/CofD/ & /wodg/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness

>>53710818
Well...
* Vampires attempted to fuck with the ABC organizations
* Vampires failed, and the government (not just Project Twilight, but the full government) got wind of 'unliving entities' in their midst.
* They, along with some backing from the Technocracy, began a purge. This is the Second Inquisition.
* This is due in large part to the Anarch Movement as a sect.
* The Camarilla became super insular and cut off their youngers, giving them just one rule to follow: the Masquerade. The streets are given over to the neonates and ancillae, and we're returning to the use of 'anarch' in lowercase to mean a non-Elder, non-Camarilla-approved vampire.
* The Camarilla is now something you earn your way into by not being a fuckup.
* Elders have been called to the East to fight in the 'Gehenna War' in ancient, old forgotten temples. The Sabbat followed suit because of the mass of Elders and, y'know, Gehenna.
* The Anarch Movement is a mess of its former self, after single-handedly fucking things up by wrecking Camarilla in Berlin and bringing down the wrath of the government.

>>53713557
Because they hired a shitty avante-garde art director. Everything except the Brujah looks awful, and the Brujah look like fucking hipsters.

>GM keeps giving circumstantial bonus dice to rolls, which is fine, rewards players for things and planning to circumvent this bullshit rng fiesta that seems to be this system
>I've never gotten these bonus dice, only the tabletop grill seems to be getting them

How do I approach the GM about this shit without coming across as petty? They're nice people, but i'm tired of never having a spotlight and it makes my own plans feel pointless if only her plans or persuasion rolls get bonus modifiers

>>53717929
>and the Brujah look like fucking hipsters.

Well, at least that's normal.

>>53718257
Slap your dick on the table to show dominance, then call him out on it.

Or stfu and keep being a bitch.

>>53717842
>Have you played a game set during a war?
In the same time period, yes, but not directly involved with it.
The Arrow was rather excited to acquire some of the newer firearms developed during the American Civil War.
Even if that meant bribing a nameless Mastigos to bring him one back, as the American Consiliums were NOT happy about any foreign Mages getting involved in their domestic dispute, or even really being there.

>>53718257
When about to roll say "hey do i get any bonus dice? How do i get them? Do i need tits?

>>53718257
Try phrasing them as questions about potential actions before you do them.

Don't shout the guy a beer, then ask the GM for a bonus die.

Ask the GM "hey mate, if I buttered this guy up do you think he'd be more receptive to my Socialize roll?"
If he says no, then casually just ask what kind of stuff he thinks would get you dice. Don't put any tone in it, no accusation, if he asks why just say you're trying to get into the right mind-frame as to understand what kind of factors he likes.

Frame it as you're trying to improve the game through working with him.

If he IS a shitcunt and only giving dice to the chick, then later call him out on it when he doesn't let you have your dice.

>>53717842
>Have you played a game set during a war?
A hunter game set in the trenches during WW1. All the bloodshed, disease, and violence was attracting vampires, ghosts, spirits, and worse.

The allies and the central powers agreed on a covert team to deal with the issue.

>>53718659
You mean making ghosts not attracting right?

>>53718741
Little of both. The sheer amount of death had opened up so many avernian gates some real weird shit had crept out of the underworld.

So rate my game idea. A crossover game between Beast, Promethean, Geist, and a fourth one. All set in a space opera

File: spongebob.jpg (38KB, 480x729px) Image search: [Google]

38KB, 480x729px

Has anyone ever used religions other than Christianity as a significant force in their games? Christianity is a staple for vampire games, and sometimes people use a sort of pseudopaganism, but what about, say, Sikhs? Or Muslims?

>>53719180
>crossover
>3 games no one plays
Weak b8, although I think supernatural space opera has potential.
>the moon is always full

>>53719183
I played a Serpent of the Light who worshiped the Loa, but that isn't exactly a religion but it mostly is.

>>53719210
Honestly they look like they could work

Anybody got hold of Building a legend for Beast the primordial yet?

>>53719183
I've run a few games in Australia, and Aboriginal Australian culture/religion has been fairly important.

But really that's because it's pretty much "how to deal with Spirits as a mortal".

>>53720021
>"how to deal with Spirits as a mortal"
With great difficulty.

>>53720743
Not really, prostrate yourself whenever they ask, do what they want, stay away from the areas of powerful ones, and nobody gets hurt.

Well... Somebody gets hurt.

But there was nothing you could do for them.

File: week of nightmares.jpg (31KB, 329x475px) Image search: [Google]

31KB, 329x475px

>>53718209

File: 1494776207663.png (2MB, 1920x1080px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 1920x1080px

>>53717929
>>53718299

>>53717929
This all sounds terrible.

>>53721031
It gets worse. Red talons finally convince the Garou Nation of another Impergium. Vamps and woofs might as well be extinct in 5e

>>53720962
...Yeah that really does look mooostly as-expected for Brujah. Maybe just a little more artsy.

>>53721062
That's not correct. All they said in the actual presentation was 'Impergium is back on the table'. Nothing said AWOO WE KILL DA HUMANS! That's someone's speculation/take on it.

>>53721107
fucking red talons the most stupid and retarded of all the woof tribes
any news on my homeboys hunters?

File: 1494776727675.png (2MB, 1920x1080px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 1920x1080px

>>53721104

They really fucked up the Ventrue though.

>>53721130
WE have literally nothing on werewolf other than that line.

>>53721176
I was asking about hunters not ww though

>>53719183

The thing is that most people who use Christianity in their WoD games tend to be somewhat familiar with Christianity, whereas islam and whatever the sikh got going on are largely unfamiliar and don't hold any particular interest for most people who play WoD. How would you even fit vampires of oWoD into either one of those to begin with?

>>53720962
I'd fuck that guy on the left, no lie

>>53721231
We have literally nothing about Hunters other than 'there's a Second Inquisition,' explicitly as non-Imbued hunters.

File: 1494776434652.png (2MB, 1920x1080px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 1920x1080px

>>53721268

Are you talking about the artwork or the guy sitting in the chair?

>>53721268
... the one with the beanie, or Dracula?>>53721286

>>53721286
Man, I forgot that the Nos look like Giger paintings a bit now.

File: 1494776650737.png (2MB, 1920x1080px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 1920x1080px

>>53721313

Do they? They look like they're just poorly dressed to me.

>>53719183

Mad Batini Terror cells. The idea is that they can encourage Unity by turning everyone else against Islam. Of course, the majority of Batini think this is a fucking horrible idea, because for Unity to last, it can't be a "versus" thing. And I believe the ultimate goal of the Marauders is Division (that's just my take on it.)

Though faking an Alien Invasion might work if it unites Humanity...

>>53721130

I assume they're going to be victims of the "big nothing" that ToJ actually turned out to be.

Or vampires start wearing them as cocksleeves, judging by the character design.

And yes, Red Talons all have the Downs. Given how few wolves are left, they've got to be pretty inbred.

>>53721326
The one in the center has a particularly Giger-esqe headpiece.

>nobody is talking about The Mummy
>literally a high level conspiracy is part of the main plot
>they want to "help" the main character by allowing the mummy's plan to work, by letting a god possess him and them immediately blow him up before he can do anything

Holy shit, the Dark Universe has a lot of potential...

>>53721286
>>53721300
The one in the art.

Rate my character concept

A Hollower who writes bizzaro-fiction novels that satirize various elements of the world of darkness. They're written in such a way that no one who isn't clued in would figure anything out, but are popular in the circles that read bizarre lit.

His most popular work, relatively speaking, is "The Assferatu Chronicles," a series about manipulative, seductive dark lords of the night who suck human excrement out of their victims asses.

>>53721548
Speaking of
>>53721356
I'd fuck the one in the middle here, the art not the photo
>>53721395
And that one as well

>>53721524

I liked that Dr. Jekyll was basically a fishmalk.

>hello im a doctor AND ALSO IM FUCKING EVIL UNLESS I GET THESE INJECTIONS TWICE A DAY so you know that should be a fun roleplaying opportunity

>>53721580
Those are Toreador and Gangrel, FYI.

File: The Batter.jpg (142KB, 730x1095px) Image search: [Google]

142KB, 730x1095px

Feedback requested on these stats for pic related, from Mortis Ghost's OFF.

https://pastebin.com/1bRKa3iK

>>53721251
I'm not from an abrahamic religious background and it's one of the reasons why I couldn't get into the fluff of masquerade. I simply had no idea about what they were referencing. The other reason of course is that it's fucking stupid.

>>53721139
Yeah, the constant nosebleeds and cheap chav look are just...blegh. There's a reason we've been mocking them from their release.

>All changeling fluff talks about true fae having no sense of right or wrong and being amoral
>still never depicts them in any way other than 'relentlessly cruel psychopaths who never do anything other than evil'
>'oh but sometimes they fuck you so they're not ALL bad'
I mean would it be possible (in a motivation way, not a mechanics way) for a true fae to give his changeling servants access to the hedge/mortal world? Like, if he was certain they would be loyal to his 'cause' and got more pleasure out of watching them interact with a world NOT entirely under his control?

>>53722090
I never liked to define the Gentry as anything. They're not good or bad in my mind.

Just so alien that we by default label them as monstrosities obsessed with living narrative.

>>53722090
That's literally what Loyalists are.
In 2e AFAIK they're Changelings without a Seeming.

>>53722258
You'd think that but they seem to go out of their way to only portray loyalists who are basically just privateers with a gentry fetish. What about a loyalist who goes to goblin markets on his master's behalf or the loyalist who keeps the trods his master favors nice and trimmed?

>>53721062
So at best the mechanics might be better than the steaming pile of shit we normally have to work with but the plots retarded so ignore it.

File: Syndicate.png (21KB, 252x292px) Image search: [Google]

21KB, 252x292px

This is how I Syndicate.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULeDlxa3gyc

File: Syndicate Morality.jpg (39KB, 730x384px) Image search: [Google]

39KB, 730x384px

>>53722590

File: 1492554844693.png (424KB, 884x960px) Image search: [Google]

424KB, 884x960px

>>53722590

>>53719210
There is a book for it too. Course its for the 1st ed stuff so some things would neef to be homebrew.

File: My melanin enriched brethren.jpg (28KB, 680x383px) Image search: [Google]

28KB, 680x383px

>>53722590

What would happen if you used temporal summoning to summon a Mage from before awakening?

Would they be a sleeper for the duration of the spell?

>>53722935
It would cause a time paradox. Followed by a Paradox as the summoned being is indeed a sleeper and want to know what just happened.

>>53722969
not in 2e awakening it wont. and the answer is no "The spell does have limits, however; it cannot bring the
dead back to life or undo transformation into supernatural beings,
though it still changes the subject physically - a vampire returned
to “childhood” becomes a vampiric child," So if you summoned a mage as a child, he'd be a child mage.

>>53722969
do you even read the books. dont comment on shit if you know nothing.

File: TheThing_All.jpg (1MB, 2048x996px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 2048x996px

>Players going to very isolated location next game
>Thinking about introducing the Thing as a Nephandus who went Marauder.

On a scale of 1 to "Oh by the One no!" how good of an idea is this and how fucked are my players? Assume it works exactly like it does in the movie.

File: Diana_Cavendish_anime_series.png (118KB, 289x318px) Image search: [Google]

118KB, 289x318px

I want to play Diana. Would she be Thyrsus Silver Ladder?

>>53723332
Who?

>>53723332
>>53723409
That show about the lesbian magic users.

No the other one.

No the other one.

No the other one.

That's it.

>>53723417
After extensive research on google Rule34.

Definitely a Silver Ladder in terms of personality.

She appears to be an Obrimos master of prime with adept understanding of matter, forces, and life and apprentice level skill with time.

Respectable but nothing exceptional in terms of power.

Imperial Mysteries speaks of 'sponsors' looking out for the relative splats. Essentially god-tier beings of similar power (more or less) comparable to Archmages and perhaps Ascendants.

There are given examples for the various gamelines such as Luna for werewolves and the Gentry (Old Gods of the Thistle)for changelings.

Who or what would be the sponsor for vampires? Nothing is mentioned about it.

>>53717929
>Because they hired a shitty avante-garde art director. Everything except the Brujah looks awful, and the Brujah look like fucking hipsters.

it's edgy thematic art you dumb cunt stop judging the whole line based on one image in a slideshow

>>53723938
Archmage of Death. Before he became an Archmage vampires didn't exist, they were just fiction.

He made them real because he thought they were cool.

>>53723938
Imperial Mysteries had a small passage mentioning a rumor that Archmages of Death were responsible for the curse of Vampirism.
Archmages are also powerful enough to create sponsors themselves, having possibly produced the God Machine itself.

Legitimate deities and imperial wizards antagonizing one another over their represented Templates is one of my favorite aspects of the setting in Awakening, scarce though it is.

Gods seem to be jealous/biased regarding their splats for some reason.

>>53723938

My head canon is that Vampire's don't have sponsors. At least not directly.

When The Psychopomp enshrined him/her/itself into the supernal causing the fear of death and fucking up the afterlife/underworld. This hubris crippled the collective soul of humanity. Vampirism is thus the ultimate expression of the fear of death and the beast is the purified expression of humanities mutilation.

You can't delete vampires from reality because it's man that's flawed they're the symptom not the disease.

>>53724167
While I like your theory weren't vampires up and running before Exarchs ascended?

Myself I'm running with a "reverse dog" theory: modern day vampires are effect of multiple species of monsters mixing with each other.

>>53724345
How would you know?

>>53724345
Pre-Fall Earth would have been a much MUCH different place than current times.

Mages were also a lot more powerful back then.

>>53724486
For one, there were no paths.

>>53724486
Were they? I would have to take a look at rules for mages in pangean chapter of dark eras. Or was fall of pangea after exarchs ascended and I'm confusing things?

>>53724486
Dave described Atlantean mages as "mini archmages" having all ten Arcana as Ruling
The Paths did not exist during their height.

One only has to wonder how much more powerful actual archmages were.

>>53724546
I wonder what would replace Paradox dice with overreach?
Your spell exploding with Supernal potential because you're trying to spread your Imago wider than you really know how to?

>>53724546
>One only has to wonder how much more powerful actual archmages were.

Well, they DID storm heaven en masse

And won.

>>53724560
>Your spell exploding with Supernal potential because you're trying to spread your Imago wider than you really know how to?

Overreaching indeed!
Too powerful for your own good.

Weren't there a bunch of lesser Atlanteanesque civilizations as well? Not just the prime example.

Arthurian Britain was mighty magical before Merlin let it play out its fall.

>>53724633
Even if there were, there would be no way to actually know.
The concept of Atlantis was (spottily) removed from reality with the Fall.

>>53724633
Civilizations have blipped out of existence. One of them being Arthurian Britain.
It was a 'just as planned' example of Archmage dickery. Old man Merlin being the culprit.

Only one of these lost civilizations screwed the world entirely enough for the Abyss to form.
The very same culture responsible for constructing the Celestial Ladder and depriving the Supernal of its previous rulers, enthroning themselves as symbols of oppression.

>>53722396
I'm looking forward to at least the Hunger mechanic, and I'm going to try the 'one roll' combat. More info on the one roll combat came out of a playtester, which is essentially an attacker rolls/defender rolls/highest successes do damage or avoid damage. IE: You can defend with Physical + Dodge, OR you can defend with, say, Physical + Melee + Weapon against an attack, and if your successes are more you inflict damage back, in a kind of 'one shot exchange' thing. It's like the old LARP rules, but it's simple and easy to use.

>>53723940
Until they show us something else, that's all we have to judge it on. Hell, the art for the werewolf CRPG, the werewolves are extremely different as well, and all the monsters are shit from Silent Hill or Persona worse (like the giant man-eating vagina monster)

>>53725566
>Until they show us something else, that's all we have to judge it on.

Could try judging the system and metaplot instead, eh?

>>53725718
Okay.
I like the mechanical changes that we've seen so far; the using WP to buy a success OR reroll all failed dice is really cool. I like the Hunger mechanics, and am looking forward to see how different ages/Generations of vampire handle hunger (IE: if a 8th Generation has more spaces for 'hunger' than a 13th Generation). In general, I find the mechanical changes to be worth watching, though I think an offense/defense attribute (reducing to 6) rather than just Physical/Social/Mental might be better.
The metaplot I'm roughly okay with; I'll have to see how some things are executed, but the 'paranoid vampires closing off themselves' and less focus on Elder bullshit is going to be a nice change. I don't like that there was implication that Mages were involved in starting up the Second Inquisition.

Slow morning.

I posted this once before, but I feel it relevant to post again.

https://teylen.wordpress.com/2017/06/06/v5-playtest-impressions/

More stuff from the playtest.

>>53723183

What splat, if any, are your PCs?

How do I disarm a person and whack them with their own weapon without having to spend a shitton of experience on both melee and brawl? It's pretty stupid that I have to do that.

File: IMG_0431.jpg (231KB, 590x355px) Image search: [Google]

231KB, 590x355px

Any general consensus opinion on enjoyable encounters old versus new WoD. My gf wants to run a campaign and new books didn't really inspire me. Comfort me internet friends.

>>53721557
This book already exists and it's by Carlton Mellick III

>>53727657
nWoD has more intuitive mechanics.
oWoD has a metaplot, instead of just being "daily life of a supernatural critter."

>>53724506
Pangea is after the Exarchs ascended

>>53727765

I'm not seeing "Assferatu" in his bibliography. But in all honesty, I got the idea from an old Jhonen Vasquez comic.

Other works include "Yiffpocalypse" - A story of shapeshifting furry terrorists fighting the Pisstex corporation, "Wight Club" a mash up of Wraith and Fight Club, and "The D.P. Loveshaft Cycle," a series of short stories that are a part of the "Hexploitation" series.

>>53728353
On tbe subject of Jhonen Vasquez. What would his various protagonists be in CofD

>>53724560

The weirdest things might simply be that there isn't such a thing as overreach.

Now, of course, that COULD mean that the Mages have unlimited Paradox-free Reach, which, yeah, possible, but boring.

The alternative is that Mages can't overreach at all; they're trapped within the limits of their knowledge. That has some really, really interesting implications about the Abyss and just what it means.

>>53724506

As >>53728301 pointed out, Pangaea came after the Exarchial Ascension (as much as anything can be said to be "after" a time that never happened in a place that never existed), but it is worth noting that Mages WERE more powerful in the Stone Age than today.

Mages, for example, come out of their Awakenings with an extra dot in a Resistance attribute compared to modern ones. Awakenings were also more common and, frequently, far more brutal than they are today (Awakenings are common enough in the Pangaean times that most villages seem to have their own Wise or even a circle of them, and those are just the survivors; Awakening isn't merely a "Awaken or remain a Sleeper" thing for them. You Awaken or die.).

And on top of that, magic flows a lot more freely. The Wise can use Environment Yantras for natural places to far better effect; they can call upon the symbolism of gods that are real and present and seemingly benevolent, and bargain with other gods for Patron Yantras; they can rely on Sleepwalkers who fashion very powerful clay pottery Yantras for them.

Magic really has gotten weaker over time.

>>53728737
Now this is all interesting info I will have to read up. Why did the magic got weaker? Is this because of Exarchs medling with the fallen world and widening of the Abyss?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEi7nQbNDog

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tr_KVNrxtRI

Man, I really wish CCP hadn't botched the making of this game.

>>53728899
The pain is massively real.

>>53728861

The answer to that is "It's a Mystery!"

The Guardians blame it on Paradox; the collective weight of Mages' moral failings widening the Abyss. The Silver Ladder and Arrow don't appear to have a commonly accepted response, assuming they even know it's happening. The Mysterium sees it as a kind of entropy, caused by rising collective misapprehension and ignorance.

A thing I find tantalizing is that the Watchtowers grow as well. There aren't Watchtowers in the Pangaean Era. Yes, there's things calling Mages to write their names upon them (I think the Moros one is the Jade Tablet), but they're nowhere near as impressive as they will become. The Bloody Stone that Thyrsus sign their names to is literally in a cavern, but it's growing and has grown; from a small cairn to a rising boulder that threatens to break the cavern's ceiling and rise into the sky above.

Character Concept:

Sham-Man. Syndicate operative. This character specialized in creating and marketing new-age personas designed to discredit the occult in the eyes of anyone who isn't a "lost cause," and make money off people who are by selling them total bullshit.

Tradition Mages who try to eliminate his pawns one way or another find that they and their entourage are actually conditioned sleepers trained in the use of Mind and Forces Hypertech.

>>53729031
Making money on people's gullibility, AND defaming the Reality Deviants while doing so. That's the most Syndicate thing I've heard in years. Do it.

>>53728899
This is just sad this is. Also love the artwork and style of the first trailer.

>>53728948
Nice. I hear there are things like 6th Watchtower and tremere if I remember talk about something called "final watchtower". Can watchtowers grow on their own or be created by mages?

>>53729223
>Can watchtowers grow on their own or be created by mages
Yes, in Imperial Mysteries "make your own watchtower" can be one of the goals your character has. Its a five dot, "Supreme" Celestial Omen.

>>53727521
Grapple then control weapon in 2e

>>53723938
I don't think those are actually who they're talking about. I think there supposed to be someone active, right now, not just some random powerful being associated with the splat.
Nothing is mentioned for any of them, you're supposed to fill it in yourself. It could just be an archmage who thinks vampires need to stay around for some reason, some random super special powerful vampire, or something else entirely. Maybe the vampiric curse is a sort of dead symbol in the supernal itself, one that can't be changed or altered.

>>53729283
Dildo shaped?

>>53729309
No details are given. That being said, once you commit to making it, you have to do it if you want to Ascend. So if you don't mind being a Supernal symbol of immaturity, go for it.

>>53729339
Bro, Exarch of Fratboys

>>53729294
Don't I still need Melee to hit them?

>>53729223

The Sixth and Seventh Watchtowers Tremere legends, one of which may be some kind of Annunaku.

Actually creating a new Watchtower is an example of something an Archmaster might do to Ascend.

>>53729482
The fact your saying melee suggests to me your using oWoD?

In 2e nWod the roll is Str + Brawl - Defense to grab, then a contested Str + Brawl vs str + Brawl

>>53729378
>Fratxarch

>>53725767

I agree with almost everything you said, actually. I also think reducing 9 attributes to 3 might be overkill, and think 6 woulda been the sweet spot.

Character Concept:

Martial Scientist. Progenitor field operative. Applies scientific and medical knowledge to martial arts in order to debunk Akashics in a rather humiliating matter. You've seen those "Traditional vs modern" vids on youtube where the mystic gets their ass kicked? The first ones were his work, and the sleepers followed suit.

He's convinced that Bruce Lee was one of the first "Action Scientists" of his convention and that either the Akashics or the Syndicate had him killed.

>>53729378
In his name we chug.

>>53730451
shit

>>53730497

Can't win em all, I guess.

>>53721557
>>53729031
>>53730451

Of the three so far, I'm leaning towards the Bizarre Lit writer as the one I'm most interested in playing.

Character concept:

Mr Papilion, Son of Ether.

His whole shtick is the butterfly effect. He mathematically models what seemingly irrelevant events need to occur for any desired outcome to happen, and runs around trying to set things in motion. Fast-casting comes down to guesswork and improvisation.

These antics have alienated his sleeping relatives, who refuse to see his genius.

I want to play a traditional beefy donut-eating cop or detective in CofD. What should my stats/skills/traits look like?

So one thing Brucato got right in M20 - HAP is now canon. The entire concept of "Copperfielding" suggested it beforehand.

>>53731488
What is HAP?

>>53731570

Hypothetical Average Person. It was one of two competing fan models foe how magic worked in OMage - That if it doesn't look impossible, it's coincidental.

NMage first edition used HOP - Hypothetical Omniscient Person.

>>53731488
Wasn't he on that side of the argument in the first place? I remember reading a post by a writer ages ago that suggested that HAP was how they preferred to adjudicate those disputes.

>>53731629

Honestly, almost all of the fluff heavily implied HAP.

RBD V PBD I always handled by giving bonuses for PBD effects.

File: rocketeer_poster_by_kopetkai-d4hupox.jpg (246KB, 663x1024px) Image search: [Google]

246KB, 663x1024px

>>53731611
I just googled it, and ah. That is how I run oMage, mostly. That is, similar to that. The actual way I do it is

"If any of the people viewing the act believe its impossible, not merely unlikely, this causes Paradox."

Vulgar w/o witnesses doesn't exist in my games, and I'm extremely generous with what Etherites/Technocrats can get away with under the guise of "Modern people are willing to believe super-science is possible, merely incredible." In exchange, I make it where 99% of the Effects used by both those groups have to be written down ahead of time as inventions or machines they're actually carrying on them. Basically limiting creative-casting in exchange for a blank check to ignore Paradox on all but the most ridiculous of inventions.

For instance, in my game a jetpack and a ray-gun would both be completely Coincidental, but the mage who made them would have to write down ahead of time that he was carrying a ray gun and jetpack, and what Effects they could perform with them.

Obviously I ignore "foci". What these rules mean in practice is that my group almost never does Coincidental magic, instead they just try and do all their magic out of view of the masses.

Isn't Professional Training kind of busted?

>>53732064
It rewards you for sticking to a theme, near all of second edition is built around similar carrots to stick to character and dramatic moments.

>>53731716

I don't go that far, but I make paradox a risk rather than a certainty. But the thing about OMage is that hard and fast rules aren't something you should depend on. Putting in the PBD work just makes it less likely.

>>53732783
Well my thought is that Paradox is supposed to punish Mages who work the ridiculous in full view of those who disbelieve it. It should be a kind of natural law, a rubberband effect. That's also why Paradox Spirits don't exist in my games.

Instead, the thing that 'polices' Mages beyond simply Paradox is the Technocracy itself. I like the end result, where PCs don't hesitate to do impossible feats but do all such feats out of public view, in the dark of night and back alleyways.

>>53733004
It's also supposed to be a manifestation of how the Consensus is an actual oppressive thing, which eventually starts to influence Magic even when nobody's around to see it.

Ditching that kinda takes the Ascension War off of the boiler.

>>53733108
Not really, it just means the war for reality is a war focused on the mass-reality. Mages can't work the impossible in view of mortals because the masses Paradigm forbids it.

I've always hated things that make it seem like "The Consensus" is something that came into being at one point, instead of just being the natural metaphysic of the setting. The Technocrats taking over shouldn't suddenly change how the universe operates.

It should be entirely possible to imagine an alternate future where the Akashics took over instead and every paradigm except Akashic was vulgar, and a different Tradition Council was fighting off Imperial China's chokehold on reality.

>investigate some fucked up, "impossible" murders
>turns out a bunch of humans did it
Man really is the monster.

>>53733188

Here's how I pitch it. The consensus always was a thing in one form or another, but the Order of Reason and it's predecessors decided to study cosmological constants like gravity, evolution, human nature, etc and work with them rather than just ignoring them like the Traditions' forerunners did.

That framework is part of why they have an advantage in getting new shit into the consensus, but it's also why they can't just say "fuck it" and throw a fireball at a bitch.

>>53728737
>>53728948
Magical cultures keep popping up and blipping out of existence though. Would it not be possible to make magic great again like Atlantis?

If not, it really feels as though the Abyss is to blame for the slow decline of Mage supremacy.

Thanks a lot Atlantis.......

>>53733320
I forget, was hitler ever linked to some weird supernatural stuff or was he just a regular awful dude?

>>53733350
>Thanks a lot Atlantis.......

Perhaps the weakening of magic is a failsafe conducted by the old Atlantean wizard-kings (now Exarchs) in their bid to prevent new Awakenings after their own forced Ascension.

The Oracles would seem more desperate now than ever if this were the case.
Maybe the Watchtowers will eventually fail to function after a certain point despite being hardcoded in the blueprints of reality.

>3 dots is detective
>4 dots is sergeant
>5 dots is fucking chief of police
Well, that escalated quickly.

File: Merlinmanga.jpg (272KB, 558x680px) Image search: [Google]

272KB, 558x680px

>>53733333
That is completely ridiculous, because every single one of those things is PART of the Consensus. The Technocrats did not DISCOVER gravity, they INVENTED it. They didn't discover evolution, they made it up.

The entire appeal of the Mage metaphysic is that reality is defined by the beliefs of those within reality, the reason the Technocrats took power is because they managed to appeal to the Sleepers and they rose to prominence during the times when "Consensual Reality" was discovered to be a real thing.

We shouldn't even be speaking of "The Consensus" as some kind of construct, its just a description of how physics works in oMage.

Back in 4000 BC the world was flat, the heavenly bodies were floating above the firmament, dragons were real and gods walked the earth.

Back in 1000 AD, the world was the center of Creation, and the sun orbited around it, and wizards performed miracles in full view of the populace.

In 2017 AD, the modern day miracle-workers have created iPhones and airplanes by convincing the masses that the universe operates on laws that allow for applications such as iPhones and airplanes.

There is nothing new under the sun, the fundamentals of the cosmos hasn't changed, only the people running it have. Hermetics aren't living in a cosmic prison, they're just living in the natural outcome of a world that doesn't believe in Hermeticism.

>>53733350
Until the Exarchs take your perfect society and throw it into the Abyss, because they want to rule a flawed, shitty world.

>>53731204
There's a stat block for a beat cop in Chronicles of Darkness core. It's in the antagonists section.

>>53733526
>>53733476
>>53733350
We should build a wall around the Abyss.

File: Atlantis.gif (108KB, 640x1273px) Image search: [Google]

108KB, 640x1273px

So pre-Fall magic kept getting stronger and stronger eventually having Atlantis and its inhabitants overpowering actual gods and dethroning them with themselves.

Then we get post-Fall where magic is dumbed down over time with no reason to give. It completely flipped to the opposite. From lesser-to-greater to greater-to-lesser.

Awakening is starting to feel really depressing. Not a bad thing. Just makes me sad that magic is slowing down.

>>53733546
And make the Annunaki pay for it!

>>53733561
While the fact that Magic has been weakening was spread throughout 1e and the Order books...

Was it ever actually stated in 2e?

>>53733531
Not enough for a player. Also
>dexterity 4
Clearly not beefy enough.

>>53733500
Where is this? Detectives don't 'outrank' patrol in my state department.

>>53733411
Hitler was a human hero.
Too bad he failed and it led directly to the creation of Israel.

>>53733596
Page 55, sidebar of the Status merit.

>>53731611
That's because NMage's paradox/magic wasn't based on believability by the average person. REALITY ITSELF would reject extraordinarily fantastical things, because in 1e NMage you're overwriting the laws of the Fallen World with the laws of the Supernal Realms, and it's like two sections of pipe that don't fit together and they rub badly.

File: Archmage Trump.jpg (41KB, 428x321px) Image search: [Google]

41KB, 428x321px

>>53733546
>>53733563

I concur

File: wrong.png (244KB, 728x745px) Image search: [Google]

244KB, 728x745px

>>53733522

No, there are in fact cosmological constants. What goes up always came down, the sun followed a rotational cycle, and life changes over time as a result of natural selection.

Even in the mythic age, these things were true. Of course, you could magic your way around them a lot easier

>>53733561
All the world of darkness games have always been super depressing. Day one of the oWoD lines was the world is ending and there is nothing you can do to stop it

>>53733592
I doesn't necessarily mean you can do an olympic ring routine. And practically speaking you want as much Dexterity as possible for a mortal since guns>>everything else.

File: Hillary.jpg (163KB, 956x598px) Image search: [Google]

163KB, 956x598px

>>53733649
But can Archmage Trump combat the Abyssal monstrosity that is Hillary Clinton?

>>53722396
Come on, anon. It's oWoD, the plot was always retarded.

>>53722396
>So at best the mechanics might be better than the steaming pile of shit we normally have to work with
I wouldn't count on it. They've been fucking it up for decades.

>>53733522
The Consensus has never reached beyond the asteroid belt. The world back then was flat, but the sun didn't revolve around it.

Beyond the Consensus is a nightmare of infinite possibilities.

>>53733607
That's goofy.

I'd do something like Sergeant at two dots, Lt. at three dots, Captain at four.

>>53733738
It's normally retarded but with enough cool to pull it off. This just looks like a trainwreck.

>>53733772
>>53733658
Not remotely how it works. You drank the Technocrat kool-aid.

>>53733774
I'd do Sergeant at three, Captain at four, Chief at 5.

>>53733772
Why does reality still operate under observable laws of physical though, even though the vast majority of people in the world have no idea about them?

Also at what point did the planet suffer a complete and total geological upheaval, causing it to warp into a sphere?

Your suggestion is less reasonable or apt than considering that the Consensus merely warps a base reality "template".
It also doesn't explain why certain mass-misconceptions aren't reality.

>>53733810
No. It's canon that the Consensus hasn't reached beyond that point.

Everything within it is good to go for reality deviants. Flat earth having been an actual thing in both OMage and Wraith.

>>53733810

No, you drank the Tradition kool-aid.

File: M20 Coincidence.jpg (419KB, 694x923px) Image search: [Google]

419KB, 694x923px

Ascension was truly groundbreaking for its time, and a great inspiration for many works, but it was a ttrpg abomination.

Even with benefit of 20+ years to try to fix, it's still hopeless (and assigning M20 to Douche Phil only made things worse.

>Abomination jpg I

>>53733826
The planet started off as a sphere, silly. Humans weren't the original inhabitants. Laws predate reality shenanigans.

Except when it comes to the Deep Umbra. Nothing makes sense out there the further you go.

File: M20 Coincidence-2.jpg (249KB, 680x603px) Image search: [Google]

249KB, 680x603px

>>53733857

>Abomination jpg II

>>53733830
1. I was talking more to the guy who thinks evolution and gravity were always real.

2. Not entirely true. Human belief has influenced the formation of certain Umbroods and their realms. Of course this is just for the canon base setting. In my game I throw out ALL the cosmological constants and limitations and just have the setting work entirely on consensual reality.

>>53733826
Anything within the Consensus is mutable based on the dominant Paradigm.

This is explicit. It doesn't matter whether the earth was originally flat or spherical. Both have happened.

>>53733561

One of the darker theme's of awakening is just how insignificant you are. Doesn't matter if you're a 6th degree archmaster you're a speck compared to the true power of the supernal.

Ascension maybe the only way to have some significance but it's also the destruction of your individuality.

Idea for a CoD antagonist: a Lich-like Horror with the Immortal Dread Power, who used his extremely long lifespan to practice Thaumaturgy and get tons of Social Merits. He’d be a vaguely Mesoamerican blood sorcerer whose phylactery is an obsidian obelisk. He was asked with removing [insert splat you’re playing here] from the premises of the empire. Given the best occult knowledge mortals could buy, steal, or trade for, in that purpose. Now slowly biding his time to return it to the proper glory.

I'm imagining a capricious but cunning chess master type who likes to take his time when putting his master plans into motion. Pragmatic when needed, but makes a show of his power and brilliance when he thinks he can get away with it. The key to stopping him is subverting his influential Mystery Cult and sealing away his phylactery, but since he is Immortal and retains some of his powers even when sealed away, he can always just wait.

>>53733878
>>53733857
>Needing skill rolls for magic

Still pisses me off and is the number one rule to be ignored. Not every Mage is a fucking Hermetic, it makes no sense to need rational understanding [of the Technocratic paradigm!!!] for someone whose magic is powered by drugs to make a car.
>>53733826
>>53733862
No, the world was flat. The geological history of the world is a lie. And you're still thinking of reality in Technocratic terms of reason and science, both of which are just propaganda.

The reality is more quantum. There was a time in the past when the world was both a flat disk and a sphere based on where you were and who was observing it. It didn't suffer a complete and geological upheavel, because geology is just propaganda pushed by the Technocrats.

>>53733926
>Ascension maybe the only way to have some significance but it's also the destruction of your individuality.

But it's SO worth it.

File: Typical Batini.png (342KB, 900x635px) Image search: [Google]

342KB, 900x635px

>>53733878

Entropy really is the ultimate bullshit sphere

>>53733959

Is it, though?

>>53733958

This is the Tradition Kool-Aid. It's also why people think Mages can fuck with the Curse of Caine and the Metaphysical Trinity.

>>53733989
>It's also why people think Mages can fuck with the Curse of Caine

Only takes Prime 6

>>53733989
Masters of the Art can explicitly do both those things.

>>53734013
>>53734015

Did I say Arch-Mages?

>>53734013
>Entropy 4, Life 4, Matter 4, Prime 6

Fixed
Here's the actual Rote requirements

>>53733561
>No real reason
>Widening abyss
>Exarchs limiting magic you have access to

Hey retard, READ THE BOOK

>>53733989
>Is it, though?
What's the alternative, fiddle around in the muck before you die, your soul goes off to get reincarnated, your mind dissipates and possibly leaves a miserable Ghost in the Underworld?

I'd prefer eternal existence as a fundamental core concept of reality, thanks.
It's not like Ascended Mages can't influence and look down upon reality.
The Corpus Author does that all the time.

>>53734044
The weakening of magic is a Mystery, you dumb fuck. This is intentional. Calm your man boobs.

The closest we got to a legitimate answer was in 1e.

>>53734047

Sure, here's an alternative. Live forever.

>>53733958
>Not every Mage is a fucking Hermetic, it makes no sense to need rational understanding [of the Technocratic paradigm!!!] for someone whose magic is powered by drugs to make a car.


The Order of Hermes needs to ditch the poseurs, losers and beatniks of the Traditions and join the heroes of the Technocratic Union. Their combined might could wipe out unprecedented numbers of reality deviants and dirty hippies.

>>53734069
Living in the Supernal is beyond living forever. You are living concept.

You could potentially be the concept of immortality if you wanted.

>>53734034
Does it matter if you did? You were implying the metaphysics of Mage was flawed and there were cosmological constants they couldn't break or twist.

The reality is there isn't, and the fact that the strongest Mages [who unlike in Awakening are metaphysically EXACTLY THE SAME THING AS REGULAR MAGES] can do so proves it.

>>53734068
It's not a Mystery to anyone with a functional cortex. They straight up tell you.

>>53734069
Until you don't.
Only almost true immortality is Ascension.
Only thing that can knock an Ascended being out of the Supernal is another Mage's Ascension rite.

Meanwhile anyone with enough Sleepers and/or pre-Archmastery Magic can kill a "normal" immortal.

>>53734080
The Order of Hermes is underappreciated among the Traditions.

>Old mage
>Making sense
>Having any serious thought put into it
Stop trying

>>53734097
Ok, buddy.

>>53733943
Also, the current front for the Mystery Cult of this Lich: a sports team. The sports fans worship the team, who in turn, give the lich power (with rights to violent football hooligans as ritual blood sacrifices). A weird novelty team with a big, friendly skeleton as their mascot. Their team members eat fake hearts after a successful game... and in private, they eat actual hearts.

>>53734089
Archmages are not the same as Mages in Awakening. They meditate out of themselves to form bodily form.

They're more like entities than humans. Dave has mentioned this previously.

OWoD archmages are still human, unless they manage to evolve into Exemplars or become Celestines.

>>53734089

Exactly how many mages have prime 6 since the Avatar Storm?

>>53717842
>Reading V5 beta test
>Every roll is dif 6
>50/50 chance all around
Why use a d10 when you don{t have to adjust difficulty? Why not a d6? Why not flip a coin?

>>53734173
The Avatar Storm didn't kill off the Archmages. It blocked access to the Deep Umbra.

The vast majority of Archmages are forever (or nearly) locked off from the Consensus. They probably don't even care enough to find a way back, unlike Threat Null.

File: The Unnamed.png (105KB, 341x522px) Image search: [Google]

105KB, 341x522px

>>53734173
The strongest mage in canon acquired Prime 8 in the end.

He's also still on Earth.

>>53734178
Did they release a copy of the pre-alpha playtest for everyone, or are you just reading my cliff notes?

>>53734233
Possible canon, not "canon" canon.

Also hey, fuck that guy.

>>53734265
No, End Times are entirely canon and optional scenarios.

Future Fates being a thing in M20.

>>53734245
I guess from the playtester here
https://teylen.wordpress.com/2017/06/06/v5-playtest-impressions/
>The general principles are:
>The target number to beat will always be 6.
>The difficulty is defined by the minimum number of successes.
>The rule of one“ is gone, rolling a 1 on a d10 hasn’t got an effect.

>>53734233

The Unnamed only shows up in Hell on Earth though.

>>53734167
I remember that segment in the awakening 2e core it implies they're unkillable outside of their golden roads. It would be like a inverse astral journey. You could empty a gau/8 avenger cannon into an archmage and the only thing that would happen is that he'd reappear inside his own soul slightly annoyed.

>>53734306
He has shown up elsewhere. He's at his most powerful here in Hell on Earth.

Cracked the universe like an egg.

>>53734302
YEah; the only time a 1 is bad juju is if you have Hunger dice replacing normal dice, and 1s on those cause compulsions based on how many 1s come up.

Is there a mage character sheet with longer merit list? I've filled mine up already

>>53734376
Then why use a d10? what's even the point?
A d6 have the same 50/50 chance with 1,2,3, vs 4,5,6, and it even has a 1 for your hunger botches.

What can Presence do that Manipulation can't?

>>53734421

Because any WoD games to use d10s. It's its thing.

>>53734475
Be honest.

>>53734475
A magical dead glare and forcing even Elders to spend willpower to dislike you.

>>53734505
No, Manipulation can do that.

File: everything is wrong.png (74KB, 233x207px) Image search: [Google]

74KB, 233x207px

>>53734498
Is stupid to maintaining that in a system that is clearly not going to use it.
Is this just a ploy to sell those fancy red dices?

>>53734537
[Citation needed]

>>53734343
>he only thing that would happen is that he'd reappear inside his own soul slightly annoyed

... and planning his revenge, and all mages know, there are many fates far worse than death, particularly at the hands of an archmage.

>suicide by mage

>friends don't let friends attack mages

>>53734167
That's what I said.

>>53734505
>Be honest.

That's adorable, now play nice while the adults go do important things in the CofD.

>>53734551
It doesn't say anywhere that Manipulation can't be used for honesty. It doesn't say anywhere that Manipulation has to be used for lies either.

>>53734586
>Anyone doing anything important in WoD
We both know important things only ever happen in on the rails meta plot scenarios

>>53734545
I don't think I've rolled physical dice for any game line in like ten years. I just use a random number generator.

>>53734475
'Curousing' and 'Air of authority' apperently.
In new, presence is force and manipulation is finesse. So in theory anything that you need raw force of personality for.

>>53728387
Jthm: Slasher

What can Dominate do that Mind can't?

>>53734668
This doesn't answer my question for why a system will keep a d10 when is not having an adjusting difficulty that requires it.
Either the dice is of use to the system that requires it or you are asking people to use a type f dice for no reason.

>>53734680
Carousing is listed under Manipulation on page 42 of CofD core.

>>53734767
My only point is that I don't care what polyhedron I'm supposed to roll to generate numbers since I'm going to be doing it electronically.

>>53734705
Please I'm not Bruccato I have some sense of self respect.

>>53734764
>What can Dominate do that Mind can't?

Absolutely nothing.

>>53734764
Perform overt manipulation of Sleepers without the possibility of it exploding and summoning anti-reality Monsters.

>>53734796
Presence + socialize or streetwise on page 71

>>53734867
Can't really say anything about that.

>>53733857
>>53733878
These both seem perfectly, 100% reasonable.

>>53728387
Invader Zim could be a God-Machine Angel who was Exiled for being supremely incompetent and destructive but too loyal to Fall. GIR would be either a minor Angel or a Cryptid. Dib and Gaz are Stigmatics, which is why they are the only ones who ever bother to investigate Zim. Professor Membrane is a rare example of a successful Genius (possibly the Stigmatic version rather than the Major Template one). Miss Bitters could be a Charlatan Gentry or some weird Spirit of Despair and Discipline that is Fettered to the Skool.

>>53733958
>Not every Mage is a fucking Hermetic, it makes no sense to need rational understanding [of the Technocratic paradigm!!!] for someone whose magic is powered by drugs to make a car.

How exactly a one would justify a mage whose paradigm revolves around drugs be able to make a car appear from thin air?

>>53735212
>How exactly a one would justify a mage whose paradigm revolves around drugs be able to make a car appear from thin air?

Hermetics can do that too with a wave of their hand.

File: Ron_James.png (659KB, 1122x906px) Image search: [Google]

659KB, 1122x906px

>>53735212
How does he make molecules from thin air?
How does he make a sword from thin air?
How does he make a black fucking hole from mid-air?

The answer is that magic is willworking, not an applied science and he fucking wanted one. Magic Users in the WoD [both new and old] are not supposed to HAVE to be intelligent people who studied to get their powers.

Nothing pisses me off worse then when you take an extremely interesting concept like "Define your own reality" and you piss all over it by trying to make magick into magic. Willworking doesn't need the trappings of intellectualism or scholarship, and understanding a paradigm that isn't even real by your paradigm shouldn't factor into your ability to create effects. That is half the fun of Paradigm.

If an Etherite wants a car, he'd make a car using pseudoscientific principles.

If a Hermetic wanted a car, he may create an incantation that invokes certain spirits of transportation, or the Platonic Form of Automobiles, or use alchemical transmutation to generate the materials of a car in the shape of a car.

And if a member of the Cult of Ecstacy wants a car, sometimes he just gets really baked and wakes up in a ferrari and hell if he knows how he got it, but it runs on anti-matter and broken dreams, there's a girl he doesn't know in the backseat who he's pretty sure is a Changeling, and the license plate says "Matter 4 Bitches"

>>53735316

To be fair, the Hermetics blur the lines between 'art' and 'science' when it comes to magic.

>>53735316
>The answer is that magic is willworking, not an applied science and he fucking wanted one
This really depends on the Paradigm in question.

>Magic Users in the WoD [both new and old] are not supposed to HAVE to be intelligent people who studied to get their powers.
Absolutely false.

But also true.

File: Arete7.jpg (50KB, 622x415px) Image search: [Google]

50KB, 622x415px

>>53735371
Mages don't HAVE to be smart people. Your Arete has nothing to do with any of your mental stats. Or your social ones for that matter.

The point is that magick is applying your will to reality. Its not rocket science, except when it is. The demand that you have ranks in Abilities that represent knowledge of the Technocratic paradigm in order to create Effects is stupid.

Its like demanding ranks in Medicine in order to use Life to heal somebody. Its like nigger I am healing him by realigning his chi, cellular biology doesn't even exist according to me, why do I need to know it.

The answer is I don't, and whoever wrote M20 is a fucking moron.

>>53735316
>Willworking doesn't need the trappings of intellectualism or scholarship

The Order of Hermes disagrees with such an assessment.

>>53735452
Yeah, but that's their prerogative.
Even Hermetics acknowledge that you can do Magick without a focus.
It's just much, much harder.

>>53735426
>The point is that magick is applying your will to reality. Its not rocket science, except when it is.

Again. This really factors heavily on the faction and its Paradigm in question. The Hermetics for instance have an art, science & willpower view of magic(k). A systematic magical science, if you will.

The Verbena likewise just don't. Have sex in the woods drenched in the blood of goats n' virgins isn't an art or a science. It just isn't.

>>53735525
I'm honestly surprised that the Hermetics aren't more powerful because of this.
Their Paradigm/Focus is so fucking broad. Magic to them (as you said) is a science, an art and the act of rising above even that.

They're canonically (having codified the Spheres and producing the most archmages as examples) the strongest Tradition, but still.
They even incorporate other beliefs into their own. They're not biased (at least regarding outside sources)enough to ditch potential knowledge. Entirely pragmatic.

>>53735316

Yeah no, there are thing you cant do with certain paradigms. Make a car from thin air with matter on a drug induced paradigm is one of those

>>53734764
Dominate's easier to get. I mean mind does more but dominate is just as powerful in a much narrow scope. Personally I like majesty better.

>>53723183

Why not just Tzemice?

>>53734764
It doesn't matter because they're different games w/ different themes, scope, and play styles.

>>53735426

The counterbalance is the the technocracy does need that knowledge to make their effect covert. They are the dominant paradigm.

While i wouldnt require a pc to do a skill check for everysingle spell. How a character that heals through chi do so without a single dot in occultism

>>53735764
Why not? The dude has sufficient Matter proficiency, and he's spending the time to do a ritual hallucinating the vehicle into existence, likely requiring Matter 4, Prime 2 to generate a car out of quintessential potential, summoned from his waking dreams.

Sounds fine and fair to me.
I mean Christ, the dude's sunk 4 dots into Matter.
It's not like he couldn't attempt to do so without foci.

If you restrict shit that much, then you're basically encouraging people never to play a more "out there" Tradition, as they'll never really be able to do anything more than the most stereotypical bullshit.

>>53735316

>The answer is that magic is willworking, not an applied science and he fucking wanted one. Magic Users in the WoD [both new and old] are not supposed to HAVE to be intelligent people who studied to get their powers.

Which is why masters of the art's fluff is bulldoodoo

And another thing that was bullshit in Omage was the whole "Everything is one, maaaaaan" shit that still stinks up Space in nmage

>>53735371

I don't get this from the new game too much.

>>53735816

Space.correspondence says it's all one, maaaaaan.

>>53735764

Those "things you can't do" are "things you can't make fit." I'd let him do it, but the Changeling? Well, thereby hangs a tale.

>>53735942

Thats a very fringe case that implies that while that player keep sunking dots in matter i, the dm in this scenario, didnt ever question the logic of his paradigm and matter.

If you said his paradigm function through induced sleep and manifesting the objects there into reality with matter. Sure but thats not the same as "i get high and car appears"

>>53736281
>And if a member of the Cult of Ecstacy wants a car, sometimes he just gets really baked and wakes up in a ferrari and hell if he knows how he got it, but it runs on anti-matter and broken dreams, there's a girl he doesn't know in the backseat who he's pretty sure is a Changeling, and the license plate says "Matter 4 Bitches"

That's not evocative enough for you?

>>53736281
Yeah, but ultimately such reductional portrayal of foci is only going to result in a negative perception of how they work.

It's like saying for Hermetics "it works because I do the magic-math", or for the union "it works because I plug the re-de-carborator into the quasi-nuclear doodlefluffer to rejiggify his string field".

There's almost always a way to make your paradigm work for a spell, and knee-jerk reactions aren't going to help anyway.

>>53736318

Honestly i would says that more entropy and time than matter. Like that spell from the hollow ones that makes a bus arrives as soon as you finish a smoke.

>>53736320

Honestly I could see any tradition but the Verbena magicking up a car. For a Tradition focused on life growth death rebirth, they sure have a static paradigm.

I may be in the running to join a group for a CoD campaign. Since I'm new to this system I'm thinking I'll play a normie who's relatively new to the supernatural themselves (so I'm expected to know less).
I don't really have a concept other than a Atariya though, since their mechanics seem fun. Furthermore I'm worried about fitting in alongside a vampire, a psychic detective, and a guy with benedictions.
What do?

>>53736320

Ymmv i tend to favor restrictive paradigms in my games. And yes you can fit lots of effects with them but the cryomancer who is elsa the snow queen isnt gonna be making cars appear anytime soon.

>>53736383

Don't tell me what my paradigm is, bitch.

When will people realize that Mage is an Absurdist game in either version?

>>53736368

Question: Why hasn't the VaSCU guy locked up the Catachism Killer after he ashes his third vampire?

>>53736005
Magic is easily an applied science depending on Paradigm. Just look at the Order of Hermes.

Masters of the Art was also a necessary supplement.

>>53736595
>Masters of the Art was also a necessary supplement.

Shut up

>>53736709
>>53736595

It was necessary. It just wasn't good.

>depending on Paradigm

But MotA presumes all paradigms work through study. It also presumes a mage's reason for seeking the archspheres is one that will prevent ascension

>>53736595
>Masters of the Art was also a necessary supplement.

And entire supplement because of a typo

File: 1477102665999.jpg (119KB, 1400x700px) Image search: [Google]

119KB, 1400x700px

Just got done watching Hellraiser 1-3 for the first time, never having found the time.

They were surprisingly disappointing, though Pinhead was relatively interesting, and had a cool voice and lines. I was sad that Kirsty never got naked either.

>>53736840
>But MotA presumes all paradigms work through study.

Because they do? Each Paradigm utilizes different methods, yes. But it isn't an easy thing.

>>53736840
>seeking the archspheres is one that will prevent ascension
In the end the desire for more power prevents one from obtaining more power.

Makes sense to me.

>>53736547
No idea what you're on about. I did say I was new to the system.

>>53736840
Becoming a powerful mage isn't a matter of ease.
Paradigm only determines how you go about doing so.

You're going to study hard regardless. Whether it be the rigid occult sciences of the Hermetics or the inner indulgences of the Cultists of Ecstasy.

>>53736923

You thought the power was my goal, not a means to an end, or a consequence of what I was actually seeking?

>>53736894
>>53736979

Not if I work through an Intuitive paradigm.

>>53737096
Doesn't matter. Learning is mandatory. The methods always being different.

True intuition also comes after ditching Foci.

>>53737096
That's not how it works.
No matter your Paradigm you will always need to grow via experience.

You can't just skip steps.

>>53737096
Hermetics are very intuitive, yet they still demand study. Intuition can also only go so far until you still discarding instruments.

From intricate time consuming high-ritual to merely gesturing a building to combust in blue flame. The Order of Hermes has it all.

File: HarryDresden.png (254KB, 583x394px) Image search: [Google]

254KB, 583x394px

What would pic related's stats look like in Ascension and Awakening?

File: afdfsdf.jpg (60KB, 1280x720px) Image search: [Google]

60KB, 1280x720px

>>53737170
>>53737096
>>53736979
>>53737096
You don't have to study hard to become a powerful Mage. Period, end of story.

The characteristics that enhance one's Arete and Sphere 'knowledge' varies extremely by Paradigm and has nothing to do with mundane Abilities except when it happens to intersect with those Abilities.

An Akashic develops his powers by exercise, meditation, and insight.

A Hermetic through study, intuition, and self-mastery.

A Chorister through increasing virtue, faith, and sometimes theological knowledge.

A Cult of Ecstasy through reaching ever deeper into pleasure and ecstasy.

And so on and so on. Increasing Arete is about increasing your ability to influence reality through willworking, it has NOTHING to do with scholarship, erudition, or mundane characteristics unless you happen to be one of the paradigms that embraces such a thing.

Also paradigm should never be restrictive, its a note to stay in theme not a straitjacket for concepts. Spheres are the mechanical measure of your abilities, paradigm is just a note to remember to roleplay. All this shit about needing Abilities and trying to say you need four Spheres for common Effects in M20 is half the reason its utter shit. The other half is cooking recipes.

>>53737496

Did you even bother to read the previous posts?

>>53737554
Yes, but given they were stupid-ass posts I elected to ignore them.

>>53737496
>You don't have to study hard to become a powerful Mage. Period, end of story.
Masters of the Art and Horizon: Stronghold of Hope strongly disagrees with you.
Though naturally this depends on Paradigm.

>An Akashic develops his powers by exercise, meditation, and insight.
>A Hermetic through study, intuition, and self-mastery.
>A Chorister through increasing virtue, faith, and sometimes theological knowledge.
>A Cult of Ecstasy through reaching ever deeper into pleasure and ecstasy.
All of this entails study in some way shape or form. Be it academic or physical improvement, faith or pleasure. It doesn't matter.

>>53737582

Why even post if you're going to be a bigot?

>>53737496
Why are you arguing with people who basically already agree with what you said, for the most part?

>>53737582
Never mind. You don't read.

>>53737590

Perhaps he shouldn't have used the word "study"

>>53737422
An Obrimos Silver Ladder w/ middling wisdom and strong ethics.

>>53737664
Shit I meant adamantine arrow.

>>53737664
>>53737685
Agreed. But what Arcana does he have? Forces 4 is a given, but what else?

>>53737736
He's definitely deficient in Life magic. It's been a while since I've read the books but I estimate he's something like forces 4-5, prime 2+, mind 2, fate 3, matter 3, space 2, time 1, spirit 2, death 2.

He's extremely versatile and potent with his magic but lacking nuance and control.

>>53733546
>>53733649
Don't Supernal spells need to travel through the Abyss to get to the Fallen World? You'll be cutting off the world from magic, new Awakening, and Archmage applications.

File: cJDLr7M.jpg (1B, 486x500px)

1B, 486x500px

>>53737654
>>53737590
>Working out is studying
>Meditation is studying
>Prayer is studying
>Fapping and getting high is studying

>>53737846
You are fake news.

>>53737859
Everything is technically studying. Life is experience.

Have you never studied basic masturbation?

>>53737869
He probably can't find his penis

>>53737859
I was forced to study the glory of Jesus as a kid because Christianity sucks and God is a whore.

New age retards study meditation all the time.

You also don't become prime tier bodybuilders by being an idiot. Assuming you don't cheat. Oh wait, they always cheat.

>>53736855

The only good thing about Hellraiser is Pinhead and a few of the concepts. Go in expecting that and that alone.

>>53737869

No actually it just came naturally

How can you model the Doctor, his Regeneration, gadgets and the TARDIS in Awakening?

I have seen stats written for him as an Unchained Demon, so we could replace the Demon parts with Mage ones.

Path: Acanthus
Order: Apostate or Free Council
Legacy: ???

Gnosis: 6
Wisdom: 3
Arcana: Death 2, Fate 3, Forces 4, Life 2, Matter 4, Mind 3, Prime 4, Space 2, Spirit 1, Time 3

He mostly uses Matter 4 + Forces 4 to create Enhanced and Imbued Items, Time + Fate for planning ahead, and Mind for some psychic powers. His Regeneration was given to him by another Mage, but Paradox happened, so now he is stuck with two hearts and changing appearances/personality when he needs to regenerate.

But how does he deal with the fact that his Companions start out as Sleepers? Does he use Prime 3's Stealing Fire with Permanent Duration on them?

What about the TARDIS? Freeform tme travel requires Time 7, IIRC.

>>53738346
In Awakening? Really hard. Alot of his stuff can kind of be modeled by existing Awakening affects, but there are enough small differance that are also really important that it doesn't work out well.
You miiight be able to do it in trinity, as there was already a guy in there who's super smart and can time travel as his main powers.

>>53736383
She could make an ice car. Elsa was able to make sentient snow golems and ice castles in the film, so I don't see why she can't make ice tech with sufficient dots in matter.

>>53738346
Just please no.
Mages have far too much flexibility in power application to actually work as most fictional characters.

Instead, make them as horrors, and potentially even just make up dread powers for them as you need.

>>53738884
I find that screen magicians pale in comparison to those that are written out, especially tabletop.

Doctor Strange really paled in comparison to his comic counterpart. Even Gandalf was far stronger in the novels.

File: technocrat vs changeling.png (1MB, 1920x1072px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 1920x1072px

If the Technocracy/Threat Null won, would all Changelings immediately die from Banality? Pic related.

>>53738934
Potterverse wizards are pretty fucking weak.

No contingencies or innovations of note. Wands are more like boom sticks.

MAGIC MISSILE
MAGIC MISSILE
MAGIC MISSILE

>>53738782
That's true. Alternatively, the Doctor is an ex-Acanthus Archmage of the Bodhisattvas. The TARDIS would be his Chantry, and his Sonic Screwdriver was created through Matter + Forces Dynamics (which explains why it's so versatile). In this version, his Arcana spread would be more like this: Death 2, Fate 4, Forces 6, Life 4, Matter 6, Mind 3, Prime 6, Space 7, Spirit 2, Time 7

But what would his Legacy be?

>>53738934
It comes from the fact that WoD settings, whether old or new, are still very dark and oppressive. Sure an awakening mage can do a lot of cool things with their powers, but they're still pretty much powerless to actually affect the setting. They aren't getting rid of the Abyss, they can only kill individual entities. They can't beat the Seers, the most you can hope is to delay individual plots. They aren't going to cure cancer, or solve world hunger, or steer the course of a nations politics. In Old the only major changes that happened was in metaplot the characters had no input in, and in new it's just pretty static over all

>>53738992
Yeah, but tabletop wizards in general are ludicrously powerful. They have an answer to literally anything.

Not just WoD.

>>53738992
>Powerless to effect the setting

Tell it to the Archmasters. My will is the will thats going to pierce the Supernal.

>>53739042
I will. I mean seriously, name me one time in any of the books an archmaster did anything relevant or significant. I can't think of any. And even with them most of what I said holds true, you can't cast some imperial spell to just wipe out the Abyss or beat the Exarchs, and fucking around with earth on any major scale is going to get you executed by time traveling wizard cops

>>53739042
Archmages were a mistake.

Even worse that there will never be a splat equivalent for other gamelines. Only Changeling and Beast ever came close.

>>53739095
*Prime noises*

What time traveling wizard cops? :^)

>>53739134
That's now even remotely how that works and we both know it. If it was someone would have time traveled to undo the fall already, or some crazy aswadian would have destroyed the planet or some tetrach taken over it

>>53739097
Just take them out. They don't particularly do much so it's not like it takes any effort to just say they aren't real

File: an archmage did it.png (49KB, 1554x350px) Image search: [Google]

49KB, 1554x350px

>>53739095
Archmages dick with the world all the fucking time.

You just never know it. That's the point.

I'm looking into doing a Sabbat Chronicle, but information outside the revised guide is kind of scarce.

>>53739095
Wrong. Time traveling wizard cops are below Archmasters.

The Pax would be the mutual agreement to settle things. Which includes gods and other Archmasters.

>>53738946
Technocracy? Perhaps not.
There's still the possibility of art and wonder in a fully static reality with defined physical laws.

Threat Null? Them, and everyone else.

>>53739218
That's worse though. It means anything you go and do can just come along and be undone by someone else. That and again, though it exists as a concept in the fluff it's still kind of irrelevant. We never get ant descriptions of it happening, there's never going to be some book that details all the ways the world 'used to be' or whatever
>>53739249
The pax was precisely the time traveling wizard cops I was referring to. Nothing stopping some exarch from sending an ochremata into the past with imperial time spells to murder you as a baby if you get in the way

>>53739319
>That's worse though
It really isn't. Playing the Archmage Game is like playing Black Jack over all reality.

It's quite compelling.

>>53739249
No, they are above them. And correct issues like that.

>>53739319
You explicitly can't kill an archmage as a baby. You could but all you do is change it so no one knows them. They still exist and now no longer have earthly ties before archmastery. So congrats I guess.

>>53739343
>No, they are above them. And correct issues like that.

Are you intentionally being a dumbass?

:^)

>>53739343
Archmages ARE the Pax, silly

>>53739336
I still hold WoD was just never meant for anything like that. Like theres support in various other ww/opp lines for doing big setting things, but Awakening just as half a book. What actually happens when you do an imperium rite is more or less group fanfiction, since it would take way way more than just one book to explain what sort of things that entails. Plus supposedly tons of other archmages have all tried and failed, so letting the PCs be the ones who get it right kind of strikes me as special snowflake y

>>53739384
>>53739405
They are also the exarchs and archmasters who can literally send hundreds of enhanced orchemata.

>>53739412
Archmages getting their way is supposed to be a phenomenal thing, Anon.

You're competing against others of similar power. It's not fanfiction. It's a game of extraordinary wits.

>>53739095
The Corpus Author anon?

>>53739412
Playing the game as archmasters essentially means you have dozens of settings to deal with. due to a constantly changing universe. The only way you could escape that is by being in a golden road when it happens. Last time I checked it might just be the supernal.

>>53739450
Don't forget Merlin

Aren't the gods listed in Imperial Mysteries more powerful than any individual Archmage?

>>53739659
no

>>53739659
Depends on the Archmage or God in question.
A newbie Archmage who just recently got his hands on Forces 6 isn't going to be soloing the Old Gods of the Thristle any time soon.

>>53739659
It's easier for gods to get effects off. Archmages have to work harder but can potentially produce grander results.

>>53739480
That's another problem. Let's say some archmages gets curious about how silver affects werwolves and so they decide to do an imperium rite and erase silver from reality to see what happens.
No ST is ever going to go through all the work of imagining a new setting were silver never existed since the dawn of time. It just isn't happening

>>53739659
You have to remember that anything a god can do, an Archmage can do as well if set up properly.

It just requires dedication and Quintessence.

So was God from Demon: The Fallen an archmage?

>>53739764
That's an understatement. Gods have specific purviews and Influences. An Archmage can grab them all with no limit depending on the Arcana.

It's actually a good way to work around the Transfiguration duration limit, as rank 8 Influences aren't actually Imperial Practices.

>>53739798
How would an Archmage steal Influences though?

>>53739836
Transfiguration