Space Marines weak in 40k RPG?

>>53575800
>The WS and BS scores (both for NPCs and avg chargen values for BC SMs) seem low for superhuman killing machines w/ super reflexes

They scale quickly with the right talents. The Rank 3 Space Wolves Assault of one of my players can have over 100% on some tests. As for BS, you add in fulll-auto bonus and stuff like suspensors, etc. you are a walking killing machine.

>This doesn't seem right compared to the fluff's talk of superior reflexes and attack speed.
The difference is in the talents and the squad mode/solo mode capabilities.

>There's a decent chance of losing a versus strength check to 35 Str guardsman, a
True, the system has its flaws. But there is next to 0 chance that he loses a fist fight with said guardsman. Also, Unnatural Strength(x2) gives a bonus of +2 DoS on Opposed S tests. This can be buffed with Solo Mode abilites.

>How fix?
It would be too wide-ranging, you would have to do a homebrew from scratch.

>>53576009
>They scale quickly with the right talents.
>The difference is in the talents and the squad mode/solo mode capabilities.

Could you give some examples of those talents? Also, how applicable would squad/solo abilities be to a BC SM?

>>53576009
Isn't the losing a strength check thing unlikely because of unnatural strength adding some kind of bonus?

>>53576198
It only kicks in on a successful check in OW/BC/DH2. Not sure on DH1/RT/DW

>>53575800
>>53576126
Don't have examples, but basically 40k RPGs are games about getting a bunch of situational modifiers from your equipment, the terrain, the action your taking, and other miscellaneous shit that changes from turn to turn. A well played character makes every roll in their specialty with at +60 situational bonus. That means that if characters' stats are much above 40, there's literally no point in rolling because they have to roll under a 110 to hit, so they always get margin even on a 99.

>>53576238
IIRC you multiply your success score by the degree of Unnatural characteristic on an opposed check. So a Space Marine can still, theoretically, lose against a guardsman. However that's still pretty unlikely as the guardsman has 35 strength tops, and the Space Marine has at least 20+ Strength from armor.

>>53576312

If they're not about that, they're about having lots of spare characters available, Paranoia style.

I've played both ways.

>>53575800

Space marines in general are good but only their heroes and veterans are truly exceptional among humanity.

The average tactical marine has been hyped up in black library crap for the past decade when in reality a lot of marines are a bit too brainwashed to really advance beyond their training.

But PC space marines clearly aren't that, and exceptional space marines become absurdly strong in the overall 40k tier ranking very quickly

File: 1445008551582.png (491KB, 900x617px) Image search: [Google]

491KB, 900x617px

>>53575800
I run a DW party since more than Two years now, believe me : The marines aren't weak. Yes a new group with fresh players rank 1 could seems a bit weak. But when they will increase theirs WS/BS to the point that with the bonuses they have nearly zero chance of miss the target you will regret the good old time.

I have a player who play an Assault Black Templar, he has 72 WS, with many hates, scourge of the heretics and hunter of aliens.

If he attack a xenos, he is at 82 WS, if he has the hatred 92. Look at the stat of the monsters and tell me they stand a chance. And i don't talk about the fact that the xenos could be a psyker if so, that's another +10WS thank to the hatred(psykers). And he is only rank 4.

Honestly don't worry about your players being too weak. You'll see, after some thousands of xp spent they will be not seem so weak. Just don't throw powerful ennemies and strong hordes against them at the beginning.

And use the errata's stats for weapons unless you want to see your devastator tearing appart a Hive Tyrant in 2-3 shots.

>>53576766
To be honest I'm more concerned about NPCs than PCs. I know DW are all vet marines so their power levels make sense, but where should a tac marine be in terms of WS/BS? 45 just doesn't seem right.

>>53577377

Why? That's about the equivalent of BS4 and with proper equipment and range they'll hardly ever miss

>>53577486
Because degrees of success matter for things like multiple hits from automatic fire and such.

Also, I really don't understand why people try to convert from the wargame to the rpg. The wargame has to be competitively balanced, so there's no way you're going to get the crazy difference the power level the fluff has. Nobody would buy IG for the numbers you would need for such a thing, and GW would never want a SM squad to have the force it's supposed to b/c that means less models sold.

>>53577548
That is to say, an equivalent-force SM army would be reduced to far too models if such were true.

>>53577548

It really depends on your head fluff about how strong nameless marine grunts are.

I personally think the newbie deathwatch stats are pretty decent for an average marine. They can take on quite a few guardsmen themselves but will get overwhelmed.

A lot of fans bought into the wank though and treat each tactical marine as if they were a chapter master which I think just sets yourself up for disappointment.

>>53577548
>Also, I really don't understand why people try to convert from the wargame to the rpg.

High spectrum literal autism.

>>53577600
I'm not really that opposed to the concept of being wrong and grunt SMs being a lot more meh than I thought, but the fluff just doesn't seem to support it. A tac marine has the super reflexes and equipment on top of decades (or maybe even centuries) of experience in the Devastator and Assault companies. And the result of that is a WS or BS score comparable to a talented (but unaugmented) stormtrooper, inquisitor, or canoness who managed to get a few decades of experience? That doesn't make sense for it all to round off to about 50 WS/BS.

Like, the fact that they could be overwhelmed by a bunch of guardsman (barring heavy armor or the like of course), when they have reputation for being able to destroy whole armies on their own, is crazy to me.

>>53577619
I can't really be mad at them for that considering my own autism with this though.

Well, less autism, more OCD, but you see my point.

>>53577741

Like I said, for a lot of marines their training and mental treatments leave them a bit lacking in creativity. BS50 means you can hit a nickel thrown in the air with frightening regularity.

Also I wouldn't talk down about stormtroopers or sisters of battle, scions go through similar training to marines from a similar age, they just don't get augmented. Sisters are pulled from this group as well.

The schola progenium ain't no joke.

Inquisitors in general are the apex of unaugmented humanity, it's not crazy for them to be on par with joe-space marine.

Remember that many marines never make it to a century.

I've always been of the opinion that PC marines and NPC marines (in the lines where you play normal humans) should be treated differently. If you're playing the latter and want the marines to be more 'mythological', use the additive Unnatural Traits but bump WS/BS/Str/T/WP by 20 and Int/Fel/Agi/Per and wounds by 10. Adjust the numbers and trait levels according to how experienced they are.

>>53577600
Space Marines are mass produced biological weapons made from the exact same template. There is no way for there to be any stat differences between those of the exact same Chapter. A Chapter Master is just as strong and durable as a tactical marine grunt, the only difference between them (possibly) is artificer gear. However in general 1 marine is worth 100 men.

>>53578009

Strong as in overall badassness, not literal strength

Although there are clear differences in physical attributes between space marines, some well known marines dwarf even other astartes (carcodons chapter master, FW exorcists captain, etc)

The "1 marine is worth 100 men" comes more from their strategic value rather than a literal 1v100 contest.

10 marines dropping from orbit and clearing an essential objective can do more to win a battle than 1000 guardsmen.

It doesn't mean one tactical marine can literally fight off 100 guardsmen alone.

>>53577600
>They can take on quite a few guardsmen themselves but will get overwhelmed

I'm almost positive if you had Deathwatch characters fighting Guardsmen you would use Horde rules anyway. Even the smallest Horde gives a +30 to hit, on top of +20 for full-auto fire. So a BS of 45 becomes 95, with each degree of success being an additional hit.

A standard-issue Bolter has a full-auto rate-of-fire of 4 and is explosive, meaning it gets an additional automatic hit. So that's potentially 5 hits. Each hit that deals any amount of damage (and with a 2d10+5 Pen 5 Tearing weapon, you'd have to roll exceedingly poorly to NOT deal damage to a Guardsman) reduces the Horde's Magnitude (Wounds, basically) by 1.

Magnitude doesn't mean the number of enemies in a horde, but instead represents numbers and determination as an abstract value. So a company of 100 poorly-trained PDF soldiers could be Magnitude 30, whereas a platoon of 25 elite stormtroopers could be much higher.

So depending on how you fluff it, a squad of 4 Astartes could definitely mow through a shitload of enemies in just a few seconds.

>>53577619

Its funny and sad, literally everyone in 40krpg general knows exactly who you mean when you say this.

>>53578123

Yeah that seems pretty reasonable and I'm glad they kept magnitude a bit vague on numbers.

Would a whole company only be magnitude 30 though? I don't have a ton of experience with deathwatch

>>53575800

>The WS and BS scores (both for NPCs and avg chargen values for BC SMs) seem low for superhuman killing machines w/ super reflexes. Normal PC base stats (DH/OW) range from 22 to 40 while the cream of the crop (RT/BC) range from 27 to 45. SM base stats are "only" from 32 to 50. This doesn't seem right compared to the fluff's talk of superior reflexes and attack speed.

But there are human groups that are just as good as marines on that front. Why should they be better than say, a SOB or an Arch-Militant?

>>53578271
SOB are inferior to Astartes in every department, they aren't aimbots like them.

>>53578243
Magnitudes and numbers are kept deliberately vague. Magnitude 30 is a "mob", magnitude 60 is a "thronged phalanx", magnitude 90 is a "massed assault", and 120 is a "serried tide of foes".

It's mostly up to GM interpretation.

>>53577741

>And the result of that is a WS or BS score comparable to a talented (but unaugmented) stormtrooper, inquisitor, or canoness who managed to get a few decades of experience?

A cannoness is a hell of a lot above a basic space marine, the peak of humanity and capable of superhuman miracles.

I mean, a cannoness beat two hive tyrants to death before she died in-canon.

>>53578284

Actually, that's literally the point of the SOB helmet. They are highly advanced on the targeting front.

They are also both BS 4.

>>53578327
However the normal Sister is fodder even in books about Sisters like Cult of the Warmason.

>>53578365

Not so much in other books, like Hammer and Anvil where a group of Sisters go through Necrons like a hot knife through butter while infiltrating their extradimentional fortress.

That and it wasn't talking about a normal Sister, it was about how a Tactical marine was 'Merely' as good as a Cannoness.

File: Concept.png (532KB, 600x815px) Image search: [Google]

532KB, 600x815px

>>53578426
Oh, I though you were talking about the scrubs.

Move along citizen, nothing to see here.

>>53575800
>Space Marine fluff is Imperial Propaganda
>In reality they're stronger than a guardsman but still get rekt by even basic xenos and demons etc.

Dunno shit about the system, but games are games, for the sake of balance and fun of every part involved you sometimes have to make sacrifices, so if the difference is not that big is maybe because balance issues. My char in PF moves at mach 3 and that doesn't mean if I punch a mofo at that speed he turns into jello.

>>53577377
without melta your players will not be able to harm the marine (in armor). either that or astartes-grade weaponry

>>53577600
>They can take on quite a few guardsmen themselves but will get overwhelmed.
are you kidding? they can take out 20 guardsmen without breaking in a sweat. you have any idea what a devastator with a heavy bolter will do?

>>53577741
>And the result of that is a WS or BS score comparable to a talented (but unaugmented) stormtrooper, inquisitor, or canoness who managed to get a few decades of experience?
welcome to 40K. that's exactly the case. mortal character models are as good as an average marine.

>>53579176
>welcome to 40K. that's exactly the case. mortal character models are as good as an average marine.

Or better in some cases. St Praxares (Only sainted after death, not like Celestine) was the SOB example who killed the crap out of two hive tyrants with her power maul before she died.

In 40k, heroism is generally more important than gene mods or superpowers.

>>53579176

Unless they're a rogue trader or inquisitor in which case said average marine will evaporate/dissintegrate/explode in some fashion in either melee or ranged

RPG of course