>Ruling is hard. This was maybe my answer to Tolkien, whom,

Yes, yes, we know already. We get at least two of these a week. Fuck off.

We're going to have a yet another shitfest aboit justifiable genocide, aren't we?

Let's not. I can guarantee nothing new will be said and no one will change their minds. It'll just bea waste of time for everyone.

Justback away from the keyboard and go back to whatever generals we like to frequent, all right?

>>53691052
>Did Aragorn pursue a policy of systematic genocide and kill them? Even the little baby orcs, in their little orc cradles?
Yes, Martin, because Orcs were created by an evil god as a perverse mockery of life and likely only appeared alive at all because he infused their bodies with parts of his unquestionably evil soul.

>>53691052
His world is pretty much how a fat man would see this world.

Everything is horrible. Family is always disappointed in you. Its either too hot or too cold. Women are unattainable by means other than force or if they really want your wealth.

>>53691052
Use Moorcock's political arguments against Tolkien if you really want to start shit.

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>>53691052

>>53691189
And the food is really detailed.

>>53691052
>What was Aragorn’s tax policy?

The best, fairest policy, which was good to the rich and the poor alike.

>Did he maintain a standing army?

Yes, and it was the most disciplined and honourable army around.

>What did he do in times of flood and famine?

The best he could, which was generally enough.

>And what about all these orcs?

If they attacked Gondor they got rekt by the aforementioned army. Orcs in general are a disorganized rabble without Sauron, and probably just remained on the outskirts of civilization.

Martin is such a silly billy.

>>53691100
But shitfests about morally dubious things are fun!

>>53691206
Moorcock's essay where he rages about Tolkien being better than him is sidesplittingly hilarious.

It's a shame, because a lot of the Elric stuff is actually pretty good. Why couldn't the guy be content with a successful line of fantasy novels that, while maybe not as beloved as Tolkien, were influential in their own way? Not everybody can singlehandedly redefine the fantasy genre.

>>53691135
define "evil"

>>53691207
my sides

>>53691307
I'm more leaning towards Corum myself. Elric's just a bit too angsty to my tastes.

>>53691307
I keep hearing about this, something about being too Tory, right? Can someone give me a link?

>>53691352
http://www.revolutionsf.com/article.php?id=953

>>53691052
So he was an edgy contrarian shitlord that made his entire fictional world a cesspit of people with no good in it. Literally westeros and the other wierd continent deserve tl be purged. Nothing of value in it.

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>>53691381
>I never read the books

>>53691381
Emilia Clarke's arse begs to differ

>>53691189
This explains an awful lot.

>>53691052
yes, so?

>>53691421
It's not even her ass

>>53691372
Wew, that went quickly into the deep end.

>>53691419
I did, and most plebeians in westeros are pieces of shit, lowest of the low.

As mentioned before it's how a fat man would see the world.

>>53691504
Are you gonna give some details about most people being pieces of shit, or are you just talking out of your ass?

>>53691052
The Monarchies were the best form of government.
Nothing beats it, the king doesn't even have to be a good man, he just has to at least mediocre.
That being said the biggest problem with it is you literally only get ONE chance, if anyone down the line fucks it up it's over for good

Whatever happened to heroic fantasy? Where you could swing a sword at a goblin and be assured that you were in the right because goblins are 100% all evil all the time.

>>53691419
This.
>Stories being depressing in general means there is no hope on smaller or larger scales
>Main characters dying means they died for no reason other than shock factor
I will agree that the sex scenes are fucking awful. Doesn't GRRM DM? He should know how to fade to black to keep shit from being awkward.

>>53691533
We swung at goblins IRL and it turned out they weren't 100% evil, and it made us think about it.

>>53691533
>not all goblins

>>53691527
If it's not robust, that suggests it's not that great of a system.

>>53691052
That's a fucking idiotic way of saying "I want to make nitty-gritty stories that are more realistic whereas Tolkien's books were heroic fantasy." While also seeming to imply that Tolkien's heroic fantasy was wrong, instead of just a different way of telling a story.

>>53691571
Remember, it's a bitter fat man talking.

>>53691052
>This was maybe my answer to Tolkien
Well done answering a question Tolkien didn't ask, and feeling smug about your own answer.

>>53691189
Oh my god, why does this make so much sense.

>>53691571
>>53691587
While Martin has said dumb things about LOTR, in context the quote isn't deriding the book.
It's critiquing authors that rip off Tolkien but forget to write in a manner like his, where the questions he poses don't matter.

>>53691533
Adventure has fallen out of favour for romance. Instead of having stories about brave men adventuring we now have to have Twilight with bland female leads.

Basically only books for women are pushed any more. So you get this shit where it's all social interaction and no adventure.

>>53691624
Really? I thought that died with 50 shades.

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Was he right?

>>53691569
It's probably true.

>>53691666
Nah, it's not dead it's just different genres.

>Bland heroine
>Everyone loves her
>Alphas fight over her
>She saves the day through pure luck

>>53691135
Didn't tolkien go back and forth on this? I thought the last canon point was the orcs were just twisted elf stock.

>>53691308
Anyone who opposes my views.

Oops.

>>53691381
The quote is take out of context.
If you read the whole thing you see that he's only really talking about ASoIaF being written with a very different goal and mentality in mind; not that he thinks LotR would be better off with tax policies

>>53691052
>But Tolkien doesn’t ask the question: What was Aragorn’s tax policy? Did he maintain a standing army? What did he do in times of flood and famine? And what about all these orcs? By the end of the war, Sauron is gone but all of the orcs aren’t gone – they’re in the mountains. Did Aragorn pursue a policy of systematic genocide and kill them? Even the little baby orcs, in their little orc cradles?
They're mundane questions, which is why. But even I, an uneducated 20-something with five minutes to spare can probably answer them.

>tax policy
Feudal. He collects tax from his vassal lords who have their own laws in place for tax collection. As a Good King, Aragorn would have kept his taxes fairly low to allow local businesses to thrive - and this would have been aided/made possible by his many and successful wars of reconquest, a boon to any economy.

>standing army?
Yes. We see it in the six books of the lord of the rings. Supplemented by levies in times of total war.

>Flood?
There were no floods, his was a blessed reign.

>Famine?
He fed the people.

>What about the orcs?
They were systematically hunted down when their raiding parties threatened human settlements. Without adult orcs to care for their spawn, the children died cold and alone.

>>53691679
In the books, no. For the Watch.

>>53691533
people started noticing it was racism and became uncomfortable with it

>>53691737
>noticing it was racism
But it's not. Goblins are evil.

>>53691679
Yes, but it doesn't mean he's flawless. He made a lot of mistakes, and they led directly to his death. Mainly
>Giving support to Stannis, a known rebel against the crown, and making less effort to distance himself from him each day.
>Not keeping Ghost nearby, at all times.
>Publically announcing his intent to commit treason to people, who already have reasons to doubt and fear his leadership
If he did literally everything the same, BUT those three things, he would have lived.

>>53691533
Probably killed by a lack of innovation

>farm boy is a lost king/child of prophecy
>random peasant discovers they can do magic, then end up doing magic better than people who trained all their lives at it
>rag-tag group of adventurers end up saving the world
>wizard gathers a group of unlikely, but individually skilled (apart from one random, who doesn't have an discernable skills but will save the day at some point) people to stop an evil overlords

Or maybe it is because people just dont try to use goblins and orcs in an interesting way. They just throw them in to be a threat at the start of the story and a body like at the end.

>>53691710
What are your views?

Are you Allah?

>>53691699
Sounds like any of the dystopians novels my sisters read.

Daily reminder that Hizdahr zo Loraq did nothing wrong, and the locusts were poisoned by Shavepate.

>>53691052
What was Robert's?

>>53691746
People were more and more often using the "evil" races as sockpuppets for whatever group they happen to dislike and cast as violent louts.

>>53691810
I'm still convinced it was the perfumed seneshal.

>>53691778
I was just poking fun at super-focused viewpoints/ black and white mentalities that often finds their way into generic fantasies. Objective evil is very hard to define, but you can definitely make a case for certain actions. It's a hugely subjective, well, subject though.

>>53691813
Robert's tax policy was "What do you mean, we can't afford another feast? Go find the money somewhere!". He was a shitty king.

>>53691835
Who? You mean, that guy at Daenerys's court, who she immediately thinks is the traitor from the prophecy?

>>53691810
He still wouldn't have done if he did.
Daeny's incompetent rule is destabilising an entire subcontinent.

>>53691737
>people started noticing it was racism and became uncomfortable with it

>>53691746
>But it's not. Goblins are evil.

Both can be true, it IS racism. But, goblins ARE evil.

>>53691702

The idea of a pure evil, irredeemable race went against his Catholic ideal of spiritual redemption. The way the books had it, Sauron was basically taking away their ability to feel fear in battle.

>>53691827
It's ok, you can just say Terry Goodkind here

>>53691801
Most of them followed the template of the Divergence series, just as many fantasy novels followed LotR.
One of the reasons I've heard of female protags is because people, whether or not they realize it, expect less of a female protag in terms of courage and accomplishment compared to a male one.

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>>53691746

>>53691864
But she fixed it by the end. Yes, some concessions had to be made, and the truce was shakey, but things were getting better. This is why the poisoning happened - to cause chaos again.

>>53691052
>greentext as op
>every day until you like it

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>>53691189

You got me there.

>>53691840
At least no one in the books disputed that

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>>53691903
LOOKS LIKE TAXPOSTING'S BACK ON THE MENU, BOYS

>>53691746
But does it make a good story?

>>53691569

No system is great.

>>53691927
Who cares?

This is a thread about GRRM, we're not here for a good story, we're here for nihilistic murderporn.

>>53691881
That certainly tracks with the people defending Star Wars Ep7.

>>53691896
The economy was still in the shitter and she wouldn't have reintroduced slavery, meaning it would remain so for quite some time.
As sson as the other cities relized the marriage didn't mean a major course change, there'd be bloodshed again.

>>53691858
Yes, him. The Shavepate has everything to lose by poisoning Danaerys, since he is very tied to her faction and no one would support him if she dies. He encourages Barristan to make the coup because Hizdahr and his new noble advisers wanted to get rid of him immediately after Danaerys disappears.

I propose a selective breeding program for orcs with less aggressive behaviors. Eventually we'll end up with a civilized people.

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>>53691189

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>>53691560
>We swung at goblins IRL and it turned out they weren't 100% evil
Fucking goblin sympathizers

>>53691372
>http://www.revolutionsf.com/article.php?id=953

I love that the ad at the bottom of that essay was for fidget spinners. Made me laugh.

>>53691189
So the only differences from the real world are dragons, magic and bullshit seasons?

>>53691945
It's the opposite. Shavepate has everything to GAIN. The moment Hizdahr was married to Daenerys, Shavepate lost his power, lost his place as an advisor and even the control of the Brazen Beasts went to his hated enemy. It was a fucking disaster for him, and he needed to act. So he did.

>>53691942
Ep7 had the problem of trying to squeeze the entire heroic journey of Luke into a single movie without his missteps or failures.
He tried to challenge Vader, and lost, it took 3 movies worth of growth for him to find what was in himself (the ability to forgive) to defeat him.
Rey, by the end of the first movie, is on even keel with arguably the second most powerful (and still growingf) force user in the galaxy with a weapon she had little experience with and is renowned to be difficult to get a grip on.

>>53691946
Not a bad idea. Breed the docile ones and put them to work

>>53691801
Proves my point then doesn't it? They take the same format and shift it. Hunger games is Katniss with 2 alpha males, Divergent is 1 alpha male in the first movie, I assume more appear.

But now you see why fantasy is dead. Women killed it and turned it into romance novels of different flavours.

>>53691944
But the point is, she allowed other cities to reinstate slavery. They even opened a slave market under Meereen's walls. No slavery was practicted INSIDE, but Daenerys agreed to leave the rest of the Slaver's Bay alone.

>>53691702
We know that Tolkien decided they weren't Elves. That's about it. (Christopher unfortunately didn't get that far into his father's notes before he compiled The Silmarillion.) What he decided on eventually -- if he decided on any one answer eventually -- is unknown. Though, his theory that they were forgeries (either entirely artificial in nature or simple animals made perverse and corrupt by Morgoth) answers the dilemma about them seemingly being born evil perfectly, and also fits nicely with other anecdotes about them in Tolkien's notes, such as the line:
>Orcs we may call them, for in the beginning they were strong and fell as demons

If they indeed are forgeries made to appear alive by having part of Morgoth within them, then that shard of Morgoth would have to be split up and divided as they multiplied. Divine power is very consistent in this way in Tolkien's world. The Ainur only have a set amount of power to use and grow weaker the more they act upon the world. There's no way to suddenly gain more of it except through direct intevention from Eru.

The original Orcs may indeed have been nearly as strong as Balrogs, but by the third age they had grown in numbers so much that every individual Orc was a weak and cowardly being, barely able to overpower a Hobbit on his own.

>>53691533
We were introduced to the idea that humans are equally evil and yet killing them just for being humans was not socially acceptable. Ergo killing evil creatures just for being evil is not acceptable either.

>>53691189
Is that how fatasses really feel ?

>>53691372
Well, he's more of a faggot than I thought.

>>53691881
Women can't insert into any one who isn't like themselves. They're unable to appreciate someone for who they are not what they can do for them. As such they have to make female leads all but blank slates for women to project into them. Which is why you have characters like Katniss.

>>53692035
>>>/r9k/

>>53691988
Bullshit; Rey taking on Crybaby McEmo is in no way worse than Luke becoming an instant fighter pilot and blowing up the deathstar.
And at least she already had some close combat experience.

>>53692046
Luke was likewise established to be a good shot and a decent pilot long before that point.

>>53692017
>The original Orcs may indeed have been nearly as strong as Balrogs, but by the third age they had grown in numbers so much that every individual Orc was a weak and cowardly being, barely able to overpower a Hobbit on his own.

Orcs are ninja?

>>53692043

Not him but he is right, but not just with women. Most people in general can't self-insert unless they can mold a character after themselves.

>>53692017
>The original Orcs may indeed have been nearly as strong as Balrogs, but by the third age they had grown in numbers so much that every individual Orc was a weak and cowardly being, barely able to overpower a Hobbit on his own.
Not the guy you're responding to, but unlikely. Consider the orcs that attack the Sindar and the Silvans in the pre-first age before the Noldor show up. It heavily implies that the main difference that changes the elves of Beleriand going to "Getting ass kicked" to "almost effortlessly crushing the orcs" is the development of iron weaponry and armor. That doesn't make them sound like demons, that makes them sound like orcs as we know it from later ages.

>>53691988
I tried to suggest to a friend that I thought it would have been better if Rey (with a lightsaber) and Po (with one of those electric stick things) had fought the bad guy together and barely held their own until something saved them. But that just triggered my friend and he went on a rant about Star Wars fluff, and I had no idea what he was going on about.

>>53691962
Pretty much, yeah. I suffered through the books at about the same pace as he was writing them, and kept reading only because I felt like something good was about to happen. It was only when some viking dude got his hand replaced with black goo that I realised that this is what a fat man under the constant feeling of hunger must feel. A small cookie feels like heaven.

>>53692006
Dystopian isn't fantasy, anon, it's nearer to sci-fi/cyberpunk.
Even Twilight was stock WoD/Ann Rice style urban fantasy, which is not the same as fantasy as you are talking about, and has been popular with women for decades.
>>53692046
And Luke already had some piloting experience, pulled the equivalent of a force magic trick by auto angling torpedoes where he wanted them to go, and would have gotten scrubbed if he literally wasn't rescued by Han.
Hell, I'd argue that Vader went after the clearly more experienced pilots first, only going after Luke when he was the final remaining threat.

>>53691940
I agree, but robust systems are more attractive than ones that rely on single points of failure like monarchs and easily-disputed succession.

>>53692043
Discussing the state of fantasy and sci fi fiction is on topic for /tg/. Sorry you can't take an objective view on the shifting market and psychology behind it.

>>53691052
>Lord of the Rings had a very medieval philosophy: that if the king was a good man, the land would prosper. We look at real history and it’s not that simple.

Yeah but the real world doesn't have Fisher King magic.

>>53692059
Flying a glider craft incapable high speeds or any complex manoveurs.
I can drive a car;doesn't mean I could win a Formular 1 race.

>>53692024

As someone who was fat and has lost weight, yes. Not everything but lots of things stopped sucking once I lost weight. Family began complimenting me on my weight loss and saying good things about me. I stopped feeling self conscious about my gut when talking to women.

Let me tell you, having to add another hole to your belt because you've lost inches on your waist is an extremely underrated feeling.

>>53692059

You're comparing driving a car to piloting a fighter jet

>>53692104

Yeah but monarchy is an easy fix. If you don't like the king you just off him.

That's why I liked the Mandate of Heaven of ancient China, it works exactly as intended. Is the king still in power? Well then obviously the gods want him to be in power. Was he deposed? Guess he fell out of the gods' favor.

>>53692119
Not to mention that LoTR is literally a story within the story, being mostly compiled of the Red Book of Westmarch with god knows how many intervening translators/editors. It's not so much a fantasy story as it is fictional myth, and if you want to compare it to something, the Prose Edda is probably the closest literary comparison. So hey, what was Gylfi's rule like?

>>53692046
"I used to shoot womba rats" was clearly explaining how Luke was an expert sniper in his speeder. Him and his friends had been training for this mission just by having fun. It's like how a soldier would be good at shooting if him and his friends went out hunting rabbits every day for fun

>>53692153
I was never a real fatass, I'm 95kg and my highest weight was 120kg. But even then I don't remember the world as more bleak than it is now.

>>53692122
>>53692172
Not him but you're forgetting that the difficult part for Luke wasn't flying the trench, they all could do that, including Biggs who was from Luke's hometown. The problem was hitting that tiny exhaust port which even with the line of "I used to bullseye wamp rats in Beggar's Canyon, they're no bigger than 2 meters", is in reality because he used the force.

>>53691984
It seems I got my timeline a bit mixed up. Still, I'm not certain that the Shavepate was behind it.

>>53692118
Throwing down "everyone is like X because I say so" arguments is the exact opposite of intelligent discussion.
It is trolling at worst, and paints your mindset for what comes after at best as someone who mindset is narrowed and unwilling to accept outside logic.

>>53691189
Alright. Now I understand game of thrones much better. Thank you.

>>53692082
Hamill was hoping Luke was going to come in and save Rey in the forest fight scene, so you're not alone there.

>>53692211
Evolution exists, it has selected different traits for different creatures. The male traits and the female traits are different and as such we can compare those traits. Humans are not blank slates, we have pre-defined traits distinct to our sub category.

>>53691984
Now the Shavepate has Meereen. Selmy will die in the battle and he will purge the city of the Great Masters

>>53692205
>>53692186
Again, piloting some civilian craft isn't gonna give you the ability to not only pilot fighter, but also fight in a fullblown dogfight against trained pilots.

>>53692244
>All women are bad. vain, dumb, selfish and don't want to fuck me

>>53692277
I deeply suspect that when Daenerys returns and fucks the slavers up, she'll leave Shavepate in charge of Meereen while she's off to Westeros, and he'll get away with everything.
But then again
>Daenerys ever leaving Essos

>>53692244
I trought the supreme gentleman offed himself

>>53691927
If it's written well, yes.

You can have a complex, morally grey race of goblins for the anti-hero to kill and it could still be a worse story than the noble hero slaying always-evil goblins if a shit author's at the helm.

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>>53691372
>the part where he has to offhandedly mention Rand as 'corrupt realism' as compared to Tolkien's 'corrupt romanticism'.

Nigga can't have it either way can he?

He strikes me as somehow hugely indignant that a people and a generation who saw the trenches and the blitzes saw through all that 'romance and excitement' of the grand spectacle of destruction and wanted some peace and fucking quiet in a garden.

>>53692244
Now you are trotting up a nurture v nature argument that is still being debated, and will continue to be debated until the human brain is mapped out.
Let this go, anon, there is nothing you can actually add that isn't sensational opinion at this point, and you could at least approach actual fantasy and sci-fi, rather than sub-genres that become hot properties with the success of a critical series.

>>53692290
It's pointed out that it's got the same controls as his speeder. And he has Jedi reflexes, which is why anakin can pilot so well.

>>53692385
There is no nurture vs nature argument. Only an uninformed idiot frames the discussion in those terms.

>>53692448
>There is no nurture vs nature argument. Only an uninformed idiot frames the discussion in those terms.
Litteraly name calling without argument. Well done lad.

>>53692448
>There is no nurture vs nature argument.
>>53692244
>we have pre-defined traits
Really, anon?
This is your last (you) from me.

>>53692464
>You're saying X
>I'm not saying X, X is complete non-sense
>Saying X is non-sense is not an argument, you must argue with me on this thing you disagree with entirely.

>>53692491
Any one who took the time to study the subject knows that nurture and nature go hand in hand. A man will display masculine traits and desire masculine things due to his nature. The form those masculine things take is nurture. Maybe an axe is masculine or a mace, so he will use those weapons over a bow which is seem as feminine.

>>53692448
Jumping in here:
And Rey has those reflexes too which is why she can fight so well. What's your point?

>>53691523
Everyone wants to rape, steal or is greedy as fuck.
Literally its as if the orcs where running middle earth.

>>53692290
If only they'd established he was Imperial Acadeny material and had one of the pilots vouch for his ability earlier.
But that would be too much to expect, right?

>>53692520
So you're talking out of your ass.

>>53692512
That she was doing battle against someone with far more experience with a weapon known to be difficult to handle.
Luke didn't outshoot Vader, he hit a bullseye with the force. Had he not been rescued by Han, he would have been stone dead.
Rey did not need help, or rescuing, she flat out matched someone at what they had been doing most of their life under the tutelage of the last jedi knight.

>>53692512
Because they didn't actually contribute to her Victory.
If you recall, She was losing until Maz Ex Machina happened.

>>53691308
They were irredeemably evil like the devil.

>>53692575
Given Tolkien's deeply-rooted Christian faith, these constant claims that orcs are all objectively and irrevocably evil must make him spin in his grave.

>>53691988
SW autism plz... SW ended when Lucas sold his shit to disney shills.

>>53692080
But see, you're basing this off of Silmarillion which, as already established, isn't necessarily consistent with what Tolkien eventually decided on. Christopher has since admitted to several things he would not have included had he read the entirety of his father's notes beforehand.

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Everybody is raging about Martin's supposed autism, just to start actuallly answering his rethoric questions in the most autistic way possible.

The aim of this quote is not to point out logical gaps and unanswerable questions in LotR, but to emphasize how Tolkien comes from a different mythology than Martin. Tolkien's tales are very epos-like, intentionally leaving specifics unknown or making them cryptic, while focusing on themes and allegories.
Martin's world is comparedly very down to earth, exploring human nature and human societies in a different world with different frame conditions.

This differentiation is the point of his comment, not criticism of Tolkien.

>>53691189
>His world is pretty much how a fat man would see this world.
>Everything is horrible. Family is always disappointed in you. Its either too hot or too cold. Women are unattainable by means other than force or if they really want your wealth.

>>53691229
>And the food is really detailed.

Wow, I thought for sure after the tenth or twelfth time we had this exact same thread, nothing new or interesting would ever come out of it but now I'm laffin

>>53692632
Granted, it's been some time since I went through HoME, but I can't recall anything to that point concerning the wars in Beleriand itself. Do you have anything to support that statement that the pre-Noldor arrival battles was something that was considered for serious revision?

>>53692564
The point is that the Force is obviously a huge augment to one's abilities. Luke is able to pilot a fighter with much different specs than his speeder, dogfight, dodge point-defense weaponry, target if not partially guide a missile with the Force, etc., and he does this better than more experienced pilots can do. If you can accept that Luke can have extraordinary abilities because of his strong connection to the Force, why not accept that with Rey. Or do you think it's unbelievable that Rey could have a stronger connection to the Force than Kylo Ren?

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>>53691052
>Tolkien can say that Aragorn became king and reigned for a hundred years, and he was wise and good
>BUT WHYYY THOUGH
Who fucking cares? Aren't we allowed to believe that he knew what the fuck he was doing?

Why the fuck does everyone who comes in this thread have to drop their retarded two cents when it's been said in the thread multiple times that the quote isn't a criticism of Tolkien, but an explanation of the kinds of stories Tolkien wants to tell as compared to Martin's own.

>>53692788
Still, Luke matched his Force-augmented abilities against something static and unliving, let alone being connected to a force: he exhibited good flight reflexes and fired a bullseye.

Rey, meanwhile, went against another living being, similarly empowered by the Force and also having spent years if not decades actively training in their use.

They're not really comparable at all.

>>53692575
Who said Devil is irredeemable?
I'm pretty sure by christian mythology even Lucifer himself can get redemption is he only asked for it. In the original Judaism mythos he even get it and his rule over Hell is his pennance

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>>53692840
>Why the fuck does everyone who comes in this thread have to drop their retarded two cents when it's been said in the thread multiple times that the quote isn't a criticism of Tolkien, but an explanation of the kinds of stories Tolkien wants to tell as compared to Martin's own.

Because OP makes this thread once a week.

Everything that could be discussed has already been discussed.

Now we just shitpost.

>>53692808
>Aren't we allowed to believe that he knew what the fuck he was doing?
Because we live in the post-modern age, where our new creed is simply "deconstruction" and the destruction of established mythology. If we are told the king is good and his reign was fair, we MUST disprove it because it's THE CURRENT YEAR.

>>53692858
At the very least by Catholic doctrine, I think the idea is that Satan is too prideful to repent.

>>53692840
Tolkien succeeded in his theme - high fantasy.

Martin may sell books or be well-regarded by the masses in the low fantasy genre, but as a worldbuilder, the substance of his criticism, he's a failure.

>>53691189
Good job, anon.

>>53691462
Eyebrows?

>>53692897
>At the very least by Catholic doctrine, I think the idea is that Satan is too prideful to repent.
Yes, but were he to swallow his pride and legitimately seek repentance, he could gain it?

>>53692901
So basically, Martin fails in the one thing that sets his book apart from Les Rois Maudits? Other than the hourly castrations, I mean.

>>53692046
Here are a few reasons why that's stupid
1) Luke was established as a good pilot multiple times throughout the film.
To contrast, Rey got one scene of beating up some no name Thugs with an entirely different weapon
2) Luke was up against a challenging target, not dogfighting someone.
To contrast, Rey was fighting against a trained opponent that, while wounded, was clearly capable of fighting comfortably, and with skill. This is showcased by the fact that he avoids striking down Finn until Finn gets a lucky hit in, whereupon he instantly stops toying.
3) Luke's use of the force reflected scenes we'd already seen, he understood the force enough to use it, and was aided by Obi-Wan.
Rey just closed her eyes and got an instant force power up. We may have seen jumbled scenes that showed there was something odd about her, but they don't connect to the scene.
4) Luke was a good person and reasonably skilled in his areas of expertise, but he was nothing extraordinary. It makes his one remarkable act a dramatic moment.
Rey pulled something out of her bag of tricks on average about once every 20 minutes. While it's true her Mechanical prowess is perfectly justified by her upbringing, her multiple extraordinary abilities cause patience to fray when she pulls yet another one out of the bag, against the one person she SHOULD be having a hard time with.

>>53692930
If he could swallow his pride, he wouldn't fall in the first place.

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>>53692930
I'm no expert, but I don't see why not.

>>53692940
>Here are a few reasons why that's stupid
>1) Luke was established as a good pilot multiple times throughout the film.
Agan with a non-transatmoshpheric craft sunject to gravity. The difference to a spcecraft let alone a fighter would be huge.

>To contrast, Rey got one scene of beating up some no name Thugs with an entirely different weapon
Establishing that she is proficient in closecombat. And while the weapon is diffrerent; i'd say a lot of the principles still apply to swordfighting.
>2) Luke was up against a challenging target, not dogfighting someone.
He DID fight against Tie Fighters prior to his trench run AND avoided turret fire the entire time.

Kylo has been clearly established as lacking discipline as well as much actual combat expeirence. Add to that that he was wounded and clearly torn up about killing his dad and I don't find it that hard to believe that Rey could hold her own against him.
>3) Luke's use of the force reflected scenes we'd already seen, he understood the force enough to use it, and was aided by Obi-Wan.
>Rey just closed her eyes ...
Rey's force powers being a bit much I'll grant you.
>4) Luke was a good person and reasonably skilled in his areas of expertise, but he was nothing extraordinary. It makes his one remarkable act a dramatic moment.
Again; instant ace pilot with a type of craft he had no prior experience and capable of outshooting trained soldiers when there is no indication of him ever having held a blaster before.

>>53693155
>and capable of outshooting trained soldiers when there is no indication of him ever having held a blaster before.
Not the guy you're responding to, but for this point alone, the only people he "outshoots" are the death star stormtrooper contingent, whom we later find out are letting them go.

>>53693155
>He DID fight against Tie Fighters prior to his trench run AND avoided turret fire the entire time.
Those were just mooks, though, not Force-powered Sith lords.

>>53691372
Wow. He is a salty, pretentious motherfucker.

>>53693197
Mooks who went through years of training.

And Kylo is pecifically stated to not be a full fledged Sith yet.

>>53693193
Why not disable the trashcompactor then?

>>53693303
>Mooks who went through years of training.
You don't know that. For all you know they could've been drafted just the day before.

What we do know is that they piloted the shittiest fighters in the galaxy.

>>53692118
>objective view on the shifting market

>women killed muh heroic fantasy wif their icky romances abloo bloo bloo

Fuck off, women buying romance hasn't killed SF or mysteries or literature or books on history. The only thing that killed heroic fantasy was that after twenty years of stale, warmed-over Tolkien rehash bullshit, PEOPLE STOPPED BUYING THEM. I know, I'm one of them.

It happens to genres now and then, not because of some vagino-conspiracy to "push" romance books, but because markets sometimes get saturated with cookie cutter shit and the buying public moves elsewhere. (Just ask Westerns, they've never really recovered from their boom) Bitching about what actually is selling doesn't fix any of your genre's problems, it's just scapegoating and envy.
The public will come back, you just have to wait your turn. SF's on an upswing now, and it and fantasy have historically taken turns in the genre market, so when this upswing in SF recedes, people will probably start looking to see if fantasy's doing anything worthwhile yet.

>>53691721
Yeah, but /the/ would prefer to grump about it instead.

>>53693318
Yeah, the guys stationed on the most valuable military asset of the Empire are clearly untrained hicks they shanghied out off some alley.

Next you gonna bring up the faulty blasters for all the stormtroopers in the original trilogy.

>>53693303
>Why not disable the trashcompactor then?
Because you need them to think their escape was honest, otherwise, they won't lead you right back to the rebel base. (Although why the fuck they'd go to Yavin when they are pretty sure they have a transmitter on board is beyond me)

>>53691253
>The best, fairest policy, which was good to the rich and the poor alike.

Describe it. How is it structured? By what means people are compelled to pay taxes? How are those taxes spent? Where's the financial report?

>Yes, and it was the most disciplined and honourable army around.

How was discipline maintained? Through which method are men tested and trained? From which strata of society does he recruit from? What tactics were trained and used?

>The best he could, which was generally enough.

How was relief structured? Rescue operations run? Which organisation used to provide the manpower needed?

>>53693359
>Because you need them to think their escape was honest, otherwise, they won't lead you right back to the rebel base.
Why leave the Falcon ungarded then?
Why send only a grand total of 4 fighters after them?
Why not shoot one of the guys who isn't Leia to make it seem you mean business?

Why risk the plans getting away at all when the Rebels have zero chance of harming the Deathstar at all?

>>53691052
What was Aragorn's sex policy?

>>53692017
Tolkien's use of the word 'demon" is not synonymous with "Balrog." Tolkien's notes are clear he only intended for 3-8 Balrogs as we know them. Your theory is neat but I'm struggling to recall any info in his notes that hint toward it being Tolkien's intentions.

>>53693469
Being angry about elves.

>>53693429
>Why leave the Falcon ungarded then?
What? It wasn't. http://www.galaxyfaraway.com/gfa/wp-content/gallery/millenium_falcon/guardmf.jpg

>Why send only a grand total of 4 fighters after them?
Do we have any information concerning the scramble capabilities of the Death Star? The Falcon can get to hyperspace in about a minute if the escape off of Tatooine is any indication, there's probably not enough time to get people up and ready, power up the fighter's engines, launch from anywhere on a battlestation the size of the fucking moon, and intercept a moving target. Bet you anything that those TIEs were whatever was their CAP or equivalent.

>Why not shoot one of the guys who isn't Leia to make it seem you mean business?
Which one is the pilot? And how did you find that out sitting in Tarkin's office?

>Why risk the plans getting away at all when the Rebels have zero chance of harming the Deathstar at all?
Because you want to find the base, and squash this rebellion sooner rather than later.

You would know there are no fucking orc cradels if you READ THE GODDAMN BOOK, COOKIE TITS.

>>53693328
This.

>>53693494
>Because you want to find the base, and squash this rebellion sooner rather than later.
That what the Deathstar was for; to bully sytems into stop funding the Rebels.

>>53693494
>Do we have any information concerning the scramble capabilities of the Death Star? The Falcon can get to hyperspace in about a minute if the escape off of Tatooine is any indication, there's probably not enough time to get people up and ready, power up the fighter's engines, launch from anywhere on a battlestation the size of the fucking moon, and intercept a moving target. Bet you anything that those TIEs were whatever was their CAP or equivalent.
Oh, fuck off. Even if there are no patrols (which would be retarded enough), they got something like two dozen Ties up within a minute or so of realising their turrets were too slow to hit the X-Wings.

>>53693155
>Again with a non-transatmoshpheric craft subject to gravity. The difference to a spcecraft let alone a fighter would be huge.
He was Good enough to go to the Academy. One would assume that the skills are transferable.
Obi-Wan says he's become quite the pilot himself and compared him to a starpilot while doing so, which was Anakin.
Biggs vouches for his ability to keep up with the fleet.
Everything in the narrative clearly says the skills are transferable enough for the purpose and that his skills aren't extraordinary.

>Establishing that she is proficient in closecombat.
Against some Mooks. Not a trained opponent using the weapon she's unfamiliar with
>And while the weapon is diffrerent; i'd say a lot of the principles still apply to swordfighting.
A quarterstaff verses a near weightless sword that will kill you if you fuck up?
Perfectly acceptable against mooks, like Finn how used it, but not against the end boss.

>Again; instant ace pilot with a type of craft he had no prior experience
See above

>and capable of outshooting trained soldiers when there is no indication of him ever having held a blaster before.
The ones legendary for their ineptitude against all characters, and that were explicitly instructed to let them go?

It's depressing that the only viable defence of Rey is to shit on other characters and hope it covers up the smell.

>>53693549
>That what the Deathstar was for; to bully sytems into stop funding the Rebels.
No, it wasn't. The Death Star was for bullying the local system governors without the old political machinery of the Republic to keep them in line.

>Oh, fuck off. Even if there are no patrols (which would be retarded enough), they got something like two dozen Ties up within a minute or so of realising their turrets were too slow to hit the X-Wings.
No, they didn't. They got 3 Tie's up, and one of them was Vader's.

Have you actually seen the movie?

today a quarter fell out of my boxers while I was getting dressed haha isn't that wild like how did that even get there?

>>53693608
>Have you actually seen the movie?
Have you?
Because it sounds like you didn't.

>>53691767
>>Not keeping Ghost nearby, at all times.
Doggo's gotta eat.

>>53693616
Fuck you and your quater.

>>53693628
I'm not the one who has been claiming things that are directly contradicted by what we see on the fucking screen.

>>53693650
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WBG2rJZGW8
TIEs show up under a minute of Vader ordering them to be scrambled.

>>53692788
Because Luke explicitly received instruction during the movie and we saw him develop some talent for it, in the scene where he's deflecting shots with the helmet on. Then, in the next movie, despite receiving even more training he's soundly defeated by Darth Vader.

But Rey, with literally zero training and having heard of the Force for the first time like two days ago, is not only able to use the mind trick but defeat a trained Dark Side user in combat. Anakin was good at flying shit as a kid, he didn't tag along with Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon and beat Darth Maul for them.

>>53691372
>the redoubtable J.K.Rowling
Top kek

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>>53691189
How can GRRM ever recover?

>>53692842
>>53693721
Not to mention, Rey is somehow able to do what Luke was not able to do even after receiving training from the greatest Jedi there is.

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>>53693683
Now try reading the rest of the post, figure out why defending a battlestation involves moving differently than chasing down a ship that is fleeing away from it. Come on, you can do it!

By the way, remember how you cliaimed the Falcon was unguarded? And that was wrong? What's your excuse for that?

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>>53691189

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>>53691372
>Doesn't even acknowledge that the Prose and Story were largely influenced by Viking Mythology and poetry
It's one thing not to like it, but quite another to be completely oblivious, and far more to use that misunderstanding as a launching pad for sociopolitical REEEEEing

What a truly sad man

>>53693722
Well I did like Harry Potter books better than anything Martin's written...

>>53693763
>Now try reading the rest of the post, figure out why defending a battlestation involves moving differently than chasing down a ship that is fleeing away from it. Come on, you can do it!
>fighters take longer to start if they are supposed to go a certain direction

>>53693763
>By the way, remember how you cliaimed the Falcon was unguarded? And that was wrong? What's your excuse for that?
You mean the two guys who got taken out by slapstick and weren't inquired upon?

>>53693823
You sick basterd

>>53693823
What was Fudge's tax policy?

>>53693805

You should read the quote in context, it makes sense there. GRRM is a massive Tolkien fan In both senses of the word BTW

>>53693763
Give up, anybody that actually defends Rey's inexplicable competence in Part VII is an idiot that won't be reasoned with. It's an okay movie but full of dumb shit like that.

V is my favorite movie, what's yours?

>>53693865
Mudbloods pay an extra tax to finance desinfectant for wizards having to shake hands with them.

>>53693873
Are you sure you're replying to the right person?

>>53693885

Not him but the only correct answers are V or the scenes with Luke inside the Death Star with Vader and the Emperor in VI as that was the best part of the original trilogy.

>>53691307
Some of the salt may come from the fact that Elric and one particular part of the Silmarillion (the Children of Hurin part) drew inspiration from a particular Icelandic saga. The ending of the saga is a dude falling on his own sword, a black blade that says out loud it's happy to take its master's life. Same ending is used in both works inspired by it; maybe some Tolkien fans sperged out and assumed Moorcock was ripping off Tolkien, rather then them both coming from a common source, and it make Moorcock salty about it.
Either that, or he just hated grandpa long after grandpa was dead and he was grandpa-age himself. Given that he also bitches about modern writers, probably that second one.
Honestly, the saddest part is that he IS hugely influential. Maybe not as big an effect as Tolkien, but still really huge. But I guess it's not enough for him.

>>53693924
>Either that, or he just hated grandpa long after grandpa was dead and he was grandpa-age himself. Given that he also bitches about modern writers, probably that second one.

So basically he's Harlan Ellison?

How the fuck this thread is more SW than SW thread?

>>53693885
I feel IV id best as a standalone movie; V only really works as part of a series.

>>53693907

Hey, you're right, I don't know what happened there. I was supposed to be replying to... Dammit I can't find the post now in all the Star Wars talk. Well, wherever you are, consider yourself duly chastised, faggot!

>>53693904
so it would have been stupid for Voldy to kill them. The state would lose valuable taxes. No wonder the wizarding world fought back against him.

>>53693942
Because some people still have cooties/are too blinded by nostalgia to admit that the original movies were just as flawed as the new ones.

>>53691767
Yeah but he got better though

>>53693942
Rey defence force shitting on the OT in the hope of distracting people from the flaws in VII.

>>53693968
>as flawed as the new ones
As flawed as the prequels, maybe. Nothing is as bad as D*sney Wars.

>>53693851
>fighters take longer to start if they are supposed to go a certain direction
Do they not teach English at whatever school you went to, or are you just retarded? It's not that the fighters take longer to take off, it's what you do AFTER you take off. Because in that rough minute that you take off, accelerate, maybe even move around the battlestation the Falcon has jumped to hyperspace, which is not something you have to worry about when defending against an attack.

>You mean the two guys who got taken out by slapstick and weren't inquired upon?
You haven't seen the movie. Let me help you, senor retard.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sq51w34Hg9I&index=21&list=PLwQw-Kaed8a8u9aZ1_8cY0d5YP8a45qTr

>>53693885
Are you the same guy, or are you another idiot who can't read? I mean seriously, what is so hard about this stuff? >>53693193

>>53693913
>If you will not turn to the dark side, then perhaps she will
>NEVER
Luke giving in to the dark side in order to defeat Vader, yet pulling himself back in realizing what he had done, all with this music playing really is the best moment in all of SW
https://youtu.be/L63In39n86c?t=1m13s

>>53693469
Only straight couples were accepted, any form of degeneracy was to be performed away from the eyes of others, and was tolerated if it involved concenting adults/animals.

>>53691624
listen to the other dude, he's onto something. they even cucked the superhero genre by pairing it with soap opera in the arrowverse.

>>53694011
>Do they not teach English at whatever school you went to, or are you just retarded? It's not that the fighters take longer to take off, it's what you do AFTER you take off. Because in that rough minute that you take off, accelerate, maybe even move around the battlestation the Falcon has jumped to hyperspace, which is not something you have to worry about when defending against an attack.
So the four TIEs who made it caught up and had several minues to tussle with the Falcon, but there was no way to bring a single additional craft to bear?

>You haven't seen the movie. Let me help you, senor retard.
Would you call walking off to watch your boss beat up the elderly without even leaving one guy behind "Guarding"?

>>53691253
Thanks for clearing the air, Tolkein.

>>53691189
joke's on you, neckbeard, since you seem to understand so very well how a fa/tg/uy sees the world

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>>53694020
>mfw Sheev acknowledges Luke as a jedi, and when the realisation hits that he one of the few characters to do so.

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>>53694090
>So the four TIEs who made it caught up and had several minues to tussle with the Falcon, but there was no way to bring a single additional craft to bear?
Learn to read. That has nothing to do with what I suggested. This might help https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_air_patrol

>Would you call walking off to watch your boss beat up the elderly without even leaving one guy behind "Guarding"?
Pic related.

>>53694127
There's also the fact that the Emperor basically tried the same smooth talk to both Anakin and Luke, and the difference is Anakin listened while Luke didn't. Things repeat but with varying outcomes.
It's like poetry.

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We all know the world is full of chance and anarchy,
So, yes, it's true to life for characters to die randomly,
But news flash: the genre's called fantasy!
It's meant to be unrealistic, you myopic manatee!

>>53692202
just imagine being a lot uglier

same thing really

>>53694127

In fairness it's more of a "fine, you want to call yourself a Jedi? Then die like one"

>>53693823
Better than GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRM is a low bar. The HP series is to long for it's own good, and some of the problems stem from Rowling seemingly forgetting elements. They're fine as children's books in the beginning, but later installments rely on the literary equivalent to Stockholm syndrome to keep people reading.

>>53691679
Books: overall yes, but in a lot of regards, no.
Show: he's right about everything and it's sickening to watch.

>>53694197
Partially, but the fact Sheev gives up on a powerful apprentice shows that he realised Luke was resolved enough for him to acknowledge it as more than bravado/delusion of grandeur.

It's also noteworthy that, as I recall, He's the only one to call Luke a Jedi in a straight manner.
Yoda only acknowledges him being the last of the Jedi as a default prize, Jabba uses it as a mockery and Chewie's judgement is clearly skewed

>>53691189
>>53691229
Holy shit.

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>>53691189
I'm trying my hardest to come up with a rebuttal and I can't fucking do it

>>53691189
So much truth in one post

>>53693155
>Establishing that she is proficient in closecombat. And while the weapon is diffrerent; i'd say a lot of the principles still apply to swordfighting.

I just want to second this as somebody with actual combat experience. Many melee weapons have a great number of transferable principles in their use; a moderately experienced person using a different weapon than one they're used to, fighting on even footing with another moderately experienced person with discipline problems and a gaping chest wound is completely believable. Anyone saying otherwise is a neckbeard who's never picked up a weapon in their life.

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>>53691189

>>53694388

It doesn't fit the fantasy of only a master can defeat a master.

>>53691189
Well, they do say "Write what you know"

>>53693924

The children of Hurin is from Finnish mythology, Kullervo from the Kalevala epic.

>>53691372
Michael Moorcuck strikes again

>>53691533
The pen of a single Scotsman in Prague is keeping it alive:

http://www.williamking.me/

>>53694388
>with discipline problems and a gaping chest wound is completely believable
The fact that he's willing to toy with Finn shows that this isn't relevant.
He's clearly not injured enough to be at imminent risk of death or collapse, or he'd have killed both the moment he could rather than extending the fight out of a desire for revenge.
Neither is his skill compromised, as he one shotted Finn the moment he proved to be a slight threat. The most you could get from that is that his judgement is compromised slightly.

Had Rey instead been around Luke's level in ESB, this would have been perfectly justifiable. after all, how many times have you seen the plucky novice exploit the more skilled opponent's lack of control?

>>53693328
You actually prove my point not dispute it but thanks for trying.

As fantasy and sci fi became popular game genres this is where those fanbases went. Instead of reading about an adventure they could now have one. This meant the book market was made up of an even larger female demographic so the demographics change the style of the writing.

You make the mistake of thinking I'm some how upset or jealous about this. I'm not, I have access to decades of great writing I don't even know exists yet. On /t/ I can find 600 gig of ebooks to read from just the 60s and every decade now has a collection the same size. I don't care if modern fiction is made for women and pozzed to hell because I still have older better stuff to read. You're trying to make an emotional argument in a logical conversation.

If Market A leaves then market B is now larger. What Market B likes will decide what is produced. It's the same reason TV is in the state it is, The youth isn't there any more so it's all appealing to middle age house wives.

>>53694421
It clearly isn't a fantasy of only a master can defeat a master, it's a fantasy of a plucky underdog can defeat a master.
(whether or not it succeed is another question)

>>53692153
>add another hole to your belt
Had to do it twice in a year, I'm on my way.

>>53694527
Novices are the most dangerous opponents for a master. It sounds strange but masters learn to duel, they learn from experienced fighters who try to protect themselves while they attack. A novice won't know how to do this and will just zerg rush them down with no thought of defense which requires a very different fighting style not to get hurt. Consider a street brawl VS a fencing match and how those things differ.

There's a historic record of the English and French soldiers dueling. The French expected a duel where as the English just ran them down. They had no way to prepare for it and the superior swordsman died to pure aggression.

>>53691189
It all makes sense now

>>53694633
That's an interesting point, but not really applicable to the scene, since Kylo was winning until the saber lock

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>>53693924
You're all wrong. Disdain of Tolkien comes from how generic he made the field when the people he really admired, namely Poul Anderson, tried to push the boundaries of fantasy.

That's his problem.

>>53694538

That's a lot of bullshit to try to obscure the simple point that if people were to buy the kind of books you like, they wouldn't be disappearing. And yeah, some fantasy authors have been folding romance in to draw the romance readers, it's what you do when your genre is dying, like grabbing a life preserver as the ship goes down. It's not romance readers' fault, its fantasy readers' fault for not buying books anymore. (and conversely its fantasy writers' fault for being so bad)
And you admit even you don't buy books, which means you're actually part of the problem you're decrying.

>>53694527

>The fact that he's willing to toy with Finn shows that this isn't relevant. He's clearly not injured enough to be at imminent risk of death or collapse, or he'd have killed both the moment he could rather than extending the fight out of a desire for revenge.

I'm not who you're arguing with, but this point is bullshit. Kylo Ren is a darksider who desires to carry on the legacy of the Dark Lords of the Sith. Saying that he obviously would not have acted like an arrogant self-defeating tool if he was REALLY hurt is specious, Darksiders do that shit ALL THE TIME. And Ren is a whiny teenage emo which makes him ten times more predisposed to acting that way. We see battle-hardened veteran force users with decades of experience allow arrogance to get the better of them when fighting perceived weaklings in various Star Wars works, and you expect us to buy that Cry-lo Ren would be more businesslike in handling himself? Come the fuck on buddy.

The idea that his wounds weren't compromising his skills is also pretty half-baked. The fact that adrenaline and focus could allow him to fight better than shit for a handful of minutes once he gets serious does not mean he was at full power. Unless you assume that he NEEDED to be at 100% to gank Finn in one move and like, 35% wasn't sufficient for that.

>>53694816
Well, then the problem's not Tolkien - Tolkien didn't sit there with a 'Save the Cat'-style formula to crank his story out, he went to the sources. It's the guys after him that just started checking off boxes.
Moorcock should've been bitching about Terry Brooks. But that would've taken, I dunno, effort?

>>53694816
>Tolkien
>wrote so well, other people copied him
>somehow this is his fault

So Tolkien fanfiction is good enough to be professionally published, it's nearly a genre of its own even. While GRRM fanfiction is...shit. GRRM loses this competition too.

>>53691189
Ebin

>>53694909
Literally no Dark Sider has ever been shown to be so retarded that they'll be willing to prolong a fight despite the fact that they know they will collapse and die. Because that's what bloodloss does to you.

>The fact that adrenaline and focus could allow him to fight better than shit for a handful of minutes once he gets serious does not mean he was at full power. Unless you assume that he NEEDED to be at 100% to gank Finn in one move and like, 35% wasn't sufficient for that.
The idea that someone who literally didn't know what the force was could then beat him by using the force, even while he was injured, is the point where it becomes absurdity.

>>53691721
Everyone already knows this but we've reached a weird point in 4chan's timeline where both idiots will constant repost bait, and simultaneously idiots will continue to respond to bait when they know it's bait.

I hate what this place has become.

>>53695070
I, too, miss quest threads on /tg/.

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>>53695037

>Literally no Dark Sider has ever been shown to be so retarded that they'll be willing to prolong a fight despite the fact that they know they will collapse and die.

HOLD MAH BEER!

>>53694980

He's talking about what Moorcock's problem with Tolkien was, not GRRM. GRRM's a bonafide Tolkien fanboy.
And I'm with him. Moorcock's got a valid point in there, but it's really Terry Brooks he should be excoriating.

>>53695070
Maybe it's not idiots, but 4chan itself. It feeds off your angst and hatred and must perpetuate the flamebait cycle to live.

>>53695103
Even Malak wasn't that stupid.

>>53695191
Given his greater experience he was almost certainly stupider.

>>53695217
Not to the point where he'd be willing to fight against a potentially dangerous opponent while Bleeding to death.
In fact, he was actually surprisingly cautious about that. He stacked the deck as much as possible when he tried killing Revan.

>>53691537
>Doesn't GRRM DM?
He's editor for an entire shared universe of books based on one of his campaign settings.

Oh, give it up. Kylo Ren was not even a real Sith, he was a crybaby failing at his Darth Vader cosplay.

>>53695334
And yet this crybaby somehow managed to slaughter Luke's entire new Jedi academy and force him to become a hermit to mope his failure.

If Kylo Ren is so awful, then what does it say of Luke?

>>53695361
I'm personally hoping that Luke could have fucked them all up any time he wanted, but was so pissed off that he was worried about falling to the dark side if he did.
And also that /tv/ is talking shit about the force sloth and penguins.

>>53695361

We all knew what Luke was when he was telling his dad about Toshi station and the power converters.

>>53695361
Surprise is a helluva thing.

>>53695361
It must be so hard to kill all those children.

>>53695361
Didn't he have a group of buddies (presumably the Knights of Ren)?

>>53691207
>but i can claim you as a dependent

solid FUCKING gold

>>53693577
>near weightless sword
Lightsabers are heavy as fuck. Only a trained jedi can proficiently wield one.

>>53695463

Killing children is a Skywalker specialty.

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>>53695463
He used Spinning, like his Grandfather.
It's a good trick

>>53694903
You're arguing my exact point and some how thinking this is disagreeing with me.

You can't buy fantasy books that aren't romance any more. They don't make them.

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>>53695541
>You can't buy fantasy books that aren't romance any more. They don't make them.

>>53691189
Let's go even deeper. Take the example of Samwell Tarly, smart, kind, but fat and a disappointment to his father. The only woman he can get is from his whiteknighting is trhe product of incest and has a kid the he will have to raise.

>>53695541
>You can't buy fantasy books that aren't romance any more
You mean... Song of Ice and Fire, Name of the Wind, and all others were secretly romance books all along?

>>53695592
Game of thrones doesn't count as a fantasy story. It's a fat fucks rambling about a midget

>>53695308
That's actually pretty cool.

>>53695565
>>53695592

He's got to be baiting, his argument just gets more ridiculous every time he posts.

>>53695105
GRRM doesn't read like a Tolkien fanboy.

He reads like a businessman. Pumping out exactly the kind of generic schlock people want. Because the more fantastical you make your fantasy story, the less money you make.

>>53695648
Because for all the edgyness that Song of Ice and Fire provides, it's really not that interesting of a series when you break it down.

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>>53695668
>Song of Ice and Fire
>edgyness

>>53692564
It's implied she's been fighting since she was a kid. Because the only other alternative was going hungry when somebody and their mates wanted her rations.

>>53695592
I knew Syl and Kaladin were actually fucking all along.
Bravo for the subtle innuendos, Sanderson

>>53695614
Somewhat accurate, i'll give you that

>>53694421
Kylo is not a master

>>53695584
We can generally say that all fat characters, at least to the point that I read, in song of ice and fire and either pathetic, self-loathing, miserable or all of the above.

>>53695867
Then how'd he beat up Luke?

>>53695896
We don't know and it's asinine to speculate.

>>53694628
Buy a new belt you slovenly fuck.

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>>53691533
>>53691746
Because the way we behave and have characters behave towards that fictional race too closely reflect how we behave towards actual races in real life. Even if in universe it's justified it still comes off as very ugly and encourages that ugliness in us. It creates a weird fictional scenario where genocide is justified, where humanish being can be treated like animals. Killing babies isn't noble in this world, it's very hard to find a way to make it noble in any palatable sense. Maybe it is in some alternate fantasy world but that's not the world I'll visit for heroism or glory or nobility. A world were genocide is good just doesn't click with my sense of morality.

LotR could work with evil goblins because it wasn't about killing or domination. The characters didn't generally revel in murder or looting, they just wanted to complete their quest. Goblins were just on obstacle to be overcome.
There are still stories were the characters can be justified in killing their foes but in most cases the justification is that their enemies are bad people. It has nothing to do with race but it's remains very effective.

>tl'dr
Sure it's all fantasy but the way it lines up with our reality makes for something grotesque. Treating people like animals and committing genocide just doesn't ring true to my sense of heroism or the sense of heroism of the people I want to play with.
I want to be Indiana Jones not the Nazis.

>>53695896
Maybe Luke was away at the time.

>>53695890
What about Manderly? He's pretty jolly.

>>53695993
We're talking about Star Wars here, go away.

>>53691533
Fuckers like George RR martin completely missing the point of fantasy as a genre.

>>53695993
Whoever first referred to fantasy creatures as "races" made a huge mistake, because people will always act as if the difference between elves and orcs is exactly the same as the difference between black people and asians.

Orcs aren't a subtle genetic subset of humanity caused by breeding over the years in a different climate. They're the evil spawn of the lord of darkness. They're supposed to represent some infinite force of badness.

Elves aren't just fair skin and pointy ears. They're inherently magical angel-like immortals.

Trying to make a fantasy world like real life is going against what fantasy means.

>>53695993
>not wanting to be nazis in current year

>>53695896

We don't know that he did. All we do know is that Luke didn't just say "Welp, my nephew's turned to the dark side, time to murder him" but instead stepped back, maybe hoping that Kylo would get it together and stop being a little shit before he ran headlong to his oncoming death. Being a Jedi master means that sometimes you take a long view. Sith (and sith wannabes) snarl up fate in the here and now, and they can surprise you, but they also have a blatant tendency to defeat themselves if you're careful and patient.

>>53695592
Name of the Wind is directly romance. Half of the book is about the main character being a beta to a whore

>>53696254
Somebody post it

>>53695492
They're not heavy. All the mass is concentrated in the grip.

>>53696369
Lucas literally described them as "Heavy swords, like Excalibur" and flat out denied Hamill using his lightsaber with one hand. They're heavy weapons.

>>53696003
>Too fat to ride horses, a passtime he used to love
>Is made fun off by his own subjects
Pathetic

>>53691189
George Rape Rape Martin on suicide watch.

What's going to happen when he dies of a heart attack before he finishes his book series?

>>53696615
>What's going to happen when he dies of a heart attack before he finishes his book series?
Nothing of value will be lost.

>>53696487
Lucas has been BTFO'd by both Eu Canon and Nu Canon so many times that he is hardly an authority anymore

>>53696615
>What's going to happen when he dies of a heart attack before he finishes his book series?
He's been pretty adamant about not wanting the series finished by another author.

>>53696615
the tv series will finish it

>>53696183
Yeah but elves are usually portrayed as people with pointy ears. Orcs usually end up being portrayed as people as well. Yeah they aren't SUPPOSED to be people but under most writers and most GMs they wind up being people. This makes it "kill'em'all" a weird scenario under writing like this because it just comes off racism.

As I said Tolkien worked because for the most part Orcs were left mostly vague in their nature and personality and the main cast wasn't particularly concerned with wiping them out unless they were being an active threat.
But elves were still pretty much people, immortal spirit people but still people. Same goes for dwarves and hobbits. Maybe they are generically different but they act human and that's what counts.
It's not about blood it's about behaviour if it acts like a person it will evoke empathy and be deserving of the treatment we give people.

>Trying to make a fantasy world like real life is going against what fantasy means.
Fantasy is a tool used to tell a story and we need some mooring to help us understand what's going on. Despite magic and alternate histories most fantasy world are very much like our own. The people in them act like people, they might be ideal people or mockeries of people but they are still recognisable if the writing is half decent. For us the people and they way they behave really is the most important part no matter the window dressing.

We can have writing that makes all sorts of alien thing look normal and have good look bad and bad look good but it is going to be alienating. It might be a good experimental work I'm sure but I'd ask why? You can justify it as fantasy being fantasy but at the end of the day the work exists in our world and in our world that shit just doesn't fly.

>>53696628

EU canon doesn't count unless it's reinforced by Disney canon.

>>53696615
He apparently took precautions to avoid another Wheel of Time situation.

>>53691189
I'm sure this will get plenty of upvotes on reddit

>>53696657
I'd argue that the nonhuman races should be inherently alien and different, the sort you can't just treat like real life - or else they'll just come down as humans with pointy ears or something, and you might as well have replaced them with humans from the start.

>>53696628
>OT isn't canon

>>53696657
>Yeah but elves are usually portrayed as people with pointy ears.
Yes, and those people are portraying them wrong.

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>>53696650
Even if it ends exactly like the books would end the massive differences on the road to that ending will give the endings completely different implications.

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>>53696854
Do you have one with Euron?

>>53696697
Well it depends on what you're trying to accomplish in your story.
A pointy eared human can work just fine if you want a people who have grown as a culture under fantastical conditions. The pointy ears or tusks are just another interesting bit to show their odd ways, in the same vein that regular humans can be dark or light or with slanting eyes. These are just reimaginings of ourselves in another world. Which can be interesting because we are interesting and worthy of exploration.
Even in myth most non-humans had odd ways but ultimately had human desires and drives. They did fucked up shit sometimes but nothing worse or stranger than what humans could already do. In many cases Elves were an old race of Men who came before the Gaels they had loves and losses and hates and homes like anyone else but on a fantastic scale.

And of course alien beings can be written well too. Like in 2001 one or Lovecraft (when he was on his game) it can imply a much wider universe.

But choosing ether just for the sake of whatever will result in a bad story. I'v seen "thier alieeeen and inhuuuuman" used so many times without any real purpose other than to be different.
As I said before, fantasy is just an element injected into a story told by humans to say something or give some kind of experience. There is no stone tablet saying how everything must be portrayed. And there is no dept we owe to the fantasy genre to make things weird. For a lot of stories what's called for is an odd human, yours might call for an inhuman. It's a matter of the right thing at the right time.

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>>53697019
Nah. I rarely browse /tv/.

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>>53697189

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>>53697213

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>>53697233
That's the ones I've got saved.

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>>53697189
>Stannis burns Shireen
Wot?

>>53697273
Show only.

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>>53697309
It fucking better be.

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>>53691189

>>53691052
Good thread and all, I just feel the uncontrollable urge to mention that this fat piece of shit needs to die and preferably in a horrifying and painful way. I get the compulsion anytime I see his smug, fat fucking face.

>>53696854
what about jeyne westerling?

I love how Robb literally threw away everything because he fell in love with a hipster contrarian from volantis.

>>53697400
>I don't like a guys books
>he should die painfully

How's middleschool treatin' ya?

>>53697400

You sound like you've got serious mental problems, dude. Like that ain't a healthy reaction at all.

>>53697428
Not much more stupid than the book version desu.

>>53697457
I understand than in the book Robb did it out of sheer honor which is understandable because his father also ended up getting killed becaue of honor.

But in the show it's out of sheer stupidity.

>>53697521
Every bit as stupid as no one being there at Robb's sickbed to prevent him from literally screwing everything up.

>>53691189
I hope someone caps this.
>>53696487
lucas is an idiot
also how fucking heavy is excalibur itself?
i mean perhaps the more modern myth of

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>>53697820
Best I could do.

>>53697898
Wow. What a shit screencap. Don't make it that wide.

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>>53697921
How do I... oh yeah, I can just size up the browser itself. Silly me.

Second try.

>>53691864
>but slabery id ebbil! she just a liberator! A troo hero!

etc., etc.

>>53697972
Way better, anon. Great job.

>>53697434
Did I strike a nerve? Take a second to calm yourself.

Done? Cool. Thanks for assuming I didn't like his books. They were okay. I don't like that fat assclown because he sold out his fans so he could have a tv show. This piece of shit is rich because of us and he can't even make an effort to finish a book in under a decade. Instead he pours all 5000 pounds of himself into that unwatchable show while us bookfags wait for something we'll never get.

As for him dying, even if I was being serious about wanting him dead it's not like it won't happen very soon since he's fat as fuck and old as shit. And when his over-sized, greasy soul slides out of his gaping ass chasm and becomes one with the McDonalds dollar menu in the sky any hope of ever seeing a real continuation of ASoIaF that isn't pieced together by some other barely decent writer like with WoT will go with him.

So fuck him, and fuck you too.

>>53697445
>>53697434
>wheredoyouthinkyouare.jpg

>>53698256
>Instead he pours all 5000 pounds of himself into that unwatchable show while us bookfags wait for something we'll never get.
The only show related thing he's spent any time on since season 3 or 4 is promotional stuff. He even stopped writing an episode per season to focus on the books.

>>53693482
if I recall correctly, there were originally tens if not hundreds of Balrogs but Tolkien later decided to make it just a handful. Maybe it was make them more intimidating/powerful like how a single Balrog essentially destroyed the kingdom of Moria.

>>53698446
I don't know about that. I think the idea that a single Balrog being able to destroy the greatest modern dwarven kingdom, then hearing there used to be hundreds of them swarming about and it not being an especially big deal, would cast the entirety of the old days, its ancient heroes and wars, as some pretty damn epic shit of which the current age is but a shadow.

>>53692930
yes, but >>53692953

>>53691189
Put me in the screencap, reddit

>>53699584
Kill yourself

>>53699858
upvoted, good sir XD