/4eg/ - 4th Edition D&D General

We're dieing, anon.

I'm not very experienced with the game at all, but I like Long Night Scion.

Winter fey, cold magic, and teleporting are just stuff I like in general (not just in 4e, or just because of frostcheese)

This PP enhances all of those, making you a teleporting frost-explosion lord. Especially when 'locks can get at-will teleports.

>>53388778
LNS with Eladrin Knight is mad fun.

As for EDs, Thief of Legend? It's pretty based thematically, and it does give you a good stat boost.

>>53388795
Oh, combining it with Eladrin Knight is a good idea. With a knight you actually want to be in melee a bunch, making that level 16 benefit more easily & consistently used.

Is the class actually any good, though? It's an essentials one and touhoufag wasn't very kind on it post level 2, I believe. But mmm Feywild Guardian/Glimmering Blade.

>>53389402
It's not great overall, since, as you say, it is essentials, but it makes the most use of the thing short of cheesy Eladrin charger builds (sadly nerfed).

Just using INT based attacks also shores up one of its weak NADs, which is a nice bonus.

Been a while since I made a build for it though.

>>53389450
Actually, how do you fix an Eladrin Knights "probably have no strength, so poor basic attacks" problem?
The one I idly put together before went Int/Cha with a MC into Swordmage for Intelligent Blademaster, but if you MC into Swordmage you can't MC into Warlock, which means you can't get LNS.

There's Melee Training, but as that was nerfed it's less-great. Are your options just deal with that, or ask the GM if it can be as pre-nerf?

>>53389508
Melee training for INT.

The hit to damage hurts a bit, but the warlock PP more than makes up for it.

Does 4E have any good published adventures?

Any Runepriest homebrew content out there?

I will ask again, is there a way to use the offline compendium to make a module for Fantasy Grounds for 4e or do I need the DDI account and the parser?
Alternatively, someone that already has the module can share it?

"no"

>>53391010
What level/setting?

>>53396008
Not him but level 1 to max in Dark Sun would be cool if it's a thing.

>>53388778
Try combining it with eladrin swordmage

Multiclassing from swordmage into warlock, then grabbing acolyte power to also get the warlock at-will teleport and eladrin swordmage advance.

Personally though I prefer evermeet warlock, invisible defenders are extremely difficult for most monsters to deal with

>>53388725
Good.

>>53388778
Long Night Scion works wonders with a Eladrin Swordmage|Battlemind (which is a legit build that actually kind of works really well). Get the teleports up and running easily plus the punishment and you end up with some really hilarious stuff.

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>>53387770
Self-Forged was always super cool imo

>>53387770
Probably Time Bender for me. Mostly because one of my favorite PCs used it.

>10 years later
>still playing an edition so bad it's the only one not to get a legacy spinoff

4rries are as bad as 3aboos.

>>53399532

>>53387770
I really like the flavor of the planeshifter and the usefulness of the malec-kwh janissary.

I don't usually look at the ed's but hordemaster seems interesting

>>53399532
4e hasn't got a legacy spinoff because making a 4e legacy spinoff is really, really hard

You need at least 8 classes, and each class needs at least 6 at-will options, and at least 4 options for each daily power, encounter power and utility power. That's at least 624 powers that you need to make and balance from classes alone. 4e is huge, and recreating it would be an equally huge undertaking

>>53399709
If you just go the Pathfinder route you can change practically nothing.

>Make 4.5
>It's just incorporating the "Feat taxes" with misc other minor things

We did it, boys.

>>53399709
Or they could restructure the power system to make it actually competent.

>>53400212
Interesting, how would you do that?

>>53400795
Not him, but for one thing the game actually suffers pretty hard under the sheer power and plentifulness of dailies.

If you made 4e entirely without them, it would be a much more enjoyable game.

You could also do with nerfing them and giving out fewer, of course, as that would be more in keeping with 4e itself.

Another thing is that many (not all) at-will powers are a bit too shitty to be interesting or helpful options, even in the perfect situation for them.
A lot of them really are only last-ditch effort stuff for when you're completely out of other powers.
But if at-wills were generally a little better (still not as good as encounter powers at all, of course) they would actually feel like a part of your character and less like an afterthought, and would see some occasional use by clever players. Perhaps then one could feel reasonably satisfied with having fewer other powers (such as, for example, if you had fewer daily powers) since you'd still have cool stuff to do in a lot of situations.

(A small handful of at-will powers are monstrous, of course. I'm speaking in general terms.)

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Was making almost all the stars Evil a bad idea? Should there have been benign or even benevolent stars?

>>53400940
Is this another situation where we in part shill strike.

Making Dailies only "big deals" would be interesting. Like 10th/20th/30th level capstones to end a "path."
And then making other stuff better/more interesting to make up for it, if it was necessary.
I mean there's a lot of ways you could change everything and anything, who knows what's "best."

>>53401274
Making anything universally something is usually kind of a meh idea, if only because it makes working with it overly limited.
Especially something as weird and on the scale as stars.

>>53401274
I could've sworn there were some stars that, while not benevolent, were at least not malevolent. There was a e-zine article from one of the insider mags about them I think. Might've just been one of them in particular for the Warlock patron stuff though.

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How well do TWF barbarians play? I know rangers do it better, but I want to play one regardless.

/4eg/, has anyone made an effort to compile any Chaos Scar stuff? I just started running it, and I'm pretty sure I've got everything, but I want to make sure that I'm not missing something.

>>53391010
Yeah, a bunch ripped off from previous editions back when the writers had actual talent and didn't just make kitchen sink bullshit settings. Same with 5e, it's just rehashing of material from D&D's better days.

>Want to make a 4e clone
>Don't want Hasbro lawyers kicking in my door and putting me even further into economic misery.

Wat do?

>>53400940
>>53401723
I kinda like these ideas. Obviously there's risk in overdoing it, like the essentials martial classes got, but limiting options to the players can make some more creative stuff.
Speaking on boosting the at-wills, the crazy stuff you could do with different martial feats got kind interesting. Made a riposte rogue once who got +1 AC/Ref when he hit, and if he hit with his riposte, the enemy would have a -5 to hit with the triggering attack. More of those kinds of At-Will effecting feats would make a low-daily (or even low-encounter) take on 4e a fun alternative.

>>53403120
That would require wizards to acknowledge that 4e even existed

>>53403120
>>53403701
Yeah, it kinda seems they have stopped giving a fuck. 3.5 and 5e SRDs are getting taken down left and right, while funin.space is just there.

>>53402069
Quite well, all things given. Just use the biggest fucking weapon you can with your main hand, then hold your true weapon in your off-hand and use that one for attacks.

>>53387770
>favorite Paragon Path

Sigil Carver, allows you to protect all of your friends flawlessly (if you're a warlock, or more strangely, an avenger, or otherwise have a sliding basic attack) -- all from the back of the party.

>Epic Destiny

Probably Arcane Sword epic destiny. One of the most powerful, can't really lose, and your character becomes a cool artifact that could show up in a campaign one day in a more playable fashion than, say, a deity.

So I'm running a Dark Sun campaign that's gonna emphasize the wilderness, only problem is the archetypal location for the wilderness in DS is a fucking big pile of sand. So I need ideas for jazzing up wilderness fights.

Stuff like ruins and temples and stuff are great, but livening up the wilderness is pretty tricky and giving reasons for people to fight, instead of longbow rangers on kanks being the currency of fights. Something to push people into closer range.

One idea I've thought of was that on most maps, the relative center might be the safe zone, and the outskirts of the map might be difficult and dangerous terrain. When not distracted, the PCs can navigate through it alright, but that in many regions, its too dangerous to move very far without paying close attention.

This would also be an explanation why enemy archers don't just split up and kite the PCs for all eternity.

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>>53407779
Could work. I would also include things like large dunes that obstruct vision/movement and big rock fields where navigation can become tricky and the rocks are large enough to (again) obstruct vision at distance.

You might also check out the module at the back of the book. Its got a little bit with a ruin you might want to look at.

>>53407779
Wilderness encounters simply don't happen in empty fields. If you encounter something in the desert, it had been either laying in ambush (picking a spot that's good for ambush, so favorable terrain features for it) or is the home of something that made a living there (so expect holes and other sort of traps).

It's very unlikely you run into something that just happen to cross the same part of a fuckhuge featureless desert.

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>>53407916
Although, if you did, you might make it into some sort of chase challenge which ends in a closer combat/escape. Might make such an encounter more interesting.

>>53407946
Hmm, spotting a halfling caravan on the horizon and realizing they spotted you would be a fun long-range chase scene where you try to get into a defensible position before they can shoot you to death from safety.

>>53407853
Interesting. I noted they neglected to update the Kruthik stats for MM3 standards, for shame.

Is there a way to become immune to weakness in 4e?

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If I use this Daily, does it count as having the weapon keyword? Would it trigger Mark of the Storm -> Flail Expertise?

I can't tell if they thought it'd be redundant to list the keyword, or they didn't want it to be there.

>>53410237
No. It also doesn't roll an attack, so the daily doesn't have a hit condition. The at will damage change with any applicable melee attack would though.

>>53399532
... Strike?

>>53410744
And 13th Age at least.

Possibly Valor.

>>53410744
>>53410776
Not that guy, someone else entirely. What are Shrike and Valor?

>>53410868
Strike! got a thread here >>53373704

With a pitch in the second post that should cover most stuff.

Valor is a 4e-like that's class-less and takes cues from action series (shounen mostly).

>>53405907
What weapons work best for them?

>>53413685
Bastard Sword off-hand, and some kind of Axe or Hammer on the main hand.

It's really cheesy because those attacks that roll twice you're rolling with a +3 in both, but those that you roll once and deal damage with both you're attacking with a +3 and the biggest damage dice you've got.

>>53413685
I like to use a bastard sword in the off-hand with a gauntlet in the main hand

This way you can switch from dual-wielding to two-handing at-will, letting you use powers like howling strike, but it is a bit of an overall damage loss compared to using, say, two bastard swords

Keeping this up.

>>53410915
Do you have a link to any Valor stuff? I'm actually a huge sucker for shonen action series.

>>53414705
I'm building a barb mc monk for d10 fists which i can hurl at my enemy. There is also a warlord in the party to hand out basics like candy. I'm super excited

>>53387770
I always wanted to play a Saint ED if only because it was really thematic with a character I was playing in my longest running game. Sadly, we stopped at about level 18.

>>53396738
Reminder that they did old-school level multiclassing, if that would save a feat or two.

>>53402175
I'll start looking through my stuff and see what all I've got, and try to get a list you can compare to.

>>53417654
>d10 fists which i can hurl at my enemy.
huh

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>>53402175
>>53417767
Actually, it looks like two of the pdf's had compiled lists of everything from Dungeon all the way up to 221. I'll just upload those two and you can take a look through. Looks like everything for Chaos Scar was listed in Dungeon 200.

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>>53417860
And 221, which covers everything from 200 to 221.

>>53417785
Yea, Master of Fists + Improved Monk Unarmed Strike + Hurl Weapon. As human you can make it go at level 2.

>>53417654
>>53417785
>>53417935
Isn't that just Hadouken? Throwing away fists?

Lets say I want to run a fairly open-ish exploration/sandbox style campaign, what would be a good amount of battlemaps to expect to require for the first two tiers?

>>53417976
that's how I'm gonna run it

So if I want to make a dirty fighting pugilist, are my best bets rogue MC or HC monk with piercing palm or brawler fighter depending on preferred role?

>>53418637
Rogue MC Monk with Piercing Palm. If you really wanna get into that sort of shenanigans of dirty fighting, Wood Elf Cunning Sneak Rogue/Ghostwalker/Master of Moments. Hidden pugilistic fighting whose greatest, dirtiest tricks involve bending time itself to give himself an advantage.

Seriously, shit is hilarious. Move first, hide from everyone, kick a bastard in the shins real quick (you did pick Quicksilver Motion, right?) plus if you pick the second Monk MC feat you can Flurry of Blows the guy too. If you wanna be a jackass about it, Drunken Monkey.

Seriously, it's hilarious at Level 11, what with starting out Hidden, basically, moving into the enemy lines, knocking out a guy then hiding again. If the reading is that Dance of the Stinging Hornet is a Move Action attack, you have now the following sequence: roll Initiative, roll Stealth to become Hidden, Quicksilver Motion, Dance of the Stinging Hornet, Low Slash, Killer's Ambush, become Hidden again. It's great, knocks out a guy right out of the fight.

>>53403120
Shave it down a lot, like only one tier and try some other stuff like 13th Age, Last Stand and Strike did.

>>53387770
I am trying to install the character builder and I keep getting a 7Zip 105 error. wtf is this about?

>>53420004
Run as admin, make sure it's all going the same path. Might be going to (x86)

>6 or more less than Defense: Miss
>1-5 less than Defense: Graze
>Equal to Defense / 1-5 more than Defense: Hit
>6 or more above Defense: Critical Hit

How would you make this work for a retroclone using this for 4e without going bounded accuracy?

>>53420968
No idea how to answer this, but it makes me think of a different question. I "get" what bounded accuracy is, but can someone cement the definition, cause from how I understand it, 4e has bounded accuracy, yet I've seen people say that it doesn't.

>>53422381
It doesn't. Bounded accuracy has nothing to do with an upper limit to the bonuses you can get to any given roll. Bounded accuracy means that progression from Level 1 to whatever allows lower level challenges to remain usable with the PCs the higher their level becomes. Basically a certain limitation to the way numbers grow level by level, even with bonuses her and there, means enemies from eight levels ago are still good as trash mobs without being an auto hit when attacked. This, of course, is the theory, but the practice is implausible to do perfectly without some sort of strict binding of the accuracy system.

4e doesn't have this because enemies past a certain level can only dodge attacks if the table uses the natural 1 is always a miss rule. Accuracy catches up to monsters easily in 4e, especially with all the bonuses thrown about in it. This is why it doesn't have bounded accuracy.

After seeing the horror that is the 5e Firbolg art, I'm tempted to play a Firbolg in a 4e game (Counts as Goliath seems fitting).

Would a Goliath make a good Warden, Ranger or Shaman? I'm kinda new to 4e and something nature-y seems fitting for them.

>>53422640
Well, look at the stats

Obviously they make good wardens, the stats match up perfectly, on top of that their racial PP, Stoneblessed, is perfect for polearm wardens. They make pretty good rangers thanks to bonus strength and wisdom, but tend to be very frail due to not getting a dex bonus, and while they get a wis bonus for shamans, that's all they get, every other racial thing favors weapon-based classes

>>53422457
Thank you for the very detailed and coherent answer. Based on this, I do have another question about 4e.

In 4e, you get a bonus to everything equal to one half level. Now, since a party is rarely ever going to face enemies not at the same level, I only understand the one half level thing as a means to have big numbers (which many players, myself included, enjoy), but it seems to be a mere placebo effect, as you're really not getting any stronger relative to the monsters and other challenges you'll be facing. Hence, what is the point of the whole "one half level bonus" when it seems redundant (cause enemies' attacks and defenses increase at roughly the same rate as PCs) outside of giving a larger bonus every other level?

>>53422667

Right. So they'd be decent at any of them but Warden is where they'd shine?

>>53422689
>Now, since a party is rarely ever going to face enemies not at the same level,

Not true. In fact, one of the easier ways to stagnate combat is to use monsters only of level appropriate challenge. You have to mix and match between a four level scale of the PCs for best results, and tougher monsters might be five levels higher than the PCs.

>>53422689
enemies do not scale at the same rate as players, enemy defenses and attacks go up every level, not every half level, the difference for players is made up in the form of magic items, stat increases and annoying feat taxes

But yes, it is pretty much only there as a placebo effect, although it does mean that in the rare occasion of fighting things significantly above or below your level, the level difference has severe impact, which can be used to excellent effect by a good DM

>>53422697
Yeah, they are tough guys.

>>53422769
>>53422689
A good solution for this would be the way "The black hack" does it. You add bonuses based on level difference.

So a lvl2 monster vs a lvl 1 party has +1 to all defenses and attack rolls, while against a lvl 3 party, he'd have -1. You basically never have to change the numbers on your sheet just from leveling up, but it has the same effect.

You can also easily scale down the advancement rate, and have the bonuses apply every 2 or 3 or 4 etc. levels to match 5e scaling if you want, so it's modular.

>>53422744
>>53422769
Thanks for the replies. Y'all answered it perfectly. I haven't played 4e extensively enough to know about the level mixture with encounters. And thanks for the answers about the one half level thing.

>>53422744
From a design perspective, because now I'm idly wondering:

Why would that stagnate combat?
Shouldn't varying powers, roles, terrain, etc keep it all interesting?

Does modifying hit rates & lethality by ~20% (against the player, or for, due to scaling NADs, AC, ATK, DMG) actually make it more interesting? Those aren't things the players can meaningfully interact with - they'll still hit the enemies with the same debuff powers and themselves with the same buff powers, no?

I suppose it offers a bit of variability in that you don't go "well I guess I hit most everything on 7-9s, because scaling keeps it all at about that" BUT, player powers, CA, etc should be doing that too. And then of course that players and monsters scale differently (1/level versus 0.5/level, where players jump up at intervals because of new +1s, etc) so it won't be overly consistent anyways.

This is ignoring "using huge level disparities as a narrative device" as that one feels odd to me, even though it really shouldn't, as I don't believe in some Oblivion-tier "the world scales" (even though normal encounter balance and whatnot could imply everything might).

>>53422689
>big numbers

The scaling is not as pointless as you might think. A level 8 brute for example can remain a valid foe throughout all of Heroic, for example.

4e definitely doesn't have bounded accuracy, but it has more level based flexibility than you might think. >>53422744 says a 4 level scale, but I prefer to instead look at the defenses of the monster instead -- for level 1, I prefer a max of AC 20.

So I'd say up to level +3 for soldiers, level +5 for controllers, lurkers, and skirmishers, level +7 for brutes and artillery,

A brute 8 is not too different from an elite soldier 4.

>>53424579
Different monsters have different stats in D&D. Not much sure what else to say. Its fun to use recurring monster types that the PCs gradually outgrow.

>>53422689
Part of the point of level scaling is that you can fine tune the power level of monsters that way.

For example, in 5e, extra monsters greatly impacts the power level -- you have to keep a close eye on how badly the PCs are outnumbered. AoE damage is HEAVILY rationed.

In 4e, being outnumbered by minions or weaker monsters is not as big of a deal necessarily.

I love how /5eg/ and /pfg/ are mostly discussion of the game, but /4eg/ is mostly retarded 4rries trying to defend why their game has turned fighters into casters and trying to pretend that being "balanced" makes 4e good by itself when it fails at pretty much every other aspect of game design.

>>53427275
>self fulfilling prophecy post

Nice try.

>>53427337
Oh hush, we let you have your containment thread, you should be able to handle some bantz in return for the favor.

>>53427409
That's not "top bantz", mate, that's just being wrong and actively trying to derail a thread.

>>53427447
>4rries can't handle the bantz

Typical

>>53387770
>What's your favorite Paragon Path?
Pit Fighter before Mearls got his greasy hands on it was nice.

>>53427500
Alright, here's your (You), thanks for bumping the thread.

>>53427677
>thanks for bumping the thread.

You sure need it. Check out the last few /4eg/ threads on 4plebs. They died at 148 posts, 187 posts, 271 posts, 3 posts (lol) and there's one that made it to 343, which is the only recent one I can find that hit bump limit. Whereas /pfg/ and /5eg/ *regularly* hit bump limit, in fact I don't think they ever fail to.

4e is a dead game. It's time to admit it.

>>53427409
I gave you a you, what more did you want?

>>53401274
The Stars were less evil and more horrifyingly amoral.
Caiphon, for example, is a being of pure knowledge. No, your mind can't handle it all without breaking, but that isn't Caiphon's concern. He just wants to teach you the secrets of all things.
Or Gibbeth who is just an almost mindless everchanging thing that exudes madness. It doesn't have enough awareness to be evil, but it is still horrifyingly dangerous.

>>53387770
I think I've had the most fun with Umbral Cabalist recently.

>Level 11, gain a +(CON mod) bonus to any NAD when bloodied, can change it each time you get bloodied
>Retrain an enemy that's cursed on AP> Useful, but pretty ho-hum.
>Level 16, when taking damage from any typed damage, gain Resist 10 to it for the encounter. Very handy

>Level 11 single target stun encounter
>Level 12 "No I;m not dominated, also get curse'd"

The daily is pretty great though. Meh damage with an Area Burst 1, but the Pact is where it gets great.

>Pact Boon: One creature within 5 squares or affected by your Curse makes a basic attack against a target of your choice as a free action

This is fucking bonkers. Especially if you have a solo with plenty of minions in reach. Pop one minion and just keep triggering that boon. This gets more hilarious when you pair it with Relentless Curse so you can keep re-cursing when they die and trap the solo into beating his minions to death until he runs out of minions.

Played him as a half-insane(in the lol I'm so wacky that usually gets hated) hobo with implied dementia as a result of making so many pacts with powerful beings(good ol vestige pact). Eventually learned to spread that insanity to his allies and enemies to get them to kill each other better(Sorcerer-King is a great Leader-y pact to twofold Pact into), then became a Lich because he didn't feel like dying quite yet.

Eventually the whole campaign ended in us beating up Vecna and Orcus, and then my Warlock ascended to become Vecna's replacement and started antagonizing the Raven Queen for no other reason than he thinks it's part of his job.

>>53427576
explain to a newbie what happened?

goddamn mearls

Trying to make a level 6 character that can summon as many minions as possible. >Summoner Wizard/Artificer Hybrid
>Took all summoning powers possible
>Bought Book of Undeniable Fire and Summoners Tome to get four more potential summons.
>Took artificer ability to recharge an item's Daily, to be able to re-summon from one of the tomes.
>Summoning focused feats plus Arcane Familiar (Summoner Homunculus for bonus defense and free Unseen Servant ritual)
>Bought Unseen Servants Hand for an extra Unseen Servant.

Trying to avoid taking Shaman hybrid feat. DM won't allow Demonbound. Anything else I missed?

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>>53427576
>Serves him right, he trusted a Merals!

>>53428500
Is Demounbound that great?

Elemental Priest is not bad, though its technically a conjuration, not a summons. Every encounter, the elemental gives +1 to defenses the whole encounter, and with a feat, Warding Elemental, it gives Resist 5 all.

>>53428530
>>53428500
Elemental Priest is a theme, if that wasn't clear.

>>53428323
Replace the second sentence of the feature
with the following text: “Your fighter or pit fighter
weapon attacks deal extra damage equal to your Wisdom modifier.” This update limits high Wisdom characters from multiclassing into this paragon path to gain a high damage bonus.

>>53428658
It also fucked opportunity attacks for Fighter.

>>53428733
Can you explain?

>>53428765
Well, it didn't fuck them, what it did was deny the fighter's opportunity attacks the benefit of this feature, because it no longer applied to melee basic attacks. Those are incredibly important for Fighters.

>>53428785
Oh I see. Are grappling fighters any good? Ever since the battlerager nerf, I have thought of them as the sexiest fighter variant.

Grappling Strike looks like a workable way to get an at will for AoOs, though its ironic that fighters don't have many options for MBAs while a lot of less down to earth ones do.

>>53428829
Grappling Fighter is probably one of my favorite, if only because grabbing a beefy fucker and dragging him away is a good way of getting him to focus on you.

Is it better to work wit the CBLoader or just dl all the books and erratas?

"Work" meaning gathering all info possible to start working on a homebrew.

>>53429103
Excepting learn the rules, I can't imagine why it'd be easier to do anything with the books, really.

>>53429103
Don't bother with the books, it's a chore. Get Rules Compendium from essentials and build characters with CBLoader. If you want context or fluff surrounding and item/power etc, then dl that book.

>>53429484
>>53429309
There's also funin.space

>>53428530
Demonbound gives you an okay early level summon, but it's a legendary thing and the DM doesn't want that.

Elemental Priest seems like a decent theme, and I'd be okay with the conjurations, but I want to be able to move my creatures.

>>53429524
That too. Rules Comp. CBLoader and funin.space are all I use anymore, unless I want to read fluff.

Anyone know of any official fluff that explains what ghosts are? When a living thing dies, it's soul goes to the Shadowfell. From there, it's either claimed by the Astral Sea or the Elemental Chaos. If it's not claimed, or is claimed personally by the Raven Queen, it remains in the Shadowfell. If a necromancer creates an undead and has no use for it anymore, it ends up in the Shadowfell (I don't know if this is every explained either).

So what are ghosts? For the amount of ghosts in 4e, there's no way they're all brought to the Mortal World by necromancers.

>>53429772
Great question, there was a free document released at or right before the beginning of 4e that explained much of the fluff. Essentially none of this info was reprinted in its current form, though some of it is alluded to. But basically it talks about how some undead have an animus (wraith/specter), a body only (zombie/skeleton), a body and an animus (ghoul/wight/typical mummy), an animus and a soul (ghost), or all 3 (vampire, lich, death knight).

As far as how they actually get to the mortal world, it can be portals from the Shadowfell when spooky shit happens or all sorts of hazily defined things.

>>53429857
Interesting, link? So what would a shaman "spirit" be, soul without animus?

I forgot about portals. I guess that's where the majority of the supernatural would come from.

>>53429772
I don't think you're quite right about soul fluff. IIRC, if a soul isn't directly claimed by a deity (idk about primordials) then it passes through the Raven Queen's domain in the Shadowfell and then into the 'beyond', according to the Manual of the Planes.

>>53424579
The level difference has little to do with the scope of lethality or accuracy. It has to do with the design aspect. Monsters have a cost equal to their XP, and encounter design takes that budget into account to build an encounter appropriate for the PCs, based on if you want to make it a average, hard or easy encounter. You might have less overall monsters than an encounter built to PC code by using a few higher level monsters, but that allows you to build the encounter with those monsters in mind, making them the key threat and sprinkling in some grunts to help.

inverse is the same. Sure, they might be smashing a monster two or three levels lower than them with relative easy, but there's lots of them now since they cost less to add to the fight.

Level design and encounter building in 4e is intricate, and with lots of variances outside of stats. Simply looking at defense and attack values ignores unit strength as a whole. Much like PCs, monsters can't win a fight all on their own. Despite the name, Solo does not mean the monster is suppose to be ran solo against a competent group. They still need some minions or standards to help make the fight interesting.

This is discounting how special terrain or traps can also spend the XP budget, and how monsters and players, despite tactical application, have a different standard by which they should be used. Everything links, but not in just the numbers.

>>53430514
I'd doubt that primal spirits fit into that scheme... except that according to the Demonicon, even demons have an animus and sometimes a soul, with the rare ensouled demons usually having once been a mortal or immortal corrupted into a demon, and them having more sophisticated plans.

But yeah, 4e's primal spirits are very hazily defined. One might think that there's some relation between them and fey (see hamadryads, and see 3e spirits of the land, which are fey), but archfey are their own thing totally, so I don't really understand.

>>53429772
Ghosts are tortured souls, or souls bound to a location for a purpose predetermined in life. They exist due to a goal or trauma that has yet been resolved, and often go on to their final journey when they are either exorcised or when they complete whatever it is that is holding them down. Some Ghosts occur naturally in this regard, a spirit unable to leave for some reason yet unresolved in their life, but not having the animus to sustain their soul.

MM1 and Open Grave where the sources I used for this.

>>53430514
>>53433767
Primal spirits are less souls, and more the consciousness and will of the natural plane. Their intangibility lent to the name that mortals understand, but it is likely not the whole that describes them in full. They exist because the natural world and the forces of creation and destruction coexist. The gods and others cannot get rid of them without likely doing immeasurable harm to the natural world itself. Most of the spirits flow in a stream of this primal energy, manifesting in other shapes when need arises. Primal Powers has more information on the Spirits proper, though the concept is mostly just fluff that can easily be interchanged at will. None of the Spirits have strict ties to any of the mechanical benefits of the Primal power source outside of name, so DMs are free to remove and add as they like.

Shaman's call forth their Spirit Companion from the above mentioned stream. It might be a strict spirit, one of many, or something different from other shaman's entirely in how it forms. Like much of the Primal Spirits, their fluff is mutable, the end result being a spirit that manifests with enough solidarity to interact with the physical world at the Shaman's behest. Whether they are simple beasts with enough intelligence to perceive what the Shaman wants of them, or something far more wise than one can truly understand, is up to the Shaman and the DM to determine.

Shamans are probably my favorite leaders after the Bards, maybe tied with the Ardents. I love their flavor and how versatile they can be - besides, the fact that their Spirit Companion is never truly defined opens up a lot of possibilities (a favorite of mine is that the Spirit Companion is their stillborn sibiling).

>>53429772
I imagine they never left the mortal plane, you know, like actual ghosts

I honestly really like the openendedness of 4e in those regards, since you can change the meaning of a thing to suit the story.

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>>53436784
>(a favorite of mine is that the Spirit Companion is their stillborn sibiling).

Is there a hack to make this game playable already? I mean something to speed up combat. This edition had so much potential but was ruined by excessive monster HP and too many power choices for players.

>>53440040
Use MM3 math for monsters.

Understand the game and grow some balls so you don't take 10 minutes to decide.

Use the simplified Essentials classes for babbies who can't do the above..

Play Strike!

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>>53440040
For quicker and lighter combat but still very much in 4e style, you could try Strike RPG, which had its general linked in this thread.
It's a bit 404'd right now, but that's what what archives are for.

You could make everybody play essentials.

>>53440077
What I love about 4th edition are interesting classes, similiar to MMORPG instead of gygaxian ones. How are the classes in Strike RPG?

>>53440203
Also I would prefer something compatible with 4e so I could use its' awesome supplements like Dark Sun, Shadowfell.

I played essentials and it was bloated with too many player choices in combat and too high monster hp.

>>53440203
Classes are very 4e-like.

>>53440237

>Also I would prefer something compatible with 4e so I could use its' awesome supplements like Dark Sun, Shadowfell.

Settings are easy to convert, but fair point, there's a buncha mechanical content in there that's pretty cool and could be a hassle if you want them 1:1.

>I played essentials and it was bloated with too many player choices in combat and too high monster hp.

How is that even possible

Most essentials classes have like 3 things to pick from at most.

>>53440279
>Most essentials classes have like 3 things to pick from at most.

Uh, I don't even want to know how bad vanilla 4e is.

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>>53440237
>I played essentials and it was bloated with too many player choices in combat and too high monster hp.
>essentials classes having too many combat choices
I...I don't think 4e is for you. I'm not even sure if D&D is for you

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>>53440203
Pic related. An example of one of the 10 core classes and 5 core roles. You pick both a class and a role.

>>53440237
Mechanically compatible, directly? Your only option is 4e. Everything else needs some form of conversion.

Essentials being overly complicated? I am not sure what to say, there. Are you sure you're trying to play the correct game? Is anybody even capable of playing things more advanced than checkers? Unless you're playing like an Essentials Mage or Druid, they're decently simple classes.

>>53440310
Essentials classes are simpler. Or are you implying 3 things at most is a lot?

>>53440310
At epic you have somewhere in the ballpark of 12 powers IIRC.

Everyone agrees that's a bit to much.

>>53440324
My stupid players discussed every combat turn for 10 minutes.

I like old-school D&D (B/X) with super fast combat, but also 4e classes.
>>53440329
Interesting. How much hp does goblin have in Strike?

>>53440395
4e classes are designed to enable complex combat. If your pcs can't handle making quick decisions form a selection of options, I don't see your two desires working out

>>53440395
If only you were here a few hours ago to bump strike general, instead of discussing yet more Strike in 4e.

A Standard monster has HP equal to 6 + (2*level), and monsters range level 2-10.
Goon-class monsters are equal to 1/2 of a standard, and rather than flat HP they have "HP thresholds", which is equal to 4 (or 5, if the PCs are level 5+). If they take 2 hits total, or a single hit >the threshold, they die.
Stooges are 1/4 of a standard and die to any damage. They also are very limited in powerset and damage output.
Elites are 2x Standard Monster, and Champions are 4x. They have their own buffs beyond that.

So a goblin has however much HP as would be appropriate. Are goblins level 2 stooges? Level 3 standards? Level 10 Champions? I dunno. Up to you.
The sample bestiary is mostly very generic, naming things after their jobs/role rather than any fluff (defenders, crowd control, blaster, heckler, packmaster...) but it gives rules on how to make your own monsters, including "roughly doing it" and doing it with math.


Do your players like 4e-style classes?
Do you need them, as a GM? Old-school DnD can have you doing plenty of stuff, it's just looser in rules.
But I guess you want firm mechanical rules to work with that both support tactical complex combat and are fast? Be hard to find - tactical complexity usually demands a slowdown as people think and actually use that complexity.

>>53440337
What? When arriving at epic, the player should be veteran enough to handle that. 12 is the number of spells of a 3.x cleric at level 1! Maybe modern D&D isn't for you, and that's ok. Try B/X or BECMI or AD&D

>>53440040
MM3/MV/CC era 4e is crazily more deadly. I've never had problems with HP rates after that.

Also, try using the DMG encounter guidelines to some degree.

Does the new-math really change monster HP much?
I skip around to random MM1 stuff and use the mm3 business card HP calcs and except on like solos, everything is within a few numbers of correct. 86 vs 84, what kinda stuff. In some cases, HP actually goes up.

Mostly what I see it changing is buffing everything's damage a little bit. A quick example, using Githzerai (Because I like them)

MM1 Githzerai Cenobite, Level 11 Soldier
Old -> New

HP: 108 -> 112
AC: 27 -> 27
NAD: Fort 22, Ref/Will 23 -> All 23
ATK: +17 to +19 (on unarmed strike)
Unarmed Strike Avg: 12 -> 19 damage

Is it just a poor example, or what? IIRC at one point I read that MM1 math appears to use like 3 different "formula" as they changed how they did it several times. Is that true?

And then of course monster HP goes up by ~8 each level, while (I believe) PC damage output lags slightly behind, eventually splitting up enough that monsters take, say, 4 average hits rather than 3 to kill. Is that also correct?

>>53440895
I've always been under the impression that monsters are supposed to be 4 htk, 4 minions = 1 monster, 1 solo = 4 monsters (worth 5x as much as a normal one since it takes much longer to kill).

The main distinction defensively is that elite/solo templates don't add to defenses anymore

>>53440969
Aye, it's 4. I forgot the actual numbers.

This is where I got that info, in a years-old blog post: http://blogofholding.com/?p=782
He says the design assumption is 4 successful hits, but it eventually splits to 6, and then 7. This is because HP outscales PC damage.

But I'm asking if it's correct, here. There are some counterpoints in the comments such as crit hits and encounter powers, which he also responds to, and says not even those scale hard enough to keep it at 4.

But how's it all hold up in reality, and with more experience with the system?

>>53441062
He actually has good points.

The main problem is not that monster HP scales that much, but that there are so many more fiddly bits that the difference between an uber PC and, say, a vampire can't be closed up so easily. He is, as you say, ignoring encounters/etc.

>>53441062
The counterpoints strike me as much more convincing than the original points. The bit about monster HP being frontloaded strikes me as particularly interesting.

>>53440040
>Buy Dungeon Delves.
>Play each encounter until you understand the game.
>???
>Profit.

Seriously, playing is the hack. If you don't do it, you won't ever understand and figure out how to wrap your head around.

A table not paying attention and getting caught up each time a player takes a turn is its own problem independent of the system. If your players really want to play 4e, they need to learn what their shit does. If that means a few weeks fiddling around with prefab to get use to the crunch so you can add some fluff, that's what you do.

>>53431536
You're probably right, I was going off memory.
>>53436043
>Ghosts occur naturally in this regard
Do you remember which book this was in? I've read many times the fluff about "unfinished business" but never read anything about them naturally forming. Not doubting you, I just want to find the text.
>>53429857
I found which book you were referring too, it's called "Wizards Presents: Worlds and Monsters" and it's a collection of essays about the lore in (the then soon-to-be released) 4e. It was released along side a book about classes and races, they both seem fun. I can't find a PDF of either of them, does anyone have them by chance?

>>53441512
>Do you remember which book this was in?
Read the post again.

>>53441531
>MM1 and Open Grave where the sources I used for this.
Do you remember which book this was in?

>>53440895
Yeah the new math makes a noticeable difference.

>>53441512
https://www.4shared.com/office/VZq5XUfG/DD_4th_Edition_Wizards_Present.html

>>53441619
Thanks anon

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>>53441580

>>53441676
I'm confused at your confusion. I want to find the fluff piece about ghosts naturally forming, do you remember if it was MM1 or Open Grave? Is it mentioned in both?

Am I so retarded that I don't realize that I'm being retarded?

>>53441720
You ask which book when all sources were provided immediately in the post discussing it, so yes, I'd say you are. I can't read them for you any more than I already have, Anon.

So what front line dudes do you like the best -- soldiers, brutes, or skirmishers?

>>53444248
Brutes. It is not fun to miss attacks.

>>53444370
I think that's my biggest problem with 4e. If you're in a big group and you roll poorly a few times in a row, it gets boring.

>>53444726
That element's kinda universal, though. Well, unless you play 3e or AD&D and just pick spells that don't really allow saves, just fuck everyone over.

I think the reason I almost never see people playing pure casters in 3e and 5e anymore is the combination of your best stuff only getting 1-2 uses a day and having a good chance of being a waste of a turn.

>>53444370
Yeah, I like the math on brutes a lot. IDEALLY, I'd like to reserve soldiers for rare, and especially imposing, kinds of foes.

>>53444726
>>53444979
But then improve hit for 80% base, scaling HP to keep the 4 hits-to-kill, 3 rounds-to-kill as said in the Wizards Presents books?

>>53445132
Where does it explain that in the book?

>>53445280
Wizards Presents: Worlds & Monsters, pg 86:
>the typical monster has a lifespan of 3 to 5 rounds

I can't find the "60% hit chance per design" in either the books, altough that is considered a known fact ( http://diceofdoom.com/blog/2010/04/understanding-the-maths-behind-4e-dnd-combat/ ) with a simple Google.

With this, we could increase the hit chance to 80% by upscaling HP while maintaining the 3~5 round survivability, but making the game less about missing. This could, however, fuck up "+hit" feats, powers and classes.

>>53445513
Hmmm, do you know off hand what the average to hit progression of a 4e char is?

>>53445991
Had to dig through history here, gentleman. Call me Indiana.

https://web.archive.org/web/20150923053410/http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/2557916

>>53446216
Ah I see, thanks.

To be fair, monsters are usually relatively boring compared to PCs; they also lack feats, warlords (usually), etc. The article also >>53445513 points out these complication aren't intrinsically a bad thing.

By the time a PC takes a -4 to -7, you gotta admit he has probably gotten very sweet abilities that the monster, whose nonexistent feats have been sunk into epic defense, versatile expertise, etc. probably has a very hard time keeping up.

I was at a hobbie shop the other day and they had boxes of unopened 4e cards. They were some sort of DM tool, like things you could throw into an encounter or effects for your players or something. I had never heard of them before. Has anyone used them?

>>53447379
Fortune Cards?

>>53447477
Yeah, that must be them. I forgotten almost everything about them other than they could be used in game. Looking into them a little bit, they seem kind of neat. Has anyone used them before?

>>53419455
Is there any way to pull it off with Ruthless Ruffian, or will I just have to run it with Brutal Scoundrel?

>>53448376
Probably not. You'll need to go with Brutal Scoundrel, but I prefer Cunning Sneak anyway.

>>53447686
We tried, but found it added a layer to the game that bogged down more than assisted. If they were more interwoven into the game as a whole they might be real neat, but as an extra, they didn't work for us. I do suggest giving them a go if you're table is interested in them though. You won't know if they're to your liking without trying after all.

>>53448707
I remember done sort of event cards posted here a while back for 4e. If this thread or another /4eg/ are up by the time i get to my computer, ill see if I can find where I saved them.

Anyone interested in a new 4e Dark Sun game this Sunday?