/osrg/ OSR General

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>>53798144
>Dagger, Staff, or Dart?
Staff. With a knob on the end.

>>53798144
Dagger.
It has Chainmail stats.

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r8 my starting spells and new magic system

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>>53798144
>Dagger, Staff, or Dart?
I actually like the idea of letting wizard-types use any light weapon, including short swords, hand axes and so forth--even (light) crossbows if they're suckier than bows in the system you're using.

Cleric-types use specialized weapons mandated by their faith--either a dagger and two other weapons that seem appropriate for their god's sphere of influence (no swords if you're using a system that makes magical swords more common than other weapons, as is typical), or the standard "blunt weapons" restriction.

Thief-types use standard d8 weapons like full-size swords (longsword / normal sword / arming sword / whatever your system calls it) but not "great" weapons.

Fighter-types can use any fucking thing, yo.

We have a wizard who uses bows.

Our game system of choice, AD&D 2e , already restricts weapons known on first level pretty heavily, so further class limitations always just seemed reluctant on top of that. If the wizard is only proficient with one weapon and takes -5 to hit with anything else, might as well have that one weapon be whatever the fuck they want.

>>53798144
Dart Fighter in 2e.
Staff for everything else.

>>53798144
Staff because I can poke shit with it from far away.

>>53798872
>Dart Fighter in 2e.
Darts are nowhere near as great as you think they are.

Because of the way initiative works, you only get to throw one dart before melee is joined, and you have to either tackle some asshole trying to stab you or at the very least throw darts into close combat with your friends. The range of the darts is so wretched that you won't ever be able to fire even two of your darts, let alone the memetic six, before this point.

>>53798144
So, I'm writing an OSR compatible (hopefully) semi-lite homebrew inspired by Advanced Fighting Fantasy.
Compatible in that I want to compact a lot of existing mechanics into fewer things, but have them "unpackable" for converting content back and forth.
Semi-lite in that I want simplified mechanics, but very easy to bolt osr-sourced stuff onto if needed.
AFF in that I want rules that players can easily commit to memory and play with a minimum of prep, play space, props, stationery, etc. If you've got a pocket notepad, a pencil and a few dice, you should be good to go.

Couple of questions.
How far away can you get from oldschool D&D before it stops being that? Like the 6 ability scores, saving throws, full set of polyhedral dice in use, etc.
Is a system where the sum of all your modifiers boil down to if you have (dis)advantage or not a good idea? Or is it actually more complicated than rolling a die and adding/subtracting a modifier?

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>>53797680
>I know planes and hell were in Unearthed Arcana (IIRC),
>but far from being prepared for campaigning outright.
Manual of the Planes. 7 years older than Planescape.

>>53798144
>owning weapons

>>53798974
>Or is it actually more complicated than rolling a die and adding/subtracting a modifier?
It's a lot less complicated.

>How far away can you get from oldschool D&D before it stops being that?
If you make serious alterations to the combat, you get away pretty quick.
Beyond that, you can change just about anything as long as you don't change everything,.
>Like the 6 ability scores, saving throws, full set of polyhedral dice in use, etc.
If your only reason to remove the polyhedra is aesthetic, you should rethink your life.

"Rulings not Rules."

Are you consistent about this in game? If you ruled something one way do you note it as a house rule for next time? Or do you arbitrarily do something different next time?

If not how do you provide any mechanical consistency to the game? Which without players can't make any informed choices.

But if so don't you end up with an expansive rules set that almost goes against the rules lite spirit of osr?

I love the OSR style but I can't work out a satisfactory answer to this.

>>53798940
>not wanting to throw darts into close combat with your friends
It's like you don't even want to be That Guy.

>>53799238
It really depends on what it is that I'm ruling on, but I tend to view each situation as unique. The commonality in all situations is that I'm striving for a simple, sensible, well-balanced way to resolve things. If I hit on a way of doing things I like, I'm going to tend to stick with it and apply it to similar situations. If I'm not satisfied with a solution, then I'll probably do things differently next time (though I may just tweak my approach a little, especially if I felt like the previous approach was just a little bit off). Unless I completely miscalculated the first time though, the overall effectiveness of doing something is unlikely to drastically change, so even if my players can't count on things being done exactly the same way, they can have a decent idea how effective it is to do something.

>>53798279
I've only read a little since I badly need to pass out right now, but it looks interesting.

>(1) Conveyance of Supply & Spoils
>When cast, this spell creates a magical force that helps carry things. The force can carry equal in load to 4 +
I'm not sure what a load of 5 (for example) means.

Also, you say spell power increases by level, but don't say it directly equals your level, which I assume is the case.

>>53799238
Ultimately the answer to your question is:
>Which without players can't make any informed choices.
This is a false assumption.

What players need to make informed choices is a consistent *world*, that makes sense according to their experiences and expectations. One of the reasons to eschew consistent rules is actually that they tend to interfere with that; for instance, in 3E the rules on being conscious but bleeding out mean that it's less dangerous to jump down a short drop than to throw a dart. The latter case forces you to save or begin losing HP again, but the former does not because it's movement. That's absurd, of course; in reality the shock of landing on your feet is much more likely to reopen your wounds than throwing something that weights an ounce or two. Your reaction is probably "okay, but that's easily disregarded, just do the thing that makes sense", and, EXACTLY. That's a ruling.

In other words, just rule so things make sense when the situation comes up, why bother with a fixed rule that you have to remember or look up?The same exact situation rarely comes up twice, and even if it does, either you remember how you ruled last time, or you don't so then it doesn't matter because you don't remember that anyhow, it might as well never have occurred. Any minor gain that comes of having a fixed rule is massively outweighed by the hassle of referencing heaps of them. Besides, what's to say you ruled it right the first time and wrong this time? Having rulings lets you adjust your refereeing on the fly so that ideally you're always improving.

>>53798279
Do you lose your prepared spell when you cast it?

>>53799063
Mind you, with the wonky way psionics work in Eldritch Wizardry, that far from necessarily means you'll have +5 sword fists on character level 10. It's the tenth level *after you gained the power*, which could be fucking 24 or something.

>>53801704
Despite the best power on the Fighting-Man list, it's a Basic power not a Superior.
If you get it at all, you'll get it well before level 14.

You also neglected the AC bonus.
At 10th level of mastery that's AC of -1.
AC of -2 with a shield. That's before magic items.

If you run the M2M table, "weapon type is always to most favorable" makes your to-hit chance really stupid really quick.

>>53799238
>If not how do you provide any mechanical consistency to the game? Which without players can't make any informed choices.

Adding to what others have said, just follow how the real world works and use common sense. In any edition (hell, any RPG) if you turn a door knob and push a door, it opens. That's not something that needs a rule or a die roll.

Let players just do something if their characters could, like kill a sleeping enemy or jump a small pit (roll under Strength if there's any doubt).

Game mechanics are for abstract things like "I attack" or "I search the room" or "how do the monsters react". They have built-in risk/reward systems and consequences (it takes a round, it takes a turn, the monsters might be hostile). Don't make everything a die roll, but fall back on x in 6, d%, or roll under ability score if there's some doubt that an action will work.

>>53802808
>Game mechanics are for abstract things
Abstractions are justified by game mechanics, not the other way around.
Game mechanics are for things the referee will not or can not trust themself to fairly arbitrate.

>>53802882
That's what I meant, my bad.

You could have:
>"I pull the first book."
>"Nothing happens."
>"I pull the second book."
>"Nothing happens."
>...
>"I pull the thirteenth book."
>"A secret door opens!"

Or you could have:
>"I search the room."
>a die is rolled
>"After looking around and playing with some of the books, pulling on the thirteenth one opens a secret door!"

Hell, I'm certain there are groups of medieval combat nerds out there who run combat blow-by-blow without dice rolls because they're just that into it.

>>53802995
Maybe also:
>"I pull books until something happens."
>"You spend a couple minutes..." *Random encounter roll, nothing shows up* "...pulling books until a secret door opens!"

>>53803158
Exactly. I don't understand why the passage of time and wandering monster rules were basically removed from later editions. They form part of a really tight game loop that keeps the game fun and makes every time-consuming action meaningful (instead of just trying again or taking 10 or taking 20 or automatically passing, whoop-de-doo).

Also in the short term I'd say there are other things players can just do without it taking up a turn. Anyone with a reasonable strength score and a running start can clear a 5' pit. You can ask the goblin king to surrender if he's cowardly and has no chance of winning. Solving a riddle leads to the intended resolution.

I need some help with anydice. Would anyone here know how to get something like "percent change that a 5 or a 6 will be rolled three times on 5d6"? Alternatively, does anyone know a place that explains how to do it through math?

>>53802907
>Game mechanics are for things the referee will not or can not trust themself to fairly arbitrate.
this. Also for things that have no analogue in the real world and so need defining (such as magic)

Is there anywhere I can get a Chainmail pdf? Can't find it in the trove. Just wanted to take a look at the jousting rules

>>53804071
Chainmail is in the OD&D folder.

>>53804108
Oh, thank you

>>53803554
Anydice stores the rolls as a sequence, for least to greatest.
This looks at the 3rd lowest roll of 5d6, and checks if it's greater than 4: http://anydice.com/program/c03d

>Alternatively, does anyone know a place that explains how to do it through math?
https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/684899/calculate-the-probability-of-an-event-occurring-at-least-x-times-over-n-trials
The question asks for a simpler way to do something, but the "way to do it" in the question doesn't work.
Just skip the question and read the answers, they get it right.

>>53804071
08_TSR → 01 Original D&D - Whitebox → Rules → Chain Mail

How terribly imbalanced do you think OD&D would become if you allowed wizards to cast extra spells from HP based on the spell level? So like a level 1 spell would be d1 hp loss, level 6 would be d6 spell loss.

Keep in mind wizards have a d4 HD, and stop gaining HD by the time they start getting lvl 6 spells

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>>53804193
Thanks anon, this was really helpful!

>>53804318
First, what do you mean by balance?

>>53804318
make it 1d6 per spell level. Call it blood magic.

>Metal Chime
>Range: 30'
>Description: You touch...
Hmmmm

>>53805703
>1d6 hp
>oD&D
That's retarded and so are you

>>53803328
>I don't understand why the passage of time and wandering monster rules were basically removed from later editions.
Same reason they weren't included in most (any?) other RPGs, probably. People read the rules, thought they seemed pointless and fiddly, didn't use them, and then concluded that they were useless. It's a common type of fallacy.

>>53806074
It's extra spells. It should be a risk.
Also, magic users don't have d4 HD in OD&D, so I assumed you had some homebrew frankenstein thing going on anyway.

What do you think of BFRPG?

I really like it. Much more clear and streamlined version of B/X or LL. But one thing irks me. XP for monster killing. This feels wrong in a system with fragile PCs, doesn't it?

>>53807249
It is pretty strange, but I just use the GP for XP optional rule. Still my favorite retroclone by far.

>>53806885
Not him, but I want to chime in.
How about d6+spell level. Should keep higher level spells an option.

>>53807249
I really don't like the ability check rules. They had a perfectly workable system with the door-kicking rules (roll under 1+modifier, 1d6-1d20 for difficulty).

>>53807249
>What do you think of BFRPG?
I don't like it, it adds nothing other than race & class (eeeww)

>>53799799

Yes, I'll have to specify that in the rules.

>>53807249
It's okay. I've used it a bit because I wanted race and class but I found the way they did it a bit lackluster. I like that it sticks to only giving the cleric a spell at second level.

>>53807249
It's what I'm using for my current OSR megadungeon/hexcrawl game, with the GP=XP rule. It's been pretty great because it's D&D so it's superbly easy to learn if you've ever dungeoned a dragon in your entire life, but it's also bog simple. My only complaint is that people rely on the online roll20charsheets too much, which overcomplicated what should be a really dead-simple character sheet

I stapled some 'you don't die when reduced to 0HP' rules onto it, the tl;dr is that hits that would take you to 0 HP or below maim you, you have a 25%ish chance of killing you +5% per previous time you've had to roll on the chart, and a fair few 'you're knocked out' options so you really don't want to rely on the chart to save you. Still have had plenty of character death but nowhere near the meatgrinder it would have been, plus it helps a lot with letting player punch above their weight class without feeling like they're one hit from instadeath every turn.

>>53807249
>What do you think of BFRPG?
Never saw a reason for it, since I have AD&D books, an RC and some LBB reprints.

>But one thing irks me. XP for monster killing. This feels wrong in a system with fragile PCs, doesn't it?
Yeah, fuck that noise. Stick to the good rule, XP for gold. That's probably the most trialled and tested mechanic in all of RPGs, it's not gonna break anything unexpectedly.

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>>53795716

Well huh. Hadn't even considered that, but yeah, it makes sense. Although not so much "thieves" as "court wizards, spies, vizers, and handy people to have around". Thieves guilds always struck me as a bit too... camp.

>>53796224
Hadn't considered that either.

Hey guys, question for you all.

What are some benefits of XP for Gold? And how exactly does that mechanic work?

>>53807249
I think the XP for monster killing is an attempt to branch out the system from OSR dungeon crawls, and killing monsters (which is something you'll basically always do in just about any style of fantasy campaign) allows for more adventure options than XP for Gold (since that by its nature requires that you include a monetary reward in the adventure, which doesn't always make sense).

But as you pointed out with the high lethality nature of it, it's still difficult to branch this game out since your typical high heroics fantasy adventure wont work as well in this system, which is a shame, because I've always found the idea of OSR games appealing as rules light fantasy RPGs, but the execution always leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

>>53807249
OD&D gave XP for combat.

>>53808237
>What are some benefits of XP for Gold?
It strongly encourages players to obtain treasure.
Which is well placed encouragement, if obtaining treasure is the point of the game.
>And how exactly does that mechanic work?
For every 1gp you pocket by the end of the adventure, you get 1xp.
It's the reason the xp numbers are really big.
Everyone how aped those large numbers without aping gp:xp just looks silly.

>>53808237
The benefits are that players will start coming up with alternative ways of seeing their aims met than just fighting the monster. The downfall of course being that PCs will become completely wealth obsessed.

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>>53808237
You can set the exchange rate how you'd like. You can also set the conditions for gold becoming XP. Some people require it to be spent, most people require it to be looted (so no rewards or wages).

Benefits are that it discourages fighting, it's a classic mechanic, and it makes it easy to track wealth and encourage stealing. Downsides are that the players will try to loot everything, including each other, and it can be tricky to track spending and outside earnings.

Overall, I'd say it's not mandatory, but it's close.

>>53805934
I bet there's a better way to point out my mistakes than by posting without replying, cryptically, with no references. There has to be a better way...

>>53808237
It reinforces the point of the game.

>>53808207
Spies and handy people to have around, sure.
But they're no more viziers or court wizards than any other learned men.


Let us take a look at the tool box:

perk. don't get caught
drawback. stay near markets

c1. coerce people
c2. don't get lost
c3. overcome dementia/manipulation

1. haul treasure, also steal all coins outside palms or purses
2. locate treasure, locate guards, and get a rough room-plan
3. just hits stuff
4. preserve food, hide a body, or increases poison/booze dosage
5. covers escape or lubes hinges
6. covers escape or guards doors
7. torch, or screws someone over, or screws everyone over
8. causes a distraction, rigs a trap, or sends a signal
9. causes a distraction, screws someone over, or rigs bets
10. covers an escape or entrance, weakens MUs

11. sends people flying (covers an escape, kills near cliffs, kills on roofs)
12. weakens MUs


I get that your goal was a good "sneaky dungeon crawler" wizard,
but it turns out what's good for tomb robbing is good for regular robbing.


>There has to be a better way...
Speaking of your mistakes, you say "10. Fog" twice.

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>>53808655
>also steal all coins outside palms or purses
"Unattended" coins, anon. If it's in a purse, you're attending to it. Plus they can't get out.

But yeah, overall, you could definitely run an entire party of these guys, thieves, and assassins in an urban game. Neat!

What are the newest OSR games, and does Shadow of the Demon Lord count?

>>53801704
>+5 sword fists
OD&D Sword +4s were 1-in-100.
+3 was usually enemy-specific.
Sword +5s were Paladin exclusive.

>>53808724
>outside

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>>53808207
>Thieves guilds always struck me as a bit too... camp.

The phrase "thieves guild", is, I think, from Lankmar. In medieval times there were bandits and pirates, but one doesn't hear about organized crime in the cities much. Cities were smaller (Paris only 250,000 in 1300 CE) and people perhaps nosier, so managing a den of thieves inside a city seems dangerous.

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>>53808771
>outside

Anon, I've had a shitty day. If you want to be cryptic, by all means, go ahead, but don't expect much to come of it.

>>53808813
Yeah, I can see it in a Discworld game or something, but in a pseudo-medieval setting you hang petty thieves and go to dinner with renters. The best you'd likely get is a confederacy of beggars, which wouldn't appeal to a Drowned Wizard.

>>53808886
Apparently everything upthread is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma.
>>also steal all coins outside palms or purses

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>>53808936
Inside a sandwich, on top of spaghetti, served after 2pm on weekdays.

But yes, right. Fair point. Easier if you blow up a strongbox or a bank though.

>>53808813
The thieves guild concept goes back to Cervantes. It's fictional, but a thief is only as good as his fence. Not to mention mountebanks were highly organized.

>>53808761
>and does Shadow of the Demon Lord count?
No, OSR is games compatible with D&D made by TSR, some games are:

>Lamentation of the Flame Princess
>Adventurer Conqueror King system
>Labyrinth Lord
>Dark Dungeons
>Astonishing Swordsmen & Sorcerers of Hyperborea

Currently working a document that makes Intelligence slightly more useful. Instead of just languages, high Int gives you "lores," which are specialties that your character knows something about. They're randomly generated. Currently I have two categories:

>cultures and tongues

Languages and the peoples who speak them.

>environs

Terrains like "forest" and "desert" that cover basic knowledge of the terrain, flora/fauna, etc.

This is mostly flavor stuff, there's no real rules to it beyond being prompts for the players and GMs to work with. Any other suggestions to add?

>My only complaint is that people rely on the online roll20charsheets too much, which overcomplicated what should be a really dead-simple character sheet

Ha, you're right. Just joined a roll20 group and the sheet is much more fine grained than any pdf I saw on their site.

>>53808761
Why does new even matter? And SotDL is great to steal from but wouldn't really call it OSR.

>>53809199

Sounds pretty good to me. I dislike too much complexity in my games but that's a good mechanic to make intelligence more useful to non-Wizards; now our dreams of roleplaying an intelligent, tactical fighter with knowledge of the beasts in the woods and the languages of the elves is perfectly realized.

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>>53809069
>The thieves guild concept goes back to Cervantes.
This is good information anon.

>>53809199
>Mysticism
Knowledge of quasi-magical exercises and practices concerning the relationship between the singular soul and the greater universe, as well as the philosophies surrounding these practices

>Economics
Knowledge of what is valued in specific regions and how distinct economies interact with each other

>Military
Understanding of military history and knowledge of martial arts at varying levels of granularity.

Could something like Tome of Battle maneuvers be made OSR?

>>53810959
No imo

>>53810959
if that's the sort of thing you want happening in your combat, old-school play might not be for you and that's fine

>>53807249
its fine. its for weaning people off more modern D&D and into OSR.

Its free and the printed material is dirt cheap if you want a physical copy

How can you guys like traps? Traps are neither clever, nor are they interesting. Also are basically a lazy GMs way of saying "I am too lazy to come up with a real challenge so here you go faggots." Traps are a worthless vestige of Gygaxian dungeons. Gygax was shit at running games outside of his contrived dungeon crawl bullshit so he has to add things to make the game last as long as possible. Thus traps were added, despite being impractical and barely any use on their own, expensive as fuck, might as well build a fucking golden instead of spending that much cash. Like alignment and Armor Class, they remain in the game for nostalgia purposes only. Any DM who unironically uses traps to any degree of commonality is a piece of shit who needs to be gassed.

>refuted
*fed

>>53811557
>Post boring and uninspired dungeon
>Think he refuted someone

>>53811486
i also prefer dungeons without anything to interact with apart from a string of combat encounters

>>53811760
>Joke
>Your head

>>53811486
>There are people who unironically believe this

>>53811486
>How can you guys like traps?
Because they are sexy?

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>>53811986
>There are people who unironically take bait

>>53812013

>>53812013
How?

>>53812061
Are you new here?

I thought this pasta would get me more replies than a genuine question, so... why do you like traps? They don't seem interesting most of the time

>>53812115
yes

>>53812122
Rookie mistake, telling us you're new.
Never admit that.

>>53812122
Traps are just as if not more deadly than enemies and can often times be more unique. Take, for example, a room with a floor that looks like solid silver. A wary group would toss something at the floor to check it out, the item disappearing with just the smallest of ripples. Thinking it an illusion, the idiot player sticks their face in it thinking that the floor, being fake, leads somewhere. Now he just shoved his face into mercury.

>>53812042
>Implying I didn't know it was bait
I was just saying that there are people who really believe this. Doubt that? Go to other generals ask their opinions about traps to see

>>53812122
A good trap situation can be a creative experience, as players try to ferret it out and then come up with a way to disarm it. With that said, I hardly use traps because they usually don't make much sense to me, and because I don't want the adventure to slow to a crawl as the PCs poke and prod every inch of every corridor and room they travel through.

>>53812061
>>>/cm/
>>>/y/
>>>/a/

>>53812212
/osrg/ is a pure and comfy thread, don't post this degeneracy here

>>53812196
>I hardly use traps
What kind of challenge do you give to your players other than combat? Puzzles?

>>53812042
There are people who ironically take bait?

>>53812278
Thread is dead anyway, why not reply?

anyone got Swords of Kos? How is it?

How do you all handle religions in relation to your clerics and such? Monotheistic 'Catholic'-like faith? Polytheistic 'each temple is a church unto itself with little to no major hierarchy'-like?

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>>53812122
>I thought this pasta would get me more replies than a genuine question,

Never do this again. This is a lazy way to think and a lazy way to post. You aren't being the poster Mr. Rogers would want you to be. If you're new here it's all the more reason to make a effort.

>>53812349
Monotheistic Generic Fantasy Catholic, but no clerics. Just Paladins who speak for God (and with His voice), angels, and other weird shit. And a wordly but not evil church.

>>53812349
Some settings its generally easier to do the big tent with the Catholic like version. Kinda like how the Aztec gods got subbed out for saints. gives you a backdrop for factional politics within the 'Church'

but the other version of each God has its own distinct religion is useful for inter faith conflict etc.

sometimes its easier to give the 'Big Gods' bigger religions, and the smaller gods more cult like followings or folk religion type organizations, or even just myths.

>>53812349
Build the society, then the religion.
Outline some shitty parables that promote the society's ideals.
Then slap the Gods on top.

>>53812389
Mr. Rogers wouldn't approve of this site.
It's not a place where good things happen to good people.

>>53812389
Go forth and shill, only to rise on the third day and shill once more!

>inb4 unapologetically taking pride in self-shilling
>inb4 >muh tens (!) of views!!

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>>53812443
>Mr. Rogers wouldn't approve of this site.

Probably correct, but there's a lot in the world that that would make him sad. There's no reason to add more.

>Go forth and shill, only to rise on the third day and shill once more!
He did ask...

Who's Rogers?

>>53812468
Anon, I...

>>53812468
Someone, quick! Post the "Who's Kirk" screencap!

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Rogers

>>53812265
>What kind of challenge do you give to your players other than combat? Puzzles?
You don't honestly need anything too formal. Figuring out how to circumvent or overcome enemies can be puzzles too. The whole "figure out this riddle" / "solve this logic puzzle" or you die / can't continue can be problematic, and can feel at least as forced as traps that don't really make sense being in a dungeon, and can absolutely shut down a group that doesn't catch on to the solution. That's not to say that you can never have them, but you have to be careful and it's probably best if you don't overdo them. In my opinion, anyway.

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>>53812455
You did it by under a minute.

Plus he did ask! What do you want me to do, not answer? Would that be best? WHAT DO YOU PEOPLE WANT FROM ME?!?

Also, here, there was a semi-decent thread about gods a while back>>53790340

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>>53812489
I had to google that.
Make less obscure references.

>>53812265
I wouldn't use all of these, but there's a good amount of neat ideas to take and mess with.

http://goblinpunch.blogspot.ca/2016/03/1d135-osr-style-challenges.html

Basically I make getting from point A to B more complicated, but leave enough detail and texture for them to use and come up with neat ideas.

>>53812494
Thanks, not everyone on this board is an american

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>>53812510
>Make less obscure references.

No.

>>53799238
> If you ruled something one way do you note it as a house rule for next time?
Usually only if it's very likely to come up pretty often.

> If not how do you provide any mechanical consistency to the game?
Consistency is nice, but really the bedrock of player agency IMO is predictability. Consistency is just predictability drawn out over the long term. Short term predictability is OK, too.

For example, say you had no rules in your game for jumping over pits. One time you decide to do 1+x in 6 chance of success (x = str mod) and if you fail you get a saving throw to not fall in the pit but you reckon it's too far to jump so you can't try again.

The important parts there are: resolution method and chance of success/failure (1+x in 6); what happens on success (jump pit fine); what happens on failure (save or fall in pit).

The next time you can decide jumping a pit is d20 roll under strength if you like, as long as you tell the players "hey, if you want to try to jump the pit that's d20 under strength and if you succeed you make it and if you fail you fall in the pit" (this time it's easier to succeed so you decide consequences are harsher for failure, why not).

The only thing you lose with short-term predictability is that the players need to ask you every time they want to try something (which, to be fair, they often do anyway) instead of just assuming how it works and saying "I try to jump the pit, 8 on d20."

>>53807249
I found it to be sort of the opposite. It felt to me like it was b/x but some of the good parts were replaced by unnecessarily complicated stuff from 3rd edition.

>>53808237
One thing nobody's mentioned yet is that xp for gold creates a new mini-game: how do we get this treasure out of the dungeon? When you have half the money in stuff like furniture and rare metal ingots then extracting the treasure safely and effectively becomes its own challenge.

Reminder that CHAINMAIL only cribbed Tolkien for marketing's sake.

>>53812349
Almost always monotheistic and catholic-like. I like the idea of having a big church with a hierarchy. Clerics I can go either way with, though.

>>53809101
There are several genuine OSR titles that disagree. Epees and Sorcerlerie off the top of my head, due to it swapping out the d20 attack roll for 2d6, but is otherwise largely based on 0D&D.

>>53812349
Monotheistic, but not tied to a church hierarchy. I'm fond of imagining clerics as the favoured of an old god of rulership, who imparts his own preferences for blunt weaponry (himself dating back to a time when copper maces were a big deal, and when slings were ubiquitous hunting instruments) and smashing things.

Alternatively, something like Plotinus' the One, with blunt weaponry best representing the divine simplicity of this divine wellspring. But in either case, I prefer to avoid mandating membership in any form of church or formal religion.

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>>53814160
Chainmail uses 2d6.

>>53814160
>0
*O

>>53814192
That 2d6 still renders it largely incompatible with TSR D&D products.

It also excludes the Black Hack.

There is no clear definition of OSR, because it's not an actual piece of legitimate terminology, just a loose knit fandom of people that like various aspects of oldschool D&D style games (and even then, often quite different aspects of them) and thus seek to ape them in game design.

>>53798974
You might want to take a look at Troika, which is very much based on the Fighting Fantasy gamebooks (and a healthy dose of Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun as well).

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>>53799238
I really wish this phrase would disappear. Like all slogans, it communicates very little and completely misses what OSR games are about.

Rules absolutely matter in many OSR contexts - they just aren't the rules that matter in other RPGs. Rules like the lifespan of a torch, the pace at which a party can advance under heavy load - all of these are very important to OSR rulesets in a way that they aren't in other RPGs.

If the GM is always arbitrary about these rules, the transparency of the game goes way down and player ability to make reasoned decisions disappear, since they no longer can make good judgement calls about how fast they can move or how long their torch will last. Then you're no longer really playing a dungeon crawl "game" at all; just a game of the GM's whims.

A better statement would be "The GM as a referee." That is, the GM doesn't make arbitrary rulings in place of or as a replacement for rules; he makes rulings to try and logically extend places that the rules don't cover, while trying to remain respectful to their intent. If a PC uses their torch to burn off a slime - does it burn the slime, or does it get doused, or somewhere in-between? That's where the GM steps in with a ruling - extrapolating from the *existing* rule.

>>53809069
>The thieves guild concept goes back to Cervantes.
There's a sort of beggars' guild in Hugo and Dumas as well, and probably earlier novels.

>>53812349
Each alignment is one religion. Lawful is not!Catholics, Chaotics are basically Lovecraft Satanist Witches. Neutrals are Protestants.

The d10 should not be used for anything other than percentage rolls. 20-sided d10s are superior.

>>53812501
>What do you want me to do
I'm not the boss of you, but my advice would be "disregard trolls and bait".

Those guys are fags, man.

>>53815303
>20-sided d10s are superior.
Ten-sided dice are perfectly respectable, and 20-sided d10s are easily confused with d20s.

>>53815352
>20-sided d10s are easily confused with d20s
Not if they're a cool color.

>>53815370
But then you're having to control what dice everybody uses, and having to watch them to make sure they aren't rolling d10s when they should be rolling d20s. I don't have a problem with the GM providing table dice everybody must use, but plenty of people spazz out to the idea, and it clearly isn't always an option.

Also, the d20s I've tested, have been pretty biased. I don't have anything to compare them to, so it could be that all dice are pretty biased (or that I got unlucky with the d20s I tested), but it could indicate that d20s are more susceptible to bias for whatever reason. They certainly roll more than d10s do, for instance.

>>53815396
My players are too lazy to get their own dice, so they just borrow mine. And only thief characters would use the 20-sided d10s since they're the only one who roll d100.

>>53815423
>And only thief characters would use the 20-sided d10s since they're the only one who roll d100.
Percentile die should *definitely* be 10-siders. I'd allow 20-siders for regular d10s way before I did for percentile dice.

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>>53815438
It's fine if they're marked like this.

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How do you feel about size categories in OSR?

I've thought about the manner quite a bit actually, even in very old homebrews I made. I've been thinking about dusting them off for use in a more bronze/copper/ancient/classical age fantasy, which works well if everyone is some inexplicable little person, or medium regular person, or all the kings and queens are giants for whatever reason that seems to crop up a lot in old mythologies. I'd want being large to be 'balanced' with being small in a few ways, and as time went on I ended up thinking up the following ruleset.

>Size category
>Add your size category to your carry weight, to your maximum HP, to your rations eaten daily, and to your Fray bonus
>Subtract your size category from your initiative, sneak rolls, and AC
>Fray Bonus- When you charge into combat with a warcry (announcing that you are coming) you get a bonus to your to-hit and AC equal to your size category until you are struck

The idea here is that a large character, would be incentivized to charge into combat, where as smaller ones prefer to be sneaky. Wearing heavy armor increases your fray bonus, but makes it harder for you to escape.

Something like a wolly mammoth would charge into combat with like +8 and wreck everything, but once somebody finally hits it, it would be stuck in the middle of a group of enemies with very low AC getting hit often by people trying to hurt it, which really works well for size bonuses in my opinion, acts as an easy double edged sword. Also you could easily add in some nice weapon rules here; spears let you ignore the AC bonus from enemies fray; so it's even easier to stop them in their tracks with a good spear.

Thoughts on these? These rules would fit very well in the type of Egyptian, Sumerian, and Biblical style of fantasy campaign I am imagining them in.

>>53814611
That's almost exactly what I argued here before. I don't like the slogan neither.

Clear, concise and consistent rules are very important for every game in my opinion. The point of RPG rules should be to not burden player agency and creativity but still have a strict core rule base.

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>>53815478
But now you have to have two different colors that go in a certain order and which are both easily distinguishable from regular d20s. The 10s digit d10s were, I think, a nice advancement, and I'd much rather use something like in the pic than the scheme you're talking about. Plus d20s have a bit more roll than is ideal for using them in pairs.

>>53815481
>How do you feel about size categories in OSR?
I'm totally okay with them; like you said, they make sense.

Personally I use Chainmail combat, and that kind of has size baked in -- if you're not a literal Hero, you can't really take on big monsters solo. (Once you are, the size is pretty much factored into the Fantasy Combat Chart. Giants aren't hard to hit because they're literally hard to hit, but because their size makes them hard to wound. This is pretty clear from the other monsters' to-hit numbers against them.) You have to have a bunch of soldiers gang up on them and bring them down that way.

>>53810695
What did they call motor boating before there were motors?

>>53815602
But they're not platonic solids, and that's heresy.

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How do you differentiate weapon types?

Like if three fighters different fighters are equipped with a sword, axe, and mace, what differences or abilities do each get?

>>53815978
>But they're not platonic solids
Which would be significant if it in some way affected their ability to randomly generate numbers.

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>>53816073

>>53816107
>>But they're not platonic solids
>Which would be significant
Anon wants a complete set. If you introduce a pentagonal trapezohedron, why not a hexagonal trapezohedron, or heptagonal trapezohedron, etc. Where does this stop anon?

>>53816107
But only platonic solids generates numbers *ethereally*

Anybody got an OSR alchemist class?

>>53817638
Best of Dragon Volume 3

>>53817984
Hmm this is alchemist-as-spell caster. Are there any classes where the alchemist doesn’t cast spells?

>>53818430
Not by TSR, that would be against their paradigm for magic.

>>53818430
Maybe take a look at the Wizard class in Dragons at Dawn?

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I'm planning on running a game using pic related for a group of newbies, myself included. Could I get some module recommendations, please?

>>53818671
Blood on the Snow and Curse of Cragbridge come to mind.

>>53818671
X1 - The Isle of Dread (Bx)
Tower of the Stargazer (LotfP)
Tomb of the Serpent King (GLOG)
The Caverns of Thracia (OD&D)

>>53810708
Good suggestions, thank you. Keep 'em coming if you have any more.

>>53817638
The Compleat Alchemist

Why were titles so set in old-school D&D? Why didn't it change depending on what the characters did in the world? Why was the idea of titles completely removed in the later editions?

>>53819785
>Why were titles so set in old-school D&D?
You mean the class-level ones? I imagine because D&D grew out of war gaming, and this is one aspect that's a holdover from that kind of thinking. It seems weird to us because we're coming at things from a role-playing perspective, like: what in-character rationale could there be for that kind of thing? But it's more a meta-thing. As to why titles were removed, I imagine it's precisely because they didn't make much sense to people who were approaching things from a role-play perspective.

>>53819785
Because Gygax literally could not wrap his mind around it going any other way. (same justification for Vancian casting)
Because people noticed they were screwy.

Many threads ago, someone posted a list of jobs one could roll for their PC which would also give them a bonus in some skill. I remember one funny detail of the list being that servants or butlers getting a +1 in opening doors.
Would anyone happen to have the document?

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>>53820661
Not quite what you're looking for, but

>>53819335
Yeah I’ve been reading it, but IMO is not optimized for playability like say a standard magic-user is. Am I really going to waste time roleplaying the alchemist going to fields to pick herbs?

>>53821010
What is the alchemist's thing anyway? I thought alchemy was something magic users could do.

>>53821184
I assume he's a Pathfinder refugee.

>>53821335
Still, what is the Pathfinder alchemist all about? I'm having a hard time imagining a dungeoncrawling class based solely on making potions. It really just seems like another option for magic users.

>>53821443
From what little I've played of Pathfinder they seem to be all about making spell-potions and turning into monsters using mutagens.

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>>53821443
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/spell-lists-and-domains/formulae-lists-alchemist/

They throw grenades and cast refluffed spells.

>>53815285
>>53810695
Cervantes is the earliest I've found, being one of the first novelists. I'm sure there are some Italian plays, histories and travelogues floating around that do it as well if you really look. Most use it and similar tropes to satirize the guild system and that's the way I've always ran it because the concept is a bit ridiculous and fits well within weird science fantasy settings that make no goddamn sense.

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The alchemist is a bad concept for a D&D class. Alchemists were eccentrics who spent their time in a lab messing with chemicals, not heroic adventurers. To make them work as a class, they always end up getting morphed into fantasy grenadiers that bear little resemblance to any traditional alchemist. The best way to integrate alchemy into a game is through a crafting system for wizards.

>>53815799
"Enjoying tits". Being afraid of admitting that you like big fat knockers was invented after the Otto motor.

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>>53816073
>if three fighters different fighters are equipped with a sword, axe, and mace, what differences or abilities do each get?
Prick elated.

>>53817638
Hol' up, I got one from a Swedish forum that I translated so I could use it with my online group. I think it might have been written by a lunatic, but whatever, I removed most of his weird spelling and phrasings. I'll link once I get it cleaned up for posting in a pastebin or some shit.

>>53821184
I would want an alchemist who makes cool potions before the play session. He then throws them at monsters for funny effects or gives them to allies to drink.

And I have never played pathfinder.

>>53821642
You could make literally the same argument about wizards.

>>53822104
Wizards make sense if you've ever read any Vance.

>>53822180
So we can’t imagine adventuring alchemists?

>>53822196
You can't. That would be badwrongfun.

>>53822306
That said, an alchemist is a cross between a doctor and a mystic. Some wizard spells, some cleric spells, some first aid/therapy and a few support abilities. Anon has a point that a craft system for wizards is better than handwaving for the sake of a cool concept that's cooler than what everyone else can do. I'm not saying it doesn't work however you do it, but fitting it into OSR where potions are rare and powerful and other classes have overlapping roles is a bitch.

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>>53822078 c >>53818622

They see in the dark, and create Light, Fireballs, and Lightning at will (save or pass out).

The only other thing they do is throw spells, which have a chance of failure from poor production.
Spells being something between a potion, a grenade, and a Rube Goldberg machine.

The relevant parts start at the very bottom of page 31.

>>53821496
>>53821544
>>53822078
That doesn't seem like a good basis for a class. Just make up some rules for making potions.

>>53818671

B1 - In Search of the Unknown (TSR)
B2 - The Keep on the Borderlands (TSR)
Tower of the Stargazer (LotFP)

All contain advice for getting GMs and players through their first game together.

>>53819785
It was a copyright device. Several games prior to D&D had been knockoffs of other games and got away with it by simply using synonyms for a lot of the names. So to prevent "Oubliettes & Wyrms" from coming out with core classes of "Warrior, Wizard, and Priest" and sucking up part of D&D's market like a Chinese knockoff iphone Gygax included all of those level titles so nobody else could use them without risking a lawsuit.

>>53822475
Probably the best part of Dragons at Dawn DESU. I love the idea of crafting spells as consumable items during downtime.

Random professions by highest starting attribute. Anyone help me fill this out or make suggestions?

>>53817638
>>53821981
https://pastebin.com/ap6BE8fg

>>53823297
Good idea! I have some ideas.

Strength: Lumberjack, guard
Constitution: Slave, huntsman
Dexterity: Dancer, street magician
Intelligence: Scribe, translator
Wisdom: Philosopher, advisor
Charisma: Orator, lawyer

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>>53823429
>>53823297
Forgot to upload.

>>53823332
Thanks, I’m trying to put something fun together despite the naysayers.

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Which OSR system isn't especially trying to be lethal and comes with a good dose of Weird built in?

>>53822104
But that's not true at all. There are plenty of examples from mythology and literature of wizards who go on adventures - Merlin, Gandalf, etc. There are none of alchemists who fight by throwing bottles of potions at their enemies. My main objection is that it's an attempt to shoehorn a non-adventuring profession into a adventuring class. It's like trying to make an astronomer class that uses celestial bodies to attack people or an herbalist class that throws unusual plants at enemies. I'm not saying any of those things are bad or can't be fun to play, but they're awkward and contrived compared to the warrior, thief and wizard.

>>53823677
Beyond The Wall comes to mind.

>>53823517
Dexterity nobility could be duelist.
Charisma craftsman could be toymaker.
Wisdom entertainer could be agitator.
Charisma laborer could be town crier.
Constitution forestry could be herder.
Charisma forestry could be animal tamer.
Wisdom servant could be advisor.

>>53823677
Dungeon Crawl Classics, if you consider zany random effects to be Weird.

>>53823816
More unexplained science fantasy and a touch of stellar horror.

>>53823836
Might be more up to the adventure than to the system.

>>53823787
>Charisma craftsman could be toymaker.
>Charisma laborer could be town crier.
GOAT

>>53823332
https://pastebin.com/raw/ap6BE8fg

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>>53815311
Nah. I'm going to take 'em extremely seriously, then get annoyed at myself.
>>53821639
Sounds like you went on an interesting journey.
>>53815799
I swear I found a mention of it called "smothering" somewhere in a ~1400s text.

>>53818671
Obligatory: https://coinsandscrolls.blogspot.ca/2017/06/osr-tomb-of-serpent-kings-megapost.html

>>53823517
Nice!

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I like bookkeeping but not too much bookkeeping. Encumbrance is nice, but I don't trust my players to frequently count up their inventories in pounds. Since most people tend to min-max encumbrance anyways, I made this somewhat lightweight variant that promotes the careful selection of equipment, minimizes the math, and promotes realism.

tl;dr: Encumbrance variant for any game. Thoughts?

>>53823787
>>53823972
>>53825841
Great advice, thanks.

>>53826469
Can you post the final version complete with the roll numbers when it's done? It's a nice table. Good idea.

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https://coinsandscrolls.blogspot.ca/2017/06/osr-class-knights.html

Someone in my games pointed out that generating a martial character (knights, fighters, barbarians, and thieves) wasn't nearly as fun as generating a wizard. I've decided to fix that.

I've also created a neat way to add complications to your starting noble characters and starting regular horses.

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Yo, what up
I love B/X, and I also like a lot of AD&D, particulalry its aesthetic. I know monsters are fairly compatible across editions, but what I really want to know is how compatible classes are.

Like, if I just dumped the AD&D ranger, paladin, bard etc. into B/X, would it still run fine? What if I made B/X versions of all the classes?

Also, thoughts on lowering prime requisite requirements? Thanks

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>>53826684
Define "run fine". You might need to do a bit of tweaking here and there, but yeah, it ought to work. It'll be a fixer-upper, but that's how you learn.

>>53826640
>I've decided to fix that.
Good man. That's one of the most ongoing imbalances in... uh, RPGs in general, I guess, but definitely in all forms of D&D, and even moreso in the OSR editions since the martials rely so much on versatility and player-dictated action.

>>53826684
Like, if I just dumped the AD&D ranger, paladin, bard etc. into B/X, would it still run fine? What if I made B/X versions of all the classes?
The most obvious and thus most easily fixed issue is that all AD&D classes except the Magic-User have a HD one die size "too large" for Basic purposes.

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>>53826753
The class /plays/ really well everything is nice and balanced, so I think the linear fighter/quadratic wizard problem is solved. It's just boring to generate a new knight and fun to generate a new wizard.
Also, some guy a few threads ago said he was working on a way to generate family trees. How's that going?

>>53826684
Lowering the prime requisite breaks certain classes, so you might want to accommodate for that.

>>53826684
>Also, thoughts on lowering prime requisite requirements?
Main thought: it's virtually useless to even include the Paladin, Ranger and (especially) Bard if you don't lower or remove the criteria. For 3d6 in order, the odds of qualifying for the Bard reqs is something like one in a literal million, it's idiotic.

>>53826684
Sure, that's what LL AEC does.

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Campaign Hexagon System: Retrospective

by Anonardia

Don't buy it.

>>53826640
>>53826792
Minor thing in your post: in the Challenge text you've got
>The creature must Save .

Is it supposed to end at Save, or did you mean to insert a save vs. some specific thing?

I'd also quibble with wizards belonging to the Third Estate. Both in terms of Dumézil's social trinity and by medieval standards (where enchanters would often be implied to be apostate monks or raised in a convent, e.g. Morgan le Fay), unless you're a full on wise woman you probably belong to the First Estate by a sort of force majeure or social bastardy.

>>53827220
Adding to this, remember that in medieval France, even *students* de jure belonged to the First Estate and had the right to be judged in canon court, or in any case church authorities vigorously asserted they had that right regardless of whether the secular authorities listened. IIRC that fact saved Villon from hanging at least once, for instance.

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>>53827220
Nope, in this system, there's just a generic Save value. You can Save vs a stat (so you'd Save vs Dex to dodge a fireball, by rolling under your Dex) or Save to avoid dying from a Finger of Death spell (roll under your Save value of 5+Charisma bonus).

Wizards in my setting are reasonably common, low powered, and annoying. They would make a 4th estate in theory but nobody really respects most of them. A newly trained battlefield wizard has a life expectancy of 1 campaign season. A prestigious wizard is about equal to a guildmaster or court doctor, and some end up promoted to the Second Estate.

>>53826640

The more and more I see your content, the more and more intrigued I get about how you present fantasy feudalism.

Any chance we will see a political sort of post about how Wizards (and accomplished people of the third estate, or even lesser people of that estate) are viewed or treated? The lords are legitimate, but Wizards are scary. I want to know how they deal with this.

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>>53827247
Correct, but ammended to *students at the University of Paris and associated universities

They basically got in by studying "divinity" no matter what they were actually studying. And also, /everyone/ claimed benefit of clergy or equivalent if they could. It wasn't much of an indicator of status: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benefit_of_clergy

And the University fought (literally) for their rights from time to time. But they weren't nearly as useful as wizards, and therefore, needed less control. There's a reason my setting isn't ruled by wizards.

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>>53827325
Oh sure! One day. I want to do Fighters first, at least.

Basically, Knights are "Nobles+Fighting on Horseback With Swords"

Fighters are "Survivors+Fighting Everywhere with Everything".

>>53826708
I mean will the AD&D classes be so much better than the standard classes that no one wants to play them/they can't keep up? It would be pretty stupid if, say, the ranger was a better fighter than the fighter, or the paladin was a better healer than the cleric.

>>53826802
>>53827096
My thoughts exactly, but I remember that they made those classes better on the logic that they'd be rarer.

I don't really mind certain classes being rarer, but I do think everyone should be roughly as good at their niche as each other

>>53827180
What's this?

>>53822490
An alchemist prepares a set of potions (which have a 1-shot magical effect) before going adventuring, using their laboratory.
A wizard prepares a set of spells (which have a 1-shot magical effect) before going adventuring, using their spellbook.
Just tweak the wizard's spell-list, have spellcasting be done by drinking a potion rather than vancian memorization, and let the alchemist have a vaguelly portable alchemy kit and recipe book. Voila, you're MU is now successfully hacked to be an alchemist.

>>53826684
AD&D characters are marginally stronger than b/x characters but there isn't really going to be a problem. A few hit points and an extra ability or two isn't going to make or break OSR style balance in a lot of cases.

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>>53827410

>>53827339
>Correct, but ammended to *students at the University of Paris and associated universities
Well yeah, but there really weren't many other students at the time.

>And also, /everyone/ claimed benefit of clergy or equivalent if they could. It wasn't much of an indicator of status
I don't know about that, I'm pretty sure the doctors of the University were represented in the Second Estate, at any rate (and famously the Bishops did definitely exercise authority over the teachings).

Anyway, my point was mainly that the divisions of the estates are by no means rigid. I guess it makes sense that it would at the very least depend heavily on the type of wizard, though. (The Orthodox seem much more credibly university-analogous than the kegare, to take the extremes)

>>53827410
>I mean will the AD&D classes be so much better than the standard classes that no one wants to play them/they can't keep up?
Ah. The Bard is full retard in that regard, unless I'm hopelessly addled. The Paladin and Ranger are a bit beefier than the Fighter to the extent that I'd at least compare them carefully; at the time AD&D was written it seems to have been very common for people to have preferred those subclasses over the regular Fighter. (Note for instance the rule that says there can't be more than two rangers in a given party)

so do players ever get to increase their base stats? or is HP the only thing that changes with levels?

Can someone point me to Fire on the Velvet horizon in the trove?
I'm having difficulties.

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>>53827738
>Anyway, my point was mainly that the divisions of the estates are by no means rigid.

Oh absolutely. But remember that the article is written about Knights, who firmly believe that they are.

The article on Fighters will poke holes in that. The article on Paladins might set it on fire.

And yeah, I can't see a kegare wizard ever entering any estate. They are outlaws through and through.

Unless you're in Foreign Parts, that is.

>>53826640
This is dope as shit. I'm beyond envious that I couldn't make my classes as cool. Thank you for contributing so much to this board!

>>53826640
I'm not a fan of multiple attacks per round.
There are less tedious ways to boost average damage.

>It might even be prohibitively expensive. If you want to be an Fallen Knight, [....] You are an outlaw. As a starting character, your first month of expenses is covered.
It might even be prohibitively expensive. As a starting character, your first month of expenses is covered. If you want to be an Fallen Knight, [...] You are an outlaw.

>Bows are widely available and their use is encouraged, but outside of hunting a knight, would never use a bow.
Bows are widely available and their use is encouraged, but outside of hunting a knight would never use a bow.

>if you want to avoid the GM rolling on the "Horse Complication and Messy Death" table (not published),
if you want to avoid the GM rolling on the "Horse Complication and Messy Death" table (not published yet),

>>53808655
> you say "10. Fog" twice.

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>you will never have a roleplaying blog everyone talks about and shills ITT

>>53827739
saves change, too. As does everybody's chance to hit (or just the fighter in LotFP). And classes with skills like thieves and rangers improve their skill chances.
The thing is, your base stats going up as you level would result in the above numbers going up. You get the same change in play by just improving them directly, with less maths.

>>53827776
iirc FotVH doesn't have a PDF.

>>53828014
thank you.

>>53827739
There are various magic items that increase stats in Supplement I: Greyhawk and in AD&D; magic books, effectively. I think a canonically permitted don't-fuck-with-this use of Wish is to increase a stat by one point.

Conventionally there are also stat-changing fountains and other dungeon features, especially in Basic where everything's a bit fast and loose and especially in situations where the effects of the feature are random (so might as well be bad, thus potentially inhibiting players from going overboard with it).

>>53828012
Step 1: start your blog, fag.

Personally, I'm happy to just help out with suggestions, throw an occasional idea or bit of OC into the thread and shitpost about medieval France, but that's me.

>>53828048
Sadness. Thank you.

>>53827339
>There's a reason my setting isn't ruled by wizards.
Because the powerful ones tend to die /really/ nasty deaths alongside everyone remotely nearby?

I'd been under the impression anyone who actually overcame their Doom would either carve themselves some territory or get lynched.

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>>53827975
Eh, it's not so difficult! Plus I stole most of the ideas from Arnold. If he'd rather be good than weird, I'd rather be gamable than weird.

>>53828005
>I'm not a fan of multiple attacks per round. There are less tedious ways to boost average damage.

Absolutely true. Even just a flat +4 to Attack would do the same.

But this is so damn satisfying for players. It's the holy grail of reaching level 2. The psychological value is the main goal, and trust me, I've seen it work really well.

>>53828005
Thanks for the edits.

>>53828143
>I'd been under the impression anyone who actually overcame their Doom would either carve themselves some territory or get lynched.

Correct. You can also avoid Dooms by never casting spells with your full (3 or 4 MD) power, and Mishaps by never using 2 MD. That's what apprentices are for.

>>53828116
Agreed. Just write stuff.

>>53828416
>If he'd rather be good than weird, I'd rather be gamable than weird.
By his own assertion he'd rather be weird than good, actually. But your point still makes sense even with that in mind.

>>53818671
Saga of the Giants (BFRPG)

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>>53828804
I got it backwards because I'm tired.

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Let me see if I've got this straight

The nasty people who apply their inner trash
become horrible monsters, unless the
• get clean
• are already horrible monsters

The people who cast off weakness
lose their humanity, unless they
• piece-mail replace it from animals
• have an abusive relationship with their double
• get funky tattoos (???)

The Thieves Guild members
get dragged to hell in a flood, unless they
• fight off a nasty beasty while really scared
• pull a Corpse Untie Immortal
• run away forever

The charlatans who trick Nature
get lynched by Nature, unless they
• kiss ass (to Nature)
• run away

The snides who harness beauty
go feral, unless they
• kiss ass (to alien monsters)
• build a house with a nice view

The people who impose semiotics
lose their mind, unless they
• tend an orchard
• wrestle a forest

The people who mimic alternate world
detach from the world, unless they
• eat an enlightened contemporary
• kill several alternate yous

The people who dance corpse puppets
get killed by the dead, unless they
• fight back really, really well
• eat an immortal
• reach an agreement with the dead

The people who don't actually bother doing magic
lose the ability to do magic (oh, the horror!), unless they
• eat an alien monster
• seduce an alien monster

The dubious breath doctors
becomes a stray shadow, unless they
• never go in thee dark
• Spelljam to the sun

>>53828416
>If he'd rather be good than weird
You, too, need an editor.

He'd rather be weird than good.

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>>53827219
What I like about the CHS is the big hexagon drawn on the grid of little hexagons. It sends a clear message: expand out some of your hexes in 25x detail

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>>53828912
Remember what I said about being cryptic?

For those of you tuning in from home, anon here is referring to: https://coinsandscrolls.blogspot.ca/2017/03/osr-wizard-schools-stolen-from-goblin_7.html
in what I think is an attempt to be pointlessly hostile and/or drive off OC and/or genuine confusion. Not sure which concerns me more. Did you really think I didn't plan these out?

Animist Wizards
Correct. You're fucked unless you a) give up your corrupt ways or b) make the world a worse place. Think "Spirited Away" or "Shadow of the Colossus"

Biomancers
>The people who cast off weakness
Back up a step. I haven't even written these guys up yet! You don't get to tell me what the hell they're all about!

And yes. You're fucked unless you a) acquire stability by tasting as much variety as you can, b) proving that your soul is fixed even if your body isn't (and since the soul controls the body...), c) nail your body to the fabric of reality.

Drowned Wizards
>The Thieves Guild members
Baseless speculation.
>fight off a nasty beasty while really scared
Yup. Turns out, if you spurn the ocean, it will eventually get the hint. Eventually. Maybe.
>pull a Corpse Untie Immortal
I do not understand. But probably? The ocean loves and respects secrets. This is covered in the main post:
http://coinsandscrolls.blogspot.ca/2017/06/osr-drowned-wizards.html
> run away forever
Not forever. Hell is very organized. If you're on the list, you're safe.

School: Elementalist
>The charlatans who trick Nature
Why do you keep reading into this stuff?
Look. It's covered here. https://coinsandscrolls.blogspot.ca/2017/03/osr-elementalist-wizards.html
You can get away from the elements completely (essentially, hide, and they don't know what you are) or you can work for them.

Cont'd

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>>53829112
>>53828912

Elf Wizards
http://coinsandscrolls.blogspot.ca/2017/05/osr-elves-and-elf-wizards.html
>The snides who harness beauty
Ok, well, you got that one right. It's not really "harnessing" so much as "claiming". Does the eagle harness the air?
And yes. They either have to find a High Elf to fix them (elves are not... stable. In any way). Or claim a bunch of beauty for yourself and use it to stabilize your soul.

Garden Wizards
>The people who impose semiotics
WHERE ARE YOU GETTING THIS AND ALSO WHY ARE YOU GETTING THIS

Anyway, yes. You stop being you and start being something more tree-like or more plant-like or just more spread out unless you a) assert control over creation or b) go on a Mystic Quest to kill the heart of a forest and push civilization out a few more miles.

School: Illusionist
http://coinsandscrolls.blogspot.ca/2017/03/osr-illusionist-wizards.html
>eat an enlightened contemporary
Nope. Eat a pure magic creature and lock your soul in place by borrowing its power. Or laminate your soul in triplicate. Nail down the "real you".

Necromancers
>The people who dance corpse puppets
And more. Also, all correct. Yes. You did it.

Orthodox Wizard
>The people who don't actually bother doing magic
Dude... dude...
https://coinsandscrolls.blogspot.ca/2017/03/osr-100-orthodox-spells.html
Staph.

Also, yes, correct. Either reach the apotheosis of your school by living in your own spells, or enjoy the love of a magical creature to stabilize your soul (warning: bad plan, do not do) or kill one and borrow its power (traditional). Or just get apprentices. For an orthodox wizard, not being a wizard anymore is worse than death.

Wizard of the White Hand
>The dubious breath doctors
Now you're just stringing words together because I haven't posted a damn thing about these guys. You've got nothing to go on.

And yes, correct. It's not just the Illusionists who need the light.

Well now that we've resolved that, any further questions?

>>53827180
>Sure, that's what LL AEC does.
I came here to post this.

>>53827410
>What's this?
Labyrinth Lord's Advanced Edition Companion is an attempt to retain Basic's simpler core while adding on the options of AD&D without the unnecessary, fiddly bullshit.

As far as to how B/X compares with AD&D, one thing to note is that hit dice are larger for classes in AD&D -- every class is one step higher, except for the ones still at d4 hit dice, like magic-users (LL's AEC addresses this compatibility issue by retaining Basic's smaller hit dice). Also, fighter's multiple attacks in AD&D give them a considerable boost. And in B/X, magic-users have fewer spells to select from, and are very limited in the number of spells they can know, which definitely impacts their power.

So overall, AD&D is definitely a step up in power. There's also the question of how you do attribute bonuses. AD&D is stingier with them (you have to have a higher score to get the same bonus), but then advocates using a more generous method of stat generation. So I'm not sure where that leaves you.

So if I were going to run a game with AD&D classes and B/X classes, I would either Basic-ify the AD&D classes (smaller hit dice, no multiple attacks, use Basic spell lists or an AD&D spell list pared down to be equivalent to a Basic spell list), boost Basic classes (multiple attacks, larger hit dice, expanded spell selection), or maybe combine the two (just shrink the AD&D hit dice, give B/X fighters multiple attacks, and maybe be a bit more generous as to how many spells magic-users can learn, while still using the B/X spell lists).

>>53816073

Check out the weapon tag rules here: http://www.lastgaspgrimoire.com/arts-crafts-morbidly-encumbered-edition/

>>53823677

Into the Odd

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>>53829112
>Well now that we've resolved that, any further questions?
No, but I'll try to explain where I'm coming from.

>Back up a step. I haven't even written these guys up yet!
I have no explanation. I don't know where that came from.

>Baseless speculation.
That's what those thirsty wizard want you to think!
>I do not understand. But probably?
Sending your effigy to the afterlife to stave off death.
>The ocean loves and respects secrets.
I remembered this but forgot to write it.
That was a big post. Sned edit or plox.
>Not forever. Hell is very organized.
>Survive it by [...] hiding.
Post 3rd Doom, you can't die a non-drowning death to flee hell?
Live the rest of your natural life on a mountain while the rest of Creation goes all Windwaker?

>Why do you keep reading into this stuff?
https://coinsandscrolls.blogspot.ca/2017/03/osr-what-does-elemental-want.html

>AND ALSO WHY ARE YOU GETTING THIS
I was under the impression that Garden Wizards were to Druids what Anti-Paladins are to Paladins.
Speaking of which, how well do Doomed Elf Wizards get along with Druids?

>Eat a pure magic creature
You've drawn a lot of parallels between illusionist and beholders.
But sure, that makes more sense.

>Dude... dude... >Staph.
Might be mixing an Anon's post you up with yours.
I thought powerful Orthodox Wizards were basically UU Faculty?

>Now you're just stringing words together because I haven't posted a damn thing about these guys.
https://boards.fireden.net/tg/thread/52449385/#52458664

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>>53829837
Wait, are you the guy who's posting on 1998 laptop from some dungeon cell somewhere? MSpaintguy?

Anyway,
>Post 3rd Doom, you can't die a non-drowning death to flee hell?
If you survive it, the ocean will leave you alone, and you won't go to hell upon drowning. You have to stand in line with everyone else.

>Garden Wizards were to Druids what Anti-Paladins are to Paladins.

Correct...ish... But your statement still makes no sense.

>do Doomed Elf Wizards get along with Druids

Nobody gets along with druids, but post-Doom, what's left of an elf wizard will get along as fine as any pale, naked, and stupid creature in a pack of wolves.

>I thought powerful Orthodox Wizards were basically UU Faculty?

Nope. They are organized, they have a faculty, but they are constantly building, deploying, and testing new spells. They're the original battle mages.

> damn thing about these guys.
Still doesn't count.

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>>53829915
>But your statement still makes no sense.
Arnold K's Druids are all about driving out symbolism and interpretation, right?

>start being something more tree-like or more plant-like or just more spread out
They have bad memory? I thought they just moved slow.
Why do Garden Wizards (or Elves) talk with them?

>>53812189

A room full of Mercury would kill you as soon as you opened it. Mercury gives off lethal fumes.

>>53826640

>Crossbows are knight killing weapons
>The rocket launchers of their day

Please stop spreading this myth.

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How do you feel about anthropomorphic animals in your OSR?

>>53831235

They work for more whimsical/fey or folklore-ish settings

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>>53831271

What if it's still pretty gritty but you just like the idea of a setting with lots of weird ass races everywhere, or maybe an even weirder setting where people can have sex with mountains to make trolls or whatever, and also animal people come from that kind of stuff too?

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50 dungeon prisoners, as requested last thread.

>>53831327

You can mix gritty and whimsical. They aren't necessarily opposed. Look at Mouse Guard for example. Pretty stock folklore animal tale with extremely gritty stories.

Really, even Grimm's Fairy Tales were pretty gritty now that I think about. Most of the fantastic animals in those stories ate people or died gruesomely.

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>>53831327
>>53831458

Also, there are a lot of historical drawings of mythological animal-headed people, like Cynocephali and these amusing killer bunnies that monks drew for apparent laughs.

>>53831235
As long as I don't have a furry in the group they're fine. Better if they aren't the type of animal that people generally like. (i.e. no wolf-people or cat-people)

>I'm not sure if Arnold intended the "+1 attack" in his Fighter template to be "+1 to your Attack stat" or "+1 Attack Per Round". I've gone with the latter for the Knight. A competent owlbear can claw/claw/bite in one round.
Checking his blog and weapons rules, he intended it to be the attack stat. But this is cool anyway

Has anyone tried beneath the inverted church?

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>>53833012
Nope, and I have never heard about it before.
Just looked it up, this is some true edgecore.

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>>53831111
>Please stop spreading this myth.
It was a myth at the time too. It's not nessesarily correct, but it's dealt with as correct. See: assault rifle bans vs pistol deaths in the USA.

But I'll happily accept a modern, extremely long source.

>>53832435
Oh it's under /weapons/. Oh good.

>>53831456
Neato!

>>53830852
Incorrect-ish. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mausoleum_of_the_First_Qin_Emperor

>>53830069
>Arnold K's Druids are all about driving out symbolism and interpretation, right?
Yes, but saying that Garden Wizards are about semiotics is like saying anti-paladins are about /not/ wearing plate armour because paladins wear plate armour. It's wrong and incidental anyway.

>Why do Garden Wizards (or Elves) talk with them?
Why so many questions, damn! It's not like we'll figure this out during play or anything.

>>53833074
> "seduce doors open"

Who writes this shit? More importantly, who buys it?

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>>53831851
If you think about it, Gamma World could be a furry's wet dream, but it's never come across as being questionable, at least to me. Then again, I first started playing Gamma World long before the internet came around and the whole furry thing became a thing, so for all I know, kids today might find it a bit iffier.

>>53834378
They go around teaching symbols to plants and forcing them into patterns.
Their second Doom kills their pattern recognition.
Their third strips them of the symbols and patterns they use to predict the future.

Sounds semiotic to me.

>>53834378
>Oh it's under /weapons/. Oh good.
Yeah, seems like the intent was that multiple attacks are weapon special attacks + cleave, and that they come at a price of accuracy.
Took me ages to find

>>53831235
I'm pro Kenku.

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>>53831235
The Known World (later called Mystara) has lots of different beast-men.

Cay-Men, Chameleon Man, Gnoll, Kobold, Lizard Man, Lycanthropes (including Devile Swine), Merman, Newt, Phanaton, Rakasta, Ratling, Sasquatch, Triton, Troglodyte, Cryion, Faenare, Frog Folk, Gator Man, Hutaakan, Kna, Lupin, Manscorpion, Medusa, Minotaur, Nagpa, Saberclaw, Shark-kin, and Tortle

Any good suggestions for a module that can feasibly be done with minimal combat? For reasons, I find myself in need of such.

I don't mean an adventure without any enemies, but an adventure where you can feasibly get around hostiles without resorting to combat?

Granted, pretty much any module CAN be noncombative if you allow it, but I'm looking for one with a lot of social opportunities and maybe a puzzle focus, or something like that. Just in general, a module that feels like it could be played through without sword swinging.

>>53836940
Low level? Try Prison of the Hated Pretender. It's free and by the Dungeon of Signs guy, circumstances prevent me from digging up a link for you but you should be able to find it with ease.

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>>53836940
Tomb of Horrors is a shit dungeon, but you can do the whole thing without fighting.
Unless you open the chest full of snakes.

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Updated list of professions by highest stat. The table has...expanded...

Looking for any more suggestions that you might have.

>>53837441
Still no prostitutes? Come on.

>>53837441
Nobility/Constitution: Poison Taster
Nobility/Dexterity: Wastrel
Nobility/Intelligence: Tutor
Craftsman/Charisma: Confectioner
Entertainer/Strength: Freak
Men-at-Arms/Constitution: Messenger
Men-at-Arms/Wisdom: Rat Catcher
Men-at-Arms/Charisma: Diplomat
Servant/Charisma: Courtesan
Religious/Strength: Gardener
Religious/Dexterity: Scribe

No ideas for Nobility/Strength or Servant/Wisdom.
Also, you list Knight twice.

>>53837497
Laborer/Constitution

>>53837676
>Men-at-Arms/Charisma: Diplomat
Not to happy with the one all of a sudden.
Headhunter?

>>53837710
I'm thinking Standard Bearer and Trumpeter for Charisma.

>>53837878
I don't know about Trumpeter for Charisma, but Standard Bearer is definitely a Strength activity.

I received my copy of Vaginas are Magic today.
If anyone has questions about it, I can answer.

>>53840439
My question is, literally why?

>>53840439
Are they magic?

>>53840439
My question is, figuratively why?

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>>53835257
Ah well, doesn't really matter now.

My draft has Cleave limited to "character level targets per round", so 4-8, pretty much.

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Speaking of, I've finished my GLOG Fighter post.

https://coinsandscrolls.blogspot.ca/2017/06/osr-class-fighters.html

Trying to make rolling up a martial character as interesting as rolling up a Wizard, one post at a time.

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>>53840439
Is the end boss hard?

Also, favorite sentence so far? Not "best", in terms of quality, because that's not going to happen.

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>>53831111
After sleeping on it, I've amended the post to be more clear.

>>53836940
You can do
>>53825841
with no combat. I'd amend the Stone Cobra Guardian slightly, but otherwise, it's completely sneak-able.

>>53837441
Very nice!

>>53840693
I don't know.

>>53842021
Yes.

>>53842164
It's a joke, I think.

>>53842738
>Is the end boss hard?
No, it's moist.

>Also, favorite sentence so far?
"The subject goes full volcanic, and the sexual discharge is effectively magma."

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>>53842825
Your blog posts are so good. I don't know how you do it.

t. Skerples

>>53842465
>1-in-every-120 female fighters is a polymorphed man

>>53842465
- Isn't 2 attacks/round at first level a little too strong?
- Fighters get extra attack and parry at first level, but Knight only gets extra attack at second level, and Parry at third level. I don't know what I should I feel about this
- If you are trying to make martials interesting, doesn't giving the same abilities to different classes defeat the purpose?
- I don't like Notches: a) they incentive the player to get "last hit", not to actually fight the monster b) incentive the player to fight, even though OSR isn't abot this c) it's another thing the player needs to keep track of
- +2 to attack although pretty strong is a boring ability

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>>53842897
>"The subject goes full volcanic, and the sexual discharge is effectively magma."

Splendid. Pyroclastic blow.

>>53842910
I just write down a bunch of words.

Seriously though, I try to think about how to make my posts really, really gamable and grounded. I have a degree in a useful field for OSR games. I have some free time and lots of motivation.

Plus, this blog isn't my first kick at the can. I try to write 2000-3000 words per day to keep in practice. They say the first million words you write are going to be shit, so I figure I might as well try for two million.

>>53842966
>I have a degree in a useful field for OSR games
You made me curious, which degree you have?

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>>53842944
1-in-every-120 female fighters /created using this table/ is a polymorphed man.

Some of them are probably higher.

>>53842945
>Isn't 2 attacks/round at first level a little too strong?

Maybe? Probably not though.

Your basic Attack stat is 11. If you're trying to hit someone with leather armour, you're rolling Attack -2, so 9 or under.

Even doubling that per round doesn't seem that ludicrous.

>-Fighters get extra attack and parry at first level, but Knight only gets extra attack at second level, and Parry at third level. I don't know what I should I feel about this

Fighters are good at fighting. Knights think they are good at fighting. They are also from different Estates. It's more important than you might think.

>If you are trying to make martials interesting, doesn't giving the same abilities to different classes defeat the purpose?

Probably, but it also ties them together. Inventing new mechanics just for the sake of it seems like bad design. Down that path lies ungamable homebrews.

>b) incentive the player to fight, even though OSR isn't abot this
Correct. See the "mechanics" section. One of the major flaws/downsides/Dooms of Fighters is that they fight.

> c) it's another thing the player needs to keep track of
I'm fine with that. If they fuck it up, it's on them. Not my problem.

> they incentive the player to get "last hit
With how desperate fights usually are, and how the initiative system works, that seems... unlikely.

>+2 to attack although pretty strong is a boring ability
True, but sometimes you have to eat your Mechanics meat to get your Zany pudding.

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>>53842917
Yes?
>>53843011
One in Science, one in Ancient and Medieval History.

>>53810959
Kevin Crawford made something like tgat in one of his Sandbox magazines.

>>53811354
Please. If Gygax had made magic some form of freeform mess like combat is, you'd insist the current casters couldn't be OSR.

>>53843039
>Even doubling that per round doesn't seem that ludicrous.
You might be right, but still I would do something like this:

A: Parry, +1 Attack stat
B: Notches, +1 attack per round
C: Tricky, +1 Attack stat
D: Impress, Cleave

This seems, imo, more reasonable


> Knights think they are good at fighting. They are also from different Estates. It's more important than you might think.
Could you elaborate on this? Is it a setting thing?

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>>53829065
I think it would have been nicer if the little hexagons were rotated 30° relative to big hexagon. You don't have to draw the outline of the superhexagon and chop little hexagons in half that way.

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>>53843157
>Could you elaborate on this? Is it a setting thing?
Yeah, I thought I did, in the Knight post?

Or did you mean the "think they are good at fighting" thing? Because no, that's not a setting thing, not really.

>>53843157
Sure, that could also work. It's just text.

>>53843378
I don't see how being from a different Estates is more important than I might think

I can't imagine how you would think things you don't think.

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>>53843445
It's the difference between the guy who owns one of these and the guy who gets drowned in one.*
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drowning-pit

What's the end goal as a Fighter? What's your aspiration? You /might/ get a title and a gift of land, but that's it. You're done after 1 generation. You will always be an outcast. You will always be a peasant with a bow.

What's the end goal for a Knight? Kingship, maybe. A castle and lands. Prestige. Immortality.

That's the difference.

*Ok, lady who gets drowned in one, but whatever.


We live in a society where, aside from /pol/, everyone thinks everyone else is a person. Nobody's made of special stuff. Everyone's equally qualified to exist. That is /not how it used to work/.

Fighters are from the Estate that's considered to be barely human by the Estate that controls almost everything.

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>>53843504

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I'm going to post some extracts from "A Distant Mirror" that are useful.

Chapter 4
In Flanders at the beginning of the century, the despised commoners had inflicted upon French knighthood an unforgettable defeat. In 1302 the array of French chivalry in splendid armor rode north in support of Flemish urban magnates to crush a revolt of the workers of Bruges. In the clash at Courtrai, French foot soldiers and crossbowmen were about to overpower the Flemish workers—too soon. The knights, frantic for the charge and fearing to lose the honor of victory, ordered their own infantry to fall back, causing them to break ranks in confusion. Shouting their war cries and riding down their own men in wild disorder, the knights charged, ignoring the canals beneath their feet. Horses scrambled and fell, knights plunged into the water, a second wave piled upon the first. The Flemish infantry, armed with pikes, speared them like fish, and holding firm against all assault beat back the knights in a bloody massacre. Seven hundred gold spurs were stripped from knightly corpses after the battle and hung up in triumphant memorial in the church. The loss of so much French nobility caused royal commissioners afterward to scour the provinces for bourgeois and rich peasants prepared to pay for ennoblement.

[...]

Based on the principle that all subjects owed their lives to “defense of country and crown,” the general summons was supposed to be used only when the call to nobles had not or would not suffice to repel the enemy. It was issued, like all public announcements, by “public cry”—that is, by heralds riding forth to proclaim the order aloud in market place and village square. Individual letters also went to towns and abbeys, requisitioning the customary subsidies. Some towns still paid their service in bodies of foot soldiers, hastily assembled, untrained, and virtually useless; others paid in money, which permitted the hiring of more effective mercenaries.

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>>53843656
Actually, you should probably read the whole chapter. Or the whole book. http://erenow.com/postclassical/distantmirror/7.html

And this chapter: http://erenow.com/postclassical/distantmirror/10.html

Truer to the mass is the peasant who cries, in the French tale Merlin Merlot, “Alas, what will become of me who never has a single day’s rest? I do not think I shall ever know repose or ease.… Hard is the hour when the villein is born. When he is born, suffering is born with him.” His children go hungry, holding out their hands to him for food; his wife assails him as a poor provider. “And I, unhappy one, I am like a rooster soaked in the rain, head hanging and bedraggled, or like a beaten dog.”

A deep grievance of the peasant was the contempt in which he was held by the other classes. Aside from the rare note of compassion, most tales and ballads depict him as aggressive, insolent, greedy, sullen, suspicious, tricky, unshaved, unwashed, ugly, stupid and credulous or sometimes shrewd and witty, incessantly discontented, usually cuckolded. In satiric tales it was said the villein’s soul would find no place in Paradise or anywhere else because the demons refused to carry it owing to the foul smell. In the chansons de geste he is scorned as inept in combat and poorly armed, mocked for his manners, his morals, even his misery. The name Jacques or Jacques Bonhomme to designate a peasant was used by nobles as a term of derision derived from the padded surplice called “jacque” which the peasant wore for protective armor in war. The knights saw him as a person of ignoble instincts who could have no understanding of “honor” and was therefore capable of every kind of deceit and incapable of trust. Ideally he should be treated decently, yet the accepted proverb ran, “Smite a villein and he will bless you; bless a villein and he will smite you.”

(only 1 more post, I promise)

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>>53843715
An extraordinary passage from the tale Le Despit au Vilain breathes hatred with an intensity that seems more than mere storytelling. “Tell me, Lord, if you please, by what right or title does a villein eat beef?… And goose, of which they have plenty? And this troubles God. God suffers from it and I too. For they are a sorry lot, these villeins who eat fat goose! Should they eat fish? Rather let them eat thistles and briars, thorns and straw and hay on Sunday and pea-pods on weekdays. They should keep watch without sleep and have trouble always; that is how villeins should live. Yet each day they are full and drunk on the best wines, and in fine clothes. The great expenditures of villeins comes at a high cost, for it is this that destroys and ruins the world. It is they who spoil the common welfare. From the villein comes all unhappiness. Should they eat meat? Rather should they chew grass on the heath with the horned cattle and go naked on all fours.…” These tales were addressed to an upper-class audience. Was this what they wanted to hear, or was it a satire of their attitude?

In theory, the tiller of the soil and his livestock were immune from pillage and the sword. No reality of medieval life more harshly mocked the theory. Chivalry did not apply outside the knights’ own class. The records tell of peasants crucified, roasted, dragged behind horses by the brigands to extort money. There were preachers who pointed out that the peasant worked unceasingly for all, often overwhelmed by his tasks, and who pleaded for more kindness, but all they could advise the victim was patience, obedience, and resignation.

(Hope that helped.)

>>53842465
I'm not sure why you mentioned La Maupin as an example of female fighters since you're staunchly Medievalist in these latest posts and she's a Modern figure; since you're asserting the Fighter as being specifically a Third Estate soldier, it's even odder since she was the daughter of a gentleman and pattern-matches much more to the Knight backgrounds.

>>53843574
>What's the end goal as a Fighter? What's your aspiration? You /might/ get a title and a gift of land, but that's it. You're done after 1 generation. You will always be an outcast. You will always be a peasant with a bow.
This is real time-specific again. I mean, you're not *wrong* as such, but you must be aware that at least as late as Hastings, common men were still being knighted on the battlefield for bravery.

I mean, arguably the cessation of that custom in favor of strict heredity was the real death of feudalism. Don't get me wrong, I'm totally fine with a "this is the Hundred Years War only" setting (in fact, one might say my *own* OSR setting... but I digress), but it seems a bit excessive to assert that BAM, this is inevitable.

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>>53844043
>why you mentioned La Maupin
Literally the only reason is because she makes me laugh with delight. She's a PC. And yes, she fails all the qualifications.

We have really shit sources on the Third Estate to begin with, so I'm not too sad.

>common men were still being knighted on the battlefield for bravery.

Absolutely! And it's in the Fighter post somewhere that you can be granted a title. It just probably won't be hereditary or too important, and it's tricky as hell for an adventurer to make it there. Remember, gamable content. But there are always other options.

Chapter 10
Hired by one or another of the Italian city-states in their chronic wars, Hawkwood could soon command the highest price for his services. However ruthless his methods—and they inspired the proverb “an Italianized Englishman is a devil incarnate”—he spent no time on mere brigandage, but contracted his company to whatever power had the capacity to pay, on either side in any war. He fought for Pisa against Florence and vice versa, for the papal forces against the Visconti and vice versa, and on leaving the service of the Visconti, correctly turned back to Galeazzo the castles the White Company had conquered. War was business to Hawkwood, provided that his contracts exempted him from fighting against the King of England. When he died after 35 years in Italy, rich in lands, pensions, and renown, he was buried in the cathedral of Florence and commemorated by Uccello’s equestrian fresco over the door. National pride in the year of his death reclaimed him; at the personal request of Richard II, his body was returned to England for burial in his native town

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>>53844043
>>53843445
>>53843157
>>53843011
>>53842944
Also, are the extra materials and articles I link to in my posts useful? I always wonder if people click on them. I'm not going to stop or anything.