Warhammer 40,000 General /40kg/

First for Commorragh!

first for squats!

>>53625700
>Will you try to list build around command points? How important are they?
If it only requires small adjustments then yes I will always try to snag extra command points. The re-rolls are absolutely vital for some armies.

>>53625700
Fourth for CAWL IS A HERETEK

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reminder that blood angel assault squads dont get melta guns

>>53625726
What the fuck are these command points?

How is it that the rules for 8th edition 40k leak and suddenly 7th edition apologist pour out of nowhere to argue that it wasn't "that bad" and "the whole system didn't need to be scrapped" - YES IT DID. The whole system was fatally flawed, a few tweaks here and there were not enough to fix it.

Agree or Disagree?

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>>53625700
With the new ed coming out looks like my Orks are gonna be gudt again
Whats a good alternative to carrying all these pieces of shit around though?
My old GW case broke and i dont want to risk taking these fuckers around in sandwich containers.

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>>53625700
First for Orks are the new Taudar

>>53625743
Agree

>>53625734
Dude. Chill your nuts. We've got bigger problems to sort first, or did you not notice the GIANT CHAOS GASH ACROSS THE SKY?

>>53625739
Meltaguns are not that important any more and assault squads exist for anti-infantry work anyway.

>>53625743
Agree. I am coming back to 40k for this new edition specifically because they gave up on so much dumb shit that had piled up over previous editions.

So If I'm not reading this incorrectly, Knight Commander Pask can give orders to Tank Commanders and even to himself.

Since he can order twice on his turn, he may do well with himself and a friendly tank commander, (ideally ordering himself and other if I'm not nuts).

Anyone else can confirm this reading?

>>53625743
I have yet to see any 7th apologists. Just people saying how nice 8th is. Some people are hitching that some things are gone, but we all know stuff will come back later.

>>53625743
Agree.
They could only rehash 3rd edition so many times before the rules bloat became unbearable. I genuinely like most of the changes to 8th edition, even some of the ones that had me saying wtf at first.

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In the current fuckfest that is 7th edtion, who wins guys?? Say 2000 pts?

>>53625743
Disagree. I know I'm in the minority, though. I like complexity and moving parts and weird rules interactions. I loved making DnD 3.5 characters in the day, and I loved making 7e lists for the same reason.

>>53625775
orks, tbqh

I'm pondering squad sizes - is there any real point to running, say, a ten-man unit of Raptor over two five-man ones anymore?

100 PL list, battalion detachment

Captain
Terminator librarian

Tactical squad
Tactical squad
Guard infantry squad

Vanguard with jump packs
Contemptor dreadnought
Cataphractii terminators

Assault marines in a razorback

Predator
Predator
Vindicator

I figure the guard squad there is part of a garrison that the space marines are showing up to reinforce.

Are Warlocks and Farseers still as good as FLG says?

>Farsight's area buff of rerolls 1s applies EVERY phase if you're versing orks for ANY unit nearby

lol, bunch of different factions have anti-ork rules, but not much else hatred-equivalents

>>53625775
Da gitz wif da most dakka win

>>53625793
You gain more from IGOUGO melee but you're more vulnerable to losing more dudes from failed morale tests.

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Is my points calculations for the Death Guard side of the new starter box accurate?

>>53625741
They're a new mechanic for 8e. You start with 3 of them and can get more by taking more restricted detachments. They give you rerolls, or auto-passing morale.

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Fuck all y'all. I like the primaris marines (yes, even THOSE ones)

>>53625809
It's pretty nice, but at the same time all it really means is any squad next to Farsight gets the 1 Markerlight benefit against Orks with their shooting.

>primaris sets are already on ebay

>>53625824
I like them too, and I never liked marines before.

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>>53625700
Had a couple of 8th ed games today. Pic related was a 1500pt game with my First Born Guard vs a wraith construct army.

>>53625830

It is funny how orks are heavily on the receiving end of Hatred.
It rerolls 1's in fighting and overwatch, applying to infantry, tanks, and battlesuits.

>>53625654

Sisters are my first/main army, and you really shouldn't underestimate the holy bolter. Take a squad of 15 with a storm bolter, heavy bolter, and combi-flamer, and you will see what a first turn AoF is like, especially with a nearby cannoness. You can either nuke a squad right away or blitz forward 12"(after normal move) and nuke a squad anyway. Failing that, MM or HB Retributers love rerolling 1s.

Immolators in my opinion should be back to the 3rd/4tg edition ways of BURNANATING because we can move 12+d6 inches and do 2d6 heavy flamer shots because fuck you.

How can I combine DV and DI Chaos side to make a cool Nurgle army?

>>53625743
I think the main wave of complaints came when the indexes were leaked. As much as the massive rule bloat was awful, people liked he flavour of their individual army and the options they had within it, and there is no denying that some of that has been lost. Whether we get it back with the codices is yet to be seen. I'm digging it anyway.

>>53625824
They look much better in person than in photos.

The artwork of them is worse when compared to other marines imo.

T.guy who started BA 1 week before 8th rumours and am hyped for primaris BA

>>53625754
Or how about the fact that

>Cawl is trying to revive traitor legions and lost 2nd legion
>Gully no longer trusts him
>Cawl has an A.I.
>Cawl is acting on his own
>Cawl is repeatably requesting to become Fabricator General of Mars
>Cawl consorts with Abominable Xenos Necrons
>Cawl has repeatably ignored orders
>Cawl hides technology and secrets from all

We must deal with the looming heresy within our borders before we crumble entirely.

>>53625726
Some cheaper armies are going to start tacking up on the command points. Orks can make a battalion fairly easily and still have points left over for another detachment's CP. I could definitely see myself coming to a game with 13 CP for rerolls.

Is still yet another advantage for horde armies that we haven't talked about yet? Or is it just evening things out since hordes tend to roll more dice and thus need more rerolls to mechanically break even?

>>53625848
How was it like to fight a Wraithknight in 8th? They seemed a bit toned down from what I am reading.

Where is the rule stopping me from using the auxiliary support detachment to mix factions?

Can I take a GK battalion detachment and supplement that with 3 tau auxiliary support detachments?

>>53625870
Easy, convert everything DV into Nurgle. Chosen become Plague Marines, Cultists become Poxwalkers, Helbrute stays a Helbrute, etc.

>>53625893

GW anti-fun rules
gonna have to leave the fun ALLIES army for open/narrative

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Just got done playing a 2k game of 8th edition, ultramarines vs ad mech.
It was planetfall, which is the first time I've played that mission (because be honest, how often did you play that stuff in 7th), Ultramarine termies led by guilliman attacking skit mech.
Some highlights/notes on 8th
>deep striking termie lists are super viable now. The ability to charge out of deep strike is a huge advantage that makes them so much better, deathwing may win tournaments now, esspecially when paired with the unkillable beast that is the land raider.
>the changes to AP are definitely for the better, not that anyone really disagrees AFAIK. It has gone a long way to making 3+ and 2+ actually mean something, esspecially in cover.
>termies are dead 'ard killy. Putting out 20 bolter shots and then charging in with chainfists hitting first will obliterate most units
>melee over all is super viable now. It's no longer just a long slog hoping to have some guys left to attack by turn 2 or 3. Getting in is much easier (esspecially since rhinos and land raiders are quite durable), and you do a lot more damage when you get in
>fulgerites are killy for you ad mech players out there. They shit out mortal wounds and killed Bobby G before they got anhilated by thunderhammer termies. He got up next round, but still
>also, command points matter. The reroll to hit and go next in combat stratagem are super useful. I found myself forgetting them the first few games and that was a mistake, they can change the course of the game immensely. Can't wait to see how the codexes add to them

All in all, can't wait for 8th edition, first time in a long time the first company has laid low foul heretics and not been tabled in a turn or two.

>>53625743
Agree, definitely agree. Melee was fucked, morale was useless, vehicles were never going to be good without major overhaul and the game was way too bloated. GW did real good by changing it from the ground up, 8th might be the funnest wargame they've made.

>>53625749
>tfw been playing orks since first got into game
>tfw literally left the hobby for years because of how shit they were in 7th
>tfw I'm going to be called a band-wagoning WAACfag for playing 100+ footsloggers in 1000 point games

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so has anyone found a use for Dire Avengers? They seem overpriced, frail, and not worth it to me.

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I recently managed to acquire an absurd amount of Crisis Suits for really really cheap but I'm torn /tg/. I've always liked the appeal of playing Mobile Suit 40k and their lore (it's a nice pallet cleanser compared to my Emperor's Children and Deldar), but after suffering 7th ed vs Tau the last thing I want to do is roll all over everyone I play with because my army is broken.

tl;dr, going into 8th Edition, do Tau look any less ridiculous than they did before? Do you think 8th ed did a decent job balancing them so far?

2000 point list. Going to be fighting Tyranids and CSM most likely, plus some guard, SM, orks, and tau.

Battalion detachment

HQ:
Captain (Relic blade, storm bolter) 97 pts
Librarian in terminator armor (Storm bolter, force stave) 161 pts

Troops:
Tactical squad with gravgun, plasma cannon and combi-flamer, 175 pts
Tactical squad with plasmagun, missile launcher, combi-flamer, 179 pts
Infantry squad with flamer and autocannon, bolter sergeant, 63 pts

Fast attack:
5 assault marines with 2 flamers and a power sword, 87pts
Razorback (TL assault cannon, storm bolter) 102 pts

Elites:
5 sternguard, 95 pts
Razorback(Lascannon, TL plasmagun) 110 pts
Contemptor dreadnought (DCCW, combi-bolter, Multimelta) 167pts
5 cataphractii terminators. sgt with combi-bolter and power sword, 1 with heavy flamer and

power fist, 1 with combi-bolter and power fist, 2 with double lightning claws, 241pts
5 vanguards with jump packs. Sgt with thunder hammer + storm shield, 3 with bolt pistol + power sword, 1 with bolt pistol + chainsword, 134 pts

Predator with TL lascannon and 2 heavy bolters, 172
Leman russ (Battle cannon, lascannon, 2 HBs) 190 pts
Heavy Weapons Squad with 3 mortars, 27pts

>>53625700
>Thread Question: Will you try to list build around command points? How important are they?

Having played a few games of 8th and watching a squad of 30boys steal the charge bonus out from under someone, yes. Command points are very potent. If you only have 3 or 4 and your opponent has 6+, you are at a pretty noticeable disadvantage that you will feel once he auto passes 2 moral save against your heavy shooting when they should have been swept.

>>53625908
Where is the rule though? It says in eac detachment that the detachment has to be all the same faction, but it doesn't say anything about mixing detachment fations.

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>>53625700
>Finishing up my guard army
>Planing to have 1 troop choice be a platoon blob
>Second troop choice to be Vets in a Chimera
>Vets are no longer troops
>Can no longer shoot from Chimeras
God damn it. I wanted to be able to focus on tanks finally but noooo, now I need another troop choice again.

>>53625861
So far I have a 500 point list and 1500 point list written up, and my general plans so far were to dedicate first-turn Acts of Faith letting Multi-Melta Retributors blitz upfield and reach choice cover, becoming a 24" radius fuck-you turret to anything that feels like eating 8-16 Melta shots, depending on hoe the Imagifiers are feeling, with a Cannoness near

or feed the Act of Faith to Celestine, who feeds a free one to Seraphim, and be a huge blob of melee-range distraction reaching the enemy front line turn 1

or both, depending on imagifiers.

A prototype 2000 point list I was working on had Heavy Bolter Retributors backed by a naked Cannoness, but it's not that I underestimate the holy bolter - I just feel like if I'm playing Sororitas, it'd be wrong to rely on anything other than PURGING FLAME

Im also not.... super psyched about the Exorcist in 8e, and on the fence about how to properly utilize Ministorum units It feels like there's a lot getting in the way of this army's intended synergy

>>53625888
Yes, by making Cawl the Fabricator General. Problem solved.

>Three Repulsor grav-tanks fell from the sky like stones, decelerating rapidly and coming to a gentle halt a couple of metres above the ground
guys, what if Repulsors can deep strike

>>53625756
Too bad if I have 4 dudes modeled with meltaguns

>>53625944
I'm sorry to hear that, however

Scions are awesome, are troops and Taurox Primes are awesome as well. Just pick up a SC Militarum box and you're good to go.

>>53625893
No shared keyword.
Which is good, taudar cancer and CtA allies was a trash system. There needs to be a limit on allies, no point in even having fluff if I can ally coateaz with my eldar to give me a major advantage.
It was just as bad as shit like thunder cannon stars: unfluffy and illogical.

>>53625808
Farseers still have shenanigans to avoid perils. Perils are very powerful so avoiding them is a big boon. Their powers are similar to the old classics too so they will work in a similar way. They cannot get away with the same move power move business as in 7th but the closest model rule should keep them safe.

Warlocks get to attach to any unit now, not just guardians so I can see them being used all the time.

>>53625943
Under matched play rules.

>>53625930
No one will be mad at you for playing Tau in 8th edition. You're now what Orks and Nids were in 7th edition.

>>53625944
Well, you're in luck actually. Basic guardsmen can't Platoon anymore, so those 50 bodies are now 5 separate troop choices.

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What do you guys think of this mission and how it treats Heavy Support units? I think it's creative that they give unique benefits and draw backs to
units based upon the missions and battlefield role. Also if tournaments use random mission selection then it will have interesting consequences for peoples' tournament lists.


>>53625848
Has the lack of D taken the edge off of the wraith army?

>>53625981
It'll just be imperium and eldar with the superfriends lists.

>>53625823
Are you allowed to have negative points?

Is taking multiple Primaris Rhinos a decent way to combine arty with transports?

>>53626025
I don't believe anything specifically says such, but there's only one detachment that lowers your points and I can't imafine spamming it.

>>53626025
Don't see why not but I don't know why you would.

New to 40k with friends old Blood Angels army + starter kit.

I have two Baal Predators I could field. What are pros and cons of Flamer vs Autocannon configuration? I will probably have a primarily Death Company list and was assuming it would make sense to just go with double autocannon to balance out all of the close combat.

Main concern is going to be anti-vehicle capability. I have 3 Dreads I could use but I have no idea how easy it is to get them close enough to punch tanks.

Suggestions for anti-vehicle for Blood Angels? Just equip Death Company with power weapons?

>>53626019
Not in matched play. Superfriends is dead no matter what, and you can't ally eldar and imperials, they share no keywords AFAIK. And if you try to use the wu tang clan get around your opponent will punch you in the throat and you'll deserve it.
>inb4 elf loving Guilliman memes

>>53625889
Tournaments at least will probably have a limit on the number of detachments you can bring, but matched play only lets you use each stratagem once per-phase.

The only re-roll the core three stratagems currently offer only lets you re-roll one dice so it's rather nice but I'm not sure it will make or break some armies.

>>53626002
>Well, you're in luck actually. Basic guardsmen can't Platoon anymore, so those 50 bodies are now 5 separate troop choices.
They have completely removed the platooning mechanic?

Hu. Well I guess my Commissar isn't much use any more but it is probably good 50 guys are no longer 1 troop choice.

>>53626055
I meant that imperium can mix and match and eldar can mix and match, not both together.

>>53625925
Don't worry about it, friend. You deserve to win with DA BOYZ

>>53626005
>What do you guys think of this mission and how it treats Heavy Support units? I think it's creative that they give unique benefits and draw backs to
> units based upon the missions and battlefield role. Also if tournaments use random mission selection then it will have interesting consequences for peoples' tournament lists.

its almost the same as 6th edition-- cept this edition punishes AM, who are going to give up alot of points as their heavy weapons squads are really squishy...

im a big fan of big guns never tire so im happy

>>53625908
What? You need to read the rules, see anywhere that it says that you can't replace the <Chapter> keyword with Chaos, or replace the <Legion> on Chaos Space Marines with Dark Angels?
No, because you can replace those keywords with almost any keyword you like, you could even have Company Commanders order Khorne Berserkers with Fix Bayonets! to have them attack 4 times in a turn, while a nearby Haemonculus boosts their Toughness to 5!

It's all rule legal too until they FAQ it, but till then you can have the Lost & The Damned or Chaos worshiping Orks and Eldar like in Rogue Trader.

Went to the store and played a game with a friend, 75 power lists so as to not fuck around with exact points values since points at rear is cancer. I brought kharn, a khorne lord, three rhinos filled with berserkers and two lascannon predators. He brought a wolf lord on doggo, a wolf guard on the same, three big units of thunderwolves, and two squads of wolf scouts that i ignored to my detriment

Vehicles really do not die easily, most of the time i weathered a turn of melee and then popped out to charge the wolves. Kharn is meh, i'm pretty sure another regular lord or a daemon prince would do his job better. Berserkers are good in combat-s6 is an excellent strength, wounding on 3+ is great-but they're quite fragile. Predators felt like a waste of points, pinging lascannons off storm shields all game, but i'm reserving judgement on them until i actually face enemy vehicles-i'd rather not have to try and chop up a baneblade/monolith/land raider with chainaxes. I feel footslogging is possible if you really horde it up, but other armies will probably do that better-looking at you, nids and orks.

He ended up winning, but we had both went through a bunch of combat and it was close. His wolf-guards thunderwolves charged kharns unit after they won a grueling combat where his wolf lord took kharn down to two wounds, after which kharn got pasted. Turn four i had my two predators, one nearly-full squad of berserkers plus lord and a rhino that were squatting on an objective, but all the rest of his thunderwolves-both of the surviving big units were damaged but still enough to slaughter me, especially on the charge-were closing in and his scouts had two of three objectives, so we called it so other people could play. Overall a fast game, wouldnt have been much more than a bit over an hour and a half. Typing wolf this much gave me cancer, why cant they have more imaginative naming sense?

>>53626055
>And if you try to use the wu tang clan get around your opponent will punch you in the throat and you'll deserve it.
This is it. This is the future we chose. We collectively, as a fandom, decided to make this sentence sensible.

I'm proud of all of you.

>>53626056
well the reason that I say 13 is that I was building a list earlier for Orks with a battalion and a fliers detachment. 3 base + 9 from battalion + 1 from fliers is 13 CP, and that's only 2 detachments.

The best way to get CP is by taking the superhuge detachments, not by spamming the small ones. So tournaments that have a limit on the number of detachments are not really going to holding back people from generating tons of CP.

>>53626066
Well, you're also also in luck, because a Commisar gives his benefits to any infantry unit within 6" of him, so if you bundle up your squads, they still can use a better leadership score and get shot in the head as normal

Anyone have thoughts on how to give Guardsmen a little more bite in CC? I'm not impressed with options so far.

>>53625954

MM rets will be fragile, especially without ablative bodies, but I'm telling you now that you need to throw the 7th edition mindset in the trash and realize that 4 MM will not reliably kill a rhino. Stationary gives 3 hits, 2 wounds, and 7 damage via math hammer, but having seen it first hand, it holds true. The double tap will obviously help.

A naked canoness is a waste. Give her a combi-weapon or a stormbolter and let her shoot things with her 2+ BS while giving preferred enemy. Exorcists are sketchy; I agree. I've actually been shying away from them for awhile due to reliability issues, which 8th did not help.

If you want to properly burn things, take a 10 girl squad of SoS with flamers and watch your opponent shit themselves from 10d6 shots that they can't even assault. I plan on running a full squad of flamer and great sword SoS alongside my SoB, though we'll see what happens later with Codex keyword stuff.

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>>53625890
The Knight wasn't to scary. His shooting did quite an bit of damage to my Basilisk and Wyvern. But he couldn't survive the guards shooting onslaught and finely fell to the humble lasgun.

>>53626067
Ah. Makes much more sense. But at least that is fluffy to a certian degree.

>>53626056
The rules for matched play already include guidelines for limits on the number of detachments. 3 for 2000 points, which looks like the new standard. Reece and frankie all but confirmed that it's what ITC will be moving to, and I'd imagine most other tournaments will follow suit.

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Are Helbrutes the best melee walker? They move 8", don't degrade, hit on 3+ and can get a whooping 8 attacks with the Power Scourge.

Should I take them with my Berzerker horde?

>>53626066
they work as an aura so it's easy enough for one commissar to manage 5 squads.

>>53626098
> Full Battalion AND Flyer Wing

At how many points? That's impressive at 2k or less

>>53626129
I can't wait to see what my Dreadclaw does in 8th, and if it can still carry a HB, I'm going to shit myself in excitement. I don't see why it can't because even in HH, Claws can carry dreads.

>>53626126
My only issue with it is being able to mix inside detachments, so you could use guardsman to help fill out a brigade for space marines for extra CP.

>>53626093
Eh, if it wasn't that it spuld be bullshit like "all my units have the character keyword, so it's battle forged" or some such bullshit, and it would cause such a problem GW would have to FAQ it because people are tards. And 7th edition allies was broken, better this than that mess.

>>53626133
Orks have a lot of cheap units that easily fill up slots. Painboyz are elites, mek gunz are heavy support, gretchin troops, etc.

>>53626149
That's probably why they split it between normal keywords and Faction keywords

>>53626146
Yeah, but that will limit command points, strangers, chapter tactics and so on when we get codexes.
At least I assume, since that's what GW has hinted at.
You will be able to bring it, but it will screw you over in other ways.

>>53626125
>fell to the humble lasgun

Brings a tear to my eye, keep it up Commander, keep those Xenos at bay!

What's the word on vanilla marines? I haven't seen much about them concerning 8th; they keep getting overshadowed by the special chapters/Primaris.

Wanting to start up an Ultramarine force in 8th.

>>53625848
>>53626125
>vostroyanbro
how did your ogryn do?

Played a game with my admech last night against space clowns. Dragoons are hilarious. I absolutely love them. I don't regret the investment in a large group of them at all. The exploding sixes, the consistent +3 s on the lances, the fact that they have six wounds now, all absolutely beautiful. I love my fucking chicken walkers

>>53626168
Here's hoping.

>>53626182
>whats the word on vanilla marines
what do you mean?
they're the same as they've always been, except chapter tactics are dogshit

>>53626182
Manlet marines are still pretty good, way better than the thiccmarines, they had their bullshit toy the grav-cannon nerfed but they're still decent

>>53626161
Yeah, but when has stuff like that ever stopped people from being retarded. See: glued drop pod doors, tau butthurt over auto-removed stormsure, "can my blood angels take ultramarine relics" and all the idiocy of the 7th FAQ.

>>53626197
Honestly mostly concerning Tactical marines. I remember people saying they were actually pretty bad in 7th. I would like to know people's thoughts on the vanilla Captain, Assaults, Devs, and vanilla Dreadnoughts if y'all don't mind talking about 'em.

Are Power Fists still worth taking on MEQs? Hitting on 4+ is a huge nerf even on 3 attack champions.

>>53626189
I'm not sure how I feel about Jezzail Dragoons now though. On one hand they don't do 2 AP2 wounds on each 6 to wound anymore, on the other they do a free mortal wound on a 6, can move and shoot, and are reasonably durable for a sniper unit.

Neutron Onagers are pretty great though.

>>53626197
>except chapter tactics are dogshit
That's because they don't exist yet. I'm sure everyone will chill out when the Space Marine Codex drops and they get restored.

>>53626122
I was skeptical about greatsword SoS due to them not being buffable by a Priest or a Cannoness, but I'll have to consider it

my 1500 point list was something like

Celestine + 2 Geminae Superia
10-woman Seraphim squad with 4 Inferno Pistols, Superior has plasma pistol and power sword
Cannoness with Combi-Plasma
2 MM Ret squads, Superiors have Combi-Plasmas
2 Heavy Flamer ret squads in HF Immolators, Superiors have Combi-Flamers
4 Imagifiers
2 Hospitallers

basic plan was that the Cannoness, Hospitallers, and 2 Imagifiers glue themselves to the MM rets, feeding them acts of faith to let them set up in midfield cover and be a monster of a firebase, witht he cannoness giving the plasmas permanent overcharge permission and the imagifiers giving them the potential to just devour any multiwound model that dares get close, while the Immolators and HF Rets run interference against hordes, and the Seraphim + Celestine pull double duty as distraction carnifex, and sniping vehicles/VIPs that avoid the MM's threat radius

but I havent managed to put this into practice yet cause none of the folks I play with have gotten off their asses and written lists. Only one so far is a Deathwatch player who likes to keep things fluffy and refuses to play anything over 750

>death guard fluff says they use terminator armour a lot
>not part of their army list

HaaH WaaW

>>53626182
They're good. Especially Ultramarines wih Rowboat and Calgar.

>>53626246
We'll see.

>>53626182
What about them? We're still good, maybe even a bit better, since stuff like land raiders, Terminators, rhinos and so on are infinitely better, we no longer rely on grav or battle company to be our sole crutch that kept us viable.

I've played quite a few games of 8th with them now, so I'd be happy to answer any specific crunch questions you have about them

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>>53625700

>>53625700

Command points are hella powerful. In the game I played today, command points-

>kept my warlord alive by re-rolling an invuln save
>killed an enemy HQ by re-rolling a hit
>made a critical charge be re-rolling a charge die

I disliked the re-roll mechanic when I read it, but then I tried to think of how agonizing Blood Bowl would be without re-rolls. Sometimes you just really want/need something to happen, and being able to fight against randomness made it feel satisfying, I feel.

>>53626245
Do they have the sort of sniper weapon that can single out Characters?

Also what are AdMechs HQ options? Is it literally just the Dominus and nothing else? Am I going to need to get a second Dominus to take a Battalion?

>>53626144
I sure hope so. It's too fragile to make it across the table... At least Maulerfiends have an invuln.

>>53626034
Seriously is the satelite weapon good enough to justify using the primaris rhino?

>>53626250
Because they're getting a Cult Terminator kit soon reather than normal termies.

>>53626265
Cawl, Dominus, and Enginseer

>>53626265
All snipers can single out characters as far as I'm aware but yes, Jezzail Dragoons can single out characters and are still 2 shot weapons.

The only HQs AdMech has is Cawl and the Dominus. Hopefully they'll give us more in the full codex but for now it's a decent unit at least.

>>53626263
how many re-rolls can you do a turn??

>>53626262
Basically what I posted here>>53626226
Also now that I think of it, how are Rhinos and/or drop pods? I got that one drop pod + tactical set as my only transportation right now and it looks like mixing pods and Rhinos will be more of a thing with deep strike rules.

Also, how are stormtalons? I rather like the model and might end up picking one up.

>>53626129
I think I might need to grab a couple for my wubstep marines, scourge and plasma cannon

Of course, I'm hoping we get the option to take a Blastmaster again once the codex drops

>>53626263
>Sometimes you just really want/need something to happen, and being able to fight against randomness made it feel satisfying, I feel.
Definitely, they've proven super useful in my games. But then again, I'm happy just with fluffy marine lists being viable, neber thought I'd see the day where termies and tacs can win games

>>53626294
Enginseer is an elite now.

>>53626298
Once per phase

>>53626250
>People keep whining about Death Guard
>They're literally getting a full Codex release in a matter of weeks with a bunch of new kits, unique gear and units, Warlord Traits, Legion rules, Stratagems, Relics, and a fucking Primarch.

Holy shit shut the fuck up already and be patient. You're getting your own super-special Terminators+ like Thousand Sons have.

>>53626238
pls respond

>>53626245

Eh, I never played them as jezail platforms, so I really don't care about that. As far as I'm concerned they're meant for glorious melee combat.

In other news infiltrators are great. My infiltrators felt like elite cyborg assasins for the first time since I got them. Popped out behind them in turn two, unloaded twenty five shots and then ran into them with tasser goads with a reroll on the charge from cp. Absolutely erased their target. It was beautiful, and my opponent's reaction when he realized he'd left that key unit hanging out in the back unsupported and I declared that my infiltrators were emerging from the shadows and started placing the models down, absolutely priceless.

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>>53626161
Except most units get a Faction keyword that they can choose. See anything here stopping, say a Eldar player replacing their "Craftworld" keyword with "Drukhari" so they could use put Dark Reapers into a Raider and do drivebys with them? Besides common sense and reason?

>>53626238
Sure, kinda. Treat the PF as a sort of 'jack of all trades, master of none' thing.

Relic Blades are better in most cases, or power swords if you're skipping on price, and on the flip side Thunder hammers are best at tossing away chunks of vehicle wounds.

Stick it on a sarge or something for a good reliable bit of damage, but I'd take more specifically useful stuff on specifically useful units.

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Primarch Guilliman pictured bringing a wounded Yvraine to the Medicae during the Battle of Hera, Maccrage, M41

>>53626324
Wait they're getting a full codex? Wtf not even Thousand Sons got that much.

>>53626331
WHERE ARE THE DAMN GUILLIMANxYVRAINE LEWDS ALREADY?!

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Why are spawn so good in this edition?

>d6 S5 AP-2 D2 attacks
>all mutations are incredible
>debuff leadership

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>>53626005
>Has the lack of D taken the edge off of the wraith army?
I'd say so. They still put out the hurt, just less so now.
>>53626169
FRFSRF is even better now especially with orders auto-passing.

>>53626329
Whatever you replace <Craftworld> with is a <Craftworld> Keyword.

Wu Tang Clan doesn't work. Stop being stupid. The fact that GW is even going to need to FAQ this is sad, but they certainly will now that people are being dumb about it, in only days after release, so don't bother pretending to be retarded.

>>53626342
Look up PossiblyHereticalUltramarine on tumblr.

>>53626326
Power weapons are so much cheaper that I think they're the default instead. Might depend on your opponents though.

>>53626336
Thousand Sons got Wrath of Magnus which was effectively their Codex, but theirs was a little bit phoned in because they were coming at the tail end of 7th and GW was already focusing more on 8th.

Death Guard are the posterboy antagonists for 8th, they're in the starter set, their Codex is coming along with Mortarion and all their other new models we haven't seen (the starter kit is just the basics, it's not everything).

>>53626188
Didn't get a chance to use them today. Next time for sure.

>>53626275
>T7 8W 3+ no degrading stats
>Fragile

It's like you haven't played 8th yet and severely underestimate how durable that actually is.

>>53626329
Those <______> keywords that you get to create are not "faction" keywords, and thus do not qualify as the matching keywords for the purpose of detachments, just like I could not make a detachment of fliers from necrons, eldar and space marines just because they all have the fly and vehicle keywords.

>>53626129
Helbrutes are definitely nice now. If only they made them Daemonic they'd be stellar.

>>53626364
Not him, but i remember seeing an excel spreadsheet of the different power weapons on MEQs, can anyone post it?

>>53626353
I actually feel like they aren't as key as last edition. They don't move as fast, so they're less useful as a bodyguard for an HQ on a bike, and toughness 5 with multiple wounds isn't as key of a point for durability to make them great meatshields

Granted, now they seem scarier on their own, but they feel less key

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>>53626336
Pretty close. And why "not even"? Theyre both Cult legions.

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>>53626356
Can we just bask in the fact that this exploit is called 'The Wu Tang Clan Trick' for a second?

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>>53626363
> PossiblyHeretical
> Doing lewds
Pick one. If you want lewds, you'll want SisterOfSilence

>>53626300
>Honestly mostly concerning Tactical marines. I remember people saying they were actually pretty bad in 7th. I would like to know people's thoughts on the vanilla Captain, Assaults, Devs, and vanilla Dreadnoughts if y'all don't mind talking about 'em.
they sucked in 7th, have proven great for me in 8th. The changes to rhinos and AP makes tacs a whole lot more viable, turn one assault deep strike and melee changes make ass marines quite good, dreadnoughts are durable and definitely a worth while choice this edition, devs are good, I've had fun arming them with plasma.
Honestly, marines, from my experience, are basically entirely made of decent to great units now. From my playing, no unit has proven to be just a waste of space, and fluffy lists (as in tacs with a serg with plasma pistol, chain sword, flamers and heavy bolters type lists) have won me most every game I played.
As far as my experience goes, you can't really go wrong with marines this edition. Maybe time will prove me wrong, but that's what I've learned from the 10 or so games of 8th I've played
>Also now that I think of it, how are Rhinos and/or drop pods? I got that one drop pod + tactical set as my only transportation right now and it looks like mixing pods and Rhinos will be more of a thing with deep strike rules.
Rhinos are very good, durable, relatively cheap and fast. They get marines where they need to go, stay alive and are worth the points. Drop pods are not the auto take they were before, to expensive for that (which as a blood ravens player makes me sad, no more steel rain) but they're useful for transporting certian units with no other options for deep strike to get in enemy lines.
Both pale in comparison to the land raider though, it's an utter monster.
>Also, how are stormtalons? I rather like the model and might end up picking one up.
Don't know, I don't own one.

>>53626404
I've been doing that since it was first brought up, even though the rule argument itself is retarded, I still laugh every fucking time.

>>53625810
Wut if da ov'er boyz gotz more choppy?

Dis git finks 'es a brain boy

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>>53626372
>are not "faction" keywords, and thus do not qualify as the matching keywords for the purpose of detachments
I'm sorry that you have yet to see any unit in 8th, here's a Tau Drone where the <Sept> is listed as a Faction keyword.
But like >>53626356 says, I'm just missing around because we know people will act like this, and GW will have to FAQ it.

Tzaangors: pistol or -1ap?

Choice is having 2 attacks at S4 with -1 and WS3 or having an extra S3 12" shot at BS4

Kinda leaning away from pistols to be honest. Tzaangors are pretty fast and lose shooting when advancing so it would only really be for overwatch/melee

>>53626364
I mean Berzerkers are S6 with their chainaxes so they'd be wounding most vehicles on a 5+ anyway. The only real bonus would be D3 damage which isn't much when you're only hitting half the time and wounding on 3s.

I'd rather take the 4-point power sword and keep the chainsword... 1 more normal berzerker attack and 3 Ap -3.

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>>53626404

>>53626415
>356 points
I mean, sure, it'll never die unless someone unleashes a shadowsword onto it, but is it worth it over two quad-las predators?

>>53626307
Blastmaster is absolutely in 8th, have you not seen the leaks?

>>53626043
666 conscripts. Nothing but auxiliaries, so you can take nothing but conscripts.

>>53625963
How is he not already? What crazy shit did the othe Fab General do to earn his position?

>>53626440
On a brute?

>>53626440
There's a huge difference between it being in the book and being reasonable to take....

>>53626367
But wrath of magnus was a 7ed campaign book, while Death Guard are getting an actual codex on 8th. It's weird that they're getting one before Chaos Space Marines do, maybe indicates each cult legion is getting it's own supplement?

>>53626430
Pistols feel way less important for CC units now that you aren't relying on them for extra attacks. The extra AP sounds way more valuable than an autopistol shot

>>53626447
3 Detachment limit at 2k points and under.

>>53626415
Thanks for all the input man!

I honestly never even considered Termies and Land Raiders; I was so caught up in units that I was thinking of using in 7th that I forgot to really consider them.

So Land Raiders are beasts you say and Termies are better?

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>>53626429
>it is a faction keyword

>>53626265
Since they moved the Enginseer to Elites for some reason, yeah, just the 150ish point Dominus. He's not bad at all, especially with the Eradication Ray to fire D3 BS10 meltagun shots at something, but still seems a tad petty the way they've slapped minor nerfs everywhere because they CBA to port wargear and rules properly.

As for sniping, we're probably second best at it after Guard, with Arquebi that are essentially 60" D3D Plasma with slightly less AP but a chance for mortal wounds. A squad of 5 Rangers with two of those and an Omnispex is 207 points, so I'm probably running two. Add in a Vindicare and suffer not the Warlords to live.

Checking, I can take a Tau Firesight Marksman and put him on a Drone Port, where he can activate the gun drones to grant them sweet BS 3+, while he also can see a unit of sniper drones to give THEM boosted BS?

>>53626459
>>53626465
errr no, sorry, not on a helbrute, just on noise marines. That would be awesome as fuck though.

>>53626371
3 lascanon hits are all it takes to ruin it's day. As a full melee walker, yes it's rather fragile.

>>53626436
From my experience, yeah. Granted, I've been taking the cheaper crusader pattern, but it combines an ungodly durable platform with lots of transport space and a lot of dakka.
Now the terminus I'm not so sure about, but the other patterns have served me well thus far.
Though outside of black templars I don't expect to see more than one on most tables, which is fine, it's a rare, expensive unit that's a centerpiece model.

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>tfw you slide the Aeldari dick right in

>>53626440
I meant as an option to take on a Helbrute, like the Noise Dreadnoughts of old

>>53626467
>maybe indicates each cult legion is getting it's own supplement?
I thought this was painfully obvious to everyone the moment they all but revealed that the Cult Daemon Primarchs are all coming back.

Maybe I'm wrong about Death Guard having their own Codex all to themselves but seriously what is the difference between that and a Campaign book which has all the same shit as a Codex but just some other stuff along with it? What is the difference between Wrath of Magnus and a Thousand Sons Codex? Nothing, it's just semantics.

>>53626452
Politics, a game Cawl doesn't play. He thinks having one friend in a high place will get him the spot, where the Fabricator-General is chosen because he can play the politics game with the rest of the High Lords on behalf of the AdMech as a whole.

>>53626465
It seems good to me, and I say that as an EC player. It went down a couple points, it's Heavy d3, so you'll usually get more shots compared to the small blast it was before. Since it's also normal shooting, that'll make it relatively more accurate even when on the move. It still has okay AP, and combined with ignoring cover it'll still do a good job at taking out 3+ saves trying to hunker down in cover, since they go from a 2+ to a 5+

Won't be quite as good at pulping marines in the open though.

>>53626468
Pistols are amazing now, remember that they allow you to shoot while you are within 1" of enemies and to target enemies that are within 1" of friendlies. This means that you can shoot them, charge, fight, then next turn shoot them again, then fight again.

They still give you your extra attack, only now it's an attack during the shooting phase that uses the stats of a fuckin' plasma pistol

>>53626498
Its not even that he didnt play the game he just makes everyone fucking hate him on sight. Dudes got the arrogance of Big E with a weeabo-tier obsession with xenotech.

>>53626507
It takes 3 Fight phases for them to kick in during combat which almost never happens unless you're consolidating through unit to unit

>>53625836

Seconded. Well, I like the fluff, but I never really liked the miniatures. They are just oddly proportioned enough that I can't stand it. These ones I can really get behind.

>>53626393
Not a codex retard.

>>53626473
>So Land Raiders are beasts you say and Termies are better?
Yes. Land raiders are extremely durable (mine has been killed in exactly one of the 7 games it's been fielded in thus far, and only because the opponents all knight army spent 5 turns shooting at it), it's got transport space and loads of dakka. And termies are so much better it's insane. The changes to melee and AP have made them a unit that has proven there worth in every game I've used them.
Granted, a land raider with termies is a centerpiece model and is best used after having gotten some experience, I wouldn't recommend it for starting out any more than I would a riptide for tau, a knight for ad mech or a wraithknight for eldar.

>>53626500
Seems pretty legit to me, too. I'm thinking running fire support squads with a Blastmaster, a couple of wubguns and bolters, and a power weapon.

>>53625832

A good deal of them are preorders. People are preordering the boxed set and sell the components piecemeal to the buyers when it finally ships.

>>53626521
If you're the one getting charged it at least lets you fire next turn before fighting. Also it lets you shoot even if an enemy unit consolidates into you and keeps you from firing.

Raiders of Commoragh has flesh on deldar getting washed with reikland fleshshade.
Will it look super shitty or wrong if I go with nuln?
Also, it has them getting washed between base and palid wych flesh going down, does that sound right?

>>53626507
You're severely overestimating the value of that.

Yes, you can shoot them and charge, but you could always do that. Further, since the enemy selects which units to remove, they can remove the guys closest to cut down your charge range.

Secondly, if you're charging a dedicated melee unit into CC, then you're assuming that A) you and your target both survive the first round of combat B) the enemy doesn't fall back during your turn C) you and the enemy survive the second round of combat on their turn, and D) that when your turn finally rolls around again, that the number of pistol shots from your remaining guys will actually matter against the remaining enemies, and you wouldn't have just killed them in the ensuing fight anyway

Sure, it's a helpful bonus, but would you honestly take an Autopistol over -1 AP on your stronger close combat attacks?

>>53626495
>What is the difference between Wrath of Magnus and a Thousand Sons Codex?
Fluff, and a shit-ton of options. They don't have heavy support or fast attack to speak of, while Death Guard are getting their own.

I sincerely hope they aren't the only ones to get a full Codex, because not even Thousand Sons got that much.

>>53626538
Yeah. I ended up finishing a squad of extra guys recently so that I had enough for either the champ + 7 sonic blasters + 2 blastmasters, or running the sonic blasters separate and putting cheap chainsword guys in their place.

Now I'm kind of torn whether to run them separate or not though, since Split Fire is so easy

>>53626564
The point is that you can tie a guy up to take his shooting attacks away and then you get to shoot him and he doesn't get to shoot back with his good guns.

>>53626480

Wrong. You need to WOUND with 3 Lascannons because it will statistically live through 4 BS3+ Lascannons shooting at it:

>4 LC devs/havoks/pred shoot Brute
>3 hit
>2 wound
>7 damage

The best part is that Brutes still have a 6+ save against Lascannons, so the math is technically mess than 7 damage. Like, I've played two games today. Having to wound vehicles makes them a lot more sturdy than you think because that Lascannon is only wounding shit like Hellbrutes and Rhinos on a 3+

>>53625963
Fuck off TCI

>>53625832
>>53626542

There's one ebay seller in Aus that has 5 or 6 listings of each side for $110 (Half the price of box), as well as a few of them split into individual units.
I didn't check to see if they've also got the rule books up, but they'd be making bank if they do.

>>53626584
Except that still relies on all of those assumptions I just listed.

And INSTEAD of taking this pistol and getting the chance to shoot these guys once with a shitty gun, you can take a better melee weapon and just kill them faster, so that instead of being stuck, they're DEAD.

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>>53626562
Dark Eldar skintone varies with pinkish, bluish, grayish and purplish hues. And with the common pale skin as well as darker tones. Nuln will give you a gray skintone, but if you like that its fine.

>>53626593
M8 it takes 3 to 4 turns to get a Helbrute accross most tables. Two rounds of shooting are more than enough even if one were as optimistic as you are being.

So guard pretty much bottom tier now?

>>53626610
lol fine don't listen to me and get rekt by plasma pistols that you thought wouldn't matter

>>53626629
What makes you think that?

>>53626480
The chances of it dying to just 3 lascannons are absurdly low. It will take 5 to kill it from a mathhammer point of view.

The other anon is right, if you haven't played 8th it's best not to comment on it. It's so different from 7th they might as well be different games. Hellbrutes are not a fragile unit in 8th.

>>53626630
He didn't say they didn't matter, it's just not some huge bonus either.

>>53626580
Chaos is going through its usual 4-god-cycle. Khorne got a bunch of shit, then tzeentch stuff dropped, now we're getting Mortarion, this new blight drone, and probably a new typhus model, as well as some legion-specific terminators. Next up will be slaanesh, most likely with fulgrim and lucius, new noise marines, a legion specific terminator, and some slaaneshi cultists. Then we'll get angron, red butchers, new berserker models, and some more of those god-awful sigmar khorne cultists.

>>53626610
I'd say the real benefit of pistols is being able to shoot at units that are in combat, particularly ones that you can't disengage your unit from for whatever reason. That way they don't get to use being in combat with you as cover from shooting attacks.

>>53626629

If by bottom tier you mean tier 1 yes.

>>53626629
Why? Scions are good. Tauroxs are good. Valks are good. Command Squad elites can be kitted to fuck over people. Commissar aura is good. Orders are good.

Sure mech vets are fucked, same with platoon blobbers, but they're fine.

>>53626629
No. Craftworld Eldar and Daemons are. Guard are good and have a number of power units (conscripts, scions, taurox prime, manticore, basilisk, for example). Plus they actually have good melee options for once with rough riders and power maul bullgryn.

>>53626622
>M8 it takes 3 to 4 turns to get a Helbrute accross most tables.
That's wrong though. Ignoring that stuff like termies and raptors with turn one charges will tie up many threats to the hellbrute, 8“ movement plus 3.5“ advance plus warptime can get a hellbrute a turn one or two charge witn ease.

Not that anon, but it's clear you haven't played 8th so you really aren't in a good position to comment on it.

I just wanna say I love how much the perceptions of the new tier lists have changed in just the past 3 days since the leaks exploded.

I mean we had people claiming Tau were a dead unplayable Faction, Guard were garbage, Craftworld Eldar were still on top, Ork players thought they were still terrible, Necrons thought they were terrible... and all of that has basically flipped since then. People have gone from saying Tyranids were the best army to mediocre to top tier but under Orks.

Dare I say that... this edition might actually be, close to balanced for every faction?

>>53626622
Yeah, but the one time it charges in with 8 attacks, takes a wound in return, then makes another 8 attacks will make all the suffering worthwhile.

>>53626468
Hmm doesn't math-hammer say that the ap-1 does better wounds against MEQs than pistols

>>53626668
It seems a lot closer than it was at least.

>>53626640
>now we're getting Mortarion, this new blight drone, and probably a new typhus model, as well as some legion-specific terminators
There's even more than that coming. Not a TON more or anything, but that's not the complete list.

>>53626622
>i can only think in a vacuum

It has its own guns, too, and there's a whole battle going on around it. There could be a rhino charging your LC squad of something more dangerous to be shooting those LCs at. It's not like it's a squad of dudes shooting at a Hellbrute as it meanders across and open field. If it takes two rounds of shooting to drop my Brute, good. That's two rounds of shooting not aimed at my terminators that just dropped in behind you or my assault squad warp timing across the table behind that rhino.

>>53626629
Hell no.

>lasguns are deadlier than ever
>most of the codex is cheaper, even vehicles
>baneblades are a fucking terror now, especially shadowsword with 4 flamer sponsons
>Ogryns are viable, Bullgryns are better than terminators
>ultra-cheap HWT's allows for insane heavy weapon spam
>orders are automatic

Am I missing anything?

>>53626515
He spent literal millennia hiding in his basement and ignoring everything, to the point he barely noticed the Imperium almost being toppled during the War of the Beast and Beheading.

>>53626668
Having played it, it's close to that. In the hands of a decent or good player any army will dominate now, the absurd difference between the bottom and top tier in 7th is definitely gone in 8th

Should I play Blood Angels or Space Wolves.

>>53626668
Don't forget GK placing themselves all over the place
Tier listings have been all over the place, very entertaining

>>53626687
vehicles aren't cheaper they are more expensive learn the fucking rules you idiot

>>53626630
Firstly, the original point was Tzaangors, who exchange shitty autopistols for -1 AP.

Secondly, let's run through this:

You shoot my shooting unit with your plasma pistol guys. Some of them die, because it's plasma, but any unit with a couple plasmaguns could have done the same, and that damage also expands the distance you have to charge. Plus, it'd probably be made up for if you had put those points toward a melee weapon.

Then, we fight. If you have a dedicated combat unit, and this is a relatively frail shooting squad, my guys die. Your pistols didn't matter much more than a power axe would have, and a plasmagun could have accomplished the same thing.

Lets assume my guys are a bit tougher though, so they survive and its my turn. It's a shooting squad, so I have them fall back. Your pistols still don't matter any more than a power axe, because they don't stop me from walking away.

But let's assume I stay, this dedicated shooting unit actually has a chance of killing your guys and not getting killed in return (probably because instead of a power axe you have a pistol). So we fight once more, and either my guys weren't that good and die (and the pistol didn't matter again) or they live.

And now it's your turn again, and the moment you've waited for has arrived. You fire your plasma pistols once more, and get 1 shot for every guy that's still alive against this shooting unit that's somewhat competent in melee for how long they stayed. This either kills them and lets you charge something else, or it doesn't, and you still have to fight anyway.

I will take 3 rounds of power axe over 2 rounds of plasma pistol, thank you.

>>53626668

The power gap is certainly much, much smaller.

A good player with a 'bottom tier' army will beat a shitty player with a 'top tier' army now, instead of a top tier army winning outright because it simply cannot be beaten.

>>53626693

I concur. Having played it, everything feels balanced, though some things will look worse/better than others, but you just need to try it out and see how it plays in the not picture.

>>53625944

Just take sions

>>53626665

>eldar
>bottom

all my what

>>53626580
Thousand Sons in WoM was basically the beta test for a Cult Legion Codex. It was a minidex accompanying the first Primarch release and was done at the tail end of 7th.

Death Guard will be the first sort of matured Cult Legion Codex, kicking off 8th, with more options and depth than the Thousand Sons one had. Then Emperor's Children will get one with Fulgrim. Then World Eaters will get one with Angron. Then they'll probably go back to updating Thousand Sons again to add some more stuff and complete the cycle, and they'll be one of the best, like how Dark Angels suffered from the start of 6th til they got a Decurion-style Codex release in 7.5

>>53626710
Nah you're wrong stop being such a dummy

>>53626583
I was tossing up running a big wubsquad over a couple of smaller ones - still trying to figure if blobs or MSU is the way to go for fire support

>>53626719

Pure Craftworld is the worst of the Eldar armies.

>>53626695
Do you prefer Vampires or Werewolves?

>>53626725
Nah you're wrong stop being such a dummy

>>53626710
>fall back
>can't shoot or charge but can get shot and charged
bold plan cotton let's see if it works out for you

I think lemans are fucked now, punisher is ok, demolisher maybe, plasma irredeemable shit.
Im just waiting for that sweet annihilator leman russ.

>>53626719
It's probably untrue.

The shock of going from "literally so OP it has it's own tier magnitudes better than the next closest tier down which is still fucking OP" to "about as balanced as everyone else" is going to be a huge shock to the systems of CWE players and their opinions on the balance shouldn't be trusted.

>>53626687
>4 flamer sponsons
Any reason you'd rather pay 64 more points than the heavy bolters, especially on a tank thats best kept far away from enemy units? Just to keep away anything that does get close? I'm considering running one with blobguard so as to keep my tank bubblewrapped and have a way to murder stuff like land raiders and Knights.

>>53626695
Both are melee focused marines. BA focus on using layered aura buffs to boost their normal marines and death company to super killy levels. Space Wolves instead use more independent super units like Wulfen and Thunderwolf Cav to tear people a new one. Both are valid. I'd go with the force you think looks better.

>>53626754
Plasma bad?
Do you even take Commanders?

>>53626715
>>53626714
>>53626702
>>53626693
>>53626680
>>53626668
I think the biggest difference though is that unlike previous editions, 8th isn't boring if you're losing. You always feel like you have a chance, and there's no more of the "I shoot this gun and your elite unit is just removed" bullshit. It definitely rewards how you play much more and most every unit feels like how the fluff I love describes it. The game is about the game, not what list I bring.
The game, in my opinion, feels funner even when losing and that goes a long way to making it better. When I enjoy it no matter what happens, then it's doing it's job.

Does anyone else who's played it agree, or am I the odd man out on this?

>>53626748
And yet, that's completely independent from the assaulting unit having a pistol, isn't it? I'd still have a shooting unit fall back from terminators with stormshields and thunder hammers.

>>53626731

Eh, that's not saying much. They're still strong. Dark Reapers are scary, Hawks are an annoying source of mortal wounds., Fire Dragons are fire dragons, wave serpents are even more durable and are relatively the same cost as they were in 7th, Seers/Warlocks are great, Wraith units are strong, scorpions and banshees are good. I don't see eldar having problems.

>>53626668
The different armies seem more in line with each other but it'll probably be a bit before we can tell how many different viable builds each faction has and if there are any units that are just outright not worth using that need tweaking.

>>53626775

They are still strong, but they might as well be bottom tier simply because the direct upgrade version of themselves in the Ynnari, at least as far as WAAC fags are concerned.

>>53626769
I haven't played it yet, but as a game designer, I get the impression just from reading the rules that what you're saying is spot on. GW had a very clear design goal of restoring a lot of player agency, and being able to feel like you're in control of your army even when you're losing removes a lot of frustration.

someone do the math pls, what lands more successful wounds against an MEQ?

20 WS3, S4, AP -1 attacks

Or

20 WS3, S4 attacks + 10 BS4, S3 attacks?

>>53626766
>6 mortal wounds

>>53626719
They have some good stuff like nice psykers, buy battle focus is a fairly mediocre army wide rule and they have a fairly high proportion of stinker units compared to other armies. Most Asuryani armies can be improved by going Ynnari and using soulburst.

>>53626769

This. Exactly this. I nuked a 30 squad of. It's down to 12 models with shooting, charged with my CC Marines, and watched in awe as they proceeded to retaliate. I want mad or upset. My jimmies were unrustled. I laughed. We all laughed. It was absurd, and that's when I realized how much fun this edition would be.

>>53626790
Is that WS3 as in 4+ or WS 3+?

>>53626801
Why would you overcharge if you didn't have the reroll order ready? Hd6 s7 ap3 is still good.

>>53626804
As in hits on a 3+

>>53626773
So you'd like to fall back. And then do nothing, which allows the terminators to move forward and then attack you again?

Man you're a genius wish I would have thought of that

>>53626790
First does about 3.3 wounds after saves

Second does 2.2 plus .5 for 2.7 total

I'm assuming you mean WS 3+ and BS 4+, by the way

>>53626824
I mean, yeah. If I have a squad with nothing but guns that has no hope of hurting the terminators, I'm going to have them back up so I can potentially shoot you with something else. I'm not going to have them continue to stand there so you can kill them before your next turn and charge something else.

I still don't see how a pistol would factor into this equation.

So the novel Dark Imperium gives some little insight into the 2 lost legions.

Cawl says that the gene-seed for the 2 lost legions still exists, and wants to use them to create new primaris marines. Guilliman spergs and says ABSOLUTELY NOT. Cawl says the warriors from these 2 legions were fine, the problem were their primarchs who "fell".

What are some weapons that used to devastate hordes now actually really suck against them with the no spill over rule?

>>53626786
That definitely feels like how it plays. I think plasma is the best example, it used to be "take me and risk dying" while now it's "take me and don't worry, or turn up the heat if you need to, but with a risk."

>>53626816
The former will kill more marines. 3.333... To 2.777... Wounds respectively.

>>53626842
Except we already got a hint that one of the lost legions was purged for having mutations at least as bad and even more obvious than the likes of the Blood Angels.

>>53626825
Yes that's what I meant.

So in the end giving Tzaangors pistols and chainswords seems pretty bad as they get +1 to their advance which means you go without pistol shots till combat.

Only advantage is overwatch but it's a lasgun equivalent gun with no rapid fire so it would be hot garbage there I guess

>>53626786

Infinityfag here (who alsos the 40k), but by no means a game designer so this is probably meaningless ranting, but it seems like sheer lethality seems to be a great balancing factor. Even tough units in Infinity can be killed from lucky shots with a basic weapon, and even some of the most evenly costed, versatile units need just a wound or two to remove from play.

40k seems to be playing with this, but with a bit more durability in mind. Massed weak fire can still break even a hard target, and that kind of threat keeps them down because any unit that's borderline broken can still be killed by massed grunts with flashlights, when before a lot of those units were straight immune to that kind of firepower, or had such high resistance that it was highly unlikely to kill them.

What is the Wu-Tang Clan trick you guys were talking about earlier?

If the opponent is 7'' away, do I have to roll charge on 7 or just 6 because " 1" free " ?

What's the appeal of Warhammer as a game? Is it just because it's already popular so it's easy to find opponents? I've been pretty unimpressed by the system in comparison to a lot of other tabletop wargames. There doesn't seem to be much room for skill after you reach a very low cap. Winning is almost entirely about list building and the luck of the dice.

>It's an arguing about Tervigon spawns and Wu Tang Clan episode

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>>53626708
I did. In order:

>Basilisk is 108, down from 125
>Deathstrike is 163, down from 165
>Hellhound is 101, down from 125
>Bane Wolf is 106, down from 135
>Devil Dog is 108, down from 130
>Manticore is 133, down from 170
>Baneblade is 499, down from 525
>Baneswird is 404, down from 430
>Hellhammer is 519, down from 540
>Shadowsword is 444, down from 455
>Stormlord is 444, down from 480
>Stormsword is 404, down from 485

Velkyries, Leman Russes, Wyverns, the Banehammer, The Doomhammer, and Hydras have gone up, and Sentinels are about the same, including their weapons.

And fuck you for making me look every single one of those up.

>>53626760
Steel Behemoth lets a Baneblade variant fire its big guns out of a melee and its heavy flamers/twin heavy bolters like pistols. 4 of them together along with the hull twin heavy bolter puts out an average of 31 hits per turn (this ALSO goes off in overwatch), which will devour an entire squad of space marines along with the tank's own attacks. Will also devour 20 gaunts.

In addition the baneblade can fall back and shoot/charge normally from the same rule, thus can retreat two inches and force the enemy to charge and get hit by 31 hits of flamers on his own turn as well as yours. It's incredibly powerful.

>>53626886
Wait, what is there to argue about spawns?

Do you think Primaris Marines will make our existing marine armies obsolete?

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>with 8E, same old people want me to paint their Primaris purchases
>choosing my best level of detailing while attempting to talk me down from clearly stated prices to almost three colors and a minwax tier monies

This ain't a nonprofit, Corrin

>>53626842

I'm actually kind of hoping they don't delve into that. But if they do, I sincerely hope it results in a progeny that just raises many more questions than it answers, and ends up dying before we can get any of those answers.

Nothing that can be written now could ever live up to the black hole our imaginations fill into that void labelled "Legions II & XI" unless we get a supremely talented writer on our hands to fill in those particular blanks. Until then, I hope that the questions that surround those Legions remain more baffling than any answer which can be dredged from the depths of this blank spot in lore.

>>53626882
The model has to get within 1 of it

So if the model is 7 away, then yes you only need to roll 6

>>53626865
It doesn't work, but I'll explain the thinking.

Most units have something like <Sept>, <Clan>, etc...

You make a Wu-Tang sept and a Wu-Tank Clan

Since, as written, your sept/clan name replaces the <......> entry, you now have a Wu-Tang keyword.

You can now theoretically cross-faction ally.

>>53626883
for some people it's the aesthetic and the fact that other games just don't have the sort of scale and playstyle I was looking for, though granted if Halo Ground command had been out when I started 40k I might not have played 40k, though part of the appeal was friends who play it.

>>53626842
>Cawl says that the gene-seed for the 2 lost legions still exists, and wants to use them to create new primaris marines. Guilliman spergs and says ABSOLUTELY NOT. Cawl says the warriors from these 2 legions were fine, the problem were their primarchs who "fell".
Oh god, GW is going to actually do it aren't they, the absolute madmen. They're going to destroy the mystery of the lost legions and make them relevant to the plot.

>>53626883
>Is it just because it's already popular so it's easy to find opponents?
Yeah, pretty much that and people are invested in the universe.

>>53626894
and of all those units that went up, valkyries got the biggest buff with the same stats as a riptide while 1/2/-1/3 of the price

>>53626857
>past books
>canon


GW could easily explaint his contradiction away though:

>Gene-seed is fine
>Primarch falls to chaos or starts tinkering with his own genetics
>Creates a chaos spawn/corrupted gen of marines
>purged
>Pre-discovery pure gene-seed samples are discovered by cawl

>>53626477
sure,

or you could have marker drones on the drone port and a cadre fireblade to give those 4 marker drones bs2+ and then have some infantry there with him. that way anything near that drone port essentially also get volley fire.

>>53626883
What you're describing is totally accurate... to the last edition of Warhammer, which is currently being lowered into its grave.

8th has changed everything. We're on the cusp of a brand new era with the game being revitalized in a way we haven't seen in almost 20 years.

>>53626927
We got much bigger hints to the 2 lost legions in HH books 10 years ago. This really isn't that big a deal compared to Horus shattering one of the lost primarchs pods as it gets sucked into the warp or leman russ saying he had to exterminate them

>>53626910
>Nothing that can be written now could ever live up to the black hole our imaginations fill into that void labelled "Legions II & XI
They have long since filled it, they honestly might as well give us some retarded information like one fucked Xenos and the other was a Mutant. Its been narrowed down so much at this point anyway

We already knew they didn't consort with Chaos due to the fact the Emperor had Russ kill one or both of them and their marines were taken into the Ultramarines after they were killed.

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>>53626894
>heavy flamers
Sorry, TWIN heavy flamers. let me explain.

They deal 2d6 automatic hits per. 4 of 'em averages 28 hits, and the twin heavy bolter averages 3, making 31. Going for the 5 twin heavy bolters only nets you 15 hits on average, but you do get more range out of it.

But only with the flamers do you get about 29 hits on overwatch, not including the lascannons and main guns.

>>53626931
Correct! Though the Wyvern got nerfed.

>>53626938
Ooh, totally missed the Fireblade has BS2+! Even better! The setup you propose sounds pretty ideal, would be great for siege games.

>>53626897
Some people trying to argue that the second mode of Tervigon spawning still costs reinforcement points. It doesn't, they already got BTFO in the last thread.

>>53626882
If your models are 7'' away you only have to roll 6. However, them beeing exactly 7'' away is very unlikely.

>>53626942
While true, it's still not comparable to some other wargames in terms of depth.

Daemons don't seem to have point costs listed for their weapons, and in their datasheets, they use "attacks with" instead of "is equipped with". Do daemons not need to pay for their weapons?

>>53626952
that way the marker drones are also safe from being sniped. its a pretty choice command platform

>>53626949
>tfw the primarchs of the II and XI legions are alpharius and omegon and the primarch of the XX was killed by russ, just as planned.

>>53626932
I'm pretty sure it was a blurb from the Horus Heresy books. Y'know, the currently ongoing mass of retcons?

The exact thing was Sangunius trying to hide the Red Thirst and find a cure without the Emperor's help, because apparently one of the other lost legions was purged for a defect like that.

That makes me think he wouldn't worry if it was some primarch who tried messing with geneseed and fucked up, since he wasn't the one who caused it

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>>53626966
Correct. Only Daemon Princes.

And the DP weapon costs are weird.

WHY ARE THE CLAWS SO CHEAP!?

>>53626861
I think it's more appropriate once you get to extremely armor themed armies like knights. The bigger changes are vehicles not randomly dying, when some things probably really should have been a vehicle versus a monster, and no more D weapons. Those two changes alone were massive improvements.

Cutting away the formation cancer, streamlining deepstriking, and getting rid of prohibitive assault rules is all gravy, too.

>>53626942
From what I hear they removed a lot of the depth from the game like vehicle facings and generally simplified everything. What have they done to increase the skill ceiling in your opinion?

>>53626474
how else did you think people where gonna get chapter/regiment specific detachments/bonusses ?

>>53626991
For start the fight phase itself requires more tactical decision, because you need to decide which units need to attack first rather than automatically winning if you have higher initiative.

>>53626971

>Alpha Legion
>First and Last
>Alpharius and Omegon
>I and XX
>Dark Angels and Alpha Legion
>Alpha Legion is commonly depicted with Hydra symbols, with a third head
>Alpharius and Omegon are 2/3 of the pattern, Dark Angels, probably the Lion himself, being the latter 1/3
>Dark Angels torn between loyalist and traitor
>Plus secretive, paranoid behavior

>>53626962
That remains to be seen, but even so, depth isn't everything. Warhammer beats the everloving shit out of all competitors in terms of the setting and lore, outside of historicals. It does so much better than even the next best game in that department that that fact alone kept it alive for the past decade while the previous CEO and his lackeys did everything they could to shit on the community and run the rules side of things into the ground. You hear a lot of oldfags grumbling about 40k having shit lore now, but they mean that in comparison to the older 40k lore - it still tends to be leagues better than any of the other wargame settings at its worst, and now that the rules are massively improving, I think the less-popular games are going to suffer badly.

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>>53626906
How much is just two colors, example given :^)

>>53626991
>vehicle facings
>Depth
Nice joke, vehicle facing was just autistic arguments the rule.

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>>53626664
>same with platoon blobbers
Are the basic squads of Infantry guardsmen at least worth taking?

>>53626802
What good is Battle Focus even for if it doesn't work for heavy weapons?

>>53627011
Sure, but if you're looking for an in depth strategic competitive wargame, 40k isn't really that.

>>53626731
being the worst of the space elves means not much if all space elves still run everything

>>53626775
What's so good about Warlocks? Gimped Runes of Battle and Smite, only 1 cast attempt. Utter shit.

>>53627018
They're down by 10 points and Commissars have an AoE buff now, so there's that.

They'll be harder to order, but officers are cheaper and easier to keep alive.

They'll be harder to psychic buff, but psychic buffs aren't as great now, anyway.

Overall, a mild nerf. And you can still run Conscripts.

How do we deal with DE in 8th? I'm planning on gunning down their infantry with 2-3 Baal Predators, but what is the best way to crack their Venoms and Raiders?

>>53627011
The question is whether or not Warhammer is a tactical and skillful wargame, not if it has the best setting.

>>53626991
lol you heard wrong retard

>>53627018
yeah our orders are great , taking a heavy weapon isn't a waste now and it looks like they're even better tarpits this time around

>>53627018
Eh, if you want infantry waves you take conscripts and put a commissar nearby

>>53627041
Conceal seems really good still

>>53626991
Not him, haven't played 8th. Barely played 7th.

From what i can see.

movement being different will make the maneuvering phase very different especially against other armies. As some one who started in fantasy you don't realize how different one inch of movement can really be.

Command points as a source of rerolls or passing test. its a system that worked in other games the idea of being able to buy or work out rerolls or benefits. the choice to use them in the game and the right timing since they are a limited currency

the fight phase, picking the battles wisely when they happen.

most people got over vehicle facing by using weapons of overwhelming strength anyways. and i do like that a lot of the rules are streamlined to curtail arguments on template positions or like you said vehicle facings.

>>53627008
>lion is an alpha legion member
fucking gw

>>53626991
The simplifying was all good. Complexity in game design is not good. You want the maximum depth you can squeeze out of the minimum complexity.

New 40k introduces a ton more skill-based play to the game with a massive increase in player decisions that can affect the outcome instead of leaving so much to random chance like before. The command point/stratagem system, the new alternating deployment rules, the new charge/fight phase rules that create all sorts of interesting positioning situations and the alternative activation to resolve combats, listbuilding has been massively opened up as the rebalancing has made most things viable now. I've been shitting on 7th for ages and I was cynical at first about the chances of 8th being good but GW actually surprised me.

>>53627045
Lascannon.

Anyone mathhammer power fists vs chain fists yet?

>>53626981
Claws and bolter are amazing and really cheap

>>53625824
>>53625836

I hope they go along more with whole Star Wars Clone Troopers theme that theyve been going on in the Dark Imperium book

>>53627074

>average of 1d3 is 1.5
>average of 2 is 2

What's there to mathhammer? Normal fists just have the potential to spike for more damage as well as the potential to whiff

>>53626981
most stuff that is factored into the model is cheap. stuff that is default but is a legit better choice than some of the other options that replace it is expensive

>>53627025
I wouldn't be so sure. There's a reason it has a thriving and growing competitive tournament scene in the states while I haven't seen anything of the sort for other wargames besides X-Wing, and X-Wing, while a very good game, mostly was assured success simply by virtue of being part of the Star Wars IP.

>>53626668
Tau is still a dead unplayable faction lol.

>>53626946
>leman russ saying he had to exterminate them
Leman Russ never said that. He only implied that the Wolves had fought Astartes before. They fought the World Eaters during the Night of the Wolf. Nothing about that has anything to do with the lost legions.

>>53626620
It's more I'm cheap, and $12 for a flesh shade I probably wont use a lot of seems excessive.
If it looks shit I'd drop the money, but I can't find any pictures online of a nuln wash on it, so don't know.

>>53627089
>>average of 1d3 is 1.5
>average of 2 is 2
this is bait right ?

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>People sperging out over vehicle facings being gone
>When everybody was just spamming strength D, haywire and Grav anyway

>>53627089
>average of 1d3 is 1.5
You can't roll a 0 on a d3. Your options are 1, 2 and 3. (1+2+3)/3=6/3=2. Average is 2.

>>53627107
I've been seeing it a couple times lately. Either people really don't know how averages work, or this is the new meme

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>tfw Stormlord filled with 18 HWT
Even without All Power To Weapons!, the scant -1 to hit means nothing if it moves, and so long as it's half-covered by terrain, it gets a 2+ save, meaning it will never die. You can fire mortars for days or do something more aggressive with the other guns.

Or, hell, you could just load 9 HWT for offense and still have room for 22 other models to unload into key spots as it performs its humble fortress-on-wheels roll. It's M10 now, so vroom vroom.

Lastly, S9 A9 AP-2 D3D in melee while able to fire bolters within 1" and still fire its other guns at enemies further than 1".

I have no idea what the best IG BB variant is right now, but this has always been my favorite and I'm glad I can still have fun with it. It's also the only BB variant I own.

>>53627046
The original question was asking what the appeal was. The strongest appeal is the setting, that's the answer.

>>53627099
You don't have be super deep to be competitive or popular.

>>53627071
>40k
>skill
lmao

>>53627074
No need to, the chainfist is better.
Statiscally they have the same damage (CF is always 2 and the average of d3 is 2), but the CF has one better AP.
The chainfist is better, even assuming it rolls 3 damage it's only re,oving .2 more wounds, and most of the time it will be far worse than the CF.

>>53627120
Yeah there's no skill, that's why the top earning tournament players tend to be a small consistent group out of a massive pool. Those guys just consistently get luckier than everyone else that's definitely the reason.

>>53626404
how does black science man know that shit isn't gonna hit him in the face??

>>53626910
>>53626927
>>53626949

Fuck that, I'm sick of this undercover Marry-Kate and Ashley bullshit. We've had to put up with this crap for over 20 cunting years. It's not clever, it's lazy. Just tell us what the fuck happened.

>>53625944
1 "Platoon Blob" already involved x25 guardsmen minimum, including what is now x2 infantry squads IE 2 troop choices. What the fuck are you bitching about?

>>53626991
There is a lot of skill in managing unit positioning fo melee, both as the agressor and the defender. Properly using screening units to set up shooting, managing multiple charges and pile in/consolidation moves, as well as simply making proper decisions about which unit to activate when in the fight phase. Plus theres a fair bit of play in managin character positioning to get the most out of their aura buffs while not leaving them too vulnerable. Also there are far more common and flexible mobility and deep strike options which you often have to be mindful of. Its often not your vehicles, but instead your characters that end up getting flanked. You also have to consider where and when to use command points. Sometimes this is obvious (I flubbed my vital charge roll), but not always. And this should only grow as more command abilities come with codexes.

>>53627130
Faith in God

>>53627055
>yeah our orders are great
The orders are kinda shit. They have a 6 inch radius.

>>53627130
Science. It's right there in the gif.

>>53627108
They're literally just finding something random nobody cared about and complaining about it because it's gone now

>>53627130
Negro sorcerery

>>53626629
nah

>>53627023
Its mainly good with shuriken weapons.

>>53627152
I choose this answer!

>>53627146
You can buy vox if you want. Short range for character bonuses is standard in 8th.

>>53627113
it's the only one i own to atm, for 30k reasons
don't forget to stick some flamer command squads in there for those extra d6 hits on overwatch anon !
also an astra telepathica psyker can cast psychic barrier for a +1 to save rolls for an astra militarum unit

planning on getting a banesword or shadowsword next though cause i like big guns
depending on the rules for elysians

Baneblade loses ballistic when he moves?
Can tanks shoot different targets in melee?

>>53627130
>ball swings out
>friction and gravity reduce force on upswing
>ball stops at slightly shorter height
>gravity swings ball back with less force than initial drop
>gravity and friction reduce force on return upswing
>ball gently caresses black science man on the nose because of the reduced force

>>53627130
It can't, it started right next to his face then swung because gravity, it never actually gets any more energy than it gains from the initial swing-down so it can't go up past where it started. Common trick at physics lectures, I once heard about some Aussies who stuck spikes on the thing itself because the threat of getting hit with a squishy ball isn't interesting enough.

>>53626927
After milking the Horus Heresy for what, over a decade now?, do you really think that the idea of keeping some mystery about is at all interesting to the GW muckymucks?

Gotta turn over every stone and make the unspeakably ancient mythology of 30K explicit story beats if that means nerdbucks may flow!