Fixing Naruto worldbuilding

>>53581635
Reincarnation being literal. Tails Beast being so easy to get on your side. The advanced level eye bullshit.

Advanced meaning more than the Sharingan letting you copying and the Byakugan's special sight.

Also power levels going too far.

>>53581665
>Reincarnation being literal
Someone was reincarnated in Naruto?

Tails Beast should be the power level ceiling.

Not sure how to fix eyebullshit.

>>53582336
The way to fix eye shit is to keep it reasonable
The sharingan only does the tracking shit and maybe the unaffected by genjustu shit

>>53581635
>Pin point what makes the setting suck
the children

ninja dont graduate until they are 18ish.almost all problems of the series solved

the setting should revolve around slice of life of being a ninja killer assassin. having a typical fantasy plot with a BBEG and shit sort of forces power creep

Everything after the Chuunin Exam arc.

>>53582444
I kind of like the whole 'child soldier' angle, if you took it more seriously it could be interesting to look at what effects being raised as soldiers and assassins has on someone's childhood.

Problem with naruto? let me see:
-Prophecies
-Chosen one
-Mary sueis in that with a few words these fuckers change the universe
-Legends literally being stuff that happened 50 years ago
But specially prophecies and recurrent shit

>>53582481
the problem with that is to be realistic you would have to have either kids dying all the time, or have the kids be as powerful as adults. the former isnt going to happen (and would get boring watching tons of stupid powerless kids try to throw a knife only to be stepped on by a tree giant some dude summoned) and the latter was why the series was dumb

you could maybe have ONE child soldier that the story follows and have him be the sidekick of an actual badass adult ninja whos doing pretty much all the fighting

like a ninja wolf and cub

>>53582555
or you could have the first major conflict be the Chunin exam. It gives an excuse for the trainee soldiers (from a variety of cultures) to be involved in dangerous situations and combat without having to make them compete with adults.

The only problem I found was the DBZ power level bullshit by the end of the first series otherwise I apprecited the fact that combat, no matter how fantastic, still required a great deal of strategy and complexity.

Sasuke vs Danzo was one of my favorite fights because literally he defeats Danzo's god mode jitsu by just casting a simple genjutsu on him to make him believe he had a few more minutes left on his god mode.

>>53582481
I like this angle too. Training starts better younger, and in the show the adults TRY to only assign the kids to missions they would be realistically be able to handle (Escorting an old man on a routine travel route, performing a massive field exam to graduate to the next level, NOT chasing after a notorious ninja criminal), but shit always goes wrong (The old man lied, he's being hunted by high tier assassins, a neighboring nation is using the field exam as a cover for their invasion, the kids chase the criminal anyways).

So that part is less a problem with the setting and more a fact of it being a shonen anime.

>>53582598
but then they wont be having badass fights. either they will be made too strong to make the fights interesting and it will lead to power creep or they dont have powers and its just watching retarded children get into slap fights

I kinda stopped reading during the team 7 arc, in where they turned Shikamaru into Sasuke, allowed him to fulfill his revenge, got into SSJ3 bullcrap with only 3 days of reading and playing shogi making him able to outspeed Kakashi and have infinite chakra.

>>53582555
Oh but kids died, lots of them, in the Ninja War 1 flasback you saw who Hashirama and Tobirama were 2 out of like 5 brothers, 3 of them died young as fuck in the war. Madara had 7 brothers, 5 died in that war too. It was brutal.

>>53582664
I don't think you can describe teenagers who've been trained in combat from a young age and have minor supernatural powers dueling to the death as a slapfight. It wouldn't be as flashy or impressive as the original but it still has plenty of potential to be entertaining.

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>>53582664
>not watching retarded children get into slap fights

>>53582450
Honestly, even the Chuunin Exams were a mess. Could you honestly see someone like Iruka surviving the Chuunin Exams?

Make the Chunin Exam be just as 3rd hokage said: ninjalympics, complete with cultural posturing, that might lead to a promotion, and people get promoted all the time outside of it

>>53582777
>>53582724
oh yeah i forgot about the tobirama flashbacks. that was done well

>>53582788
They said in the manga that every exam was different, maybe his year was piece of cake

>>53582788
Iruka? Sure yeah. He didn't have any super special powers that were unique to him, which mean he just was that good at traditional ninja things. After all, the mission was to steal something and survive, not have awesome anime fights.

>>53582788
Shikamaru and company survived that part of the exam by going low profile as fuck. I can see Iruka doing the same. Also is not like Sakura was good back then and she survived it too, it all depends on your team. Maybe Irukas had strong dudes like Ebisu and Asuma for example

>>53582925

>Ebisu
>strong

Did we read the same series?

>>53582336
>Not sure how to fix eyebullshit.

Take the Mangekyo out and make the Rinnegan something for gods or spirits rather than humans.

>>53581635
LESS
FUCKING
PARALLELS

>>53583031
I like the parallels.

>>53582689
nothing good came after that. The only fun thing was the copy pasta about how Powerfull Uchiha Madara was. And I'm not talking about. Ok I better stop now.

>>53583006
If we believe what Kakashi says

>>53582788
My fix is:
Ninja get promoted normally after a number years of service and good record etc.
Fuck those are military ranks, why someone outside a country have ANY right to say how to assign ranks inside a military.

So ninjas have a normal carrier grows but if youngsters want to show off and if the want to make Ad for clients they have the Chunin exams.

>>53581635
More focus on the fact the villages are secret and exist parallel to a more "normal" Japanese modern fantasy world.

>>53582689
Immortal duo was so good, probably the only true evil dudes in the manga

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We expand on the snakes, the slugs and the other villages and Kekkei genkai

>>53583295
Also number of Ninjas is inconsistent.

I would say FIre country has a 20 milions population. They have an elite military kinda like USA. USA have 300 milions population with 1 milion active personal.

So we have Fire country

20 M civilians

50 K Genins

5 K chunins

500 Jonins

Do those number seem reasonable?

Orochimaru stays.
Also, Orochimaru still gets away with it.

>>53583396
Only if he isn't all buddy buddy with the leaf and is constantly being hunted down

>>53583271

>believing anything Kakashi says

Besides if I recall he just said he was a good teacher.

>>53583359
Seems reasonable, but aren't they supposed to keep the number of their forces a secret because, you know, ninja?

I played a Naruto game once, my char was an Akimichi who summoned sandwiches and his weapon of choice was a bigass kitchen knife.

Whatever happens, sage mode stays in. That, and it's no longer taught by animals.

>>53581635
Naruto's lore was great for as long as the writer bothered to give decent explanations (with diagrams!) of how shit worked.
Roughly around the time of the reality warping eye jutsu bullshit, he completely gave up on that and a lot of the other shit he came up with since basically ran on Dr Who tier handwave garbage ideas that you'll have found five things wrong with by the time you get to the fridge for a snack.

I genuinely blame workload. He's clearly able to do it right, and he did for a good long while. Mangaka are worked to death and invariably hit a wall at some point, where their stress level just crushes their creativity.

So I suggest simply ignoring anything added after that point. Or possibly earlier, if I'm missing something else equally stupid.

>>53582875
The phases of the exam were testing some really important things, but the most complex things were all front-loaded
>stage 3
Can you hold your own in a fight? Do you know when you can't, and what to do?
>stage 2
Can you retrieve vital documents? Can you work with a team? Can you be trusted to not open the box labeled "do not open til Christmas?" Can you be strategic about stopping others from reaching their goals to make your chances of success higher? (Pro strat: amass as many scrolls as you can, head to the tower, get the pair you need, burn the rest. That many teams are now incapable of passing)
>stage 1
Can you retrieve specific info without getting caught? Did you do your homework beforehand so you don't have to waste time or risk failure trying to get it? Can you use your abilities discreetly, adapting them to a situation's unique needs? Do you have the guts to make the hard decision to move forward despite risk? Or are you basic bitch who plays it safe?

>>53583415
wily bastard "that was just a doombot" orochimaru is best

>>53582788
The chuunin exams that Naruto et. al. were in was a special case. There was an abnormal amount of high-potential (future legendary-level) ninja at that exam, with excellent combat ability. Plus, you might've forgotten that the Sand village kids were intentionally trolling the exam that year, and they caused a lot of the actual death that happened.

It was just an unusually brutal exam. Presumably normal exams have a few geniuses who sprint ahead, not a whole bunch of psychotic geniuses hell-bent on fucking with everyone else as much as humanly possible, instead of just fucking passing the exam.

>>53583515
What? Why? That seems like a step backwards in cool loreness. Animals teaching you shit is awesome.

>>53581635
This thread prove while /tg/ can make setting more """realistic""" to western fiction perspective, /tg/ can't make a setting more fun.

Which defeats the whole point.

>>53583575
And they even made a point of the fact that you could lose the combat round and still graduate. They wanted to see HOW you fought, not how badass you were.

>>53583687
I think it less proves that and more that Naruto as a setting wasn't all that bad. The setting itself was pretty rad.

I think everybody is focusing on the parts that were good to much (which were good for a reason) and not focusing on the parts that were bad and need fixing. Sadly, I didn't watch the bad parts for obvious reasons so I don't know what's entirely wrong with them to fix them.

>>53583731

To be fair what went wrong was power creep and poor understanding of scale. That was about it really. There was a lot of potential, it just got misused in the name of shonen plot escalation.

>>53583768
Well, then let's do something interesting and remove the powerscale and even the playing field while keeping a general similarity to the original plot.

>>53583359
>20 milions population
This isn't all that reasonable. I'd say maybe a quarter of that, tops.

>>53583819

What I wish was that there was more focus on tactics and use of tools. It came down to "I use a giant explosion" and it could have been so much more.

>>53583888
Well, then let's pick a giant explosion specifically of one event and try to change it to being tactics oriented.

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The only problem I had was that they turned Naruto himself into a eugenicists wet dream prophesied chosen one instead of a guy who had to bust his ass to get on everyone elses level
I didn't even really mind the huge power jump toward the end of the series since that goes hand in hand with shonen in general

>>53583962

Just kill most of the high end jutsu that come up later in the series and that would do the job honestly. A fireball is fine, a little lightning on the hand isn't a problem. Being for all intents and purposes a human nuke is no good.

>>53584144
This is my absolute biggest issue with Naruto as a series.

>>53584177
I feel like Sarutobi vs. Orochimaru should be indicative of all fights between the tippy top tier of ninjas. Notice how it did NOT resemble Dragonball, in the sense that there were no megaton punches or giant energy beams/balls. Also, the powerlevel, while huge, was not massive like Dragonball.

>>53581635
Just keep everyone as low-level ninja.

None of this "summoning fuck huge kaiju" shit or city leveling jutsu.

Also, keep it in the past, away from the modern century.

Give samurai something decent they should really be stronger than ninja on average

>>53584177
I concur.
Anything better than grand fireball, early-series illusion techniques, basic sharingan or byakugan eye techniques, early chidori/rasengan, and so on, should come with significant trade-offs.

Lee's chuunin exam exploits and their severe consequences were an excellent example of how to do this kind of "elasticity" well.
It was so incredibly satisfying to see his decisions actually have real repercussions.

I don't think the raw power scale should go very far beyond that sort of stuff - instead, the best ninja should be the ones who come up with ways to supplement the power of their jutsu with other unique talents and abilities. The best ninja should be the fittest, quickest, most cunning, most innovative, and/or stealthy, underhanded, unpredictable, deceptive... etc. ones

And if you look for it in early Naruto, there was a lot of that happening. It was kind of a theme for a good long while, and then got left by the wayside later on as the series got less ninja-ey and more dragonballey.

>>53584238
This. This is why I said your best bet is to ignore everything after Chuunin Exams.
I'm not a fan of chidori or some of the other special techniques, either. I get that Naruto ninja are battle wizards, but it's still kind of ridiculous that a giant fan is seen as an acceptable weapon.

>>53584238

yeah. See that was the thing, was in the begining we had a few fights between elite ninja, the sarutobi orichimaru fight, or Kakashi v Zabuza, and they were good fights. Smaller scale, more thought out. Then we just got faster harder and bigger while loosing all the interesting nuance.

>>53583650
Well, animals can teach it to you but I can also totally see it being something someone could theoretically self teach. The first hokage seems to have been a self taught sage mode.

>>53584238
I actually feel that largely this is compatible with
>>53584346

Earlier on, even the "high power" fights were more about ninja deception/cunning speed-chess and less about throwing explodium at each other.
And that was honestly how the high-powered fights should've been throughout.

>>53584254
Modern Century stuff is what gives Naruto it's edge though. Without it its just normal boring ninja.

>>53584413
except modern century stuff is completely irrelevant, even in Boruto.

Sure, some of the sci-fi elements, like snakefag's cloning, are important, but even then they're mostly just a foot note, and powered/enabled by ninjutsu of some kind.

Tools. Tools should be a thing. Early on we saw traps, ninja wire, various weapons, exploding tags etc etc. That all fell off by the end, which I feel is a shame. Good tools and the ability to adapt them to the situation should the ninja make.

>>53584380
Self teaching stuff is incredibly hard. Are you familiar with the term standing on the shoulder of giants? Why teach yourself something if everybody has already done the hard work for you? You'd need to be a badass on the level of the first hokage in order to teach it to yourself anyways.

So a major problem with naruto is that at some point it stopped being "work hard enoygh and you'll be as good as everyone else no matter how bad your start is" and transitioned into " MUH EUGENICS, MUH ANCIENT PROPHECIES, MUH SPESSHUL EYES"
At what point did the theme shift?

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>>53584511
Chuunin Arc.

>>53584454
Still, what's the problem? It's flavor for the setting. The weird technology/ninjitsu aesthetic of naruto is one of it's best if unexplored parts.

>>53584538

Naw, it was a bit after that really. I'd say shortly after he learned the rasengan, maybe even after the time skip. There was a bit of Uchiha wank even from the begining, but it didn't really go nuts until we started seeing Itachi.

>>53584538
I don't know about that. That's where Naruto proved that 'special eyes' could be beat with skill.

>>53584561
I'd argue that Chuunin Exams is when the theme started shifting from "using what you have in a smart way" to "this technique is POWERFUL". See: Chidori, Lee, giant summons, tailed beasts, etc.
It wasn't all at once, and it took a while to completely change, but that was where it started. Before that, the only thing we'd seen was a giant water dragon that took a lot of chakra.

>>53581635
Curb power levels. I'd say the scale is fine up until after Pain. Pain had the literal eyes of Ninja Jesus, he should be the max strength anyone should achieve in the setting. The Sharingan caps off at Amaterasu/Tsukiyomi/Kamui, no "controlling destiny". Susanoo should be its ultimate technique, and only the Stand version, not samurai mecha look.

>>53584504
It mainly just bothers me that it's always something associated with groups of animals. Too much shit is based on specific lineages, it takes away your ability to really make a character your own. Only Hyugas and Uchihas get special eyes, only specific families get specific releases, only people who train with specific groups of magical animals get specific sage modes. Shit like that bugs me.

>>53584550
That same flavor/aesthetic can be kept even if the game takes place four hundred years before the show.

and you avoid all the bullshit questions like: why aren't their ICBM's, satellites, jet aircraft, tanks, and modern fucking wars?

Because ninja have world ending powers?

Okay, fine. So how the fuck do they have cellphones, pocket computers, and shit? Genjutsu?

Load of crap.

You know whats something that has potential but never got fleshed out?
Samurai

>>53584646

Shit like that makes sense to me personally. I'm a martial artist, have been since I was a kid. Been to Korea and Japan and China and studied there as well as here in the states. While this is not the case as much as it was in the past, schools have techniques they don't share. If you aren't a member of that school of martial art you don't learn their techniques. They are their secrets. The idea that there would be groups who keep their own secret techniques makes sense to me. The bloodlines are a bit odd I admit, maybe if they were just techniques kept by certain groups rather than something inhereted it might be better.

>>53581635
It seems like the background matte paintings are on a 20th century level of tech, but the cels are 500 years behind. Once when I plated a Naruto play-by-post, I made a character who was an electrician's son, and the GM said it was inappropriate. Fuck you, they have TVs and refrigerators and houses don't just wire themselves.

>>53584646
>takes away your ability to really make a character your own
Make a character in that family or make your own lineage.

What's the problem?
More importantly, what's a better alternative?

So, Third Eye Games Wu Yin the Ninja Crusade is the best, fixed Naruto I can imagine.

First edition has number bloat problems, but second edition fixes a lot of that.
Everybody gets a bit of martial arts, everybody gets a bit of jutsu, being a summoner can be wicked useful but isn't the end all.

It's good fun.

>>53584705
weabs are retards anon.

never play with weaboos.

>>53584697
Fair enough I suppose. Largely I'd just rather if we left out the exacts of who teaches secret techniques like Sage Mode or what have you, just to leave the potential for players to choose there. If it's literally just snakes and toads, then that's kind of boring isn't it? What about a group of mystic lizards or rats or something?

>>53584718
>make your own lineage.

That's more what I mean. Obviously you would need a special family to have certain things, but the specifics of that special family should be up to the player and the GM's discretion rather than being super concrete within the setting.

Now, you could decry this as snowflake-y bullshit, but that's what Naruto is all about right? A bunch of teams of special snowflakes who each have their own super unique power that contributes in it's own way?

Run it in Burning Wheel.

Keep the power levels low and focus on the characters and the drama.

It makes the action all the sweeter.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1eK0Ix8HnhOXmG8CWIS5T8ullJebCjQfb-zqLg62-6XA/edit#gid=1918102296

>>53584776
Actually, an interesting way to do this might be to have the players pick abilities first, then pick the origin of those abilities second. Specific abilities would require specific types of origins to acquire with some abilities having different origins with different costs.

To use sage mode as an example.

>(Sage Mode) Potential Origins: Taught by Magic Animals [Regular cost], Taught by Human Master [Higher Cost], Self Taught [Extreme fuckhuge cost]

>>53584654
I just always ignored the world outside of what we were shown. Besides, you know that technology isn't a skill tree that evolves in a narrow path right? The major warefare stuff is already far surpassed by ninjitsu that wasting time developing a technological equivalent when you could be perfecting ninjitsu is inefficient. But developing cellphones and TVs and cars for noncombat use for the masses who can't do ninjitsu would be incredibly useful.

>>53584538
>>53584561
Specifically, the last phase of the chuunin arc. The moment where Naruto is fighting Neji, trying to prove that Lee was right. The point was supposed to be, "Willpower, determination, and hard work will beat your special snowflake eye bullshit." But it ended up being, "I also have a snowflake power, nine tales powerup commenceth!"

The followup to the fight should have been Lee punching Naruto for failing him, for beating Neji the wrong way.

>>53584979
Well, there's always the First Hokage.

>>53584924
You underestimate how effective thirty million mooks with guns and grenades can be.

Even with ninjutsu, modern arms would have developed. It's a game of scale.

But just handwave all the tech bs as being ninjutsu. Setting runs off rule of cool anyways.

Ninja's were definitely not created by aliens from the moon.

More fighting as a team.

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>>53585045
Holy shit, this.

>>53584719
...Is... Is that entire thing the name of the system?

>>53584538
I'd argue it was before that. The fight with Haku was nothing but constant asspulls.

>>53584776
Oh, I had just assumed making your own lineages would be par for the course.

>>53582554
-Legends literally being stuff that happened 50 years ago

Agreed, I hated that the village system was so young, not even a century old.

To get the kind of unity and cultural development seen, a nationstate would have to be at least a century old.

>>53585116
The Haku fight could have been done better, but was also an important fight plot wise. It was a good place for that particular ninetails asspull.

Would have been more meaningful if Sasuke remained dead, or was at least wounded seriously enough that he had to work with his team in a fight from then on.

>>53585105
The 1st edition was "Wu Yin: The Ninja Crusade"
2nd edition was "The Ninja Crusade"

I will admit that all of that was a bit of a run on sentence.

>>53584719
I'll check it out, but I don't like the idea of a pure martial arts character not being viable. Rock Lee exists for a reason.

>>53585014
Oh no, I actively did not mention guns because the gun is THE WEAPON OF THE PEOPLE. But training somebody in the use of the gun for military purposes is way different. And why do you need trained gunmen when you already have people have mastered throwing knives faster than bullets and pieces of paper that can explode. You're mistaking the issue for thinking that guns and grenades would be easier to use than what they already have which serve the same purpose.

>>53585378
Actually, it takes some finagling, but the newest source book, Empires Reign, is all about a bunch of no-magic mooks kicking magic ninja ass.

But you are right, as default there is no way to have a character not have any jutsu, and jutsu are rather good, though not all encompassing. Someone who traded their jutsu for another 6 points in styles (and lost the ability to use jutsu at all) would find themselves about on par with other characters from sheer versatility, but would end up significantly less powerful once everyone hit rank 3 or so.

>>53585498
Except guns would be easier to use. Guns use chemistry to function. Not magic that takes time to learn. You're acting like everyone is a ninja in the setting, when they're far from it. Also, Gun-kata/Gunjutsu should be a thing. Those exploding bits of paper would be much better as exploding magic bullets.

>mastered throwing knives faster than bullets
Do you have a hard source on this, or are you assuming?

>>53585538
Well, at the least, are there jutsus that are purely buffs to your styles and not teleporting or fireballs?

>>53585557
You're missing the point I'm trying to make. It's not that guns would be harder to use, it's that they would be harder to fill the niche that other stuff already fills within the setting. They wouldn't have thought to develop guns en mass because ninja don't fight en mass. You ever see The Predator? You can send in a bunch of guys with gun, but one masterfully sneaky and clever motherfucker could take them out for sport.

I was exaggerating the throwing knives thing. Sue me.

>>53585557
Gun-kata/gunjutsu are you trying to make Tenten useless or op?

Even in the Sasuke Retrieval arc, the powers displayed in the series were already starting to become egregious, like Kiba turning into a giant two-headed dog and that kid with the spiderman powers.

>>53585568
Yes. Basically all the General Basic Jutsu are things like running over water, being a supernaturally good tracker, sense danger, or become a highly focused fighter.
If you pick and choose (and allow anime physics) then most of the general jutsu all simply make you... rock lee, actually.
Super strong, super fast, super tough. As an example, one of the Advanced 'Way of the Warrior' Jutsu is:
Battle Fury (Yang + Fortitude): Requires War Face. Ki can keep the ninja standing and fghting long after the limits of human endurance. For the remainder of the Battle the ninja gains +1 Armor and does not stop fghting at 0 Health. They can take additional Health damage equal to the number of successes, and then collapse after the Battle ends.
If that number of Health is exceeded the ninja may choose to collapse immediately, or continue fighting but die when the Battle is over.

>>53585683
Oh perfect. I'll definitely find a PDF then.

>>53585660
I'm not missing your point, I'm ignoring it because it's wrong.

The Predator couldn't conquer a nation.

10,000 ninja couldn't either.

30 million mooks with machine guns could.

This is what I meant by scale.

>>53585738
How about we just ignore that?

>>53585731
You keep talking about scale and yet you're saying 30 million mooks which is outside of the actual scale of the show so I'm not really able to lend much credence to what you're saying now.

>>53585738
A E S T H E T I C.

Seriously though. Naruto's faux modern aesthetic is absolutely garbage.

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>>53585755
Betamax is clearly what the ninja world runs on.

>>53585755
He just wants to watch something bro just let him have that.

>>53585738
why is vhs so comfy?

>>53585778
I agree, but there should still be stuff like the Village Hidden in the Rain. The pipes and concrete look is too cool to get rid of.

>>53583006
Kakashi said he wasn't shit. We only see him fight three times, first time he loses because of his boner. His second was against a sanin and third was against the guy who killed said sanin.

The fact he didn't get his shit immediately kicked in by Pain shows he's not completely shit

>>53585777
>They mass produce hand held video games, cars, trading card games, electricity, cup ramen, potato chips, and pornography.
>30 million normal Joes is beyond the scale of the world.

For fucks sake, Boruto has a fucking modern skyline that popped up in 20 fucking years at most.

Is being this dense your Kekkei Genkai?

You guys may not know this, but many Naruto characters have official fucking stats, which you can see in their wiki pages. Obviously, the stat system becomes kind of meaningless towards the end, but maybe we can make use of it somehow.

>>53585013
Senju are a special snowflake clan too.

How is the Naruto d20 system?

>>53585899
>d20
Crap unless you're a retard.

>>53581635
>Reduce the effective scope of ninjutsu.
The power levels got ridiculous after the Chuunin Exam and later Shippuden. Ninjas became wizards at that point and it removed the tactical approach to combat in favor of a DBZ style approach. Aside from Summoning jutsu's allowing large creatures, there really doesn't need to be any huge, flashy attacks.

>Acknowledge that Ninjas will not be around forever
One thing interesting about the world of Naruto is that we see the technology that will one day replace ninjas already in use. Telecommunications are much more effective at transporting data than sending a guy with a scroll who can be killed. A new age of information warfare is upon the Naruto world and I would have liked the story to deal more with that angle than trying to push prophecies.

What are the armies of these countries like? Ninjas don't make up the whole force, they are elite specialists meant to make strategic strikes and counter other nation's shinobi's. The last ninja war before the series started should also have been the last war where Shinobi were such a valued asset. I would have it so that during the war technology was shown to have evolved to the point where the larger armies of a nation were capable of matching what Chakra could do.

Having the Shinobi status on the decline would make the notion of preserving and protecting the family bloodlines and secrets more powerful. And it would make the uneasy peace between ninja villages a bit more tense; they need to keep looking good in order to stay in favor with their home countries.

I would also make it so that Pain isn't trying to create world peace, but a country where Shinobi are better revered since he would have been a child soldier living during a time where Ninja were treated as disposable. I would just make him Big Boss and the goal of Akatsuki to establish the Ninja Equivalent to Outer Haven.

>>53585915
>meme reply
I was gonna inb4 but why bother

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>>53584144
This is literally the biggest problem. The whole moral of the show is that hard work and determination can defeat innate talent and genius. Instead, it backtracks and makes our protagonist have tons of innate talent and genius.

Also the show should have been about Rock Lee.

>>53585857
>Reading Boruto

Are we expected to do this?

Where are these 30 million normal joes coming from? From the cities we see in the original show (AKA the nations of ninja that this setting focuses on) they do NOT have 30 million people. And even if they did, places like modern day China, the most populated nation in the world, only manages to break 2 Million active military personnel. Expecting to find 30 million people in Naruto would be a feat, let alone both finding the material and creating the infrastructure needed to properly equip them all.

I mean, insult me all you want but I'm not the one say "What if we gave elevinty bajillion people guns?!?"

>>53585887
Only as much as anyone really relevant. All ninjas are descendant from magic aliens from the moon, the Senju are just the MOST descended somehow. Their special power is just lots of perseverance anyway.

>>53585953
Rock Lee deserved better.

>>53585953
>>53586008
He's the guy who rolls shit stats then says "NO! I have got this!" and then minmaxes to hell and back to stay viable.

I would have loved if the whole show was just Rock Lee beating up various special background Mary Sues through superior training, tactics, and cleverness. Like a Reverse One Punch Man.

>>53585918
>Metal Gear Shinobi: Revenjustu

I dig it.

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>>53586047
>cyber-ninja villages

Now this is podracing.

>>53585960
>Boruto
If you want any sense of scale, yeah. Read fucking Boruto even if it's worse that the garbage that was Naruto.

See here's the thing, either the ninja nations are importing a fuck-ton of labor and goods from the nations that do have hundreds of millions of citizens, or they're using magic ninja crap to make everything, even their villages and electricity.

>And even if they did, places like modern day China, the most populated nation in the world, only manages to break 2 Million active military personnel.

http://www.nationalww2museum.org/learn/education/for-teachers/lesson-plans/pdfs/by-the-numbers.pdf

Enjoy.

>What if we gave elevinty bajillion people guns
Never said that, however:

http://www.smallarmssurvey.org/fileadmin/docs/H-Research_Notes/SAS-Research-Note-9.pdf

Shit dude, come ask over in /his/ or /k/ how fucking dumb the assumptions your making about the setting are. Especially when the world is full of modern fucking luxuries, computers, and science fiction level medicine.

Or we can continue arguing that the great nations are all ninja gulf states.

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>>53586074

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>>53586169
Nano-sand, son.

>>53586123
>ninja gulf states
Actually.

That doesn't sound too bad.

Each openly and covertly fighting one-another backed by various world super powers that exist beyond their borders.

It would explain a lot about the setting. Like how they can even have a modern fucking society with near 19th century population levels.

it would also add a wonderful layer of fuckery to the world.

These kids aren't dying for honor or friendship or their village.

They're bleeding out because !Britain needs the strategic resource in X location and Y clan didn't give in to their 'diplomacy'

>>53586123
You're links don't do much to help your case. The first one still didn't reach anywhere near 30 million. As for the second one, the only ones that break 30 million are the USA, India, and China and none of the nations we've been shown in naruto are anywhere close to being in that scale.

And why wouldn't we argue that the great nations are all ninja gulf states? That's what the entire setting is about.

>>53586214
>These kids aren't dying for honor or friendship or their village.
>They're bleeding out because !Britain needs the strategic resource in X location and Y clan didn't give in to their 'diplomacy'
See I'm liking this idea of Ninja villages no longer being about Honor, and this prompting Pain to go all Big Boss even more. The third shinobi world war was already a horrible mess of politics because nations were on the decline and it led to fights over resources and land. The war also lasted so long that eventually nations started using children as soldiers because they had nobody left. And all of this happened because the five great nations were losing power and trying to maintain it amidst the changing times. It's the right landscape for someone to realize that they are no longer valued members of a country and more tools for someone else's agenda.

>>53586241
You're fucking retarded and don't know your history.

The Soviets alone mobilized more than 30 million men and woman against the Germans. America, 12 fucking million.

In the fucking 40's. The global population has exploded since then.

The US alone has 280ish million guns. That's more than 9x the amount, 30 million, you said couldn't possibly exist in Naruto.

Naruto has VHS and the internet. That's puts the series at the late 1980's at the earliest.

So yeah, 30 million mooks with guns engaging in war if a global conflict should ever occur is well within the scope of Naruto, a series that has fights take place on the fucking Moon.

Oh, but wait, Naruto has piss poor lore and pacing because the writer is a lazy shit bag.

>>53586378
Just imagine Boruto or some little shit losing a leg to CAS, and IED, or a landmine.

Or that little uchiha cunt getting brained because she tried to edgy-eye her way out of the path of a bullet.

So sweet.

>>53586378
>>53586413
>trying to make Naruto more modern and realistic

How about no.

>>53586498
Keep in mind I'm not advocating an advance of technology. The Metal Gear references are purely thematic. Guns would complicate the setting in a way I don't want too.

>>53586498
How about yes.

Or strip that pseudo-modern bullshit away and make something that's actually pleasant.

Naruto set in the late Edo would be fun.

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Fuck you guys, the Boruto anime is great.

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>>53586413
>Hey I know, I'll take a cool idea and make it edgy trash

Good lord what is wrong with some people.

>>53586556
>Naruto
>Cool

>>53586555
>Using yourself as a club.
Boss Fucking Boruto.

If he doesn't have a pompadour by the time he's a teen I'm going to be disappointed.

>>53584459
Explosive tags remain the tip-top tier.
>grenade-sized explosion
>tripwire
>remote detonate
>timer
>don't go off when burned
>easily stored and carried (it's just paper)
>tie to a knife then throw
>paste the adhesive back to a surface and let the enemy walk into the mine

>>53584979
Someone didn't actually pay attention.
The fox shit was a distraction so Naruto could burrow underground and hit Neji from below. It's worth noting that if Neji hadn't turned the byakugan off, Naruto would have been fully visible to him. But Naruto tired him out and forced it on him.
Naruto was crafty as fuck when he wanted to be.

>>53586413
Hello Virt

>>53586864
Not bitching about D&D or pushing Savage Worlds enough to be virt.

>>53586874
Bonery enough about carnage to minors and women to be Virt

>>53586894
That the majority of /tg/ on a good day.

>>53586814
Not true. The fox shit let Naruto force chakra through all the points Neji forced shut, and reversed the paralysis

I mean, I personally still think the fight is an example of Naruto beating a more gifted opponent, overall, but I can see where that other anon's coming from.

>>53586904
Doubt

>>53586947
Haven't been here long have you?

>>53586814
>>53586906
Naruto wouldn't have been able to pull off the burrowing uppercut without abusing the fox. I will grant you that the move was pretty good on his part, but up until the point that Naruto brought out the fox, he was surviving on plot-armor-level-toughness. Basically three full episodes or being beaten to near death and having all your magic shut down is not crafty, and the only reason he got out of it is BECAUSE of his snowflake power, and not a result of him being a smart fighter from the outset.

>>53586577
Yes
I know it is a meme to shit on it but it is cool and people do like it
But like most of /tg/ you can't seem to comprehend that people have different tastes than yours
Or your just shitposting in which case fuck you shit ass try contributing something next time

>>53587117
Nah, Naruto is pretty garbage.

>>53587148
Nah, it's pretty average. But ninja's a cool, so it's popular.

>>53587117
Also I know that is supposed to be you're
auto correct fucked me

>>53587160
>>53587164
It's barely better than Bleach. Which is still pretty shit.

Plus the ninja in naruto are ninja in name only.

>>53587211
I can't argue with any of that. But again, the perception is that they're ninjas, and that's enough to make it popular with the highschoolers.

>>53581635
Zabuza arc was the last time this series had any decent worldbuilding, or tone
>Fights were smart
>even basic enemy were threats
>socio-political probelms - should ninja go beyond their mission or not?
I think one of the more retarded plots was that Naruto was never given extra training despite being a living nuclear deterrent

>>53585953
>>53586814
An alternate reading, as I've been told, is that the Neji fight wasn't about hard work vs genius. It was simply about proving Neji's belief that losers are fated to always be losers wrong. Of course, that shit's way less inspiring and pretty insipid given that Neji went out like a bitch later on, so hard work vs genius is way better of a reading.

>>53587284
>and that's enough to make it popular with the highschoolers.
Summer needs to end.

Scale back the powerlevels.
Remember that they are NINJAS, and the villages are not the entire world.
There is literally a country with actual soldiers (can't remember the name). Cut back the powerlevel where until that countries fighters will beat ninjas in a straight fight. Any powerlevel beyond that is retconned.
Ninjas go back to doing ninja things instead of being battle wizards with Chosen Ones and saving the world ( what the fuck do ninjas give a shit about saving the world? )

I guess the main problem is because the setting focuses on ninja, ninja is the most developed and focused. I guess if you stop calling them ninjas along with the assumptions it brings most of the problems go away.

>>53587306
Unclear on your meaning here, want to elaborate on that

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>>53587337

>>53587359
You're super fun to talk to. Please keep this up.

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>>53587373

>>53587337
Your newfag is showing pretty hard.

>>53587391
I want to say it's intentional, and anon is fishing.

>>53587337
It is considered that, since it's summer vacation, a lot of underaged kids come to 4chan and act obnoxious. This is of course ignoring the fact that everyone here is obnoxious pretty much all of the time, and it's only made more pathetic by the fact that the people you're talking to are NOT kids.

>>53587391
Neat. But how did we go from "perception of a thing is related to how popular it is, which is different from how quality a thing is," to "this guy's a fucking newfag?" Because that's the bit that I'm really unclear on.

>>53587306
This guy is just implying I'm a summerfag, which is stupid in itself, I'm just interested if there's something else involved here that I didn't pick up.

>>53587337
It means summer needs to end so the high school kids can go back to school and stop annoying us old people.

>>53587471
It was never implied you're a newfag.

It was implied that this crap thread only exists because >naruto is popular with highschoolers
Hence the summer comments.

Anyways, is OP even around any more?

>>53582555
something to keep in mind is unless there's an open war going on, Genin are rarely put into missions that have a high risk of death, at least in places like Konoha

>>53582788
something to keep in mind is that the Chuunin Exams that Naruto participated in had an incredibly higher than normal average power level among it's entrants, not to mention a much higher amount of people entering than normal

>>53587500
Probably not.

Curious though, I stopped reading naruto a while back, and the last thing I remember was being introduced to all the Kage's and a bunch of other people all at once. Something about a meeting, and Naruto busts in during a chase I think. If I were to pick up from there and start reading again, how much reading do you think that would be?

I've heard some crazy shit goes down between where I stopped and where Naruto ends, but I don't know if it's worth it to finish.

>>53583359
I'd have to do some digging, but from what I remember we did some discussion of what the Ninja populations of each nation should be in past discussions on how to fix up the Naruto setting into something gameable

>>53587560
It's not worth it unless you're the type who refuses to leave things unfinished.

Naruto quickly spirals out into DBZ tier garbage. Only difference is DBZ at least is fun about it. Naruto tries too hard to be deep and meaningful. Just comes off as angst and brooding.

Episode 9 of Boruto has some good moments. Some of the key fights in Ship are fun to watch. Though some of the larger fights take a hit to their animation quality (Pain vs Naruto).

That's about it.

Oh, and the ending is a fucking joke.

>>53587615
>(Pain vs Naruto)

It's called "stylizing," you philistine.

>>53587632
It was ugly as fuck and you know it.

>>53587647
I was being sarcastic.

>>53587654
Regardless, it was still ugly as fuck.

You shouldn't defend it, even in jest.

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>>53587674
It's not my fault you have no appreciation for the work of famous Japanese guest animators/directors.

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>>53587715
Easy on the mayo anon. This isn't a Napoleonic drama.

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>>53587615
>Oh, and the ending is a fucking joke.

I can't honestly hate anything that created so much collective asshurt among shippers, though.

>>53587752
A life time supply of sodium.

>>53584351
>it's still kind of ridiculous that a giant fan is seen as an acceptable weapon
Nah, that weird shit goes hand in hand with the style of the show, same with the energy-eating sharkskin sword.

>>53587788
No way. Up till the giant fan the only giant weapons had all been proper blades: Zakuza's and the big ass Fuuma Shurikens. Big blades are what made sense

>>53587884
Pretty sure fan girl's thing was wind magic.

So the giant collapsing fan fits thematically.

>>53583359
>>53587562
okay found my notes from a thread we had back in February 2016 for a more RPG friendly Naruto setting;
okay thoughts on Shinobi populations for the various Villages(with the idea that the numbers need to be large enough for the term Shinobi World War to have meaning);

Stone- 20,000

Leaf- 18,000

Cloud- 17,000

Sand- 15,000

Mist- about 14,000 in total, but that's split between the two main sides in Mist's civil war, about 8,000 on the Mizukage Faction, and 6,000 on the Rebelling Clans Faction

Grass- 11,000(most numerous of the Minor Villages, a sign of them rising in prosperity due to Mist's decline from the Civil War)

Sound- 9,000(Sound's surprisingly fast growth for a village that officially only existed for about 20 years* partially comes from them absorbing the remnants of several lesser Villages and adopting quite a few Clans that had previously been non-Village aligned, and partially due to Sound having a highly aggressive program to find potential Shinobi among civilians to an extent that most villages haven't bothered with in decades)

Waterfall- 7,000(their relatively high population has to do with never having been invaded)

Rain- 6,000

most other Minor Villages(and some of the largest Independent Clans) number 5,000 or under, while Land of Iron isn't listed due to not having Shinobi(although their Samurai population is probably somewhere between Mist and Cloud numbers)

also should we take into account any of the Anime filler, Movies, or Game original content for this, cause it'd certainly expand our options, often in rather interesting ways

>>53587914
This. Zabuza was basically a meme villain anyway.

>>53588048
imo Sand should me more sparsely populated because

1. It's stated early in the series that they have to focus on quality over quantity due to budget cuts.
2. They live in a fucking desert, and it's hard to sustain large populations in such conditions.

>>53588056
*kisame

>>53584254
I'd make samurai armored opponents. Steal that shit from the first movie about that armor that steals chakra. It reinforces why ninjas are stealthy and have to be clever. Trying to fight a samurai one on one in a fair fight you'd get your shit kicked in.

>>53588916
And their country (the Land of Iron) is named after the special chakra stealing ore they make all their shit out of.

>>53585953
>Monk/Psywar in a party of high level wizards

>>53588943
>>53588916
>show talks light about Daimyos of the country and that they have an army
>samurai show up at the page the summit
>samurais never end up doing anything
I think that's one of the disappointing things. Like having an arc where Team 7 has to track down this rogue ronin who's killing ninjas. Someone tries to use chidori or rasengan on him and his armor cancels it.

So much wasted potential with that fucking series

>>53585953
>even Metal Lee suffers to people with superior genetics

Fuck Kishi

>>53584620
See, for lee its fine. Because he has a significant handicap otherwise. He NEEDS that shit to be powerful. He doesn't have the techniques or skills most ninja would use.

Instead, he will ninja through sheer speed and power. That is one thing i quite liked.

I'm a huge Naruto fan, so maybe I'm biased. Here's what I would fix

>explain why feudal lords have control over ninjas
>reduce level of god tier people
>keep legends legendary
Hashirama was a god among ninja, stronger than even madara, and he was eclipsed (heavily) 50 years later
>reduce eye powers
Sharingan was amazing in the zabuza arc and powers like tsuliyomi and amaterasu should have been the height of it's prowess. Ems should not exist, using the sharing should cause perma blindness
>no sage of sixth paths mode
>Naruto should not have befriended kurama. The height of their relationship should have been a respect from the fox at Narutos powers
>keep the fights about being strategic not who can fling a bigger bomb
>chakra levels should be relevant. Managing bow much energy you have was a great aspect in the early show
>reduce the use of edo tensei. Bring back some main guys who died to pain, ressurect madara and hashirama. But spent start rezzing the entire casualty of war list.
>

>>53586043
>TFW you realize your monk is basically rock lee

Feels bad man.

>>53589282
>and he was eclipsed (heavily) 50 years later

Major theme of the manga (and lots of manga) is the new generation shitting on the old because things always get better and more refined with time. Which is true in real life, usually.

>>53587289
>Lets treat the volatile nuke like shit, that's smart

>>53589481
Yea but the level Hashirama achieved. Records aren't broken every year, it takes someone special. When Hashirama appeared he was no where neat the powerlevel of practically everyone else he was alongside. Hell it's happening even now in boruto, Naruto and sasuke have been hinted as being eclipsed.

They fought GODS

People who make their way into legend aren't undone immediately after. Then there would be no legend

>>53589569
And the most hilarious thing is that they still barely reach saiyan saga level BS.

>>53589282
>>explain why feudal lords have control over ninjas

Japanese people have a VERY strong sense of heirarchy.

>>53589282
I would have actually preferred it if the Hokages had gotten stronger over time rather than weaker, as was implied early on when old, weak Sarutobi wasn't scared of fighting Hashi and Tobi but made it a top priority not to fight zombie Minato.

>>53589663
And Minato was not that powerful in fact, only fast, and then turned out Tobirama was as fast

>>53589588
Different shows, different worlds.

Look at guts from berserk. That guy is dumb strong but would get blown to pieces by the shittiest dbz character

>>53589663
That is not to say, however, that Tsunade should have been stronger than Minato. She should have been the first hokage who wasn't stronger than her predecessor, which kind of makes sense because she actually comes from the generation preceding Minato's.

My problems with Naruto are the prophecies and the "Naruto was meant for greatness all along". Now dont get me wrong, i love Naruto but i just feel like it shits on how it was about making best of the shitty situation and how you are the only one that could define your own destiny even if part of it is dictated by parents/clan/superior/whatever. The whole prophecy business makes fight against Neji and his "pre-ordained destiny" meaningless.

I just feel that if Neji had lived to hear the endgame revelations he would have decided that he was right all along on destiny and how some were just better as decided by fate/plot.

I feel that everything after Peins invasion should have been left for the sequel with say, Boruto or somesuch as protagonist. It would have reset the powercreep and made Kaguya Otsutsuki undeeded or repurposed as someone who sends heroes on the fantastic guest to prevent the Juubi from threatening the world a second time with Madara as antagonist and Sasuke as the redeemable villain. And Tobi as Tobi being the midboss.

Maybe Juubi is regaining strength by leeching chakra from the world itself, killing the world slowly, causing summon animals to search for culprit. Maybe Tobi has a harebrained Plan Z to drag moon to the ground and and animate the Juubis sealed body against the heroes. Maybe samurai were backing Juubis guest to take chakra back from humans all along. Maybe Orochimaru actually stays dead this time. Anything is possible when you start anew.

What is the number of ninjas a hidden village should have?

>>53590009
Enough to accommodate the plot

>>53590009
I'm thinking low thousands at the most. Ninjas aren't an army, they're operatives. It's because ninjas have become so hypercompetent that the countries don't go to war anymore for any other reason than the ninja clans are having a spat. Otherwise, they keep the peace remarkably well.

>>53584719
did they re do the setting?
Interesting bits of lore from that new setting? Pretty please with sugar on top?

>>53585014
yes, but to get to 30 millions mooks with guns you need centuries to develop said guns.
And as soon as ninjas realize the potential of guns all the "inventors" will disappear in a night.

Anyone knows of cool fanfics that tries to fix setting?

Stuff like In FIre Forged and Chiaroscuro?

>>53590009
I brought up some numbers that were thought up in a old thread in >>53588048 that I think work fairly well

>>53590052
>I'm thinking low thousands at the most. Ninjas aren't an army, they're operatives. It's because ninjas have become so hypercompetent that the countries don't go to war anymore for any other reason than the ninja clans are having a spat. Otherwise, they keep the peace remarkably well.
feels a bit too low in my opinion, especially since it'd make the Shinobi World Wars feel like a massive misnomer

>>53590416
>it'd make the Shinobi World Wars feel like a massive misnomer

Don't think of it as a World War that involves Shinobi.

Think of it as a War that involves the Shinobi World.

Lot has been said, I'd think best one is to avoid tonal shift at end of chuunin arc.
Keep powerlevel down and focus being ninja.

Ultimately I suppose the flaws that grew could be attributed to manga becoming popular and being kept at lifesupport no matter what- yet there were some later concepts and characters that endeared me. But lot of stuff could and should be ignored.

Ninja eugenics is fine when kept in certain perspective. Child soldiers and eugenics do make for somewhat interesting background material.

>>53585036
I don't mind this, but I don't think it should have a practical application on the story

What could be an explanation on why they treated Naruto. A living nuke like shit and didn't train him when young?

Why?

I like the setting fundamentally. You can do a lot of metal gear type stuff in it ideologically, while staying closer to samurai/ninja conception of loyalty.

The worldbuilding is okay. I even like most of the ending. Kaguya is fine.

What basically completely ruins the manga though, is the fact that Neji was 100% right. The entire first part of the manga has this really cool build up about the value of hard work and special birth, and the logical way to end it would be to have either Rock Lee beat Gaara, or have Naruto beat Neji. The problem is that Naruto beats Neji by using his jinchuuriki powers, which basically means he is cheating far harder than Neji, and we slowly learn that ironically Naruto is actually ubermensch reincarnation of Jesus of the setting, and Neji was completely outmatched.

You could argue that Gai kicking Madara's shit in at the end could be taken as the true conclusion of this storyline, which is another thing that makes it fine for me, but too little, too late.

>>53582788
Iruka is fine. He probably had his ass handed to him in the tournament at the end, but that's normal and everybody who lost there became chunin anyway.

>>53589877
I like the way you think. Does that mean that after Boruto's adventure ended we'd be getting his son Coruto's adventure now?

>>53590661
They trained everybody when young though. Hey, here's a fanfiction for you.

You know how early in the show, like first episode, Naruto was SHIT. Like, the worst in his class, a consistently failing student who struggled with the simplest of jutsu? Maybe word got out that he was so crappy at training that all the people who knew about it, the adults who were afraid of the fox, realized that Naruto was absolutely no threat to anybody. So they went from being afraid of him to just treating him like shit because they felt he was responsible for the destruction while also no longer being afraid of him.

>>53589605
>>53589282
>>>explain why feudal lords have control over ninjas

Ninjas don't understand shit about managing a country. So Hokage let's actualy competent people run the show and steps in only in time of war. Same reason Generals do no control US president.

>>53586577
The cool idea is ninja gulf states not Naruro itself

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>>53590311
You're fucking retarded mate.

Firearms already exist in Naruto, go read chapter 19 and pay attention.

Also, we already know they have the means to launch shit into space, an even bigger danger than firearms. How? Because they have fucking receiver dishes all over the fucking place.

The nations of Naruto basically went from Edo to Heisei, skipping the two world wars in-between. Instead they just had Ninja Vietnam and a unification war.

>>53593030
The dishes could be there to pick up a transmission from hokage tower, the tallest building in the village. You don't need a satellite to use a dish antenna

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>>53593454
>the tallest building in the village.
This is false.

But that would make sense except when said dishes are on a tower above the Hokage residence and they're orientated at a target well above the horizon.

>>53586904
No. Just the like, three fourteen year olds who don't have the common decency to lurk.

>>53593524
Maybe there's other broadcasting stations across the land of fire?

>>53581635
I know exactly why its shit. Kishi made a story about wizards. The publishers didnt think wizards would sell. So he took his script and crossed out all instances of wizard with ninja, mana with chackra, and magic with ninjutsu.

>>53593904
And they're about 45-60 degrees off the horizon?

Not likely. Unless they're using "stationary" balloons as relays, but that's a whole other mess of issues.

Just except it, Naruto is a modern setting with all the tech of a modern society, including space travel (even magic space travel) and modern arms, Kishi just hand waved them all away because he's a comic artist, not an engineer.

Which is part of why Naruto is such shit.

>>53594171
You could easily craft a consistent and fun setting from those ideas, though.
I'd not pack in space technology, but balloons don't seem impossible with the weird magic enhanced technology they have.

>>53594629
Great, so do that.

But that's not Naruto. So don't call it Naruto.

And don't forget the impact modern arms have had on the world. And saying they wouldn't exist because a small percent of the population can perform magic is just wrong when you remember that anti-magic metal exists and your average ninja is vulnerable to even normal firearms.

>>53584351
>but it's still kind of ridiculous that a giant fan is seen as an acceptable weapon.
Nah the fans & shit were absolute ninja kino

I never watched fillers.

What were the best/most interesting ideas from them.

Someone mentioned a chakra absorbing meatl. What else?

>>53595255
The first movie is centered on a movie star, and has the team go watch a movie she's in, so it introduces that industry, I guess? Along with some snow country where the bad guy uses the chakra absorbing metal to outfit his people and arm himself. I'm drawing a blank on the rest of the movies. Some other anon talk about those?

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>>53595255
While the fillers were shit they did get down interesting gimmicks. Usually, this was handled terribly but it did show low powered limited ninjas using their shtick to the fullest. When they didn't just copy the powers of a character popping up in the next arc that is. Seriously the filler arc immediately before Hidan & Kakazu has a woman who's powers are literally Kakazu's minus the wires. But instead of his hearts, it's what wig she's wearing.

But they did do good sometimes;

Hoshigakure had a fallen meteorite that had a radiation which provides a huge chakra boost with a very dense concentration that can be employed in a number of ways, usually just by emitting the chakra similar to the Hyuga. The downside is the radiation causes cancer. And the only way to recharge the meteorite powers is more exposure to the meteorite. Also, gas masks because plenty of the surrounding land has noxious fumes. The only thing that annoyed me was that the Village hidden in the stars is in the land of bears. But I guess it throws in a Chernobyl parallel

There are several Shino clones. One uses wasps in a filler & another uses spiders in a movie

Then there's stuff like the ninja who summoned various plants to the battlefield whose pollen & vines would cause various predicaments. A ninja with a Kekkai Genkai allowing her to use "Crystal Style" ninjutsu. She was pretty cool in the application. Crystal armour, rooting people in place & large blunt objects just growing at her need. The fifth movie has a village specializing in airborne hit & run tactics with gliders & a carrier. Sadly they're not the focus & the rest of the movie is terrible.

Naruto filler has some really cool ideas but sadly terrible execution

>>53595255
Fist fights on the fucking moon.

>>53594730
>But that's not Naruto. So don't call it Naruto
The point of this thread is to identify and alter the Naruto world to make it more consistent. If some people want to lean into the technology vs Magic aspect of the series that Kishimoto ignores that is fine. Anything we make will inevitably not be "naruto" but you are missing the point.

And yeah, Kishimoto did start off pretty strong hinting at the presence of more modern technology but drops it after the Chuunin exam for the most part. Before that you had readily displayed telephone poles, electronic sign boards, firearms, satelite dishes, etc. Even during the Ninja War people were using throat mounted walkie-talkies.

>>53589663
This seems more appropriate. It's not that everyone back in the day was a god, but rather that their reputations grew and the few actual god-tier things (like the Rinnegan) were forgotten by the modern generation.

>>53596350
Techs still all over the place even after the Chuunin exam, it's just not important because even 12 year old's are walking gods at that point.

>>53596578
>because even 12 year old's are walking gods at that point

One thing they never did in Naruto was show a chuunin with no special abilities but lots of experience defeat one of the main genin kids who had a special ability but less combat experience. That would have helped the setting a lot imo. Instead, Kishi went the opposite direction with Sauce defeating two chuunin in the very first arc.

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>>53596855
Two words: target audience.

When you're siphoning money out of pic related you generally have to bury your pride as an artist.

>>53581635
You can't fix anime without removing the anime part of it.

>>53596578
>it's just not important because even 12 year old's are walking gods at that point.
Which if you ave been reading the thread, is something that people have a problem with.

>>53587752
this. It makes über-genetics and switching out eyeballs on a casual base almost tolerable

>>53590696
Boboto would now fight film villains

>>53597413
>Anime
That word doesn't mean what you think it means

>>53598291
Naruto is an anime, you know? Not even him.

>>53598123
No, really? Thanks for your insight Sherlock.

>>53582788
Iruka is canonically jonin tier. He just likes to teach instead so he never bothered to go up.

>>53598379
And Jackass and the Schindler's list are movies, see my point?

>>53598379
Except not all anime has those "anime parts" he mentioned, those parts belong to a genre called shounen.

>>53598483
Yes, they are movies that is correct. The point is you like movies, I guess? But this is an anime thread.

>>53598510
Are you implying anime can be good, and this anime, in particular, is shite?

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>>53588048
I think in canon datafiles the leaf village actually has more ninja than the stone.
In order:

General population:
Leaf 5/5, Stone 4/5, Cloud 3/5, Mist 2/5, Sand 2/5

Ninja Population:
Cloud 4/5, Stone 4/5, Leaf 3/5, Mist 3/5, Sand 2/5

Economic power:
Cloud 5/5, Everyone else 2/5

Cloud canonically best village

>>53598402
Your welcome. Anything else obvious you need pointed out?

>>53598588
I'm implying that the problems this manga has are entirely related to the genre it belongs, shounen which is basically capecomics for teenagers. And yes, Anime and Manga can be good, Spirited Away, Nausica, Princess Mononoke, etc are proof of it.

>>53598728
So you claim the genre shonen has all the same problems this anime has? Go ahead, find the exception. I will wait.

>>53598610
Could you demonstrate how to properly hang yourself?

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>>53598771
Kino comic

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>>53598771
Here ya go Kiddo. But I would recommend you seeking some form of help if you're feeling suicidal.

>Shonen
>genre

>there are no good shonen manga
>most of jojo, slam fucking dunk and kenshin exist

>>53598748
I literally posted you three examples.

>>53598880
Those aren't shonen shows, my anime friend, quick google is my backup.

>>53598833
>>53598837
Great instructions.

I asked for a demonstration.

>>53598902
>Says anime is shit
>Prove him wrong
>Still says anime is shit
>Redirect him to my post
>"Those aren't shonen"
Are you Captain Goalpost Mover?

>>53598866
Kenshin is fucking trash dude, take off the nostalgia googles and try to watch it again. It's fucking boring shit for women.

>>53598911
Instructions are made by demonstrators.

>>53596898
Well, the purpose of this thread is to amend.

>>53598931
And it's failing terribly.

>>53598923
>Says anime is shit
>Deflects and claim the genre is shit
>Ask to find exception to the rule in the shonen genre
>Redirects himself to his post (even though there was no relation to my new request for understanding anime)
>I explain to him that his meme movies aren't shonen
>he gets mad and greentexts me the whole story, as if it didn't happen literally 3 minutes ago
Are you Captain Slowpoke? What shonen don't fall into the anime genre like Naruto does?

>>53598975
>shonen genre
Shonen is an age demographic anon.

>>53598975
I had to post it to you again because clearly, and by your greentext, you're completely lost.

>>53599006
>>53599024
Guys, he's baiting, stop

>>53599006
>>53599024
>literally no examples
So it looks like we are in agreement? Shonen genre, and by similarity to the anime genre, are both utter shit.

You could not think of one anime that breaks the shonen rule of shit.

>>53599006
Well talk about it with the other guy, I don't watch anime. He said its a genre so I go by that.

>>53598956
We've settled on a few things so far.

1. Power levels should be fixed to about where they were during the Chuunin Exam Arc. Fights between the most powerful ninja are about technique variety and quick strategy, rather than outright power.

2. The relationship of power between little kid ninjas and grown up ninjas should actually make sense, even if the little kid has a special technique.

3. Politics between the hidden villages should be more fleshed out (this is rather vague, but we haven't had consensus).

4. Many of the bullshit powers (or even entire clans) should be excised and tailed beasts should be far greater threats than they became.

5. The setting must decide whether it's modern or it isn't. This is because technology actually has an effect on how effective ninja are.

6. Samurai should also be more of a threat, using brute force and possibly chakra absorbing metals to counteract ninja cunning.

We're making progress, and I don't doubt that this thread will get a sequel.

>>53599072
>Movies are shit because capemovies are shit
Nice logic you have there

>>53599107
capeshit is good, though

>>53599072
Not him, but just so you shut up:
Samurai Champloo, Berserk, Vinland Saga and Fullmetal Alchemist, just for example.

>>53599087
>I don't doubt that this thread will get a sequel.
Probably because you're going to make one for some reason.

As far as 6, I see no reason why Samurai shouldn't have access to a similar pool of ki powered techniques. If anything the Samurai should be the ones with all the flashy Taijutsu and Ninjutsu fighting magic.

>>53599209
Three of those are Seinen not Shonen.

>>53599087
I don't mind powerlevels if they aren't handled like candy.
Stuff like Hashimara and Madara reshaping the landscape was pretty cool...till you discover it happened literally 40 years ago and that any dude can do that now

Leave the ninja gods who fought in 1001 battles be ninja gods

>>53599241
In the series, samurai could channel chakra through their swords to extend their range/make them into entirely different weapons. I actually found it rather lame, especially since Chojuro and Asuma could already do that shit.

I'd rather samurai be the kind of smart anti-magic normies that /tg/ loves so much. They realize that ninja have them beat when it comes to all the crazy shit they can do, so they armor up in magic-resistant gear and start operating operationally.

>>53599274
>Stuff like Hashimara and Madara reshaping the landscape was pretty cool...
no

>>53599087
What's the deal with applying the samurai/ninja Dynamic from our world to their world? Their ninja have different roots from our ninja and make up the majority of the military powers for a reason. Samurai are the minority specialist group here that need to play things cool with how ninjas have more techniques, numbers and resources.

>>53599363
There's a specific phrase in a certain Latin language that describes how I feel about this.

>>53599274
I wasn't a fan. If you're going to have superpowered beings (not even ninja) with massive powers, then give them the Rinnegan rather than just DBZ-level wood and fire jutsu.

>>53599412
If its in latin then its understandable, post it you cuckmaster

>>53599458
More like HAD them, they're dead and long ago, that's why I'm fine with them being powerful

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>>53599469

>>53599087
samurai have no place in naturo

>>53599363
>operating operationally
SO samurai become the actual ninjas and go kill Naruto ninjas when they least expect it?

>>53599720
>Naruverse: Were Ninja are Wizards and Samurai are Special Operators.

Well. That's enough autism for me.

>>53599491
I get you, but I'd rather the DBZ-level beings not be ninja is all. I'm talking like Tailed Beasts and mystical sages.

>>53599720
I should have used a different phrase. What I meant to say was, they try to use brute force tactically, kind of like a rugby/real football team. Like, they try to force ninjas to actually fight instead of hiding, so they're really good at spotting and disabling traps. They also work in large units.

I'm having a hard time explaining what I'm thinking.

>>53590438
eh the former is more interesting than the latter

>>53590461
honestly a lot of the stuff early on in Shippuden is also fine, it's only at a certain point that the power levels get absolutely ridiculous

>>53595255
there was the Bichoku Search Mission arc(episodes 148-151) which expanded upon the Aburame's techniques, as well as introducing other insect based ninja from outside Konoha

>>53598601
yeah but that doesn't give hard numbers, also some of the shifting around in numbers in my post is to accommodate some of the changes that had already been discussed surrounding that attempt at fixing the Naruto setting into something more gamable

also we've hit the bump limit, someone should make a new thread soon

>>53599972
Or have actual wizards. People that doesn't have the physical prowess of ninja but are knowledgeable enough to do complex rituals that are high magic but not useable on the fly.
> Wizards/sages discover chakra through erudition or mysticism
> Samurai develop a more modest but straightforward combat usage for chakra
> Ninja is the "latest" development, more tacticool ridden of both mysticism and honour code, but are seen as despicable and have to create hidden villages

Naruto power levels were fine up until the fight with Pain. Susano'o should have remained unique to Itachi or if Sasuke uses it, remain the rib cage and arms, no giant chakra mech.

>>53586555
God I love the shadow clone technique. This, right here, is what I would change about canon. I wanted to see Naruto abuse that to hell and back. Every engagement should involve at least five Narutos at any given time. That's what his fighting style should have turned into. Endless clones, substitutions, acrobatics and the constant mind game of "is that the real one" that ends with a storm of kunai that's hiding a transformed Naruto with a rasengan, and then the rasengan drops the henge and it's Naruto with another rasengan.

And then both clones pop and in the ensuing smoke cloud Naruto climbs out of the ground and kicks them in the balls.

It would have been a more natural progression of his childhood spam tactics and a lot more in line with the sneaky ninja theme than flying and energy blasts.

Plus, we could have had a where's Waldo-esque game of spotting the random background Narutos in Konoha because he never doesn't have a few clones just out screwing around. It's not like he'd miss or even notice the chakra cost.

>>53600670
Better that they stay legends than being a class of fighters in the modern world. Naruto is supposed to be centered around ninjas, and only one country on the continent focuses on samurai.

>>53600670
>Or have actual wizards. People that doesn't have the physical prowess of ninja but are knowledgeable enough to do complex rituals that are high magic but not useable on the fly.
we discussed having a class of Monks to be able to that sort of thing in previous discussions

>>53600750
Sarcasm?

>>53600891
Nah I think he's serious.

Imho talking animal should be a village resource.

Every village has it own ninja animal village they keep hidden and train said animals.

>>53600670
>Wizards
Naruto's ninja are basically that, Kishimoto in reality wanted to make a manga about wizards.

And the term should be Shugenja, which is technically a Japanese wuxia elemental wizard.

>>53593524
>>53594171
I get what you're saying, but this is basically complaining about using one of Scratchys ribs to play two different notes. Kishi's a cartoonist, he wasn't thinking about the correct angles of receiver dishes to propagate radio signals. He just drew something that looked cool and got the general point across. Trying to rationalize it is pointless at best and willfully spiteful at worst.

>>53600927
...so he didn't read or watch the show at all?

>>53600750
>Waldo-esque game
You know that Oda in One Piece actually does this?

>>53600960
Well, the purpose of this thread is to amend.

>>53600988
I think I'm missing something, Naruto already spammed the hell and back of KB, every damn fight had KB, literally his finishing moves in ever fight ever were KB + rasengan. His whole repertorie of jutsus were KB variantions and rasegan variations, the "is this the real one" is something done ad nauseam...and that's they think he wished to see?...again, sarcasm?

Cloud Village doesn't change at all

>>53582481
They tried doing something like that in the beginning, but naruto dropped any themes it had like a super-heated potato after the chunin exams ended.
Remember when hard work and determination vs. natural talent was a theme?
Kishi doesn't either.
Basically, naruto was decent back when it was a ninja-flavored hunter x hunter fanfic.

>>53585953
Rock Lee not being around is the worst thing they could have ever done.
After gaara bailed his ass out when he fought kimimaro, he was never relevant again.

>>53601261
that's the fate of secondaries

>>53601153
I remember in the old threads that we were going to give all the ninja villages different mo's and genin-training styles. But still, a village full of black and white people in not!Japan will always be interesting.

>>53589481
>new generation shitting on the old
I like this when done in the way of Nasuverse magi. Magic is so time consuming to understand and improve that you have magi children specifically to continue the work. Old magi families are scary because they have generations worth of work backing up the latest and greatest students. I think that sort of model would fit well with the ninja families/clans/villages.

What are good bloodlines/techniques/weapons for not leaf villages?

>>53601762
Well, Mist has lava and steam releases and the seven swordsmen. Used to have ice, too, but that bloodline died out apparently.

>>53601762
On top of the usual two or three elements mix? like Hyoton (ice), Yoton (magma), Bakuton (explosion), Jinton (magnet) etc? you have the bones one from Kimimaro (Shikotsumyaku), or the spider powers one from kidoumaru, or was that experiments and not actual a kekkai genkai?

>>53599087
Imma use this in the OP of the next thread.

>>53601132
Yeah, but... it basically boiled down to "three or four clones bumrush the enemy, while another helps make a rasengan". There's this one attack in one of the games, where he spawns a few hundred clones and they all charge and dogpile the enemy. Then they all grab onto each others ankles and make a clone chain with the opponent on one end and Naruto on the other, and he whip cracks them through the air and slams them into the ground. It's awesome looking, and I'd have preferred ridiculous stuff like that instead of just pulling on Kyuubi when he's in trouble.

Now, I'm saying all this, but in the sake of honesty I should say I haven't seen the whole show or manga. Other than a few bits and pieces I've seen online, I haven't really seen all the endgame stuff. So if it gets used more creatively, that's great.

New thread's up

>>53602667

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>>53598588
>Trolling this bad
Fuck off special-needsfag