40K Transports

>>53354928
>So guys, what unit's statline do we put up do demonstrate how transports have changed overall
>it'll need to be something ubiquitous, something most players either own or have fought against multiple times
>A Rhino?
>A Trukk?
>No you idiots, obviously a Harlequin Starweaver! Everyone is familiar with the starweaver's iconic statline!

>ALL TRANSPORTS ARE NOW ASSAULT TRANSPORTS
PRAISE THE LORD OF MANKIND

File: New40kTransportsStarweaverCrop.jpg (24KB, 1200x172px) Image search: [Google]

24KB, 1200x172px

>T5

What's the logic when they say the vehicle charges first absorbing overwatch when you can just fire overwatch again?

>>53354997
Because if it makes it into combat they can't fire overwatch again.

>>53354997
If the charge is succesful the enemy unit is engaged and can't overwatch

>>53354972
The sad thing is that they are still thougher than before.

>>53354997
In 7ed the order was
>Declare charge, fire overwatch, declare charge, fire overwatch
>Roll charge, move chargers, roll charge, move chargers
Now it's
>Declare charge, fire overwatch, roll charge, move chargers, declare charge, fire overwatch, roll charge, move chargers

So as units can't fire overwatch when they're locked in combat, if your trukk makes its charge your boyz can charge unimpeded.

>>53354959
They not get charge bonuses unless it's assault or open topped though.

>>53354997

Units engaged in combat cannot overwatch, and the first charge fully resolves before the second begins.

>>53355022
Most players will gladly trade some melee prowess for getting their CC units across the table safely and reliably

>>53354972
so AV10 is now T5 Sv4+

is that better or worse?

>>53355022
Source for this? It's not stated in the article.

>Being inside an exploding vehicle is still bad news. Models inside a wrecked Transport will now die on the roll of a 1
This could be nasty. Who's looking forward to their Chapter Master dieing to what used to be a S4 AP- wound?

>>53355022
>>53355060
>>53355073
Fuck I meant *may not.

>>53355072
Reminder that it was also open-topped. It'll vary, I'm pretty sure this is going to be one of the most fragile transports in the game. Trukks will probably at least have an extra wound.

>>53355072
About the same against S4/5 weapons, worse against S<3 weapons and slightly better against higher strength weapons. But it also has 6 wounds so those Damage 1 rifles are going to have to chip away at it a bit rather than needing two successful armour pen rolls.

File: 1281391185927.jpg (79KB, 350x218px) Image search: [Google]

79KB, 350x218px

>>53354950

kek'd

File: 1490276549726.jpg (10KB, 123x169px) Image search: [Google]

10KB, 123x169px

>>53354950

>>53354928
Why is no one talking about only being able to disembark at the beginning of the movement phase. This is terrible. It will make it very very difficult for your squads to reach combat now. Since if you move a transport up with a decent assault unit inside, your opponent will just move his shit away in his turn befor you disembark at the beginning of your next.

>>53355089

This is a good thing, it means king pimp can no longer roll up in his kitchen foil transport disregarding the fact the thing has erupted like a fucking firework factory and one of the roll bars has punctured his head like a ripe melon.

>Oh what's that? The vehicle I was travelling in exploded in a enormous explosion, I am engulfed in chemical fire and have to fight my way out of the twisted wreckage? lol who cares XD

>>53355185

It's miniscule compared to not being to charge after disembarking.

File: hqdefault.jpg (12KB, 480x360px) Image search: [Google]

12KB, 480x360px

>There are people who still don't believe 8th is saving 40k

>>53355185
Yeah, but now transports have at least up to 16" movement, and the deployment gap is not 18" instead of 24". It's pretty much the same as before, just now instead of your troops sitting out in the open waiting to charge they're sitting in their transport. It'd be more useful if they gave us a rhino's statline, but suppose it has movement 12

7ed:
Rhino moves 6", disembark to 12", run 3, you're 9" from enemy deployment line, enemy backs off 6", you move forwards 6", 9" charge

8ed
Move 12, run 3, you're now 3" away from the enemy's deployment line. Their turn they move 6" back, your turn you disembark, move 6" forwards, 3" charge

As long as the rhino has movement more than 6, transports are better now for transporting assault units.

>>53354972
Well, it is an Elder vehicle.

>>53355224
There are people who believe they and their children should go to school/work when they carry infectious illnesses.

>>53355209
I'm saying it doest matter if my guys can assault after disembarking, why would you let them be close enough to assault after disembarking if you knew my transport had guys intending to do thatZ

>I move my transport up and shoot a little. Can't disembark because moved.
>you know that I've got some decent assault stuff in there. You move your guys to make charges a really risky dice roll if they were to disembark at that spot.

do I disembark and have a high likelihood of failing my charges, or do I try to get the transport to tough it out one more turn by moving it again with my guys inside?

>>53355185
Considering you'll disembark off the transport and still have your move its not that big of a loss. They were going to be moving away from your transport before this anyway, now they just can't also spray the rhino's disembarked units who had to stand there and glare at the shooting squad they planned to assault. If they give a lot of assault units a better mv value or let you run then assault chopping people from a cheap transport is back on the menu.

>>53355254
>>53355209
Nm y'all are right, I somehow glazed over the moving after disembarking. I thought the disembark was the infantry units move.

Things just keep getting better and better for my gay knights! inb4 they gut the codex of more of their fun toys again like in 7e

>>53355277
Don't do that. If you tried that strategy out in 7ed it would work even worse, as if you moved and shot you wouldn't be able to disembark because you're in the shooting phase, meaning you'd still have to wait a turn to disembark and then you'd have to wait another turn to charge.
If transports are the same movement as they currently are it actually changes nothing in terms of speed, and if they're faster, it's an objective buff as long as you play correctly.

File: 40kFFTyranidsSwarmlord[1].jpg (33KB, 1200x215px) Image search: [Google]

33KB, 1200x215px

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/21/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-tyranids/

>>53355324
On the tabletop, Tyranids have had their ups and downs. Their most recent iteration has struggled to keep pace with some of the more powerful armies, and for many Tyranids players, the Winged Hive Tyrant with dual devourers has been the unit carrying all the weight of the faction on his back (its wings must be pretty tired!). I am here to tell you, that all of that changes in the new edition.

I’d be remiss if I didn’t start out with my all time favourite Tyranid unit: the Swarmlord. He is an absolute beast now, as he should be! With a Toughness value of 6, 12 Wounds, a 3+ save and a 5+ invulnerable save (increased to a 4+ invulnerable save in melee) he is not easily taken down. This can be further enhanced by casting Catalyst on him (and did I mention he’s a potent Psyker, too?) to give him a 5+ save vs Wounds suffered.

But it’s not just defence, oh no, Mr. Swarmlord brings the pain in combat as well. With a base of Strength of 7, 8 attacks, hitting on a 2+, with an AP value of -3 and D6 damage a pop, the Swarmlord can lay low even Titanic units in a single round of combat. Truly a fearsome adversary.

However, his ability that I have found to be most useful is Hive Commander, which allows a friendly unit to move in the Shooting phase. This is incredibly powerful for the sudden added mobility. For Hormagants, with their blisteringly quick Movement of 8″, this means a potential 16″ move before attempting a charge. Or he could simply use it on himself and move up to 18″…

>>53355324
>7 str 8 attacks at ws 2+
holy moly
>3+ sv
poop

>>53355364
Genestealers, who are the iconic Tyranid unit in my eyes, are absolutely lethal. Not only are they incredibly fast with an 8″ Move themselves, they can also charge after advancing. With their shiny new 5+ invulnerable save, they’re also hardy, and I often cast Catalyst on them too, because I am a mean, mean man.

But to really crank the power up to 11 with Genestealers, take them in units of 10 or more to trigger their Flurry of Claws special rule, bumping them up to 4 Attacks each. Combo this with the Broodlord (who is also, utterly deadly in melee) to also give them a +1 to hit in the Fight phase. That means a full unit of 20 has 80 Attacks hitting on a 2+. With their Rending Claws – which bump up to AP -4 on a 6 to wound – very few units in the game can withstand a full strength Genestealer charge!

There’s so much to be happy about as a Tyranid player it is hard to cover it all. But we have a few more tidbits for you all before we close this article.

For one, due to the changes in the way damage works, medium sized Tyranids are much more enjoyable to play. A Tyranid Warrior with 3 Wounds and a Toughness value of 4 is so much more durable than he was, that it’s incredible. I’ve been using them as midfield Synapse providers who are both good with close range shooting and in melee.

And Synapse, hmm, what type of benefit does that provide? Nothing less than immunity to morale for friendly Tyranids units within range. Bring on the hordes of little gribblies!

And lastly, just because I can’t help myself: I think Pyrovores may be one of the most improved units in the new edition, and a unit of them in a Tyrannocyte has won me many a game!

File: top notch.jpg (66KB, 450x600px) Image search: [Google]

66KB, 450x600px

>>53355381
> own 40-something genstealers adn 2 broodlords
AWWW SHIT NIGGA

>>53355364
>move 18 inches
>assult a knight
>go first, remove all 24 wounds in one turn
Is the swarmlord the new Fabius Bile?

>>53355410
I hope next we get "Faction Focus: Fabius Bile"

File: vod.jpg (77KB, 600x777px) Image search: [Google]

77KB, 600x777px

>>53355324
is reece reecius?

>>53355378
But he has a 5+ invuln wchich can be taken in addition to his normal save, and can give himself a 5+ fnp. And 7 str 8 2+ attacks with d6 damage each means he eats imperial knights for breakfast.

>>53355422
more like faggot focus

>>53355381
>genestealers have an 8" mv and a 5++ now
>synapse still prevents any and all morale problems
>catalyst is still in and we can now choose psychic powers based on an earlier faq
Holy god in heaven look at all this. The swarmlord moves 9" and could kill a knight in a single round of fighting if he arrives in good health. It'll be lethal fucking combat since both can deal absurd damage but goddamn is that a nice solution to vehicles.

>>53355451
>Invuln saves can be made with armour saves
Did I miss this?

>>53355451
They are not taken in addition however the fnp is nice.

>>53355398
i like they discourage MSU with big unit buffs

although it might be that people would naturally gravitate towards big units due to new detachments

>>53355451
>hits on 2's, woumdns on 4s 5++ knight save, D6 wounds

thats
>=7*5/6*1/2*2/3*3.5
or
>6.805555556
per turn, farm from good vs knights

>straight up invulnerable against morale
honestly surprised

>>53355510
>5++ knight save

It's only vs ranged. Still it's around 8,5 wounds, which means that while being able to finish a Knight it's not able to go one on one against it.

Which is good considering that Knights are 23 PL while the swarmlord is 15 while also having army buff

>>53355549
Fair. i think i wilk just drown a knight in a billion genestelers. 3 attacks and 6 dam will mean nothing when i can hit will 80 attacks at 2+, wounding on 6's

File: fabius_bile_by_slaaneshg-dah3b51.jpg (324KB, 1024x1501px) Image search: [Google]

324KB, 1024x1501px

>>53355422
>"Fabious Bile has always been a fearsome foe for the enemies of the CSM and we wanted to preserve that same level of fear when the opponent sees you pull out THE Fabulous Bill. So we kept the instant death special rule exactly the way it is on his datasheet. Futhermore when Fabious Bile successfully destroys a big model, such as an imperial knight, the wounds spill over and cause massive Battleshock penalties."

>>53355543

I imagine we'll see that nids have REALLY shitty leadership scores. So if you can take out the hivemind buff you'll see units vanishing all over the place.

>>53355609
oh yes, i think the basic nid LD used to be 5 but they buffed it to 6 in some more recent editions

i miss the times when synapse was really essential and it was a good idea to shoot the big uns

>>53355021
I really, really like this. I run 100+ gaunts backed by melee monsters and the old system was the bane of my existence

>>53355549
>>53355510
On the other hand a 4++ in melee for the swarmlord and the low number of attacks from the knight means that he's going to do

4/3*2/3*2/2*6= 5,33333 wounds to the swarmlord.

So the REALLY good thing is that while he will be probably losing, he's still able to go against it for some rounds.

More if you give him a Tyrant guard to soak wounds and do some damage with crushing claws.

>>53355637
ahh remember when hormagaunts had 12" charge due to leaping rule that you could buy on warriors too

>>53355645
I am assuming CC are goimng to be like PF, which is to day D3 dam, -1 to hit, so, assuming 3+ base to hit and 3 attacks, 2 guard hit 3 times, wound twice 5's to wound), no save so actualy 2d3 extra wound
bretty good

>>53355624

I wouldn't be surprised to see it drop back to 5. So losing a single nid has a good chance to spiral into losing 2-3 more to make up for all that time they spend being immune.

>>53355658
Yes and scything talons had interesting rules that made leaving a monster with its default loadout viable

>>53355645
So crushing claws are almost certainly going to be strx2 ap -3 d6 wounds right? With the powerfist deal of messing up your to hit roll? If so carnifexs will love eating up transports. Only rough part will be landraiders, since lascannons can do better damage against carnifexs.

>>53355601
He also has the special non formation of "Solo Black Crusade"

>>53355706
Since he's Emperor's Children wouldn't it be the Pink Parade?

>>53355688
i forgot, what's the rules?

>>53355272
>not constantly exposing yourself to disease to make your immune system strong enough to brush off the plague by age 20

>>53355693
D3 wounds on guards, D6 on 'fex is my guess

>>53355723
One set of talons, reroll 1s to hit
Two sets, reroll all failed hits

Was great for the monsters that had underwhelming weaponskill

>>53355721
https://youtu.be/sqFmt9XYeYo
11minute mark. It was a reference to this.

>>53355726
And then by age 22 you die because a hippie don't believe measles should be vaccinated against.

>>53355324
Quick, someone maths Guilliman v. Swarmlord.

File: oh my.png (24KB, 740x328px) Image search: [Google]

24KB, 740x328px

>>53355749
>TFW trigons hit on 3's most of the time with re-roll, posion gave then wound on 2's with re-rolls
oh my, such memories

>>53355771
No point, we dont know gillies weapons

File: 1486087652730.jpg (171KB, 800x800px) Image search: [Google]

171KB, 800x800px

>>53355091
> pulling shit out your ass for (you)s
Pic related

>>53355072
well considering it could be exploded by a heavy bolter previously id say it's better

>>53355426
Yeah

FLG seems to be a pretty big part of the recent connection between GW and fans. Different people have different opinions about the FLG guys and what they do, but I'm certainly grateful to them for being part of GW being better.

>>53355609
As it should be

I don't want my nids to be great at everything, I just want them to reflect the fluff and be good

It's sounding positive so far

>>53355185
this especialy with how much more dangerous it is to be in a transport when it gets destroyed
roll up in your landraider enemy lights it up like a candle and you chaptermaster and you land raider just died

>>53355846
It's much less dangerous for most units. Wyches for example were mainly bad because their exploding transport would kill half of them before they did anything.

Only models with 2+ armour or a lot of wounds are worse off. Land raiders will probably be tough enough that the terminators will have disembarked before they die at least.

>>53355760
Italy has passed a law that forces people to vaccinate now, and I think we might do it as well in France.
All the better imo, I'm so paranoid about this shit I checked immediately with my doc if my vaccines were good when I cam back after 2 years abroad studying.

Since these are essentially 8th discussion thread while they last, odds of Mechanicum and Skitarii being one army?
Odds of Custodes and Sisters being one army?

>>53355896
To think we've gotten to the point of first world privilege that dumb people mean I have to get booster shots if I ever want to visit the states.

>>53355929
>Mechanicum and Skitarii
All but certain I'd say, they're treated as the same on the new fluff pages (and lets be honest, they SHOULD be the same army!)

>Custodes and Sisters
I'd be very surprised if this happened, no reason I can see for it (other lack of available units)

>>53355929

near 100%, currently we (admech) cannot use any of the universal detachments. Thus we will have to meld the Cult and Skitarii together and just get codex admech.

>>53356007
>I'd be very surprised if this happened, no reason I can see for it (other lack of available units)

I could see an argument for it, though it would be a bit of a change.

Call it 'Guardians of the Throne' and put SOB, Sisters and Sisters of Silence in the same army.

As the SOB have most of their convents on Terra itself.

>>53356007
I mean, Sisters of Silence and Custodes are one faction in Horus Heresy so I could see it

>>53355224
I know that 8th is saving us from 7th. I'm not sure if it's going to be enough. Too much comes down to execution, and I don't think GW has the skills to do a halfway decent job at any design anymore. I'm willing to be proven wrong when it releases though.

File: warmth_4__doing_it_wrong__by_karooz-d423xlp.jpg (158KB, 1024x576px) Image search: [Google]

158KB, 1024x576px

>>53355929
I think Mechanicum and Skitarii would make sense to have the same keywords so they can work together better than with other Imperium shit.

>Custodes and Sisters
Sisters of silence? I don't know enough about their structure, but it would make sense if Custodes and SoS where lumped in with Assassins and Inquisitors with a key word like 'Agent'. This way you can make it easy to ally agents with other imperial forces.

>>53356068
GIRLS CAN'T LOVE GIRLS
MODS HELP

>>53356049
so far, if we only take what the guys say in faction focus, regardless of how the armies will work with the new rules, eldar and tau are still op, nids and DEldars are still going to suck

>>53356007
>>53356041
>>53356048

>Talons of the Emperor keyword

Solved. Next question?

>>53356216
What is love?

>>53356237
And can it bloom on the battlefield?

>>53356237
a miserable pile of secret

File: fishy.jpg (22KB, 540x304px) Image search: [Google]

22KB, 540x304px

>>53354959
But you cant disembark after move so it doesnt really benefit the charge. Melee cucks got played again.

>mfw i play exclusively Tau

>>53356237

Baby don't hurt me
Don't hurt me
No more

>>53356244

Guilliman and Yvraine are going to be a recurring thing, so I would say yes. Next question?

>>53356278
Will we ever get plastic sisters?

Will we ever move out of these basements?

>>53356287

You did get plastic sisters of silence haha fuck you.

You will move out of your basement when you feel motivated enough to actually get a career just to fund all these new models GW is about to shit down your throat. Next question?

>>53356275
Read the thread, it's a safe bet that transports will universally have more than 6" movement, which does actually make them faster than before, you just spend the turn sitting in the transport instead of sitting in the open.
And who knows, maybe there'll be a special rule where you can disembark after movement with some transports, essentially turning them back into dedicated assault vehicles.

Sweet. my devilfishes finally get some use.

>>53355680
Skaven are average 4 in AOS and they are your equivalent faction.

>>53356237
Swarmy don't charge me
Don't charge me
No more

File: 1426382042371.png (882KB, 525x719px) Image search: [Google]

882KB, 525x719px

>>53354950

File: gundam_unpainted.jpg (82KB, 730x1095px) Image search: [Google]

82KB, 730x1095px

Hay guise, how would you feel if 8th edition took a page from the Gundam book and introduced plastic multicolor models where the parts have correct colors built in the material? So that your army actually looks right (though not terribly fancy) even without painting it? It seems like removing the mandatory work of painting would be a great way to gateway newbies in.

File: shut your stupid face.png (1MB, 680x1291px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 680x1291px

>>53356458
>there are people right now that want prepainted miniatures

may this hobby isn't for you

>>53356458
Define the correct colours, because there's no such thing afaik

>>53356458
Why do you need to ask this? You know the answer, you're just trying to get us riled up about 6-year olds in the hobby.

>>53354959
GET YOUR BIG DICK PANTS ON RHINO RUSH IS BACK

>>53356458

This works because bandai in their wizardy can put multiple colors of plastic on the same sprue and design it in such a way that all colored parts are separately assembled

Shit ain't gonna work for a space marine unless you make all the trim seperate from the pauldrons and chest piece

>>53356504
I'm just gonna build walls of rhinos in front of my army (if they're cost effective) until I'm in the midfield.

File: 6CHjlnm.jpg (287KB, 1024x857px) Image search: [Google]

287KB, 1024x857px

FYI this is how it looked last time they did that.

Do you want this again? Because this is what you'd get.

>>53356538
What the fuck is the weapon that the Smurf on the top right wields? That shit looks like one of those heretical knifeear missile launchers that Dark Reapers and the like use.

>>53356458
Explain how Space Marines would work without cramming one specific chapter (no doubt Ultramarines) down our throats?

>>53356458
>Build multicolor Ultramarine
>Have to slide tiny red eye piece inside helmet
>Aquilla is a separate piece from the chest in shitty gold plastic
>Shoulder pad trims separate
>Tiny black undersuit parts
>All this just to get an unshaded, un-highlighted Ultramarine

No thanks, it only really works for Gundam because they're so big.

>>53356626
That's what missile launchers used to look like.

>>53356458
My inner nerd rages at the thought of a specific color scheme (and thus chapter) being deemed the official default, but my inner lazy asshole approves of this idea.

>>53355929
They are probably going to have a common ADMECH keyword while having different SKITARII and CULT MECHANICUS ones.

>>53355950
>To think we've gotten to the point of first world privilege that dumb people mean I have to get booster shots if I ever want to visit the states.

As an American, I'm really sorry about that, too. Like, all the information is out there, every reliable doctor strongly supports vaccination, and yet some people (rich, white, dumb or the dumb, white people who envy the rich) still ruin it for everyone. Fucking measles, man. No one should be getting measles in the U.S.

>>53356390
Pearls before swine, anon, but I keked.

Considering the Starweaver is AV10 2HP Open-topped, which is about as fragile as you can get in terms of vehicles in the game, I'm guessing Rhinos will be T6 with 8 wounds 3+ save.

AV translates to toughness, HP to wounds and I'd imagine baseline vehicle save is a 3+ but Open-topped means it gets that -1, with big bulky shits like the land raider I'd expect to maybe have a 2+

>>53356845
Not just the US, in fairness, every dumb cunt across the Western world, whether they're hipsters or housewives, seems to know more than the accumulation of more than two hundred years of scientific research and discovery 'cos they read a few shitty articles online. And there are people in the developing world crying out for vaccines looking at these fuckers and asking, What the fuck went wrong with your schooling, numbskull? Rant over. Back to Transports in 40K, I'm stoked over my CSM Rhinos and what they're going to do in melee this edition. Can't fucking wait.

>>53355950
It's the varicella vaccine's fault, really. They never should have invented it. Herd immunity to shingles was better when everyone got chicken pox as a kid, and now idiots think that measles and whooping cough are only as bad as chicken pox(When they're much much worse.).

>>53357106
I'm also expecting there to be a benefit for previously open-topped transports that allows them to disembark models after moving or something, to still give them an assault benefit.

Also, Ork Trukks might actually want to pick up a 'ard Case for once, if it changes their 4+ save to a 3+

>>53356458
I really should get a gunpla like I've been meaning to and use it as a Tau Supremacy suit.

>>53356458
This only works because a lot of the trim on gundam models is a separate part and you still need to do a crapload of painting if you want it show accurate.

I just finished a Gundam Barbatos yesterday, the yellow trim on the shoulder pads is missing, the glowing pink markings are stickers, along with the dark grey and red on the hips and the backpack.

what are the charge limitations in 8th? If you advanced in movement phase you can't shoot or charge unless you have a rule for it?

>>53357454
I hope this is true, I like the 'nauts but haven't been able to justify them (Or orks in general) due to shit rules.

>>53357522
If you advanced, you can't charge. If you fell back from combat, you also can't charge. Special rules might get around those though.

>>53354928
>units can only disembark at the start of the movement phase

Wow, it's fucking nothing.

This basically means you'll never charge out of your vehicles even if you have the capability, as the enemy will just move the fuck away from your transport before you disembark anything.

Once again, the new edition will be shit.

>>53357567
>might
they confirmed it for genestealers. wish hormagaunts had the same thing

>>53357570
Charge with your transport, then disembark and charge with your unit next turn.

>>53357570
Did you never play 5th edition? That's how it was then and it worked great. Learn how to position.

Once again, you're disappointing.

>>53357570
Odds are they won't be moving far enough to outrun a speeding vehicle. Just get within 3 inches of them and then it doesn't matter if they back up.

Plus, open-topped transports will almost certainly have a special rule for getting around that.

File: cri everytiem.jpg (47KB, 369x368px) Image search: [Google]

47KB, 369x368px

>>53357454
>The writers of that insulting WD article were actually heralds of the greatest threat in 8th edition
>They desperately wanted to reveal it early, the true intention of the Gorkanaut
>GW wouldn't allow them to spoil the earliest concepts of 8th ed, their families were at stake
>With tears his in eyes Vetock wrote that entry muttering "It'll be okay, Ork players...*sniff*...you'll see..."

File: нарисовал-сам-сделал-сам-рисунки-IcyYmir'a-Warhammer-40000-2309560.jpg (518KB, 751x1121px) Image search: [Google]

518KB, 751x1121px

>>53357570
Having a T5+ vehicle soaking wounds for a more vulnerable squad is s till good.

Even a rhino will move faster than basic foot troops yet alone trukks and raiders plus it will be worth advancing with the transport instead of shooting so getting within range that even if your opponent backs up they will still get charged from less than six inches.

The need to be wary of assault troops inside a transport is its self a useful tool. Enemy on a control point you need? Roll up with a rhino full of zerkers. Ether you move off the point or you get a chain axe up the ass.

Combine re-rolling the charge range with command points and we'll be seeing plenty of early charges.

>>53357570
Units that disembark can move, shoot, and assault as normal.

>>53357958
it's good that we go from this 24" deployment distance and then 6" movement 6" or 12" this and that to more variable system

>>53354972
So it's like a bike but with transport capabilities?

>>53358159
so just like before?

>>53358159
but with a 4+ and 5 wounds
so about as much like a bike as a plague marine with a jumppack

>>53357198
I'm hoping daemon possesd vehicles in 8th ed are +1WS/-1BS and maybe a rule where they recover a wound if they killed one or more models in the fight phase.

I'm hoping the Tervigon acts as a transport and not as a method of summoning, personally, with the current fluff just being how you can jam 30 of the fuckers in there
And that it can be loaded with hormagaunts instead of termagants

>>53357539
i've one-shotted dozens of 'Nauts' with a suicide squad of melta Scions that its sad-- and usually the scions all live by the end of the game

>>53358424
A Tervigon becoming a transport for Gaunt-sized models would be awesome. Also makes their Armored Assault box make more sense.

File: 99120101063_NullRhino01.jpg (13KB, 289x298px) Image search: [Google]

13KB, 289x298px

FEAR ME FOR I AM THE BRINGER OF YOUR DOOM

Since we disembark from transports at the start of the movement phase, it could be possible to move the transport behind an enemy unit to block them from falling back. Alternatively, transports like the rhino or landraider could be positioned to act as LOS blocking cover for the assaulting unit to protect them from enemy fire when the enemy unit falls back.

>>53358403
I'd shake your hand if I could - that's an excellent idea. Recovering wounds would justify the points cost as it is.

>>53354928

The problem I can envisage with the new vehicle rules and transports is that people will use them like a battering ram every time.

ie. unit gets out, charges into X unit, transport has done it's job, since it's basically a monstrous creature now with shit stats it will just charge into Y unit and even if it can't hurt them they won't be able to hurt it and while falling back out of combat they will be unable to shoot and the vehicle will charge again and keep going until they or it are dead.

It's a bit silly really, you'll have empty rhinos just chasing around weapon teams and stuff.

>>53358424
It really has to function more as a transport anyway, as you need to set aside points for the summoning when listbuilding. It'll probably either be able to summon either hormagaunts or termagaunts, or it'll be super speedy or something so you can put your termies exactly where you want them.
Either way, it has to be different to how it is.

>>53358403
>NOM NOM NOM

>>53358562
I prefer that to the old version of tank shocking, where 10 tons of steel barreling down on your guys would result in them shuffling to the side and continuing business as normal.

Them getting caught in a constant retreat fits well with the panicked fleeing it represents.

>>53356458
>mandatory work

Its a hobby you nigger, not slave work. If you dont like it and think its some sort gulag torture then dont do it, I suck at it but I enjoy it anyway and tons of people do.

>>53358563
If they're a literal transport, then you still get your gaunts (probably) if the Terv dies before disembarking, but if it uses summoning rules you're shit out of luck...unless you've got multiple tervs/summoning methods. And I don't think they'll be introducing other methods of summoning shit, so it's better to just have it work just like a vehicle transport.
Or maybe they'll give a million ways to summon ripper swarms and that last point won't be as big a deal, who knows?

>>53358562
A rhino can't charge you if you charge it first.

>>53358593

Yeah but in a real battle that's pretty realistic, you are very unlikely to be run over by a tank unless you are wounded or something.

If anything, being this close to the enemy is when a tank is most vulnerable.

But my point was more that it's going to be annoying and not something I think the designers intended.

File: reece.jpg (27KB, 504x415px) Image search: [Google]

27KB, 504x415px

>>53358641

>>53358547
Never, for I have nothing of value to steal, I am not crippled and you only outnumber me 10 to one so you can not attack.

>>53358652
Yeah, and you're still not likely to get run over, but you're also going to be focused on getting out of the way, and not continuing to fire your heavy machine gun at the dudes that got out of the tank behind those trees over there.

>>53358641

>every sergeant gets a power fist
>yes even the devastator sergeants

>>53358721

Yeah but it's silly, an APC would hang around to support the men and provide an escape. It wouldn't disembark them behind cover and then charge headlong into the enemy in a suicidal manoeuvre to distract an enemy position.

>>53358807

But thats what APCs do in the grim darkness of the future.

>>53358807
Remember; this is warhammer "drive me closer so I can hit them with my sword" 40K.
This is actually flavorsome and realistic, for 40K

>>53358827
>>53358843

Well it seems pretty retarded to me. It's more a limitation of the rules, you'd be suprised how easy it is for a tank to get snagged on something and drop to like 10MPH at which point men would clamber all over it and break in.

I'm sure in 6 weeks time everyone will be bitching about it as armies of 10 5 men space marine squads are terrorising people with swarms of rhinos.

>>53358807
Yeah, but in real life soldiers also don't charge in waving swords. Transports in 40k are never used to 'provide an escape', so having them rush the enemy position guns-blazing is them supporting the troops.

blah blah bawkses cowards fools

>>53358881

>what is gladius strike force

>>53358886

Yeah that's something the designers intended, I think making APC's the best harassment units in the game and using them to tie up your 230 point Captain with a 30 point metal box was not what they intended.

>>53358916

I actually have no idea what the fuck that is but it probably won't be in 8E so what relevance is it in this discussion?

>>53358935
Anon, if your 230pt captain can't punch a rhino to death, what the fuck are you spending those points on?

>>53358935
Why doesn't your captain just kill the thing?

>>53358968

Well they'll have like 8 wounds, so unless he has 8 attacks he probably can't.

>>53358993
There are weapons do multiple damage.

>>53358968
>>53358990
>>53358993
>>53359010

Even if he did kill it in one round, my SM army has 6 rhinos, I could just keep feeding them to him and keep him out the game.

>>53358935
Except a 230 point Captain is probably going to just be able to kill the Rhino. Any dedicated assault unit isn't going to get too harassed or tied up by the thing, and will do exactly what you're asking for in climbing all over it.

A 10 man blob of assault marines will do about 2 wounds per round to a Rhino after saves, and that's assuming they have absolutely no special weapons or anything, not to mention Pistol shots when they stay locked in.

What this affects most is ranged units and heavy weapon teams that aren't skilled at assaulting tanks, and will have to back off.

>>53358993
Give that motherfucker a power fist.

>>53359023
Rhinos are 40pts, yeah?

That's 240pts of rhinos for 230pts of captain.

>>53359024

Anon you're pretty much proving my point, 10 assault marines can only do 2 wounds a round, that's 4 rounds they could tie them up. A 30 point box.

A Captain will probably take at least 2 turns given it's number of wounds and toughness.

>>53359033

Even with D3 damage, at -1 to hit he'll probably need 2 rounds.

>>53359023
Congratulations? You still didn't kill the captain and the rest of his army is still functioning with gunfire?

>>53359090
>Anon you're pretty much proving my point, 10 assault marines can only do 2 wounds a round, that's 4 rounds they could tie them up. A 30 point box.

Way to not read. I specifically said that it's 2 wounds a round BEFORE accounting for any of that other stuff. If they've got a Veteran Sergeant with a Power Axe, then it shifts to 3 per round. 10 shots from Bolt pistols will also shave one off.

So it goes like this, you charge the Rhino into them, take 3 wounds in return. They stay in combat, deal 1 wound with pistols and 3 more in melee. That's 7 wounds total.

If a Rhino has 8 wounds, it's dead if you keep it in combat, and if you do keep it in combat, then they'll be freed up by their next turn.

>>53359089

It was just an example, still it would be pretty shit to spend the entire game killing APC's.

>>53359099

Anon, if he spends all game fighting rhinos he isn't going to make his points back and the enemy will have 1/6th of it's army tied up.

Have you ever played a war game? Area and unit denial are some of the most used tactics.

It would be particularly frustrating against devastators and heavy weapon teams etc.

>>53359023
"Sir, their captain just punched a rhino into oblivion"
"Send more rhinos. Their sacrifice will be a suitable distraction."

>>53359158

So a 30 point box has tied up a 250 point unit for 2 turns? I would just use another 2, which means I've used 90 points to keep nearly 3 times that ineffective for 6 turns or the entire game.

>>53359189
>2 turns

One turn. Are you stupid or something?

>250 points

Oh, yes you are.

>>53359189
Why are you assuming your big pile of rhinos gets to sit right next to your opponent's army without ever taking a shot from anything else?

>>53359189
>He walks away from the rhino instead.

>>53359211

Well by your math they did 7 wounds, I mean, I'm no Cambridge graduate but last time I checked 7 was not 8.

File: cletus open the hatch i'm going in.jpg (73KB, 751x862px) Image search: [Google]

73KB, 751x862px

>zerkers now charge out of rhinos and take ass like they were supposed to instead of sitting around like goofs

wew
e
w

GW actually did it, the absolute madmen

>>53359227

Yeah but when he does that he can't shoot or move, so the rhino just charge at him again.

>>53359216

I'm just talking hypothetically, but it highlights how fucking annoying they are going to be in 8E.

>>53359260
Then hypothetically, the captain will walk away and someone else will shoot the rhino.

>>53359236
>Hurr durr durr

Your turn, you charge, they fight back
Their turn, they fight back
Your turn, they finish your rhino

How many turns of theirs have you tied them up for? Keep in mind that tying them up during your own turn doesn't mean anything.

>>53359165
I don't need to make points back. If 6 rhino rush is what you desire that 6 units just durdling around on foot.

Have you ever played a war game? Area and unit denials are some of the most used tactics.

It would be particularly frustrating against units with model count who need transports to make it to the necessary objectives safely

>>53359305

Everything will only attack once per turn. If they fail to cause 8 wounds it will last 2 turns.

Do you actually play 40Keks?

>>53355826
>FLG seems to be a pretty big part of the recent connection between GW and fans.
This is clearly not the case. GW started their community facebook up a long time ago and have been improving it since. All the tournament peoples have done is a little feedback on the FAQs, at least the 7th ed ones and a few of their higher profile people have helped break 8th edition so GW can fix it.

Don't forget the competitive side of 40k is what has been killing the game since 6th and 7th.

>>53359332

> He fucking buttmad now.

Look, it would be shit.

Can we all just accept that this is a fucking stupid aspect of 8E and a reason why vehicles should have had separate profiles (and why they do in every other war-game out there)?

>>53359337
YES ONCE PER EACH PERSON'S TURN YOU DUMB SHIT

You charge, they hit you. They hit you on their turn. They kill you on your next turn.

You have cost them 1 of their turns where they could act normally had you not charged them.

You dumb fuck.

>>53359362
They also said that they have playtested the game via top tier cheesefags and TOs to get them to break the game and give other feedback, so is it possible some of these nerds from FLG were playtesters? I don't know, I'm asking.

>>53358935
>>53359024
>>53359189
>>53359260
Why is your captain out front where something like a rhino can charge him and not behind a squad?

If your captain is out front why doesn't he have a better anti-vehicle weapon like a chainfist or melta bombs? Especially at 250 pts, seriously WTF?

Long range fire and over-watch will likely soften up any suicide rhinos.

We don't have point totals yet so there is no saying what a rhino will cost.

>>53359405
Yeah, the FLG guys play tested 8e and will be using the rules as is for all future ITC events until further notice. It should be balanced.

>>53359427
Yeah. This all theorycrafting to make something that'll be a decent gimmick for assault troops at best into something gamebreaking and obnoxious.

Yeah, you might be able to carefully position your rhinos to conga them into something expensive, but wouldn't it be better to have them transport a unit to a specific destination, then support that unit by heckling one threat for a turn so the unit they brought can either charge or shoot less fearfully.

>>53356626

Riffs on Rocket Launcher

>Ignores shovel axe on bottom right.

>>53359469
Ya, why distract a SM captain with a Rhino (giving him free attacks in your assault phase and a round of overwatch) when you could taxi something over than could kill said captain.

I wonder if a dev squad with HBolters or LasCannons could do the job in one round, now that they hit on 4+ while moving.

>>53355072
Probably better over all, considerably worse if you want to fight horde guard.

>>53359554
Heavy bolters on the move do 1 wound thanks to saves. Lascannons moving average closer to 4.

Stationary, you're looking at 1.3 and 5.2 respectively.

They don't lose much on the move, but you'll really want the Lascannons for taking one out in any short order.

I'm assuming T 6 3+ by the way.

>>53359371
No. Having separate interaction and adding bloat on top of it is what made 40k shit for decades. Try to 6v1 me fag

>>53359371
No, it's fine. Honestly, I would rather have a Space marine captain struggling to punch his way through a bunch of heavily armored vehicles as they try to run him over and box him in, rather than the current annoyances of having Tank shocks and Rams needing their own separate sections of rules AND being completely useless.

If my Captain gets caught in a bad position and a tank is trying to bump him down? I'll deal with it.

>>53358159
It was a 6 man Venom

>>53355272
Not everyone has universal health care or even real sick days I know I can get fired for calling out "too much" worst thing is I work in a restaurant.

>>53359405
GW could have easily gotten faction feedback from several playtesters and had someone on their end compile it into an article for each faction.

Instead, we get BOLS tier articles on the 40k official community site.

>>53359456
GW is primarily looking for problems with the game. Asking players that solely represent an incredibly small percentage of their customer base would be incredibly foolish.

Their design team made it apparent that they are the ones making the game, it's not "Hey Tournament players, what game do you want?"

>>53360705
I think the big thing they wanted the competitive guys for was to resolve any glaring issues. At the very least, there shouldn't be any units that are glaringly broken or useless. The most I'll expect is some models being over or undercosted.

>>53360705
>Their design team made it apparent that they are the ones making the game, it's not "Hey Tournament players, what game do you want?"

This. Tournament players were the ones involved in the playtesting because they are the most likely to find any combo or broken rule.

>>53355209

Yeah but it's a nerf to Orks, since we just lost 6" on our movement from transports.

>>53360882
Only so they can exploit it in their next big tourney

>>53361015
And that's why they brought in more than one. All of them presumably would have been looking through the books to find OP stuff and playing games to see what works and what didn't.

Anything that was clearly an overpowered combo then would have gotten called out by someone else in an attempt to make sure their secret overpowered combo was better.

>>53360974
If it's anything like the AoS transports (which so far it has been) we have a 3" disembark and THEN you get to move.

>>53361015
You mean those big tourney that already use heavy houseruled faqs to nerf the things too powerful?

>>53361056

Ok, so we lost 3" of movement. Still a nerf for us.

>>53361166
But you have to understand that you now have choices. If you don't think you can make it with the slightly shorter movement, you can just roll your trukk at them and charge with that. Once they break it, you're right on top of them. And I expect Trukks will be pretty fast overall.

Not to mention that boyz might have > 6" movement, or ways of getting that.

>>53356458
Is this bait?

>>53361275
I doubt they'll be faster than 6", though being able to advance and charge might still be an effect of the WAAGH rule

>>53361275

Sure, being able to charge the Trukk in as well is good. But does that compensate for losing 3" of movement (IF you are correct and it works like AoS, otherwise it's actually 6"). Plus we have no idea if WAAAGH will work the way it does currently and let us Run and Charge. That's another story, but taken together, it could well add up to bad news for Orks trying to charge.

>>53361350
Yes, it does, because your boyz cannot be shot inside the trukk and it can still tie up a shooting unit in CC. They can shoot pistols out of the top of it at the unit they're locked in with.

And once the Trukk does die, you're in the middle of them all.

With all the crazy good changes to Tyranids we saw today I somehow doubt they're going to forget that Orks are supposed to be good at charging things.

>>53361350
>>53361412
I have a feeling the new rule for being engaged is just getting to within 1". While charging is often the easiest way to get there what if you can walk into engagement? Or unload from a transport that's already engaged? Hell orks might get a rule like that just for them and maybe DEldar.

Haven't played 40k yet, just Shadow war but I'm starting to collect Necroids. I got the starter box, another set of warriors from a month ago and some immortals. Are the changes to troop transports big enough that I need to look at some ghost arks? We're they important in 7th? They look like fun to build/paint anyway

>>53361275
>>53361517
To be honest, charging with your trukk and only disembarking when the vehicle it's been stopped by the bodies of your enemies it's the orkiest thing ever.

>>53361572
>They look like fun to build/paint anyway

They are a fucking hell to build/paint. But different tastes for different folks.

Still, in 6th, and 7th the Arks where awesome. And unless 8th will nerf them a lot they are still goint to be awesome, as basically every rule until now make them more powerful/useful.

File: 1373348102543.jpg (232KB, 480x640px) Image search: [Google]

232KB, 480x640px

>>53361572
I remember at one time Ghost arks where good and used a fair bit. Not sure how it will shape up in the new edition but Necron foot sloggers are notoriously slow so It might be a good boost in speed for them.

>>53359158
Not the anon you're referring to, but I thought I would partake.

I agree with you.

1. If my dedicated assault unit gets charged by a Rhino, I already dun goofed.
2. If my dedicated assault unit does get charged by the rhino, I don't like that without very specific weapons, I'll be bogged down in that fight while the troops he disembarked will slam into me next turn.

To put it another way, I think infantry should be able to disengage from non Walkers in close combat without penalty after the first round of fighting. If that isn't possible, then I agree with the other anon in that it's very exploitable.

I'm rather looking foward to seeing how my Repressor does in running people over. What with it being sorta defined by the big 'Fuck you' dozer blade on the front. It will do great for getting Repentia to the fight.

Though right now I'm in an odd place of really wanting to see the SOB get a twin pistol unit that isn't jump pack. Girls you can put in a Repressor to make it a much scarier melee unit with the 'Fire pistols in melee'

>>53361634
I saw someone on YouTube had fully magnetized it so not only could he switch out the troop section to make it a (doomsday ark)? With a gun, but also each little seating area magneted apart so I figure that would be the best way to paint it, one section at a time

Maybe I should wait til 8th rules for flyers come out in case night scythes are better

>>53361584
This or a land raider driving over an enemy squad. As they crawl over it trying to pry a hatch open or take out the optics, the access doors slam open and a squad of terminators come out guns blazing and power fists punching.

>>53361670
>that pic
what the fuck

File: 1373355553659.jpg (119KB, 640x480px) Image search: [Google]

119KB, 640x480px

>>53361812

File: 1373348444077.jpg (116KB, 480x640px) Image search: [Google]

116KB, 480x640px

>>53361797
Indeed, that's why I'm working on my cannon fodder Guard/Renegades before my Valkyries. Lets see how fliers turn out first.

>>53361846

>>53361883
W-why is he using a technologically inferior weapon?

>>53356504
I HAVE WAITED YEARS FOR THIS DAY.

STRAP ON MY POWER-FISTER.

File: 1373347673528.jpg (220KB, 800x600px) Image search: [Google]

220KB, 800x600px

>>53361883
>>53361934
You should see what the Nerfcron lord look like

>>53358562
I really hope this isn't the case, seems rather ducking stupid and something that can be abused out the ass.

Aside from initiate being gone and no armor facings in the game (from what we've seen) most of the changes are rather good. I hope they caught all the stupid shit in play testing.

>>53361797
Unless they change how they work on a fundamental level, Scythes and Arks have very different roles.

Ghost Arks are a support vehicle for Necron Warriors. Their role is to protect a warrior units from enemy fire while driving them around and having them shooting from inside. It can also resurrect warrior models, so basically in every situation in which you where tempted to take 20 warriors take instead 10 warriors + 1 Ark for the same firepower but a lot more durability and more mobility.

The Scythe instead it's basically a hybrid between a drop pod and a Gunship. It's role is to enter the battlefield, drop its unit in the chosen place, and then go its way to shoot things down while forgetting about its cargo.

Also while the Scythe can embark everything the Ark can only carry Warriors and characters.

>>53361962
But this is wrong anon! WRONG!

File: necron1.jpg (18KB, 300x280px) Image search: [Google]

18KB, 300x280px

>>53361883
>>53361962
And I thought the flayer virus was bad!

File: 1373348016968.jpg (148KB, 480x640px) Image search: [Google]

148KB, 480x640px

>>53362039
>>53361681
It's like one person mentioned, I'm not worried about an assault unit getting charged by something like a rhino. If you charge my guys I'm getting a bunch of free attacks an not loosing much from a metal box with 3 attacks and 5+ to hit in melee. I'll just finish it off on my turn.

It's taking a rhino leaving the Devastators inside behind and hauling balls into the enemy Devastators to tie them up. That's where loosing a round of shooting to kill it or withdraw will suck.

>>53362104
So wrong it's right.

File: 1373347822650.jpg (227KB, 600x800px) Image search: [Google]

227KB, 600x800px

>>53362165
>>53362104

>>53362177
If your devastators are getting charged by a Rhino something has gone wrong way before that.

>>53362193
>>53361962
>>53361883
>>53361846
>>53361670
I am unsure if this is genius or inanity

File: 1373347064966.jpg (420KB, 1024x768px) Image search: [Google]

420KB, 1024x768px

>>53362196
Absolutely, but I'm still more worried about that than my assault squad getting bogged down. by a rhino that may well die the same turn it charged with no actual effect.

>>53362248
Are we ready for the monolith?

>>53362193
>>53362289
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH
Also, T H I C C paintjob in some cases.

File: 1373347957976.jpg (142KB, 640x480px) Image search: [Google]

142KB, 640x480px

>>53362306
>AAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH
Does the mean it's time to ROCK!

>>53362289
That one is beautiful

File: 1373348194424.jpg (193KB, 480x640px) Image search: [Google]

193KB, 480x640px

>>53362248
>>53362370
The uppity of Nerfcron technology...painted crystals

>>53362092
Thx for info seems I'll hold off until we know more about 8th and I know more about what type of forces I want to field, scythe for offensive ghostark for defensive play sorta thing. I like the healing aspect of the ghostark tho

>>53361670
>>53361846
>>53361883
>>53361962
>>53362177
>>53362193
>>53362289
>>53362366
>>53362402
This is so horrible it's beautiful. So beautiful it hurts my eyes.
They're burning. It's wonderful.

>>53362402
>not enough minerals

File: 1373347922491.jpg (149KB, 640x480px) Image search: [Google]

149KB, 640x480px

>>53362481
>>53362491
Can't forget the destroyer lord.

>>53355609
>>53355839
>the last few weeks of nid shitposting over "MUH FEARLESS HIVEMIND RRREEEE" was all for naught
>these faggots won't be banned

>>53356458
If you don't want to paint, go to Ebay or pay someone. I don't even want to guess how much GW would charge for painted models.

>>53356334

Interesting, that makes sense.

>>53356334
But I am contractually obliged to hate the vermin in all their forms. Yet I love muh space dinobugs.
>XALAPA ROAD
Quite, captcha.

>>53356275
Have fun shooting all your overwatch flamers at an empty transport rather than the assault troops that are about to fuck you up.

>>53358881
Races with spiky death dealing transports like Orks and DE were just ahead of their time. I can't wait.

Do you think they'll finally give CSM drop pods now that everything is getting updated at once?

>>53363585
Dear god let there be a warzone where a Dark Eldar Wych cult are challenged by the Orks to a race. then we get rebooted gorka-Morka.

>>53363594
Dreadclaws still exist and will get FW rules. Now that SM Drop Pods don't seems to have special snowflake deployment rules Dreadclaws are CSM drop pods.

>>53363594
I don't think they really need them anymore. The benefit to them was highly accurate deep-strikes and the ability to reposition due to disembarking even closer.

Now that disembarking happens at the start of movement and deep striking at the end, it'll probably function more like the Trygon and still have the 9" restriction.

At that point, you might as well just drop in combi-plasma terminators or Raptors with meltaguns.

>>53363623
Gangs of Gorkamorragh

>>53363653
A few hundred of wyches, reavers and hellions are trapped on a world with only the venoms and raiders that brought them there, because the orks blew up the webway portal. To survive they must do the only thing they have in common with the Orks beside an innate love of violence. Drive really really fast, and crash into things.

>>53363633

>one of these things is a $40 plastic kit
>the other is a $120+ forgeworld kit

If they're the same, then why not let CSM have the normal pods, too? As much as I love the Anvillus model, and I fucking love the one I have, the price difference is absurd.

>>53363637

I'll be using Termie and Raptors, too, but I'd like to have the option of putting shit where they'll be most effective on the fly like Chosen with Combi-Plasma/flamers or something. Plus, pods are going to be great at disrupting melee walls.

>>53363794
>then why not let CSM have the normal pods, too

They should just make a plastic Dreadclaw kit.

>>53356049
>I know that 8th is saving us from 7th. I'm not sure if it's going to be enough. Too much comes down to execution, and I don't think GW has the skills to do a halfway decent job at any design anymore. I'm willing to be proven wrong when it releases though.
>I don't think GW has the skills to do a halfway decent job at any design anymore.
>anymore

40k has been a trash game from the very beginning. I started in third and it was clear back then that they had no fucking idea what they were doing. This looks like the best ruleset that garbage company has ever produced, and it's doing it by totally abandoning the garbage that is the games original core systems while notably pulling back on the endless creep of randumb effect determining games.

If they got rid of random charge distances this would look like a contender for best current tabletop game. Except they didn't so it's still worse than warmahordes though with better models and more interesting fluff and factions.

File: 1441644832863.png (102KB, 800x800px) Image search: [Google]

102KB, 800x800px

>>53363878

>mfw

My wallet wouldn't be ready for that shit

>>53363897
Random charge is the trade-off for allowing complete pre-measuring. Things can get pretty dumb otherwise.

File: 40,000 keks.png (182KB, 358x310px) Image search: [Google]

182KB, 358x310px

>>53362565
This is amazing.

>>53359244
How you'll get to charge a unit, break it, then get obliterated in shooting after killing a unit half your cost like the good old days.

>>53363959
No they can't. Everyone can measure at any time in almost every other tabletop game ever and it hasn't been a problem. Random charges are just retarded from to back. There is no actual defense, it's an awful rule.

>>53364115
I think they confirmed consolidating into combat again in a stream.

>>53363897
They're bringing back 2nd edition concepts. So.. returning to the original core systems is more accurate.

>>53364378
Not really. "concepts" like losing the artificial cap on stats and bringing in movement speed isn't a return to anything. That's just how every other game in the industry works. The core mechanics of 2nd were god awful and they only appear to be coming back superficially because of d6 wounds and armor modifiers, but those are just how variable damage systems work. That's how they work in DnD, and just about every other tactics game. It's a system that makes sense and is flavorful.

If anything seventh was the 'return' to second with lol randumb everything, godlike and unstoppable characters and psychic powers, games totally pre determined by army selection, and an absolute lack of competitive viability.

>>53356301
I have the job and the money but GW hasn't made a new model I want to buy in half a decade and seeing how the releases for the next year or two seem to be marines and spikey marines, I don't see that changing.

>>53364552
The core mechanics of 2nd ed. are great for a skirmish game. They're poor for a mass battle game. I agree with you that this isnt really a "return to 2nd" though. It very much it's own thing with a mix of concepts from 2nd, 3rd-7th, AoS and new stuff.

>>53364613
You're an SoB player and you didn't get Celestine?

>>53355072
Lawl my imperial guard infantry army is so excited now. So many Lasguns.

>>53364647
Pretty sure celestine came out like a decade ago.

>>53364647
I already have a Celestine, including the stereotypical wings conversion. Out of the entire range it was the model least in need of replacing, especially when you have to buy a box of other crap to gef it.

>>53364997
So you just use Seraphim for the Geminae?

>>53364936
Have you been under a rock?

File: wtfamilisteningto.jpg (41KB, 641x274px) Image search: [Google]

41KB, 641x274px

>>53355398
>own 16 Warriors
>80+ stealers
>3 broodlords
>3 Tyrants incl 2 with wings
>8 carnifexes
>200+ Gaunts

Here's hoping they're as good as they were in 4th ed.

>>53365156
No but I quit when the game turned to shit. Did they come out with another copy of wing lady?

>>53363959
Then why not have random shooting ranges?

>>53365704
Or random movement? Why be able to plan or space anything at all? It gives players who are good at the game an advantage, and we can't have that.

But, like, literally that's 7th. Random ludicrously overpowered psychic abilities, random charges, random objectives. No one plays, there is no actual gameplay in a game of 40k. It's just setting up models, rolling like three sets of dice to determine who wins the battle, then pantomiming out the foregone conclusion.

What if random charge distance is to counteract the ability to assault out of everything and consolidate into combat, if not assault armies would win most of the time if there were fixed charge distances

>>53358551
It's like all the people whinging about positioning and tactics being gone ... are idiots

>>53363794
they really aren't the same at all

>>53363766
MAD MAX: WARHAMMER 40K EDITION!

>>53365898
If that's the case then they should remove one of the other rules. Saying "this is too strong, we should make the entire basis of half of our armies be random so that games are won or lost entirely on a small number of charge distance rolls" is lazy, shitty, game design.

It's not cinematic, it makes no LOGICAL sense, it disproportionately effects some armies much more than others, and it makes the outcomes of games feel like random chance, rather than player skill. Like, you make hundreds if not sometimes thousands of rolls in a game for shooting or melee. You make like three IMPORTANT charge rolls. There are too few of them to average out, they make or break games.

If you have to include a mechanic like that in the game then you fucked up somewhere and need figure out how you got there.

>>53366043
A rhino probably still moves at max 12 inches and can't be within an inch if it's not in assault. That is not enough to get behind anything at all and that assumes the enemy army did nothing on their turn (like kill the fucking rhino or move back). It would be literally impossible for like 90% of the games transports to do what you just described.

It's as if the people NOT whinging about the loss of tactical positioning are idiots. Not that it existed in 7th either. Kinda hard to lose something you don't have.

File: 3225089.jpg (2MB, 2000x2000px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 2000x2000px

>>53366207
I'd make some kind of suped up chaos rhino/chimera/truck to get in on that.

>>53365704
Shooting ranges have huge variance with different weapons so it's harder to stand just outside of threat range reliably. Plus a single round of shooting tends to be less decisive than many melee combats particularly when you factor in cover.

>>53364143
Oh you can do it, but there are costs, and it can often lead to paralysis as armies jostle around just outside of threat ranges. Warmachine for example can handle it because there are so many limited use spells and abilities to expand threat ranges so it becomes a resource managment and prioritization game. Even then it has that downside that the proper way to play is generally to measure out the entire game turn before moving a single model. It's only of the factors that gives that game an abstract puzzle-like feel.

>>53365325
Yes, four months ago.

>>53366609
>Oh you can do it, but there are costs, and it can often lead to paralysis as armies jostle around just outside of threat ranges.

Play 40k and just make charges 6.5 inches (and make run a flat +3 inches in the movement phase). Try it. It doesn't change. People might jostle a tiny bit with rapid firing squads, but for the most part the overages are big enough and the penalties for moving with shooting armies severe enough that no one actually does it. Like, up until the removal of guess weapons you straight up COULD premeasure and people didn't jostle like described. It's a solution for a problem that doesn't end up impacting the game in a meaningful way.

Hell, it probably wasn't intended to actually counter pre measuring. It was probably there as random in the same way objectives became random and psychic powers, and warlord traits, and everything else. The game took a HARD turn towards catering to old aspie casuals and 'cinematic' battles. Which, as it turns out, fucked the game up so royally it became borderline unplayable like so many people predicted.

>Warmachine for example can handle it because there are so many limited use spells and abilities to expand threat ranges so it becomes a resource managment and prioritization game.

Warmachine has a fraction of the models in a single game and individual unit losses are vastly more important and it STILL manages to avoid it. 40k has transports, psychic power move buffs, benefits for units to stay close (rapid fire, most assault weapon ranges, getting to fire heavy weapons, etc). It wouldn't paralyze the game, but it would add tactical depth in positioning that hasn't existed since random charges were introduced.

>Even then it has that downside that the proper way to play is generally to measure out the entire game turn before moving a single model. It's only of the factors that gives that game an abstract puzzle-like feel.

Warmachine feels a lot less like that if you subtract warcasters.

>>53366609
>Shooting ranges have huge variance with different weapons so it's harder to stand just outside of threat range reliably. Plus a single round of shooting tends to be less decisive than many melee combats particularly when you factor in cover.

I missed that part of the post.

Shooting weapons definitely do not have more variance in ranges than assault, and will have way less so in the coming edition (thanks to move speeds), even if the game didn't have randumb charges. There are like six gun ranges in the game that actually matter (12/18/24/30/36/48), everything else is superfluously long, and if you don't think people pre measure in deployment to stay out of heavy weapon range or LoS you're crazy.

An Ork boy charges at a different speed than one in a trukk,
which is different than a meganob,
which is different than a stormboy,
which is different than a termagaunt,
which is different than a hormugaunt,
which is different than a Trygon,
which is different than a knight.

That's just a few units from a few armies and it's ignoring the inherent (and equally pointless garbage rule) randomness of running and the much less pointless randomness of terrain.

What keeps people from just constantly dodging shooting is that the threat bubbles overlap and there are like 50 instances of a unit shooting in a game. There are like four important charges in a game (the first four).

>>53366754
>>53366874
Fair Enough. I haven't personally playtested with fixed charge ranges myself. So I'll have to defer to your apparent experience. My past experience with really problematic premeasuring were very different games with much smaller model counts. Still, it's no coincidence that random charges and pre-measuring arrived in 40k at the same time. At least in the minds of the rules designers the one is a consequence of the other.

And even so, you want a certain amount of variance in the game and personally I have no real problem with charges being one of the places they inject variance in. Hopefully the command point re-roll will smooth out the issue for players who do have a problem with it.

>>53358113
>Theoryfags still think the minimum deployment distance matters
Literally nobody who plays the game thinks like this. Anyone who wants to assault, yeah, they'll be as close as possible. Anybody else? They will be way back, often not even in range to shoot on the first turn with a lot of their lower range guns, just to ensure you won't catch them sooner than turn 3 at best, and that is if you survive this long.

Are you playing against gunline IG who sets up the minimum distance from you or something? Why does he do that? Do you really suck his dick that much and that good?

>>53365164

They mentioned warriors being better because lots of weapons that used to insta-kill them now need a lucky d3 roll to do it.

>>53354928
>essentially 5th ed movement/disembark rules
>vehicles are tougher
I see that my Howling Banshees are about to see a lot of action again, just like in 5th.

>16" movement on Starweaver
>probably 16" movement on Vypers. Praise Ynnead.

>>53355185
>>53355277
I used to run an all mech-assault army in 5th ed and this literally was never a problem. You don't place your transports in places where the enemy cannot get away. You have the mobility advantage after all. Mind this is back in 5th ed when you couldn't pre-measure. So I'd sit there and eyeball my 12" vehicle move, 2" deploy next turn, 6" move, 1d6" fleet and 6" charge and hope I put enough units in a bad position that they couldn't really get away.

>>53367112
If the shooting army is backed up super far and isn't even in range to shoot you, then that's just more time you can spend grabbing objectives and picking your targets. If everything is far back then all his big guns and little guns will be in one nice blob you can consolidate your assaults into. It also means that there won't be as much room to fall back to.

>>53366754
6.5 inches is an fiddly number. Any reason that you wouldn't just call it 7?
>>53366874
>There are like four important charges in a game (the first four).
The first four that aren't just there to eat overwatch anyhow.

>>53367058
>And even so, you want a certain amount of variance in the game and personally I have no real problem with charges being one of the places they inject variance in.

I much prefer the variance come from army lists and the permanent and unexpected randomness of playing competitively against another human. Random charges is just too few rolls that are too important to be random for me.

>>53367493
Call it 7, i was just doing the middle of 1-12 which i guess is actually impossible on 2d6.

>The first four that aren't just there to eat overwatch anyhow.

It's much worse if it's something like a 400 point assault terminator squad falling short of a four inch charge. Like, that situation made me quit 40k. It happened and I haven't played since. I chose a good time to leave because 7th was a titanic clusterfuck.

>>53367553
Variance doesn't really come from army lists. Particularly in a competitive setting were people netlist. And your view isn't surprising, in almost every game ever the stronger more competitive players generally want less variance and more casual, less experienced players want more variance. A games designer has to choose how they weigh those views given the audience they're designing for. Random charges does reduce the "Geometry Puzzle" aspect of of strategy such as it is. That said I think the option to have a single command point re-roll does add back strategic depth both in smoothing out those really bad beats and letting you make a conscious strategic choice in prioritizing which rolls are really important to you.

Plus, ditching the vehicle rules has already removed a huge amount of variance from the game.

>>53367258
>If the shooting army is backed up super far and isn't even in range to shoot you,
No, short range guns wont reach. The long range (and most devastating) ones still can.
>then that's just more time you can spend grabbing objectives and picking your targets.
That is also more time the opponent has to remove you from the table, and with transports being more vulnerable than ever, nice large blast AOE will remove units every turn.
>If everything is far back then all his big guns and little guns will be in one nice blob you can consolidate your assaults into.
Wot? Are you playing on triangle tables? You should have *at least* 80" of space to spread out on, which is also serving to fuck you over, as just one side of yours collapsing, will give the opponent a good half of his army a free firing range to mow you down.
>It also means that there won't be as much room to fall back to.
??

Are you playing on 60"x60" tables? Literally what are you talking about?

Either you have never actually played the game (most likely) or you have at best played on your dinner table, which is likely 3 times too small for a proper game.

>>53367657
>It's much worse if it's something like a 400 point assault terminator squad falling short of a four inch charge
Oh, yeah. I wasn't disagreeing with the overall statement, just nitpicking the edges.

>>53367674
>80" of space to spread out on
>on a 72" wide table

>b-but my long range guns!
>i-if you kill half my army, I'll have a clear shot at you!

Long range guns in 8th are looking more pitiful than ever. Large Blasts removing units every turn? Long gone.

>>53367665
>Variance doesn't really come from army lists. Particularly in a competitive setting were people netlist.

That is an aspect of the shit garbage game design of 40k where games don't ACTUALLY exist, just lists that auto win against eachother and an hour spent reaching a foregone conclusion. A game with some semblance of balanced unit variety doesn't suffer from remotely the same level of pre-determination.

>And your view isn't surprising, in almost every game ever the stronger more competitive players generally want less variance and more casual, less experienced players want more variance. A games designer has to choose how they weigh those views given the audience they're designing for. Random charges does reduce the "Geometry Puzzle" aspect of of strategy such as it is.

Random charges radically increases the geometry puzzle aspect, but it removes certainties, which reduces the impact and VALUE of skill and correct interpretation of your opponents intentions. There's a reason virtually no competitive sport or videogame in history has had random rules. Even card games do almost everything they can to reduce ACTUAL randomness in game (except hearthstone, but the tournament scene for that game is about as good as 7th ed 40k's).

>That said I think the option to have a single command point re-roll does add back strategic depth both in smoothing out those really bad beats and letting you make a conscious strategic choice in prioritizing which rolls are really important to you.

It's still badly damaged. There are just too few meaningful charge rolls for them to not be make or break moments in a game. A make or break moment that is random means the games result is also random. 40k has a TON of random shit already, this didn't need to be another one and it, alongside random psychic powers, has all but killed the game competitively. Lets not be coy, as it stands 40k is barely a game at all, let alone one that can be played in a competitive manner.

>>53367553
playing a dice game is variance. roll dice, everything thing is "randumb"
play the game

>>53367665
>Plus, ditching the vehicle rules has already removed a huge amount of variance from the game.
>>53367846
cont....

Only in the abstract with the removal of weapon destroyed results. Non superheavy walkers were already totally non viable, so vehicles were really just cover manipulating gun bunkers or superheavies. The d6 wound mechanic introduces a HUGE amount of randomness since you actually make relatively few penetrating rolls in a game, so swapping damage tables with d6 wounds ends up with roughly the same number of die rolled and possible results.

But lets pull back from this. It's a rule that literally made me quit the game (and quite a few other people) with how awful it was. While it's a rule you want to keep on a whim. Should they have kept something that players are this hostile too?

Keep in mind they are totally redesigning the game and abandoning 30 years of rulesets because the game they made has become SO random and unbalanced. The edition people remember most fondly (fifth) was the one BEFORE random charges.

>>53367866
>playing a dice game is variance. roll dice, everything thing is "randumb"
play the game

Fuck off, you have no idea how statistics work if that's what you believe. If you roll 90-150 gun shots in a game at 3+ that isn't random. You will average within a tiny variance every single time. Odds become statistic averages with enough rolls.

Except not when you only make like six of them in a game, at which point dice decide the game and not the player.

Also, there is no 'game' in 7th. Did you roll the right psychic powers? Do you have enough meltas to auto win against the knight army? Then you're set.

Oh... You didn't? Well you lose. Should you bother setting up? Nah, probably not. Just shake the dudes hand then walk away from the table.

>>53367674

Large blasts look like they're lucky to get D6 attacks, they won't be popping multiple transports per turn

>>53367674
Reserved flank deployment only works if the missions allow for it or if the statlines and points still make reliable tabling a thing.

If they did their job and made a balanced core game it should be VERY unrealistic to table an opponent, unlike the garbage pile that is current 40k. You play the biggest dumpster fire of a game in the industry and you are shouting at people about what they think concerning a total rules rewrite. You should have quit already and you shouldn't be making assumptions about the meta in a totally revamped game.

>>53367141
I stopped playing nids when the 4th ed codex was play tested and pointed with the double-S instadeath immunity, and then they FAQ'ed that rule out but didn't adjust points values. Nids have never been competitive since. Here's hoping 8th fixes that.

>>53357383
its been mentioned that units can still shoot out of open topped transports.

If charge distances were fixed, between two units with the same move stat and barring any special rules, wouldn't the success of the charge be determined by the defender? How would the agressor be able to position himself for a charge in this system?

>>53367058
>My past experience with really problematic premeasuring were very different games with much smaller model counts.
Yet Shadow War, Warmachine and Malifaux do fine with premeasuring and fixed charge ranges. All have small model counts.

>you want a certain amount of variance in the game and personally I have no real problem with charges being one of the places they inject variance in
Yeah, because rolling dice to hit, wound, and make armor saves isn't random at all.

>>53366344

It's not exactly what you want but the new command points in 8th will fix this issue most of the time.

>>53367908
>lets pull back from this. It's a rule that literally made me quit the game (and quite a few other people) with how awful it was.

Not a whim. I think variance in a hobby game like this it important. And there are perfectly valid game design reasons for it. Some people won't be satisfied unless there's no variance in the game. But I don't want to be playing Go or Chess. And I don't think the vast majority of the market GW is after does either.

Obviously you can push it too far, but there are many excellent game design articles out there discussing the value of randomness in games. I really don't think random charges are a bridge too far, especially with access to re-rolls, but this is really a taste thing and it's going to differ from person to person as to what kind if roll is too big of a roll.

And I mentioned vehicles which you dismissed out of hand, but there are a lot of other examples of reduced variance like reserves being completely non-random now, powers being chosen rather than rolled, and morale no longer being all or nothing. It also seems likely random movement in difficult terrain is gone. When looking at the game as a whole I don't think random charges are too much.

>>53368201
Essentially what happens is the side with less guns, unless it has a huge movement advantage, is forced to move into a range where they can be charged if the opponent wants.

>>53368213
It's somewhat random, but at the model counts of 40k the randomness from those rolls isn't that great. Most competitive players try to build in a lot of redundancy even for things like heavy weapons.

>>53368170

AND that pistols can shoot while the vehicle is locked in combat

>>53368247

I think movement values should play a part in charge distance, though. Why is it that a good roll can make a unit that only moves 4" suddenly turbo boost 12" when it charges, and likewise a unit with an 8" movement trips over its own feet because it rolled snake eyes on a 4" charge.

>>53368337
It does play a part. All things being equal a faster unit can get closer and thus push the probability curve of the charge roll more in their favor. I see where you're coming from, but the simplicity of the charge roll itself is likely a consequence of the granularity of the d6 and 8th ed's overall directive to streamline play.

>>53368337
I've been thinking if it was possible for a game system to have charge/run distance be d(movement value). It'll probably be a pain getting the dice but I wonder how well it'd turn out.

>>53368408
It would probably work great as a house rule. d5, d7, and d9 would be annoying though. Maybe just round up or down to the nearest multiple of 2.

>>53368397
So why not have say half of the units movement value be the minimum charge distance? You still have random distances, but things with high move can be assured they'll close that gap no matter what.

>>53368468
I think d5, d7, d9 and d11 could be represented using d6, d8, d10, d12 and rerolling the results that exceed the actual value (i.e. d5 is a d6 rerolling any 6s).

>>53368476
Sure, you could do that if you wanted to mess around with the probability curve of a random charge. Some things just come down to design decisions. I speculate this was a case where simplicity of play overrode additional verisimilitude in the simulation.

>>53368541
You could, but that's pretty awkward in practice for an already kinda awkward mechanic. But it's your rule.

File: SW Terminator 033.jpg (2MB, 4000x3000px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 4000x3000px

>>53366754
All my 40k experience was in 2nd and 3rd, back during fixed charged distances. It did affect the game - there was a lot of gameyness, i.e. moving squad members in an "unnatural" way to make sure they were exactly in or out of charge range. It was most noticeable with units that didn't want to get charged. They'd start in a loose blob formation, move toward the target, and then form a tight firing line 12.5" away (or 8.5" in 2nd ed,) before shooting.

GW probably felt that they could speed up the game if you weren't incentivized to to picky about every model's exact location. Not sure that's what happened when they introduced random charge ranges, but it's interesting that with so much going back to 2nd edition ideas they kept random charges. I can only hope that was based on testing that suggested it was still a good mechanic. It does seem annoying.

>>53368476
My only problem with including movement values in charge ranges is that it further devalues footsloging melee units compared to units which have in built mobility.

>>53361846
>C-3PO

>>53355224

It seems considerably worse thus far. Assault somehow has gotten worse.

>>53355381

>Genestealers now lose to Guardsman because the Guardsman charged first!

Sounds great!

>>53367908
>The edition people remember most fondly (fifth)
>fifth
I know it was better than anything after it, but it was also solidly worse than 4th in many ways.

>>53368605
>form a tight firing line 12.5" away
in 3e, if you moved, you were firing at up to 12" with rapid fire weapons, and most weapons were rapid fire.