According to the new novel, Cawl had enough Primaris marines

>>53797855
Yes, some of the P-marines have been in stasis for 10K years more or less.

>>53797855
>HERP DERP BUY NEW MODELS FAG.
-Cawl

Would you take a sneak into the garage vault of one of the most powerful motherfuckers in the AdMech and Imperium and not expect to be turned into a toilet cleaning servitor?

>>53797855
well he's a heretek too so...

>>53797855

Let me tell you about GW writers and numbers, on one example.

The number of Space Marines, before we even heard anything about Primaris.

There are said to be around one thousand chapters, counting around one thousand Marines. There are some that count more, not many though. And many are below strength due to casualties. But let us assume that those are not too high and there is about one million loyal space marines.

Now.

Black Legion is about 300 thousand, probably more

Huron is said to have almost the same. Let's say 250 thousand.

Word Bearers - over 150 thousand

Iron Warriors - over 100 thousand

That's 800 thousand already. Add the warbands from the remaining legions and countless renegade warbands.

There should easily be at least twice as many Chaos Marines as there are loyalists.

Which is bullshit. GW numbers are always bullshit. An army of a thousand supersoldiers cannot conquer a star system, even if they are invulnerable to the weapons used against them. So on and so forth.

>>53798003
>There are some that count more, not many though

Dark Angels are said to be at legion strenght on their own, not counting all their successor chapters. Same thing for the BTs. And SWs great companies are said to be as big as a chapter, and they have twelve of those.

>>53797855
I need you to realize the admech mined mars to shit. It's more machine than planet at this point.

Hiding 100.000 marines inside of mars when you'va got access to parts the mainline mechpriests do not know about is shit easy, it really doesn't take up that much space to store marines. Alhtough that number sounds high, it really isn't in the grandscheme of things. Shit that number is actually shit low if your building an army that would enter war on a galactice scale.

Most regular armies of today are lucky to account 40.000 and that's just to protect their slab of dirt. Even at full strength before the heresy with all 18 legions account for +/- 2.700.00 men that is not enough for a galactic army or even a feasible peace keeping force.

>>53798003
>Black Legion is about 300 thousand, probably more

Source?

Where are you getting those numbers

>>53798050

Dark Angels are NOT legion strength where did you get this idea?

Sure if you look at successor chapters, the Blood Angels, Fists, Ultras and Angels are practically a legion if they ever call but above strength chapters like Black Templars are only "1200" marines.

Wow 1200 marines, such big rule breaking. 5-7k at least makes their crusading everywhere somewhat plausible but 1200, what is that one extra crusading fleet?

>>53798050
>Dark Angels are said to be at legion strenght on their own, not counting all their successor chapters.
Wrong. Dark Angels are accused of legion building though by many because all successor chapters report to Azrael (mainly because of the Fallen). But the chapter is only ever at chapter strength.

>Same thing for the BTs.
hardly. they used to have around 6000 marines distributed among various crusades, but never in one place. in the new fluff however they are barely above chapter strength - which is a shitty retcon, if you ask me.

>And SWs great companies are said to be as big as a chapter, and they have twelve of those.
wrong. in the old fluff, great companies used to have 120 fighting men, not a chapter's worth.

>>53798115

Various sources man. I think number of Black Legionaries was mentioned in their supplement, I cannot remember. Word Bearers are from the third book of Word Bearers trilogy, and I cannot recall the Iron Warriors one.

I am aware I have given unsourced info, but the source is hard to find since there is no one place where Traitor Legions current strength is listed. This is no fanwank or headcannon though, it's all in GW/BL sources.

>>53798003
>Huron is said to have almost the same. Let's say 250 thousand.

Not to say GW is good or consistent with numbers. But that cannot possibly be true. The Red Corsairs are still made up of the remnants of a beat up renegade chapter. 1000 + various warbands could make them 2-5k sure whatever I could believe it. Thats a force that can bring a sector to its knees. But 250,000 chaos marines could carve out a dark imperium and no one could stop it.

The best way to back calculate would be to figure out what chapters have committed to the attack and defense of certain systems or campaigns.

The 13th Black Crusade, the most devastating attack into the Imperium to date mustered

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/13th_Black_Crusade#Chapters_of_the_Adeptus_Astartes

28 chapters. Some at full, others at very minimal strength. For the sake of calculation let's say they are full chapters.

That makes them 28,000 marines mustered against the biggest danger to the Imperium in this millennium. Now there could be more or less chaos marines but the Imperium would have committed a force to try and match and defeat Chaos. It certainly could be 50,000 chaos marines that is at least a "realistical" ball park figure but certainly not 300,000.

>>53797855
it always cracks me up when i hear that a space marine chapter is only 1000 men strong. i don't care how super they are they aren't accomplishing shit even on a planetary scale with such a small force.

>>53798192
A plague marine died to a few dozen imperial guardsmen, I can't see how 250k CSM could carve out their own empire when the planetary defence forces number in tens of millions.

>>53798003
Space marines dont conquer a system on their own, they just win all the battles. Its up to the administratum, navy, guard, pdf, ecclesiary, inquisition, and any other imperial orginization involved to instill government and order after the space marines leave.

And even then its generally a surgical strike, a single stubborn fortress normal guard assaults and bombardments cant take, but a terminator assault can. Stuff like that. Remember that a platoon of normal soldiers follow in the footsteps of each super soldier. Thats how I think about it anyway.

>>53798192

Exactly, that's what I am talking about. The GW numbers are bullshit, especially the example I have given. Huron is often said to be close rival to Abaddon when it comes to the forces he commands. Also, Angron was said to lead his Dominion of Fire with fifty thousand Berzerkers at his back. Fifty fucking thousand. And it was Angron's own campaign of genocide. That would bean Abaddon, when uniting the various Legions and warbands, would actually command hundreds of thousands of Traitor Legionarries, many of them veterans of the Long War, and untold billions of heretical troops. Which means he would pulverise the twenty eight chapters and their allies rallied against him without breaking sweat.

Which again leads us to conclusion, GW numbers are bullshit. Almost all the time.

>>53798128
GW re retconned that to them being several thousand again according to the indeces. I have no idea about where the guy is grabbing his other numbers though.

>>53798234

Either a space marine chapter can take a world of a hundred million humans or it falls to a dozen baseliners.

We cant have both. One of these has to be an edgecase that rarely happens because even during the golden age of the Great Crusade 200k marine legions were limited to just the Ultras and Iron Warriors IIRC.

>>53798234
You're literally retarded congratulations. No really, if you dont understand the inconsistency of 40k fluff then you must have an IQ of 40.

>>53798245
Its almost like the fluff exists to push their miniatures on us.

>>53798282

Or like they don't actually give a fuck

>>53798367
Pretty sure its that the fluff exists to sell miniatures. Sorry to boost your bubble, kid.

>>53798226
This, chapters should be at least 10k battle ready marines for the kind of losses you hear about them taking in the fluff. It's even more ridiculous when you think about how few vehicles they have and how easily destroyed those are. Oh, a Tau storm surge just BTFO 3 of your chapters priceless landraiders and 6 of your rhinos, there goes half of your armory!

10k marines
Several hundred tanks and aircraft
Thousands of scouts/neophytes to keep up with attrition
That would make far more sense

>>53798410
Werent the legions organized exactly like that during the great crusade?

>>53798434
legions were anywhere from 100k to 200k strong.

>this is supposed to be a force large enough to take a planet
>this is a force that can beat an ork waaagh or tyranid fleet numbering in the billions
>this force is equal to millions of guard
Wut. Anything but legion strength seems ridiculous

>>53798548
even legions sound a bit undermanned when you look at the numbers. for example the real world US army has 1.4 million men. that is one country, on one planet. ultramarines when the horus heresy started had about 250,000 men.

>>53797855
Whenever someone asked, he shouted at them looking very menancingly. If someone couldn't be shouted down, he just got indignant, told them to stay out of his business, he does everything for the Emperor, yadda yadda. Seriously, the guy is insufferable cunt, I am glad to be off this rock soon.

Sincerely, Likehell Iam Givingyou Myname

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>>53798003
>Now.
>Black Legion is about-
They didn't actually use hard numbers for the traitors until the old designers started to leave and the crazies took over. Everything under The Overfiend was handled as if it were an in-universe document.

>>53798434
Individual chapters of the legions could have that many, yes.

>>53798579
That is an analogy that only makes sense if marines fought like conventional forces like today's military, which they emphatically don't.
A SM campaign involves blowing up shit from orbit, sending down elite strike teams to disable shields so that they can blow shit up from orbit, then sending down simultaneous rapid insertion forces to every major leadership stronghold via drop pod, uparmored smash and kill gunships and teleporters, killing all the heads of state, and fucking off.
They do not stay to pacify the populace, they destroy their ability to fight and cow the planet into surrendering, which also happens to be a victory state, and the fleet buggers off to the next world, maybe leaving a single strike cruiser to watch for embers to be crushed before heading off.

>>53798579
But marines weren't the only combatants during that conflict, were they?

>>53798579
The US army counts clerks and cooks as soldiers. Space Marines are almost all fighters.
Think before you post anon.

whenever they say "a company conquered a planet in two hours" someone else than marines did most of the work

>>53798812
Even if only 10% of soldiers were actual fighters, it would still be over half of the marines. And again, one country. I think ge has a point.

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>Started new army of Iron Knights SM
>Red shirt recommends Primaris Marines
>Explain that lore-wise they're on a penitent crusade
>Watch him bend over backwards trying to sell me these new models without infringing upon lore again

>>53797855
Of all the bullshit that has happened in 40k lore, THIS is what twists your arm?

>>53798579
Actual combat personnel is like 10% of that if not less. The guard should have at least the same ratio, if not more in favour of the support if we count the navy too. Marines are 1000+ only for the combat guys, and each of them will require more than 10 servitors and serfs

>>53798897
More like "A full company crashed through Evil McBadguys roof, slaughtered everyone inside and disabled the shielings. Then the Guard cleaned up the rest. BUT HOLY EMPERORS ASSHAIR, HAVE YOU HEARD? SPACE MARINES! MOTHERFUCKING SPACE MARINES ACTUALLY EXIST! THE EMPERORS ANGELS OF DEATH ARE ACTUALLY REAL!"
To most of the Imperium the arrival of Space Marines would be like the second coming of Jesus, only this time he's a 7 foot tall, walking tank that is mightily pissed. Nobody cares about the Guard after a spectacle like that.

>>53798003
Your BL and RC numbers are massively inflated anon.

>>53798115
Hes not, hes padding the actual numbers, doing the math wrong, or headcannoning without knowing it.

>>53798897

I don't know about you, but if I was a non-heretic, non-cultist force, I would immediately surrender the moment I heard that the Space Marines had taken the field.

I mean, fuck fighting Space Marines. No way we're doing that.

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>>53798897
nah, space marines don't have to make sense

>>53798050
>Dark Angels are said to be at legion strenght on their own
No they are not.

They are functionally a legion because all their successors still report to and take orders from the Rock.

Officially, however, they are not a legion. The only Chapter that might qualify is the Black Templars, but there are varying sources that decry their numbers.

>>53799153
That sums up most of the Wh40K universe. To expect logic and realistic consistency is a folly. It's mostly rule of cool turned up as high as the knob allows. Then someone ripped off the knob, got some pliers and turned it some more.

>>53798968
How did he proceed from there? "They can't have those because of defining fluff reason" seems pretty definite, like how my Reductor have no automata because they're Genetors and mistrust them to fuck, so I make counts-as monsters instead.

>>53800199
He was trying to argue that I could run them as an allied unit helping them with their crusade. I'm not a WAAC player, I don't really give a shit about the new stuff, I just like running fun fluffy armies but he was too blinded by sales speech to realise.

>>53798003
>Word Bearers - over 150 thousand

Word Bearers have only one tenth of the numbers of the Black Legion.

>>53798753
I want to read a story about Marines trying that kind of thing on a proper military target world like a Forge World or something else with properly scaled infrastructure and armed forces to a galactic scale and getting utterly owned after their oneshot decapitation strike doesn't work.

Thing about that kind of strike is that if there's too much infrastructure and hardened bunkers and such for your paltry 1000 marines to handle, you're fucked. If you stay and fight, you will be bogged down and you will die. They can't take planets that aren't just a couple crappy cities or otherwise extremely centralised because of sheer scale. You'd probably need a at least a few hundred thousand Marines for a lasting campaign like that.

It makes me think that the vast majority of planets in 40k are more a few cities and a bunch of outposts, not a full Hive World or even approaching Earth's current population/industrialization.

>>53800214
Well, it's a new edition and new models. Obviously they will try to push it onto everyone.

>>53797908
2nd post best post

>>53800214
>Random allies showing up for no reason.
Body. Unless I have a converted model and are just using the rules for the need of having rules the furthest I go is the odd Inquisitor hanging around with my Admech, since there's an Ordo that does that.

Never had any of the staff at my local GW try anything like that, but the manager is probably too busy corralling the six million kids.

>>53800277
>approaching Earth's current population/industrialization.

>Implying Earth wouldn't be crippled and dying just by knocking out some satellites and torching farmland

Its like horrible fanfiction.

>>53797855
>>53797884
So what I'm getting from this is that Cawl has the initiative of a fucking calculator.

I mean, sure, the Primaris Marines were made on Guilliman's orders, but Koorland could've REALLY used those to help rebuild the Imperial Fists chapter back in M32 after he became the only Fist left...

Then again, the Mechanicus are a bunch of secretive dicks, so I can't say I'm surprised...

>>53797855
Belisarius Cawl is no mere god

>>53800439
>Koorland could've REALLY used those to help rebuild the Imperial Fists chapter back in M32

Who says they were ready in M32?
It's noted in Dark Imperium that Cawl was busy at the time and barely noticed the Beast.

>>53799010
Not actually true of the guard. The Munitorum comprises the vast majority of logistical support and the Navy itself is beholden only to itself despite ideally working in tandem with guard. IG may as well be 11b by another name. When IG numbers are given it should be assumed that it is close to 90% direct combat personnel.

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>>53799628
>Then someone ripped off the knob, got some pliers and turned it some more.
>And when using pliers failed, that someone simply WILLED the 'rule of cool' knob to go even higher
Because let's be honest here. The Orks are the ones responsible for that knob going so damn high, simply because "Moar dakka an' moar fightin' cool-lookin' gits!"
You're welcome by the way.

>>53800351
Yeah, but we wouldn't be in a huge amount of danger from one thousand guys with basic APCs (Rhinos aren't anywhere near as much better than Chimeras as Marines are to Guardsmen) and regular aircraft. That's more an orbital bombardment, which defeats the point rather. A successful decap strike on a planet as big as Earth only gets a few things of importance, they won't singlehandedly cripple us to the point we can't point enough heavy ordnance at them to deal with their pitiful numbers.

>>53800533
You can't just leave out that Marines have space ships.
When comms go down, supply lines are severed and leadership assassinated your ordnance won't do shit sitting in a shed somewhere.

>>53800523
>That pic
Fucking saved.

>>53800533
If you send a team of superhumans to take down air defenses (assuming they can somehow through magic hit your ships) the power grids possibly a few nuclear silos, then bomb Washington and state capitals to nothing, the US is gone.
Rinse and repeat for other nations, Earth is done for.

If you are lazy: raze the farmlands from orbit.

Since it's the imperium you're talking about you won't even need to worry about multiple nations.

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Guys, space marines don't conquer or defend world, they're more like commandos, they strike deep within the ennemy lines, destroy many strategics targets and go away.

It's the Imperial Guard who defend the worlds of the Imperium.
It's the Imperial Guard who conquer the worlds, not the space marines.

Most of you, also forget that a legion is not only 100k of space marines. It's also a powerfull navy, cohorts of Skitarii, the support of the Legio Titanica and billions of guardsmen.

That was not the 100k SM who make the legions so powerfull, that was the fact that a primarch could command titans, billions of guardsmen and many starships. All of this power concentred. That's what the legions were so good at war.

>>53800635
>SM can't conquer a world
But they can, they can't hold it, but they can take down a world.

>>53800483
>It's noted in Dark Imperium that Cawl was busy at the time and barely noticed the Beast.
Now that I think about it, considering that the Beast showed up and kicked in the Imperium's teeth only a couple thousand years after the heresy, and Corvus Corax was an emo dick/really smart man and didn't share the Emprah's research notes on how to make Primarchs as well as his own experience rapid cloning space marines, you probably have a point.

I'm probably giving Belisaurus "Walking Plot Device" Cawl too much credit on how fast he was creating the Primaris Marines in this scenario...

>>53797855

ya know what's shit?
getting interested in w40k
getting diinterested in w40k because theres no progress in... well, everything
finding out 2-and-a-half years later that it's
ENDTIMES

>>53800635
>It's the Imperial Guard who conquer the worlds, not the space marines.
hey bro you're wrong >>53799153

>>53800701
>ENDTIMES

But things are just heating up.

Honestly guys

You're way overthinking things, it will never make sense.

For one thing 1000 dudes will never be able to carry enough ammo to stem a tyranid hivefleet. How the fuck can 1000 dudes stop 1 million tyranids coming at them?

How can a 100 man battle company teleport into a battleshield with tens of thousands of security crew and have enough ammo to kill all of them?

It will never make sense.

>>53800827
100 bolter rounds each, 10000 mini rockets essentially. Could a Space Marine carry that much? Probably way more really.

Plus sidearms.

Plus melee weapons.

Plus fists.

Plus bombs.

Plus resupplies.

Plus psyker bullshit.

Plus gigantic space-marine cocks

>>53800277
Most chapters would never engage such a target without Imperial support as it would be lunacy.
It would follow more along these lines assuming dedicated Navy and I support:
>IN and SM fleet arrival in system
>fleet powers ahead until contact with opfor defense fleet is made
>torpedo and nova cannon long range barrage commences to break up formations, corral forces, and suppress long range retaliation fire
>SM fleet hangs behind IN firing line performing active auger sweeps to identify enemy defenses
>as fleets close full engagement commences
>narrow spread torpedo salvos are targeted at capital ships and interceptors are launched to screen incoming ordnance
>SM vessels close directly behind vanguard Navy cruisers allowing the heavier vessels to absorb enemy fire and prep engines for full burn
>third torpedo salvo fires in narrow spread
>IN frigates, strike craft, and SM Strike Cruisers ignite full burn directly behind launched ordnance to punch through main opfor fleet
>ships-of-the-line begin an old dance as macro batteries and lances exchange fire while SM forces supported by frigates rush towards planetary orbital defense installations ignoring opfor defense fleet using their speed and the SM vessels' heavy armor to survive the gauntlet
>IN escort frigates interdict enemy reserve forces to make an opening for the Strike Cruisers
>thunderhawks and boarding torpedoes are launched at orbitals, cruisers close with large installations such as orbital docks and space stations
>Space Marines live up to their name sake and commence boarding actions on enemy defenses
>enemy weapons are taken offline or retargeted against defense fleet, greatly supporting the Navy and allowing an avenue for bulk troop landers to the planet's low orbit
>strike cruisers and thunderhawks now begin bombardment and rapid assaults on enemy ground defenses to suppress anti-ship weapons fire to allow transports to land
>approximate time from fleet engagement to planetfall ~1 week

Cont.

>it's a bunch of anons try and apply logic and coherency to 40k writing/fluff episode

How can anyone be into 40k for any length of time and not realize none of it makes any fucking sense , it's shit thrown against a wall to sell plastic models and paint and give a little context to your man-child hobby.

>>53797855
It's pretty much said that there were 40,000 Primaris Marines in the Ultima Founding. Half went to new chapters, 20,000 went to unnumbered sons

>>53801159
Cont.
>SM orbital attacks intensify against ground based defenses; these are the first wave of drop pod assaults
>thunderhawk and land speeder squadrons begin interdiction of ground based response forces to give IG room to breath and organize planetside; more transports can now land with more defenses knocked out by SM strikes
>communication infrastructure becomes priority target for SM forces, followed by power poduction; defense infrastructure and enemy forces are targets of opportunity
>space engagement ends, IN moves into orbit over world
>with outlying comms and power offline enemy defense forces are slow to respond allowing planetside SM forces to evade enemy force concentrations, the ponderous Guard however becomes fully engaged
>targets reprioritize to defense shield generators, munitions depots and air defenses become new secondary targets
>once targets are destroyed SM forces place locator beacons and extract while IG hold ground taken; IN moves into low orbit along with battle barges
>lull in fighting allows enemy forces to surge towards front bringing them out of hardened defenses; high saturation orbital bombardment commences; beacons allowed for accurate targeting of the more specialized SM bombardment cannons against hard targets
>with mushroom clouds still high in the sky, IG forces surge into softened enemy ground; SM launch full scale assault near enemy command targeting any remaining shields and support
>as final ground defenses fall, teleport homers lock and terminator units teleport into the heart of the enemy command echelon
>enemy command and cordination is now dead, major defenses down, enemy logistics heavily disrupted and forces now exposed to further orbital attack
At this point most marine forces extract and the IG commence "mop up" operations (this may still be a full fledged war for many weeks to come but the enemy is blind, disorganized, and starving for want of proper supply lines).

>>53801424
Because it's fun for some people to create some level of internal plausibility even if absurd from an outside perspective. Not everyone prescribes to the "it's magic, I ain't gotta explain shit" approach to settings, even over the top one.
If you don't care for it there is no reason to even be in the thread friend.

>>53797855
Could have taken over the Imperium in the name of whatever greater power.

Clearly, this man is a saint and not a heretek.

>>53800701

I agree. It might be an illusion, but seeing what happened to fantazy wh I can't help but see wh40k getting the same treatment right now.

And it fills me with apprehension, because I can't imagine something more retarded then what became of wh fantazy - Age of Sigmar. But there is a chance that it will be imagined and done by GW.

>>53800664
>>53797855

What seems stranger is that a man lives for 10k years, seems very fishy. He is either a space marine/custodes gone admech, an artificial intelligence or a number of people each becoming successor of memories and work of the previous one.

>>53801719
A thing you are forgetting, though, is that the enemy is also allowed to be smart. They aren't going to sit there while you painstakingly work your way through your list of important targets with less than a thousand Marines. Let's start with a Forge World 'cause we know what's defending those.

First up, several billion Skitarii including their tanks and walkers and such. They can't be taken "out of communication" because the Noosphere is woven into every comms node on the planet, and they sure as hell don't have time to purge the entire net. They won't trade very well individually with Marines, but they can operate for decades without support or infrastructure, and here they are being replaced constantly by the factories. They aren't surrendering, that's for sure.

Second, tens of millions of Cult Mech Kataphrons and similar. Given they can crush Carnifex with torsion beams in about a second, I'd be surprised if they don't kill at least a decent chunk of the Marine skirmishing and sabotage teams given they're dime a dozen and will be fucking everywhere important in the dozens. Also utterly replaceable.

Third, significant orbital defence batteries and void shields over major forge-fanes, which don't do much aside from stopping a direct strike there but do provide staging posts.

The enemy forces will not necessarily be slow as fuck and consisting solely of idiots with lasguns, is what I'm trying to say. The big thing in your strategy here is the orbital superiority and bombardment, and then fucking with the enemy to stop them interfering in the Guard operations. Scions can do the latter, Navy can do the former, there doesn't seem to be anything here you really need Space Marines for.

I'm not arguing that a combined Imperial invasion of a planet like that wouldn't be able to do it eventually (with GW's trademark invisible Heavy Casualties, but the Admech aren't allowed to win things so no surprise there.

>Cont.

>>53802162
I'm arguing that Marines are overkill for small battles and unnecessary for the most part for larger ones, since other people can do their jobs in any given moment well and they couldn't hope to succeed against any opponent of any real scale without a couple dozen Chapters at least. They're exceedingly good at one kind of battle, the medium-scale planetary rebellion with poor troops and easily disabled infrastructure, comms and command, as well as no mobile or abundant means of putting down Marines that would greatly restrict their raiding value.

Couple that with their extreme expense, and I would think that Marines would be primarily useful to the Imperium as a propaganda and enforcement force, solving all those problems that would be a largely unproductive faff for Guard and such.

The thing I'm annoyed about is that some try to argue they're the be-all end-all of warfare and can own anything on their own, and then the writers continue to write in get-outs and fiat to maintain this. It's approaching Starfist levels of special forces wank, except this time it's "decapitation strikes with MUHREENS will kill everything ever and nobody will ever be prepared to handle that and cause the Marines to overrreach themselves" after they realize there's no way the Marines can win an open war alone from sheer scale, rather than "Light infantry with decent anti-tank portable weapons will kill everything ever and nobody will ever find a way to handle them".

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>>53802157
>a man lives for 10k years
Not too unusual for Admech, they will insist on doing that with all those augments. Personally I like the idea he's a clone lineage, but check out http://www.the-conclave.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=1953.0 - these all showed up in canon somewhere, or in the FFG books (yes, I know, questionable canon.) They have a lot of ways to achieve immortality. I like the idea he's a gestalt mind like Galatea personally, just united, to explain his capabilities in a billion different fields.

>>53798238
The guard and the humans are the real heroes imo.

>>53802316
Well, most of ot fanwank and GW needing to sell miniatures, and since Soace Marines are easily recognisable and basically the face of the company at this point, they sorta must kick every ass imaginable.
Forgeworld does a better job at describing and explaining imperial warzones from what I've heard though.

>>53798226
agreed

>>53798003
But most CSM are either insane retards or biologically mutated psuedo-marines that were just decent cultists who had corrupted geneseed shoved up their asses.
Loyalists marines are outnumbered, but they're better.

>>53802447
They do. Istvaan V was an awesome battle, they give stuff like Titans proper respect, the Vraks campaigns were really well written, etcetera. It's why at the moment I prefer 30k to 40k, although 8e looks pretty nice for pickup games.

>>53800277
>I want to read a story about Marines trying that kind of thing on a proper military target world

Emperor's warbringers did that on a hive world. They infiltrated scouts through commercial cargos, planted charges to disable power and create havoc, teleported terminators to destroy armored and air forces before they could muster and kill the command structure, then used air superiority to control the main avenues. Only then they deployed the rest of their force and did the rest of their job, which was destroying a relic and not holding ground.

>and getting utterly owned after their oneshot decapitation strike doesn't work.

That happened to the avenging sons on Taros

>>53800514
Exactly my point. The numbers you read are all combat personnel, the logistics come from the munitorum, which is always unaccounted for, and the navy brings a terrific force multiplier that involves tens of thousands of men per ship.

>>53802316
I agree with you as a standalone force. I have always however viewed any major conflict as being a combined effort with marines acting as special forces+ that also does not tax your logistics. Their cost is ephemeral. They are virtually autonomous with their own forges, munitions, medical, voidships, recruitment, and training. Having them show up to assist in a major war zone frees up your specialized units for other tasks and they function as an effective force multiplier within their expertise.
And their expertise are:
1 Boarding actions

2 Orbital assaults

3 Manouver warfare

Nothing really more than that. All of their equipment including their starships are designed around this.

I don't think you and I are really disagreeing on much. I don't see a single chapter ever taking on something like a forgeworld or any kind of fortified planet without a lot of outside help.

It is a known fact GW and BL do not understand two digit numbers.
Hell two digit numbers are hard for them.

>>53797855
To be fair, this is Mars. Most of it is the tech equivalent of an underhive mixed with a daemon world mixed with a nid digestive pool.

>>53797855

Anyone still got the link to the mega file? I lost mine.

>>53805114
There are as many X as the plot demands. All numbers are arbitrary, they've said this before

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>>53798968
This is why I'm picking Astral Knights for my Primaris, bring a chapter back from the dead in a manner of speaking. Gona put them on necron style bases and cover then in chains, tabards and purity seals BT style. Its gona be tight.

It does suck though for existing chapters that wouldn't have then for fluff purposes but I'm generally ok with numarines. With half the Imperium cut off, Cadia gone and the orks itching for a big scrap it makes sense to throw the loyalists some kind of bone.

I can easily add them to my admech army too, they can be assigned to ensure that the Primaris are functioning within acceptable parameters.

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Proceeding to post a short comic about what marines are like to the average citizen.

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>>53807917

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>>53807937

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>>53807917
>what are space nazi templars are to citizens
fix.

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>>53807948

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>>53807955
How's that 1000-marine limit going for you, battle-brother?

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>>53807983
Our primarch made new companies beyond the limit, and sorry your faith doesn't allow you to tap eldar ass.

>>53800595
If you won in space, why land?
Orbital bombardment would be easier and more efficient.

>>53798192
>using 40k wiki

I don't disagree with you, but 40k wiki is SHIT. Use Lexicanum

>>53797855
Don't forget, he also started production using traitor seed, but Gulliman refused him the authority to release them, stating his worry right after that Cawl would just do it anyway.

>>53797855
Reminder that if this guy makes one wrong move the mechanius is going to be in open civil war

>>53808454
Reminder that if that actually happens, Cawl is gonna BTFO those conservative faggots

>>53810442
Cawl is powerful but him against every magos who hates his ass is going to result in Cawl being swamped and taken down after inflicting massive casualties on his enemies.

>>53800523
>not "Gretchin-bitz, grot."

Missed the trick there, lad.

Why would you trust any 'lore' numbers in the 40k universe anyway? They cant even agree on what day it is anymore without collapsing into accusing each other of heresy!

>Chronostrife of Terra
>“During the Great Crusade and the Heresy, the standard dating system had provided some idea of the order of events over time, but like everything else the Emperor had created, the calendar had become degraded by both dogmatic adherence and thoughtless revisionism. Various rival dating systems had evolved from the Imperial Standard, making a true chronicle of the galaxy almost impossible to construct. By the five main factional variants, Guilliman calculated the current year to be anywhere between early M41 and a millennium later, and that was leaving out the numerous lesser, more heretical interpretations.”

>Guillaman is sad

>>53812219
>The Imperium cant even make a calendar without devolving into brutal civil war
This is why I enjoy 40k.

Reminder that both flavours of Eldar and the Necrons are sitting on massive piles of doomsday weapons that they don't like using for various reasons and when the Imperium escalates things and goes on the offensive they'll pull out the fancy toys.

>>53812219
that doesn't count, they just said that to avoid changing the name to 41k

>>53800664
>sharing secrets the emperor trusted you and you alone with
i wish an inquisitor would read this and have you REDACTED.

>>53798579
It's 1.4 million personnel in the combined U.S armed forces. That includes office clerks, therapists, doctors, janitors, various legal personnel and just about any other job you can imagine. Personnel in actual combat at any one time is, at maximum, 1% of that 1.4 million. You stupid asshole.

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>>53798003
>>53798128
homeboy you pulling shit out of your ass, stop being GW's jilted ex wife and get over it. your vainglorious attempts to shit over peoples fun who enjoy the lore are as pathetic as they are idiotic. Find a better hobby than hating what others like.

>>53798050
The Dark Angels THEMSELVES are 'codex compliant' but all the chapter masters still answer to Azrael. The DA were in 1000 man chapters with chapter masters before the codex astartes even happend, so they just said 'fuck it, we'll play along' but if Azrael pushes the button, they all turn up in green, ivory and black clad to kick more ass than god and look savage as fuck doing it.

>>53810783
He's had 10k years to prepare for shit like that. For all we know "Cawl" is just a doombot and the real Cawl is hidden away where no one can find him. He's probably about to pull a Rickshank redemption on those magos and BTFO them before they even realize they've been played

>>53813132
You dont seem to understand anon. Cawl has had 10k years to prepare his doomsday bunker, but he will be going up against other archmagos who have had centuries, if not thousands of years themselves, to build their own armies and doomsday bunkers.

Cawl would lose. He would kill plenty of his enemies but he would still lose. Nobody is on his side, even Guilliman would cut him loose if he became too much of a burden.

Are there ANY chapters that refused the Primaris? I would be interested in a themed chapter that has its advantages and disadvantages to sticking to the "old ways" maybe more veteran options and relic gear? Whereas the primaris chapters have the buff marines and new shiny tech.

>>53797855
>primarines were created 10,000 years ago and everyone just sat on them because Girlyman didn't tell them what to do with them

>>53814840

Everyone is autistic in 40k

The Mechanicus, especially a domus are Autistic Prime

>>53797908
Not BEEP BOOP.

You had ONE job, anon.

>>53814815
RG begrudgingly let them in while being all "not muh" so that's something.

Don't think anybody outright rejected them in canon though.

>>53797855
I want more Admech characters after Cawl. He was the best character in Gathering Storm by far.

Theres got to be other mad scientists hiding on some random forge world doing just a crazy shit. Gib plz.

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>>53815289
But Cawl isnt Makoto?

>>53797855
The space ships do basically all of the work as far as conquering most planets goes.

Yeah, there's only a thousand of them, but that doesn't really matter when they can just blow shit up from orbit in a battle barge and send in the Guard to squat in the rubble after they're done.

If a planet has orbital defenses, then they do the whole deep strike decapitation assault, knock them out, and THEN fuck off back to the battle barge to deliver ordnance from space.

The fact that the Guard might very well spend the next century fighting holdouts of resistance and trying to rebuild after the Marines blew shit up in five minutes doesn't really get touched upon because Codices are about puffing up the faction.

"And so the First Company led a surgical assault on the planet''s capital, slaying the corrupt planetary governor and retaking the system in a single day"

Sounds better than

"Ten Terminators teleported directly into the governor's mansion, shot him in the bathtub and slaughtered every member of his household guard, torched the building to the ground and then planted meltabombs on every key piece of infrastructure before congratulating themselves on a job well done. Seventy million civilians died in the resulting civil war as Imperial forces retook control."

>>53797855
Some martians probably have worse things in their garages.
Like, the Emperor's radiant 15ft cock or something.

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The problem with the numbers you idiots fail to understand is those numbers are concerning marines. Even in the pre-heresy era legions were supported by the imperial army, titan legions , massive ordinatus and so on ,on the ground and massive fleets on the void. Marines are only the shock troopers.
When chaos launches a black crusade it is not a rush of chaos marines on the surface. Chaos forces are made up of chaos cultists, renegades , mutants andin the late stages of the incursion if the warp gods willing daemons and so on. Chaos marines are the officer class of that army.

In short 30k chaos marines could not conquer a system let alone a backwater imperial world.
With the backing of the afformentioned support they have a good chance of doing so.

>>53798245
>my over-inflated Huron number is based on my over-inflated Abaddon number

>>53802162
>>53802316
>typing this much about how a FW couldn't be conquered by a Chapter, let alone a Company
Space Marine fans still aren't as stupid as the people who constantly complain about their depiction, since noone would argue that a Company could conquer a fucking Forge World.

But the "average civilized world" wouldn't be hard. As others have gone on to point out here, and how easily they'd be able to set the US and other major nations into complete chaos, with some pin-point strikes.

>>53816542
>muh pin point stikes

And the world you are attacking is filled with compelte imbeciles who dont know when to retreat into secret bunkers inside their own world.
Also i am sure peopel that rebelled against the imperium etc will just drop arms and surrender when the leader of the rebellion is dead.

If it is a hive world good like conquering it even with fleet superiority because of the void shields and anti ship systems.

>>53816196
You dont know about or understand this setting at all.

>>53814840

Not everyone. Only Cawl knew about them and kept them hidden for 10k years. No one asked

>>53813203
>tfw I wouldn't be surprised if, at the end of 8th, Cawl is about to be BTFO by what remains of his enemies, and as a last fuck you he does some techno-magic bullshit that wakes up the Void Dragon, setting up the new big bad for 9th.

>>53798003
Armageddon has local population of 100 billion, and that's a planet covered 50% in orks. Meanwhile you have planet wide campaigns with fewer casualties than the Somme, Stalingrad or the Iran-Iraq war.

>>53817533
That still means he created primaris marines 10.000 years ago. So what did he do with the rest of the time? He sure as shit wasn't trying to create primaris marines, if he already did them 10.000 ago.

>>53812248
I want to see a World Engine fight a Blackstone Fortress, is that so wrong?

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>>53818910
Still taking his time to perfect the beat.

>>53818957
I dunno, it took one marine barge and some marines to take down a world engine. Would think a backstone fortress pumps more than equivalent amount of firepower. Unless it's an unactivated one, that could even the odds.

>>53800347
I'm getting pretty tired of the local redshirt trying to sell me on primaris marines for my 13th company SW army. No fucking way they'd just accept a bunch of nuniggers

>>53816844
I read more books and soruce material than the number of your poster boy space marines you bought with daddies lunch money . I understand the setting that was meant to be completely.

>>53821094
Calm yourself manchild. Dick waving achieves nothing

>>53817533
>noone asked
This is amusing to me because what if someone did.

>High Lord- Man if only someone had a few gorillion Spess Marines stored we could use for [catastrophe of the week]
>Cawl- Yea if only.

>>53797855
>This dude had a LEGION of space marines, the most powerful concentration of imperial power and he had it hidden in his martian garage for the last 10,000 years and no one noticed anything?

Cawl is an archmagos with a project issued personally by a primarch, the literal son of the Emperor. It's not a question of him being sneaky-sneaky and no one noticing, he operates a forge for top secret projects perfectly openly and no one tries to catch him because he has carte blanche from one of the 10 most important people in the Imperium, arguably surpassing even the high lords.

You don't fuck with another archmagos' forge, you don't fuck with a project sponsored by a primarch and anyone that did find out would either be killed or sworn to secrecy. Even if an Inquisitor found out Cawl would just have to say he was operating under direct orders from Roboute Guilliman and the Inquisitor would be sworn to silence or even just back right the fuck off when they realised it was all above board. He's not sneaking around scavenging parts for an unsanctioned personal project, his project is officially backed by everyone's bosses.

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>>53823220
>Tfw you have both the "following boss' orders" and "muh 10000 years" to do whatever the fuck you want.
>Tfw you may or may not be also tampering with traitor-legion geneseed despite you boss saying no.

>>53823540
This is basically why he managed to BTFO most of the rest of the AdMech; immunity from political bullshit and ten thousand years to work on a single project; make better space marines.

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Can anyone give me a quick rundown of everything Cawl has done? He made the armour that revive(s)d Guilliman, made better space marines (alongside the usual complements like armour, weapons, dreadnought, etc.), became the first to mass produce grav vehicles heavier than a speeder, made an AI-warpbound secretary-clone... I think he was trying to make additional pylons?

>>53812290
>>53812236
It's such a fun and clever way to do it though.

The reason we were at 999.M41 for so long and why some stuff doesn't make sense is that the date is fucked by +-500 years.

>>53797855
>new tech
GUYS 40K IS ABOUT DARK AGES NO NEW TECH
>old tech that was hidden
GUYS THIS IS PULLING IT OUT OF NOWHERE

>>53823666
Honestly, the main reason any of that makes sense is that Cawl is a crazy 10000 year old heretek.

The AdMech has debates for centuries on if it's OK to put assault cannons in a predator turret or not, even though they fit. Cawl just goes and puts some grav plates under a razorback, realizes it doesn't float, puts more on--- until it works. Or he added an extra 6 inches on the end of a bolter.

Not that crazy, really. But it'd make more sense if he had a small cult of followers.

>>53824022
Yeah GW is lazy no matter what they do. When they find old tech, its just finding cool new models under the bed to fight baddies, when they develop new ones GW pull Big G out of their ass who pulls Cawl out of his ass who pulls Primaris marines out of his ass.

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>>53823666

>>53826494
Thank you, man. It took too long, srsly.

>>53800595
Why have marines when the navy exists then?

>>53815568

How does she respond to Beep Boop?

>>53828144
Gets all cute and flustered.

>>53797855
Yeah...Cawl is the new imperial mcguffin. If story needs something Cawl will just shit it out. I honestly hope he is actually Alpharius/shard of void dragon/cegorrah etc. to actually justify the stuff he pulls off. He's way more capable and productive than the rest of the ad-mech put together.

>>53828770
I want him to be like that hive mind robot bathtub ai thing in priests of mars. That thing was fucking creepy.

Inner forges of adepts were basically sacrosanct.
The bigger question is how did he avoid it getting taken over and found by the Dark Mechanicum?

>>53818910
Do we actually specify somewhere that he had these guys on ice for 10,000 years? I thought he just had the means to mass-produce them.

>>53800827
>How the fuck can 1000 dudes stop 1 million tyranids coming at them?

They don't ... ? Why would SM sit on their asses while tyrannids come at them ? The SM's drop on the big nids, frag them and the small ones then scatter away, and that's the guard's job to deal with then.

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>>53800827
>For one thing 1000 dudes will never be able to carry enough ammo to stem a tyranid hivefleet.
You have a combat blade, don't you? :^)

>>53798192
>traitor chapters obey the 1000 marine codex limit like good boys

I know I'm late to this party, but what the fuck are Primaris Marines?

>>53834103
new breed of marine, built by one of the highest ranking AdMech dudes, Archamagos Cawl. They're bigger, tougher and better geared than the normal ones - at the expense of some degree of tactical flexibility (the few units for them we've seen only have one loadout, and no variance in numbers).

I haven't actually got a straight answer as to whether you can upgrade existing marines to Primaris, but a good portion of them at least were made by Cawl, possibly grown in vats. At guilliman's orders they're being distributed to replace losses in the chapters whose geneseed they carry.

>>53834148
Ok, thanks.

But that strikes me as incredibly stupid. Isn't the biggest benefit of Space Marines to be a possible answer to every situation?

>>53831178
>The Monolith! We destroy that and it's over!

>>53834148
Regular Marines can be upgrade to Primaris Marines. They just have 3 more organs, and are otherwise pretty much like regular Marines, although with better gear for regular Joeus SpaceMarineus.

>>53808053
>Being proud of letting Xenos Witches into a position where they can inevitably betray you and cause immense damage

>>53798113
>Most regular armies of today are lucky to account 40.000 and that's just to protect their slab of dirt. Even at full strength before the heresy with all 18 legions account for +/- 2.700.00 men that is not enough for a galactic army or even a feasible peace keeping force.

Space marines aren't meant to be an army or a peacekeeping force, those are the imperial guard and planetary defence forces respectively. Space marines are more analogous to expeditionary or spec-ops units depending on strength.

An army that's 40,000 men strong (just combat units, + extra for logistics etc), but an army with 40,000 just in spec ops / expeditionary (with a proportionately larger regular army / peacekeeping force and logistics, etc. force ) would be considerable.

>>53807963
>doesn't want space marines to come back even though they saved his shitty primitive world

Sounds like heresy to me

>>53818084
>IF I CAN'T WIN
>NOBODY CAN
>*Flips Switch*
>*Distant Dragon Noises*
>*Cawl screeches in binary and runs away*

>>53836046
>Destroy literally everything in the process of saving them and potentially leaving the region in perpetual disarray and poverty

It's the sorta the same way some civilians in the Middle East feel about the United States. They don't hate them but also don't want them to come back in force again.

>>53836228
Sounds like terrorism to me

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>>53836236
Exactly

>>53823220
>>53823590
>Cawl is an archmagos with a project issued personally by a primarch, the literal son of the Emperor. It's not a question of him being sneaky-sneaky and no one noticing, he operates a forge for top secret projects perfectly openly and no one tries to catch him because he has carte blanche from one of the 10 most important people in the Imperium, arguably surpassing even the high lords.
>durr hurr cawl is immune he was granted speshul authoritee from a comotose man hasn't wielded any political power for thousands of years
>of course there would never be anyone capable of finding out what he was using all those resources for over a span of thousands of years

>>53831178
The only thing that can stop me, Cato Sicarius, is a powerfisting by Marneus Calgar!

>>53834148
>I haven't actually got a straight answer as to whether you can upgrade existing marines to Primaris
Supposedly. They have three extra implanted organs, and the Dark Imperium novel explicitly states that all Chapters now have the full range of implants available to them for new marines, no more missing ones or deficient organs.

The problem is that the gene-lines are still slightly different, and exactly how they interact with their parent's gene-seed differs a bit. Guilliman calls out the Space Wolves and Blood Angels explicitly on having weird interactions. Cawl wants to erase them, but he says no, leave them as they are, it was the Emperor's intent and he's perverted it enough.

Of course, Cawl then points out that if it was the Emperor's intent he should TOTALLY get to make Primaris from Traitor gene seed, and Guilliman flatly says no (but thinks to himself that he doesn't at all trust Cawl to obey said order).