How come Warhammer has Chaos gods, but no Law gods? 1e Gods of

Law Gods nonwithstanding, everything good about the Universe is also incorporated in the Chaos Gods. Love in Nurgle, Hope in Tzeentch, etc.

It's just massively outweighed by the net shittiness of people's thoughts

Because Law Gods are generally uninteresting and not very popular.

Here, I'll show you: name two Law Gods in the Moorcock universe.

>>53560646
Ha, nice try! I can't even name two of Moorcock's Chaos gods!

>>53560454
They existed in early Warhammer Fantasy.

Its just that 40k got popular and ruined both settings.

Well, that and Games Workshop had no idea how copyright works and the guys who created them were fired trying to salvage the IP, taking most of early Warhammer with them.

>>53560669
This.

Moorcock sucks. So does Warhammer cosmology. I only know the WH ones because /tg/ memes about them nonstop.

>>53560454
The Old World pantheon has Verena, who is among various things the goddess of Law.
>>53560714
The cosmology can be interesting if you look beyond Chaos, even if it's very much based on Greco-Roman mythology for the Old World.

>>53560791
>Looking beyond Chaos

THE WORKSHOP GAMESHECKLES DOES NOT APPROVE THIS ACTION.

>>53560454
That would be the old Eldar gods. Most of them died when the dock god was born.

>>53560856
That's fucking wrong, you dumbass.

The Chaos Gods of Law are a Witch Hunter, Sleeping Beauty, and a fractal made of light.

>>53560454
I think Sigmar, The Old Ones and the Elven, Dwarfen and remaining human Gods fit that role In AoS at least . Ironically they're often more divided than the Chaos gods.

>>53560454
>Law Gods
That's literally what the Emprah is, you doofus.

Gav Thorpe said all gods are part of the 4 greater powers

>>53560454
>How come Warhammer has Chaos gods, but no Law gods?

Because the opposite of Chaos is typically represented by the mundane universe.

>>53561010
I would say the Emperor is the God of Ambition. He personifies that ladder climbing asshole who steps on everyone to reach his unrealistic and stubborn goals.

>>53560454
The Warp is shaped by emotion. Emotion is chaotic. Law is dispassionate, cold, without energy or personality.

>>53562686
So what would an anti-Warp be like?

>>53562755
It would be a realm of duty and what existentialists call bad faith, the polite fictions that keep society going, all the things that we don't really believe but tell ourselves we believe.

>>53560454
Technically speaking, warp deities are manifestations of residual emotional energy waves when people die. Most organisms are in a very chaotic state, emotionally, upon dieing, thusly they will usually carr regrets, anger or fear over into the otherworld.
We can therefore assume that lawful warp entities are rare and vanishingly weak compared to chaotic entities, as thw latter are fed more regularly and more intensely.

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>>53560454
The gods are a reflection of the times. The times are bad.

In WHFB they existed, but they weren't often referred to. They were replaced by race specific 'Gods' rather than universal Order vs Chaos.

>>53560454
>how come warhammer has chaos gods but no gods of law (excluding the gods of law)?

What did he mean by this

>>53560646
Arkyn, Donablas.

>>53562191
No that is literally Tzeentch.

>>53560454
As some anons said the four chaos gods also have some "good" characteristics but heavily warped in execution. But that's not the problem as it has potential if played right, is the low brow fluff writers that are chaosfags and shovel it as the endgame and hurr durr look how edgy is dis univerze all futile blah blah blah that just moves the machine to sell plastic soldiers. You can't blame geedubs for that as they are a fucking company but it's sad all the potential and fun just gone to waste to keep selling the big bad guys vs the forces of good but in space!

>>53560454
Wasn't Solkan pretty much Lawful Neutral personified, enforce the rules with an iron fist type of guy? You know, the one witch hunters used to worship before it was all Sigmar all the time.

>>53564169
Pretty much. Solkan was Lawful Neutral to the extreme, Arianka was Neutral to the neutral extreme, and Alluminas was Chaotic Neutral to the extreme.

I wonder who the fourth Law God is that GW never named or expanded on.

>>53564218
>Alluminas was Chaotic Neutral
>Alluminas
>Chaotic

No.

>I wonder who the fourth Law God is

There wasn't one. If you're simply trying to match numbers with the Chaos Gods then there'd be five, as Malal was canon at that time.

>>53564341
Alluminas was a disco ball of random light whose intentions were unknown sometimes even to the other Gods of Law. He wasn't evil but he's def the least orderly of the Order gods.

>there wasn't one

There was.

>>53564378
>he's def the least orderly of the Order gods.

No, he was hands down the purest incarnation of order.

>There was.

There wasn't.

>>53562907
You mean times are chaotic?

>>53562755
Basically, what things will be like after the heat death of the universe: cold, lifeless, uniform in its lack of anything interesting besides the occasional photon. And everything would be permanently frozen in time because otherwise something might change.

Warhammer 50k (one of the only good fanfics ever written) has a god of order come into being around the 50th millennium.
I swear it's good despite being a fanfic

>>53565746
The new lore of 40k as absolutely fucking horrible as it is hints to the concept of the Emperor becoming so powerful that he destroys Slaanesh and becomes a Chaos God of Order himself akin to the ones we saw in original WHF.

>>53561172
Gav Thorpe is shit, and the only things he writes that aren't shit is Dwarf lore and rules.

>>53562686
Emotion is chaotic only when it clashes.

Hence CHAOS gods of law.

>>53560454

Why does every thesis need an antithesis.

It's Machiavellian, it's mans inheritance to suffer.

>>53560454
I just came here to compliment OP on his fine taste.
Calvin and Hobbes for the win

>>53564218
Solken was Lawful Neutral. Basically St. Cuthbert in Warhammer Fantasy.

Arianka is basically the human Fantasy version of Ynnead, she was the embodiment of duty and morality and polar opposite of Slaanesh.

Alluminas was unknowable. Basically in the same manner as Tzeentch, but while Tzeentch is focused outwards Alluminas was focused inwards. Alluminas is unknowable but unchanging, even Tzeentch's myriad chaotic schemes fall into his perfect path. A mortal could claim to be in on Tzeentch's plans, but their head would explode trying to grasp all of them and all the variables while Alluminas is the exact same with variables replaced by patterns. In fact, the best way to think of Alluminas is Junji Ito's Spirals.

Whatever Nurgle's Law equivalent was is what we don't know anything about.

>>53564341
Malal was the outlier, and against the entire rest of Chaos. He also was the endgame of Chaos since Chaos is destined to win, then lose.

>>53565829
>Why does every thesis need an antithesis.
Because Games Workshop ripped off Moorcock, but only went halfway.

They overcompensated by making no less than ten different Elrics in Fantasy and three in 40k.

>>53562755

The anti-warp is the actual universe. A dimension governed by physical laws which cannot be broken without falling back on manipulation of the warp.

>>53562686
>Emotion is chaotic.
What about the feeling of Justice?
What about the feeling of belonging?
What about stable love?
What about the feeling of stability? What about feeling safe? The satisfaction of everything being in its place? Inb4 autism joke.
Inb4 not knowing those feelings.

>>53565870
I wish they would've expanded on Nurgle's law counterpart. God of Health sounds boring though.

Arianka, I wish they'd expanded on too. We know that Tzeentch was afraid of her, that somehow she was beaten, then for whatever reason locked into a tomb under Praag or somewhere else. With her keys scattered for whatever reason it's like GW planned a big storyline around her but gave up before it began.

In general I would've loved more expansions on the Law Gods, but for now anything on them has to be done through headcanon and/or expanding on them in WFRPG.

I do recall some wizards in Total War: Warhammer mentioning Alluminas though.

>>53565886
>is destined to win, then lose
Not anymore. Current lore is that they would be perfectly fine if the Materium merged with the Warp forever. Something about them existing in multiple universes.

>>53563449
Yeah it could be fun. Let the gods have multiple aspect for real and worshippers never knowing on which one they end up with.
I really want to see some khornate offering a whole city to Khorne only to be chastised because killing defenceless people isn't worth shit.
"But you said you did not care from where the blood flows..."
"NO, NEVER SAID THAT! WASN'T ME!"

>>53565977
>What about the feeling of Justice?
>What about the feeling of belonging?
>What about stable love?
>What about the feeling of stability? What about feeling safe? The satisfaction of everything being in its place?

Feeling pleasure.
Slaanesh.

>>53565870
>>53566024
The Law Gods weren't counterparts to the Chaos Gods, the closest you can get is Khorne and Solkan because both are portrayed as angry.

>Arianka, I wish they'd expanded on too. We know that Tzeentch was afraid of her,

Where was this stated?
Arianka was never expanded upon besides being locked in a box.

>>53566024
The opposite of entropy is movement.

If anything, Nurgle's opposite would be the theory of how the universe is eternal and after the entropic heat death all matter and energy will coalesce into another Big Bang and start a new universe.

So basically Sonic The Chaos God. Or Bomberman.

>>53566062
That's fucking stupid.

What, are they going to destroy every universe other than Blood Bowl?

If they keep wiping out universes even they'll end eventually.

>>53566138
The White Dwarf storyline involving Malal trying to destroy Arianka. Tzeentch considered her a threat to his own existence but figured he could corrupt her later so he trick'd her and got her locked up, but she was resilient to his influence and he couldn't destroy her without facing Solkan's wrath since they were pseudo-incestuous spouses so instead he ran off and threw away all the keys. Malal tasks one of his champions with fucking over both Tzeentch and Solkan by destroying Arianka and her tomb. The series was supposed to be a 4 (5?) parter that never got continued.

I don't remember the exact issue of White Dwarf the story appeared in.

>>53566174
Nope they exist beyond time and could simply keep mortals around in their own universe regardless.

>>53566174
>That's fucking stupid.

Conglaturation, you just summed up all of the End Times and Age of Sigmar.

>>53566262
Tzeentch is never mentioned.
Malal tasked his champion with helping, not destroying.

>>53566094
Just using a word from a god lexical field doesn't makes it its domain.
Or tzeentch plotting would be the PLEASURE of exercising power or the DESIRE for power, and so on for others gods and what do you know there is only Slaanesh.
You can do the same thing with any other gods and "prove" Khorne as well as Nurgle and Tzeench are each the only one god. Or with any god you can think of really.

>>53566300
I could be wrong, but I'm not so sure.

Got the issue # it shows up in?

>>53566276
Also 40k.

Blood Bowl is the only good GW setting, because it still is written with self-awareness.
>>53566266
Makes no fucking sense. Time itself doesn't actually exist in our own fucking reality beyond our perception, but cause and effect are still intertwined even if not truly sequential.

Do they just hire children to write the lore and sign their name on it like how Todd McFarlane used to do with Spawn artwork?

>>53566339
No, it was various citadel journals.

>>53566330
>Just using a word from a god lexical field doesn't makes it its domain.

Slaanesh's domain is pleasure though.
All you did was list a source of pleasures.

>>53566354
>Makes no fucking sense.

How not? They're outside of time. Thus blowing up a universe at a certain point in its timeline doesn't matter to them. Because they could always just go back.

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>>53566154
>Sonic The Chaos God
Oh that's calling out for the Hedgehog Challenge.

This is not a good pain.

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>>53566354
>Do they just hire children to write the lore and sign their name on it like how Todd McFarlane used to do with Spawn artwork?

Basically, yeah. They had some jerkdicks at Black Library write all the fluff who were either interns or extreme Chaos fanboys. The problem is and what makes GW just as guilty for ET/AOS/TGS(40k) is that GW reviewed and approved all the garbage they put out. They literally walked up to a pile of feces and stamped an approval sticker and price tag onto it and shipped it out. They allowed it to happen.

>>53560669
Arioch and Xiombarg are two, straight from memory.

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>>53566424
Let me rephrase this so you can understand it.

We, you and I, are outside time. WE ARE OUTSIDE TIME, YOU ARE OUTSIDE TIME (caps for emphasis, not shouting).

Time doesn't actually exist in reality. Not just in their fictional universe, OUR universe. Real life.

Time is the human perspective of how the universe actually works. Time is the observed result of the transfer of energy between matter. In the proto-state for the big bang there was no time until the first reactions occurred.

Cause still has effect, but only from the human perspective are these things sequential.

So the only way your statement works is either:
1) Cause and effect have no relationship to each other in the Warp, in which cause nothing can get done and Nurgle may as well be the only Chaos God because such a thing only happens in absolute stasis.
2) GW writers are fucking hacks who have a highschool graduate understanding of the world.

>>53566463
>extreme Chaos fanboys

Chaos is only ever used as a plot device though.

>>53566424
>Because they could always just go back.
But they can't since they are outside of time. To them, there would be no "back" to go!

Anyway, if the chaos gods are outside time and interacts with the 40k universe then time can't have any meaning in the 40k universe. That would be like trying to fill the left half of glass without the right half. It's either one way or the other.
But time works more often than not in real space, so the "outside of time" is demonstrably false in setting and just a cool sentence to throw out with no actual meaning.

And that's if not having time means something to begin with.

>>53566526
>WE ARE OUTSIDE TIME

Nope. We are very much inside space and so inside space-time.
Chaos is out-width it.

>>53566550
>if the chaos gods are outside time and interacts with the 40k universe then time can't have any meaning in the 40k universe.

They can if they choose to though.

>That would be like trying to fill the left half of glass without the right half.

Why would that be impossible for a god?

>>53566553
Time does not exist, how are you not getting this.
Time is human perspective.

You know how in HP Lovecraft works people go crazy because they start to see how the universe REALLY works, how there's no such thing as parallel lines and thus no such thing as enclosed spaces and they go mad babbling about things in the corners of rooms staring at them?

Okay, in real life we don't go crazy when we find out our perspective is an illusion. You currently perceive time, but time doesn't exist. Like an optical illusion, its not really there and is just a trick of the brain.

So the Chaos Gods can't be beyond time because there's no such thing as time, in our world or theirs. Because that's how shit works. Unless its fucking Discworld where gravity works because fuck you.

>>53566609
>Time does not exist, how are you not getting this.

Because it's not true to simply say it doesn't exist.

>>53566403
No. Her domain is excess. Enjoying a cookie doesn't feed her. Blowing your entire savings on girlscout crack and spending the next several hours cramming your face, however, does. A love of justice doesn't feed her. Being Javert/Judge Dredd tier probably does

>>53566654
It really doesn't. Its an illusion.

Cause and effect exist. They do not have to be sequential however, the metaphorical window can be broken before the metaphorical baseball goes through it.

In order for the Chaos Gods to be free from cause and effect, they have to exist in absolute stasis AKA Nurgle victory where nothing ever changes, moves, or occurs in any way. Because anything else would literally be cause and effect.

>>53566659
>No. Her domain is excess.

No, excess is not an emotion anymore than blood and skulls is an emotion.
Slaanesh is pleasure. Excess is just the most obvious representation of that.

>>53566675
I thought the actual definition of time WAS cause and effect...

>>53566726
Not in physics it isn't.

>>53566675
>It really doesn't.

But it does.

>In order for the Chaos Gods to be free from cause and effect

They've have their own rules in that regard, but exist outwidth the universe and so can interface with it at any point along the timeline.

>>53566763
It doesn't, and saying cause and effect have any other rules is like saying 2+2=fish and not explaining what the fuck that means. Its terrible writing.

>>53566777
>It doesn't

It does.

>Its terrible writing.

They're made of magic and from a different universe that doesn't obey our universe's physical laws. It's not terrible at all, you're just butthurt for some reason.

>>53566812
>you're just butthurt for some reason

Why is this every Chaosfag's response to valid criticism of their mary sue deities being overpowered, stupid, or broken?

>The Chaos Gods don't make any sense. They seem like senseless Mary Sues kept alive by shit writing.
>LOL Y R U SO BUTHURT

>>53566880
Because it's not valid criticism, it's hurtbutt lashing out. "Chaosfags" simply know the fluff better than you.

>>53566916
No, Chaosfags hang on a single prophecy in oldlore and then End Times/AoS for their views on the fluff and the Chaos gods.

It's fine too. We're all fans of the same thing here. The problem is typical Chaosfags will taunt and laugh and shit on everyone else and make false assumptions about some kind of "Chaos supremacy" idea and then source it with ET/AOS, the lore everyone hates, then call them butthurt when they say it's not good enough. They read one or two lines out of a badly-written novel and say it's solid canon and that anyone who disagrees is just a butthurt fag because "chaos is so good xD".

They know it makes people mad, so they do it.

It's also why when Slaanesh got bitchslapped in AoS in a rare post-Storm of Chaos showing of Chaos being inept and defeatable Chaosfags whined and cried about how it was so unrealistic that Slaanesh got beaten.

They're not all bad, but many are circlejerking trolls whose only knowledge of WHF is Age of Sigmar and possibly the End Times, and/or whose only knowledge of WH40k is from Dawn of War II.

The reason anyone gets actually "butthurt" over it is in the case of telling them "fuck off retard" and the Chaosfag laughing because they "were only pretending". It's annoying, and even more annoying is that GW actively caters to Chaosfags, made Chaos into a bunch of unstoppable skublords, destroyed an entire franchise's canon, codexes, lore, and tabletop scene, and continues to gloat about it no matter how many fans they've lost. All because of fucking Chaos.

I'd say any of us who've known Warhammer lore before 2013 probably have a right to be butthurt that GW thought no one liked any faction except Chaos.

>>53567005
For the record, there are even some bonafide Chaosfags who hate Endtimes and Age of Sigmar.

Chaosfags hate Chaosfags.

>>53567005
>Chaosfags hang on a single prophecy in oldlore

It was more than one prophecy. It was consistent that Chaos was going to win.
I and many others told you so, and it turned out we were right. Who would have thunk it? The people who had actually read the fluff!

>>53560454

I'm guessing the Chaos gods were simply more popular and maybe they thought it fit the tone of both settings better that the Chaos gods incorporate both good and bad emotions and concepts and theoretically embrace the latter more because mortals do the same. Additionally or alternatively it could be viewed as fitting that positive emotions and concepts are used as a means of enslavement.

The Imperium, Eldar, Necron, and Tau all arguably stand in for order in 40k, however they're all bad in their own ways instead of embracing what the drawbacks of order are usually seen as.

AoS has a faction called order with a bunch of gods in it, but there are only inklings of how they can be negative.

>>53560791

The other gods being facets where the Chaos gods overlap is part of what makes the cosmology in Fantasy interesting though.

>>53566075

Problem is that you're looking for something outside of Warhammer or for the Chaos gods to fundamentally change. I can never recall them ever being hinted as actually having multiple different aspects, that is merely how mortals can perceive them.

Khorne is a great example where the Slaves to Darkness book blatantly states he only cares about killing. It is mortals who believe that the Chaos gods are really like this or really like that. It is the cruel irony that a worshiper of Khorne who clings to ideals such as honor will gradually cast all such notions aside in favor of just shedding blood.

>>53567081
>I and many others told you so

Nah, your samefagging is pretty obvious, just like your bait

>>53567102
>Nah, your samefagging is pretty obvious

My samefagging across countless threads stretching back to long before the End Times?
I warned you, others warned you, even the Be'lakor shitposter warned you.

>>53566024
>Arianka, I wish they'd expanded on too. We know that Tzeentch was afraid of her

That's actually french fanfiction made up for an unofficial WHFRP player's guide.

>>53567095
>the Chaos gods incorporate both good and bad emotions and concepts and theoretically embrace the latter more because mortals do the same.

Ironically in 40k the Chaos Gods were created by mortals (men and later Eldar) in the first place, rather than just showing up when the Old Ones left like in WF.

>>53567102

/wfrp/ fag here - Chaos winning was something that's been painted in as early as 1ed of the RPG.

I'm not sure why people get their knickers in a twist about it. The idea that the setting would inevitably fall to Chaos was part of what gave it it's charm - the idea of fighting the good fight, even if you knew it wouldn't count for much in the end. It's been something I've felt was intrinsic to the Warhammer flavour for years - shit is bad, and you better duck because another load is past due.

Chaos never made any sense and never will. Otherwise it wouldn't be CHAOS.

That is all.

>>53567340
Chaos winning was the inevitability, but whether or not it'd be order or ruin was what was up for debate.

All the forces of order were empowered by the Gods of Law just like all the forces of Chaos were empowered by the Gods of Ruin/Ruinous Powers/whatever. Supposedly even gods of both sides like Sigmar, Ulric, Gork, etc were empowered by the Order/Ruin gods as well, but that's debatable.

The victory of either Solkan & Friends or Slaanesh & Harem was said in 1e to be an inevitability, though this was changed some long before the End Times and even before the Storm of Chaos to say that their victory over the Warhammer world was inevitable unless the Old Ones came back, or that certain gods banded together and fought.

Either way, if the Ruin Gods won the world would be destroyed and inadvertently they'd lose all of their followers and be sent back into the Warp to live an eternal life of powerless suffering amidst the uncaring and mindless forces inhabiting it.

If the Order Gods won the Warp would be sealed and all life in the world would cease to progress, change, or shift in any way. The world would become clinically dead and inadvertently they would end up killing everything.

Both the Chaos Gods and Order Gods came out of the Warp, both seek to control the world for their own malevolent/benevolent/ambiguous purposes, and both will ultimately lose, no matter who wins.

This was Moorcock, this was Oldhammer, this was good lore.

>>53567471
>whether or not it'd be order or ruin was what was up for debate.

Nope. The Gods of Law were weaker. And would eventually succumb.

>>53567471
>This was Moorcock, this was Oldhammer, this was good lore.

Truth. But to be fair, I don't mind having a plethora of potential lore to pick and choose from. I'd rather have a shit load of conflicting lore with the assumption of 'Nothing is set in stone, go with what works for you' over one convoluted story line that lead to arguments and over analysing.

>>53567507
Weaker in that entropy is more natural than order.

Much more unified than the Ruin gods, and history shows weaker unified forces can overcome stronger disorganized forces.

>>53567548
>Weaker in that entropy is more natural than order.

No, they were just weaker spirits from the Realm of Chaos that gained form in the mortal world when they arrived there.
The Gods of Chaos were simply more powerful entities.

>>53567548
>story shows weaker unified forces can overcome stronger disorganized forces

Fuck, adding onto my own point this is even shown in Warhammer itself, average people overcoming titanic odds and winning.

>>53567578
I really need to stop replying to you.

>>53567587
Right, but still fated to lose.

Because gods of order are boring.

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>>53564218
>>53564169
>>53565870
For the last time, Solkan DOES NOT EXIST. He is a lie.

>>53567598
You mean lost the argument. Not him but you are a total bitch.

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>>53560454
>but no Law gods?

If you mean by law as in order, then there are the C'tan Gods who represent the natural order of reality and are fundamental elements of weave that keeps actuality together to the point that destroying or dispersing the essence of a C'tan causes reality to unravel into a hole of non-existence.

>>53567323
Both settings are connected by the same Warp, you dweep.

WHFB Hordes of Chaos (6th ED) outright says the Chaos Gods were created by humanity and that all gods in the Realm of Chaos have their origins stem from the Chaos Gods.

>>53567733

And GW also says that the Fantasy world was destroyed and Archaon became a god.

Sometimes when a game dev says something so unbelievably retarded (40K AND FANTASY R CUNNECTED GUYZ XD) you need to ignore it and accept only that it sucks.

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>But the victory of Chaos, although certain
>the victory of Chaos
>certain

1986
nineteen fucking eighty-six.
That's when this particular piece was published, and it never went away in the following years.
People who were outraged or caught unawares when Chaos won were not real fans of the setting.

>>53567768
You can ignore whatever you like but old AND new lore point to the fact that both setting are connected via the Warp.

GW never made any fluff or made any statements that says otherwise.

>>53567768
>something so unbelievably retarded (40K AND FANTASY R CUNNECTED GUYZ XD)

How is that retarded?

>>53567792
They were outraged because Tzeentch, Slaanesh, Nurgle, and Khorne won unstoppably, not because Chaos won.

The Gods of Order were Chaos gods as well, albeit more benevolent.

They also got pissed because the Ruin Gods lived on, even though they should've imploded along with the entire world.

Score 1 for the fucking retarded "chainswords in fantasy" shared universe non-idea.

>>53567814
>The Gods of Order were Chaos gods as well

Nope, they were among the Lawful and non-Chaotic void creatures mentioned.

>They also got pissed because the Ruin Gods lived on, even though they should've imploded along with the entire world.

Read what I just posted. The Gods of Chaos won't implode, they'll still be around to thrust forms upon beings.

>>53567768
>Archaon became a god.

Demigod. Archaon became a demigod, not a god. Big difference.

>>53567852
Except that got changed later, and it was eventually retconned into a prophecy that Archaon found rather than the truth.

Remember that 1st ed of WFRP came out in a very basic time in the flufflife. A lot of things weren't developed or expanded on yet. A lot of things later got added, changed, or removed, but kept within Fantasy structures, up until the end of the Storm of Chaos.

It also later talks in the same book about what a Chaos God of Law victory would look like. Seems weird they'd throw that in if a Chaos victory was inevitable, no?

Especially when the lore of the Old Ones was expanded, the passage you quote became nothing more than a dooming prophecy rather than the infallible truth.

Take everything 1st ed says with a grain of salt.

>>53567879
>Except that got changed later, and it was eventually retconned into a prophecy that Archaon found rather than the truth.

Wrong.
You are a total faggot. Last time you got caught in a lie and you still repeat it.

The prophecy in Darkness Rising takes a single line from the 1st ed text and that's it. The part about Chaos victory being certain it doesn't copt not a single part of it.

What an ass.

>>53567930
Let's pretend for a second that you aren't wrong.

Why are you so in favor of a total Chaos victory?

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>>53567930
And here it is.

Now compare this and with that >>53567792

>>53567879
>Except that got changed later

No it didn't.

>it was eventually retconned into a prophecy that Archaon found rather than the truth.

No, Archaon found a prophecy that was worded similar too, but not exactly like the fluff at the beginning of the Realm of Chaos armybook.

>Seems weird they'd throw that in if a Chaos victory was inevitable, no?

Not at all, it just demonstrates that the Law Gods were not all good. Hypothetical scenarios don't have to be possible to be imagined either.

>Take everything 1st ed says with a grain of salt.

How about you just accept that you were wrong? How about you admit that what you term as "Chaosfags" simply knew the fluff better than you did.

>>53567941
I am in favour of the truth without bias. I despise liars and posers. Especially repeat offenders.

>>53567941
>Why are you so in favor of a total Chaos victory?

Not him, but because that's the fluff. You may as well ask:

>Why are you in favor of Dwarfs having beards?
>Why are you in favor of Sigmar having a hammer?
>Why are you in favor of Skaven being treacherous?

>>53567945
>>53567965
>>53567990
It's not the fluff. It was changed.

And don't say "not him" when you're samefagging like hell. It's not like I've not done the same thing. Sometimes.

The only people who keep following the nonphecy from 1sted don't know the lore changed.

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120KB, 1568x846px

>>53568013
>It's not the fluff. It was changed.

It wasn't. The victory of Chaos was a consistent theme ever since 1st.

>t's not like I've not done the same thing. Sometimes.
>don't know the lore

Don't project.

>>53568013
>It's not the fluff. It was changed.

So you say, but you can provide no proof.

>And don't say "not him" when you're samefagging like hell.

We're not, there's at least one other person and I.

>The only people who keep following the nonphecy from 1sted don't know the lore changed.

When and where did it change, exactly?
Even presuming you are correct, doesn't it make you a hypocrite? You dislike End Times for "changing" lore, but support your supposed change of the lore.

>>53568041
>It wasn't. The victory of Chaos was a consistent theme ever since 1st.

Of either the Chaos Gods of Ruin or Chaos Gods of Law.

Look, this shit has been skubtastic since day one, and clearly neither of us are ever going to balk.

I'm a fag for Antichaos. You're a fag for Chaos. We're both fags.

Whether older lore is true or it got changed or didn't or if it's all prophecy or all true or what doesn't matter, because no matter what neither of us will ever change our minds.

We're sitting here talking to mutual walls of faggotry. There's no purpose to it at all.

You're not samefagging, sure, neither have I been, even if we've done it before. You win there.

What no one wins at is this argument that people have been repeating since the 80s and that no answer will ever come to, unless you want to follow the shit nu-lore of End Times and Shitmar.

If you want to, cool, that's on you, but as far as this shit goes neither of us are making any kind of progress.

>>53568079
>Of either the Chaos Gods of Ruin or Chaos Gods of Law.

No, the gods of Chaos were the only ones said to be eventually victorious.

>What no one wins

Except the side that has facts.

>>53568079
>the Chaos Gods of Ruin or Chaos Gods of Law.

You're making this up.
The Chaos Gods were the Chaos Gods.
The Law Gods were the Law Gods.

The Law Gods had their origin in Chaos, since law is only one permutation of Chaos, but were not considered to be Chaos Gods.

The Lawful entities were destined to lose see >>53567792

>I'm a fag for Antichaos. You're a fag for Chaos. We're both fags.

You're just wrong, and frankly this attempt to "call it a draw" is sad and pathetic.

You've been soundly beaten and should take this as an opportunity to learn rather than run away with your tail between your legs, clutching your ill founded notions to your chest.

>>53568116
>>53568142
If that's what you want to believe. I'll also believe what I want to believe.

One thing that was also changed, but according to your logic is fact, is that the Gods of Chaos/Ruin were only aspects of a single "He Who Must Not Be Named" individual that controlled the Warp and warred with the Old Ones. The idea of the Ruin Gods winning when they're not even true gods is odd.

I'd also recommend checking out Rolston's supplements for the RPG line of Fantasy. He fleshes out the Law Gods and provides more insight on their origins and their equivocal power to the Ruin Gods, as well as their mutual origins in Chaos.

Again, believe what you want to believe.

>>53565777
Where does it hint this?
Emperor has been in the life support throne eating psyker souls to stay alive since Horus fucked his day up, he isn't getting any stronger.

>>53567323

That's true, it strengthens the theory that the Chaos gods are just chickens coming home to roost.

>>53568298
>If that's what you want to believe. I'll also believe what I want to believe.

You have no evidence though, just a misunderstanding of Moorcock at best.

>One thing that was also changed, but according to your logic is fact, is that the Gods of Chaos/Ruin were only aspects of a single "He Who Must Not Be Named" individual that controlled the Warp and warred with the Old Ones.

How is that a fact according to our logic?

>I'd also recommend checking out Rolston's supplements for the RPG line of Fantasy. He fleshes out the Law Gods and provides more insight on their origins and their equivocal power to the Ruin Gods, as well as their mutual origins in Chaos.

Provide me a citation then.