/STG/ - Star Trek General

>>53347835
two miranda variants in a row? tread carefully op

>>53347835
Miranda a cute

A CUTE

>>53347862
you have the right to remain silent

>Makes a Miranda thread
>Posting slows down
>Hits bump limit
>Falls off board with no new thread
>All posts lost

>>53349110
What about a Miranda mounted on top of another Miranda? A Double-Miranda if you would. Twice the everything, surely nothing could stand in its way.

>>53349110
Didn't even hit the bump limit, died at sub-150 posts.

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>>53349810
That's my old ship!

>>53347835

In our section, this quadrant, and closing.

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>>53349905
THERE ARE FOUR NACELLES

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How do y'all feel about fanships/kitbashes? I'm usually not a fan but I found the USS Shangri-La from Bill Krause the other day and I got to admit I fucking love it.

You guys got any fanmade trek designs you enjoy?

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>>53350381
Depends a lot on the quality of the kitbash, many make the same mistakes that drawn designs do in fucking up the proportions and placement of components.

But good designs are good designs.

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>>53347835
One more

>>53350213
underrated

>>53347862
Different ops, I assume. Previous one said he'd be gone till Sunday. Probably part of why the last thread died.

>>53350750
>4chan survives into the 24th century.

I don't want to think about that, honestly.

>>53353544
/pol/ Votes for Leyton.

>>53352753
Yeah, I saw the thread died and I was so goddamn excited about my T6 Miranda with phasers shooting from the Saratoga parts like I always dreamed of

>>53353575
>/pol/ votes for military ranks because they don't quite get how it works

seems legit

Does anyone have any good respurces for Star Fleet Battles?

I'm not an /stg/ regular, but can never find any good caches of scans for SFB...

>>53355681
There should be some under the "older licensed RPGs" paste-bin link in the op.

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>>53353575
Could /pol/ even exist within the ideology of the United Federation of Planets?

I mean I guess you'd have to let them stay because of the Federations "Muh Infinite Diversity" mindset. But I feel that every time Season 1 Picard made a speach about how garbage humans used to be as opposed to how awesome and enlightened they are now he'd be imagining a /pol/ack and making a face like he just chugged a gallon of spoiled milk

>>53356071

Nah, checked there but its only the RPGs, not the old hex board/war game

Hey, guys, for unrelated reasons I just did some math in another thread and found something pretty cool.

Okay, so the Galaxy is about 100,000 lighyears wide but on average only 1,000 lightyears thick. In Star Trek: First Contact, Picard states that the Federation is eight thousand lightyears across. If we presume a rough sphere for the extent of the Federation's expansion, and that it's also expanded "up and down" as far as possible (1,000 ly), this gives us a rough cylinder that's 8,000 ly wide and 1,000 ly tall, for a total volume of 50,300,000,000 light years.

The Solar neighborhood (the area around the Sun) has a star density of about .004 stars per cubic light year. This means that the TNG-era Federation has about 201,200,000 stars in it.

So that's a lot. BUT, here's where things get neat. The Milky Way has between 200-400 billion stars in it. Nearly every single star that we've looked at appears to have at least one planet, so it can be conservatively guessed that there's between 200-400 billion planets in the Milky Way.

In TOS "Balance of Terror", Doctor McCoy states, "in this galaxy, there's a mathematical probability of three million Earth-type planets". If we presume this to mean "planets where humanoid life has evolved" (which, given the context, is likely). Given the number of stars in the Milky Way, this means that between .0015% and .00075% of all planets have humanoids, which when applied to the number of stars in the Federation, means that there's between 1,509 - 3,018 humanoid worlds within its bounds.

And THAT'S why it's okay for a prequel series like Enterprise or Discovery to introduce us to aliens we've never seen before.

>>53356272
Yes.

Yes it could.

Betazoids get free commission based on race.

Kirk wanted a Vulcan science officer in Star Trek the Slow Motion Picture, qualifications being a consideration after race.

Star Fleet were going to hand Worf over to the Klingons for a totally fair trial honest because he was ethnically Klingon. Never mind the fact that he was a UFP citizen.

Nausicaan captains are allowed to get away with literal murder and no trouble of this get sent back home.

Ferangi captains of the TNG era are all opportunistic state sponsored pirates, but are given free pass from serious consequence due to race.

It's perfectly ok to let a primitive society die out from something you could prevent. Unless they're humans.

Go fuck yourself, UFP would be a breeding ground for /pol/. Roddenberry might have been a "equality at all costs" hippie in theory but in practice he seemed to favour inequality.

>>53349905
I wonder what would have happened to a Constellation that got grabbed by the caretaker. Probably ripped apart in transit or assimilated when they hit Borg space.

>>53357122
>Roddenberry might have been a "equality at all costs" hippie in theory but in practice he seemed to favour inequality.
A case of his ideals clashing with the need to tell a good story. A "perfect" utopia of equality and diversity makes for a really boring setting.

>>53357042
So did the Klingons, Romulans, Ferengi, and Cardassians just genocide all the other species within their borders? I can see the Klinks and Cardies doing it.

>>53357296
Not the Ferengi as that would be a waste of customers for them to swindle.

>>53358238
>ferengi posts
>>>/vip/

>>53357296
The Cardassians were in the middle of one on Bajor so yes.

The Klingons have a history of taking other conquered races as second class citizens under the Empire.

The Romulans probably dance between the two depending on how paranoid they are that day.

>>53358651
What the fuck is this trash board?

>>53356456
I'll have a look and see if I can put something together

>>53358651
>vip
>not >>>/biz/

>>53357122
>Star Fleet were going to hand Worf over to the Klingons for a totally fair trial honest because he was ethnically Klingon.
The trial he first had to be told about by his brother then travel all the way to Qo'noS on his own initiate for?

>>53361390
No, the other one.

The one where the colour coordinated klingon lawyer (wear black because evil) was trying to determine if he was acting "klingon in his heart".

The fact that Star Fleet was even willing to entertain the notion of extradition on a case that boiled down to muh feels is pretty fucking damning.

>>53357296
The Ferengi have a tiny territory. You'd still expect them to have a couple of other alien species within their borders based on those numbers, but it's plausible they just happened to be in an area of space with relatively low species density.

>>53357122
>
It's perfectly ok to let a primitive society die out from something you could prevent. Unless they're humans.

Source on the primitive human society thing? Are you sure they weren't just aliens that they didn't bother putting face-putty on?

>>53359157
4chan Pass users only. Literally pay to post, hence Ferengi.

>>53361586
The clones and the luddites.

Both primitive societies stated to be descend from Earth, old colony worlds set up before Earth joined the UFP, both faced with destruction from space stuff and neither capable of warp flight.

Enterprise helps them

In contrast Picard and crew watch a planet with a population in the millions die and then pontificate about how noble they were for doing so and upholding the Cosmic Plan. Worf's stepbrother saved a handful by commandeering the holodeck and the transporter.

When your official policy rests on some divinely ordained Cosmic Plan it's time to step back, reevaluate your shit and make things less shit. And drink heavily whilst considering the atrocity you used to allow.

>>53361475
He wasn't going to be extradited because he was a Klingon, but because he was accused of blowing up a ship full of Klingon civilians.

>>53361882
Which was not the argument the Klingon Lawyer was making.

They were trying to argue that if he was "truly klingon" then he would be subject to sharia law rather than UFP law.

Truly Klingon being determined by his conduct and feelings at the time.

Blowing up the ship was unfortunate on Worf's part. Feelings should not come into it.

Also it was battle.

In the time it takes to say

>O'Brian what is that decloaking
>It's rig'dehed transport vessel, sir

A lot of bad shit could have happened.

Fault should have landed with the hypothetical klingon captain for parking his ferry practically inside the Defiant's cannons, during a battle.

Because apparently space is only a few miles across and there's a limited number of parking spaces and shit.

>>53361737
Right, but they were brought to their new worlds by warp tech. Non-native and warp capable means they should fall under the purview of Starfleet, as the prime directive no longer applies. Especially seeing as they're human.

Under Federation law they are automatically guaranteed citizenship and protected by their status as a founder species.

I won't even try to defend Starfleet's stance of "no warp drive, no help" as it is fundamentally contradictory to the Space Samaritan image that the crew so often encapsulate. However, on a state level, I can see their justification. Again, I'll stress that I'm ot a fan of this particular TNG foible.

In "First Contact" (the episode, not the film) Picard speaks of some major fuck up caused by helping a developing species survive n extinction level event. As a result, the UFP has taken a much more protectionist stance in its interactions with undeveloped species. As a result of the political and popular fallout from this event, Starfleet has taken a much more hard-line stance on helping developing societies. If there is no pre-existing proof that your society can endure to warp capability, you don't matter as a species.

>>53361993
I always thought that whole trial was bullshit. It was basically a Romulan-esqe stacked deck plan to get support even though they are literally the most violent of the large powers in the Galaxy. Still a good episode though.

>>53361993
>>53361882
>>53361475
>>53362197

If I were the Starfleet judge in that case, and I'd been forced to find in favour of the Klingon appeal, I would have calmly explained to their lawyer that, as a result of the hostilities between the Federation and Klingon Empire, as well as the Klingon annulment of the Khitomer accords, no extradition treaty exists. Nor is it Federation policy to extradite criminals to empires with whom they are currently engaged in hostilities. However, if the Klingons are interested in exchanging war-criminals, then there is a long list of Klingon captains wanted for war crimes against Federation civilians. Otherwise, they can fuck right off.

>>53362382
The entire basis of that episode, even if Worf killed a bunch of civilians, was complete bullshit when the Klingons had absolutely no problems at all slaughtering civilians and medical personnel in other episodes.

>>53362553
You need to remember that the UFP is massively ass backwards when it comes to the laws of other races. They will basically bend over for most cultures if they talk enough bullshit.

>>53362169
The Prime Directive makes sense in most cases. If a species is not biologically and socially capable of warp flight, their development will get messed up by what appears to be divine intervention, thus provoking either cargo cult laziness or holy wars. Data also mentions that less than ten species who achieved spaceflight before political unity survived to become stable warp species. One of those was humans.

This doesn't mean exceptions can't be made, like if a planet is becoming uninhabitable through no fault of the people living there, but in 99% of cases, helping pre warp societies is either wasted effort or actively harmful.

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>>53359157
Trash board is actually here:

>>>/trash/

So now you know. And I bet you wish you didn't.

>>53362197
It actually makes a good amount of sense if you view it as a "gotcha" plot. Gowron was absolutely terrified Worf would come in and remove him from power and install himself as Chancellor. What better way to reduce his standing in the eyes of the Federation (muh civilians) and the Klingons (hiding behind LAWYERS! THE HONORLESS DOG!) than this incident? Too bad it didn't work out.

>>53349905
>All those cargo and shuttle bays
There's a reason we never see these on the front lines in the Dominion War. As the Miranda variants show it's not because they're flying apart at the seams.

>>53365146
The Constellation was for archeological digs and major science efforts more than just about any ship class than the Oberth and the later Intrepid. Hell, it did the Oberth's job better because it had a crew of more than a handful.

>>53362169
>I won't even try to defend Starfleet's stance of "no warp drive, no help"

There must be plenty of worlds that develop subspace communication before warp drive, and plenty that are close enough to warp-capable civilizations to notice all these sudden stars and streaks across the sky, especially during major fleet actions like the Dominion war; then you've also got worlds which end up invaded by cultures that don't obey the PD, but who reveal the existence of the Federation and other aliens as a consequence of occupation. Considering the hypothetical case of such a world during the Dominion conflict for example, once the Dominion were forced to cede the territory unconditionally and withdraw from the Alpha Quadrant, such a world on the borders of Federation space would undoubtedly be aware of the Federation, of warp drive, and so on, but not necessarily in possession of the means to create warp drive (though in some cases they might conceivably be able to maintain captured examples for a time, even if they had no idea where to begin constructing new vessels).

The PD as shown would seem to indicate that those worlds would not receive Federation contact because they have not developed functioning warp drives of their own; however, ignoring cultures which possess such drives by other means (such as Ferengi) clearly doesn't happen; nor does the standard for First Contact between the Federation and these worlds apply, because they already know of the Federation, if indirectly.

Consider the Evora; rushed to the status of Protectorate after just three years. Contacted by the USS Magellan *before* achieving warp flight - though they achieved it the following year - and brought under protection of the Federation (though full membership is implied by that status to be some way off, presumably while they fully ratify the Fed's legal requirements into their own laws) as the need for allies during the war grew.

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For a last minute, thrown together design, Constellation is a really neat ship with a definite purpose to it.

>>53365192
It was a patrol ship too. Oddly enough if you gave it a modern warp core (possibly what the Defiant has - four nacelles needs a lot of power) and shields and filled those roomy shuttlebays with Delta Flyers it'd be useful as a pocket carrier. The closest IRL equivalent to its role would be the small helicopter/amphibious focused ships like the Wasp or the Mistral.

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https://vimeo.com/217336882

Just watched this. This... works.

I've long thought there's a good movie hiding in TMP, just waiting to be edited into existence from the over-abundance of existing footage. Cutting it to 22 minutes and setting it to the soundtrack of Tron: Legacy was not something I had considered but here we are.

Given fan-edits have long been a thing, have any of you come across any good ones for TMP that maybe just cut it down to a tight hour and a half (and fix the audio balance... hell I'll take an edit just for that)?

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>>53367075
Bonus points if the edit doesn't massively cut down the Enterprise introduction, even though really that's the first thing to get chopped.

I unironically love that lumbering giant of a glory shot that goes on for 5 minutes.

>>53357042
Is anyone actually complaining that a prequel series has aliens we've never seen before?

>>53367185
Mostly I think it's because we never get to see some of the weirder ones like Arex or others when we introduce yet more aliens. I'd like to see Andorians (though they got a lot of exposure with Enterprise), Tellarites, and other species noted that we don't get to see much in live action.

>>53365523
The Prime Directive isn't "no warp drive no help". The warp drive thing is used as a convenient marker for when it's okay to initiate contact.

The Prime Directive applies to all non-Federation societies, and says only that it's Starfleet's policy not to intervene in the affairs of another culture, and to respect their laws when inside their jurisdictions.

>>53367238

Except those times when Picard uses that convenient marker to chicken out of interfering because of unintended consequences, and Riker argues that it might disrupt the "Cosmic Plan."

>>53367357
>Star Trek is inconsistent about the Prime Directive
Colour me surprised.

>>53367357
I really wish people would stop taking that out of context when a) they specifically were trying to bring up all possibilities, even metaphysical ones, b) Riker dismisses it literally his next line, and c) of all the people to consider a grander metaphysical reasoning and to understand how limited humanity is it would be the guy who briefly became a Q.

>>53367409
To be fair, it was mentioned in Drumhead that stuff like that was considered violations of the Prime Directive, and that it's entirely possible that even it can be bent or broken in reasonable ways. After all, "There can be no justice so long as laws are absolute." It's very much the spirit of the law that's more important than the letter of it.

>>53367412

Metaphysical concerns are irrelevant, because they're a.) unknowable, and b.) inapplicable because of a.).

Picard doesn't relent until he hears the message over the radio. So, basically, until he heard an actual plea for help, helping was off the table.

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>>53367556
This is Star Trek we're talking about. "Unknowable" is not an excuse.

>>53367075
That was worth watching.

>>53367357
>Riker argues for the Cosmic Plan
>Riker was briefly given Q powers a few years prior
>The Cosmic Plan is something he did or put into motion
>Doesn't tell anyone
>The Riker Plan

>>53367714
Suddenly why the man gets into every set of panties onboard makes so much sense.

>>53367714
>Riker hates his clone hitting on Deanna
>clone does hard time in a Cardassian prison
>Riker wants Deanna and his own ship
>he gets the Titan with her as counselor
This actually makes sense...

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>>53367772

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>>53367786

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>>53367804

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>>53367817

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>>53367826

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>>53367836

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>>53367843

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>>53367856

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>>53367865

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>>53367880

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>>53367886

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>>53367895

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>>53367909

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>>53367920

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>>53367933

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>>53367943

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>>53367951

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>>53367961

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>>53367970

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>>53367980

>>53367596

Uh huh. So, you should account for the unknowable through moral cowardice? Gotcha.

>>53367714

Makes sense. Riker is an ass.

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>>53367989
To be continued?

>>53368002

I'd be cool with that. Really like this Mirror take on LaForge and the rest of the gang.

>>53368002
That was neat. It's good to see the Stargazer in action.

>>53367185
People were complaining about that with ENT. No doubt we're going to see more of it.

>>53368002
Better than the novels, for sure.

>>53368285
Are you saying dominatrix Troi from Dark Mirror is worse than this one? Ree.

>>53368300
Is that what she became? The only story that I read with her in it (from Shards and Shadows) was that she was the pure maiden manager of her mom's Best Brothel in Known Space (it contained what was left of the Betazoid race) who was only pure because she had no telepathic abilities, because her mom suppressed them for some (probably evil) reason. She then got her mom killed when Picard turned off her suppression at a key moment, so she raged and got the place blowed up good (along with the Duras sisters, I guess, which was why Picard was there in the first place).
MU novels are basically "everybody except Tuvok dies".

>>53368378
There are two TNG Mirror Universes. The first, Dark Mirror, was released during TNG's run, and was completely ignored later on. It has the Empire running out of conquests in their galaxy and invading the main universe, using an Enterprise-D loaded down like it was ready for Exterminatus. Since it's Diane Duane, it's got kooky aliens (like space faring Dolphin people that can make hyper accurate maps of the galaxy), and decent writing. The other is the one you're talking about. Avoid the MU books, read the Myriad Universe collections only, they're at least interesting ideas. Like the continuation of Yesteryear!

>>53368412
Different anon, I always assumed that the DS9 Mirror universe is the canon result of Spock going native.

>>53368511
The novel assumes that Kirk either killed Spock or the rest of the Empire didn't give a fuck and killed him.

>>53368511
By STO stories, that's what happened.
Then the Empire was reforged with the help of the I.S.S. Defiant and nw it has gone back to its previous ways.
According to Leetas boasts they have by now conquered most, if not all of their own galaxy and so Leeta is now attacking our universe with a fleet of her own in an attempt to grow her own power and then go against the emperor, who at the moment is unknown persona.

In official fanfic, there was some stuff about Leeta escaping the time war and then having been discovered by the empire at large, with the emperor commanding her capture and apparently Mirror Tiaru was supposed to apprehend her.
Leeta then blew up some time agents who tried to arrest her till Tiaru would get there and then sailed with the remainder of her fleet to lord knows where.

>>53368562
What are the Roms doing in all of these Mirror Stories? I know they get mentioned once or twice in DS9, but is there anything actually about them?

>the emperor, who at the moment is unknown
I will be supremely disappointed if O'Brien isn't Emperor now.

>>53369228
The only other thing we have on mirror roms is that during one mirror event a reward for doing some shit daily was a mirror Hakeev-doff.

O'Brien's son was a MU leader in the earlier iteration of the MUs.
Then it and a whole lot of stuff got retconned when they reworked the cardassian story arc.

>>53369228
Beta canon has them fall into disarray and infighting, then they get fucked over by some stellar event or another, and the remnants join Mackenzie Calhoun's fleet.

>>53369254
Oh yes, and there are mirror romulan ships available in lock boxes at some times along with mirror klink and mirror empire ships.

>>53369228
>emperor gets paranoid
>makes deal with cardie/klinks to make superweapon (think it was thaleron-based) for them to keep them off his back
>makes superweapon
>klinks come to collect it
>lol we're going to test it on Romulus fgt
>chase scene where heroes steal device to prevent above
>klink bad guy trips, presses big red button
>gg no re
>what >>53369267 said happens

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Who /terranempire/ here?

>>53356272
>Could /pol/ even exist within the ideology of the United Federation of Planets?
As long as governments exist which prioritize the feelings of foreigners over the safety of their own citizens, /pol/ or something like it will always exist.

See the Maquis forming as a perfectly reasonable reaction to spoonhead aggression against human colonies for an example.

>>53370245
Wasn't the people who fucked up Risa when Worf and Dex were on holiday basically /pol/?

>>53357122
>>53370245
>>53370894
I think you guys are mixing /pol/ up with general counter-culture and political opposition.

The Maquis don't go around wishing for something to happen and waiting for "meme energy" to liberate their colonies. They go and take action. They rise up, organise into cells to fight a guerilla war.

The anti-fun brigade on Risa don't sit around blaming Ferengi and Romulans for all their problems. They just go and fucking take over the damned planet. With the help of a Klingon, no less.

These are examples of long-standing traditions of intervention, uprising and political unrest. They have basically nothing to do with the self-indulgent mirror-tumblr that is /pol/.

Wierd as it may seem, most actual, non-retarded conservative, nationalist and ethnocentric movements have nothing to do with /pol/ and intentionally try to avoid any association with it or other similar online communities.

>>53370967

How can you make the assumption that /pol/lacks do nothing but sit around and circlejerk on the internet, given the fact that you know next to nothing about them personally?

>>53366880
>small helicopter/amphibious focused ships like the Wasp or the Mistral
>small
>like the Wasp
>like the one that's bigger than literally everyone else's fleet carriers apart from the russians, chinks, and bongs, but they don't count.
Pretty accurate to how Starfleet is with the UFP's neighbours, actually.

>>53367768
what did he mean by this?

>>53371321
Not gonna lie, this made me giggle a little.

>>53369228
>Emperor O'Brien
fund it

>>53371321
Because the entire board is just nonsense. Every political view is espoused, contradicted and ultimately forgotten in favour of some meme. Every argument eventually becomes cyclical or caught up on some random minutiae because nobody can accept that they lost an argument. They aren't an orginisation. They don't get shit done as a group.

/Pol/ isn't a movement. It isn't even the beginning of one. At best, It's an argigate news feed with way more random racism and way less accuracy.

>>53371321
Mate have you ever been to /pol/? that's basically all that they do

>>53367786
>Buff Picard

That's just fucking perfect, mate

Why is the mirror universe stuff still popular?

Genuine question.
It's clear the writers got bored of it with DS9 and really shouldn't have done as much as they did, even though the actors clearly loved the chance to go full ham for a bit.

But it's so... trashy. Of all the alternate takes that can be had with the setting, why is the one where everyone is a murderous and conniving jerk, often with all the subtlety of a kid's show villain, still continually popular?

>>53371487

I go to /pol/. I don`t go there for political debate or to be part of a "movement". I go there for shitposting and hillarity. Where do you think we are?

Still, in this sea of piss and shit, sometimes genuine ideas are exchanged and sometimes people get together to get shit done.

>>53371943
For me? The perversion of the dream. The Federation as a brutal dictatorship that give the people of the main universe act as better people. And if we look at some of Beta canon, Terra has been like that since between the writing of the Bible and Shakespeare (which is a large span of time I'll admit, but other personalities pop up that are mostly the same as "real" life) due to some traumatic event, and that aspect is fascinating to the historian in me.

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>>53371943
Because it's fun.

>>53371943
>even though the actors clearly loved the chance to go full ham for a bit.
That's why.

Any time the actors are allowed to cut loose and have fun, it comes across to the audience and ends up being extremely memorable.

>>53372025
You're taking this out of a context, as a personal attack on your life choices. I don't care what you do with your own time.

But, as my initial comment states, /pol/ would have nothing to do with most of example thrown out as /pol/ in the 24th century in this thread. Hell, most of them are things that /pol/ could be perfectly okay with depending on context.

By your own admission it's just "shitposting and hilarity" with occasional bouts of constructive activity.

>>53370967
>The Maquis don't go around wishing for something to happen and waiting for "meme energy" to liberate their colonies.
It certainly worked in stopping Husnock attacks after just one Federation colony.
>based Kevin Uxbridge

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>>53372458
Just stop.

>>53374795
>I don't have a constructive response or counterargument
>Here's a yeem instead

>>53374795
He's not wrong though.

>>53371943
I think it has to do with people liking to indulge in a bit of frivolous grimderp once in a while.

>>53371943

Alternate history, combined with the evil double trope, scattered with a bunch of >>53372426, which adds up to >>53372040.

Ultimately, it's a fun a side thing that plays with the established characters and setting and can be something of its own thing. We get to see a side of the characters in what they could have been, but aren't.

In the original, we see Kirk win with diplomacy and reason, rather than violence and cruelty like his counterpart. And everyone gets to have a fun time hamming it up and chewing scenery. Also even minier miniskirts. What's not to like?

>>53367238
Except when they make protectorates like Bajor and Evora.

>>53367714
>Beards, comrades! In five years we will all have beards to spare! The rest of the galaxy will come to us begging for aid!

>>53377839
Bajors situation was a byproduct of the border wars with Cardassian Union, pressuring Cardassians to fuck off from Bajor makes sense when you are dealing with actively hostile nation.

>>53378312
And contacting the Evora in peacetime before they've even achieved warp drive makes sense too - if you're expecting war and know you'll need every possible ally.

But it's a breach of the prime directive to interfere *unless it is convenient to the federation*.

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Prime Dicking Directive more like.

It's like how the age limit for what counts as legal depends on where and sometimes who.

>>53378312

To add on to >>53378506's point: The Prime Directive is very much a "non-interference" policy with regard to internal matters, and since the Cardassian Union had essentially made Bajor a vassal world decades before the Fed-Cardie war, Bajor and the occupation were an internal matter.

Basically, the Federation intervenes when it's convenient for them, and hides behind the Prime Directive when it's convenient for them.

Note I am not condemning the UFP for this policy. Occasionally there are times when you want to get involved, and can't without making things worse, and there are times when you don't need to intervene, but it'll make things better for everyone if you do.

>>53378681
Large systems will inherently accrue bizarre and inconsistent laws.

>>53374518
Is that an Excelsior in the background?

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>>53366880
>>53371330
Hell, according to Memory Alpha, that may have actually happened. There were some Constellations active during and after the Dominion War, so if they were giving Defiant-tier refits to the Excelsiors (esp. the Lakota and the Malinche) it makes sense they'd stick some on the Constellations as well as the next-most-recent long range explorer class.

http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/USS_Victory

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>>53380820
Yeah I'm pretty sure that's the Lakota just tooling around. Here's the 2, side by side.

>>53371330
>Wasp
>bigger than literally everyone else's fleet carriers
get fucked, yuropoor

>>53380978
They might also been part of operation meat-shield, like the Miranda Class.

>page 10

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Okay, odd question, by why hasnt there been a Star Trek Ship that has Azipod like impulse "pods" that let the ship maneuver in radical ways?

>>53384000
Why use mechanical means when you can just have magnetic fields or whatever other space magic you have just point your thrust wherever you want?

>>53384000
Considering how Trek ships never really use intertia...

>>53384000
Most are too big. Small Federation ships like the Defiant and the Delta Flyer are super maneuverable.

>>53378506
>>53378725
Well you should remember, Bajor was independent world before Cardassian occupation and there where Bajoran refugees fleeing to Federation space. I imagine the leaders of these refugees probably asked for Federation help to solve the issue, so Federation saw an opportunity to dick with hostile nation and free oppressed people at the same time..

People allways forget that Prime Directive goes both ways, if some foreign power asks for assistance, like the Klingons did with when they where choosing a new Chancellor. Federation usually helps them out.

>>53385187
>impulse
Cardassians left Bajor due to other reasons. The UFP, who had already surrendered territory to them, waving fingers at them an calling them naughty had nothing to do with it.

>>53385269
>Cardassians left Bajor due to other reasons.
Like what? The timing indicates that it was probably the treaty with the Federation that made them leave. It's pretty clear they didn't want to, and it's not like the Bajoran resistance was actually anywhere close to pushing them out.
I know we've gone on and on about the the wrongness of the Federation giving Cardassia colonies and whatever (even though the Cardassians supposedly gave some up too), but I could definitely see the Federation giving up some good colony worlds - there's a reason the colonists went to them in the first place - if the spoonheads gave up Bajor in return.

>>53385269
>>53385460

What I got from that treaty was the Federation was really generous with the deal they made with Cardassians as everything seems to point out that Cardassian military got it's ass handed out by Starfleet.

I do believe the Federation people who signed the treaty allways expected the federation colonists of the planets given to Cardassians to move back to Federation space and settle another planet afterwards.

>>53386679
>I do believe the Federation people who signed the treaty allways expected the federation colonists of the planets given to Cardassians to move back to Federation space and settle another planet afterwards.

This. To a state that has plenty of free space, as well as the capacity to reliably terraform worlds, the idea that someone would choose to remain on a world where they are not safe and are not wanted is alien. And I think we can wager that a fair few colonists were willing to relocate on those grounds. It was likely only the well-established colonies, that had developed a sense of communal identity, that chose to remain and fight.

>>53385460
The Cardassian evacuation of Bajor was a separate issue. It was likely exacerbated and expedited by the Federation negotiations, however the move to abandon Bajor had begun years prior, as we learn from various Cardassians in DS9.

Dukat, for instance, said he opposed the move by the Detapa council to pull out. It seems to have been a sticking point between the High Command and Detapa Council for some time.

In "Cardassians" we learn that Kotan Pa'Dar, after his tenure on Najor, having lost his wife and son, was one of the prominent Politicians that backed evacuation.

The Cardassian evacuation was an internal decision to leave Bajor, owing to untenable tactical and economic situations on the ground. No doubt the reconciliatory period between the Federation and Cardassians played a part, but the Federation did not negotiate for Bajoran independence.

It was only after the provisional government took over that the Federation were invited to take over Terok Nor.

>>53381689
I'd say this is more likely. The Excelsior was proven, durable design, still regularly in service by the 2370's. The Miranda, similarly, had a reputation as a fleet workhorse and was only really reaching it's technical limits by the mid 2360's. You can make a similar case for the Oberth.

The Constellation, on the other hand, had already left regular service, well on the way to being fully phased out. The Stargazer was lost, the Hathaway retired. She was, to use Picard's own word, "an overworked, underpowered vessel that was always on the verge of flying apart at the seams".

If Starfleet wanted a pocket carrier, they'd have been better off converting a Nebula, or a New Orleans to suit their needs.

>>53370020
Is there any reason for the 2 different Terran Empire flags? 1 shows the Americas while the other shows the full land masses of the world.

>>53389415
Even in the mirror universe there are salty eurofags.

>>53389415
The original concept, put forward in Mirror Mirror, had the Empire as a Fascist American state that had conquered Earth after the Second World War.

In "In a Mirror, Darkly" this idea was canonically discredited, when they discussed the Empire having endured for over millenia, as a sort of successor to the Roman Empire, hence the map was changed to the traditional European format.

As for the in-setting reason, I don't know, maybe Mirror Sato a.k.a best Sato decided to move the Imperial Capital to Brazil, seeing as Prime Sato loved Brazil so much. Or maybe Tucker moved it to Florida or some shit.

>>53381454
>"literally"
>in response to a comment that outlines 3 exceptions

Jesus fucking Christ, anon. Are you trying to make is all look like retards?

>>53389757
>The Impiril Sit-ee o' Jicksinvil, Flur'da

Oh please Q no

Speaking of mirror universe.
What do you guys think of this?

https://youtu.be/dJf2ovQtI6w

>>53389581
fucking kek
t. salty eurofag

>>53380978
>they were giving Defiant-tier refits to the Excelsiors

I don't think the buffed up Lakota posed any real tactical threat to the Defiant. They just hit harder than an Excelsior was supposed to hit, and the Defiant could not hit back.

>>53392891
I'll have to rewatch the episode, but I though the point was that the 2 ships were evenly matched and committing would have cost the lives of both crews.

>>53369228
>I will be supremely disappointed if O'Brien isn't Emperor now.
If I remember correctly, there was a older STO mission where you fight Mirror!Yoshi, and he claims Smiley was either the Emperor or a high ranking official

>>53392810
What the fuck is that? I don't think I've seen a design like that before.

>>53395404
Looks like a Centaur class.
Could be a kitbash though.

Why do some Federation ships have three or four nacelles? Do they work better than two, and if so, why don't all the other ships have them?

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>>53395494
Because more nacelles = more cool, and Starfleet is a bunch of squares.

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>>53395801
my fucking eyes

>>53395801
So the Dominion fucked the Seaquest and some how made a federation vessel?

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>>53395494

The TNG Tech Manual states that two was the most "optimal for power generation and vehicle control" purposes (pg 65).

However, browsing through the warp propulsion section, I can make some conjecture:

Two nacelles are needed for two "balanced" warp fields, which allow the ship to maneuver at warp. So, a ship with a single nacelle is likely not as maneuverable at warp speeds (note that this probably doesn't impact her impulse maneuverability because the warp field is only being used to lower her effective mass, not propel the ship).

The warp propulsion system works by creating nested layers of warp fields around the ship and moving space around the ship itself. The faster the fields move space around the ship, the higher the warp factor (and according to the TNG Tech Manual, this is achieved by turning on and off the warp coils in the nacelles sequentially from fore to aft).

I would assume that you could stay at higher warp for longer with more warp field coils, reducing the load on each nacelle. It might also be more maneuverable at warp because there are effectively more warp fields to manipulate.

By contrast, the single nacelled ship would need to run more plasma through the field coils to achieve the power necessary to reach the transitional points necessary to cross a warp threshold (see pg 55). This would probably put a lot of wear and tear on the one nacelle, and I bet she can't stay at warp for as long before needed to cool down or be serviced.

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>>53397675

A third nacelle probably creates an imbalance in the warp fields that has to be accounted for. It may not actually be more maneuverable in the sense that four nacelles might be, but it likely allows higher warp for longer and can probably cross the warp thresholds faster.

>>53395801
please no more dyson ships

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>>53395404
>>53395477
Yeah, it's a Centaur. With one of the new Skins, I might add, makes her look pretty nice.

>>53397903
kek

>>53399254

Why does it have a prolapsed rectum for a deflector dish?

>>53399450
>>53399653
I think the question is why don't you?

>>53399254
Yeah, nah. Looks too stubby, too thick, and her engines are just a fucking disgrace.

>>53399704

Teach me then, sensei.

>>53392891
>>53393347
Yeah, the Lakota does some serious damage to the Defiant, and without ever using her Quantum torpedoes. And she takes numerous hits of the Defiant's space-Brrrrrrrt, the sort of thing that one-shots BoPs and Dominion attack ships.

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>>53395801
Please, that's some entry-level nacelle stacking.

>>53401289

The huge vertical nacelle pylon is just antimatter reactors to power the nacelle modules. Too bad she only has two impulse engines.

>>53367989
Wait, why the fuck wouldn't the Terrans use/develop their own cloaking tech?

>>53403896
They are not very clever people.

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>>53401289
and on the other end of the spectrum, the USS Schooner.

>>53404884

"How the hell are we going to fit this in the hangar?"

>>53404969
you don't, it has travel pod access and transporters. that's your in an out. Thing is like 120m long thanks to that nacelle. I mean come on, its a Currier ship.

>>53404993

>she'll do .5 past lightspeed
>made the Nu New Delhi run in 12 parsecs

>>53404993
>Currier

>>53404884
Why not just use the bog-standard Shuttle-runabout frame?

>>53406211
It's likely faster. Plus it seems like it could fit a larger compliment.

>>53401289
T H I C C
>>53404884
T H I N N

>>53400998
This is why the Excelsior is the best class. It's the ATX PC case of spaceframes. You can keep upgrading it pretty much forever, and it looks good.

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Im gonna bump this thread with some new screenshots i took.

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>>53409502

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>>53409542

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>>53409556
And the last one.

>>53409502
Deets on that larger ship, camaraden?

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>>53410069
It's a prototype dreadnought cruiser.
It the top reward in the lockbox before the current one.

http://sto.gamepedia.com/Prototype_Dreadnought_Cruiser

>>53410268
Was supposed to say, it was the top reward, but a random brain fart and a battle in game distracted me.

>>53353544
Boldly going where no one wants to go!

>>53412293
I remember reading somewhere that the Saratoga Variant was an upgrade from the old Soyuz class.

Top 10 episodes, across all the series?

>>53410268
Its also a TOS version of the Lifetime subscriber ship.

>>53412293
>>53412728
I'm so happy that forward weapons fire from those side pods, finally I can have the TMP era gunboat I've dreamed of since reading Jackill's in the 90s.

>>53412728
Wasn't she supposed to be a cargo Variant?

>>53407958
The Lakota Refit was the last of the Excelsior's 5 planned refits over a century. But yeah, she could pretty much keep up with the latest Starfleet designs.

Apologies for spoonfeeding but can someone give me a rundown on the different Star Trek RPGs? Which one is mechanically the best and/or easiest to get into?

>>53365523
>subspace communication
Sure, I could see that happening. I don't think any of the writers ever thought of it, though, so if it ever happens it's rare. It would probably be cause for someone to apply for an exception in the prime directive, though just enough to open diplomatic relations and not enough to start handing out technology.

>stars and streaks across the sky
Not without some fucking amazing telescopes that just happen to be pointing in the right direction at the right time, plus it would take a while for the light to reach their planet.

>other civilizations
The Federation doesn't really have control over that sort of thing, and unless they want to try to police their neighbors as well there's not much they can do.

>the Dominion
That's assuming that the Dominion would have gone out of their way to make contact with pre-warp civilizations during the war for the alpha quadrant. I doubt it would have been considered an effective use of resources.

As for similar situations, that falls under the same heading as "the Feddies can't police the whole quadrant."

In any event, I can see why they would want something like the prime directive so you don't have conflicting opinions all over the place messing each other up, and don't run the risk of primitive savages buying/stealing ships and weapons and trying to kill everyone. I wouldn't necessarily have that same policy if I'd been in charge, but I can see where they're coming from.

>>53419939
>That's assuming that the Dominion would have gone out of their way to make contact with pre-warp civilizations during the war for the alpha quadrant. I doubt it would have been considered an effective use of resources.

The Doms don't have a directive to prevent contamination. They'd likely just take what they need. Cardassians too - it's what they always argued they were doing with Bajor, uplifting a backward civilization.

What happens when one of these other powers pulls back and leaves a world technologically uplifted and aware of their surroundings on the borders of, or potentially within, Federation territories? Are they grandfathered in or does the PD still apply and they have to achieve Warp before they can be officially contacted?

Imagine a world that only possesses banks of photon torpedo launchers. A defensive stronghold given up in peacetime; warp drives are gone, but the populace know they live in a hostile universe. They also have enough weapons and shields to make taking the planet hell, and observation indicates they are extremely xenophobic thanks to the occupation, likely to launch an invasion of neighboring systems as soon as they're able.

Does the federation leave them until they can acquire warp by some means, or invade?

>>53421034
>The Doms don't have a directive to prevent contamination
I know, I was saying they probably wouldn't bother making contact unless there was something worth their while (which seems unlikely for a pre-warp civilization, unless we're talking about raw materials here).

>What happens when one of these other powers pulls back
I would assume that's a bit of a gray area in the prime directive, though the rule of thumb I'd assume is in play is "if they know about other species, we can maybe talk to them and it won't be terribad," plus maybe some sort of Federation rehab teams sent to help them cope with stuff, but there would probably be a trade ban until they got actual warp drive technology.

>Does the federation leave them until they can acquire warp by some means, or invade?
Why the fuck would they invade people who aren't engaged in actual hostilities against them? Furthermore, as long as you stay out of the system they CAN'T engage in hostilities, so just leave them alone until you think you have an opportunity to open up diplomatic relations (or they develop warp drives and start shooting at you).

>likely to launch an invasion of neighboring systems as soon as they're able.
And the Federation would deal with that then. Maybe station some tougher defenses around that area just in case, but they're very deliberately not the aggressors unless it's 100% necessary.

>>53395801
That doesn't look terribad when everything's folded up, and the splitting nacelle idea is actually kind of clever (I could easily see some kind of technobabble about how it makes the ship more maneuverable or something).

Too bad it's clearly a Sovereign ripoff (I like Sovereigns, but come up with your own damn design) and looks like ass when everything's open.

>>53419199
Right now, the easiest to get into is GURPS Prime Diective, but Modiphius' new offering looks to be relatively simple, for the sake of flow.

Personally though, I prefer LUG, partially because it's got such a huge amount addons that deal with pretty much every race.

>>53421141
Are their Soveriegn spinoff designs? Like hot all of the Enterprises have a smaller multi-mission Variant and so on.

>>53367185
There were some alt-fucks complaining about "white genocide" and "SJWs gone mad" because of the asian captain.
why the fuck are those people following a franchise that represents everything they hate, and always did so?
Also, Sisko

>>53361737
The Prime Directive is basically a really great idea, but the TNG writers turned it to disgusting horseshit.

>>53423992
My problem with the Prime Directive is that it's too vague. It should only apply to pre-solar system travel societies not if the Klingons or whoever are in a civil war or something.

>>53423911
The Nova class, kinda sorta. I think that's the closest you'll get in canon.

>>53423911
The Nova and Luna sort of fit that bill, but there's no Sovereign saucer attached onto a different hull designs out there that I'm aware of.

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>>53425382
>>53423911

I found an ancient kitbash that doesn't look awful.

But I think in general the shape doesn't do it an favours for blending into different designs due to the integrated look of it and its secondary hull on the sovereign. It's just not as easy to plug together in terms of parts as the older more distinct shapes.

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>>53423911
The Phalanx-class is basically a proto-Sovereign with more Galaxy-class inspired nacelles and secondary hull.

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>>53425762

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>>53425798

>>53425762
>>53425798
>>53425832
Reminds me of that Galaxy-Intrepid hybrid that gets posted here sometimes.

>>53347835
>>53365552
>>53367122
>>53374518
>>53378681
>>53380978
>>53381037
>>53392810
>>53398695
>>53409502
>>53409542
>>53409556
>>53409578
>>53410268
>>53412293
>>53425762
>>53425798
>>53425832
God damn, but if Star Trek ain't the most aesthetically pleasing science fiction around then I don't know what is.

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>>53425798
>>53425762

That's a well designed ship. Kinda like something that could have been kitbashed for filling in, if they'd been doing that for the Dominion War scenes, but with a bit more work on it than the Wolf359 wrecks.

>Star Trek Adventures
I've never played a pen and paper RPG before, but I'm a huge ST dweeb and I think I might take the plunge for this.

I signed up for the playtest shit linked in the OP, but I'm not sure what I do now. Wait for them to email a pdf or something? What do I need to actually sit down and play this crap?

>>53425139
First of all, that.
Voyager refused fucking trade with space travelling societies, why?
Second, the idea of a "cosmic plan" or "natural selection" is equally idiotic, basically religious, and very arrogant (oh, YOU know the cosmic plan, or YOU think you're important enough to change it?)
Second, it should only apply to landing on some random planet and giving them black powder or something, or supporting a random civilization because you think they're the best choice, basically PD should mean "no contact with pre-warp civs for no reason, and you need a REALLY bloody good reason, like their planet dying or so".
In the old series Kirk constantly intervened, and it was always the right choice, since those people were often in the process of ruining themselves, or were already compromised.
Worst, they got ridiculous anal about it and it became something like a goddam cult, including "we rather die than break the PD even just a little".

>>53426673
It's certainly very pleasing, but I would avoid superlatives.
Science fiction and fantasy are often very big on aesthetics.

>>53427101
I get that, But I genuinely feel something looking at stuff like >>53381037 and >>53367122

On a related note, I'm new to these threads, who does those starship painting-y things? I've looked online for them and I ain't found shit.

>>53363537
Sarek was against the PD cos he thought it immoral.

>>53427696
They're done by an anon on this thread, and they're not paintings. They're screencaps of Star Trek Online that the anon has messed with in photoshop.

They do look great, though. He done good.

>>53427052
>Second, the idea of a "cosmic plan" or "natural selection" is equally idiotic, basically religious, and very arrogant (oh, YOU know the cosmic plan, or YOU think you're important enough to change it?)
Well then it's a real good fucking thing that they immediately dismissed that idea right after bringing it up and that you're not an idiot beating a context-less dead horse for no reason.

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General Order 1 ("Prime Directive")

As the right of each sentient species to live in accordance with its normal cultural evolution is considered sacred, no Starfleet personnel, Federation citizen and/or representative may interfere with the normal and healthy development of alien life and culture. Such interference includes introducing superior knowledge, strength, or technology to a world whose society is incapable of handling such advantages wisely. Starfleet personnel may not violate this Prime Directive, even to save their lives and/or their ship/installation, unless they are acting to right an earlier violation or an accidental contamination of said culture. This directive takes precedence over any and all other considerations, and carries with it the highest moral obligation.

inb4 'not canon'

>>53428797
General Order 24

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>>53429818
If a commanding officer deems that a planet has been culturally contaminated to a point where correction is no longer viable and said culture now poses a direct threat to Starfleet personnel or Federation civilians, he may order the destruction of a planet’s surface to occur within a time limit set upon invocation.

>>53425762
>>53425798
>>53425832
>soverbassador
I came

>>53425762
>>53425798
>>53425832
It doesn't matter what you picture it doing.

A ship that combines what looks like the best bits of a Sovereign, Galaxy and Ambassador could be just chugging along at warp 4 doing nothing exciting and it would still look like best ship ever made.

It's basically sex with a warp drive.

>>53428599


>PICARD: It is no longer a matter of how wrong Data was, or why he did it. The dilemma exists. We have to discuss the options. And please talk freely.
>WORF: There are no options. The Prime Directive is not a matter of degrees. It is an absolute.
>PULASKI: I have a problem with that kind of rigidity. It seems callous and even a little cowardly.
>PICARD: Doctor, I'm sure that is not what the Lieutenant meant, but in a situation like this, we have to be cautious. What we do today may profoundly affect upon the future. If we could see every possible outcome
>RIKER: We'd be gods, which we're not. If there is a cosmic plan, is it not the height of hubris to think that we can, or should, interfere?
>LAFORGE: So what are you saying? That the Dremans are fated to die?
>RIKER: I think that's an option we should be considering.
>LAFORGE: Consider it considered, and rejected.

Yeah. Great they completely abandon the idea. Oh wait, here comes Troi!

>TROI: If there is a cosmic plan, are we not a part of it? Our presence at this place at this moment in time could be a part of that fate.
>LAFORGE: Right, and it could be part of that plan that we interfere.

And Riker joins again!

>RIKER: Well that eliminates the possibility of fate.

I think we can firmly establish Riker is an idiot at this point.

>DATA: But Commander, the Dremans are not a subject for philosophical debate. They are a people.
PICARD: So we make an exception in the deaths of millions.
PULASKI: Yes.
PICARD: And is it the same situation if it's an epidemic, and not a geological calamity?
PULASKI: Absolutely.

Data, LaForge, and Pulaski have to argue against this nonsense and treat it seriously. The reason people keep bringing this up is because it SHOULD NEVER HAVE COME UP IN THE EPISODE.

>>53431458

If there is a cosmic plan, destiny, or fate, it is by its very nature unknowable [insert joke about Riker being a Q here, and the rebuttal, that said Qiker is a dick], and without specific knowledge of the future outcome of this particular situation, it can safely be ignored.

It's essentially irrelevant to the situation at hand. What will happen will happen regardless if you believe in fate, destiny, or a cosmic plan. The best you can do is evaluate a situation in the present, and make what you believe to be the proper practical, ethical, moral, or reasonable choice given your options and information.

>PICARD: And is it the same situation if it's an epidemic, and not a geological calamity?
>PULASKI: Absolutely.
>PICARD: How about a war? If generations of conflict is killing millions, do we interfere? Ah, well, now we're all a little less secure in our moral certitude. And what if it's not just killings. If an oppressive government is enslaving millions? You see, the Prime Directive has many different functions, not the least of which is to protect us. To prevent us from allowing our emotions to overwhelm our judgement.
>PULASKI: My emotions are involved. Data's friend is going to die. That means something.
>WORF: To Data.
PULASKI: Does that invalidate the emotion?
LAFORGE: What if the Dremans asked for our help?
DATA: Yes. Sarjenka's transmission could be viewed as a call for help.
PICARD: Sophistry.

They're in trouble, but we won't help until they directly ask us for help.

>PULASKI: I'll buy that excuse. We're all jigging madly on the head of a pin anyway.
>WORF: She cannot ask for help from someone she does not know.
>DATA: She knows me.
>RIKER: What a perfectly vicious little circle.

Why don't you tell us your Cosmic Plan then, Qiker?

>DATA: We are going to allow her to die, are we not?
>PICARD: Data, I want you to sever the contact with Drema Four.

>>53431545

(Data goes to a wall panel and taps in commands)
>COMPUTER: Isolating frequency.
>SARJENKA [OC]: Data. Data, where are you? Why won't you answer? Are you angry me? Please, please, I'm so afraid. Data, Data, where are you?
>PICARD: Wait. Oh, Data. Your whisper from the dark has now become a plea. We cannot turn our backs.

Picard is a hypocrite. She doesn't even directly ask for help. She's just afraid and wants to know why Data won't talk to her. Where's your Cosmic Plan and Prime Directive as an absolute now Picard?

>>53431545
>>53431458
This is the ultimate in moral cowardice.

I could help them with no risk to myself. But I won't. I'll look away so I don't have to watch them die and I'll hide behind the letter of the law so I can't be held legally accountable. If I can't see it it doesn't happen.

>>53431083
Shame it never shows up in anything but the Ships of the Line calendars.
I would kill for Eaglemoss to do an issue of the Starship Collection magazine on it, but that line-up is looking rather dull for the rest of the year at least.

>>53431589

Contrast this with the scene in TOS from "For the World is Hollow And I Have Touched the Sky"

>SPOCK: Captain, informing these people they're on a ship may be in violation of the Prime Directive of Starfleet Command.
>KIRK: No. The people of Yonada may be changed by the knowledge, but it's better than exterminating them.
>SPOCK: Logical, Captain.
>KIRK: And the three billion on Daran Five.
>SPOCK: Also logical, Captain.

Personally, I think it speaks for itself.

>>53431458
>RIKER: We'd be gods, which we're not. If there is a cosmic plan, is it not the height of hubris to think that we can, or should, interfere?
>TROI: If there is a cosmic plan, are we not a part of it? Our presence at this place at this moment in time could be a part of that fate.
>LAFORGE: Right, and it could be part of that plan that we interfere.
>RIKER: Well that eliminates the possibility of fate.
That's the only part of the script relevant to your tantrum. Riker merely puts forward an idea, they discuss the idea, and everyone including Riker rejects it. From that point forward any idea of "fate" or a "cosmic plan" is ignored and never brought up again. Your tantrum is just beating a dead horse.

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>>53431956
Not that guy but the fact that they even brought it up for serious consideration at all is pretty fucking damning. And if it wasn't brought up seriously is worse, because it means they are being flippant with the lives of billions almost like the gods of ancient times great in power but petty.

>>53431956

Riker is an idiot for even bringing it up. You can say "they were spitballing" all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that it should never have been considered. At all. Data even responds to Riker's "giving up" on the argument.

>DATA: But Commander, the Dremans are not a subject for philosophical debate. They are a people.

Data, LaForge, and Pulaski all know this line of thinking is bullshit, it's only Riker, Troi, and Picard who are willing to entertain it. Worf is just being his normal TNG self with adhering to the letter of the law.

Your attempts to claim that this is a "tantrum" rather than calling out the episode on its stupidity are getting stale. Tell us all why we should seriously factor in the Cosmic Plan, fate, destiny, or predestination at all when considering whether or not to help someone who is about to be injured/killed by events we can prevent and/or mitigate at no cost to ourselves and without any lasting harm to the person or persons requiring out help.

>>53432083
>>53432201
1) One (1) person brought it up and pretty much everyone else shot it down.
2) Said person briefly became a god (in essence) so it's within character for him to bring it up as a possibility, even if he didn't agree with it.
3) This was in a meeting where it was explicitly stated that any and all viewpoints, suggestions and possibilities were to be brought up for discussion, bar none.
4) THIS IS STAR TREK, especially Star Trek where Roddenberry still had influence. I'm pretty sure you could make two or three full seasons where the crew encounters some kind of cosmic godlike being.
5) Your second sentence is exactly the lead-in: who are they to meddle with the lives of "lesser beings" as if they are gods? This is dismissed with most of the crew wanting to provide help, to which the viewpoint shifts to what kind of help, if any, they can provide without making things worse.

The outcome of the episode is that they help to prevent the species from going extinct, but specifically try to minimize their influence so as to not contaminate the culture of the aliens. Just because a character says a thing does not mean that the writers are endorsing that thing as being correct. And finally, it should be highlighted that Starfleet considered their acts to be a violation of the Prime Directive, but not one that required disciplinary measures. In other words "yeah this is technically against the letter of the law but not against the spirit, we're not a group that goes around letting people die heartlessly."

>it's only Riker, Troi, and Picard who are willing to entertain it
Troi is the one who shuts him down, Riker immediately drops it, Picard doesn't even mention it. You're seriously reaching for excuses to shit on something irrelevant.

>>53432239
>we're not a group that goes around letting people die heartlessly."

You have to be fucking joking. You have to be seriously fucking joking. The entire episode of Homeward was Enterprise letting an entire sapient species die out when they could have done something and Picard was ready to let Data's pen pal to die afraid and alone until he heard her voice and had an attack of the feels.

>Just because a character says a thing does not mean that the writers are endorsing that thing as being correct.

I don't think that anyone here is actually accusing the Star Trek writers of being racial/cultural supremacists.

>3) This was in a meeting where it was explicitly stated that any and all viewpoints, suggestions and possibilities were to be brought up for discussion, bar none.

So the viewpoint of letting theology dictate policy is now considered worth discussing in the UFP? Because that's what it is at that point.

>>53432239

>1) One (1) person brought it up and pretty much everyone else shot it down.

Categorically untrue:

>RIKER: We'd be gods, which we're not. If there is a cosmic plan, is it not the height of hubris to think that we can, or should, interfere?
>LAFORGE: So what are you saying? That the Dremans are fated to die?
>RIKER: I think that's an option we should be considering.

>TROI: If there is a cosmic plan, are we not a part of it? Our presence at this place at this moment in time could be a part of that fate.

Picard allows this entire line of thinking to get to this point. It's not until after this that Riker concedes his argument is stupid.

>2) Said person briefly became a god (in essence) so it's within character for him to bring it up as a possibility, even if he didn't agree with it.

Then why doesn't he share his Cosmic Plan rather than giving up on the argument?

>3) This was in a meeting where it was explicitly stated that any and all viewpoints, suggestions and possibilities were to be brought up for discussion, bar none.

Doesn't address the stupidity of Riker's argument, or that it was entertained at all.

>4) THIS IS STAR TREK, especially Star Trek where Roddenberry still had influence. I'm pretty sure you could make two or three full seasons where the crew encounters some kind of cosmic godlike being.

Irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

>5) Your second sentence is exactly the lead-in: who are they to meddle with the lives of "lesser beings" as if they are gods? This is dismissed with most of the crew wanting to provide help, to which the viewpoint shifts to what kind of help, if any, they can provide without making things worse.

The cognitive dissonance is strong here. Riker is arguing that they shouldn't get involved to save lives because there might be a Cosmic Plan that they'd be disrupting, not that it might have unintended consequences.

>>53432549

Furthermore, Picard goes on a tirade about how if the situation were more complicated, they'd be on shakier ground for their intent to help. He's trying to shut them down, not discuss how much help to provide.

>The outcome of the episode is that they help to prevent the species from going extinct, but specifically try to minimize their influence so as to not contaminate the culture of the aliens. Just because a character says a thing does not mean that the writers are endorsing that thing as being correct. And finally, it should be highlighted that Starfleet considered their acts to be a violation of the Prime Directive, but not one that required disciplinary measures. In other words "yeah this is technically against the letter of the law but not against the spirit, we're not a group that goes around letting people die heartlessly."

Irrelevant to the discussion at hand. And also an incorrect reading of the episode. Picard only helps when:

(Data goes to a wall panel and taps in commands)
>COMPUTER: Isolating frequency.
>SARJENKA [OC]: Data. Data, where are you? Why won't you answer? Are you angry me? Please, please, I'm so afraid. Data, Data, where are you?
>PICARD: Wait. Oh, Data. Your whisper from the dark has now become a plea. We cannot turn our backs.

>Troi is the one who shuts him down, Riker immediately drops it, Picard doesn't even mention it. You're seriously reaching for excuses to shit on something irrelevant.

Wrong. Read it again. She's taking his line of thinking and using it to argue for the other side. That's all. She doesn't shut him down. It's the fact that his argument can be used to argue both sides and is therefore meaningless that ultimately gets him to concede.

You also haven't answered the question: Why should Riker's initial line of thinking been considered seriously at all? I think it's because you don't have an argument for that, because you know it's rubbish and always was.

>>53432549
>"Categorically untrue"
>proceeds to quote dialogue that proves me right.
Picard saying nothing is irrelevant because he doesn't need to. LaForge and Troi immediately disagree with him, and Riker concedes. Pulaski and Data also disagree even if they didn't reference that directly. Worf doesn't give two shits about any idea of fate, he's against it because it's the letter of the (mortal) law. So yes, it's safe to say nobody, not even Riker, believes in the idea of fate limiting their actions.

>Then why doesn't he share his Cosmic Plan rather than giving up on the argument?
I didn't say "his" Cosmic Plan dingbat, he was a Q for what amounts to a cup of coffee, but that also gives him the perspective to know just how limited in scope humans really are.

And for the upteenth time, he drops the fucking idea immediately after bringing it up, which obviously indicates he didn't strongly believe it. If you want to keep beating a dead horse arguing that Riker and everyone else is a retard just because Riker was basically playing devil's advocate then you're basically jerking yourself off at this point.

>>53432632

If he didn't strongly believe in it, why bring it up? What does it add to the discussion?

>>53432663
Because by bringing something up for the sake of argument, even if you don't agree with it, you let people state why that thing is wrong so it's obvious what the reasons for it being wrong are. This is a concept that goes back to the Greeks, possibly earlier.

A lawyer would phrase it as "Assuming, arguendo, that there is a cosmic fate, our being here would be part of said fate, therefore it's not worth considering."

>>53432727

So it adds nothing and serves only to belabor the point that it wasn't worth considering.

>>53432727
And if you haven't already come to that conclusion when you think Cosmic Plan on your own you shouldn't be in a position to be discussing the lives of billions.

Aziraphale: "You can't second-guess ineffability, I always say." - Good Omens, Neil Gaiman & Terry Pratchett

>>53432781
>>53432808
>cosmic plans aren't worth considering
>literal gods and sheit exist
Sure, you can dismiss it easily based on whatever you want, but it's still something to mention as a possibility. You wouldn't want to upset some Q who put you in a position to save one of his pet species, and then not, just because of your fedora.

>>53432879

Even if we proceed on the assumption that divinities are real, their plans are unknowable, and therefore irrelevant.

Or are you really arrogant enough to think that by bringing up a divinity or their cosmic plan that you can divine their intent or their ultimate goals? The only sensible thing is to proceed as though there isn't one because you'll never what the plan is, the intent is, or the goals. You're not a god.

>>53432879
The Q are either apathetic or petty. The apathetic ones won't fuck with you regardless of what you do and the petty ones will fuck with you for whimsy and boredom.

This seems to be par for the course for most of the god-like beings in Star Trek.

The end result is that you can do nothing and possibly earn their detrimental attention or do something and earn their detrimental attention. The only thing that changes is that you acted like a decent human being.

Against the infinite dark horizon of the ever retreating Final Frontier neither means anything because the universe itself is indifferent. Or it means everything because it's all you ultimately have and the universe can form no opinions and the god-like things evidently have no opinions worth listening to.

Does anyone have that /stg/ bingo template around? Could we add "autistic screeching over the Prime Directive" to it?

>>53432923

I want to add on to my statement here:

If the gods come down from on high and tell you what they want, then obviously that's a different matter. But using the potential that it might upset a Q or other godlike being as an argument for or against an action is just as much moral cowardice as using the Prime Directive as a paper shield to wash your hands of an uncomfortable situation.

>>53432998

>The only thing that changes is that you acted like a decent human being.

This. This is what matters.

>>53433018

Technically speaking, just discussing Trek is autistic screeching. It would be redundant.

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>Kirk defeats Khan by using the 3 dimensional nature of space combat against a man more used to naval battles on a 2d plane
>DS9, they fight with Napoleonic era battle lines and massed ships in close formation
>mfw Sisko sent dozens of Fighters class ship crew to their deaths, in a feeble attempt to bait disciplined professional spoonhead and jem'hadar soldiers, when he could have just flown over or around them.
Presumably military historians are banned like genetic augmentation.

>>53433114
Context is key here, we're using the old 4chan "everything other than my specific version of my obsession is autism" meter instead of normal measurements.

>>53432781
>>53432808
Thinking something is right or wrong is a lot different from understanding why it's right or wrong, and the latter is often far more important than the former because it can inform future lines of thinking.

Yes, the idea of a cosmic plan is stupid, but why? That's the point they're discussing. A cosmic plan is stupid because, even if it does exist, humans would be part of it.

You can also apply this to Picard's stance. Yes, helping people is good, but if you go off of what, say, Pulaski wants, then you're just doing what you emotionally think is right without considering the consequences, which can be even worse. So if you consider the stance "okay but here are some reasons why this is a bad idea", even for the sake of argument, then you can refine your plans to ensure you don't fuck up. Simply considering those positions is not moral cowardice.

>>53423981
Thank fuck I'm not the only person that thinks this.

On the side, I find it very surprising that I agree with any of you on a real world, shit-that-matters level.

>>53433371

There's a huge gulf of difference between "irrelevant argument for the sake of arguing it" and "we need to consider the consequences before making a decision to get involved".

Understanding why the argument is bad or good should be up to the audience, not spoonfed to them. Ultimately, what I get out of Riker's argument is that it was brought up for the audience's sake, rather than for any meaningful reason in the episode. And as a result, it brings the episode down.

They waste time discussing something that anyone with an ounce of critical thinking would have dismissed without presenting it as an option. It doesn't matter if you believe in a divinity or not: Unknowable things cannot be accounted for, so the practical solution is to focus on the things you can.

>>53433490
>Understanding why the argument is bad or good should be up to the audience, not spoonfed to them.
This is the exact opposite of how Star Trek writing has worked. The whole point of the conference room format is for characters to bring up points for the audience's sake, and then the captain makes a decision, which itself is just an expanded version of Spock and McCoy's arguing in the original.

>>53433571

See: >>53431814

Go watch some more TOS man. They don't argue over stuff that doesn't matter to their immediate circumstances. Never once does Kirk say "Would doing [x] anger [Trelane/Apollo/other godlike being]?"

>>53433601
>They don't argue over stuff that doesn't matter to their immediate circumstances.
Yeah, because there was only three of them, not six or seven.

And besides, you're bringing up one five second snippet from one episode and acting like it's indicative of the entire series, or even the entire episode itself. It's brought up and then dropped. That's it. It was never seriously considered, only argued against.

>>53433601

Where [x] is any situation not directly and obviously involving a godlike being. Because I know someone, somewhere will be like "hurrdurr what about that one time with [episode dealing with godlike being]".

>>53433653

That it was brought up at all means they took it seriously enough to discuss it.

>>53433683
>they
No.

>>53433697

So Riker took it seriously enough to bring it up, and the rest of them took it seriously enough to respond to him rather than saying "That's irrelevant to the situation at hand, Commander" is not in fact, "they"?

Even if I concede the point, Riker still took it seriously enough to bring it up. It doesn't matter that he drops it. He still brought it up. The executive officer of the flagship of the Federation thought it was important enough to discuss the implications of a cosmic plan/fate/destiny that he brought it up during a discussion about whether or not they should violate the Prime Directive.

>>53433750
"What if" is not taking something seriously. You're ridiculously overstating it. The serious part of his argument was the reminder that we can't see all possibilities and we're not gods, that's all"

>>53433795

Well, you're wrong:

>LAFORGE: So what are you saying? That the Dremans are fated to die?
>RIKER: I think that's an option we should be considering.
>I think that's an option we should be considering.
>We should seriously consider that the Dremans are fated to die, and because of this, we should not interfere.

>>53433844
Yeah, and then it was considered for all of two seconds and then immediately considered resolved.

>>53433868

Only because LaForge uses Riker's logic against him.

>LAFORGE: Consider it considered, and rejected.
>TROI: If there is a cosmic plan, are we not a part of it? Our presence at this place at this moment in time could be a part of that fate.
>LAFORGE: Right, and it could be part of that plan that we interfere.

Riker is an idiot for even bringing it up. It's still a stupid waste of time that doesn't resolve anything other than "this argument is dumb, why are we having it? Oh right, the XO is a moron."

>>53433888
Consider the following: imagine if the system had been in some other corner of the galaxy, outside of Federation space, away from anyone else, with no space-fairing civilizations coming across them. The planet is reduced to rubble, and the civilization becomes extinct. It is only because the Enterprise was there, and even then only because Data happened to intercept a radio transmission, that they were in any position to do anything. The question is essentially, "what makes us so special that we alone decide their fate?" Pure chance that they happen to be at the right place at the right time?

>>53433949

We're special in that we're here, now, and can do something positive about the situation. You're saying that you shouldn't help someone because that's somehow colossal arrogance.

It's not exactly the Bystander Effect, but it illustrates the sort of thinking that justifies it in people's minds.

>>53434003
>You're saying that you shouldn't help someone
No, I'm saying we should argue that point for the sake of argument because doing so leads to greater insight than simply taking the opposite for granted.

>>53434051

The opposite of what now? Do you even have a point?

>>53433337
Most Trek writers were utter morons.

>>53434341

It doesn't help that there's often a disconnect between the writers and the effects people in the TV shows. In the dialogue, it's often millions of kilometers (which is admittedly close) but the effects shots show them swooping around each other with maybe hundred of kilometers between them.

>>53434429
>It doesn't help that there's often a disconnect between the writers and the effects people in the TV shows.
I recall hearing the DS9 writers frequently complained about the CGI because it was wildly out of touch with what they wanted.

Like at the end of season 5 they wanted to show the Defiant meeting up with a few ships. Instead the CGI showed the Defiant meeting up with a fuck-ton of ships, which gave the impression that they were going to retake the station right away, which is not what the writers intended, so at the start of season 6 they had a bunch of ships heavily damaged and basically limping back to starbase.

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>>53434737

Case in point: The designer of the D'deridex says the spot they're shooting from is the deflector dish. Not some sort of super disruptor.

>>53434774
I wonder how strong the dex actually is. Could it outshoot/outtank a Galaxy? We know it couldn't match the Enterprise for speed.

I thought this board was about tabletop games

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>>53436180

Based on what we see in TNG, I'd say no. The encyclopedia says they are "believed to have greater firepower" than a Galaxy. Which doesn't actually answer the question.

Memory Alpha says Two D'deridex-class warbirds outgunned an Intrepid-class starship. (VOY: "Learning Curve"), which isn't exactly a ringing endorsement.

We know that the singularity drive can't match a Galaxy for speed without damage. We know that a damaged singularity drive usually ends with the destruction of the entire ship. A misaligned singularity drive bleeds energy through the cloak.

Despite her advantages in size and potentially weaponry, her disadvantages likely make her something of a mixed bag.

>>53436466
You're really fucking new here, aren't you? Not just to /stg/, but to this entire board.

>>53436466

There are plenty of 40k lore threads. Our one Trek one isn't hurting anyone.

But, my experience with Trek roleplaying games left me sour with them, as did my experiences with Star Wars roleplaying games. With Trek, it's the issue that few of my friend are as into Trek as I am, and are unlikely to care about playing in the universe. With Star Wars, it's always the Jedi/Sith fags who have to ruin everything.

As for tabletop games, there's Attack Wing and Starfleet Battles, though Battles is so cocked up as far as getting access to material without shelling out hundreds of dollars it may as well be dead.

I have the d20 Prime Directive RPG. As expected, it's shit. Anything you want to particularly discuss about the tabletop stuff, or do you want to yell about the lore like the rest of us?

>>53436560
>With Trek, it's the issue that few of my friend are as into Trek as I am, and are unlikely to care about playing in the universe.
Not only that, but the few who do often have very different views on what the Trek universe entails (see: this thread). And if you open it up to the internet, you'll just get a bunch of nuTrek fags which isn't a bad thing necessarily in itself, but it's a far different thing than what I want.
With Star Wars, it's always the Jedi/Sith fags who have to ruin everything.
If not that, then it's "force sensitive" bounty hunter fags that want lightsabers and force powers, but don't want to deal with the restrictions of being a jedi or sith.

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>>53436824

Established and old settings like Trek, who've had a lot of hands stir the pot always have inconsistencies. Fans bicker about what is or isn't canon or true, and generally everyone has differing expectations.

In RPGs, canon is a starting place, but with Trek you have to decide what that starting place is (and now the same for Star Wars, thanks to the "Legacy" EU). I bet if you took a bunch of anons from /stg/ and tried to run a game with them, it would devolve into arguments as often as it comes together into something awesome.

It's the nature of the beast.

>>53436560
Different anon but I just want an RPG that is "like" Star Trek but is not tied to the Star Trek setting, if that makes any sense. High tech base with an emphasis on exploration and what have you.

>>53436560
Agreed about the friends bit.
Only one of my friends likes Trek, he's into classic sci-fi, and that's getting rarer and rarer. As time has gone on, science fiction has really become more about looks than ideas (including nuTrek), and it just doesn't do much for me.

There's very little available for people like us these days. Stellaris is tiding me over, since it's a mixing pot of fun science fiction concepts.

>>53437286
Star Trek and the Star Wars EU are why we have the Rule 0 of canon, to apply to all settings.
"If it's stupid, throw it out."
Regardless of any other consideration, 'canon level', or even if the original creator himself wrote it, if it's shit then it doesn't fit.

Enterprise for fuck's sake calls itself non-canon in the first episode. They immediately start with a non-canon meeting of the Klingons and then establish the Temporal Cold War and the concept that not a single episode was real or in the main timeline. It is canon that it is not canon. Or just it's own Alternate Timeline with an unspecified divergence date.

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>>53368412
Oh shit, is that the Diane Duane who wrote pic related? I love the shit out of her writing!

>>53438133
The same, yup. She wrote a shitton of the Romulan novels. Rihannsu was her invention, and the name of her series.

>>53428797
Actually, the Prime Directive applies only to Starfleet, not all Federation citizens.

Which is dumb, since a bunch civilians could legally just hire a private transport ship and assert themselves as gods on some primitive worlds.

>>53433337
The Klingon reinforcements come from "up" angle in the big battle to re-take DS9, so they at least acknowledge the 3D nature of space.

Also in All Good Things, the alternate reality Enterprise attacks the Klingons from below.

>>53439677
One would assume that Federation civil law would apply instead. And seeing as Starfleet ain't allowed to go around fucking with natives, it's fair to say that Federation civilians are also held to a similar restriction.

Even if it were a group that had formally left the federation, as soon as Starfleet caught wind of their operation you can bet they'd send someone to stop them.

>>53436180
I figure she's got greater firepower than a Galaxy class but lacks in areas like maneuverability and structural integrity. SO the longer a fight goes on, the more likely a Starfleet ship is to win. That's part of why their strategy seems to focus on surprise attacks and outnumbering their opponents.

>>53438053
>Enterprise for fuck's sake calls itself non-canon in the first episode.
I don't remember that, was it explicitly stated?

As I recall they seemed to be trying to not explicitly block or invalidate any events from shows or movies that were set later (for example: the tribbles episode, and the finale where Riker was playing the part of their chef via the holodeck).

Also, was it explicitly stated elsewhere how first contact with the Klingons happened? All I remember of TOS on the subject was that they already knew each other and didn't get along well.

Finally, minor nitpick, but as I recall they didn't actually say anything about a temporal cold war in the first episode. There was just a Suleiban (or however that's spelled) who, as it turns out later in the series, was probably part of the temporal cold war.

>>53436560
>With Trek, it's the issue that few of my friend are as into Trek as I am, and are unlikely to care about playing in the universe
Yeah, I'd love to play Star Trek Adventures, but I'm the only person in my social circle who gives the slightest shit about Star Trek. Thought about trying to find a group on roll20, but that kinda defeats the whole point imo. If I wanted to play a trek RPG on my computer, I'd just fire up STO.

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