anything.

>>53855106
Flame Smash, Flame Gash, Lame Sash.

Red is pretty fine in Standard.
It's playable as MonoColor deck, has many useful kill spells, it's present in most Tier decks: RG Energy, Mardu, UR Tempo. ,
With Dynavolt Tower you don't even need to turn creatures sideways to win.
Everyother format has Bolt and it centralizes the shit out of everything.
We want Standard so we can play something different.

>>53858519
I really don't get why Stormchaser mage isn't played more. I mean, sure, it has 1 power for a card that needs to be as aggressive as possible but its got an incredible combination of abilities.

>Flying
>Prowess
>Fucking HASTE

With a bulky body and just 2 cmc I just can't see what's wrong with the card, specially in formats with 0 cost or cheatable spells that can have it attack hard right away.

>>53862167
Agreed.

>>53862167
Stormchaser mage is a great card but he needs the right types of support spells to really make him shine.

Thermo thing was a good standard deck not too long ago and included him.

>>53845351
Why use this card when Lightening Bolt is literally the same thing with lesser cost?

>>53864790
If you play LB is standard you get a DQ for cheating

>>53864790
Pokemon and yugioh players demand that magic standard play like their horrible games or they won't play it. Like an abuse victim wizards changes for them, killing its established base to try to appeal to adhd kids who will quit in a year.

>>53869236
Pokemon and yugioh are way WAY faster and more powerful than mtg standard format

>>53869236
yeah, show me all the first turn kills on standard.

>>53859875
Hash slinging slasher!

>>53869380
They got that way because of a lack of control and removal options.

I atill have my completely unplayable 1E Yugioh deck with rageki, mirror force, dark hole, trap holes and fissures that effectively stopped the other personal from playing creatures and only had change of heart and monstet reborn for killing.

>>53858637
Modern still has lightning bolt, what are you smoking?

>>53870350
>rageki
>mirror force
>other mass removal
If you pass your turn without winning or locking your opponent out, you suck. YuGiOh is literally combo the format.

>>53870414
A pretty typical start back in the day went: card destruction, graceful charity, pot of greed, trap hole.
Black hole, trap hole, monster reborn on blue eyes

>>53870591
And back in the day Shivan Dragon was a decent creature. Get with the times granddad.

>removal gets worse
>fucking Hexproof lol

>>53870612
>You oldsters just don't understand!
>Us cool kidz don't need balance or interactivity anymore, we just turn our creatures sideways while making explosion sounds with out mouths.
>Standard only needs one playable deck anyway.

>>53870994
>I like spells
>Spells are way more interactive than creatures

>>53871078
>Thinks creatures are interactive.
>Most pushed creature abilities ever.
>BTFO by a 4 mana artifact that dumps a giant indestructible creature into play.

>>53862167
There's no 2 cmc doublestrike card anymore like Temur Battlerage in the right colors.

>>53849002
Which is a damn shame. It's one of the things that distinguishes (or at least did) Magic from its contemporaries.

>>53873173
Prowess + combat tricks is a deck I'd like to play honestly.

>>53873429
>>53849002
>First they came for land destruction, and I did nothing because I liked my greedy manabase
>then they came for counterspells, and I did nothing because draw go is boring.
>then they came for removal, and I did nothing because I liked my flashy mythic creatures
>Finally they came for direct damage, and there was no one else left to say anything
>Only creatures the tappening remained.

>>53874204
Personally, I think there's nothing wrong with land destruction either. It's red's only real way to play control.

>>53876422

You mean besides Blood Moon?

>>53876422
Bolt is a cornerstone to control alongside bloodmoon and ld. Cant get hit if every threat gets blasted or cant be cast.

>>53876819
you can see Blood Moon as pseudo land destruction honestly

>>53876422
I feel they are correct in keeping outright land destruction lowpowered.
I do not, however, think the same should be true of nonbasic land destruction, and that nonbasic land destruction should be given full power treatment...basically any time except when they've trying to do a 3 color block like Alara or Khans. A check on greedy manabases would do well for the game while giving an easy way around it for the 'let people actually play the game' problem of normal LD being good.

>>53877488
If land destruction was nonbasic or targeted at a specific type(fuck all islands and plains over all day everyday), then I'd be cool with seeing it get printed.

>>53877488
Dude standard needs a stone rain with 1rr cost. Fucking mana fixing is amazing right now and that basically translates to "play green"

>>53878395
>>53878426
>Buhuuu people are playing multiple colors on a deck!!
>life is unfair!!
The only case in which LD is realy needed is in formats with Cloudpost, tron lands or Tolarian academy/serra's sanctum or library of alexandria (that is not as broken as people says). go with your monocolor boner to your EDH shit and don't come back.
(I fully support Wasteland in modern)