Warhammer 40,000 General /40kg/

Point values are all over the place and things are worse than 7th!

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>>53718107
>yfw the greatest warriors in the galaxy get bumfucked by a bunch of chumps who barely know how to fire their guns pressed into service as literal cannon fodder

>>53718122
If you play power level you don't have to worry about points.

So, are missile launchers as bad as they look? A worse Lascannon with an alternative firing mode that kills an average of one guardsman?

>>53718128
gommunist pls

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>>53718122
>>53718138
people actually think this way non-ironically

So between Mek Gunz and Ork Flyers, which is better to look toward as far as clearing hordes goes?

Hey guys, is their an 8th edition list builder yet that has orks?

>>53718163
Ork Flyers, because you can use them to snipe characters, and they have much higher damage output for their points.

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Everyone talks about ork assaults, but what about shooty armies?

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R8 my competitive list anons

I doubt you could beat it

Grey Knight Vanguard Detachment

-Grand Master Voldus, 190

-Paladin Ancient, 142
+Nemesis Falchion, 0

-Apothecary, 92
+Nemesis Warding Stave, 0

-Paladins, 275
+4 Nemesis Force Halberd, 0
+1 Daemon Hammer, 13

-Land Raider Crusader, 244
+Twin Assault Cannon, 35
+Hurricane Bolterx2, 8

Total, 999

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How shitty is it

venomthropes give pretty much everything walking on two legs more survivability

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>>53718167
yes its called a piece of fucking paper and a calculator

>>53718167
I made a quick thing for AS and AM

Since I doubt anyone will make something decent for those in short notice

>>53718207
/thread

>>53718207
I'm not able to write with my hands.

>>53718022
They exist. In fact, it's an entry on this extremely awesome Tech-priest generator someone pointed me to.

>Corpus Gloriosa: The Tech-Priest's body is a thing of aesthetic perfection, whether constructed with the devotion of a renowned artisan or gene-sculpted into a vision of corporeal perfection. Very useful for dealing with those outside the Cult Mechanicus, who set more store in appearances.

Some are more normal.
I mean, the Archmagos Genetor for my army is a horrible spiderlike abomination when he goes to war and the Secutarii Axiarch is covered in nerve sockets and Titanshard armour, but the Magos Reductor is basically a normal tall guy in a robe with a mechadendrite harness that locks into a single small pair of ports midway up the spine. He takes them off and dons normal clothes, he's somewhat handsome but forgettable. He commands the Mechanicum ships, so he doesn't fight much personally, and occasionally has to do some talking if the Archmagos got blown to bits again and needs to build a new body.

Same with the Titan Legion planetary liason in Titanicus, he's a standard dude but with a slight green flicker in his eyes as data is displayed to him.

>>53718138
If you play power level your games will be even more off and you won't be able to take fluffly chaos lists where your unit sizes reflect your god's magic number without leaving power you pay for out of your list.

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>>53718217
Make one in excel.

>>53718217
Use your mouth or toes instead then.

>>53718122
>things are worse than 7th!

Not really, its b8 I know but 7th ended up becoming Apocalypse with shit that just erased whole units and superheavies out the ass. Sure we still have superheavies out the ass but the new points system makes armies much smaller and the new AP system makes sure you're not erasing or denying whole units at a time while making the morale system actually mean something.

Armor saves actually matter even if the majority of units will have a 4+ or 6+ most of the time.

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>>53718207

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>>53718147
That's about twice the number of guardsmen a Lascannon kills.

>>53718207
/thread

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Can someone explain GSC to me? am i doing it wrong? had my first couple games with them today, and they seemed pretty weak. we played about 1250 pts, fought Guard and Tau

>Cult Ambush gimped as fuck, nothing arrives closer than 9
>Praying for a 5+ more than ever, on ONE dice you're fucked
>No return to the shadows, get a shit roll? fuck you.
>No healing units
>Abberants are paper thin now
>HQ's just awkwardly stand back at their unit charges in in front of them
>basically everything is praying for a 9 inch charge

Am i doing the reserves thing wrong? is it true i can only have half my force arrive via 'deep strike'? if so that fucks with existing armies, nothing but our vehicles want to deploy normally

Making us a 'you need formations to even play lol' and then taking all the bonuses given to us in 7th really pulled the rug out from under GSC. Is this the edition where you shelf these fuckers and play Nids instead?

Has the four-armed Emperor forsaken me

>>53718193
Grand Overtoaster, stop meming

>>53718268
You should buy 500 Conscripts.

>>53718268
Remember you can use a command point to reroll a dice so when you roll one shitty dice on your charge and one good one then use a point to reroll the shitty dice to make your charges. Other than that I have no idea. I don't play your army.

>>53718238

>the new points system makes armies much smaller
lmao

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>>53718207

>>53718159

Points values are a bit wonky, it's still miles ahead of 7th but I think '2 years of game testing' may be GW telling us some porkies.

>>53718297
I did use that, but fighting shooty armies still hurt, felt more painful than 7th ever did

Tau Overwatch is still brutal as hell, i'd argue more so feels like it was never this punishing. And getting a 5+ save versus pulse guns doesn't help much when a 5+ is worth jack shit on a 1 wound t3 model

>>53718255
Wow, and here I was exited to run my Steel Legion guys with Grenade Launchers and Missile Launchers.

>>53718268
Take a detachment of Nids or AM to shore up your weaknesses

And you won't get T1 charges like you used to, gonna have to let those go.

>>53718207
thankyou for restoring my faith in this community

>>53718357
Math, thou art a cruel bitch.

>>53718255
price per point (on the cheapest carrier) when

>>53718268
Have you tried running familiars for using Mass Hypnosis and Might from beyond?

>Always liked 40k
>Saw that 8th edition was coming out
>watched miniwargaming's battle report videos
>start researching what I want to play/buy
>Head to my local GW store, buy a start collecting box and paints
>Head home, super excited
>Open the box
>Spend 6 hours assembling one infantry unit, joy slowly draining from me
>Try to paint using the techniques I saw in all the youtube guides
>looks terrible, took forever, only one painted so far
The 2k point list i'm trying to work towards would require like months and months of work just to get assembled + painted. I love the 40k fluff, strategic elements of picking an army, faction variety, gameplay, and mathhammer stuff but holy fuck do I now realize I hate assembling/painting. I'm honestly considering just going through one of the companies that will assemble/paint for you. Do you all love to assemble + paint? Does anyone else hate/merely tolerate it because they just like the game itself?

>>53718410
Assembling and painting is my favorite part of the hobby.

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>>53718207
>going through old army books one day
>find lists more than a decade old on lined paper

>>53718389
Truely.

And GW not giving you a full lasgun team.


At least the MBT Russ looks playable.

>>53718354
Don't you guys have those kickass not-lascannons? Couldn't you provide you guys cover fire that way? Could you take a tyranid allied patrol that focuses on shooting and has a mawloc? I know I'm throwing shit out there, but I play Eldar, Necrons, and Blood Angels. I got nothing except I'm hoping to lay in some serious shooting with my tanks and twin autocannon dread so the overwatch doesn't hurt as much. Also I'm thinking that just becasue I can "first turn deep strike and charge" doesn't mean I always should. Maybe you shouldn't either.

>>53718268
Use vehicles, take advantage of the scout sentinels absurd threat range turn 1, dpnt be afraid to plant neophytes with mining lasers and grenade launchers either in a truck or a truck for some decent shooting. I've had good results so far, my chimaeras took a surprising amount if punishment, and pairs of mining lasers do good work.

>>53718420
Yeah i'm not trashing people who like that aspect of it, it's just not me. I have more fun making metrics in excel than I do assembling/painting stuff.

>>53718435
Force multipliers turn Russes from mediocre and tanky into destroyers of innocence.

>>53718217
Christy Brown plays 40k?

>Philosophy – Roll 1d100
01-20 Ultra-Orthodox: The Tech-Priest is a fanatical adherent to the 16 Universal Laws of the Omnissiah and treats Adeptus Mechanicus Dogma as inerrant and unbreakable. Such an individual would never even study an item of xenos technology or the plans for an A.I., much less build or operate one.
21-50 Orthodox: The Tech-Priest abides rigidly by the 16 Universal Laws and expresses proper disdain for the workings of xenos and the abomination of thinking machines, but may not entirely agree with some less central doctrines and prohibitions.
51-70 Moderate: The Tech-Priest abides by the 16 Universal Laws, and may reject some minor or particularly obstructive dogmas of the Cult Mechanicus. While they would never dabble in xenos technology or AI, they may study such things in order to better learn to combat them.
71-90 Heterodox: The Tech-Priest's beliefs and practises differ from the norms of the Cult Mechanicus, to the point where they may reject such core tenets as the abomination of alien technology. However, if their experiments are non-disruptive or even beneficial, all but very Orthodox Tech-Priests are liable to give the benefit of the doubt... for a while, at least.
91-100 Heretical: The Tech-Priest rejects Mechanicus dogma to the point where they may reject one or more of the 16 Universal Laws. They may frequently dabble in alien technology, AI, reanimation of the dead, Daemonic technology, or they may embrace evil philosophies such as Progress and Innovation.

Gee I wonder where Cawl fits....

>>53718268
>Cult Ambush gimped as fuck, nothing arrives closer than 9
Not really. A 6 let's you fully move, so the charge is pretty much guaranteed. 5 gets you a D6 move which usually is enough to get you the charge. The average of 3d6 is 10.5. you need to MSU them ro a certain degree to get enough 5+ results. Also don't forget that Primus and your command point re-roll.

You have unquestioning loyalty, you can afford to be a lot more aggressive with your character positioning. Why are you holding your characters at the back?

>>53718255
Would you mind sharing that file?

>>53718420
Playing > assembling > painting for me. I suspect he is in the same boat. I didn't really like modeling at all until I started kit bashing cool blood angels with jump packs for shit like captains, librarians, chaplains, command squads (RIP) and so on.

>>53718368
Man i hate doing that. never liked allies and i didn't like the 'crutch' of needing my GSC to have a shot at winning with my Tyranids, so i went full Stealer cult

Well, any idea what Tyranid units help stealers in 8th? i guess a Mawloc or Trygon would be nice
>>53718443
>>53718452
I am lacking on mining lasers, i might get the Goliath truck with the heavy laser, it's a nice model

So when selling off an army would you prefer to split it up into sensible bits (individual units or at least similar units) or just keep it all bundled together?

I'm looking at selling off my Tau and before you jump me this is an army I started when the blue slot-heads first released. I don't even own a riptide or stormsurge. They're mostly unpainted as my focus always remained with my Chaos minis and it seems silly to keep them when they've been sitting around in boxes for so long. I like their look, but I know I'm never going to get around to them.

>>53718354
Overwatch is pretty much objectively worse.

Also, hypnosis buddy. And Neophyte Flamer Shotgun Squads. Drop in 9", advance, and light em up.

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Got my $35 Voidraven in today. She's mostly looking pretty good. There's a quick spray coat on it (which makes me want to drop the dosh on an airgun fuck), though the underside is still white. Unfortunately, the guy didn't file down the sprue connections before painting, so I gotta do that and hope I can match the color. Seriously, who owns an airgun and doesn't smooth out the edges before painting? On that note, he also so rested the canopy, so I gotta decide how to handle that.

All the weapons are magnetized including the bomb. Unfortunately, this dude couldn't into magnets. They're not straight. Hell, they're not even drilled, though that makes fixing them that much easier.

All in all, not bad for $35.

>>53718473
I'd bet on 101+.

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>>53718410
>Spend 6 hours assembling one infantry unit, joy slowly draining from me
I wanna ask how but I don't wanna know.
>Try to paint using the techniques I saw in all the youtube guides
>looks terrible, took forever, only one painted so far
Your first mini is ALWAYS going to look like shit. You'll improve over time. Even Duncan's first mini looked fucking awful. Pic very related.

>>53718459
No if only find the damn MBT bit so I could switch it out with the Vanquisher bit I have on now. Until Forge World makes them good again.

Can Russes still be okay without sponsons?

>>53718420
The only part of the hobby I engage in is theorycrafting because I've got two unassembled partially painted models and ton of paints, brushers, and sprues.

>>53718468
I've got dysgraphea.

>>53718452
Do chimeras still work well in 8th? I've been hesitant about including them.

>>53718502
You can't move or advance after most deep strikes. Is that a GSC thing?

>>53718479
I only got one 6 and my abberents were blown apart by Tau fire. He had a stack of Fire-warriors and 2 broadsides all near each other
>>53718502
Can you advance after setting up via ambush? i thought it ate all movement. Or do you just mean get into position for the next turn?

>>53718492
Take stealers. Nid stealers are identical to Purestrains but cost 8 points les per model.

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I've been out of the loop for a bit and have a couple of questions that have probably been answered a dozen times before, but could someone tell me exactly how flying has changed from 7th and how the Swarmlord's ability works? I'm trying to get back into Tyranids, but don't know if I should be using a flyrant anymore.

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>>53718128
>Yfw da stoopidist panzees get krumped by some right 'uge Boyz
Git Green'd ya gitz.

>>53718410
When I first started playing I was eager to get onto the tabletop so I assembled and painted terribly creating a complete mess of an army. Now, years later, I'm getting back into it for 8th like you are but I'm focusing more on the hobby side of it. There's nothing wrong with not enjoying the hands on side of things, but it's good to make a good go at it now as you might change your mind later in the hobby.

I spent 5 hours painting one Space Marine today.

>>53718163
Neither? Big Gunz, I take 6 Lobbas, 6d6 S5 hits is pretty alright.

>>53718207
This reminds me of a story at our last tournament.

>tourney rules quite clearly state you must either write-out or print-out your army list
>10 year old, owns two smart phones, ipad
>puts his three Dreadknight GK army on board
>tournament is only 2k yet has 3 Dreadknights
>his first match is me
>im suspicious
>hey can i see your list
>LOL NO FAGGOT
>actually shouted faggot loudly
>slurps his large coke from mcdonalds
>do rough maths in head
>call over staff member
>wont let me see his list
>kid slurps his coke, dribbles it down chubby little chin
>staff member: boris wheres your army list
>giggles
>boris wheres your army list i need to see it
>staff member obviously just did the math in his head too
>kid suddenly gets really huffy and puffs his massive fatty dicksucking lips out
>HMMMMMMMMMNNNGH ARE YOU CALLING ME A CHEATER
>screeches the word cheater so loud half the room flinches
>staff member tells him he either needs to show him his army list or get disqualified
>kid stamps his feet and screeches, drops his coke and spills it everywhere
>staff member looks dead inside
>finally kid gets over his tard rage when he's threatened to get kicked out of the shop for the hundredth time
>pulls his disgusting looking ipad (its a white one and yet it looks almost brown its so covered in stains and shit
>it wont even turn on
>kid slaps the fucking thing with his sticky coke-covered chubby little hands like a fucking mongoloid
>drags his sticky palm down it after he fucking licked it
>ipad unlocks
>spends a good three and a half minutes looking for his army list on ipad
>finally finds it

>>53718224

I think Arkhan Land had that going on, even had the whole "the Emperor is perfect and not a machine-man, so I can be too" line

>>53718357
Missile Launchers are ok. Grenade Launchers? Not so much.

>>53718354
Don't forget Mass Hypnosis

is it just me or are inceptor squads bad?

>>53718528
They are much tankier and are better at transporting from pint a to point b with the new rules, but they lost their utility of being able to fire special weapons out of the hatch. As had that wasn't really a bug issue, I use them as cover and fire support, but goliath are objectively better in every way

>>53718480
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/16rftxw95qq06tk/AABCXAE3BVNls3GJaCpX_Kdaa?dl=0

>>53718410
>6 hours
Im in the same boat as you but the first unit I put together took less than an hour and thats including unboxing everything kicking my cat away like 3 times and having the worlds shakiest hands.

Do you have parkinsons?

>>53718604
What was on the list?

>>53718550
Both. Obviously if you roll a 5+ then they can roast immediately, but if not then stay flexible. A flamer/shotgun squad is 69 points, ld8. They'll survive most battleshock tests and they're not enough to waste a huge amount of firepower on.

>>53718571
that ork is gonna run out of dakka after firing for like, 3 seconds.

>>53718604
>its built using a list-building app
>except he opened it in gallery and it's obviously been painted over using his ipad's paint app
>points values are obviously fucking written over using the spraypaint tool i shit you not
>holds it up as if its the fucking glove in the OJ case
>if the points all fit you must acquit
>staff member has thousand mile stare at this point
>hands him the ipad and tells him to get the fuck out
>kid flips the table in tard rage
>staff member calls police
>kid goes on a rampage around the store screeching, two guys hold him down
>he shits himself
>police arrive and tell the guys they have to get off him or theyll be arrested
>as soon as they get up he grabs a cleaning knife off of the table and tries to stab one of them
>police tackle the kid to the fucking floor
>screeching and shitting
>they try to get the knife out of his hands and he winds up cutting his own finger
>starts screaming as if hes being killed
>screams the police stabbed him
>screams we tried to kill him
>his mum shows up
>his mum is so fat she has to come in the door sideways
>she asks whats going on and sees her son on the floor under police covered in shit
>mum attacks the police
>police have to arrest mother
>they physically cant get her out of the door with her hands behind her back, she doesn't fucking fit
>kid keeps kicking everything and the entire fucking shop reeks of shit

That's the image I associate with the kind of people who are so lazy they can't do basic math and lift a pencil and have to use list building programs.

>>53718610
except grenade launchers are 5 points and assault.
and while heavy bolters are probably better for the points, their availability is different.

>>53718410

I hate assembling. So, so, so damn much. I enjoy painting but it's kind of a take or leave for me. I kind of learned to enjoy it I guess.

Give it another unit or two, don't stress out about perfection, and spend a lot of time painting at the game store where you can hang out with people and chat while you work. Or go to a company to do it for you, people would prefer that over an unpainted army.

>>53718604
>>53718657
Cool story bro

>>53718654
>Not firing all of your Dakka to then beat someone with the gun
MUCKIN' ABOUT

>Theres no way to take rifleman Helbrutes

I get that the point was probably to make Brutes more of a close support/melee unit compared to conventional dreads, but the fact that Reaper autocannons still suffer that penalty to hit while having shorter range than loyalists just sucks.

I'm surprised by how efficiently Knights can deal with hordes, with Titanic Feet. Sadly less useful against MSU light infantry. Has anyone tried a full Knight list in 8e yet? I remember seeing one or two thrown around earlier.

>>53718645
Thanks. I love cute spreadsheets.

>>53718657
We had as aspie who had unlimited NEET bucks that spent them all at the shop but never primed anything he painted enough for them to be anything other than brush streak covered shit fests. He would sperg out to himself in the corner and take huge smelly shits in the bathroom the kind GW store operator let us use because we were bros. He would beg us to play him to keep him occupied. It was torture.

>>53718648
Something along the lines of (it was hard to actually read the screen and also years ago).

Draigo
Grand Master
3 Dreadknights
10 Paladins
4 Strike Squads
Plus a few other things? It wasn't ridiculously over, but it was also obviously more than 2k and he somehow thought he'd get away with it.

ahahaha this retard ordered a bunch of recasted shit for Tzeentch daemons and is selling it off now it is no longer op.

http://www.trademe.co.nz/a.aspx?id=1344969676

>>53718550
That would be a problem. Though 5 and 6 are usually good enough, and a 4 has a chance. And remember that if he "Greater Goods" at a target the helping units cannot overwatch again at ALL that turn. Basically you need several targets to get close if he castles up like that, then you want to mass hypnosis the most dangerous unit.

>>53718492
I prefer the flamer over the laser on the truck, the laser only comes on the rockgrinder, and you're gonna want to get that as close as possible to use the drill, which makes the flamer more consistently useful since you can advance and use it reliably. Tryon offers you little since it only brings out hivefleet infantry units, not GSC units. I'd bring a mawloc or some kind of heavy dakka support like an exocrine or a tyrannofex. You could also bring zoanthropws for smite support or the ability to make your units advance and charge, or get the new fnp. Then there's deathleaper for character sniping... lots if options to choose from

>>53718692
Yeah well your butcher autocannon gets 8 shots to our 4 for exterminator autocannon.

>>53718534
On a 6 you move as normal, on a 5 you get an extra round of shooting or move d6 inches, your choice.

So basically now that HWS are cheap, you can afford to specialise into HB and LC, making autocannon squads not as good right?

>>53718762
You guys don't have to rely on that do you? I hate fishing for sixes. Is there some way to modify the roll?

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So in 8th edition, are the Triarch Praetorians worth taking? They're expensive as fuck, but love their fluff and have wanted to run the space skellington police since 5th

>>53718770
Yes. LC in Infantry Squads. HB(or mortars) in HW Squads.

>>53718770
Autocannons still have their preferred targets, so it's not like there's no reason to take them.

does anyone have the link to that Google drive page of anon calculating tau's ability to hit?

>>53718770
Autocannons are just kinda bad period. Not enough damage to deal with big stuff, not enough shots to deal with little stuff, and not enough AP to reliably threaten either.

>>53718550
For things like tau you need to either absorb overwatch with your transports or abuse the shit out of mass hypnosis. Softening up things with shooting certainly doesn't hurt either, don't underestimate how effective a unit of 20 neophytes can be in shooting

>>53718797
You can get rerolls from the primus.

>>53718797
But anon randomness is FUN!

More random rules more fun! Less reliable things make the game more cinematic!

>>53718809
It's the bottom link of the OP, and it has several other factions. I'm actively working on it.

>>53718830
Danke, I didnt see it

So I've got my Eldar/Dark Eldar/Harlequins up and running for 8th but I'm trying to decide on a new army project for 8th.

Right now I'm thinking about possibly Grey Knights or AdMech.

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>>53718657

Fucking hell anon. Why the fuck did the kid shit himself? Hope in his table flipping rampage he didn't break your models.

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>>53718107
why do they give fists exemplar so much attention in art instead of actually cool chapters? soul dinkers were a lot cooler and looked better until they went full retard

>>53718193
What's the point of the paladin ancient?

you're paying 140pts for a +1 attack aura when you could have taken a 2nd apothecary instead and healed more units a turn and still had points left over.

>>53718770
>>53718808
Autocannons are like plasma if plasma was long range, expensive, and bad.

>>53718804
I'm kinda on the fence about them. They don't seem to have a target they're really effective against.

>>53718841
Luckily I play Orks, our models are robust :^)

In all seriousness it took a few days to get the kans back together, they were all metal back then.

>>53718808
Autocannons are bad. If you want something that's good against light vehicles and infantry you're better off with a missile launcher. See >>53718255

>>53718828
Reliable CA is pure cancer. And even 1 and 2 on the CA table isn't too horrible.

>>53718797
Prius grants a free reroll to the unit he comes in with. Results 3 and 4 are basically the old infiltrate. Thanks to new transport rules and increased durability we don't need it as much now. Crazy move speed on stealers and access to advance and charge rules help a great deal too, its not as bad as you might think.

>>53718871
You mean the more expensive gun is better? imagine that.

>>53718846
With 8 dudes and a Land Raider, you'd need all the attacks you can get, m8.

>>53718882
CA? Cock Assault?

>>53718770
With how cheap they are I'm going to use all the bits in the box. A couple extra bases and you've got one of each heavy weapon choice.

>>53718701

>I'm surprised by how efficiently Knights can deal with hordes, with Titanic Feet.

lmao
knights get raped by hordes

>>53718908
Cult Ambush

Do named characters already have the cost of wargear in the points cost? I'm searching for named wargear's cost and I couldnt find it.

If this is yes, does it include all wargear (named and generic stuff, such as a bolt pistol?)

>>53718602

I thought Lobbas were technically Mek Gunz too?

>>53718817
Mmh, i might invest in a box of the official cultists and go for the shotgun / flame unit. that sounds cool as hell and cheap too

>>53718870

Ooh I remmember them, broke one and could never get the stubby little legs to glue back on.

Story gave me a good laugh. Hope 8th brings the orkoids back on form. Not played since .... Well around the time kanns were metal

>>53718843
Better question, why does Chaos get so little art in which it isn't getting it's ass kicked by Imperials?

>>53718917
Some do, some don't.

>>53718902
With 8 dudes and a land raider you're only going to get so many models into combat with you a turn.

You're going to want to keep as many wounds and models as possible.

Now that apothecary can straight up fucking resurrect models in addition to guaranteed wound regen they're fucking amazing.

>>53718911

Thats why you have troops.

>>53718917
Yes. They're always listed in a separate section they that sectioned says they include their wargear.

>>53718923
They separated them out again. Big gunz have less of a gunner tax.

>>53718836
Np, glad that it's getting some use

>>53718940
Which also get raped by hordes.

>>53718410
Almost everyone feels that way at first anon. Everyone's first mini is always shit. But if you persevere you'll get better, and there's nothing quite as satisfying as laying out any army of beautifully-painted models that you did yourself.

>no more "wargear" read powers, for daemons.

Why?

It was fun, flavorful, and added character to the daemon character units. Now Every single bloodthirster is one of the 3, every single herald is the same, etc.

>>53718604
>>53718657
literal subhuman culling when

>>53718925
The official neophyte box is by far my favorite kit, I highly recommend it

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>>53718147
>>53718255

Pretty good as take all comers.
Surprisingly the mortar is one of the least effective weapons, makes up for it by not requiring LOS.

>>53718925
Yeah, for 64 points you get a decent little unit. Reroll 1s in CC too.

>>53718473
Cawl IS the mechanicus.

>>53718959

Codex, not Index.

>>53718955
Unless you are me.

I've gotten worst as the time pass by

>>53718939
Tbqh it's more of a fun meme list than anything. I'm sure the Apothecary would be better than the Ancient, but giving everyone +1A seems like a good thing to have, since they're going to be outnumbered they might as well fight their hardest to not lose any models.

>>53718949

Thats the point.

>>53718657
should have poured liquid glue into his case like that other guy did.

>>53718940

Enjoy watching your troops get swarmed by hundreds of 3 point models.
Also top kek at the fact that you need to protect giant mech suits from dogshit infantry with no AT in 8th edition.

>>53718980
while i wouldnt do that, i dont judge the guy who did

some people fucking deserve it

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>>53718986
>conscripts are mathematically provably the best point-for-point infantry choice in the game

>>53718986
>he puts his knight on the table
>for the same point cost I can buy like idk 10 3 man HWS?
>Can your knight fight against 30 Lascannons? I don't fucking think so

kek

>>53718986

How is this different from chucking nades in 7th (before they FAQ'd it out of the game)? If vehicles didn't need troop protection, then you people would be bitching about vehicles being OP.

>>53719005

Looking forward to Astra Militarum dominating in the upcoming Konor campaign.

>>53719005
Where's the math?

>>53719005
I love it, but I'm not keen on painting another 150 cadians.

>>53718986
That's why knights should be run as an auxiliary army, not a standalone.

Going to be playing 100 power against an ork friend of mine wednesday. My Dynasty has a mirror theme going on to it, so I try to keep units in 2s, to represent the Twin Phaerons. How's this look?

Overlord: 7
Overlord: 7
Cryptek: 6
Cryptek: 6

20 Warriors: 12
20 Warriors: 12
10 Immortals: 8
10 Immortals: 8

Annihilation Barge: 7
Annihilation Barge: 7

Doom Scythe: 10
Doom Scythe: 10

100 Power on the nose, 6 Command Points.

>>53719005

2pt 4+inv demons care to disagree

>>53719026

>8th ed
>still can't do the math by himself

fuck you people

>>53719005
>tfw have to make movement trays work for round bases now that blasts are no longer a thing

>>53718657
the first part was believable

this is just stdh.txt

>>53719046

Grey Knights auxiliary can deal with that

>>53719047
Hey man, this is 4chan. don't set the bar too high.

>>53718410
Consider playing 40k on Tabletop Simulator or Vassal40k if you really can't stand the painting and modeling side of things.

>>53719023

>How is this different from chucking nades in 7th (before they FAQ'd it out of the game)?
Because one involves using specialist weapons at close range to presumably hit a vehicle in vulnerable areas, and the other involved drowning them in dirt cheap lasgunfire because lol everything wounds on a 6 now

>>53719047
I'm just asking for you to copy/paste it.

My initial guess is that the morale rules would fuck conscripts over.

>>53718925
The two strategies I've come up with (not tested yet, don't have the models required) for getting Round the 50% units on the board are to create a separate detachment of pyramids or AM for heavy dakka support (relatively durable monsters or vehicles, drives up the total # of units in your list, gives high-strenght ranged attacks or useful pyramid payer spells), or to use goliath trucks to carry kitted out neophytes to protect them while spitting out decent dakka at mid-range while being more durable.

>>53719027

People still model Cadians? I would just get a bunch of Tempestus troops, spray paint them red, douse them in wash, paint the weapons and visors, and call it a day as that Hydra regiment that belongs in the Ultramar region.

>>53719052
theres a guy on ebay who makes some good ones, MDF/Plastic options, select how many columns/rows you want, theres an option for literally base to base movement trays or separated ones

i got some, they're pretty good, the open order ones i prefer because it's alot easier to get 40k models to fit on it. most models extend past their base and so they don't cooperate well when it comes to stacking them base to base.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Open-Order-Movement-Tray-25mm-round-bases-/201835476286?var=&hash=item2efe54f53e:m:mqOrNn1KAYbjJcECxKjRS6g

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HChwSZpOrwg
>Slaanesh's Damnation: The Musical

Come and join the anthem.

>>53719030

But there's the same problem with all superheavies.
Baneblades get raped by conscripts just as easily.
And conscripts literally out shoot every other infantry in the game, except guard mortar teams and maybe a couple others.

>>53719092
>Buying 200 Tempustus

My fucking wallet jesus christ. At least there is fuckloads of cheap cadians on the net.

>>53719081
They will, but commissars are dirt cheap.

The best strategy atm is to send wave after wave of conscripts to their deaths, with Commissars standing behind them meaningully cleaning their bolt pistols.

>>53719073

If you can kill a knight with Chaos cultists on consistent rolls of 6s over 5 turns then I hope you make batrep videos and put them on your youtube channel for full hilarity.

>>53718804
Trying for a casual 2k list, but I'm not sure it has enough punch even for casual

1 Anrakyr the Traveller
1 Catacomb Command Barge w/ Gauss Cannon
1 Cryptek
20 Necron Warriors
20 Necron Warriors
10 Triarch Praetorians w/ Rod of Covenant
1 Triarch Stalker w/ Heat Ray
1 Ghost Ark
1 Monolith

>>53719045
How do you get command points if yo aren't battle-forged? Here's mine BTW.

Necron Army 1,977 (99) CP 5

Supreme Command Detachment CP 1

HQ (3) 327 (17)
Cryptek 86, Staff of Light 18 104 (6)
Cryptek 86, Staff of Light 18 104 (6)
Lord 73, Resurrection Orb 35, Warscythe 11 119 (5)

Outrider Detachment CP 1

HQ (1) 119 (5)
Lord 73, Resurrection Orb 35, Warscythe 11 119 (5)

Troops (2) 340 (24)
Immortals (10), Gauss Blaster (10) 90 170 (8)
Immortals (10), Gauss Blaster (10) 90 170 (8)

Fast Attack (3) 1,017 (45)
Canoptek Wraiths (6) 228, Particle Caster (6) 24 252 (12)
Destroyers (6) 258, Gauss Cannon (6) 120 378 (18)
Tomb Blades (9) 216, Nebuloscope (9) 27, Particle Beamer (9) 90, Shieldvanes (9) 54 387 (15)

Dedicated Transports (1) 174 (8)
Night Scythe 174 (8)

>>53719085
Could you just take a separate detachment for Tyranids, spam Spore mines/Rippers and just have that fill out the unit cap?

at least they can both deep strike and join in the fight

>>53719026
There's basic stats for Guardsmen/Conscripts in the WIP math doc, bottom link of OP.

>>53719081

>morale mattering
>when you can buy commissars for so cheap, that a vindicare could shoot at them for 6 turns in a row and not even make his points back
lmao

>>53719124
>How do you get command points if yo aren't battle-forged? Here's mine BTW.
You cant play matched play if youre not battle forged

>>53719109
>Not running the banehammer loaded to the gills with heavy weapons teams shooting out of it

do you want to win or not?

>>53719124
How is that not battleforged? It fits perfectly in a Battalion; 4 HQ, 4 Troops work just fine there.

Also, such odd formatting you have; is that from a list builder of some kind?

>>53719073
>5 to hit, 6 to wound, 3+ save
1/3X1/6X1/3= 1/54.
okay, I'm just throwing this out there, but I'm pretty sure you can get things putting out more than 1/54 wound per point.
Oh wait, this is assuming FRFSRF and 12", because getting into range is a thing all these mathhammer ignores all the time. But it is 2pts so, 1/27 wound per point per turn.
Still pretty sure I can find better.

>>53719109
Look, how many people do you know have 150+ conscripts?

>>53719005
Gun Drones put out roughly as much dakka-per-point

>>53719141
My bad. I didn't catch that it fit a battalion. Aren't they max 3 HQs? Not gonna bust out the pdf for that.

That's just how I type stuff out.

>>53719127
You have to choose between taking guard or tyranids, you can't have both.

>>53719124
> Tomb Blades with particle beamers
> 8th edition

I'm curious as to your reason for this choice. Do you really think they'll pull their weight?

The Wraiths I already don't agree with, but I know it's a personal choice.

>haha yes, my 500 conscripts will win this for sure
>hit on 6+, wound on 6+, every enemy model gets saves on 2+
>oh no!

>>53719191
I know, i will be going for Tyranids if i do ally them in

>>53718410
>6 hours assembling

Are you some kind of retard? (no offense intended)

I just spent 4 weeks painting 5 wolf scouts for armageddon; I'm gonna jump into 8th tomorrow but I know it's gonna take me ages. (I work 48 hours a week and have to balance days off between sport/girlfriend/child/hobby)

I timed myself today painting a wolf scout after the prime had dried. 5 hours! It looks sweet but fucking hell....

>>53719197

Magnus please.

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>>53719109
>>53719030
>>53719005
>>53719011
>>53719023
>>53719005
>>53719023
>>53719026
>>53719027
>>53719046
>>53719052
With a commissar, priest and officer nearby, a 50 man squad of conscripts (which only costs 150 points, plus 85 for the three special characters) has up to 4 shots per model, up to 4 attacks in combat, is unbreakable and loses a maximum of one model per morale test, and gets to reroll hit dice in it's first combat phase, whether it charged or gets charged.

Keep in mind you only need one 30 point officer for every two Conscript squads, and one Commissar or Priest could easily fit two squads into their bubbles. So 300+85= 385 points for 100 conscripts plus 3 characters which can pump out 400 lasgun shots, 400 attacks (with rerolls first combat phase) and can never lose more than 2 models a turn to morale.

This, when compared to every single other infantry choice in the game, is such an effective force multiplier that, for example, Ork Boys will lose in close combat versus them if you go by points killed vs points lost. Ork shoota Boys will be out shot by them. Conscripts are officially better Orks than Orks.

>>53719109
I bet a Stormlord carrying HB teams could do pretty well.

>>53719171

Considering the fact that you can buy them for about $1.50 each, we'll probably all know a lot soon.

>>53719194
Thats all WYSISYG. I love tomb blade for being tomb blades. I think ignoring the opponent's bonus from cover will be nice. Also hordes.

>>53719127
You could, but to me that seems like a cheeky useless waste if points. We already have great melee, what we need is high strength long range dakka, which either nids or AM can provide, not to mention great centrepiece models (which is important to me). If all you want is cheap unit spam why not spam scout sentinels as outsider detachment with either autocannons is missile launchers? That 9" move and the scout rule grant a ridiculous turn 1 threat bubble.

>>53719185
Don't have to bust out the PDF; the basic ones are still up on Warhammer Community.

It does, however, turn out you're correct. So, drop out one of the Crypteks, and I'm not sure what to replace it with, especially keeping the duality theme. Suggestions?

>>53719144
I mean stormlord fuck

>10 Lascannon teams shooting off the deck
>4 Lascannons
>5 Twin heavy bolters
>twin heavy stubbers
>Heavy 20 Vulcan mega bolter

DAKKA
A
K
K
A

>>53719144

I'm now laughing at the mental image of hundreds of conscripts running at a banehammer, as mortar teams shoot from it

>>53719227
zealot is not an aura buff. it only applies to the priest

>>53719227

This is pure mathhammer though, as this entire scheme relies on a flat open battlefield. How many models can you jam onto the side of a table?

>>53719194
Also what about the wraiths? They move fast and will hold down a unit then move back and fire their pistols. I have some other stuff I could use. Two barges for example?

>>53719235
most effective anti horde unit is a taurox prime, followed by a punisher russ

stormlord is extensively overpointed

>>53719227
>ds can hit the rear officers.
>snipers make mincemeat.
oh, and do the math with meltavets and do point cost and average damage. I'm sure you can do it.

>>53718812
Autocannons are great for dealing with terminators. Wound them on 3+, invul saves so AP -1 is all you can get anyways, and it will kill a terminator with each unsaved wound. I don't think they will be the go to heavy weapon like they used to, but that is a good thing.

>>53719238
If someone wants to spend $75 per 150 point squad, all the power to them.

>>53719255

The funny thing is,
that probably still loses to conscripts.

>>53718206
does nobody reply to nid lists anymore?

>>53719247
Do what I did and take a command detachment to mimic your old royal court.

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>>53719185
>>53719247
I'm thinking a full squad of Canoptek Scarabs. They give me a way to reach objectives quickly and with w3, they can hold the line fairly well. Nothing pisses Orks off worse than having to go around a unit instead of through it.

>>53719272
We were talking about superheavies friend.

>>53719287
What would I drop out to get the extra 1 or 2 Lords?

>>53719258
Holy crap you might be right. I just re-read the entry and that might put Conscripts a little lower down the list.

Ah well, even their +1 attack is still a huge boon, given the fix bayonets order. Rerolling hits was giving Conscripts a real edge but without it they might be knocked down back to 2nd or 3rd.

>>53719289
Surprisingly, I don't own a single scarab. My necrons are what you see there plus two barges, fifteen warriors, and an unfinished busted ass d lord.

>>53718962
I can't believe they balanced shit out. The trend is clear.

>>53719227
Now do it for melee conscripts.

>>53719313
I was talking about for my list.

Annihilation Barges look like the tits now. I'd suggest using them. But I'm looking for advice too.

Are you supposed to measure distance from the middle of the base or from the edge closest to the direction you want to go?

>>53719227
This also isn't a picture of an actual army. It was answering a different question, so that's a little misleading. The conscripts alone are 3750 points.

>>53719307
YOu don't need to drop anything. Three of those HQs go over to the supreme command on one stays in the battalion.

>>53717075
>>53717501
This reminded me of a story.
(1/2)
>be me 14 years ago
>want to get my little brother into 40k
>write up two army lists, one for my orks, one for my guard, because he seems to like guard
>I'm really hoping he'll enjoy this so we can play, paint, and talk shop about army lists together
>take him to LGS to play his first ever game of 40k
>LGS is not a bad place, a little small at the time, but clean place, friendly staff, and great tables/terrain
>take my brother into one of the smaller side rooms with a table and terrain for mini wargames
>room has a door and I close it so we don't have to listen to the MtG players gibbering at each other in the big room
>set up our armies and start playing
>I'm walking him through the game, explaining each step as we go along, the typical stuff
>he seems to be enjoying himself, having fun, even a few laughs
>at one point he managed to hit one of my big mobs with 4 perfectly positioned flamers, one-shotting it
>we were both genuinely having a good time
>suddenly the door knob turns

If you had a two weapons with identical damage stats except one was melee and the other was ranged (say, 24"), what would you say is the appropriate factor by which their point values should differ? I'd assume the ranged weapon should cost more due to being able to use it more safely/often, but by how much?

>the conscript meme
Did you all just today start playing this game or something?

Max Guard platoons with missile launchers and commissars have always been the absolute pinnacle of list building since all the back to 3rd edition.

The only reason it never caught on is because no one wants to buy and paint hundreds of shitty catacha, then cadian, bodies.

Coming back for 8th edition. Can any anon recommend a decent xeno army?

>>53719273

>>ds can hit the rear officers.
Wrong. There will be too many models on the table to legally deepstrike anywhere but your own side of the table.

>snipers make mincemeat.
Nope. Vindicare takes at least 7 turns to even make back its point cost against commissars
Ratlings do better, but they're shorter range and much more vulnerable.

>>53718657
Man, people have issues.

>>53719335
Battalions are two minimum, see >>53719289

>>53719325
>>53719335

>>53719345
Necrons.

>>53719338
(2/2)
>the door creaks open to reveal the most disgusting human being I have ever laid eyes on in my entire life
>matted, greasy hair, patchy neckbeard, pock-marked skin, crusty mouth, fingers stained with some kind of snack food flavor dust, wearing a ratty, food-stained hoodie, and so fat that even his eye lids were fat rolls
>think nothing of it at first, it wasn't unusual for someone to want to sneak a peek and watch your game at our LGS
>a couple seconds later, the smell that followed him into the room hit us
>the most fetid fucking disgusting rotten cheeseball fucking dead animal smelling fucking ancient mayo smelling ass stench that has ever existed punches us both in the face
>literally weapons grade levels of body odor, the likes of which I had never encountered before, and would never experience again
>smell is so unbearable that my face turned red, my eyes started to water, and I immediately felt like I was going to wretch
>my brother was looking at me with a pure, innocent kind of horror, like he had just lost the part of himself that still believed in Santa Claus
>this fat sack of human fucking garbage is hovering over the table, apparently completely unaware of the effects of his inhuman stink
>he surveyed the tabletop with his disgusting subhuman little eyes peering out from under the fat flaps on top of them
>he raised his stinking ham ball of a head and turned it towards me
>the creature split open its soda-stained lips to speak
>even his voice sounded fat as the spittle-flecked words groaned forth from the monster's gaping maw
>"My Shpashe Marinesh could totally poon your Orksh."
My brother ended up not getting into 40k.

>>53719345
All armies are at least passable, from what we've seen. Pick whatever army has the combination of aesthetic, playstyle and lore you like best.

>>53719338
>take my brother into one of the smaller side rooms with a table and terrain for mini wargames
>room has a door and I close
Was your little brother molested?

Because my bad

>>53719341
>guard platoons
remember when those existed

>>53719353

>>53719350

Now that we've caught up to each other, have any other suggestions?

>>53719278

People will do way more than that to win tournaments

>>53719361
And didn't exist before that. Shit changes.

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>>53719355

>>53719350
Shit. I don't think you will be able to keep your duality theme then. I'm stumped. I'll mull it over for a bit and see what I can suggest.

>>53719227

>30 point officer

Aren't they vulnerable to being hit by artillery and flyers?

Furthermore, aren't Conscripts kind of limited in what they can do?

>>53719373
If it gets to that point conscripts become 4 or 5 points. Problem solved.

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>Your girlfriend has been painting the odd model here and there to be part of your hobby time and asks if you would play a little 40k game with her so she can try it out.
>this happens

What do you do?

>>53719348
>consider the effect on the commissar on the conscripts when talking about effectiveness, but when killing commissars only the commissars price is considered.
>forgets that at the point cost for those conscripts the table size increases.

>>53719390

Welcome to Mathhammer, where the kill points don't matter.

>>53719390
>vulnerable to being hit by artillery and flyers
What do you mean by this? They're characters, so as long as they're in the blob, the only thing that can hit them are snipers and non-smite psychic powers.

>>53719397
I tell her to not be fucking retarded and git gud.

>>53719390
>artillery
No

>flyers
Only with incompetent positioning.

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>>53719227
Who owns this much guardsmen

Who the fuck wants to own this? or paint it? or to fight it?

I would refuse anyone who wanted to spend an hour unpacking this shit and setting it up, fuck that shit

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>no robes to put over my new Primaris Dark Angels
FUCK

>>53719415
>m o v e m e n t t r a y s
>m o n e y

>>53719355
I thought Great Unclean Ones were supposed to be jolly.

>>53719415
Someone made the very real point that trying to wrangle this many models and rolls very possibly runs into the time limit.

>>53719397
Based on what I saw at my LGS, you sigh, shake your head, and let her make her mistakes. Don't be cruel like was seen there, just play it through and explain why she fucked up after.

Then put her against other players, and basically play for her, despite making the other player promise to go easy on her before the game started.

What's the best way to assassinate commisars so I can start scaring the crap out of conscripts?

>>53718268
They are still really good but they play a lot differently this edition. Most people before were getting by on mass MSU acolytes in the subterranean uprising formation - that playstyle is gone now. Can't do it anymore. If you were running the GSC gimmick lists that ambushed literally every single thing during deployment and fished for first turn charges you're going to do poorly now. Lrn2play.

>>53719415
>Who owns this much guardsmen

Some people that been playing for a long time, I remember a local tourney around 4th-5th ed where a guard player had so many guardsmen in the table that he just swarmed the objectives and surrounded the vehicles he couldnt kill, they just couldnt kill all of them at the end of the game.

>>53719442
Space Marine Scouts. Fill a troop slot, so you get more CP. Have 3+ to hit sniper rifles, and can hide better in cover against shooty armies.

>>53719442
From what I've seen so far, most snipers will generally cost more than the commisars they kill over a game, and will generally take at least a couple turns to do it.

>>53718563
They cost 6 points less per model at the cost of losing Cult Ambush.

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>>53719345

Elfdar.

The classic and best xeno army.

>>53719439
That picture is crazy anyway. Less than half that many completely fill up a deployment zone. That said, I can absolutely see competitive Guard lists running 100-200 conscripts.

>>53719404

Obviously english isn't your first language, but I'll try my best here.

>>consider the effect on the commissar on the conscripts when talking about effectiveness, but when killing commissars only the commissars price is considered.
You are laboring under some kind of mistake there.
The point I made was that snipers are not a cost effective solution to commissars.
Meaning that for every 100 points of snipers you take, you may only get 80 points worth of kills, meaning that as long as the conscripts bring at least as many points of commissars as you have snipers, you'll never win in that trade.

>forgets that at the point cost for those conscripts the table size increases.
Not sure what you're referring to, because 500 conscripts can easily fit into a standard 2,000 point army.

So does ANYONE like the new primaris marines rules?

Hellblasters are good.

Commander is somewhere between bad and mediocre.

Inceptors are pretty good for deepstrike deleting hordes.

Intercessors are hot dogshit, overcosted, and utterly useless.

LT's and Ancients are overcosted compared to their normal astartes counterpart.

What the fuck happened? I thought GW normally did super overpowered rules to move their new kits and then nerfed them later. Who in their right mind is going to buy primaris models once they get their own kits outside the starter set?

>>53719415
Anyone who's been playing Guardsmen longer than the band wagon has existed, and bought the models back when they were cheap.

>>53719461
You've gotta figure that killing the commissar lets you kill far more points worth of conscripts.

>>53718565
They're basically jump infantry with 16" move now. No more penalty to hit, no more jink, enemies can charge them, etc.

And yet they're still really, really good. I run melee ones for almost guaranteed first turn charges.

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>>53719480
you can easily fit 700 conscripts into a standard deployment zone

>>53719442
ratling, rangers, deathmarks, sniper drones.

>>53719350
Got it. Just take the +1 one model -1 command point detachment. You'll be down one command point but fuck it. A 5 is fine too.

>>53719442
there are no cost effective snipers apart from ratlings, and ratlings dont have the range to be effective snipers

conscripts are too cheap to be worth sniping

>>53719361

I bet you my bottom dollar that guard will get platoons back in their codex and Conscripts will get nerfed to hell.

I think that the reason conscripts have so few restrictions in the index is they wanted for existing blob guard players to be able to use their armies but they wanted to keep the faction specific rules sections for each faction short so they didn't put the platoon rules in.

>>53719457
This was still doable in 7th, just with tzeentch daemons. I wound up going against the weirdest fucking list in our going-away tourney:

> Shitload of Exalted Flamers
> Fateweaver
> Herald of Tzeentch
> 2-3 squads of Pink Horrors
> 2 squads of Blue Horrors
> Some other shit I don't remember

He used a Beam power off of Fateweaver to kill his own Pink Horrors and enhance his Blue Horror squad, with each kill giving him like 4 blues because of some relic.

He attached the Herald of Tzeentch to the back of the squad with the relic that makes their strength d6

The Grimoire gave them a plus to their invuln save.

You did not have enough killy to chew through that many blue horrors, and even if you did you had to kill them again in the form of Brimstone Horrors.

>>53719472
Can't do it, they can't ally.

>>53719345
Legitimately, Orks. They are top tier.

>>53719545
>Can't do it, they can't ally.
Why not? They all have the Aeldari faction keyword.

>>53719495

All that does is encourage them to take more commissars.
And if you take more snipers to match them, you end up in a rapidly losing battle.

>>53719483
>meaning that as long as the conscripts bring at least as many points of commissars as you have snipers, you'll never win in that trade.
then your ratio of commissar to conscripts gets thrown off.
When that happens you just kill the conscripts.

Of course this still labors under the false assumption that even against vehicles conscripts are the most cost effective offense (which the math for always uses officers and commissars but doesn't include in the point cost), and the flat empty table assumption.

>>53719345
Nids.

>>53719545

What do you mean they can't ally?

>>53719532
I sincerely hope so. There's an 8th edition tournament coming up on the 15th, and out of the 32 players and out of those I personally know three people playing horde guard, not including myself, not including those I don't know.

>>53719529
>and ratlings dont have the range to be effective snipers
They can deploy anywhere on the board 18" from an enemy. Just put them on rooftops overlooking objectives and wait for the conscript blob with its characters to try and move close enough to cap.

>>53719513
Sniper drones would be my choice just for the range, but I think you'd really want a Marksman and a bunch of them, and even then I think you'd be looking at over 100 points to reliably kill a commissar quickly from a range where conscripts won't fuck you.

5 sniper drones at 48" and BS 3 would be 2.5 hits

>>53719556
So what's the best strategy, in your opinion, to deal with conscript spam? Or is conscript spam just a meme that won't take off?

>>53719495
The issue is that any conscript-spammer knows that their commissars are their one weakness, so they'll take plenty of extras. The following aren't real numbers, but the idea is that if it takes you 2 turns for a sniper to kill a commissar, but a sniper costs even 1.5 times as much, you are going to lose more than they are. By the point that you are literally running an army of snipers, you don't have anything else to actually capitalize on the commissar-less conscripts.

>>53719345
Genestealer Cult, plays dramatically different from any other army.

>>53719562
>>53719553

I read Taudar, sorry, I am traumatised by them.

>>53718128
40k has proven that WW1-era strategy was basically the peak of military theory, where total commitment of manpower and industry was shown to be unbeatable and every development in war since has just been an attempt to avoid that level of horror and not because it was outdated.

>>53718962
Nice! But personally, I prefer to see the points according to just the weapons, since I can take the weapons on tanks, troops, HWT's, veterans, and more.

But if you omit the BS multiplier, all those weapons should be equally effected anyways.

>>53719580
Any group of models with twin-linked guns/good melee and a bit of armor. 300 shots doesn't matter much when they can't actually roll any wounds on you. Also, play LoS.

>Fighting a million conscripts
>Drop down Mortarion
>implying he won't be able to cast Plague multiple times
>And no doubt have a plague aura that just kills people nearby
>And have crazy FNP/self healing to resist a million lasguns
>Remove them by the bucketful

This guy will be the answer

Believe in the Death Guard

>>53719545
>Can't do it, they can't ally.
Craftworld, Dark Eldar, Harlies and Ynnari can all ally. Nids can ally with GSC and through them Guard. Orks, Tau and Necrons can't ally period.

>>53719571
The problem is, see this image.
>>53719508
Even if you stick your Ratlings directly in the middle of the board, the Sniper Rifle's range is just too short now. The Guard player can keep their Commissars just out of range for a good two turns if they know how to deploy correctly. Even then, 50 points for 10 Ratlings, = 2.5 Commissars. They won't kill those 2 and a half Commissars in time for it to have been worth it. The Commissars only really have to survive to turn 3 to have made their points back in preventing morale-deaths.

>>53719556
>take more commissars.
>at 3 commissar per conscript unit (even at 50 man) that's almost doubling the cost of the conscripts. Then add in the officer for the order, who can also be sniped, so better double up there too.
Given that the conscript math depends on them being 3pts per model, when with support their at 5-6 pts per model effective, the battle is won.

>>53719558

>then your ratio of commissar to conscripts gets thrown off.
And your army is full of nothing but snipers.

>When that happens you just kill the conscripts.
With what?

>Of course this still labors under the false assumption that even against vehicles conscripts are the most cost effective offense
Nobody is saying they're the most cost effective AT.
What they are saying is that they have so many wounds, the tanks can't do anything about them, as the conscripts blaze away with their lasguns, getting far more points in kills than they take.

>(which the math for always uses officers and commissars but doesn't include in the point cost),
I can point to 3 instances in this very thread where you're wrong.

>and the flat empty table assumption.
Your 6 buildings on a 6x4 board aren't drastically altering the game.

>>53719484
They will almost certainly be getting either their own codex, or will at least be featured heavily in the Space Marines codex, and either way, we all know that SM and DG are getting their codices first.
I wouldn't be extremely surprised if they turn out to be better in their own book.

>>53719615
Nids cannot ally with the guard. GSC alone can ally with the guard, but if you introduce nids to that, you're no longer obeying the faction keyword rules.

>>53719612
Or just poxwalkers.

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Am I reading this right? The Deathstrike hits on a 4+, but is 1 use only AND requires a D6+Turn# > 5 to fire at all?

So of your average 10-11 hits only about 5 of them will hit. Everything else is just a waste of 155 points?

Why would anyone ever field one of these pieces of shit? They don't even look cool. At least GW could have gone for a more interesting "Scud Launcher" design, rather than the absolutely retarded, "manticore with 1 huge missile stuffed between a few tiny ones" look.

>>53719618
take out one commissar and punish just what's no longer bubbled?

>>53719513
>>53719442
I think Illic Nightspear might be a good choice, but even he requires a bit of luck. His rifle hits and wounds on 2s, and it ignores the Commisar's armor entirely. Then it does d3 damage, plus a mortal wound if you roll a 6+

Decent odds for one-shotting a commisar, and he only costs 88 points. If you also brought a squad of rangers to help clean up any that survive with 1 wound, I think you could be rather efficient.

>>53719484
> What the fuck happened? I thought GW normally did super overpowered rules to move their new kits and then nerfed them later

This is a meme and incorrect. Last edition's starter was Chaos vs. Dark Angels, two dogshit armies minus Ravenwing.

Before that it was Space Marines and Orks, when the only army Marines had was rhino rush and there wasn't even a viable Ork army.

The trend continues back into the mists of history.

>>53719612

>Poxwalkers regenerate numbers from kills

I suspect that Nurgle has an answer to Conscript spam, and it's Conscript spam that turns your opponent's Conscripts into Nurgle Conscripts. A few units that buff the Poxwalker hordes and suddenly you have very strong zombies that make more zombies. A Nurgle's "Big Hug" Army strategy, welcome your enemy's units into your own army.

>>53719621

Are you actually so retarded that you think filling your army with so many snipers you can deal with their 10 commissars is actually a good idea?
Literally all you're doing is making your 2000v2000 point game into a 1400v1500 point game in favor of the conscripts

Which faction seems best suited for an outrider detachment based army? Or is that detachment more so used to supplement the troop based detachments.

>>53719647
see
>>53719581

Haruspex seems well positioned to eat conscript based armies. A horde of conscripts is basically just a horde of health packs for it.

>>53719637
Yup, Deathstrikes are a joke.
There's literally no reason to ever take one, unless you're playing a thematic/friendly game and just want to have a gimmick.
It's like the Shokk Attack Gun of the guard.

>>53718410
Look up army painter techniques, as in the company 'army painter' and never bother with GW's system ever again.

>>53719637
Because it used to be an apocalyptic blast of pure ridiculousness with unlimited range for a relatively cheap price. It was perfect. If they were going to keep any sort of blast template, this is the one they should've kept.

>>53719484

Not really, I remember the 3rd Edition starter box set being incredibly 1 sided in favor of Space Marines even though the Dark Eldar were a brand new army.

>>53719599
this, essentially, sums up the 8th edition meta

>>53719624
He's more pointing out that if you bring this army to a tournament or a game it'll fall flat at some point. Either you bring too few commisars and someone who brought enough snipers to kill anything picks them off and wipes out the rest of your army with battleshock, or you bring too many and you end up facing someone who brought a normal list and a bunch of your commissars go to waste as he just rolls over your conscripts.

>>53719451
Mechanized GSC went from "I just like the models man" to "you're retarded if this is not in your list in some fashion," I am so hyped for our codes. I'm curious what artifacts we will get, maybe something to bring back our ability to replenish models?

>>53719581
> so they'll take plenty of extras.
then the conscripts stop being point effective.

>>53719618
No one is going to fill their deployment zone with conscripts you fucking idiot. They'll run MAX 200 of them and I suspect it'll be less than that. You can deploy 18" away with a 36" range gun so they need to keep the officers more than 18" back from the front line as they conga line the cons forward, which means you maul the blob and they have to either take guys from the front, slowing their advance, or they take guys from the back, breaking the chain.

>>53719705
ROCKGRINDERS GRIND THEIR FACES OFFFFF

>>53719634
Wrong, the Brood Brothers rule lets you ignore all units with the Astra Militarum Keyword when selecting your army faction. You can legally run an army with one Detachment of Tyranids, one Detachment of GSC, and one Detachment of Astra Militarum, choosing Tyranids as your army Faction keyword.

>>53719634
Incorrect. You include one detachment where they all include the Generstealer Cults keyword, Blood Brothers now say you can include an AM detachment. Note it doesn't say that you have to choose them as a GSC detachment for army purposes, just that they all have the GSC keyword. Then Blood Brothers says the AM detachment is IGNORED when choosing army faction. This means you can now choose a Tyranid detachment and run the entire army under the Tyranid keyword.

>>53719684
It doesn't do even close to enough damage for its points. Haruspex is worthless vs conscripts.

>>53719666
Are you seriously arguing that the Conscript player can see the future list of who he's playing and know exactly how many Commissars to bring?

If you bring 500 points worth of commisars then you lose to the guy with a normal 2000 point list, since now your 3 point conscripts are effectively 4 points, and you lose to the madman who brought 1000 points of snipers and 1000 points of anti-infantry because he was that scared of your list.

>>53719714
see
>>53719569
I'm taking 500 Conscripts in my 2k list.

Most of the missions in this ass backwards edition are hold-the-objective. I am going to hold every objective, and no army is going to be equipped to kill 500 models in 5 turns.

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Getting into the hobby for the first time. Is making my Primaris army Dark Angels a smart idea? Fuck I love their lore.

>>53719713
Do they? Even without buffs, Conscripts are one of the most points-efficient troops in the game (check the math-hammer chart). That doubles with things like FRFSR. Saturating them with commissars will reduce their efficiency, but it won't be enough to make it actually infeasible; they'll still have one of the best dakka-to-point ratios.

>>53719704

>He's more pointing out that if you bring this army to a tournament or a game it'll fall flat at some point. Either you bring too few commisars and someone who brought enough snipers to kill anything picks them off
Maybe by turn 4 or 5.
Commissars having 3 wounds for only 30 points make them take a long time for even an equal point amount of snipers to kill.
If you bring twice as many points in vindicares as they do commissars, you'll probably kill all their commissars by turn 4.

>and wipes out the rest of your army with battleshock,
Even with battleshock, you'll STILL have a very hard time clearing off that many models.

>or you bring too many and you end up facing someone who brought a normal list and a bunch of your commissars go to waste as he just rolls over your conscripts.
lol
Conscripts are so points efficient that you could make a third of your army commissars and probably still win against anything but a hardcore super anti hoard list.

>>53719761
Go for it man!

>>53718410
>Does anyone else hate/merely tolerate it because they just like the game itself?
I don't know how anyone could enjoy Warhammer with this attitude. The game itself is incredibly mediocre.

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All 4 assassins make an absolute mess of conscripts

>vindicare sniping out commisars
>Eversor knocking over 10+ conscripts a turn
>Callidus knocking over 10+ conscripts a turn
>Culexus knocking over 10+ conscripts a turn while laughing at their attempts to shoot him.

And that's only what, like 500 points? 1500 points left for other shit like punisher cannon leman russes ro taurox's, heavy bolter teams, ratlings, etc.

>>53719713
You only need to take ~2 Commissars per 500 points before it would be completely point-ineffective for your opponent to try to match you in the sniper-vs-commissar arms race.

>>53719666
>10 commisars
>300pts.
except without the commissar the conscripts die quickly to moral.
Hell you don't need to kill all the commissars all at once. Kill enough to isolate 1 unit of conscripts and all shooting is basically double effective against that unit.
So I only really need to be able to kill max 2 commissars in one turn.

If you have 10 commissars of 10 units of conscripts is not going to provide you the redundancy to protect against that. Once you start doubling up, conscripts aren't point effective.

>>53719213
Definitely an exaggeration but it felt like it took forever.

>Edge high-light your gun casing
What did Duncan mean by this?

>>53719760
So what are you going to do about the armies that bumrush transports into the travel lanes and block you from moving within 3" of the objective? You won't kill them and you won't be able to get past them.

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Post yfw all the conscript horde armies place bottom-tier in the tournament circuit and /tg/ turns out to be completely wrong about the meta yet again

>>53719804
Hell, you don't even have to bother with transports most of the time. Most armies feature some deep strike capable unit that commisars have no hope of killing.

>>53719759

>If you bring 500 points worth of commisars then you lose to the guy with a normal 2000 point list,
The thing is, you literally wont.

>since now your 3 point conscripts are effectively 4 points, and you lose to the madman who brought 1000 points of snipers and 1000 points of anti-infantry because he was that scared of your list.
Maybe if those 1000 points are mortar spam, maybe
Otherwise, you literally don't have enough damage to make a dent in them.
Your 2,000 point army becomes a 1,000 point army when the snipers are done shooting characters, because they're basically worthless agains conscripts.

You're obviously just upset that horde spam is a meta strategy, and think it shouldn't be,
so you're trying to come up with reasons to reach the conclusion you've chosen, instead of following reason to its natural conclusion.

>>53719750
>>53719743
Okay, I can see how you'd interpret that rule that way, but also that's retarded as fuck, and it will most likely be changed for clarity.

>>53719691
If they hadn't worded it so badly the ability to spread mortal wounds to units within 6" would've been nice.

>>53719818
I assume tournaments wont allow negative CP armies honestly

>>53719771
>need to kill all the commissars
why do you keep thinking this.
Kill 2, unit exposed, wipe unit.
Repeat.

And if models alone were enough, you'd be saying gretchen and brimstones were better because they're cheaper.

>Conscripts are so points efficient
point efficiency decreases sharply as backup support models increases.
point efficiency relies on math with stupid assumptions.