Witches

>>53484384
Were you the guy who posted the Lesbian Witches thread ten minutes ago? If so, this is a commendable second effort.

>>53484384
these days witches are more associated with their garb and items than being evil

in a high fantasy setting, where magic is common, than either witch is a fashion craze and people mistrust them the same way we mistrust scene kids or witch magic is follows a very different set of rules from the standard practice causing normal people to view them as an "other"

in either case, its not being magical per se, but their ways are not your ways
this downplays their evil, it could be a stereotype set by a few high profile case, while still giving them an excuse to live in huts at the edge of town

or you can go full anime and have a dozeb witches in town and nobody cares or stares, that is also fine with me

also, post more cute witches

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>>53484421

Nah, not him, but that reminded me of it and got me to thinking about it some more. It's such a common archetype, and yet the majority of versions of it you see gloss over or lose what are key parts of it, and a lot of the time people don't seem to notice. It's kind of a shame.

>>53484384
Imagine that in the actual real culture you live in right now, a tiny handful of people at the margins were capable of magic. They can replay slights with curses and illness, maybe. That's the fantasy of a witch. That people who don't matter to the larger culture they're a part of can somehow exert a secret sort of power, and so they actually do and should matter. It's literally the opposite of transgresive. It accepts the ideology of power first, and then imagines a scenario where there is secret power that needs respect. Transgression is attacking the underpinning ideas of a thing. Not just mirroring them back with some slight changes.

>>53484384
If your magic is natural you're a mage, shaman or cleric. And you may be good or evil.
If your magic is brewed, manufactured or stolen from magic creatures, you're a witch, warlock, alchemist or necromancer and you're evil.

>>53484384
The Witcher setting proves it can completely be done both ways; there's plenty of (well, relatively speaking) "magical science" style spellcasters of the D&D Wizard class sort, but there's also spooky old women that cast curses and do weird nonsensical folk magic that still somehow works.
It's not about the idea of placing them in trpg's or even the setting or world; it's about execution of the idea and grasping the narrative theme of the creepy lady who lives in the woods and casts bizarre curses and divines hidden truths and crap like that.

If you mean actually IN D&D (which nearly 90% of threads like this mean), then the execution really is entirely up to the GM and the GM alone, as the rules themselves only support the extremely restrictive Vancian casting system.
I've several times used the "creepy old woods witch" theme in my D&D games, and my most consistent players have said that the witch (a recurring character) is easily their favorite NPC I've done and that their first encounter with her genuinely creeped them out.

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>>53484472

Well, it's less about good and evil and more about their position relative to cultural norms.

Even in stories with 'real' witches, in opposition to christian cultural values etc, they often are still valued by communities, for providing necessities outside of those values, advice or treatments or spells which are taboo but are still useful enough that people are willing to break from their usual values to seek them out.

It's a rather interesting niche, to be excluded publicly yet secretly treasured, and it's not really explored outside of those contexts very much. I suppose Terry Pratchett's Witches books somewhat count, but they're generally on the softer end.

>>53484576
>It's a rather interesting niche, to be excluded publicly yet secretly treasured, and it's not really explored outside of those contexts very much. I suppose Terry Pratchett's Witches books somewhat count, but they're generally on the softer end.

That's mostly up to the GM then.
Not many standard D&D settings have it in the game as a rule, but that doesn't make it impossible to do, it just means that it's up to the GM to put it in the setting if he or she wants it.

>>53484540

That feels like a very American view of Witches, but it makes sense. They do have a very different cultural place between Europe and the US.

In Europe, they were almost an open secret. Even in days when Christianity was generally openly accepted, the wise women of the forests and the old Gods they represented were still respected and honoured, and they had a strange, unofficial place of reverence and revulsion within the societies of the day.

What we most remember are the witch trials and burnings, of course, but for centuries before that these pagan remnants had coexisted within Christian societies, and it took a large scale and ongoing effort to turn the public perception against them to the point of a lot of the modern day superstitions.

The Dark Souls games have it where witches are self-taught or reliant on their mothers to teach them magic, so they're ostracized by the clergy who practice miracles passed down by the gods and by scholarly sorcerers who study god-approved magic created by the ally of the gods, the white dragon Seath. The air of mistrust comes from their magic not following the same orderly rules and doctrine as proper, learned mages.

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>weebshit witches
gay

>>53484384
the way me and my friends keep their levels of hate twords witches in our worlds is that their unique form of magic, Curses, powers itself on souls. Where the soul comes from is often times inconsequential to the witch, the only time the witch cares if its a goodly one. When someone contracts a dark witch the payment they make, knowingly or unknowingly, is their own soul, that the witch will take when she needs or wants it. One soul can fuel a witches magic and pseudo immortality for decades. But typically they are never satisfied with only one soul every 15-20 years.

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>>53484717
>respected and honoured
uhm, I think even the Edda says never to stop for them or show them kindness
witches don't stand for old gods, they stand for evil spirits from beyond the enclosure
Sometimes you might have a mythology that fears witches and prescribes politeness in fear of retribution but overall they're just hated and avoided

>>53484384
Just make them worship the dark gods or something. If the majority of your setting is tolerant of evil worship, witches are just another form of wizard.

>>53487426
But it's very likely that Christianity demonized all opposing religions even where they were just opposing religions, not some Satanic force. You see it even in the word demonized. At the same time pre-Christian societies also ostracized witches, as you say - the problem is witchery gets caught up alongside the accepted religion practices of those societies now too.

That said, I don't really see being isolated by a major other religion such as Christianity as an essential part of the witch. You look at like the Navajo witches and they also transgress, just in different ways (against common social mores/practices). The transgressive element can come about in a variety of ways, and it often is where their power comes from (even social power). They don't play by the same rules.

>>53487497
I think it's useful to differentiate between a witch, which is part of the outside and the unknown, and something like a witch doctor, a shaman that is part of the tribe and connected to higher forces

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wizards > witches

I don't think Christianity has that much to do with it honestly. People who acquire power that is not answerable to the rest of society are automatically transgressive, even without a jealous clergy.

>>53487559
That is the smuggest wizard I have ever seen

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>>53484384

>implying it isn't all really about sexy women with big floppy hats tempting men.

Witch can be a term of respect.

In response to the long discussion chain here, I suspect it has something to do with the fact that witches possess and work with powers outside the existent structure. If I was a liberal arts major I would point out that witchcraft was a major form of feminist power in male dominated societies and that this might have something to do with their demonizing in certain cultures. Certainly the edda talking shit about witches is hypocritical since it was witchcraft Odin sold his eye and hung himself for, Loki used to mock him because sedr was a woman's art

In the context of fantasy realm where magic and egalitarianism are non issues, I suspect the suspicion of witches comes from the fact their powers cannot be easily defined. Their abilities are not divine and do not come from any God, but also defy the stucture of traditional arcane magic. Furthermore the fact that a witches powers often skirt the boundaries of necromancy (being in fact more traditional necromancy than what we think of as necromancy) single them out for suspicion. There's also the fact their powers are similar to but distinct from a warlock, or a druid.

Witches are beholden to no one but themselves and good sense. They have no patron, and though they may worship a god they derive no powers from them. So too.with nature and.its spirits. Instead a witch barters, cajoles, and convinces spirits to lend her powers on a case by case basis. This is distinct from druids who worship and pray to nature, warlocks who have a pact with a powerful figure, or sorcerers who derive their magic internally. If anything, it's a form of hedge hermeticism, a less reliable and.more countrified form of wizardry, capable.of different things.

>>53487912
>witches is hypocritical since it was witchcraft Odin sold his eye and hung himself for
witch =/= any kind of magic user
those whitches the Edda mentions? troll-ladies
a witch is very specifically a hag that consorts with evil spirits and wants to harm you
it's only in recent times that it got taken as some sort of feminist symbol and romanticized by the wiccans, because, you know, degenerate modern westerners, it's what we do

>>53487960
>only in recent times
m8 I've read transcripts of 26 century witch trials from Scotland and Germany. It wasn't all hags.

Please take your muh Western degeneracy to another board, or preferably wherever you picked it up offsite.

>>53487982
>26
obviously 16

>>53487589
The original stance of the church was that there were no such thing as witches. Belief in witches worked its way up the clergy from the barely converted peasantry. Negative connotations to witchcraft predate Christianity, despite what bullcrap wiccans will try and tell you about pagan feminist earth goddesses empowered by their mystical vulvas in the pre-christian utopia .

>>53487982
And what you got from those transcripts was that they were feminist icons? please

>>53487912
Cont

So among magic workers you have the dichtomy of the borrowers and the meddlers. Arcane casters exploit the rules of the universe are meddlers, they use an ambient power from the world around them or within them. Wizards, sorcerers, etc. They get by bending the fundamental rules.

Then you have the borrowers, the divine casters. Clerics, Druids and so forth worship higher powers and are lent a fragment of that power to do their work. It's about furthering the agenda of their patron. Warlocks fit in under this too, even though their patrons are not traditionally divine.

Witches BORROW, but aren't beholden to the spirits they bargain with. They get case by case favors from little powers, little spirits. They apply their abilities in a hermetic manner, using trial and error and practicality like a wizard. Their art is a melange of all others, but at the same time distinct. This combined with a tendency towards secrecy makes them suspect to others.

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Post witch butts.

>>53487982
I've read 26th century manuscripts and I can't believe you primitive beings haven't figured out FTL yet

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>>53487912
>>53488031
And why all this when you could just as easily make them warlocks?
In fact, isn't the archetypical witch what the archfey contract in D&D was invented for?

>>53488014
No, what I got was what I said: that your hag definition is wrong. If any thing that being all a witch is is the more modern idea, all Hollywood and Oz. The other anon is right about seidr too.

>>53488054
Because anon's definition is distinct from warlocks as described in his post? Because he wants more witch theme than warlock theme?

>>53488056
All I'm saying is that witches were always evil outsiders. It's not christianity that introduced that at all.
It's defnitely wrong to say they're in any way connected to feminism.

>>53487559
What makes wizards so much better than witches, huh?

>>53488073
It's not more witchy to have them be unbeholden borrowers. I get that that it's a deliberate distantiation from regular warlocks, I just don't think it's necessary as there are already plenty of ways to give them witchy theming.

>>53488104
Probably because they better represent magic and the power it entails.

Food for thoughts: most account of witchcraft and witch hunt were sparkled by women, often young, who used accusation of witchcraft to shake the social order of the village, often to their own interest.

By example, Salem's witch hunt began when two young women had convulsion and started to say that they were 'bewitched' by an evil witch.

>>53487497
>The transgressive element can come about in a variety of ways, and it often is where their power comes from (even social power). They don't play by the same rules.
tfw you realize wearing socks, sandals and sweatpants makes you a witch

>>53488054

If you're thinking about witches in terms of contracts, you're doing it wrong. Unless you're talking about someone else making a contract with the witch in which the witch is taking advantage of them.

Witchcraft is a gnostic thing: its supposed to be mysterious, inscrutable and impenetrable to those outside of the circle of knowledge, even to those who are learned. The knowledge they have is beyond the things that people outside them can comprehend, and this should apply even to those who have unlocked the mysteries of the arcane and dealt with gods and demons. The thing that make witches unique is that they know something you don't know, regardless of how amazing and beyond the realm of mere mortals the shit you know is. Even those who make pacts with the eldritch deities of the great void and have passed beyond the realms of sanity to learn the great truths of the Old One's embrace don't know the shit that Witches know.

This also ties into the nature of witch powers. Witch magic is weird, both in the modern sense and the Shakespearean sense. Even if you know every god damn thing in the Grand Magical Library, you don't know how a Witch's Cauldron does shit that take elaborate enchantments in other objects, or why Witch Curses don't follow the sames rules similar debuff spells do, or why a White Haired Witch uses fucking hair for her weird Kung Fu spells.

When a Witch uses fire she's not casting a fireball, she's invoking the primal fear and wonder that your reptile brain has passed down since the world began. A man may know how to make fire, how to use fire, he may have bound elementals to his service or be on a first name basis with the Fire God. But a witch knows Fire, the primordial concept, on a level even a God can't. All its secrets, all its lost names, all its hidden desires, all the things that ever made a thing with feelings feel when they watched it burn, Mortal or otherwise.

What is a Witch? Six words: "I know something you don't know."

>>53488274
From which fictional setting are you basing all of this on?

>>53488295

Start with Macbeth and go forward from there. Gnostic knowledge that can't be comprehended by non-witches and primordial elements that draw upon folklore and emotions in their spellcraft are always elements of true "witches."

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>>53484384
Why does that witch have no high heels?

>>53488274
>>53488339
I picture wizards, sages and esoteric scholars more so than witches when I think of Gnostic knowledge, to be quite frank.

>>53488390

If you're thinking of a Gandalf style low-magic wizard you have a point, but in a low magic setting a wizard and a witch are virtually indistinguishable. Sages and Scholars, no matter how esoteric, study knowledge anyone can learn and exist to impart it onto others. Witches don't impart knowledge, at least not knowledge that's helpful to anyone but themselves. The can provide services, they can provide prophecies, but those are the fruits of their knowledge, not the knowledge itself. Unless they're specifically initiating an apprentice witch they don't share what they know. That's Gnosticism.

>>53488054
I'm not thinking of a specific setting but rather the way witches have been viewed in our world. There are two ways, and the warlock with their pact to a higher being is one way. But that's a distinctly American view of witches seen through a western Christian lense. In the east and the classical era, it was much more about communing with spirits

>>53488041
Do 26th century witches still have big floppy hats?

This is important.

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>>53484384
Witches are folk magicians.

Wizards learn the classical spells and rituals in rigidly-structured schools. Alchemists write coded books and trade carefully-guarded secrets. Sorcerers channel magic instinctively using innate power and intense practice. Druids focus the power of nature and her spirits. Clerics petition the gods. Warlocks bargain with demons.

Witches do a bit of everything. They learn only the useful spells, skipping over the theory lessons and boring lectures. They steal the secrets of alchemy and sometimes even give those secrets away. Some dabble in innate magic, but they don't have the dedication to pursue it. They take the power of nature and twist it for their own uses. They bastardize prayers and tempt the gods. They play tricks on demons and have no respect for the infernal bureaucracy.

But worse than that, the mix all kinds of magic in unnatural and dangerous ways. They mix spells and prayers to create strange healing rituals. They use the power of nature spirits to taint their strange brews.

It should by now be obvious why witches are so widely hated by magic practitioners of all types. Wizards have a disgust, yet also a curiosity towards witches. Alchemists and clerics have only pure hatred. Sorcerers are too elitist to even notice witches. Druids and warlocks are distrustful, but will occasionally ally with witches when they share a common enemy (especially if that enemy is a wizard).

Most witches don't even realize the oddness of their practice. Some have bits of formal training, but most witches learn from other witches, and all witches eventually create their own ways of doing things. They cast spells without knowing what the words mean, they speak prayers without knowing whom they pray to.

Witches are pragmatic above all else: they use what works and discard what does not. Witches often take a strange pride in solving problems without magic. Wizards learn flame spells, while witches simply carry a flint and steel.

>>53488492
Yes but they have slots for their genetically modified cat ears

>>53488492
This could be a major point of division among schools of witchcraft thought. Some believe that floppy hats are good, while others abhor them.

>>53488003
>The original stance of the church was that there were no such thing as witches
In Big Charlie's empire, accusing someone of being a witch carried the death sentence. That's right, the accuser was in more danger than the accused. The rise of Protestantism changed this (which is why the hotbeds of witch persecution were Switzerland, Scotland and the Thirteen Colonies). Some Spanish priest did write some handbook on witchhunting, but it was put on the Catholic Church's list of banned book almost instantly after being published.

tl;dr: Pr*ddies

>>53484384
I'm unfamiliar with the element of witch-lore that causes them all to dress like strippers. Is that part of the knowledge-contract with higher powers?

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>>53488502
>Witches are pragmatic above all else: they use what works and discard what does not. Witches often take a strange pride in solving problems without magic. Wizards learn flame spells, while witches simply carry a flint and steel.

This is good. Capped for posterity. It also gives witches a generalist role as casters. Not a pure support, and at least somewhat capable of dealing direct damage.

>>53488491
You're confusing a witch with a shaman

>>53488583
You're confusing shamans with witches

>>53488583
>>53488603
what if they're the same thing, but viewed through different cultural perspectives?

>>53487541
The shaman is given the secrets, the witch steals them.
That's a good start.
You go to a shaman for what you need, you go to a witch for what you want and deep down know you don't desserve.

>>53488749
>>53488723
Frankly o think shamans and witches are the same thing. Witch is just a Western word for it

Mind you in countries like Africa witch has a whole different connotation that is wholly negative

>>53488771
Except african and african-derived traditions also distinguish between the magic user who begs gods to intercede for people and the magic user who steals nature's secrets for personal gain and evildoing.

>>53488547

I mean artists these days will draw anything slutty. However it sorta does fit with the medieval witch theme as they were considered to both flout the societal notions of chastity and screw demons in exchange for power. Just search Witches Sabbath and you will get plenty of nsfw classical paintings and woodcuts.

>>53484384
Mage Guild.
Magic serves the Crown and every magic user that wants to earn coin with it must be a part of the Guild or face the consequences. Consequences normally being a pair of very unpleasant looking wizards supported by a cleric and a couple of soldiers knocking on your door to ask a couple of pointed questions.

Guild also manages Crown grants and permissions to do research in dangerous magic. You can't say study even theoretical Necromancy without a lot of paperwork and an inspector that would visit you at least once a month at random dates.

You of course also must pay a tenth of your earnings to the Guild coffers. Trying to hide your earnings will result in the same pair of unpleasant wizards paying you a night visit to break your hands.

>>53488811
Well that and witches are literally blood sucking monsters who have to be killed in a special way by experienced hunters

>>53488870
This. Witches represent a sexual threat, being a spiritual corruption of the purity of womanhood

>>53487559
Read ''Equal Rites'' by good old man Terry.

>>53488502
>>53488274
I really like both of these and I think they're combinable: witches progress towards a secret knowledge of the world which can only be understood individually, by whatever method works. It allows for a wide variety of practices while not being organized academically or like a church, and it doesn't make them 'lesser' as casters (which I think is important for people at the table).

Y'all need to read on those Eastern Poland and Ukraine weird witch-shamanic figures. "Szeptucha" (umm... The Whisperess? The Whispering One?) is not a common thingy, but even nowadays there are some old women in more obscure regions of Central and Eastern Europe who perform healing rituals, cleansings and such. They usually do a mix of Christian (most commonly of Eastern-Orthodox Old Faith variety), spiritual, ritualistic and ancestral magic. Also, they are not only NOT frowned upon, but commonly in tight cooperation or at least in neutral relations with local priests.

>>53488964
if you're going to be using Discworld as a setting then wizards are downright more powerful than witches.

Well, not modern wizards. They're fat and lazy. The current witches are actually competent.

>>53484717
>What we most remember are the witch trials and burnings, of course, but for centuries before that these pagan remnants had coexisted within Christian societies, and it took a large scale and ongoing effort to turn the public perception against them to the point of a lot of the modern day superstitions.

Even pagan societies cocked an eye at magic. Witches were never trusted and any dealings with them were regarded as folly or cursed in some way.
It didn't take much to convince christian populations to conflate witchcraft with devil worship. The difference is the catholics officially regarded witchcraft as ridiculous superstitions while the protestants took the malleus maleficarum seriously.

Make the witch do something sketchy but not outright illegal. Maybe they use necromancy to put spirits to rest. Maybe she uses necromancy to heal damaged bodies. Its for a good cause, and really, she's causing no harm to anyone, but its still necromantic magic. And the mages guild doesn't approve.

In a high fantasy setting, magic is commonplace. As a result, there are usually standards to it. But say these standards are only enforced in the capital and other major cities. A witch would basically be a black market mage that's somewhat sketchy. You hire a witch when she's all you can afford. Or if the mages guild can't be fucked removing your rat infestation curse. A private investigator to the police, if you will.

You can also have backwater villages treat magic with suspicion. Being far from the capital, all they know of magic is that rouge mages sling it around to get what they want and cause trouble for people. The local witch would be mysterious because none of them have an education on what magic is, and mistrusted because for all they know, when the witch came into town to cure a sick child, she was actually stealing his soul.

>>53489256

While I don't think you're entirely wrong, the example in >>53489098 shows it's not always the case.

The Witch as a necessary outsider, respected at a distance, is a side of Witchcraft I grew up with in the folk stories I was told, but it's a aide that isn't make the transition to America, from how they're often presented.

>>53484494
That witch could ride my broomstick any time she liked.

>>53487559
Yo man not to be interrupting what you've got going on there but uh, your robe is on fire.

>>53489902
Fair point.

>>53489902

>but it's a side that didn't make the transition to America

Fuck. Phoneposting sucks, doubly so when you're not properly conscious.

>>53484421
>Lesbian Witches thread

link, please?
Can't find it in the Archives ...

>>53489098
>Szeptucha
Thats a word I havent heard in quite some time.

>weird witch-shamanic figures.
>They usually do a mix of Christian (most commonly of Eastern-Orthodox Old Faith variety), spiritual, ritualistic and ancestral magic.

The thing is, the way my great-grandmother explained it to me Szeptuna are more akin to female clerics than Witches. In fact Szeptuna are absolutely opposed to witches, warlocks etc whose power comes from darkness and the devil while their own powers come from god or one of the Christian saints.

She also told me it wasnt uncommon for them to work together with local priests in order to remove curses or the influence of witches from people and places in villages before the War.

>>53491196

Well, keep in mind that the idea of witches as satanic was something introduced by Christianity anyway. It's likely that both groups descended from the same traditions, but one managed to successfully integrate with the new dominant culture while the other remained estranged.

If you're too civilized for a shaman but not civilized enough for a priest, you go see the witch

>>53491228
There were legends of evil witches in Ancient Greece.

>>53491380
I love Circe.

"I was going to ensorcel and kill this man, but he resisted one spell so I think I'll try to fuck him to death instead."

But, really, I don't remember reading enough detail to get her motives. Don't know how her magic works--if it's a thing where once you resist you're invulnerable to it, or if she assumes Odysseus can't be charmed at all and doesn't know he had help, or if she's bored and lonely and finally found a worthwhile partner, or what.

There just isn't enough text to know how to read her, but she's a powerful single woman in a society where women are mostly chattel and you kinda have to assume there's a lot of cultural baggage we're missing to perform a good interpretation

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>>53488502

POST MORE CUTE WITCHES!

>>53491380
They weren't evil, they were chaotic neutral

Reminder that witch covens are full of desperate sisters

>>53492351
>There just isn't enough text to know how to read her, but she's a powerful single woman in a society where women are mostly chattel

Is that the famous western gender studies-College Education kicking in?
Because this is so wrong I don't even know where to begin.

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>>53489902
That's a side that never made it out of eastern europe
diagnosing this as just american is more than a little bit wrong, witches being nothing but pure evil is far more widespread than witches being wise hermits

How to make a witch NPC interesting and scary opponent?

>>53493986

As a Brit, I can say for certain that elements of it still persisted in the UK, and I know of a few legends in France and Germany too. They might have been a bit more comprehensively suppressed, but they still exist in places.

>>53488502
So wizardry is Latin, Alchemy is Greek, Sorcery is German, Divine magic is Saxon, and witchcraft is American English?

Seems legit.

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Witches a cute

>>53494516
It's because of the hat i am sure.

>>53484384
The one witch coven I have in my setting is a groups of, essentially, feminists with a village in the forest. They invite women from the surrounding villages if they see them suffering because of their husbands or something. Most of them don't spend a lot of time in the witches' village (or the forest, 'cause it's dangerous) and keep their membership secret.
The thing is, normal villagers have no concept of what a 'witch' is in that world, so they all immediately think of that one feminist group that does outdoor activities and tea parties and sometimes studies magic, I guess. Though the founder is an old maiden and possibly a learned wizard, they mostly do woman-stuff.
Learning your wife is part of the witch coven there would be like learning she is part of a weird gothic subculture here (and might not really appreciate you as much as you thought).

To the players, they are a benevolent entity as a whole, with unusual and practical spells to learn and taking good care of wounds and sicknesses. Also the only people on Earth taking a female spellcaster seriously.

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>>53494551
Not every witch is wearing funny pointy hat tho.

Some are wearing those weird horned things.

>>53494700
They all have heels, tho.

>>53494700
Yes but she doesn't look cute, all witches with pointy hats look cute.

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>>53484384
The witch is just and old evil hag, archetype adjusted for an Western perspective. Everything you just said is the most retarded thing I've heard on this board in a while.

>>53495590

It might be a surprise anon, but yours isn't the only perspective that exists, or the only one that matters.

>>53484384
I mean like. This doesn't seem like a tough question. The answer seems pretty obvious that you should only use witches in settings where it's possible for them to play a transgressive role. If that's not possible for whatever reason, there's a bunch of different archetypes that just make more sense. You can have wise women without having them be witches.

But high fantasy/low fantasy is not necessarily relevant to whether or not witches are transgressive. It's trivially easy to think of ways witches can be transgressive in high-fantasy settings. There are basically three different ways for this to happen:

1) Have witches be transgressive for social reasons. Presumably, this is going to involve making them transgressive insofar as they're female, which means that this route is going to be unpopular on /tg/, but theoretically it makes sense.

2) Make witches transgressive with regards to their magic - so basically, witches' method of doing magic is outside the accepted norms and boundaries of magic in the society in some way.

3) Make witches transgressive in terms of knowledge - so that is to say, witches do magic the same as mainstream society does in this setting, but they're aware of some truth or revelation which sets them apart from society. Probably some truth about society or the nature of magic.

And it makes sense if you think about it, because those are the three dominant and central themes around the concept of a witch.

http://www.bogleech.com/halloween/hall15-mascots.html
It used to be that the typical Halloween witch was simply a very old, human woman, but over time, she evolved into something clearly stranger than that, with a pond-scum complexion, elongated facial features and gnarled, knobbly joints. These qualities are by no means new, but hearken more to the oldest portrayals of figures like Baba Yaga and Jenny Greenteeth, mythical "hags" so ancient and so powerful that they're no longer human at all, if they ever truly were to begin with. I'll admit, I used to completely overlook witches as if they were the dullest of the Halloween mascots, but my appreciation for them has really skyrocketed in recent years.

FURTHER POTENTIAL: admittedly, even the gnarliest and weirdest looking Halloween witches are often still passed off as "just really old," sometimes even if they occupy a series where no other human being ever looks that peculiar. It's obvious, though, that breathing in the fumes of all those bubbling, magical brews must just carry a lot of creepy side effects. The green skin comes first. Then you've got the extremities growing a bit faster than the rest of you. Warts come next, and by the time a witch is living far beyond a normal human life expectancy, her body has begun to age in ways the natural human life span doesn't normally permit. Think of witches as "mutated" by their own magic - which they obviously are - and they suddenly seem a whole lot more compelling than just a bunch of very scary grandmas.

>>53491380
Go father, the Native Americans had traditions of horrible witches and they may as well have been on a whole other planet when Christianity was spreading through Europe.

>>53496437

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_fCKnEHNG8

This is a pretty interesting thing on the origin of the current image of witches.

>>53488054
But if witches are warlocks, then who are the warkeys

>>53484551
I've seen all of those be evil before in a setting except for alchemists.

>>53495956
This might come as shock to you, but the current zeitgeist of trying rethink and rebuild upon older concepts instead of creating new ones is kind of pathetic. When you refer to a "witch" you are referring to an evil old hag/ malicious magical being. Witches weren't just went who practiced strange folk rituals , and a lot of the history behind witch burning are more complicated than just village folk screaming "WIIIIIITCH".

It's not that I'm not taking other people's perspectives into account, I'm just telling that they are a shit.

>>53488104
King arthur

>>53496316
You can have witch be the female noun and warlock the male one.

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>>53484384
>ctrl+f beer
>0 results

comon /tg

>>53497822
Nihil novum sub sole, anon. There are no new concepts.

>>53488054
I think witches are a split between warlocks and 3.5's Spirit Shamans.

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>>53484384

Well, nowdays witches are kinda reworked under a wiccan point of view. Kinda. They're the wise woman who is smarter than the rest and maybe a little strange, but in the "best secrets are kept secret to be more awesome" way. It's mostly a feel-good archetype in this sense, they're more mundane magical users or at least more down-to-earth, shit like that. Even when they're sexy, the sinful associations are pretty much cast away.

>yes, I do think mahou shojos have at least a tiny connection to this

I think it's actually a good thing. They don't NEED the fucking spanish inquisition after them to be interesting, and overall fantasy should take more happy-go-lucky archetypes, to contrast the "grimndark makes everything more adult" bullshit.

But I don't think the "transgression" part should be totally cut away either.

How about: witches are good, or at least decent people, but they still are a cult(ish) coven? Basically their freedom is real, but it's something they enjoy, well, being undercover. They can't really be bound by society's norms. They probably could, or at least could try to, but they prefer it this way.

It probably doesnt' sound bad to us, but consider this: in high fantasy the good guys are honest, upfront, even to the point of absurdity. Interestingly, even anti-heroes like Elric or "not really give a fuck" like Conan -who was even a proper thief- don't do that.
It's evil that lurks under the surface.

>it could also explain the dicotomy with wizards: these guys aren't necessarily GOOD, but they're always public

>>53493559
Lets just assume it's a joke and go on about our witches.

>>53493559
>>53500243
>le SJW boogieman

You'd have a point if that anon was talking about, say, 17th century England, but as far as we know (and to be fair, beyond Athens we know very little) the status of women in ancient Greek society was exceptionally marginalized.

Chattel is perhaps too strong a word, but for all intents and purposes a woman in Athens at least was at the mercy of the men in her life. There was no real place for unmarried women in Athenian society, and their ability to act was entirely dependent on their husband, father, or kurios' whims. Different pairs had different relationships, with certain men allowing more or less autonomy (people are human after all; they can become attached to one another, and attachment breeds empathy. You even see this in how landed citizens interacted with their slaves, occasionally), but as a rule women had less right, less freedoms, and were thought of as property.

The only real alternative was the temple, which was not an option for many.

SJWs are shifty with history, but you shouldn't let your kneejerk reaction to the boogiemen govern your opinions.

>>53493559
>>53500673
If 'rape culture's was ever actually a thing and not just the delusion of a victim complex, it was in ancient Greece it was real. Greek myths and God's are exceptional when they DON'T rape. Like this is one of the reasons Hades is considered bro tier - he ONLY kidnapped his wife, and didn't rape her into a cum drenched sobsocket

>>53484384

OP's postmodernist neofeminism jargon threw me, too, but he is raising a good point. "Witch" could just be a word for female magic user. But I do agree that they should be more familiar and accessible to the common folk, and more sinister.

So to me, they're a breed of hedge magician, akin to the travelling carnies and wandering failed apprentices. People who have the Gift, but who for one reason or another were not accepted into a faith as a cleric or a collegium of wizards.

So instead they cobbled together what lore they could find, beg, or discover by experimentation. Or maybe apprentices to someone else who learned that way. So they've a hodgepodge of conventional spells, alchemy, shamanism, ancient religion, empty superstition, and a few nuggets of real and unique power. Perhaps mixed with stuff that an educated wizard would know better than to risk playing with. So the witch is worse than a reckless apprentice: he's powerful enough to be a real danger to himself and his community. A guild wizard would recoil in horror if she saw him at work.

Wizards, sorcerers, etc. They run elbows with the nobility, or at least tradesmen. Witches serve the common folk. They're to the adventuring magic classes what barbarians are to real soldiers.

>>53501533

Well, 'rape culture' is a word that's often misused and misunderstood.

It's less the idea that rape is all over the place and that we, as a culture, have a lot of behaviours which inadvertently make it harder to confront and deal with the issue. The fact that rape is a massively underreported crime and that prosecuting it is a clusterfuck a lot of the time are some of the more obvious sides of it.

>>53501605

>OP's postmodernist neofeminism jargon

wat

>>53500673

I am not even sure there were that many female priests in, say, Pericles' time.

>>53501533

I don't think you should take myths for literal depictions of the times they were mostly talked about. I mean, shit, during the later middle ages people weren't EXACTLY like the Gospels, right?

>yes, I realize they didn't really worship a free loving Jesus, but still you got my point.

That being said, yep, the greeks and the jews were perhaps the most misognistic societies back then.

>>53501605
>>53502249

He's another misogynist shitlord from /r9k/ is what he is. Fuck I hate this cite.

>>53487426
>>53487497
Eddas were written in christian times. They were a fantasy based on an oral tradition of storytelling about the pagan times, but the ones who wrote them down were christians through and through.

>>53488886
>purity of womanhood
No such thing in christian thought buddy.

>>53500673
The problem is everyone insists women were always treated like in Victoria's england or helenic greece. They weren't. Commoner women were irrelevant but not marginalized, noblewomen could do pretty much whatever the fuck they wanted so long as they didn't mess too much with politics. Isabel's spain and Louis XVI's france are both chock full of tales and incidents about women's shenanigans and the misadventures they caused on unsuspecting men because they were respected enough not to be bitchslapped into obedience like feminazis think they were.

>>53502249
different =/= inferior.
You are different and inferior in brain capacity to the rest of anons here. Witches are just different from wizards, and there's both female wizards and male witches.

>>53501605
>they're a breed of hedge magician

Fuck off

>>53502943
Sure.

But don't let your anger over this push you into the opposite direction of wrongness.

No matter how false the idea of 'rape culture' is today and in other periods, it's a fucking fact that the Greeks were misogynistic as fuck and women had a pretty poor lot in the poleis. The only more misogynistic society I can think of off the top of my head is that of Korea during a very particular period of its history.

>>53484384

They all have amazingly gorgeous thighs. So much so that people can't control themselves around witches. Every time they're like "dam girl, let me get some of that" and the witch can't go anywhere without causing traffic jams and shit.

Some of them also have amazing tits. These are called Ur Witches. And they lead covens and have lesbian relations with their leggy sisters.

>>53503110
>anger
You may be way too invested in this argument if you assume everyone who disagrees or even builds up on your point without even disagreeing is angery.
Go take a bath and put that gender studies book in the shelf for a day.

>>53503128
I think the idea was to have a thread about something BESIDES the obvious, pal.

>>53503350
>lel gender studies guise

Nice strawman.

Seriously though, the first few replies to to the other anon's post - the one about Circe that started this - were clearly angry. If they weren't, they were simply misinformed.

And your post here >>53502943
seems to imply that because SJWs are misrepresenting history, it's okay to misrepresent history in the opposite direction, which is like the epitome of a stupid kneejerk reaction. That post didn't build shit all on my point, it just provided a dumb excuse for your lack of knowledge and/or misrepresentation of history.

You don't need a bath, you need to go back to school.

>>53497983
Okay, I'm stumped. What does beer have to do with witches?

>>53503463

See >>53496467

>>53503448
>seems to imply that because SJWs are misrepresenting history, it's okay to misrepresent history in the opposite direction
That's all in your head.
That argument literally says:
>Victorian england and helenic greece were mysoginist societies
>Age of Discovery Spain and House Bourbon France were not mysoginist societies
So, as usual, it depends on the setting.

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>>53503404

Sorry. I think I was bewitched

By those thighs. I mean damn. Its hard to concentrate with that image around. Jesus.

>>53503632
Yeah, sure? But this wasn't being discussed. The only reason you'd ever bring that up is to apologize for earlier statements.

Here's how this went:

>Anon 1
"Blah blah Circe chattel etc."
>Anon 2
"ACKSHUALLY that's not how it was."
>Multiple Other Anons
"Nah nigga, this is one of those instances where that's pretty much how it was."
>Anon 2
"THE PROBLEM is that everyone insists women were etc..."

'The problem' doesn't apply here. Anon 1 didn't say women in every period were treated like they were in Victorian England (which, fyi, was not even that bad, especially among the working classes), they were specifically referring to hellenistic Greece. There was no reason to ever bring this up unless you're excusing your earlier intellectual fumble.

Nobody fucking said shit about anywhere or anywhen else.

Not everything has to be about muh SJW politics.

>>53484384
I don't think I'm going to be able to give you any definitive guide to what a Witch is. In my setting, a word means whatever people use it to mean. However, "Witch" is a word with a strong negative connotation. It implies the use of taboo magic. To use it to refer to any magic-user, male or female, is a strong pejorative.

Those knowledgeable in magic tend to use it to specifically refer to those who use it the "wrong" way, or as a slur against those who are knowingly or unknowingly on the wrong side of a contract. Magic-users who have gained power through being partially possessed by a spirit, how malignant it is varies, in a way that allows that spirit great influence over them. Such a person is treated almost like a disease carrier, as the spirit uses its host to further its own agenda.

Perhaps infecting others, or just feeding on those nearby as it uses its host as an anchor to the material plane. Perhaps it's relatively benign and just wants something more innocent. Whatever the case, other magic-users don't trust them and believe they give proper magic-users a bad name.

But of course, the original point still stands. It can be applied to any practitioner or school of magic you don't like.

>>53503779
You can't expect people to follow your train of thought unless you namefag, most people reply to random posts that draw their attention and the chan format makes following discussions hard even with quotes.

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>>53484384
>historically this was their position of opposition to christian cultural and moral values
Aren't witches people who took part in a perverse ritual that mocked Catholic mass and included the desecration of the Eucharist and possible summoning and fornication with demons?

I'm going to be honest here, I don't know or care. The crime of witchcraft was mostly brought against the medieval equivalent of edgy larpers, but just in case I figured I shouldn't bother learning what exactly goes into a black sabbath.

>>53505200

That's primarily christian propaganda used to suppress and vilify pre-christian mystics and wisewomen.

>>53505336
>That's primarily christian propaganda used to suppress and vilify pre-christian mystics and wisewomen.

This is something a witch would say. I'm not falling for it.

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>>53505373
Can't fight that logic. I think I'll dig up my copy of the Malleus Maleficarum to get in the mood for a good old fashioned hanging.

>>53496467
Why do I kind of feel this video is a whole huge leap in logic to make SJWs happy?

>>53506224

Because you didn't click under the video for the list of reference articles and further reading?

>>53505336
You're pretty much wrong.

>>53505200
Witchcraft has always been about the subversion of the mainstay religion, in all cultures. Going all the way back to the old testament, witches were people who consorted with demons and twisted ceremonies to darker purposes.

I imagine "real life" witches were pretty much like Alester Crowly and Gerald Gardner of their own times, twist a few words around on a common religious practice, focus on secrets and sexuality to entice members to join you, have orgies and be a cult leader in the outskirts of society. The modern day equivalent would range from Charles Manson to Goth Kids at Hot Topic.

>>53506357

Except that's not true, at least not exclusively true, throughout Europe. That's very much the modern, post-vilification view of Witches.

>>53506383
>post-vilification view of Witches.

So modern un-vilification attempts by Wiccans, feminists, and Neo-Pagans?

>>53506300
I mean, wouldn't most people have brooms for sweeping, cauldrons to cook in, cats and dogs to keep pests out the crops, and hats to wear?

Seems far fetched that Monks would form a cabal to keep those poor wimmin down.

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>>53505835
>hanging
It's an auto-de-fé, get it right.

>>53506300
>further reading

From such prestigious scholarly sources as craftbeer.com and gender-focus.com? Please.

One article they quote claims that women saved the world by brewing beer, yet they also claim the practice stopped after the dark ages, would it be fair for me to jump to the claim that a bunch of grain kept by housewifes led to a sudden rise in the plauge carrier rat population from unproper storage of grains and cereals, leading to the direct death of over half of Europe?

Maybe they were witches after all, huh?

>>53506701
>dark ages

Sorry meant Black Death.

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Bunny witches a best

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>>53484717

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>>53486282
>being anti-weeb
>on 4chan

Eat a dick, fag. Your art is pretty good, though.

>>53484717
>Is what my friends tell me, and I am incapable of source criticism.

>>53506478

And yet when Christine O'Donnell ran for public office, her teenage experiments with being a wiccan became a campaign issue. All my friends who had been wiccan in the 90s were busy re-vilifying witchcraft for the purposes of one political campaign in a podunk state. Seems like despite their claims that it's a legit religion, it was never about what they genuinely believed at all.

>>53510756
Women are women's worst enemy and always have been.

>>53510947

Good ol' Terry said it best: "There are thousands of reasons why Magic isn't the most powerful force in the universe. They're called Witches and Wizards."

>>53510165

If by 'friends' you mean 'local folk tales and mythology', sure, I guess?

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Relevant

>>53506523
The Modern look of a witch is heavily dependant on the Wizard of Oz film (1939). It amalgamated some of the folk legends (hag/crone, flying broomstick) into a single entity that played well for the camera tech at the time.
There's never been a consensus on witches' appearance other than the hag of folklore. Even their appearance in Wizard of Oz books vary wildly from the film.

>>53512728
The newest Oz movie was varying degrees of meh with a few bright spots. Mila Kunis' witch was pretty great, not only in aesthetic but also in execution.

It's telling that the best posts in this thread are the ones the PC cops are shitting on the most.

>>53513400

What are you even talking about?

>>53512728
>flying broomstick
Now somebody who has more time and knowledge can correct me.

I recall from somewhere (probly QI) that the flying from the broom came from having the broom /churn handle being stuck up persons ass and the reason for this was some herb that gave high if you shoved it up your rectum and you would help it in with a broomstick / churn handle.

>>53489164
The Wizard's are also incredibly competent. It's why they haven't torn the world apart yet in a magical war.

>>53489164

Given that the only time we've seen a Witch and a Wizard directly conflict, it was a pretty hard stalemate, I'm not sure that's true. They're powerful in different ways.

>>53513815
>They're powerful in different ways.

This.
I've never forgotten the Granny's explanation at the beginning of it:
Wizards are like a bottle of whisky - Witches are like a barrel of beer.
IMHO, the implication is the same: they both get you equally drunk.

The obvious way to include a proper witch in a fantasy setting without religion playing a part is to have any kind of unbreakable edict that the witch isn't beholden to.

"The King Cannot Be Killed" makes a lot of business for Greta the Poisoner

>>53484384
I usually just burn them

>>53513502
You're mostly right. The psychedelics they took absorbed through the skin, and the thinner skin the better. In most cases it wasn't up the ass, it was through the vag lips. Think about it, a witch smears the stuff along the length of the broom, she straddles it, and a short time later she's flying. So it's more broom humping than it is broom sodomy.

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>>53487674

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>>53514178

>>53513271
I liked Mila as the wicked witch. She seriously looked like she enjoyed the part. It's a shame the movie was such bland garbage.
I will admit, I loved the final showdown between the Wizard and the Witches. Something about "smoke and mirrors trumping real magic" has always held a special place in my heart.

>>53514334
She definitely enjoyed herself after the transformation, and that was fun to watch. I also enjoyed the performance, and again the aesthetic, before she transformed. Her transformation scene, and her expressions as she's figuring out that she was manipulated, was excellent. It's not Werewolf in London good, but it's still pretty damn good.

Franco as the showman was fun as well, and I agree on the trickery. I like a good heist / con movie though.

THOU SHALT NOT SUFFER A WITCH TO LIVE!

>implying there are male witches

A witch == sorceress. Deal with it.

>>53515448

But if the words have meaningfully different definitions and associated themes and cliches, what's the point of acting as if they're identical?

>>53515448
>A witch == sorceress. Deal with it.
Look at this faggot, look at this faggot and laugh!

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>>53486282
And then anon, was a faggot.

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Witches a best

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>>53487426
Great image, but that ridiculously big hat bothers me to no end.

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>>53514034
Carry on citizen, and go with God.

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>>53517719
>>53517447
You, on the other hand, will be judged.

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>>53517489
Big hats are fantastic though.

>>53517773
Eventually, but not by you.

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So what are your witches?

>Witchcraft started out as a strange druidic/shamanic/divination combination, yet over time included useful elements from other disciplines and schools (also including forbidden arts and knowledge)
>Usually tattoo their bodies with wards, hexagrams and ritual circles for rituals and casting certain spells (of course they also wear clothing that strategically cover said tattooed parts)
>Hats (if witches have ones) are sentient and no matter how big they are they keep themselves on their owner's head with tiny tentacles with suction-cups (they also know when they should leave their owners heads and when to jump back)
>Witches are eccentric in many ways and this comes with age (the older the witch, the more eccentric), which also explains the need for bigger hats
>Witches have much longer lifespans due to their witchcrafts, and they can change shapes (thus they can be very old, yet at the same time they can either look like grannies or like hot bombshells of ladies)
>Depending on the type of witchcraft, a witch can undergo physical changes (more nature/druidic ones have green skin and are partially plant in nature, while those that practice fire magic end up with flames for hair or even as pseudo fire elementals)
>Witches come in various forms as some are loners, others like living in communities, while there are those who live in cities and are good at hiding who they are (depending on country, the local religion, etc)
>Witches can have kids with people, and due to their witchcraft altering their bodies, they can produce offspring with affinities for witchcraft (doesn't need to be a daughter)
>Sons of witches are called Hermits (NOT WITCHERS)
>They have no fixed alignments, they can be any flavor of good, evil, neutral, or totally random
>Their eccentricity makes them sometimes difficult to handle/cooperate with
>Can be the female equivalent of This Guy or That Guy, depending on the mood

M-more witches...
Please p-post more witches!

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>>53520630
Just for you, anon

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>>53520630
Prepare for sick-day.

AND BOOBIES.

>>53484494
Culture has taken the concept of witches and turned it on its head multiple times. What you consider its key aspects were already subverted commonly outside of tabletop games.

So are witches better in high magic or low magic settings?

>>53520630
Here ya go buddy

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>>53522411
>>53520630
Pic didn't post for some reason

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>no Sucy
>no Elena
>no megucas

>>53525216
>>no Sucy
>>no Elena
>>no megucas
Post them

>>53519746
Females who have bargained their services to spirits for power. Some require physicality in the form of familiars, others desire them to serve as wives in every capacity, or they desire a child to incarnate into. This is the easiest bargain a woman can make with a spirit, and so gain magical power without any infrastructure of a tradition or teaching.

>>53501646
no

>>53519746
Witches are whores of Satan.

>>53519746
To understand witches, you have to understand Crows.

Crows are mysterious creatures, not unlike any common bird, until they open their beaks. They can speak - sometimes their words are honey, with promises, and sometimes they are vicious curses that ring in your ears for the rest of your life. Crows are as likely to grant you a boon as they are to eat your newborn child and replace it with a changeling.

Sometimes, a crow makes a deal, teaching a human its special brand of magic. This Witch is almost always a woman, and while she learns the crow magics that no other humans can learn, it warps her. At first, the sense of morality begins to disappear, but it warps her body as well as her mind. Her teeth fuse into two solid plates. Her finger and toenails elongate until shoes are useless, and a nail-like spike grows from her heel. Her eyes turn black, her skin pallid.

Sometimes, in flocks of crows at the edge of civilization, you can find an enormous crow still wearing wisps of human clothing.

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Sexy witches need to go. Cute witches are in.

>>53488274
>What is a Witch? Six words: "I know something you don't know."

Been thinking about the idea of witches having a powerful "secret of the universe", and I really like it. Been thinking about how to translate that into a game mechanic. Sort of like the "one unique thing" from 13th age. But unlike 13th age, I think it's pretty important that the unique thing actually *does* have practical effects, including combat usefulness.

I guess the tricky part is making the magical secret interesting/useful, and giving the player plenty of room for creativity, but not making it so powerful that it turns witches into superheroes. Even if a witch knows the secrets of turning stone into dust, she should still do the typical witch stuff: brewing potions, casting curses, performing rituals, etc.

I guess the standard solution would be to make a list of abstract "powers", and then graft flavor onto them. Although it's kinda disappointing when
>I speak the secret language of water
and
>I know the primordial secret of Ice that was used to create the Frost Giants
just boil down to
>blasting (100ft, d6 damage) (water damage)
>blasting (100ft, d6 damage) (cold damage)

You could do some kind of point buy system instead. Although that seems like a lot more work to build and more effort to run.

>>53519746
Witches are Sorcerers who have innate magic, but usually don't realize it. The spells, charms, mantras, and rituals are all a placebo they believe is granting them power, but is really just a pretense for their own abilities to call on the forgotten Gods and magiks in the world.

Familiars are often seen with Witches, this is often the case in younger or inexperienced Witches. Familiars are in reality, parasitic, they drain the magic and life force from their users, leaving them quickly looking old and sickly beyond their years. However, familiars can be bargained with for powers beyond your own, making familiars useful to contract for limited periods of time if you need their skills.

>>53512527
>baseline plays in my mind

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>Witch thread
>No Deneb

Come on /tg/.

>>53522411
>So are witches better in high magic or low magic settings?

They are good for both but act differently.
High fantasy make them more well-known and popular among common folks while low fantasy make them more suspicious and being the scapegoat of everything bad and unexplained.

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>>53528496
>>53525216
>All of these posers
Smh

>>53505336
>That's primarily christian propaganda used to suppress and vilify pre-christian mystics and wisewomen.

No. Witches were just made up bogeymen. Most women charged with witchcraft were insane homeless people or else the victims of some local grudge/real-estate dispute.

The BS about some underground pagan cult surviving into christian times was all made up in the 20th century by Margaret Murray.

>>53527315
Satan is too specific.

Witches are whores of demons and spirits. Fucking for power.

>>53484717
>>53487426
Witches and other such are generally portrayed in a positive light in Finnich mythology which has maintained it's original form far better than other European pagan religions.

>>53517489
>hating on big hats
>in a witch thread
You're in the wrong neighborhood, buddy...

>>53519746
>Every living being has inherent capabilities to channel mana into magic
>Except witches
>Pretty much no living creatures know how to channel their own (or other creatures') mana into magic
>Witches do

>>53528919
This
There weren't people worshiping the devil, and there weren't people hiding off to practice pagan rites in the woods. It was mostly peasants needing a scapegoat. Even the Church had to came out and tell them magic wasn't real, stop burning people for that. 'corse, that didn't stop the protestants. It wasn't until séances and the occult got popular in the 1970's that the druidic tradition theory was made up.

>>53529161
The Catholic Church is hardly innocent, since they pretty much invented the Witch Hysteria. But it's true they got over it first, and they actually burned fewer witches than the protestants since they sent church official to investigate instead of leaving it up to lynch mobs.

>>53528919
>>53529161
>No. Witches were just made up bogeymen. Most women charged with witchcraft were insane homeless people or else the victims of some local grudge/real-estate dispute.
Finnic paganisim did exist during the Witch Hunts, continuing to exist in a relatively pure form to the 19th century. Gladly being archived before it died out in "a natural form". It is reflected in the Witch Hunts in Finland, with most targets being men (women weren't witches). Finland proper was hit by the reformation quite hard, but Lapland really wasn't. Thus we have primary sources of Jean François Regnard actually talking to someone whose profession was a witch.

>>53529299
Catholics didn't burn anyone.
In fact you were less likely to die or be tortured if you submitted to the inquisition than if you ended up at a "civic court", aka dungeon.

And most "witches" weren't burnt either, protestants beheaded them and puritans hanged them, the orthodox burned some but it was mostly peasant mobs that burned people for whatever reason. The "witch burning hysteria" is a massive misconception born from the most famous "witch" trial been Joan D' Ark who was burned for religious dissent/blashphemy.

>>53529493
Also, you could get burned at the stake for forgery, stealing animals, having sex out of wedlock or not paying certain taxes. It wasn't just for witches, 1500-1600 people apparently just hated to dig graves.

>>53529299
>The Catholic Church is hardly innocent
Not so fast burgerclap, even if we assume 1/10th of the Hollywood villification of the inquisition is true. Salem is still the crown jewel of human cruelty until we delve in war crimes.

>>53529161
>Devil worship never existed until modern times, it's just a conspiracy to make Wiccans feel bad!

People throughout history have practiced devil worship, for the same reasons today. Some of them were probably witches.

It's never fare to say something never happened in history, because it probably did.

Ok, who decided that witches had to wear stockings with gather-belt?
That just doesn't make any sense.

>>53519746
>So what are your witches?

Basically just unregistered mages

Not all of them was bad, in fact its very few. But it was always glorified by the Circle to alienate them futher.

Most of the asshole was actually a registered ones, with power big enought to silence anyone, so they're pretty obscure by publics

The one who are evicted and get their licence repealed are called "Warlocks".

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I fucking love witches so god damn much. I wish there was some way to play out the typical pointy hatted witch fantasy, be it through traditional games or vidya.

>>53486282
>you are now aware asians copied superior western style art.
At least for figures sometimes faces too

>>53529537
>1500-1600 people apparently just hated to dig graves.
In their defense, building a fire is much easier than digging a proper hole. That shits exhausting.

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>>53531408
I'm curious what you would consider the essential parts of the "witch fantasy"?

As far as video games, Atelier comes pretty close. Basically an alchemy sim combined with a light JRPG and slice-of-life story.

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>>53506701
Could someone post some actual further reading on witches? I don't really care about their involvement in beer making or whether it's "le sjw" bullshit or not. I just want to read some good fiction or some scholarly stuff on witches. Does anyone that is knowledgeable on the subject have some suggestions?

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>>53535585
Yeah, I'd like to get down on that too

>>53484384
I like using them as people (usually but not always women) who practice folk magic. The old childless midwife, or the one the village takes their sick children or livestock to. Less flashy than wizard magic, but a lot more actual utility.

Christian witches are d&ds warlock. They get their powers from Satan and have familiars and everything.

>>53501646
>The fact that rape is a massively underreported crime
>The fact
How does anyone even go about proving this? I'm serious, what do you use to gauge the amount of real rapes going on as opposed to the the ones reported (ignoring false reports).

>prosecuting it is a clusterfuck a lot of the time
This isn't out of malice, justice is a very complicated business even when its na objective and easy to prove crime like assault or murder, but rape is specially complicated because two acts that are externally no different from each other can either be a beautiful love making session or one of the most abhorrent crimes that exist, all depending on the disposition of the victim, there's no way for it not to be a major clusterfuck to judge.

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Hey, what's going on in this thread?

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>>53539793
Witch stuff

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>>53531408
>I wish there was some way to play out the typical pointy hatted witch fantasy, be it through traditional games or vidya.

Dungeon fighter online is a korean f2p mmo. That's usually a recipe for disaster but it plays more like a mix between a beat'em up and a proper fighting game than anything else, and f2p players aren't completely fucked compared to people that fork over their money.

One of the paths of the mage class (a bunch of young anime girls and boys that traveled to the vaguely fantasy setting from their actual home of post-apocolypse apocalypse NYC in order to fix it) can take is witch.

To contrast with the more "standard" magic user classes, the witch is more about cheating to win, with a bunch of wacky item-based moves that have random chances of either sucking or being extremely powerful. also you get to airdash around the screen on a broom and air combo people to death, so that's cool too.

>>53535585
>>53536510
A long time ago some anthropologist anon, pic related, answered some questions regarding cultures and stuff. This includes witches

He also posted some .pdfs, which I saved. I'll post them in a moment

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>>53542346
forgot pic

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>>53535585
>>53536510
Note that I haven't read any of these .pdfs myself, so I don't know if it's a great help.

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>>53535585
>>53536510

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>>53536510
>>53535585

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>>53536510
>>53535585
This one's more on shamans or something

This thread has given me a new fetish. Thanks

>>53542464
Thanks for the dump, anon. Have a red witch as thanks.

>>53542573
Welcome.

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>>53542464
>>53542573
>>53542922
Oops. Here's the pic.

>>53535585
>>53536510

O boy do I have the link for you guys.

https://mega.nz/#F!AE5yjIqB!y7Vdxdb5pbNsi2O3zyq9KQ

This is pretty much as much knowledge and history you'll ever need on the occult. I reccommend reading the stuff on Wicca, Aleister Crowley, and Hermeticism if you want a purely "Witchy" background. Left hand path stuff if you want more Warlock types, Gnostic if you want Satanic / Christianity inspired Witches.

Gotten from wizards on /pol/ of course.

I need more stupid sexy witches for... Reasons.

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>>53544347
Do CUTE witches also work?

>>53484384
>You only can have original transgression in original context
How about no?

You literally can put archetypical "western" (read - Anglosaxon and Protestant) witches in any setting at all, because the sole fact they are a witch is a transgression by itself.
Living outside the society? Checked. Doing things unaccepted by the society? Checked. Enjoying themselves while doing things against local custom? Checked. It doesn't matter if that's a 1650s in Pennsylvania or it's Standard Generic Medieval High Fantasy With High Magic. You can ALWAYS make the witch to transgress the existing norms and social customs.

Fuck it, you can even easily combine cozy atmosphere AND witches, because those things aren't mutually exclusive at all. I remember playing a long-running Bronze Age PBF campaign that basically was coming of age story. One of it's povital elements was the realisation of one of the characters, a Jewish shepardess-turned-house-servant that her Egyptian "rabbi" is practicing magic and not only there is nothing wrong with learning it from him, but she won't instantly turn into cinders due to going against God's word. The game was cozy as fuck, literally almost pure story-building RP, but it was still about going against pretty much all cultural and religious taboos, while both having fun with it and pondering about the implications.

>>53539710
>consensual sex and rape are externally exactly the same
>the only person who makes it a rape is the victim i.e. the rapist doesn't bear responsibility

Hmm. In any case, as to your first question, it's at the base pretty simple. You ask via survey whether or not women have been victims of rape then you ask if they reported it.

>inb4 women have an incentive to respond that they were victims of fictitious rapes and underreport how many times they went to the cops because muh sand trees

>>53544652
>You ask via survey whether or not women have been victims of rape then you ask if they reported it.

This would be correct if the studies asked in such simple terms. Those kinds of studies usually pair other qualifiers, like physical violence, along with "sexual violence." Then, the term sexual violence is usually so broad in includes things like "withholding sex" as a type of sexual violence against women (as was the case in a hilariously awful study out of the UK.)

But, TLDR; Shoo /leftypol/.

>>53489082

These concepts are really well-presented in Pratcett's books, even if it's humorous fantasy. He hits the nail on the head when it comes to witches, using both mystical, fantasy tropes and actual anthropological viewpoint. Especially when it comes to "problem solving". Witches are a lot like shamans when it comes to their magic: They use folk or tribal form of magic, that is heavily ritualized, somewhat obscure, and most of all sympathetic, as it's supposed to convince simple folk of it's effectiveness. It's heavily based on practical knowledge, and sometimes uses smoke and mirrors to lure the attention away from actual method of solving the problem. Using reverse psychology also makes for a good witch trope, and gives the witches a reason to be hated and secretive - priests, mages and healers and scholars may view them as charlatans, manipulators of simple folk, actors putting on a show to overshadow the "competition". Alternative form of magic hits the "own/alien" note heavily, and that dualism can be a pretty good reason for xenophobia.

>>53539710
You know, almost all of criminal cases even just relatd with rape are impossible to be confused with anything else that brutal assault and lack of consensual agreement.
Your entire post reads like some /d/-tier virgin trying to justify one of the most horrible things possible as "just a kink", while blaming the victim. The fuck, man?!

>>53513732

I'd say this is more of "allies of circumstance" thing, keeping the balance for their own egoistic reasons, like surviving above all else. Add Pratchett's enormous hyperbole of academia as not only clash of viewpoints, but agendas, personalities and overall dickery to each other to have the full image. Wizards couldn't find their own ass outside of their studies. They're so deep into theory, they've lost the grasp of practise.

>>53542363
This person is correct. Protip: he's probably a Marxist in terms of anthropological and sociological theory. The definition of the fetish he gives is the one that Marx developed in his works and is indeed the definitive modern take. The process by which ideas take on independent life and become a fetish, attracting ideological and cultural meaning beyond their particular function, is called reification.

>>53544823
welcome to the right wing shithole 4chan has become in the last year or so

we really need to just start capping /pol/acks

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>>53544823
>>53544924

No one cares about your politics, post cute Witches.

>>53544895
Oh, let me put it in such a way that might be more familiar to many here. The "machine spirits" of the Imperium are a great example of the fetish. Some of the Mechanicus's rituals may have practical use in maintenance and repair, some might be misunderstood hocus pocus or long outdated and useless busywork, but it is all elevated to the level of ritual and imbued with religious significance; this is in part because they can't separate what's useful and what's not because of ignorance, in part because it just works, in part because it and other war-religious practices form the entire undergirding of Imperium society.

>>53545110
>supposedly neutral commentator
>doesn't point out the obvious /pol/acks who bring up the esjatdubya bogeyman first

>>53484384
It's easy if they worship demons. Demon WORSHIP is usually a no-no, even when drawing power from them through other means might be acceptable.
I believe the witches in Skyrim had something to do with hagravens as well, and hagravens are nasty, monstrous beings that like to kill people.

D&D pushes the witch archetype onto hags, doesn't it? And they're nasty, monstrous beings that like to kill people as well.

>>53545171
>post off-topic memes from other boards
>act like the people replying to the bait are the *real* problem
You new here? That's pretty standard practice.
Usually /pol/, but you also sometimes see /fit/ bait (not that there's much difference).

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>>53545171
Nobody gives a fuck, post witches

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>>53545392
Does this count?

>>53545272
I believe D&D make witches to be alchemist with a dash of magic focusing on the chaotic aspects of nature.

>>53545522
I meant the witch archetype, not the word "witch."

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How about Gun-Witches?

Will the fucking gender studies fuckheads please return to Evergreen. We're trying to have a thread here.

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>>53546826
Deadly

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>>53545392
This is the only normal witch I have.

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>>53546826
I am intrigued; tell me more.

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>>53547096
Well you see...

You give a Witch a gun.

>>53547122
didn't that thing shoot, like, bean bags or rubber bullets?

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>>53547122
Go on. . .

>>53546929
>still trying to push the gender studies bogeyman angle
How about you /pol/acks fuck off to your containment board. The thread begins with the discussion of witches as transgressors and, surprise surprise, that means actually reading into the literature about witches in history and trying to discuss its role in contemporary pop culture. If that's a little too academic for you people who get their facts from memes and are only in this thread for pictures of women in kneesocks and pointy hats, y'all can fuck right off. We're on topic here. You aren't.

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>>53547182
Well, this is kind of lewd, but...

Witches can ride their guns!

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>>53546826
Ah yes, the gun witch. Ancient enemy of the sword monk.

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>>53547297
None of what you said has anything to do with rapeculture memeing. I'm all for the witch talk, that and the links provided have been interesting.

>>53547591
That can't be safe. It's efficient, your broom is a gun, but all the same that can't be safe. It's gonna get super hot in places you don't want to be super heated.

>>53547591
>>53547629
She's holding a hand grenade while flying straight into machine gun fire from a fighter plane, and you're worried about heat dissipation?

Actually, the more I look at this image, the funnier it gets. Now I really want to play in an RPG about flying gun-mounted witches taking on WWII aircraft.

>>53547766
>flying gun-mounted witches taking on WWII aircraft
There is literally an anime about that

>>53547621
Sauce me senpai

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>>53547833
Kill 6 Billion Demons.
>>53547774
No lolis pls.

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>>53547621
K6BD is so metal.

>>53484384
For me, Witches were abominations in the eyes of the civilized world.

In my universe, some witches were known to gather young ladies, wipe their minds, and make copies of themselves to take over small villages or even small towns if there were enough copies. If the originals would die, her soul would be placed inside one of the young ladies, making her immortal. The ones that were "good" would take on an apprentice that, when the witch was about to die, would fuse their souls together in order for the witch to live on in a sense.

The reason this is strange is because many believe that death refreshes the soul, cleansing away the sins of your past life in order to go onto the next as a pure soul. People believe that all witches are no longer mortal and, as such, are no longer capable of doing good acts.

>>53487674
>>53514295

Diana a best.

>>53544823
Consensual sex can be trialed as rape if the "victim" wants it to.
That's why there's a system in place to stop women from pulling that bullshit. That it makes it harder to give justice to an extreme minority of actual victims is sad, but necessary.

>>53547297
/leftypol/ doesn't desserve witches. At most you're a bunch of goblins upset that humans have it better.

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Hear posting best wtich anons and how to do them correctly.

>>53548179
>an extreme minority of actual victims

I know being insensitive and stupid is "cool" right now but whew, you're hitting it out of the park on this drivel.

>>53548690
He actually does kind of have a good point to be honest. If everyone just trusts them blindly you always risk getting a duke lacrosse case, "A Rape on Campus", And Tawana Brawley style events all over again.

The correct decision is to see if her story matches up. Look at the evidence and credibility level. Saying it's only a minor amount of the times that happens is

A. Hard as hell to prove either way because of the unreliability of the statistics on this.

B. Effectively saying you would be willing to let someone innocent go to jail because you might by chance get someone guilty.

>>53548656
nice

>>53484384
Odds are if they're fucking around with dark twisted ruinous magics and knowingly consorting with devils, they're a witch.

>>53548816
Neither of them, but if you even think that this is how trial for rape works, answer me this:
Are you from Pakistan?

>>53547887
It doesn't have lolis in it. And it's pretty good, all things consider. Nothing special (aside the witch improvising a HMG for her broom, since she had to use SOMETHING while jumping off a plane), but also nothing bad or wrong. Typical 6/10 series.

>>53547833
Kill 6 Billion Demons, an internet comics that goes from nowhere to nowhere, but can keep you around due to weird-ass artstyle. Thing is, the moment you realise it has absolutely zero plot and everything is improvised, you are going to suddenly start loosing interest at really quick rate. And since that slog is going now for... 8 years I think, you aren't missing all that much aside metal as fuck random strips like this one.

>>53548690
I don't believe their "1/4 women have been raped" bullshit because I'm a mental health professional, from a family of mental health professionals, with a very wide net of mental health professional friends and colleagues, and if neither we nor hospitals or police (FBI gives an 1/700 aprox) have evidence of these 41M rape victims it's because they don't exist.

>>53551291

In what universe is 1/700 an "extreme minority," to use your words? The fucking MURDER RATE in 2014 was 4 in 100,000, and you're acting as if 1 in 700 is something to be DISMISSIVE of?

>>53551384
Comparatively to 1/4, yeah.

>>53551291
>Being this tier retarded
>Not understanding statistics in the slightest
Like this anon >>53551384 pointed out, you are saying that something occuring more often than once per thousand is something to ignore.
Let's put it through numbers, ok? Because apparently you are too fucking dense to comprehend the scale.
For each 700 people, you have 1 rape.
So that means for every 700,000 people, you have 1,000 rapes.
For comparison, murder rate for 700k people would be 28.

And you are trying to shrug it, because "you don't believe in it". The magic of statistics is that you don't have to believe in anything for them to work. But it does take to be an ignorant motherfucker to dismiss them as "just statistics".

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>>53548230
>/leftypol/

>>53551384
Are you dumb?
Feminists claim 1/4 women are raped and 1/3 rapes go unpunished. But reality points towards 1/700 with less than 2% non-reports and 8% false rape allegations.

The "extreme minority" that suffer a lack of justice from being as anal as we are about rape legislation are the 2% non reporters. While on the other hand jailing anyone who is ever accused of rape would ruin innocent men's lives just because you're a white knight faggot.

>>53547297
>muh /pol/ boogeymen

everytime

>>53551417
So where are those 41M unreported rape victims?
They don't exist. It's deconstructivist bullshit to keep women paranoid and dependant on muh feminism.

>>53551489
Using the math going by the united states total population, 1/700 rapes is approximately 459000. I dunno if this is yearly or what, but thats about a tenth of the alleged claims.

>>53551458

The 1/4 number comes from the loosest possible definition of rape, ie any contact to which the victim did not consent and which he or she believes to have sexual intent. Its not FEMINISM VS REALITY, its a philosophical definition of rape vs a legal definition of rape.

When you use statistics like " 'only' 2% of victims don't report," to be dismissive of people who believe that reporting one of the most heinous crimes imaginable is useless because they won't get justice or will be treated worse than the person who committed a crime against them or the million other reasons women AND men don't report rapes, you're being a fucking dickhead. I don't care how much you hate the mean old FEMINAZIS, minimizing the horror of legal reality to try and win a philosophical argument makes you an asshole. Knock that shit off.

Also, I find it really funny that you're eager to be dismissive toward that supposed 2% of non-reporters and yet seem to think that that supposed 8% of false allegations is so horrible that its worth keeping the system broken. 1 out of 50 rapists never even being accused is totally fine, but 4 out of 50 accusations (not prosecutions, not indictments, JUST ACCUSATIONS) being inaccurate, holy shit major crisis alert!

Yeah, feminists claim literally 1/8th of the american population has been raped but neither the US Dpt of Justice, police corps, medical institutions, mental health professionals, insurance companies or non-feminist non profits can find those victims. Not even pooled together do their produce anywhere near close to that number.

It's a meme and a lie, but it sure gets white knights advocating for stronger rape legislation not aware it may come to bite them in the ass if they get their way.

>>53551605
Go get falsely accused of rape and come back to tell us how much of a victimless crime it is.

I free rapist is less heinous than 50 innocent men having their lives ruined. Killing that rapist won't get his victim un-raped and he will eventually be caught and punished if he reicides. Absolving them won't de-stigmatize the innocent mens' lives either.

The current rape legislation is as effective as it can be without extremelly invasive surveillance methods being bestowed upon the population. Ultimatedly it's up to women's choices, both the one that didn't report a heinous crime, and the fifte that choose to commit one.

>>53551605
>Its not FEMINISM VS REALITY,

I more or less agree with the rest of your post, except this.

It absolutely is, or at least it is the effect it has when they use such a ridiculously broad definition of rape, only to inflate the stats.

The 1/4 number is stupid, and ruins the credibility of any program that would aid rape victims just by association.

>>53551690

I don't have any major problems with current rape legislation in the majority of states, although there are several who are way behind the times and haven't updated their rape shield laws since the 70s or still don't make any accommodations regarding the Right To Face The Accuser despite the many studies that show rapists can intimidate their victims just via their presence.

But the reason that many people, not just the big bad feminists, advocate for stronger or different rape laws is because they are trying to correct for the social stigmas and biases and presumptions regarding rape, and sex in general, that are very real in our society. I can't think of any other crime in our civilization where victim blaming is more common, and its not out of some high-minded ideal about preserving the integrity of our Innocent Until Proven Guilty/Protect From The Fallout Of False Accusation legal ideals. You KNOW that's not the reason. When a mugger steals somebody's wallet nobody ever says that the mugging victim should have fought harder or they must have wanted to lose their money, and when there's a murder prosecutors don't investigate the victim's family looking for grudges against the suspect because a false accusation of FUCKING MURDER might ruin their reputation so they need to be super sure.

Which brings me back to my point: stop minimizing legal reality because you're so fucking terrified of certain philosophical viewpoints. Its maximum douche. Also, 1 rapist free vs 50 innocent lives ruined? You're the one who said 8%. So its 1 rapist free vs 4 innocent lives ruined. I wonder what the false accusation rate is on murder. I'm guessing you don't care as much about that though, because it doesn't give you philosophical ammo.

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>This entire thread after first few posts
Thanks, /pol/, for ruining yet another good premise

>>53551856
Nigger get fucking real, I've been mugged three time and all three times the fucking police and everyone I talked to about it asked ME what I was doing to get mugged.

It's their job to make sure they're actually doing their job and not just chasing lies. Women don't desserve the right to immediately put anyone in jail just because they say so, no matter how heinous rape can be.

And "did the victim had any enemies?" is literally the first question investigators ask to muder victims' contacts.

>>53551761

I tend to agree with you that inflating the statistic that much is dumb, and about as bad as pretending 1/700 isn't fucking awful enough to be a huge problem.

That being said, I stand by my point that saying that THE FEMINISTS saying that the rape rate is 1/4 is a psychotic delusion and the real rate is "merely," 1/700 is shitbird behavior. Having a philosophy about how Rape is defined which is way beyond what society will accept and using that philosophy to define your statistic is shitty behavior. Pretending that actual statistic that should shock and horrify you are no big deal BECAUSE those alternative statistic are so inflated is far worse.

>>53551879
/leftypol/ has a website of their own but they can't stop coming to whine at us for whatever reason.

Go back to tumblr where nobody will do anything but listen and believe how catholics burned witches and it was all christians demonizing poor innocent goddessess (who surely were pocs as well) because no ancient culture had their own tales about shady hags who hurt people with magic.

>>53551466
>the most popular board on this site
>boogeyman
I think what you meant to say was
>MUH FAKE NEWS
>lefty shills
>deep state hollow earth propoganda

>>53551898

>Nigger get fucking real, I've been mugged three time and all three times the fucking police and everyone I talked to about it asked ME what I was doing to get mugged.

That's not exactly the point I was making, but its close enough that I'll concede you're right, victim blaming is a problem in many crimes. I overreached. That said, if you're balancing "Badness of Crime," vs "Frequence and degree of harm caused by victim blaming," Rape would win that contest against every other crime every time, by a GIANT margin.

>It's their job to make sure they're actually doing their job and not just chasing lies. Women don't desserve the right to immediately put anyone in jail just because they say so, no matter how heinous rape can be.

Explain why Rape is such a special snowflake when it comes to police and prosecutorial care? How many people are serving multi-year drug sentences in this country because the cops, lawyers and judges didn't care enough to tap the brakes and "not just chase lies." Rape victims should not get a lesser degree of protection because there is some vague impression that a false rape accusation is somehow direly worse than being falsely accused of any other felony.

>And "did the victim had any enemies?" is literally the first question investigators ask to muder victims' contacts.

That isn't even remotely relevant to my point, which is that murder victims are not typically investigated at the same time as the murderer on the off chance they might have deserved it or used the murderer to help them commit the suicide they secretly wanted or whatever. It was a parallelism to make a point that Rape is treated differently by the system than most other crimes, which is fucked up.

>>53551900
You're just running circles around yourself. The point stated was that forcing the 2% of 1/700 that don't denounce their rape to be trialed is not worth ruining innocent men's lives by making rape allegations even more popular when false rape allegations are already close to 10%.

Aprox. 9180 women weren't forced to trail their rapist and aprox. 45900 innocent men didn't go to jail to make white knights and feminazis happy. Until we find a system that makes false rape allegations impossible, that's acceptable.

>>53551989
>Rape victims should not get a lesser degree of protection because there is some vague impression that a false rape accusation is somehow direly worse than being falsely accused of any other felony.
White knight faggots won't kill you because you were accused of smoking pot. Accusations of rape and pedophilia are a death sentence no matter if you're innocent. For every celebrity who gets away because they pay people not to care, theres dozens of nobodies who'll never be safe or hold a decent job again just because a woman lied.

>That isn't even remotely relevant to my point, which is that murder victims are not typically investigated at the same time as the murderer
They are, in case you haven't been paying attention a lot of dirt surfaces immediately after someone important's untimely death and a bunch of it is slipped to the media from police investigations

>>53552010

I'm still waiting for that explanation of why false rape allegations are so much worse and life ruining than false murder allegations and therefore its OK for 2% of 1/700 to get away with their crime completely when 2% would be a totally unacceptable rate of non-reported criminals getting away with their crime when applied to the 4/10,000 murder rate.

When you've got that argument, just let me know. I know false murder accusations just roll off people like water off ducks, but I'd appreciate it anyway.

Also LOL at 8% suddenly being "close to 10%," because that's a scarier number to help you make your point. Did you consider rounding up that 2% to "almost 5%," as well? I'm guessing no.

>>53552057

>For every celebrity who gets away because they pay people not to care, theres dozens of nobodies who'll never be safe or hold a decent job again just because a woman lied.

You know, the British government studied attrition in rape cases, including a big section on false accusations in the early 00s, and in their study period of multiple years they found that out of 220-ish false accusations, only 39 of those even got to the point where they gave a name to the police? The level of fear people have of the "false accusation ruined my life," boogeyman so far outweighs the actual instances of it happening its kind of staggering.

>>53552100
False murder allegations don't start 8% of muder investigations. And attempted murder allegations are both relatively easy to prove false, and come with up to 7 years of prison for the accuser.

>>53552250
The 1/700 number is wrong because it accounts for statutory rape and doesn't distinguish genders.

>>53552250
That study was 17 years ago. Kangaroo courts in academia and social have made it easier to weaponize rape allegations, as recent and ongoing cases have shown. In addition, the feminist talking point of listen and believe deliberately acts against innocent until proven guilty. On a side note it was hilarious watching Hilary take that off of her website when Bill's old accusers came forward again in the recent election.

Unless you're wealthy or powerful enough to avoid the consequences, the accusation of rape is a sentence in itself given the tangible but non-judicial punishments that go along with it.

And once again, fuck you for fucking up a good thread with your >muh feminisms.

>>53552622
>complaining about fucking up a good thread.
>keeps replying
Never change your martyr complex, /pol/.

>>53553360
>everyone who disagrees with me is /pol/