What's your opinion on redemption of demons and devils?

Not possible for me.

I do like the imagery of a devil being altruistic though. They may be evil manipulative assholes, but you're on their good side.

Can be done but only over the course of a very long time and a lot of effort put to it. Most of the time it won't happen because neither the players nor the DM can't be bothered - and by the same token, in-universe it might happen like once in a thousand years if that.

So technically possible, but still astronomically unlikely.

Demons, devils, angels... all the same shit.

Mortals just look at things from their flat tiny perspective over a tiny sliver of time.

Whether it has black bat wings, or white dove wings depends simply on the mission of the entity.

>>53326784

It can be interesting if done right.

If you actually want it to be part of a game you need to carefully weigh how hard it is- Too much effort over too long a time and it becomes unfeasible for any PC to attempt it, too easy and it's just silly. With that balance achieved, though, a long term effort to redeem a truly evil creature can be really interesting.

From what I understand, the gargoyles and grotesques of Notre Dame and other gothic cathedrals are supposed to be demons seeking redemption by protecting the faithful... so, it's a possibility.

>>53326784
I really love paradise lost, and my demons rise about as frequently as angels fall, but mostly they all just equivocate about things they were designed not to really understand. Occasionally I might throw in a bone for clear metaphysical boundaries between good and evil, but I really like the idea of Felix Culpa.

>>53326784

Depends on the setting.

I use demons in several ways, but normally as completely, irredeemably evil. In my last campaign, there were no lower planes, and demons were formed from permanent damage to the fabric of the reality caused by an ancient war. Their goals were always to cause more damage (and ideally eventually destroy reality altogether), primarily by ejecting souls through the breach and therefore damaging the cycle of life death and rebirth (causing undeath and more instability in reality). No matter how nice they acted (and some did pretend to be good), that was all they cared about, the ultimate angle of all their schemes and deals and fits of mayhem.

Such a being cannot be redeemed.

>>53326784
Eh, depends.

I like too run both somethimes.

>>53326784
I'm fine with it happening, but it should be unbelievably hard. And it's not only possible for cute/hot ones; you can redeem a pit fiend or balor too if you work hard enough.

>>53326986
>you can redeem a pit fiend or balor too if you work hard enough

Who says pit fiends or balors aren't hot?

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I feel like people are really keen on bullying pretty demons now just because they think it's unfair that more people want to redeem them.

>>53326784
Depends on the setting.

If irredemable evil, one way. If not irredemable, another.

>>53327091
It's actually more that demons were unreddemable creatures but some people wanted to regenerate them because muh dick.

It's like the retard thought sequence of sending a serial rapist love letters, which happens in real life.

>>53326784
Something that's talked about on /tg/ a lot yet people act like this discussion has never before been had.

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>>53326784
Reconcilers are the best faction.

>>53327185
I don't think that is a faction.

>>53326890
Neat, I'm reminded of that goofy doom mates setting on one of the /aco/ threads, think life with monster girls with more wold building, and doom. Point is after many failed invasions that end in one marine pushing their shit in, chunks of hell get fed up with being evil and think the UAC can offer a better deal

>>53326784
Rising/falling is a matter of perspective. A demon in my setting will do good if it fits their purpose, goal and nature and then turn around and do something evil because, again, that specific action is within their nature.

It is a case of different perspective and morality that humans misinterpret as good/evil.

An angel can fall, but can a demon rise?

Yes. It's nature compels it towards malice, but by conscious effort and deciding every day, it can.

There's a particular reason why a fallen angel is so much more common than a risen demon, it's a matter of chosing the self over the group, or the group over the self.

>>53327205
http://whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Faction_(DTF)

>>53326784
I'm fine with it, but I think if I use demons for my setting(s) it's likely to either be a label attached to practically any spiritual entities perceived as evil by mortals, or as the result of a corrupting Hell-like force/location that consistently traumatizes, maddens, and/or mutates souls but doesn't necessarily make them evil per se.

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>>53326784

Redemption should be a form of torture for demons/devils. The inherent contradiction should feel to them as the worst torment/torture imaginable.

>>53326784
depends.
If it is one of the demons considered such through magical attribute/ appearance/ relation, than it might have never been evil to begin with.

If it is one of those said to be a demon for being both a magical and malicious creature, then smiting is better.

and yes, succubi do not exist in my setting

>>53326784
>What's your opinion on redemption of demons and devils?
Depends on the setting, but it should be consistent. If it's a setting where devils are inherently pure, concentrated evil and angels are pure good, I don't want to see any of that shit. If it's one where angels can fall, then demons should be able to rise.

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>>53326784
> What's your opinion on redemption of demons and devils?

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>>53326784
It can happen, but it should never be easy and it should never be common.

But done right it is fantastic.

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>>53326784
>What's your opinion on redemption of demons and devils?

I don't actually turn my Demons/Devils into Angels and vice versa if they've been "redeemed", if that's what you're implying.
They turn into Fey.
I also think having them commit to such a violent heel-turn when they're "redeemed", is the goofiest part about it if anything.

A fair share of Demons & Devils that enter the physical world can't actually keep up hellish appearances for the long run, they become broken down and comfortable: the people are kind, the food is good, no demonic bureaucracy hounding them, they get a taste of 'true freedom' and they don't want to give it up to serve another, so they become corrupted into fey.

Even something simple as a Hellhound is susceptible to corruption: a land where he isn't being whipped, a land where prey is plentiful and slow, a land without masters, where life is easy.

>>53327091
Bullying is purest love.

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>>53326784
>What's your opinion on redemption of demons and devils?

>>53326784
If you somehow found a way to redeem a devil, you could possibly convert it to the form of an immortal. However, if you "redeemed" a demon, you'd probably just end up with an elemental that's still quite violent.

>>53326784
It depends.

If they are fallen angels in your setting, it should be possible. Though rare.
The D&D 3rd mythos paints Devils as angels who were tainted by their fight against the Demons, who see their cruelty as a necessary evil to fight the destructive forces of Chaos.

In the Christian mythos, they were angels (beings supposed to be without free will) who joined a rebellion against the creator god. Yet, it is also said that Hell is locked from the inside.


If they are instead an more of an axiomatic elemental, like the Inevitibles are for Pure Law or the Slaadi for Pure Chaos, then it should be extremely rare, (As it would be akin to a Fire Elemental coming to understand and expose the virtues of being Water.) but still possible if they have individual personalities.
However, their form would likely change into their new alignment's appearance.

I think it's boring if a sentient species has to all share the same personality traits and morality. Demons and devils are obviously intelligent beings in 90% of settings, they should have the same mental diversity that humans have, which means to me that some are evil, some are good, and some are in-between.

In regards to OP's question, that means that I do believe that demons and devils should be able to be redeemed in the sense that they aren't actively seeking death and destruction, and wish for the well-being of all sentient beings.

And if demons and devils can pursue that kind of altruism, and are part of a setting where they are demons because God cast them down from heaven, then they should be redeemed in a more literal sense by God.

And if God doesn't allow redemption, then that God never deserved our worship in the first place and deserves to be cast down themselves (rage against the unfairness of God or the gods is one of my favorite kinds of stories).

Either way, it makes for some great story material.

>>53327091
Moar

>>53326784
Stupid beyond any reasoning. Demons and Devils occupy a cosmic position of True Evil. You can't redeem True Evil, otherwise it ain't True Evil.
Making Demons and Devils different creatures, with different motivations is how you play this trope right, but you should never redeem them: to them what they do isn't wrong, how could it be wrong? It is their very defining nature and trait.

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>>53326784
Depends heavily on the nature of demons/devils in the setting in particular, and whethe or not such entities actually have agency and free-will of their own.

Also any more of your pic OP?

>>53328215
What if redeeming them transforms them into a new being?

>>53326784
Depends on the setting.

Christian demons are angels that rebelled against God, so since they seem to have choice then they probably could redeem themselves.

In the forgotten realms there is no way to redeem a demon or devil because they are literally evil materialized as magical monsters and have no free will.

But there's also the issue of them being portrayed as boring BBEG antagonists. There are stories where a being made of pure good essence gets corrupted but I've never seen one where a demon seeks redemption.

In the end, the one guiding the narrative can do anything he wants, I guess.

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>>53328241

A little

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>>53329176

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>>53329183

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>>53329195

I think the idea that there can be sapient creatures of pure good and evil is a little ridiculous, so I tend to avoid the whole demon and angels thing as a whole, and if I had them I wouldn't see any reason it would be too much harder for them to fall/rise than a human, aside from maybe natural inclinations and tendencies towards certain mindsets like how different animals act differently.

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>>53329218
>4 arms
>horns
>dark eyes
>teeth
>dark skin
>reptile legs
>EXTRA THICC
I know EXACTLY why I have this boner

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The setting I usually use has "demon" as a general descriptor for anything that is bound to the "demon world" (tighter cosmology than most D&D, total of 7 "planes"). This ranges from terrestrial entities like dragons (who while greedy and selfish creatures can very easily be on the side of righteousness) to faustian-sell-your-soul devils, and creaures born from human souls, like succubi/incubi. Most are generally anti-human, which in our terms would essentially mean evil, but individually, all species of demon can be "humanizers", or pro-human, for any number of reasons, so virtuous demons are by no means unheard of, and canonically a certain demon lord has assisted in saving the human world more times than he would admit to.

>>53329386
Not pictured
> puffy vulva

>>53326784
It's the kind of thing that they'd really be too prideful to embrace for the most part and I'd certainly use it as an in to have them lie and fuck with the players who tried to do something like that, to say nothing of the fact that I prefer to run them as an evil counter point to biblical angels, as masses of uncountable formless eldritch beings, with the fear that implies. Redemption is not on the options list.

>>53328492
Now that's a good point, and a storytelling achievement: to change the very basic notion of a creature in its core.
But that would be too much plot related, and it would need agency from everyone involved, including the players. Could make an amazing campaign.

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>>53329434
Where can I learn more about my new wife?

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>>53329497
Matsu-sensei, of "Touch the cow do it now" fame.

Something about a Catholic school, where breast feeding and fellacio are are holy acts.

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>>53329113
Or even funnier, a being made of pure evil essence getting corrupted by good.
Accidentally doing nice things. Twisted into helping people. Not being a dick to others, and not knowing why.
I would pay good money to watch the hilarious mental turmoil of that shit.

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>>53329585

>>53329604
>Oh yeah, totally gonna murder that old lady on the sidewalk
5 minutes later
>"Oh, thank you so much for carrying my groceries, young man. It's good to know that there are still decent young people out there these days."
>Tha fuck did I just do?!

>>53326784
Succubi can be redeemed, shown in two instances in D&D, and Devils, well, it depends on the type. All devils made from the torture process are next-to-nigh impossible to sace, Erinyes, maybe, any fallen and or corrupted sorts are also up for salvation

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>>53329861
Then they head home, and head into the torture chamber, and give everyone a relaxing, de-back-kinking massage, realise what they've done, and sob themselves to sleep in the shower with a bottle of free trade virgin blood.

>>53329993
>Devils screwing up evil is the real root cause the internet jokes about how lewd hand holding and consensual sex in the missionary position for the purposes of procreation are considered came to be.

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>not smiting the demon on sight
And smite the angels too. God damn bipolar fucks are as bad as each other, messing up the balance of the universe.

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>>53330059
YES.
>Succubus goes after a target to tempt a mortal into debauchery
>Gets too invested in mario kart
>Twelve hour vidya/netflix binge instead of debauchery
>Fall asleep on the couch together
>IT KEEPS HAPPENING

>>53326784
Wait, is this Touch The ... >>53329585
fucking knew it. If memory serves, he does some delicious Dragon Crown stuff too. And by delicious I do mean thicc.

Demons/non 'humans' in general can be a fun time to play with 'your good is not my good'- especially if they're a recurring character that has an attachment to the party that leans towards 'fond'.
>I love you, hero
>That's why I'm going to keep you and torture you forever

>>53329218
>>53329195
>>53329183
>>53329176

wait, where does this stuff come from?
I searched the guy's deviant art, nothing.

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>Young succubi in rebellious teen age phase.
>"No fuck you dad, it's not just a phase! I'm a paladin of Pelor now!"
>Mostly just going through the motions for the thrill and glory, but over time comes to enjoy the gratitude the peasants have for her after saving the town from demons and through many trials and tribulations she is eventually redeemed in the eyes of her god.
>Adult version having to resist the urge to fuck every man in the room, but her will is strong and she will persevere.

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>>53330962

You see, demons are supposed to be fallen angels. Essentially people with mistakes like us, but they are much, much more powerful. For them to be redeemed should be a very difficult task. The way I see it, they don't work in hell. They actually suffer with the sinners, but keep them down there as well, because it's the only thing left they can do since they no longer have the holy obligation of helping us.
>>53330942
I see it more as a guardian angel turned into a succubi during a hormonal teens life, as he slowly went from pure to a creep who rapes

>>53326784
I ironically love it.

Daemons represented via media nowadays are usually just seen as the link between pure good and pure evil, but can change side easily as if they were human

Anyone religious here willing to proof resd what I said by reading the Bible/religious text or share their thoughts while I look at the posts I skipped?

>>53331015
About how many layers of irony?

>>53331041
Faith requires no proof, dummy.
Wouldn't be faith if it did.

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>>53326986
They can be cute if they want to be.

>>53331064
Only two. What really gets me going is cute, monogamous succubutts who subsist on semen instead of souls.

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>>53330176
>>53330516
I've always felt this is the best way to run it, with the individuals more developed than the sides.
>Quiet, calm angel allows insane political activists to blow up parliament because the net gain of virtue will be greater in the wake of the tragedy, and it's just mortals fucking each other up, after all
>Fire and brimstone angry angel slaps everyone he meets with a not-Penance-Stare; If you're good, it won't hurt much, and it's judgement you deserve anyway
>Devil bound to guard a location gives three warnings before completely fucking up intruders, is willing to have philosophy discussions at the edge of the restricted area (he's still aware of the rest of the perimeter)
>Demon sides with smaller army and gets tired slaughtering the bigger one, is massively confused to be hailed as a hero, given tribute, and paraded through the streets; somehow never gets around to slaughtering smaller army country

>>53331181
Human can't subsists on semen alone, /d/ did math on this and they were cross-checking the dietary facts with /fit/, so it's like two best authorities on the case. The problem is nutrients are so diluted that consuming enough to sustain yourself would give you kidney failure.

>>53331234
So you could subsist on semen and fresh kidneys?

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Manga based on this subject kinda sorta?

http://bato.to/comic/_/comics/musuko-ga-kawaikute-shikataganai-mazoku-no-hahaoya-r19526

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>>53331234
I think that would be obvious, and you grossly misunderstood my post.

>>53331234
Well, they're not humans, they're demons. They're probably getting spiritual energy from the symbolic sacrifice of a life-generating substance, or something.

Devils are fundamentally irredeemable because it is their fundamental nature to subvert God's will. They do not have the free will of human beings.

>>53331405
Angels have no free will either yet plenty of them still managed to fall.

>>53331276
I guess it can be bypassed by proper culinary preparation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reduction_(cooking)

>>53331363
I really wish that would update

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I'm pro demonic redemption, but there has to be at least a little bit of will on the demon's part

Or the paladin's god gave him a holy dicking spell

>>53331076
True, forgot about that...
Thanks for the reminder, I guess I'll lurk more.
This thread is interesting so far...

>>53331405
Get that Nasrud-Islamic theology out of here anon.

>>53331414
To fall itself implies that they have changed in such a way as to no longer understand subverting God's will as a bad thing. What sends a human soul to Hell isn't sinning, it's allowing the sin to change you into the kind of person who doesn't think that what you did was a bad thing. Lust does not damn you, but believing that choosing to lust is not Bad does. If they were to be redeemed then they wouldn't be damned, they would have done penance and purification, however long, in Purgatory. To be sent to Hell is to be irredeemable.

>>53326784
My setting has a Neutral Demon who can be considered redeemed, but he's really not.

Joh'Nozar the Demonlord and Rentoh of the First Light, a demon and angel respectively, have been eternal enemies for....well, ever.

During one battle, instead of killing each other, as they had many times before as death for a demon/angel just respawns them in their home realm, they decided to take a break from this whole business and declared a cease fire.

Basically, Joh'Nozar can't be any more evil than your average mortal, and Rentoh can't be any more good. And in one thousand years(not too long for them), they will be at war again.

So Joh'Nozar decided if he can't do evil, he must act Neutral for the time being. And the most neutral thing he could think of was an average joe dirt farmer.

So he ascended to the mortal plane, picked a prime bit of farm real-estate, and got to farming. He currently goes by Dread-Farmer John, grower of the best Damned taters on this side of Hell. He also has a hellhound around to keep the badgers out.

He doesn't have any ulterior motive doing this or anything, he's just doing some honest work to keep busy until the thousand year truce is over.

>>53331529
this is amazing

One of players redeemed a succubus during a campaign. They fell in love afterwards and he knocked her up, possible because of the magic being used giving her a basically human body
Her soul was still that of a demon's and was slowly tearing away at her body. She died during childbirth
Their daughter is really cute

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>>53331372
Not that that's probably a sustainable system either.
Would you timeshare a succubutt with four other guys so she can live off it without draining any of you to death or illness?
Assume her demonic nature is enough to prevent STIs from causing trouble, and the others can keep to a contract.

I usually don't do immortal beings, so devils and demons are the great-great-great-etc descendants of the originals, and have fuck all to do with good or evil as a collective race. Hell is like Fantasy Syria; the only reason anyone lives in that shithole anymore is because it's THEIR shithole. Anyone with sense left ages ago.


>>53331414
That leads into my favorite theory: devils didn't fall, so much as were pushed. God and Lucifer are basically the same guy playing both sides of the table. I don't get to indulge it much because then I have to get out my atheist fedora and things get weird.

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>>53331405
>Abrahamic Gods

I like the idea that its something like an addiction. Demons and angels are essentially the same thing, separately only by their actions and morality. The lure of evil is strong and roots deep into them, even when deep down they know that it is wrong, but the pleasure they experience is overwhelming. A spiritual heroin if you will. Demons even suffer a type of withdrawal when turning to the other side, intense pain, vomiting magic and odd behavior. There are even monasteries set up as rehabs where they slowly learn to control it. Spiritual AA's where they meet on the astral plane and support the fallen. Its not an easy process but those who fully come out of it are often especially strong through their desire to atone for their evil.

>>53331546
The players haven't been to see him yet, and don't even know he's a demon.

The only thing they know is Farmer John has an unusually large patch of farm land, and he doesn't pay taxes. Not because he refuses to, but because all the tax collectors are too afraid to tell him he owes taxes. He's more than willing to if they asked, it's not like he needs the money for anything.

I'm still trying to figure out what the angel is doing. I might have him be a fisherman just to have him doing something equally mundane.

>>53332439
Running a winery. They say the port is heavenly.

>>53332439
carpenter obviously, or politician for some irony

My demons are anarchic

Their only unifying trait is they rebel against divine order

Some can be good
Many are bad

"Hell" is basically territory carved up between Warlords and gangs with the exception of Dis, which is considered neutral ground (that everyone schemes and manipulates and tries to control anyway)

Humans can be anything from friends to favored pets to fucking food or building materials

>>53326784
An interesting concept run into the ground by retards who have to force their sexual frustration into everything, just like this thread.

>>53327222
Those were some fun threads.

>>53327139
>It's actually more that demons were unreddemable creatures

Has that ever really been the case?

>>53332884
>An interesting concept run into the ground by retards who have to force their sexual frustration into everything
Arguably a fairly succinct description for /tg/ as a whole, really.

>>53333057
Too negative, only a nofunallowed poster would put it that way.

>>53326784
Whenever I'm doing something wherein angles and demons aren't analogous to dumb AIs made of good/evil then I tend to make it possible though unlikely due to culture. They're beings raised in a culture that has 'evil' values and spend most of their time around others who embrace those values for an echo chamber of 'Mortals suck, take their souls'. Then give them thousands of years to get stuck in their ways...

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>>53329449

>>53330962

I have a character like this. It takes her father hours to get her mother to stop sobbing after hearing her say things like that.

>>53331877
>Gods
There is only one God I'm not Catholic

Devils are fallen angels so you just need to redeem them

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>>53333244

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>>53333353
You'd better find some more heresy for comparison. I don't think we have enough yet to be sure.

>>53329113
>Christian demons are angels that rebelled against God
No, that is Devils.
Demons and Devils are not the same thing, the big man himself has an army of Demons that supposedly reside in Samael's chunk of the 5th Heaven, according to the writings of Pope Gregory the Great. I mean, he even put Lilith the 'Mother of Demons' up there (And this is ~150 years BEFORE the Jewish reinventing of the Demonology Narrative that claimed she was Adam's first wife)!

>>53333396
>according to the writings of Pope Gregory

Do you also consider fanfic lore when discussing LotR?

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>>53332847
Demons are anarchic in my setting too, but in the more hippie-ish kind of way.

The Prime-Evil rebelled against heaven because he had ambitions, and was incredibly jealous of humanity and the other races for having free will. So when they broke away from heaven, the first and only rule in hell was "Do what you want."

Since then a hierarchy has formed, stronger demons basically bully the weak into working for them, but "Satan" is a pretty chill guy and still follows the rule of do what you want, mostly because no one is strong enough to stop him.

Not many demons have ever seen or met Satan, so they often think they need his permission to do any big things like leave hell to become mortal or attempt to work their way back into heaven.

When Satan does meet with his minions, it usually looks something like;

>Oh great and powerful lord of the underworld! I have a request!
>Oh, yeah?
>I have fallen in love with a mortal, and wish to leave your vast dominion of blight and darkness. Please, I beg you!
>Yeah man... totally. No one's stopping you dude.
>Thank you all powerful one! I shall sacrifice in your honor ever full moon!
>You do you man.

>>53334314
The man literally wrote the book on Demonology, anon - he IS the source of the stories of most modern Demons outside of the Ars Goetia, which was dealing with Devils.
If discussing LotR, it's the equivalent of citing Tolkien.

>>53326845
>depends simply on the mission of the entity
That's inconsistent with, real life lore, where all angels under god are the white dove wing variety (even when their job is to fuck shit up), and all who are under the devil are the black winged fucks with red skin, pointy horns and pitchforks.

>>53334947
>where all angels under god are the white dove wing variety
Someone hasn't read the Revelations of John and ignored entirely the books that the early fathers quoted.

>>53334947
> What is a wheel made of eyes?

>>53334947
Fuck off. There aren't even any stereotypical demons and devils in the Bible. Just angels and fallen angels. Frankly, the Bible is a boring retarded piece of inferior mythology. All the apochryphal shit is much cooler with monsters and weird shit.

>>53334850
>Catholicism
>Ever

Nice try Church of Satan.

>>53335689
The bible is no longer the sole source of Christian canon. Thank the popes.

GODDAMNIT SAUCE PLS

>>53335740
Technically, Gregory was from WAY before the Schism, making that work from the Orthodoxy. Aside, he was collecting information from the Apocrypha, which was included in the bible that Jesus himself used, so largely still biblical.

>>53335689
There isn't a single mention of a fallen angel in the entire bible, anon.
Angels, Demons, and Devils are brought up quite often enough, even if not by name.
Legion is the easiest example of a Demonic Devil, the Plague of (King) Saul being an example of a Demon of God.

>>53329604
Well, watch Star Wars episode seven, then. Kylo Ren's entire thing is that he's an evil dude who has to fight against the influence of the light side.

>>53335973
>There isn't a single mention of a fallen angel in the entire bible,

Anon I don't think you've actually read the bible.

>>53335973
Piss off, the Fall is in the Bible. Read the goddamn piece of shit, wanker.

>>53330176
Oh my god, does all autistic screeching (ironic or otherwise) on 4chan sound better in Chapman's unamused officer voice?

>>53326784
If they are personified Vice(demons) or Virtue(angels), then no, they can't be redeemed or corrupted, because they have no personal agency whatsoever.

If they are beings spawned in hellfire of heaven, but have personalities and all, then sure, why not, since they are capable of change.

>>53333353
When will someone do this to the Guilliman suit?

Reminder: while there are a handful of demons and devils that periodically make contracts with mortals, humans have been honing laws and contracts on one another for millennia.

Glazfoth the Profane can never stick around in any place too long, because he's in hock with the mafia, and they don't take souls, only cold hard cash.

Beruneria the succubus thought she was seducing a decadent prince, but now she has eleven sister-wives who all have seniority over her and NEVER let her forget it--and she didn't even get laid for her trouble!

>>53326784
If female and sexy: Yes
If not: Burn it

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I figure it works like Decepticons. There are probably a lot of genuinely benevolent demons in a lot of settings that have demons, but the cause they believe is good is either not actually good or skewed by a leading infernal force who are themselves not good. Like, I dunno, half the lesser key of solomon are just guys who chose free will, are for the most part teachers not fighters, and usually explicitly state they'd just like to go home. This only applies to settings where demons are not made exclusively from evil in elemental form. Those guys are not gonna get any form of redemption without becoming an entirely different kind of creature.

>>53337460
I dunno, I'd argue you can be made of evil and be good.
I mean, you might run on evil and all that shit, but you recognize it's a lot better to live with people if everyone is nice.

>>53334947
That's just goofy kawaii fanart.

Its weird how these arguments are always a mix of D&D 3.x lore + Christianity.

Christian Fallen Angels: God made some things. The things didn't necessarily do what they want.
D&D 3.5 Fiends: Nothing (TM) or The Universe (TM) made Elementals of Evil that are Evil.

Two totally different conversations. They aren't similar even if you squint and tilt your head sideways.

The fact that some Alignment Elementals aren't the same thing as they were made says all you need to know about the possibility.

>>53326784
It depends on the metaphysics of demons/devils in the setting. In standard canon 3.x D&D for example, it's impossible as long as they have the [Evil] subtype. A demon changing from evil to good is analogous to a human changing from being made of meat to being made of the color blue, and makes about as much sense. Free will and the capacity for real alignment change is a characteristic of mortal existence.

If you're in a setting where demons AREN'T literally physically and metaphysically composed out of Evil, then sure, I don't see why not.

If you have a setting where demons or devils are fallen angels, then the reverse should also be possible on principle.

>>53338408
>In standard canon 3.x D&D for example, it's impossible

That's not true at all. Why do people think this? Even the MM points out its perfectly possible to have lawful good succubi, just rare.

The 3e devs apparently thought it so important to make it possible for there to be good aligned fiends that they explicitly spelled out how this would work, rules wise, in core.

Anyone got that pic of a devil in a wedding dress shouying "i do" from about a 100 yards out from a church?

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>>53338536
I gotcha.

>>53338361
In some editions of DnD devils are fallen angels. Or at least some of them are (at the very least they are not the original natives of the plane of lawful evil, but moved there/were banished there and took it over). Demons are pretty much universally the embodiments of chaos and evil, though.

>>53338737
many thanks anon.

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>>53326784
They don't need Redemption. Demons and devils can not do any evil. For they do not know what it is. They already adhere to the commands of the Gods, its just that the Gods want them to be wicked to teach mortals lessons.

When it comes to morality they view mortals as little dolls. The only important part they need to respect is the soul. But when it comes to the material vessel the difference between angels and demons is that angels are the children who like to take care of their toys, demons are the ones that like to see what happens when they smash their toys on a wall, and Fae are the ones who can arbitrarily flip between the two behaviors.

>>53327580
>not posting the bath scene from the OVA where vigne is covered in the strongest heavenly light possible

Ya dun goofed

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>>53330962
>Implying fucking every willing man in the room, every room, is against what Pelor wants
>Spread the glory, get more recruits, generate more faith
>Implying consentual sex is bad
>Implying succudin wouldn't enjoy having sane and emotional sex in the missionary position for the porpuse of procreation bonding and recreation with a single chosen partner
>She's going to mission the whole village

>Implying succubus secretary isn't the best secretary

>>53338766
Exactly. Which is why I find the naysayers on redemption to be crazy people: they have a penchant for squishing in Christian notions of fallen angels with ???? notions of Evil Elementals, without ever acknowledging that they're polar opposite conditions.

I really like the 4e lore and style on the topic, which is basically the only iteration of D&D to clearly engage the tension and contrast between those two takes.

>>53326784
Regardless of the steps involved in the process one way or the other, if an angel is allowed to fall, a demon is capable of rising.

In a world where two opposing and equal forces collide with eachother, and one can go to the other, it doesn't make sense for the reverse to be true. Otherwise, demons would have outright won hundreds of thousands of eons ago.

People spout out crap like "BUT THEY"RE TRUE EVIL" and shit, but at the point you are 100% evil, it doesn't matter anymore because regardless of what you do its "Evil". Same thing with being "Good". Thus, reversing the question, if a demon isn't capable of rising, fallen angels should never exist, even as a hypothetical. If they are "Truly good" beings, then any action they take is "good". The idea of "falling" shouldn't even exist, as they should never be able to change, ever.

If one side is absolute, both sides are. If one side isn't, neither are.

TL;DR alignment as existence is fucking retarded, almost as much as alignments themselves.

>>53327616
>Even something simple as a Hellhound is susceptible to corruption: a land where he isn't being whipped, a land where prey is plentiful and slow, a land without masters, where life is easy.

Underrated and unasked for feels

>>53338473
>Forgetting ABOUT THAT ENTIRE FUCKING SET OF DEMON ENFORCERS THAT MAKE SURE EVERYTHING IS CE BY BRUTALIZING EVEN DEMON LORDS WHO STRAY OUT OF LINE

>>53331363

Randomly passing by this discussion to say a big fucking thank you for linking this, as I had originally found one of the colored pages from this and had no luck finding the source for it.

Its goddamn adorable and I love it.

>>53336032
>>53336031
you're aware that Paradise Lost isn't in the bible, yeah?

>>53342112

>Forgetting

Nope, try again.

>>53326784
if angels can fall, all right
shouold be still rare as fuck and not some retarded bullshit like "THRU MUH MIGHTY PALADICK"

How come we always hear succubi being redeemed by paladins fucking them, but never hear about pit fiends or balors being redeemed by fucking female paladins?

>>53326784
I want to fuck that.

>>53342762
No one else can do such a conversion? Is there some copyright I don't know about?

>>53331041
Well in the bible demons (which doesnt even exist, its just lucifer and his gang) are willless war machines used by god to rebel against himself out of fear over mans free will.

So really, demons and angels have the same amount of personality as a car.

>>53326784
Mohammedan nonsense.

>>53343298
Why do I get the feeling you're talking about drawings?

>>53343143
Only after a minimum of 5 years and marriage.

And then no depraved shit, just pure sex and hand holding for the sake of procreation.

>>53342960
Because most of the people who like this"""""trope"""" cough fetish cough are men.

>>53342960
Because whenever a big demon is fucking a female paladin it's always in a rape fetish hentai.

>>53343426
Really? if twilight has taught me anything, a pretty face and nice abs are pretty much all a girl needs.

I used to have a problem with how it was always Succubi/Incubi getting the redemption treatment. Now, though, I think it kinda makes sense - as demons meant to infiltrate and corrupt mortals, they're gonna have the most mortal-like thought processes, and the most non "HAHA RIP AND TEAR" interaction with actual decent people.

That said, I'd still rather read about a Glabrezu finding faith and redemption through Pelor's grace than yet another "love redeems a succubus" plot.

>>53326784
Thick thighs save lives

>>53342960
>pit fiends or balors being redeemed by fucking female paladins?

Men are the actors. In that situation it would be the paladin being corrupted by the demon.

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>>53343819

>>53344216
Oh baby

>>53342701
>For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;

>And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems. His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth.

>Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back, but he was defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—whe was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

It always surprises me when people bring up the Bible, and they clearly have no idea what they are talking about. It's not hard to just look up the passages.

>>53326784
You mean like Lilium

>>53343718
Yeah but when you google balor or pit demon you don't get that.

You get something close to you, explaining your whole ordeal with women too.

Handy isn't it?

>>53344650
>You get something close to you
12 feet tall and made of fire?

>>53344744
Well, translate height to fat and fire to stink then yes.

if an angel can fall then a demon should be able to rise. the crux is that, just like with angels falling, so should it require a significant event for something like this to happen, and should be full-length campaign tier stuff and not some bullshit paladin going "i roll persuade to purify the SUCCubus"

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Not possible in my homo-brew.

Hell didn't exist at first, only the Abyss. There, the Foul Serpent waged an eternal war against the Qlippoth, cold instinct against fecund hatred. Mortal life began developing sedentary chiefdoms, however, and the desire for order against nature caused a new being to take form: the Orderly Beast.

Devils were at first serpentine, but one of them became suffused with the mammalian traits of mortal societies and gradually more ape-like. Rising intellect combined with an instinctive desire for dominance to turn that one devil into the Orderly Beast. With one hand full of fire and another gripping a crude spear, he butchered the Foul Serpent and became a god. Raising the city of Hell up deep within the Abyss, he led his newly-transformed fellow devils on a successful campaign against the Qlippoth, slowly expanding the borders of Hell using the souls of those he began corrupting with venomous promises and dark miracles.

Also, no demons, because demons are overrated as fuck.

Now I want to have redeemed gargoyles protecting a church where a gaint behemoth acts as a friendly friar.

>>53345576
was...
was that the image you intended to post?

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>>53347216
All depends.

Was that the image you intended to save?

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Not if they're Christian inspired, but I can go for inherently evil beings turned good.

See: MIKE

>>53347423
Poor mike, I hope we see him again in some form.

>>53333352
>>53333406
Could I get sauce on this.

>>53326784
Redemption is always possible as long as one repents, now making amends for one's crimes are an entirely different story

Though generally it CAN happen, though even neutral demons/devil will get on the rest of their kind's shitlist unless they can provide some reason to leave them alone

>>53347423
From?

>>53348015
Twin Peaks

>>53337658
This is actually how canon D&D works, if you're made of evil you heavily tend towards evil, but you can still be good
Same with being made of good/law/chaos and being evil/chaotic/lawful respectively

It's not possible to redeem them but it is possible to convince them to be less evil for the sake of someone they love.

Y'all just gotta believe in the power of love.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dV3AdFBqUP4

>>53327600
You.

I like you.

>>53348251
>Because Inker is the artist who drew all of these...

Yeah, and I'm not talking about drawings, I'm talking about actually making a model out of the concept with the Guilliman model.

>>53330962
>>53341592
To my knowledge there is nothing in Pelor's dogma that is against sex, probably against some marriage/chastity oath if she's taken one, but as long as those don't apply there's nothing that would prevent a succubus paladin of Pelor from fucking every single consenting man (and/or woman if she wants) she comes across other than general taste

>>53330207
>Demons getting "Corrupted" by human creations
This I can get behind, it would be funny to see them cast away the torment of the souls of the damned for some cheap human made food and entertainment.

>>53327527
I kind of like that idea. Kind of like, every moment of them being redeemed is torture for a demon or devil, and despite that, they still choose to walk that path, despite constant agony, they willingly turned over a new leaf, because inside they know it's right.

>>53348962
>Lucifer and the devil princes could have ended the world ages ago
>But humans made so much cool shit
I mean, shit, they embody the seven sins, and humanity has ample shit to indulge in

>>53348752
Sure, but for her specifically, sexuality might be too entangled with her former evil lifestyle in her mind for her to indulge in it without fear of relapsing.

>>53349467
Point, if she's serious about redemption, she should reject things that tempt her back to her old ways

Though that's assuming sex tempts her to her old ways, it probably varies from redeemed succubus to succubus

>>53326784
Evil is so steeped into their being that redemption is impossible. You can't change their nature.

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I wrote a book on the subject.

https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Story:Holy_Opposites

Long story short: I interpret it as impossible in the Forgotten Realms for beings that truly have NO free will to be good or evil in the PC Alignment sense, but if you have even a little, or a true soul, you can choose to be good or evil as you wish, even if it is extremely difficult. When a devil does become good, it's a huge decision, it involves willpower and oaths, but more importantly, it should never be attempted alone. Imagine if addiction wasn't just a state of being, but a personal thrill.

>>53326784
Depends a devil deserves nothing but absolute death, a demon is debatable. Judeo-christian demon= DEATH, everything else is debatable

>>53348752
>>53349467
>>53349903
Doesn't sex with a succubus mean getting your soul ripped out?

>>53342960
I've never seen male paladins redeem succubi, but I have had female mortals figure heavily in the redemption of a balrog and a balor, the former a storyline thing and the latter just a quirky thing that happened, one in 2002 and one in 2015.

But yes, a masculine fiend being redeemed in part through fucking a female paladin sounds very interesting.

>>53343426
Well I'm a man and personally identifying as a big frikkin demonic monstrosity whose "girlfriend" is a pure, kind hearted paladin girl sounds a million times more appealing than identifying as a pure, kind hearted paladin guy whose "girlfriend" has been fuckin random dudes for the last few thousand aeons.

>>53347423
Shouldn't a Christian inspired setting, with its gaggy themes of boundless forgiveness explicitly mean that yes, planar beings can alignment shift?

In owod for example I like to have there be lots of Christian vampires and demons, seems like a tailor made religion for them.

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>>53349903
One anomaly in the characterization of succubi is the idea of what a lust demon (devil/daemon/wtf ever) is -- is it a demon that fuggs to manipulate people through lust or is it a demon who fuggs because they suffer from overwhelming lust?

Its pretty clear that, say, a wrath devil/demon is an angry dude, not a calm dude that makes people angry, but its rarely clear that lust ones are the same way.

>>53350576
Strictly speaking, in D&D at least, any intimate contact does, including kissing, but I also think she can chose not to if she wants

>>53350839
Well the usual point of a succubus is to tempt people with lust

Though if you want to expand on the idea, the definition of lust doesn't just mean sexual desire, it means ANY strong/overwhelming desire for something, so a succubus could have an overwhelming lust for power and sleep her way to the top rather than just want to fuck everyone, or wealth, or revenge, or..., just any desire taken to unhealthy levels

>>53350839
My preference for vice-based demons is that they both suffer from their vice and seek to inflict it on others. From that perspective, it's like you're asking if the sun IS bright or if it MAKES things bright: Yes.

>>53353065
Before anyone asks, this is an edit

Nah
Humans are so great that they need eternal enemy to have a near-equal foes.
So Demons

As for the Christian demons: Angels are fully-rational beings and, unlike humans, who lost their knowledge after fall of Adam and other events, are fully aware of existence of God, therefore, rebellion against him was final verdict for them and cannot return to state of grace.

Nope, not possible in any game I run. Its impossibility is part of the fundamental difference between good and evil, the thing that makes them more than just mirror images of each other. One bad deed can make a good person bad if it's bad enough, but no amount of good deeds can't make a bad person good because good deeds are the standard; they're what you were supposed to be doing the whole time. There's no "extra credit" in the testing of a person's soul. There's a sort of cosmic gravity pulling everything toward evil. As a consequence, angels are not secure in their status, but once a demon, always a demon.

>>53356847
So it's like the one drop rule?

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>>53326784
Since I am massive autismo I can't help myself but to project too much of real-life ideas on any fictional world, this includes all kinds of philosophy, including theology.
Therefore, I cannot image non-purly spiritual demon. And thefore, it is impossible to have demon that can be in any way redeemed.
Some sort of demon-worshiping race that are as close to demon as you can while still not being one? Sure. But Demon-Demon? No way.

>>53356847
More like a zero-tolerance policy, as it relates to conduct rather than ancestry

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>>53326784

From a narrative standpoint it can work if you forget alignments and demons are just people in a society that just fucking sucks

But the most likely scenario is that they're buttfuck evil and they have no reason to stop being evil, and before anyone says "i can change her, with muh dick!" i will remind you that if that the case then she would only be atracted to you and only you, she won't stop being evil, so now you have a yandere after your dick, congrats